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(The New York Times)   Asians are 14% of the city's students but win 60% of the seats to elite high schools in a competitive exam. Do other ethnic groups A) Study harder, B) Learn from Asian culture, or C) File a lawsuit?   (nytimes.com) divider line 323
    More: Obvious, Brooklyn College, ethnicity, Duane Reades, exams, atomic whirl, high schools  
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12083 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Oct 2012 at 7:37 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-28 02:26:25 PM
3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-10-28 02:26:29 PM
Fark you subby.
 
2012-10-28 02:29:07 PM
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-10-28 02:31:40 PM

lewismarktwo: Too bad testing doesn't do anything but find the people who can memorize or test well. But who needs ingenuity?


And here we have the $64,000 question: rote learning (and cheating) gives one the ability to score well on tests. If you're not able to think on your feet and come up with solutions at a moment's notice, then what the hell good is a high test score?
 
2012-10-28 02:37:29 PM
For what it's worth I just proctored a PSAT last weekend. Of the 26 kids, 1 black, 2 Indian, 3 white, 4 Latino, and the rest were Asian.
 
2012-10-28 02:38:23 PM

Vectron: The Bell Curve (1994) stated that the average IQ of African Americans was 85, Latino 89, White 103, Asian 106, and Jews 113. Asians score relatively higher on visuospatial than on verbal subtests. The few Amerindian populations who have been systematically tested, including Arctic Natives, tend to score worse on average than white populations but better on average than black populations.

The book was controversial and this may be imprecise. but it plays out rather like what one observes in the real world. Of course there are individual deviations but the book mentions that.

As this is Fark, that last sentence will be ignored and all sorts of individual deviations and annecdotes will be cited as proof the theory is incorrect.



It is commonly accepted that IQs are genetically determined (and hence the racial factor) but the only problem is that IQ does not correlate with anything. IQ does not correlate with success or academic achievement. Researchers have tested and found kids with the highest IQs and tracked their achievements through later life but found them to be no better than a group of kids with average IQ. IQ is only good for setting some sort of minimum but if someone is above that it's meaningless.

The other problem with the bell curve IQ is that while the averages of the curves are different, there is a considerable overlap of the curves. So, if took a small random sample of people of different races, there is no way to predict their IQs. You could easily randomly pick a group where the highest IQ is of an African American and the lowest a Jew. Predicting the IQ of a person by race then just becomes a game of chance.

All these mid-century IQ testing and finding the genetic super-smart people who will lead the world in the future have failed. Genius kids grow up to be very ordinary, failed people grow up to be geniuses. Einstein was a failed scientist who had to work at the patent office because no university would hire him as professor. IQ was an interesting scientific metric but turned out to be a dud for measuring things that matter.
 
2012-10-28 02:43:15 PM
metropolitician.blogs.com
 
2012-10-28 02:43:44 PM
Uchiha_Cycliste:
cdn1.hark.com
Now we are in business...
 
2012-10-28 02:48:15 PM
kendelrio:
On one of the boats I work on we have a Russian galley-hand and a Honduran BR hand. Their grasp of the English language is tenuous at best. Listening to them have a conversation is pretty awesome when you try to figure out what they are saying to each other.

I imagine it sounding somewhat like Gaff's "streetspeak" from Blade Runner.
 
2012-10-28 02:48:19 PM

sjcpjh1: For what it's worth I just proctored a PSAT last weekend. Of the 26 kids, 1 black, 2 Indian, 3 white, 4 Latino, and the rest were Asian.


And how does this reflect the demographics of the population of the area? And aren't Indians Asian? or do you mean American Indians?
 
2012-10-28 02:49:15 PM
koreabanget88.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-10-28 02:50:14 PM
iphonetoolbox.com
 
2012-10-28 02:50:42 PM
The reason they come here is because our country has relaxed its academic standards that the average Asian can get exceptional scores against our snowflakes. If you have to blame anybody, blame the heli-parents that can't accept a world with tough challenges for their children.
 
