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(MSN)   Alabama to vote on segregation. This is not a repeat from the 1960's   (news.msn.com) divider line 184
    More: Strange, Alabama Education Association, state constitution, interracial marriages, attitude change, Montgomery, United States federal courts, poll taxes, class size  
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15327 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Oct 2012 at 6:43 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-27 11:19:47 PM  

WhyteRaven74: EvilRacistNaziFascist: move to a majority black area

Your assertion mentioned visiting. I've walked through plenty of black neighborhoods without a worry in the world.


I haven't the slightest doubt that the meter- man can visit a black neighbourhood in the middle of the afternoon without worry, but the real test is whether or not he would be willing to buy a house in that very same neighbourhood and raise his family there. Why on earth do you think that houses are on offer for such laughably low prices in cities like Detroit or Camden if it were the easiest thing in the world for any ethnic outsider to settle and start a new life there? If it is racism and nothing more that makes it possible for a house in Detroit to be sold for $100 then enlightened liberals ought to take advantage of the widespread ignorance of others and to start buying up those properties and living there. Why don't they, I wonder?
 
2012-10-27 11:24:11 PM  
I'll just leave this here.
 
2012-10-27 11:33:08 PM  

Coco LaFemme: There are several states where, if we as a nation cut them loose, we wouldn't suffer for it. Alabama is one of those states. Take whatever may be of value to the government out, and then burn it to the ground.


i.imgur.com

Approves.
 
2012-10-27 11:34:36 PM  

WhyteRaven74: There are white ghettos. Living in a slum, or ghetto if you prefer, has historically not much to do with race. Indeed it wasn't that long ago a larger percentage of whites lived in them, though even now those slums are still referred to as tenements and other things that make them appear to be something other than what they were. And slums exist not because of the people living in them so much as the people who own the buildings.


You seem to be decades behind the times in referring to "tenements", most of which were gentrified or demolished long ago. At any rate, the reason why there is no such thing as a white ghetto is that poorer white people don't see themselves as being trapped in, say, a trailer court; they always have the idea that they could one day save up enough money to put down a deposit on a home in a better area. Since two- thirds of American blacks are officially counted as part of the middle- class, the same must be true of any black man living in the "ghetto"; he is not physically trapped, as the inhabitants of the real Jewish ghettoes in Europe were, but is able to take advantage of the same class mobility available to his white counterpart -- except of course that he is continually assured by "progressives" that his current socio- economic position is due to white racism, and that even any success he might achieve is ultimately an illusion given the realities of a wicked and prejudiced society. The real black ghettoes are of the mind, and that is why segregation or desegregation are of precious little importance by comparison.
 
2012-10-27 11:35:51 PM  

doyner: "In our rich history we have a tradition of ignorance. Men go to hell in degrees."


"Men go to hell in degrees."

That's an excellent statement. You have it in quotes. Who said it first?
 
2012-10-27 11:43:13 PM  
To change any state law in Alabama, you have to amend the state constitution. It is a unwieldy process, but an effective one. Nothing gets done, or changed. It may be archaic , but we have a ineffectual state government here, and I like that.
 
2012-10-27 11:49:40 PM  

ongbok: And I guess you think that slavery was good for black people because otherwise they would have been living in Africa in as savages dieing of all kinds of diseases, starvation and animal attacks. The slave owners took them out of those conditions and put a roof over their heads and fed them all for a honest days work.

This is what you believe isn't it?


I can't honestly say that I've considered the matter before in any depth, but if I were ever to bother to compare the state of recently imported black slaves in America vs. their free counterparts back in Africa I would actually try to take into account the facts of their respective conditions, rather than reflexively jumping to a pre- ordained conclusion based on self-righteous and ill- informed liberal outrage. But in any case this is irrelevant, as the explicit comparison I was making was between blacks prior to 1960 and those today. And I still maintain that the former group was on the whole better off than the latter. Just because my saying that outrages your sense of propriety doesn't mean that I'm actually wrong.
 
2012-10-27 11:59:06 PM  

kitsuneymg: Also. If you think Alabama is "dumb", please look up Huntsville and Redstone Arsenal. Basically, it's probably the highest educated city in the US. Silicon Valley might give us a run for the money, but the rest of the US is easily "dumber" than HSV.


I'm sure there are other ways to judge, but the US Census (American Community Survey) does track 'percent with BS and higher' (32.8% in the case of Huntsville, AL) and 'percent with a graduate degree' (12.8%). Not bad, mind you, but there are in fact 70 US Metropolitian/Micropolitan Areas out of 520 tracked with higher rates of both degree levels. In the Washington DC metro, for instance, it's 48%/22.9%.
 
