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(Daily Mail)   Out Of Sight, Out Of Mind: Uncompromising pictures from inside America's overcrowded prison system show the cramped lives lived by more than two million inmates   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 463
    More: Misc, u.s. prisons, federal prisons, state prisons, public space, prisons  
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19197 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Oct 2012 at 12:49 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-27 06:15:53 PM
mike0023: If you can't abide by your society's rules, you don't get to participate in the way your society is run. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

I'm fairly certain the Constitution doesn't say that.

Pray 4 Mojo: Uhhh... how 'bout... 'cause the Supreme Court said it is.

That good enough?


No? I don't know which decision validated that position.
 
2012-10-27 06:16:46 PM

mike0023: r1niceboy: The people who shout most loudly about living in a free society are always the ones happiest to see as many of their fellow citizens in jail.

I don't see an inconsistency. One's freedom can be impinged upon by the government (through taxes, regulations, etc.) or by criminals. Both pose a danger to freedom, both should be kept in check.


Yet it's the government (local, usually) jailing people overzealously, and the freedom lovers looking the other way. Someone does something stupid, they should be punished or forced to offer recompense. Jail is to remove people from society, partly to punish them, mostly to protect us from their criminal ways. Someone who made a mistake in pumping ten bucks worth of gas when their card didn't work, or was caught with a joint, or was busted for prostitution, aren't jailed because they're a danger to society. Too often they're jailed because a judge or DA has his eyes set on higher office, or because there's money to be made from locking them up. People get treated worse than drug traffickers because they can't afford a defense attorney.
 
2012-10-27 06:22:50 PM

r1niceboy: mike0023: r1niceboy: The people who shout most loudly about living in a free society are always the ones happiest to see as many of their fellow citizens in jail.

I don't see an inconsistency. One's freedom can be impinged upon by the government (through taxes, regulations, etc.) or by criminals. Both pose a danger to freedom, both should be kept in check.

Yet it's the government (local, usually) jailing people overzealously, and the freedom lovers looking the other way. Someone does something stupid, they should be punished or forced to offer recompense. Jail is to remove people from society, partly to punish them, mostly to protect us from their criminal ways. Someone who made a mistake in pumping ten bucks worth of gas when their card didn't work, or was caught with a joint, or was busted for prostitution, aren't jailed because they're a danger to society. Too often they're jailed because a judge or DA has his eyes set on higher office, or because there's money to be made from locking them up. People get treated worse than drug traffickers because they can't afford a defense attorney.


I basically agree with you. In my proposed solution to the prison overcrowding problem (see above) I specifically referred to thieves and violent criminals. That takes care of the prostitute and the dopehead. The person with the malfunctioning credit card would not be convicted of theft (he has a vaild defense).
 
2012-10-27 06:23:05 PM

Psycat: 2. Put in a clear and unambiguous amendment to the Constitution acknowledging every American's right to privacy and make all laws governing private, consensual behavior unconstitutional. After that, any congresscritter who tries to make a law outlawing victimless behavior is automatically guilty of treason against the Constitution and is tarred and feathered before getting life without parole.


Whatever. You can scream all you want to about how drug dealers (yes dealers, our prisons aren't full of marijuana smokers) shouldn't be in prison but they actually support drug laws until they get caught. They are the reasons for the profits. They are high risk high reward.
 
2012-10-27 06:24:28 PM

Daniels: No? I don't know which decision validated that position.


Seriously?

Let me get you started
 
2012-10-27 06:30:11 PM

Pray 4 Mojo: An ex GF testified at his trial that he beat her frequently and viciously... and even came back to her house and assaulted her after she had finally left him.


Good. Glad that asshole's going to fry. The above quoted is exactly what got my ex in trouble; he didn't like me leaving him so he busted in my front door, neighbor heard my screams about 30 minutes in and came running over with his glock.
 
2012-10-27 06:30:17 PM
To reiterate, people should not be in prison for smoking pot or any other private, consensual behavior. For white-collar crimes, I think the criminal should be put under house arrest and be forced to pay triple restitution to his victims. Real prison should be for violent offenders. The ones who behave themselves get a minimum-security lock-up. The real bad boys get life without parole in a maximum-security prison. Even then, prison should be safe, clean and the real assholes who can't control themselves even under tight supervision get thrown into solitary confinement.

