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(Daily Mail)   Out Of Sight, Out Of Mind: Uncompromising pictures from inside America's overcrowded prison system show the cramped lives lived by more than two million inmates   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 463
    More: Misc, u.s. prisons, federal prisons, state prisons, public space, prisons  
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19216 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Oct 2012 at 12:49 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-27 08:20:09 AM  
Looks about the same as my barracks in basic training, except they have more freedoms apparently. Do they deserve better than soldiers in basic training / boot camp?

/not subby
 
2012-10-27 08:21:06 AM  

me texan: Do they deserve better than soldiers in basic training / boot camp?


This reeks of "Waterboarding isn't torture because SEALS are waterboarded as part of their training."
 
2012-10-27 08:33:01 AM  
I truly don't farking care. Don't like it? Don't be a crim.
 
2012-10-27 08:43:15 AM  

PC LOAD LETTER: I truly don't farking care. Don't like it? Don't be a crim.


www.weirdotoys.com
 
2012-10-27 08:59:39 AM  
Clearly the only solution is to double down on the war on drugs.
 
2012-10-27 09:06:49 AM  

kronicfeld: me texan: Do they deserve better than soldiers in basic training / boot camp?

This reeks of "Waterboarding isn't torture because SEALS are waterboarded as part of their training."


The article, as was my point is about living conditions. Nice job obfuscating the point by essentially Godwinning the discussion.

Their living conditions appear to be on par with NORMAL military life for soldiers in basic training and I have no problem with that. 

/Lighten up, Francis
 
2012-10-27 09:40:28 AM  
Those rows and rows of bunk beds look pretty powder-keggy to me.
 
2012-10-27 09:48:57 AM  

me texan: Looks about the same as my barracks in basic training, except they have more freedoms apparently. Do they deserve better than soldiers in basic training / boot camp?

/not subby


Basic training lasts 6-8 weeks? It's designed to instill discipline and whip new recruits to the military into shape and there's little fear that the person in the next bunk is going to rape, stab or just plain beat the shiat out of you for whatever reason or even no reason.

And last I checked our military is still all volunteer.

It would be interesting to get the perspective of people who had both been through boot camp and a prison like this. I've not been to either one, but if you gave me a choice of a prison as pictured or boot camp, I think I'd take boot camp.
 
NFA [TotalFark]
2012-10-27 09:53:08 AM  
Seeing at all those tattooed gang members who are likely there because they're too violent to be on the streets, DID NOT elicit ANY compassion from me.

In fact my thought is that we need to streamline executions for all known violent gang members. Simply belonging to a violent gang should warrant the death penalty. These groups exist to protect their members when they sell drugs, steal, rob, burglarize, rape, murder, kidnap, hold and sell sex slaves. I say we as a nation stop being a bunch of pussies and begin to systematically wipe out this growing criminal paradigm. If you don't think it's a growing problem in the US, go live in Juarez Mexico and see what our future holds.
 
2012-10-27 09:57:07 AM  

Happy Hours: And last I checked our military is still all volunteer.


Last I checked, so is the decision to rob, stab and kill people.
 
2012-10-27 10:15:42 AM  

me texan: Happy Hours: And last I checked our military is still all volunteer.

Last I checked, so is the decision to rob, stab and kill people.


Exactly, fark em.
 
2012-10-27 10:25:31 AM  
Ugh.

This reminds me of a moment from last weekend when a few of us women from church were talking to another member (who is an emigrant from Kenya). She was describing the prison conditions, which were appalling, and then a dyed-in-the-wool Republican spoke up and said "Is that a deterrent?"

The poor woman had to fumble to explain to this slightly hard-of-hearing soul that the law enforcement office is corrupt through and through, which I eventually summarized for her as "There's not much connection between who's actually guilty and who goes to jail."
 
2012-10-27 10:47:26 AM  

Happy Hours: And last I checked our military is still all volunteer.


me texan: Last I checked, so is the decision to rob, stab and kill people.


Aaaaaand we're done here.
 
2012-10-27 10:51:53 AM  

me texan: Happy Hours: And last I checked our military is still all volunteer.

Last I checked, so is the decision to rob, stab and kill people.


Lol, that's funny how you think most people are in jail for violent crimes.
 
2012-10-27 10:55:45 AM  
USA: All the justice you can afford.
 
2012-10-27 10:57:19 AM  

Happy Hours: It would be interesting to get the perspective of people who had both been through boot camp and a prison like this. I've not been to either one, but if you gave me a choice of a prison as pictured or boot camp, I think I'd take boot camp.