2012-10-28 02:51:11 PM
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-10-28 02:52:28 PM

Vectron: Mid_mo_mad_man: Oh course it's cultural that blacks and whites are falling behind south & east Asians. While their parents are pushing advance math and science classes white Christians are trying to dumb down education because Jesus can't stand critical thinking

LeGnome: Back in my day, when white people owned everything, fair representation was gospel. Now that the shoe's on the other foot, suddenly everyone's all bootstrappy? Now that 60% of all college students are women, will we have affirmative action for men? Nah, fark 'em. It's not about equality or fairness, it's about what gets me mine.


BeerGraduate: Let's combat racism by generalizing and being racist.

/sarcasm

Or condense it down to gentile White People are Bad. Everything they have ever done has been unfair. They were nothing but bible thumping plantation owners that sat around drinking mint julips while slaves built America. America is nothing but a racist hellhole and we should all be ashamed of our grandparents, great granparents, etc.

That's some fine edumacation you got there, Lou.



You don't beleave Christians aren't trying to dumb down science education? If you buy that I got someone ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.
/btw I'm white as wonder bread
 
2012-10-28 02:54:16 PM

cmb53208: lewismarktwo: Too bad testing doesn't do anything but find the people who can memorize or test well. But who needs ingenuity?

And here we have the $64,000 question: rote learning (and cheating) gives one the ability to score well on tests. If you're not able to think on your feet and come up with solutions at a moment's notice, then what the hell good is a high test score?


I hate this argument, as it's almost certain proof that the proponent has completely forgotten how to learn.

"Thinking on your feet" isn't something that happens without a shiat-ton of scut work repeated over and over until it becomes second nature. How many great jazz musicians have there ever been from the first dane they pickup up an instrument? None, that's how many. Getting to the point of masterful improvisation takes years of playing scales and improving technique.

Same thing with everything else. You can't analyze history or poetry without knowing a damned lot about either. You can't create architecture without a reflexive understanding of a lot of math and material science. You can't even do your taxes if you can add and subtract correctly.

Schools test rote knowledge because rote knowledge matters, and it matters most as a well-placed building block to the people who are in the process of building a framework of education: students.
 
2012-10-28 02:55:28 PM

Alleyoop: Eugenics has nothing to do with someone who refuses to improve themselves, Strawman..


dragonchild: It has absolutely nothing to do with their attitude; it has everything to do with yours. Saying "fark 'em" in a public forum doesn't make these people vanish, unless you personally intend to see that they're "vanished".... Some people have tried to "cleanse" them, with various definitions of "them", but this is a solution society generally finds distasteful, with good reason.


Still trying to play the Nazi card? I wish to reward people who care to improve themselves. This is called Positive Reinforcement. You wish to reward people who do not care to improve themselves. This is called, well, what we've got now. So, how's that working out? Going by your definition of Eugenics, race-based entitlements ARE Eugenics, which is working quite efficiently to keep minorities in the ghetto slaughtering (or "cleansing") themselves.  Society generally finds this much more "distasteful."
 
2012-10-28 03:03:55 PM

Vectron: The Bell Curve (1994) stated that the average IQ of African Americans was 85, Latino 89, White 103, Asian 106, and Jews 113. Asians score relatively higher on visuospatial than on verbal subtests. The few Amerindian populations who have been systematically tested, including Arctic Natives, tend to score worse on average than white populations but better on average than black populations.

The book was controversial and this may be imprecise. but it plays out rather like what one observes in the real world. Of course there are individual deviations but the book mentions that.

As this is Fark, that last sentence will be ignored and all sorts of individual deviations and annecdotes will be cited as proof the theory is incorrect.


I am a Jew Spic, do they average the scores between the two for me? Well, I guess since the family fled from holland, to spain, and then on to the carribean, I guess there is more hebe in the woodpile.
 
2012-10-28 03:09:28 PM

rohar: Ok I'll bite. Why are some schools in NYC held to one standard while the rest are held to a different one? The solution isn't affirmative action, the solution is to bring the low standard schools up to the "excellent" standard.