Also, I don't believe in 'time off with good behavior'. Barring any extraordinary circumstances, a 10-year sentence should be 10 years. If anything, prisoners should get more time for bad behavior.

If somebody dodges a guilty verdict for say, murder, by claiming insanity, they should get life without parole in a hospital for the criminally insane. I also think that it's bullshiat for accused criminals to avoid prosecution by claiming they were incapacitated by alcohol or other drugs--they consented to taking the intoxicants in the first place. Also, if some alcoholic commits murder while in a blackout, it's probably not the first time he's blacked out and gotten violent, so he should be 100% accountable.

Also, if somebody commits murder and there's no mitigating circumstances like self-defense or mercy killing, the sentence should automatically be life without parole.

Finally, the main reason I'm opposed to the death penalty is that the criminal justice system screws up a lot. Cops and judges aren't really any more infallible than you or I. It's hard to apologize to a corpse of an innocent person who was railroaded by a farked-up judicial system. I think that life without parole is pretty brutal, much more than a quick and painless lethal injection.
 
2012-10-27 06:31:58 PM
Liberal California is one if the worst offenders. The residents don't really care though. It is easier to blame bush.
 
2012-10-27 06:32:38 PM
So? I would seriously be ok with chaining them up four to a cell; one per wall.

Let's make prison a deterrant again.
 
2012-10-27 06:35:29 PM

CapeFearCadaver: Pray 4 Mojo: An ex GF testified at his trial that he beat her frequently and viciously... and even came back to her house and assaulted her after she had finally left him.

Good. Glad that asshole's going to fry. The above quoted is exactly what got my ex in trouble; he didn't like me leaving him so he busted in my front door, neighbor heard my screams about 30 minutes in and came running over with his glock.


He's dead already. Went real peaceful. Or not... I don't really care. Dude told the judge 'execute me or I'll kill again'... so... he won the prize. I'm not a pro-death penalty type person... but I have no issues with the State killing pieces of shiat that have asked for the service. Far as I'm concerned... they should have sign up sheets posted around the prisons.
 
2012-10-27 06:35:52 PM

DrewCurtisJr: Whatever. You can scream all you want to about how drug dealers (yes dealers, our prisons aren't full of marijuana smokers) shouldn't be in prison but they actually support drug laws until they get caught. They are the reasons for the profits. They are high risk high reward.


That's what is so stupid about the War on Non-Corporate Drugs. We've created a system where uneducated cretins can make more money in an hour selling crack than some law-abiding engineer can make in a month of designing aircraft.

I do agree, though, that the drug dealers are in support of the WoD because they'd be broke without it. It's basically a lottery to them; make a ton of money selling coke in exchange for the slight probability of getting three hots and a cot if they do get caught. Basically, it's an unholy alliance between the legal drug industry, the illegal drug industry, and the privatized prison industry. If you support the never-ending WoD yourself, don't ever expect things to change...
 
2012-10-27 06:36:13 PM
He said "constitutional" not 'morally justifiable'.

States have always tradtiionally held that power, except where specifically overridden by the constitution (and even in the latter, they've fought like hell to deny certain people the right to vote).

There is no constitutional ammendment that extends franchise rights to felons, even with a broad interpreation. The 15th is closest, and it specifically refers to race and history of slavery.

The closest you could aruge that forced labor in prison makes them slaves and thus come under the 15th, but that would involve one heck fo a stretch (as well as the courts actually ruling labor in prison slavery, which would make it illegal anyway).

Of course IMNAL (and IMNAA).
 
2012-10-27 06:39:47 PM

TheHopeDiamond: So? I would seriously be ok with chaining them up four to a cell; one per wall.

Let's make prison a deterrant again.


Is this just for murderers and serial rapists, or do you advocate chaining up people in prison for being late on child support, growing a few pot plants, or being one of those few unfortunate people who actually got jail time for an overdue library book?

And, remember, the worse you make prison, the less some criminal stands to lose if he simply murders the first cop through his front door...
 