On that Lockdown show, when they did Sheriff Joe's prison, I vaguely remember that one of the inmates they interviewed from Tent City had served in Iraq. I believe he said it was tremendously worse in prison.
 
2012-10-27 11:07:12 AM  
Ah, I see the 'criminals are subhuman' crowd is already here.
 
2012-10-27 11:09:23 AM  
That's exactly what the tanks looked like in Harris County. I was in medical which was a tank that had 8 bunks per cell and there was 7 cells. And there was usually 4 extra people on the floor in the cells, not to mention all the people in the day room and near the showers. At one point, it was so bad you couldn't walk to the tables without stepping over someone. People were signing for their time as fast as they could just so they could get transferred to state or TDCJ. It was just a tightly packed warehouse.

Once I got moved to the trustee tank, things drastically improved. Lots more room and a few perks, plus we got to work outside mowing the grass all over Houston. I'm willing to bet a lot of those pictures were Gen Pop, probably 2 years or less. When I got moved to TDCJ, got a job at the library as soon as possible just so I wouldn't be in that mess. It was just a big warehouse type room but we had a little personal area around our beds separated with 3 foot high metal walls but it was a luxury in there.

I can't tell you what can be done about it except decriminalizing a lot of drugs or at least lowering the punishment. Most of the people in there don't mind at all that they're locked up. Especially if they're a somebody in there. I saw so many people get let out and be right back within a few months. And talking to a lot of inmates, they either think it's just great that they don't have to worry about bills or food and the ones that want to try to fly right go back to the same situation that got them there to begin with. When I was let out, I cut off all contact with old friends and moved. It was extremely hard but I did it, and that was 3 years ago. Halfway houses help a little but getting back into society after doing that is a lot harder than people think. It's a whole different world in there but I'm sure people that have served in the military know what I'm talking about, since I was locked up with a lot of military guys who told me it was about the same except the military had more things for them to do. It's a really complicated situation that is going to take a fix on multiple levels. Guess we should look at how Europe and Japan do things, much like they did us in the 1900's.
 
2012-10-27 11:17:16 AM  
And I'm supposed to care, why exactly
 
2012-10-27 11:17:53 AM  

2wolves: USA: All the justice you can afford.


yep, just like every country anywhere ever. Don't like it? make money.
 
2012-10-27 11:19:55 AM  

alwaysjaded: Halfway houses help a little but getting back into society after doing that is a lot harder than people think.


I cant begin to imagine how hard it is to get back into society. That being said, it sounds like you're moving in the right direction and I applaud you for it.

/agree with your points about decriminalization. War on Drugs has been a waste of time and money.
 
2012-10-27 11:20:31 AM  

Generation_D: And I'm supposed to care, why exactly


How can prison rehabilitate in conditions like that? You do realize that's what prison sentences are supposed to do, right?
 
2012-10-27 11:20:50 AM  
where's the photo gallery of the lives of their victims?

/it'll be nice when Romney takes office and our tax dollars will start supporting those who are working to enhance and better their lives.
 
2012-10-27 11:22:11 AM  

alwaysjaded: That's exactly what the tanks looked like in Harris County. I was in medical which was a tank that had 8 bunks per cell and there was 7 cells. And there was usually 4 extra people on the floor in the cells, not to mention all the people in the day room and near the showers. At one point, it was so bad you couldn't walk to the tables without stepping over someone. People were signing for their time as fast as they could just so they could get transferred to state or TDCJ. It was just a tightly packed warehouse.

Once I got moved to the trustee tank, things drastically improved. Lots more room and a few perks, plus we got to work outside mowing the grass all over Houston. I'm willing to bet a lot of those pictures were Gen Pop, probably 2 years or less. When I got moved to TDCJ, got a job at the library as soon as possible just so I wouldn't be in that mess. It was just a big warehouse type room but we had a little personal area around our beds separated with 3 foot high metal walls but it was a luxury in there.

I can't tell you what can be done about it except decriminalizing a lot of drugs or at least lowering the punishment. Most of the people in there don't mind at all that they're locked up. Especially if they're a somebody in there. I saw so many people get let out and be right back within a few months. And talking to a lot of inmates, they either think it's just great that they don't have to worry about bills or food and the ones that want to try to fly right go back to the same situation that got them there to begin with. When I was let out, I cut off all contact with old friends and moved. It was extremely hard but I did it, and that was 3 years ago. Halfway houses help a little but getting back into society after doing that is a lot harder than people think. It's a whole different world in there but I'm sure people that have served in the military know what I'm talking about, since I was locked up with a lot of military guys who told me it was about the sam ...