And flunk out a whole bunch of students in the process??

Putting a student in a class above their level does little to improve their learning. It does a lot towards making them flunk, though.

Admitting students to schools they don't qualify for is a matter of *PRETENDING* the problem is gone rather than addressing the actual cause of the problem.

duenor: I'll say something that few will admit, let alone support - at least those who work in education.

Low performing public schools aren't low performing because of teachers. Certainly, there are some lazy and uncaring ones, but the major reason why low performing public schools exist is because of the students.


I've been saying this for many years and it's been a quite unpopular view.

This is what needs to happen, if we want things to improve significantly (and not depend on martyred teachers who essentially sacrifice their own lives for no reward other than knowing they made a difference): kick underperforming kids out.

I'll say it again: kick underperforming kids out. I don't mean make them drop out, but establish trade schools and apprenticeship programs where these kids will fit in. Kids most often act up when they feel like things are too far above their head. Can't do any of the work, so might as well act up.


Here I disagree. Underperforming kids need classes geared to their level.

ObeliskToucher: theflatline: White men want a little china doll who well be quiet, tend the house, and not balloon into a loud mouthed elepephant with a tattoo on her calf and half his paycheck while she does nothing to contribute.

Guess how I can tell that you've never been married to one of those "quiet China dolls"?

/Quiet???
//But still hot!


Second that. Little? Check (4'10", 100#) China? Check (Shanghai born and raised) Doll? Check (More than one person has described her as one and she looks 20 years younger than she really is) Quiet? Hell, no! She's not much for housework, either--but she's determined to contribute.

RminusQ: Here's why there's a fully justified lawsuit. Admission to the elite schools is based ONLY on a single exam, and that exam has shown little to no correlation to actual performance in the elite high school.


[citation needed]

Need_MindBleach: People seem to forget that for every kid with sub-standard scores accepted due to Affirmative Action, there's a kid who's better qualified who didn't get to go to the college of their choice, or to go at all.

School admissions are a zero-sum game when you do it like that. Give someone a leg up, someone else gets burned. Why should the Asian students get punished because their parents pushed too many of them to study hard and succeed? I hope this lawsuit gets thrown right into the trash-can.


Oh, come on now. Secondary effects simply don't happen! You can change any system in a liberal fashion without any undesirable reaction!
 
2012-10-28 03:10:44 PM

Mid_mo_mad_man: Vectron: Or condense it down to gentile White People are Bad. Everything they have ever done has been unfair. They were nothing but bible thumping plantation owners that sat around drinking mint julips while slaves built America. America is nothing but a racist hellhole and we should all be ashamed of our grandparents, great granparents, etc.

That's some fine edumacation you got there, Lou.


You don't beleave Christians aren't trying to dumb down science education? If you buy that I got someone ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.
/btw I'm white as wonder bread



Some dumb ass evangelicals perhaps but not the vast majority of Christians.
If you get your life experiences through Fark, I can see why you would believe that though.
Don't always take the most extreme behavior of a group and assign it as the mainstream behavior of the entire group.
 
2012-10-28 03:11:23 PM

gerrymander: cmb53208: lewismarktwo: Too bad testing doesn't do anything but find the people who can memorize or test well. But who needs ingenuity?

And here we have the $64,000 question: rote learning (and cheating) gives one the ability to score well on tests. If you're not able to think on your feet and come up with solutions at a moment's notice, then what the hell good is a high test score?

I hate this argument, as it's almost certain proof that the proponent has completely forgotten how to learn.

"Thinking on your feet" isn't something that happens without a shiat-ton of scut work repeated over and over until it becomes second nature. How many great jazz musicians have there ever been from the first dane they pickup up an instrument? None, that's how many. Getting to the point of masterful improvisation takes years of playing scales and improving technique.