2012-10-27 06:40:38 PM

TheHopeDiamond: So? I would seriously be ok with chaining them up four to a cell; one per wall.

Let's make prison a deterrant again.


Why stop there? Bring back crucifixion!
 
2012-10-27 06:42:01 PM

Generation_D: 2wolves: Generation_D: 2wolves: USA: All the justice you can afford.

yep, just like every country anywhere ever. Don't like it? make money.

You can't create a civil society through incarceration.

Who said anything about creating a civil society? Drug users are already the ones that effed up badly enough to either kill someone over a drug deal, or get caught using because they couldn't control their own habit or use properly without getting caught or attracting attention to themselves.

I get it, you want to use, thats fine man, go ahead I have no problem with it.

But the rules say you are supremely effed if you use and get caught. So what do you do? Give in to poor impulse control, or learn to fit your vices around the current effed up legal system?

We all make our own choices.


Enjoy footing the bill, dumbass. You can hate and look down on drug users all you want, at the end of the day you pay their rent and food. If you prefer that to actually helping or rehabilitating them, more power to you.
 
2012-10-27 06:46:52 PM

Nemo's Brother: Liberal California is one if the worst offenders. The residents don't really care though. It is easier to blame bush.


One of the big problems with CA is that virtually everyone who gets out of prison is put on parole, even if they served their full sentence. Then one violation can land you back in the joint for a long time. A failed drug test, associating with known gang members, even if they are family members or your close friends, can get you in trouble.
 
2012-10-27 06:48:54 PM

Repo Man: Why stop there? Bring back crucifixion!


In Merrie Olde England, they hanged criminals for the crime of pick-pocketing. What's ironic is that there were plenty of pick-pockets working the crowds at these hangings.

If you start burning criminals at the stake for say, mugging, then the criminals have nothing to lose by beating their victims to death before stealing their wallet--if anything, they'd have one less witness to their crime.

Yes, my gut instinct is to see truly malevolent assholes like John Wayne Gacy hooked up to a torture machine and put through an immense amount of agony before being burned alive. However, I don't support such a position because you know damned well it will be used on innocent people or maybe some black guy in Texas caught with a couple of joints in his pocket...
 
2012-10-27 06:52:56 PM

Nrokreffefp: Enjoy footing the bill, dumbass. You can hate and look down on drug users all you want, at the end of the day you pay their rent and food. If you prefer that to actually helping or rehabilitating them, more power to you.


There are lots of non-incarcerating ways for criminal users to get help if they want it. They choose not to.

/disagrees with the "War on Drugs"
//disagrees with tax funded treatment
///let 'em use all they want, I don't care
////"B'b'but what if one robs you then!?!?!"
 
2012-10-27 06:58:56 PM

Nem Wan: EnderX: So let me get this straight, prison has become such a unpleasant place that we should stop sending criminals there?

Do you know that the recidivism rates for released prisoners in the United States of America is 60%

If it is so unpleasant, why do the criminals keep making the decision to commit crimes and put themselves back in such a hellish place?

In Norway, with its 21-year-max rehabilitation system, recidivism is 20%. They fix people and they stay fixed.


Can you really make the comparison?

Does Norway have the same ingrained violence-worshipping gang culture that America has? Does it have the level of poverty? Does it have the same problems with guns and drugs?

If not, you simply can't compare the two. At all.

Gang members are scum. Even left liberals won't give them a hug. So you will have a really hard time showing pictures of what are clearly hardened gang members and attempting to illicit sympathy. From anyone. Yeah, they have rights. They should be treated decently. But if they're not, people aren't going to lose sleep over it. If you want prison reform these are not the guys to be waving in front of the camera.

And no, once again these guys will not suddenly become legitimate businessmen if drugs are legalised. They'll just find some other infamy to make money from.
 
2012-10-27 06:59:31 PM

Psycat: If you support the never-ending WoD yourself, don't ever expect things to change...


Well the crime rate has been falling. I don't think people are in a big hurry to change that, in CA they are going to vote on adjusting the 3 strikes law so that it applies to violent felons.
 