2012-10-28 12:11:56 AM  

Lawnchair: kitsuneymg: Also. If you think Alabama is "dumb", please look up Huntsville and Redstone Arsenal. Basically, it's probably the highest educated city in the US. Silicon Valley might give us a run for the money, but the rest of the US is easily "dumber" than HSV.

I'm sure there are other ways to judge, but the US Census (American Community Survey) does track 'percent with BS and higher' (32.8% in the case of Huntsville, AL) and 'percent with a graduate degree' (12.8%). Not bad, mind you, but there are in fact 70 US Metropolitian/Micropolitan Areas out of 520 tracked with higher rates of both degree levels. In the Washington DC metro, for instance, it's 48%/22.9%.


Bachelor's degree or higher by the same survey for where I live is 56.3% with 30.2% with a graduate or professional degree, so suck it, Huntsville.
 
2012-10-28 12:12:54 AM  
/Downside: You have to have a bachelor's degree to work at McDonald's in this damn town.
 
2012-10-28 01:02:16 AM  

Coco LaFemme: There are several states where, if we as a nation cut them loose, we wouldn't suffer for it. Alabama is one of those states. Take whatever may be of value to the government out, and then burn it to the ground.


But me and my house are here :(
 
2012-10-28 01:02:50 AM  
A few weeks back I was listening to CBC Radio and they had a guy on who wrote a book suggesting that the US should let the South separate. Without the support of the North, they would either have get their acts together or fall into North Korean like dysfunction.

Alabama is doing a good job proving this guy's thesis correct.
 
2012-10-28 01:27:33 AM  

ArcadianRefugee: RedPhoenix122: CapeFearCadaver: And drunk, don't forget drunk.

This is Fark, it's assumed.

Obv. Not whiskey though.

CSB: Was cleaning out my car (it really was farking cluttered) two days ago and found an unopened bottle of Skyy.

Yay for the vodak faeries!


Whiskey fairies > Vodak fairies
 
2012-10-28 01:46:49 AM  

Electrify: A few weeks back I was listening to CBC Radio and they had a guy on who wrote a book suggesting that the US should let the South separate. Without the support of the North, they would either have get their acts together or fall into North Korean like dysfunction.

Alabama is doing a good job proving this guy's thesis correct.


If that happened you would see one of the biggest migrations north since after the Civil War.

But it will never happen because the South is where most of the easy to get to oil is, and we need that oil.
 
2012-10-28 02:22:46 AM  

EvilRacistNaziFascist: Damnhippyfreak: [people.virginia.edu image 500x75]

Damnhippyfreak: Merely enumerating what you believe to be argumentative fallacies is not the same as making an argument for or against anything: you also have to demonstrate that they are indeed fallacies by explicit reference to the facts under discussion. I contended that the life of black Americans prior to desegregation was in many points preferable to their lives today, and gave various examples to illustrate why this might be the case. In order to refute what I said, you would have to provide more numerous or more persuasive counter- arguments. Please either do so or quit making a parade of your ignorance.

Alternatively, of course, you could continue to take the easy way out and pretend that anyone who disagrees with you is a racist... although this tactic is now losing its effectiveness through overuse, it is still preferentially employed by those who find it too difficult to actually think.


Fair enough. I can state verbosely why these points of yours are somewhat shaky:


EvilRacistNaziFascist: Good for Alabama! At least they are willing to recognize that, because of the statistically well- attested fact that blacks victimize whites at a much greater rate than vice- versa, there are at least some protective benefits to be enjoyed by whites from segregation. Naturally, the presentation of this objectively neutral fact will be greeted by the usual suspects as "hate", "trolling", etc., though curiously none of those flinging around the sh*t will be able to dispute its basic accuracy.


people.virginia.edu

What you've stated here is a broken window fallacy since it only considers a very, very narrow subset of benefits, namely "protective benefits to be enjoyed by whites from segregation". The inferences you can make from such a narrow subset are equally narrow. In order to draw a wider conclusion, some consideration of many other ideas is necessary, such as blacks being able to access the same services, or the inherent benefits of an equitable society.

In the same form as your argument, you could also argue that Hitler's leadership was beneficial to Europe if you limit your consideration to, say, his push for expansion of the Autobahn. Misleading to say the least.