Same thing with everything else. You can't analyze history or poetry without knowing a damned lot about either. You can't create architecture without a reflexive understanding of a lot of math and material science. You can't even do your taxes if you can add and subtract correctly.

Schools test rote knowledge because rote knowledge matters, and it matters most as a well-placed building block to the people who are in the process of building a framework of education: students.


I hate this argument also. Think of it this way: The test is just another problem that you need a solution for. If you can't "think on your feet" and come up with a solution to do better on the test than other people, maybe you don't have what it takes to go to these schools.

The whole point of these schools are to take the best students and put them with excellent teachers to try and help them get the most out of their potential. Looking at the alumni list for these schools seems to prove they've been doing a pretty good job.

/Bx Sci Grad
//Mmmm, smart asain chicks
///Still waiting for our damned pool
 
2012-10-28 03:11:50 PM

theflatline: Vectron: The Bell Curve (1994) stated that the average IQ of African Americans was 85, Latino 89, White 103, Asian 106, and Jews 113. Asians score relatively higher on visuospatial than on verbal subtests. The few Amerindian populations who have been systematically tested, including Arctic Natives, tend to score worse on average than white populations but better on average than black populations.

The book was controversial and this may be imprecise. but it plays out rather like what one observes in the real world. Of course there are individual deviations but the book mentions that.

As this is Fark, that last sentence will be ignored and all sorts of individual deviations and annecdotes will be cited as proof the theory is incorrect.

I am a Jew Spic, do they average the scores between the two for me? Well, I guess since the family fled from holland, to spain, and then on to the carribean, I guess there is more hebe in the woodpile.


LOL
 
2012-10-28 03:13:34 PM
farm5.static.flickr.com
 
2012-10-28 03:15:08 PM
4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-10-28 03:15:58 PM
www.rapidescalation.com
 
2012-10-28 03:17:49 PM
How do Japanese school girls succeed if they spend so much time after school posing in their uniforms? When do they have time to study?
 
2012-10-28 03:18:36 PM
officialpsds.com
 
2012-10-28 03:19:44 PM

Vectron: How do Japanese school girls succeed if they spend so much time after school posing in their uniforms? When do they have time to study?


You don't need to study if you expect your husband to provide everything for you
 
2012-10-28 03:21:05 PM

FizixJunkee: White men marry asian women, you don't see a lot of white women marrying asian men.



I have three white female friends who married Asian guys.

Please try again later.


wtf bizarro world do you live in

/ and how can i get there?
// meh only ugly white girls gor for asians, but then again they'll go for anything since theyre ugly
 
2012-10-28 03:26:45 PM

thisiszombocom: FizixJunkee: White men marry asian women, you don't see a lot of white women marrying asian men.



I have three white female friends who married Asian guys.

Please try again later.

wtf bizarro world do you live in

/ and how can i get there?
// meh only ugly white girls gor for asians, but then again they'll go for anything since theyre ugly


That's why those girls are his friends instead of someone he banged

/ostensibly
 
2012-10-28 03:29:19 PM
www.dalje.com
 
2012-10-28 03:34:20 PM
You never hear about anti-Asian sentiment as much as you do other prejudices.



Their like the one group you can mock without being called on it.
 
2012-10-28 03:39:11 PM

Marshal805: You never hear about anti-Asian sentiment as much as you do other prejudices.



Their like the one group you can mock without being called on it.


I think everybody pretty much likes Asians. I don't really like the new Chinese arrivals. I think Japanese and white people are especially compatible. They have many fine qualities to admire.
 
2012-10-28 03:51:12 PM

jayphat: CSB

I went to Ohio State from 1999-2002 before I ran out of money and couldn't afford to go anymore. Studying engineering(i won't bother with the type). The vast majority of the kids in my class were from Asia. And they were smart as hell too. The white kids in my class along with myself you could tell came from the public education system and tried as hard as they could but just couldn't compete with the Asian kids. Now, with that in mind, there were probably 7 black students in the class. And this isn't a generalization, they paid no attention what so ever. 4 were kicked out for academic violations(copying each others work). The other 3 barely showed up to class and always complained after exams because of the scores they got on their tests. I asked one why he was there and he old me point blank "he had a free ride because he was black. He was gonna milk it til it was over". And here i thought it was to help people get ahead. Who knew, eh?