2012-10-27 07:04:59 PM

Pray 4 Mojo: ... but I have no issues with the State killing pieces of shiat that have asked for the service. Far as I'm concerned... they should have sign up sheets posted around the prisons.


Agreed. There are some people who've shown they have no value to any human society. Sociopaths, for instance.
 
2012-10-27 07:05:37 PM

if_i_really_have_to: Gang members are scum. Even left liberals won't give them a hug. So you will have a really hard time showing pictures of what are clearly hardened gang members and attempting to illicit sympathy. From anyone. Yeah, they have rights. They should be treated decently. But if they're not, people aren't going to lose sleep over it. If you want prison reform these are not the guys to be waving in front of the camera.


If you hate gang members so much, why do you support a system that allows them to make billions in illicit drug money? Hell, they're probably the biggest supporters of the War on Drugs because they'd be making minimum wage without it. Their worst nightmare is that the American public is going to pull their collective heads out of their butts and legalize (or decriminalize) drugs. Doesn't it bother you that some illiterate Crackhead Willie is making more in an hour selling drugs than you make in a week working your job?


And no, once again these guys will not suddenly become legitimate businessmen if drugs are legalised. They'll just find some other infamy to make money from.


Legalize prostitution and make gambling universally legal, and what else do they have to sell? Extortion and murder-for-hire aren't exactly booming industries, and even if they were, it's hard to buy assault rifles without the huge 15000% profit margin from drugs.

So, do you support the status quo? You know, the same system that has failed for over FORTY FARKING YEARS? Well, if you do, I'm sure there's a few Mexican cartel overlords who would love to thank you for keeping them in business...
 
2012-10-27 07:06:07 PM

Psycat: Even then, prison should be safe, clean and the real assholes who can't control themselves even under tight supervision get thrown into solitary confinement.


I was with you until the last bit. If you think someone is a real asshole, you haven't seen shiat until you break their mind.

Solitary is nothing less than torture under a more innocent sounding name.
 
2012-10-27 07:08:34 PM

DrewCurtisJr: Well the crime rate has been falling. I don't think people are in a big hurry to change that, in CA they are going to vote on adjusting the 3 strikes law so that it applies to violent felons.


I'm not sure what point you're making. Are you implying that modifying the Three Strikes Law will completely undo the damage of the WoD?
 
2012-10-27 07:10:13 PM

GAT_00: Generation_D: And I'm supposed to care, why exactly

How can prison rehabilitate in conditions like that? You do realize that's what prison sentences are supposed to do, right?


The idea that prisons rehabilitate is laughable. Looking at the percent of repeaters it's obvious that rehabilitation does not occur or isn't effective. It doesn't help that most jobs require a background check and a criminal record often means the person doesn't get the job. So any training or rehabilitation that a prisoner receives is lost because they can't get a job when they get out.

It prisons are supposed to rehabilitate or even deter why do the pictures seem to reflect that most of the time is recreational or 'hang out' time. I'd think a prison rehabilitating prisoners would mean prisoners in classrooms completing their GEDs and then maybe trade training. The other big use of time should be work. Many American's work 8-10 hours per day and asking a prisoner to do the same isn't cruel. The ultra low pay jobs in place now are an issue. Pay should be minimum wage or above, 50% of the minimum wage should go to pay for room and board. If the person has children or dependents on any type of government assistance then 25% goes toward that. The remainder goes toward an annuity to help them when they are released. Most of the above costs are accounting tricks and wouldn't really cost the taxpayer anything since they already pay those costs.

The last issues is what to do with prisoners on release. High unemployment means lots of job applicants and criminals will still be bottom of the list. Sorry but I think Veterans and law-abiding citizens should get a job first.

For conditions inside prisons, what is wrong with barrack like conditions? After 10 hours of work and another 6 hours or meals/training/movement then most people will basically crash and go to bed.
 
2012-10-27 07:12:29 PM

TsukasaK: I was with you until the last bit. If you think someone is a real asshole, you haven't seen shiat until you break their mind.

Solitary is nothing less than torture under a more innocent sounding name.