Or, we can keep being America and doing things our own way. You can't vote any more, so you can't help change the system you know so much about. On the other hand, more than half of the population where you're from elects Republicans fairly often, and all they're interested in is making sure the prison population is kept high enough so their investments in prison contractors keep making money.

Til the voting public changes that, you're pretty much out of luck on "reform."

I doubt America will look anywhere for help, look at how we did TSA. Europe already had working systems, yet we went out and invented our own, which wound up being worse and less secure.

And got Chertoff paid, since his company owned the scanner contract for airports.

Crony Capitalism. When voting just isn't enough.

Also: Don't get arrested using drugs. Tough thing for some people. Society makes rules, and they're so unfair sometimes.
 
2012-10-27 11:23:54 AM  
i963.photobucket.com
 
2012-10-27 11:24:43 AM  

calbert: where's the photo gallery of the lives of their victims?

/it'll be nice when Romney takes office and our tax dollars will start supporting those who are working to enhance and better their lives.


Wouldn't hold your breath on the Romney thing there, tea bagger.

Nice concern on the victims though.
 
2012-10-27 11:34:10 AM  

me texan:

I cant begin to imagine how hard it is to get back into society. That being said, it sounds like you're moving in the right direction and I applaud you for it.

/agree with your points about decriminalization. War on Drugs has been a waste of time and money.


Thanks. I had one thing going for me. My lawyer worked out a deal where I would do my time but wouldn't have a felony on my record. You got a felony on your record, game over. Can't do much of anything with one. When the lawyer was telling me about the offer, it was 4 months county or a year and 6 months of TDCJ plus shock probation which was 3 years of court every Monday, P.O. every Wednesday and groups 5 days a week and random drug tests 6 out of 7 days of the week. Everyone in the holding tank heard the deal and were all screaming at me to take the county time. I was about to sign and stopped and asked them all how bad had a felony on their record messed their lives up. Every single one of them said they were ruined. I signed for TDCJ. It was ABSOLUTE HELL staying in compliance but I did it.

Another point I wanted to add, there's another problem. Your court appointed lawyer is usually some guy fresh out of law school who has 8 other cases to work on just for that day. Throw in you've been living like cattle and a lawyer who just wants to close your file tells you to sign for probation and you get out that day. I saw a whole lot of people doing that who were destined to fail cause they were planning on getting high 30 minutes after being released.
 
2012-10-27 11:35:50 AM  
One thing nobody here has asked is why we incarcerate so many more people than any other nation in the world.

Are people in the US that much more likely to be criminals?

Does every other country not punish crime that should be punished?

Anyone?
 
2012-10-27 11:38:47 AM  
And meanwhile I'm listening to Victor Conte (Barry Bonds/Steroids) talk about the prison he was in. It was basically an athletic club. Everyone was playing tennis, basketball, even billiards. There were ZERO fences. For Christmas, inmates would walk out to the highway and their family would pick them up. Drugs were for sale. The female corrections officers made $30,000 a month as prostitutes.
 
2012-10-27 11:39:02 AM  

Generation_D: : Or, we can keep being America and doing things our own way. You can't vote any more, so you can't help change the system you know so much about. On the other hand, more than half of the population where you're from elects Republicans fairly often, and all they're interested in is making sure the prison population is kept high enough so their investments in prison contractors keep making money.

Til the voting public changes that, you're pretty much out of luck on "reform."

I doubt America will look anywhere for help, look at how we did TSA. Europe already had working systems, yet we went out and invented our own, which wound up being worse and less secure.

And got Chertoff paid, since his company owned the scanner contract for airports.

Crony Capitalism. When voting just isn't enough.

Also: Don't get arrested using drugs. Tough thing for some people. Society makes rules, and they're so unfair sometimes.

I don't disagree with none of that. If the cities could combat the vast areas of small towns who vote for idiots, we would be better off. Our elections are usually pretty close. And yes, I've had zero interactions with cops since I stopped breaking the law. It was a hard lesson but I fought the law and the law won. Never again.

 
2012-10-27 11:45:09 AM  
alwaysjaded

Consult Europe and Japan? But... but... that would involve acknowledging that America is not the greatest at everything we do!

/glad to hear you're doing better
 
2012-10-27 12:10:16 PM  
you mean it's not like it is on TV?

img2-3.timeinc.net
 
2012-10-27 12:11:51 PM  

coco ebert: alwaysjaded

Consult Europe and Japan? But... but... that would involve acknowledging that America is not the greatest at everything we do!