I've attended three universities and have two bachelors degrees and one masters degree. In all those years of schooling, there's only been a handful of black students in any of my physics or math courses. The very few who were in my classes tended to come from "the islands" or directly from Africa. I can't recall a single, American-born black student in any class.
 
2012-10-28 04:03:14 PM
Many Asians study constantly-12 hours a day. I bet if you compared apples to apples (whites and asians who study at the same rate) you'd find nearly matched success on tests.

Whites: study harder.
 
2012-10-28 04:11:15 PM
and the tree's were all made equal
 
2012-10-28 04:11:38 PM

FizixJunkee: I've attended three universities and have two bachelors degrees and one masters degree. In all those years of schooling, there's only been a handful of black students in any of my physics or math courses. The very few who were in my classes tended to come from "the islands" or directly from Africa. I can't recall a single, American-born black student in any class.


Come to think of it I can't recall seeing a black student in any of my computer classes. Asians everywhere, though--and that was back in the 80s.
 
2012-10-28 04:12:14 PM
Public schools are broken for many reasons... with this lawsuitlarity crap in addition to not having the funds to pay for ejumacashuning my childrens (plus all-expense trips to Disneyland for the Administrators).

That's why we send our kids to private school. In a world of winners and losers, why send my children to learn about meh whatever mediocrity?
 
2012-10-28 04:16:44 PM
CSS time: One of my students arrived here from China three years ago, speaking no English. However, he has worked incredibly hard since his arrival (while also working full-time at his uncle's business in exchange for room and board), is taking a full load of Honors classes this year and will have his pick of top universities next fall.

Three main things have made the difference for him:

First, in China, he benefited from a world-class mathematics education beginning at age 4. Unlike the American system, math is taught is such a way that kids understand it and enjoy it. They're not turned off and frustrated by it, nor are they ever allowed to label themselves as "bad at math". That happens very early here, sometimes by second or third grade.

Having that strength has allowed him to feel successful in school and earn recognition for his efforts, which makes teachers and administrators invest in his success in other areas.

Second, hard work. Crazy hard work. This student attended school, went to free after-school tutoring four days a week, worked six nights a week, then got home and studied some more. No real social life, no work-life balance, not much sleep, just sacrificing now for the reward later. I don't know many other teenagers with that kind of commitment. He understands he has an obligation to his family; unsurprisingly he's an only child and his parents, though they live in another state, check in with him daily to assure he stays on track.

Third, this kid is incredibly well-mannered and respectful, yet unafraid to ask for help. His persistence and cheerful personality have endeared him to many teachers, who are overjoyed to see a student show effort and meet deadlines. Though he's no longer my student, we got to know each other so well during his first two years here that he still refers to me as his American mom. Having those kind of mentoring relationships has enabled him to more quickly adapt to American culture, without being sucked into the negative aspects of rampant consumerism and negative media influences.

Would I expect this from my own child? No, I don't think it's realistic and perhaps to his long-term economic detriment, I want him to grow up well-rounded rather than living in a pressurized environment where academic achievement is the only thing that matters. To me, it's more important to let kids have a happy childhood, exploring and learning naturally in a somewhat self-directed manner.

On the other hand, the achievements of my "Chinese son" are beyond anything I or any of his other American teachers expected. His extraordinary proficiency with advanced mathematics isn't genetic - it's simply the result of how the schools where he grew up operate. Having that advantage, combined with an incredible work ethic, has enabled him to achieve in three years what the vast majority of American-born students never will. Rather than blame our deficiencies on others, we should be celebrating these students' achievements and learning from their example.
 
2012-10-28 04:18:56 PM
Can't we just cut the Occam's razor and say that asians > whites > blacks as far as smarts (and vice versa as far as dick size), and call it a day?
 