I agree that solitary is brutal, but what else do you do with a violent lifer in a maximum-security prison who keeps assaulting and murdering other prisoners? Solitary is slightly more humane than tying them up Hannibal Lector style. Do you have a better idea what to do with violent lifers who can't go a single day without beating the shiat out of other prisoners?
 
2012-10-27 07:15:40 PM

GAT_00: Ah, I see the 'criminals are subhuman' crowd is already here.


Yeah. They don't usually hide from 'criminals are saints' crowd much.
 
2012-10-27 07:16:53 PM

Happy Hours: One thing nobody here has asked is why we incarcerate so many more people than any other nation in the world.

Are people in the US that much more likely to be criminals?

Does every other country not punish crime that should be punished?

Anyone?


The other countries kill more people for lesser crimes.
 
2012-10-27 07:21:58 PM

Benjimin_Dover: Happy Hours: One thing nobody here has asked is why we incarcerate so many more people than any other nation in the world.

Are people in the US that much more likely to be criminals?

Does every other country not punish crime that should be punished?

Anyone?

The other countries kill more people for lesser crimes.


Do you honestly believe that explains why Italy, Norway, Canada, Germany, France, Great Britain, and so many other western countries have lower rates of incarceration?
 
2012-10-27 07:22:32 PM

Psycat: TsukasaK: I was with you until the last bit. If you think someone is a real asshole, you haven't seen shiat until you break their mind.

Solitary is nothing less than torture under a more innocent sounding name.

I agree that solitary is brutal, but what else do you do with a violent lifer in a maximum-security prison who keeps assaulting and murdering other prisoners? Solitary is slightly more humane than tying them up Hannibal Lector style. Do you have a better idea what to do with violent lifers who can't go a single day without beating the shiat out of other prisoners?


Death Race

/problem solved.
 
2012-10-27 07:25:31 PM

Benjimin_Dover: GAT_00: Ah, I see the 'criminals are subhuman' crowd is already here.

Yeah. They don't usually hide from 'criminals are saints' crowd much.


And that's one thing that really sucks about Fark and human nature in general--they tend to fall for the black-or-white, false dichotomy sort of thinking and don't care that Reality is much more nuanced than that. As in...

criminals are saints vs. criminals are subhuman

100% liberalism is good vs. 100% conservatism is good

nature vs. nurture

absolute totalitarianism vs. absolute anarchy

Certs is a breath mint vs. Certs is a candy mint

This kind of thinking annoys me. Makes me want to knock heads together and say, "Ever consider that maybe Certs is both a breath mint AND a candy mint? Y'know, a quantum duality thingie like how a photon can be both a wave and a particle?"
 
2012-10-27 07:28:58 PM

Repo Man: Do you honestly believe that explains why Italy, Norway, Canada, Germany, France, Great Britain, and so many other western countries have lower rates of incarceration?


I agree with you, but you might want to take Italy off of that list there. Their Judicial System is infamously corrupted to the umpth degree.
 
2012-10-27 07:29:57 PM

Psycat: I'm not sure what point you're making. Are you implying that modifying the Three Strikes Law will completely undo the damage of the WoD?


I'm saying not everyone is convinced that there was been "damage", also modifying the three strikes laws will make it more reasonable to the general public given their experience with it over almost 20 years. CA has also modified it's marijuana possession laws so don't expect much more than that anytime soon.
 
2012-10-27 07:30:48 PM

Benjimin_Dover: GAT_00: Ah, I see the 'criminals are subhuman' crowd is already here.

Yeah. They don't usually hide from 'criminals are saints' crowd much.


Who's saying that criminals are saints?
 
2012-10-27 07:34:16 PM

rustypouch: Benjimin_Dover: GAT_00: Ah, I see the 'criminals are subhuman' crowd is already here.

Yeah. They don't usually hide from 'criminals are saints' crowd much.

Who's saying that criminals are saints?


People who really hate saints?
 
2012-10-27 07:40:13 PM

NFA: Seeing at all those tattooed gang members who are likely there because they're too violent to be on the streets, DID NOT elicit ANY compassion from me.