EvilRacistNaziFascist: You know, it's funny that it's taken as a given that the segregated 1950s were a terrible time for race relations by people who never trouble to ask themselves the simple question: how are black people in the South better off now than they were back then? Today blacks have much greater rates of family breakdown leading directly to much greater rates of crime, which in turn leads to the flight of productive citizens (of any race) from the communities they might otherwise have invested their lives and livelihoods in. The result is blighted ghettos, gangs, multi- generational families on welfare, and far less racial interaction than in 1960 owing to the simple fact that most white people are rightly fearful to even visit, let alone settle down in, areas that are mostly black.

But on the plus side, black people no longer have to sit at the back of the bus! So there's that.


people.virginia.edu

What you've posted is a post hoc fallacy since you've relied on a spurious correlation (while stating some trends of dubious veracity) without drawing any causal relationship. Correlation is not causation.

Along the same lines you could also blame what you've stated on, say, the emergence of Rock and Roll during the 50s (the Devil's music, no less).
 
2012-10-28 02:43:06 AM  

Britney Spear's Speculum: smitty04: Britney Spear's Speculum: Alabama will vote to keep the language. The spokesmen will cite "tradition" and "history"

Democrats are dying out in Alabama (George Wallace is gone), sounds like it is time to throw the whole thing out and start over again.

Yup, and I don't drive volkswaegons because Hitler started the company.


... pet peeve.
 
2012-10-28 02:59:12 AM  

taurusowner: There is no right to public education national defense. You cannot have a right to something that must exist through the effort of others. A right, by definition, is something you must be allowed to have. But that's impossible if it requires another person to fulfill it. You have the right to free speech, but not the right to be listened to, because that involves someone else. You have the right to self-defense, but not to be defended by others, because that forces effort on another to serve you. You have the right to practice your religion, but not to make others practice it too, because again, that would involve the necessary actions of someone else to be fulfilled. If your "right" requires action on the part of another person to be fulfilled, it cannot by definition be a right. Public education National defense (like public healthcare) absolutely requires someone else to act in order for it to be fulfilled. There has to be another person actively teaching protecting the public for there to be public education the US to be safe. That's why it can't be a right. What if that teacher soldier doesn't want to teach serve?.

 

So we shoud dissolve the DoD, eh?
 
2012-10-28 03:18:37 AM  

javawarlock: ArcadianRefugee: RedPhoenix122: CapeFearCadaver: And drunk, don't forget drunk.

This is Fark, it's assumed.

Obv. Not whiskey though.

CSB: Was cleaning out my car (it really was farking cluttered) two days ago and found an unopened bottle of Skyy.

Yay for the vodak faeries!

Whiskey fairies > Vodak fairies


OK, I'll ask: what's a good, reasonably priced whiskey? Every whiskey I've ever tried has made me want to punch the person who handed it to me.
 
2012-10-28 03:40:55 AM  
I lived in Alabama for about 15 years, and I think its a lot better than other places I have lived (MI,TX,TN & KY as examples). But I lived in Baldwin county.
 
2012-10-28 04:54:51 AM  
I bet there's going to be at least one asshat tea bagger that votes for segregation and will give the excuse later that "I'm not for segregation, but I felt that there should be at least one vote for our heritage", or some idiotic statement like that.
 
2012-10-28 05:18:13 AM  

Babwa Wawa: doyner: "In our rich history we have a tradition of ignorance. Men go to hell in degrees."

"Men go to hell in degrees."

That's an excellent statement. You have it in quotes. Who said it first?


It was a fake-ish quote. I've heard Baptist ministers say that several times. I have no idea who was the first.
 
2012-10-28 07:18:59 AM  

Lawnchair: kitsuneymg: Also. If you think Alabama is "dumb", please look up Huntsville and Redstone Arsenal. Basically, it's probably the highest educated city in the US. Silicon Valley might give us a run for the money, but the rest of the US is easily "dumber" than HSV.

I'm sure there are other ways to judge, but the US Census (American Community Survey) does track 'percent with BS and higher' (32.8% in the case of Huntsville, AL) and 'percent with a graduate degree' (12.8%). Not bad, mind you, but there are in fact 70 US Metropolitian/Micropolitan Areas out of 520 tracked with higher rates of both degree levels. In the Washington DC metro, for instance, it's 48%/22.9%.


In Huntsville, they tend to be real degrees. We primarily have engineers, not underwater basket weavers or political scientists. But if you want to count BS's in English, go ahead.

here's a random google search since i don't feel like tracing back to sources link
 
2012-10-28 07:24:49 AM  

thisisarepeat: (MI,TX,TN & KY as examples)


Yeah. I think I see your problem.
 