2012-10-28 04:20:47 PM

XYNHR: Can't we just cut the Occam's razor and say that asians > whites > blacks as far as smarts (and vice versa as far as dick size), and call it a day?


Did you come up with that on your own?

Cuz if so.... you are farking funny as hell
 
2012-10-28 04:24:10 PM

legion_of_doo: Public schools are broken for many reasons... with this lawsuitlarity crap in addition to not having the funds to pay for ejumacashuning my childrens (plus all-expense trips to Disneyland for the Administrators).

That's why we send our kids to private school. In a world of winners and losers, why send my children to learn about meh whatever mediocrity?


If you think your kids would fail in public schools and the schools are completely bottom of the barrel, that's not on the system. That's on you as parents.
 
2012-10-28 04:28:58 PM

Vectron: ChuDogg: Vectron: The Bell Curve (1994) stated that the average IQ of African Americans was 85, Latino 89, White 103, Asian 106, and Jews 113. Asians score relatively higher on visuospatial than on verbal subtests. The few Amerindian populations who have been systematically tested, including Arctic Natives, tend to score worse on average than white populations but better on average than black populations.

The book was controversial and this may be imprecise. but it plays out rather like what one observes in the real world. Of course there are individual deviations but the book mentions that.

As this is Fark, that last sentence will be ignored and all sorts of individual deviations and annecdotes will be cited as proof the theory is incorrect.

I actually happen to have exactly three friends that defy that observation.

Please try again later.


Oh, 3 whole friends. My isn't that scientific.


Can't even make a bell curve with three friends. It would be more like a triangle point or something.

Also, I'm guessing there are no white people from Mancelona, Michigan or the entire state of Arkansas represented in that study.
 
2012-10-28 04:31:03 PM

sjcpjh1: For what it's worth I just proctored a PSAT last weekend. Of the 26 kids, 1 black, 2 Indian, 3 white, 4 Latino, and the rest were Asian.


so how many asians does that make?

That's what I wanna know doughnut lady
 
2012-10-28 04:47:23 PM

DrewCurtisJr: sjcpjh1: For what it's worth I just proctored a PSAT last weekend. Of the 26 kids, 1 black, 2 Indian, 3 white, 4 Latino, and the rest were Asian.

And how does this reflect the demographics of the population of the area? And aren't Indians Asian? or do you mean American Indians?


Demographic is heavily Latino, followed by Viet. I had 5 parents show up for back to school night.
 
2012-10-28 04:49:13 PM
first of all, I'm Asian AND I went to Stuyvesant High School, so I'm getting a kick etc.

second of all, "the Shis"? I know that's the plural of their family name, but I found it funny. "Let's go find some Shiiiiiiiiisssssss and congratulate them on their son's hard work."

third of all, Asians earn their good grades. they work their butts off. it's not like the teacher is spotting all of the Asians, giving them an automatic A+, and giving everyone else C's.

fourth of all, have they seen any studies on the rate of suicide, depression, and burn out that Asian high schoolers are facing? it's disproportionately high.
 
2012-10-28 04:51:32 PM
As a white guy, the only thing worse than being academically trounced by Asians was always coming in second to them because I could not match their discipline.
 
2012-10-28 04:57:41 PM

aesirx: fourth of all, have they seen any studies on the rate of suicide, depression, and burn out that Asian high schoolers are facing? it's disproportionately high.


The Japanese have a term for this phenomenon called "karoshi," which means death caused by overwork.
 
2012-10-28 05:03:47 PM

theflatline: White men want a little china doll who well be quiet, tend the house, and not balloon into a loud mouthed elepephant with a tattoo on her calf and half his paycheck while she does nothing to contribute.


My whitey husband must be quite surprised, then.
 
2012-10-28 05:05:50 PM
Let's face it Whites and Asians just can't cut it in African-American Studies programs.
Its a shame because we're falling behind the rest of the world in that discipline.
 
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