In fact my thought is that we need to streamline executions for all known violent gang members. Simply belonging to a violent gang should warrant the death penalty. These groups exist to protect their members when they sell drugs, steal, rob, burglarize, rape, murder, kidnap, hold and sell sex slaves. I say we as a nation stop being a bunch of pussies and begin to systematically wipe out this growing criminal paradigm. If you don't think it's a growing problem in the US, go live in Juarez Mexico and see what our future holds.


This person (NFA) exemplifies one of the big reasons why the war on drugs isnt going away. Propaganda works. According to NFA, selling drugs is on par with rape, murder and kidnapping.

I've met victims of rape and kidnapping, talked to surviving family members of murder victims. Never met a victim of a drug purchase.

\queue those idiots and their mental gymnastics of how selling drugs hurts people because of the secondary and tertiary effects without even considering those same secondary and tertiary effects of any other substance; ie alcohol, prescription meds, firearms, etc.
 
2012-10-27 07:42:26 PM

Lt_Ryan: I'd think a prison rehabilitating prisoners would mean prisoners in classrooms completing their GEDs and then maybe trade training.


They have those programs. The fact is a GED doesn't carry much weight in today's job market, and trade training, you are going to have to compete with 50 others for the same job, and those people don't have criminal records. We send job overseas and tolerate and encourage illegal immigration and then we wonder why we can't employ ex-cons at entry level, low skill jobs.

I'm not delusional and think that every ex-con will turn straight when given the opportunity, in fact in know it is not the case, but there are some people who want to go straight but when they can't get a job what do we expect.
 
2012-10-27 07:42:30 PM
I mostly stayed clear of the threads about waterboarding, and torture in general a few years back, but I'm sure the Venn diagram for the supporters of torture, and the "The way to solve the crime problem is to get tougher" is mostly overlapped. The unstated assumption in both cases is that these things work, and the only thing stopping us are liberals that love terrorists/criminals. But the evidence against torture is that every expert will tell you that is does not work (at least, to gather reliable intelligence - it's great if you just love sadism). And in the case of crime and punishment, the experts in the relevant fields of study will say the same about extremely punitive sentences and conditions. Not only are these things wrong morally, they don't even achieve the stated goal! But people love vengeance, and will support anything that gives them their revenge fix on even the slightest to outright non existent evidence.

After WW-1, a very punitive treaty against Germany helped create the conditions that led to WW-2. The urge to "Teach Germany a lesson" ended up creating another global conflagration. Thankfully, that lesson was learned by the close of WW-2, and the axis nations were helped to rebuild rather than punished. I guess we have a way to go to apply that lesson to individuals.
 
2012-10-27 07:42:41 PM

James F. Campbell: PC LOAD LETTER: I truly don't farking care. Don't like it? Don't be a crim.

I had you marked as a liberal. I'm disappointed to discover you're actually a law-worshipping authoritarian.


I am not a liberal. I am mostly anti-conservative. This is where "mostly" lives.
 
2012-10-27 07:44:49 PM

Pray 4 Mojo: Death Race

/problem solved.


Yup, a totally practical solution that will be implemented any day now. Like my plan to decide presidential elections by thumb wrestling...
 
2012-10-27 07:46:14 PM

GAT_00: Ah, I see the 'criminals are subhuman' crowd is already here.


Apparently Tattooing is the industry to be in, if (a) you're in prison and (b) you need extra cigarette money

Seriously, don't start nothing won't be nothing. If you can't do the time don't do the crime. Prison is supposed to make you hate it so much you'll walk the straight and narrow to keep from going back.
 
2012-10-27 07:50:32 PM

Repo Man: And in the case of crime and punishment, the experts in the relevant fields of study will say the same about extremely punitive sentences and conditions. Not only are these things wrong morally, they don't even achieve the stated goal!


Don't achieve the stated goal, how do you figure. One of the goals of incarceration is keep society safe, a very small % of people are responsible for most of the violent crime. Keep these individuals locked up longer keeps these career criminals from victimizing more people.
 
2012-10-27 07:57:23 PM

Psycat: Benjimin_Dover: GAT_00: Ah, I see the 'criminals are subhuman' crowd is already here.