2012-10-28 07:48:36 AM  

kitsuneymg: In Huntsville, they tend to be real degrees. We primarily have engineers, not underwater basket weavers or political scientists. But if you want to count BS's in English, go ahead


Way to move those goal posts!

As someone with an engineering degree let me just say that there is more to the world than engineering. Also I know some pretty stupid people with engineering degrees, even from schools like Georgia Tech and Berkeley. I grew up in Alabama, in both rural and urban areas and can say without a doubt that there are tons of idiot mouth breathers across the state. Every state has their share of stupid people and smart people... some just have more of one group than the other. Alabama has a population of 4.8 million and most of them don't work for NASA. The fact that over 40% of the voters in 2000 voted to keep interracial marriage illegal should be a hint that a few zip codes clustered near federal government facilities aren't representative of the whole.
 
2012-10-28 08:53:22 AM  

LOTN: I'll assuming the rights to counsel and trial by jury need to be officially struck from the Bill of Rights as they require a lawyer and a group of your countrymen to be compelled to action.

Yes, the students' rights would be impinged. The government would, gasp, have to hire someone else. Or craft a law compelling members of the community to serve, similar to jury duty. We need educated youth. If we can't find someone to do it for pay, we'll have to make someone do it to avoid fines and whatnot.



As with the example of voting above, the right to counsel and a trial by jury are CONDITIONAL. You have a right to vote, IF an election is held. You have a right to counsel and a trial by jury IF you are accused of a crime by the state.
 
2012-10-28 09:38:36 AM  

Bucky Katt: Hopefully, Alabama will opt to join the 20th century. As for the 21st....


Fetus steps...
 
2012-10-28 12:53:49 PM  

skinink: "The second time won't be any easier than the first because Alabama's two largest black political groups are urging a "no" vote. They say the proposed changes would wipe out some racially charged language, but would retain segregation-era language saying there is no constitutional right to a public education in Alabama. And they've been joined by the state's main teachers' group in refusing to go along."
Is there anything a politician cannot properly fark up?


Well...

The Alabama Democratic Conference and the Alabama New South Alliance say the change, backed largely by white Republicans with a pro-business approach, looks like a "feel good" change but is not.

Amendment 4 would excise outdated language about poll taxes and separate schools that many consider racist. But the critics say the language being proposed as a substitute undermines funding for public education by reaffirming that there is no right to a public education at taxpayers' expense in Alabama.


Does that answer your question?
 
2012-10-28 01:16:36 PM  
Alabama: "You can't make us learn none!"
 
2012-10-28 02:30:17 PM  
I like all the people from California in this thread wanting to get rid of Alabama from the Union.

Look in a goddamned mirror.
 
2012-10-28 02:54:05 PM  

Old Smokie: I like all the people from California in this thread wanting to get rid of Alabama from the Union.

Look in a goddamned mirror.


Someone has to pay for Alabama.
 
2012-10-28 03:49:31 PM  

Cataholic: LOTN: I'll assuming the rights to counsel and trial by jury need to be officially struck from the Bill of Rights as they require a lawyer and a group of your countrymen to be compelled to action.

Yes, the students' rights would be impinged. The government would, gasp, have to hire someone else. Or craft a law compelling members of the community to serve, similar to jury duty. We need educated youth. If we can't find someone to do it for pay, we'll have to make someone do it to avoid fines and whatnot.


As with the example of voting above, the right to counsel and a trial by jury are CONDITIONAL. You have a right to vote, IF an election is held. You have a right to counsel and a trial by jury IF you are accused of a crime by the state.


I'm sure there was a point in your head. I wish you'd put it into your comment.

/ has no idea how the conditionality of when juries and counsel are appropriate has to do with rights not involving compelling others to service
// a right that conditionally requires others to service is still a right that compels others to service
 
2012-10-28 08:03:00 PM  

CruJones: Alabama has beautiful beaches.


SANDINISTA!!!
 
2012-10-28 09:21:29 PM  

Old Smokie: I like all the people from California in this thread wanting to get rid of Alabama from the Union.

Look in a goddamned mirror.


Yeah, but the people most likely to want California out are from states that should GTFO in a new Confederacy. That's not a coincidence.
 
2012-10-29 06:40:52 PM  
I have a theory:

"People who struggle with apostrophes tend to be Republican."
 
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