Yeah. They don't usually hide from 'criminals are saints' crowd much.

And that's one thing that really sucks about Fark and human nature in general--they tend to fall for the black-or-white, false dichotomy sort of thinking and don't care that Reality is much more nuanced than that. As in...

criminals are saints vs. criminals are subhuman

100% liberalism is good vs. 100% conservatism is good

nature vs. nurture

absolute totalitarianism vs. absolute anarchy

Certs is a breath mint vs. Certs is a candy mint

This kind of thinking annoys me. Makes me want to knock heads together and say, "Ever consider that maybe Certs is both a breath mint AND a candy mint? Y'know, a quantum duality thingie like how a photon can be both a wave and a particle?"


I prefer life savers wint-o- green they spark in the dark
 
2012-10-27 08:01:32 PM
Well...good to see there aren't many people who have ever had to suffer the loss of a loved one to the prison system or been there themselves. God forbid you ever get caught with your pants down and can't afford the cost of an attorney; convictions are mostly about how much $ you're able to throw at the situation to make it go away. It's not fair and it can be excessive. And behind every inmate is a family that loves and misses that person that are suffering as well.

Not everyone in jail is in there for a violent crime; there are plenty of victimless offenders just serving time. And it seems like my loved one is in the actual small minority in there for a marijuana conviction but the fact that it even still happens like that anymore is ridiculous; not only did they convict him, they got him evicted by threatening prosecution on the landlord if he didn't comply with the eviction. Seriously? That's supposed to be justice?

I saw how easily they have convicted loved ones of mine for minor offenses and railroaded them, and I can only imagine how much worse that really is for people who aren't white. "Justice" is not distributed equally enough to warrant punishing EVERYONE as if they were all rapists, murderers, and child molesters.
 
2012-10-27 08:04:11 PM

NFA: Seeing at all those tattooed gang members who are likely there because they're too violent to be on the streets, DID NOT elicit ANY compassion from me.

In fact my thought is that we need to streamline executions for all known violent gang members. Simply belonging to a violent gang should warrant the death penalty. These groups exist to protect their members when they sell drugs, steal, rob, burglarize, rape, murder, kidnap, hold and sell sex slaves. I say we as a nation stop being a bunch of pussies and begin to systematically wipe out this growing criminal paradigm. If you don't think it's a growing problem in the US, go live in Juarez Mexico and see what our future holds.


I've been through basic and I've worked in prison. That guy is an asshole troll. First, basic lasts 8 weeks, prison tends to be several years. Second, no one tries to rape you in basic. Third, you are not under the threat of physical violence in basic. Fourth, you receive a pay check while in basic. Fifth, at any point you can leave basic under a "failure to adapt" clause. Sixth, you are not restricted to your barracks 23 hours a day. Seventh, you don't get m-16s in prison. Eighth, and most important of all, basic is filled with activities from the time you wake up until lights out. The mind-numbing boredom of prison is one of the key factors of it's punishment. As I said, that guy is a dick and really just wants to be a cockbag. He's from texas, so I guess I'm stating the obvious.
 
2012-10-27 08:12:34 PM

DrewCurtisJr: Repo Man: And in the case of crime and punishment, the experts in the relevant fields of study will say the same about extremely punitive sentences and conditions. Not only are these things wrong morally, they don't even achieve the stated goal!

Don't achieve the stated goal, how do you figure. One of the goals of incarceration is keep society safe, a very small % of people are responsible for most of the violent crime. Keep these individuals locked up longer keeps these career criminals from victimizing more people.


In case you haven't noticed, this thread is full of people advocating all sorts of torture, capital punishments, etc. Mandatory minimums, very popular in the 80's, reflected the popularity of this sort of thinking. Rather than making drug dealing go away, sending every two bit drug dealer to do hard time resulted in a much worse class of criminals. Prison culture became the culture of the street. In general, they went in bad, and they came out worse.

Our prisons aren't overcrowded because we are keeping the incorrigible away from the rest of us.
 
2012-10-27 08:25:54 PM
After reading through much of the thread it seems clear to me that one side of the issue is represented by logic, facts and rationale and the other side is arguing from a position of emotion (essentially fear).

And if people have learned anything from the war on drugs and terrorism it's that emotion trumps logic every time. The rational people are not getting involved enough.

\All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
 
2012-10-27 08:26:54 PM

Repo Man: Our prisons aren't overcrowded because we are keeping the incorrigible away from the rest of us.


Again, the crime rates are falling, keeping criminals off the streets. Almost every expert who tries to explain the drop in the crime rate gives longer sentencing credit, the only difference is how much. Anyone who finds the elusive combination of keeping people out of prison and turning prisoners into productive citizens deserves a national holiday, but there are no easy answers or we would be doing it.
 
2012-10-27 08:31:37 PM

Repo Man: DrewCurtisJr: Repo Man: And in the case of crime and punishment, the experts in the relevant fields of study will say the same about extremely punitive sentences and conditions. Not only are these things wrong morally, they don't even achieve the stated goal!

Don't achieve the stated goal, how do you figure. One of the goals of incarceration is keep society safe, a very small % of people are responsible for most of the violent crime. Keep these individuals locked up longer keeps these career criminals from victimizing more people.

In case you haven't noticed, this thread is full of people advocating all sorts of torture, capital punishments, etc. Mandatory minimums, very popular in the 80's, reflected the popularity of this sort of thinking. Rather than making drug dealing go away, sending every two bit drug dealer to do hard time resulted in a much worse class of criminals. Prison culture became the culture of the street. In general, they went in bad, and they came out worse.

Our prisons aren't overcrowded because we are keeping the incorrigible away from the rest of us.


Prison should be awful enough that anyone that leaves it never wants to come back... while also providing opportunity to those interested to educate and better themselves for a better shot at life when they are released. Prison can be punishment, deterrent and rehabilitative all at the same time. And that is exactly what he have now.

Our prisons are overcrowded because we have an entire industry around the "war on drugs" that, if ended, would damage a lot of micro and macro economies... and not just in this country.

Legalize, control and tax drugs... and leave the prisons for those that fark with the lives and property of law abiding citizens. My sympathy meter for those convicts remains at 0... and I see no reason why it should rise.
 
2012-10-27 08:31:55 PM

seapig: Not everyone in jail is in there for a violent crime; there are plenty of victimless offenders just serving time. And it seems like my loved one is in the actual small minority in there for a marijuana conviction but the fact that it even still happens like that anymore is ridiculous; not only did they convict him, they got him evicted by threatening prosecution on the landlord if he didn't comply with the eviction. Seriously? That's supposed to be justice?


If I were the King of the World, every jackass who thinks people should be in prison for non-violent offenses would themselves be given ten years, which is about how long it would take for these knuckleheads to get a clue.

The real driving force behind many of the witch hunts in medieval Europe was the Catholic Church trying to take away property from the growing middle class. That's why so many of those burned at the stake were of the new merchant class--there's not much to steal from peasants.

The real reason behind locking people up for growing a few pot plants has NOTHING to do with public health and everything to do with guaranteeing profits for Big Pharma, Big Tobacco, Big Booze, the privatized prison industry, the DEA, the prison guard unions and--most of all--the drug kingpins themselves who never get caught and make billions off the WoD. It's the low-level dealers, many of whom are just trying to pay the rent by selling an occasional sack, who suffer the brunt of our stupid WoD.


I saw how easily they have convicted loved ones of mine for minor offenses and railroaded them, and I can only imagine how much worse that really is for people who aren't white. "Justice" is not distributed equally enough to warrant punishing EVERYONE as if they were all rapists, murderers, and child molesters.


The main reason I'm against capital punishment is that far too many innocent people get railroaded by a corrupt legal system. I think that we should throw a lot more corrupt judges and cops in prison--they should be held to much higher standards than the rest of us because they have so damned much power. I really don't have faith in any system of Earthly justice--I personally knew some POS who literally got away with murdering a little girl, and there were at least two times that some black dude in Texas got a brutally heavy punishment (20+ years) for simple pot possession. I would absolutely love it if there were such a thing as karma or if there were a Judgment Day where people were actually judged for their behavior and not their church affiliation...
 
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