/glad to hear you're doing better


I sinerely believe that America will correct itself once there's a changing of the guard in our leadership. We're still a very young country compared to the rest of the world and we're going to have some growing pains. I always get amused by how our friends across the pond are so quick to tell us why we suck. Yea, like the countries over there never had any dark times. They've had longer to deal with them. Of course, we should learn from our elders but this country needs to stop thinking in the past. I swear these days, America is like a washed up ex-supermodel.

/ and thank you for the kind words.
 
2012-10-27 12:12:03 PM  

Generation_D: Also: Don't get arrested using drugs. Tough thing for some people. Society makes rules, and they're so unfair sometimes.


And I'm going to ask again: how does our current prison system reform? Our prison system doesn't work, and I know that by one simple fact: the single greatest predictor of crime is past incarceration. If you go to prison you are more likely to commit a crime than you were before.

How is that good?
 
2012-10-27 12:14:38 PM  

me texan: alwaysjaded: Halfway houses help a little but getting back into society after doing that is a lot harder than people think.

I cant begin to imagine how hard it is to get back into society. That being said, it sounds like you're moving in the right direction and I applaud you for it.

/agree with your points about decriminalization. War on Drugs has been a waste of time and money.


Au contraire. Its made the following categories quite a lot of money:

1) Police departments -- foreiture and siezure laws
2) Trial lawyers -- getting rich boys and girls out of jail
3) Prison industry -- Go to keep supply of prisoners up, got to build more private prisons. America fark yeah.
4) Medical industry -- make sure the more fun illegal drugs can't compete on a level playing field with the crappy modern drugs.
5) Security industry -- all those neat cop toys used to go after drug dealers -- drones, house sensors, flyovers in pot growing country, weapons and armored cars
6) Government. The DEA and its ever expanding mission and head count
7) Government 2 -- idiot politicians running on law and order platforms, promising to clean up crime which usually means go after people using drugs, or people selling drugs that wear colorful clothing and frighten people
8) The drug sellers themselves. If you don't die, you make bank, at least the ones do that run the organizations. These drug orgs pay bribes to cops and law enforcement. It is a fact.
9) Gun lobby / weapons industry: With drug crime, or the fear of it, rampant, got to make sure there's lots of gun sales all around, to worried homeowners, to conceal and carry vigilante dumbfarks like Zimmerman, to all the drug sellers themselves. Guns and ammo profits.
10) Alcohol industry. No legal competition from Pot or other low-risk drug taking.
11) Trial lawyers II: drunk driving edition. If all those drunk drivers were smoking weed instead, they would be home eating cheetos rather than out wrapping their car around a tree, being aggressive, and making stupid choices when drunk.
12) Sports industry. Do you honestly think a lot of pot smokers would give a crap about professional sports like drinkers do?
13) Gambling industry. Without drunks, who's gonna bet and lose millions a year?
14) Government III: Black ops / Black budget / CIA funding for drug ops. Billions have been sent down this rat hole. "Propping up the governments of Columbia and Peru."


So you see, illegal drugs are tightly woven into America's societal fabric. Just making them legal will never happen, at least not over night. Its been 40 years since quite a few of us have been saying the "War on Drugs" or what came before it were idiotic, wrongheaded, corrupt policies.

And yet...
 
2012-10-27 12:14:59 PM  

alwaysjaded: coco ebert: alwaysjaded

Consult Europe and Japan? But... but... that would involve acknowledging that America is not the greatest at everything we do!

/glad to hear you're doing better

I sinerely believe that America will correct itself once there's a changing of the guard in our leadership. We're still a very young country compared to the rest of the world and we're going to have some growing pains. I always get amused by how our friends across the pond are so quick to tell us why we suck. Yea, like the countries over there never had any dark times. They've had longer to deal with them. Of course, we should learn from our elders but this country needs to stop thinking in the past. I swear these days, America is like a washed up ex-supermodel.

/ and thank you for the kind words.


Well, you're kind of assuming that every country goes through similar phases towards a pinnacle of development, but that's not really true. Every society has its own trajectory. There's no guarantee that the U.S. will keep increasing its wealth and power simply because we're young.
 
2012-10-27 12:16:21 PM  

Generation_D: 2wolves: USA: All the justice you can afford.

yep, just like every country anywhere ever. Don't like it? make money.


You can't create a civil society through incarceration.
 
2012-10-27 12:24:01 PM  
Oh, left out:

15) Medical industry II: All the phony rehab crap, from psychology to 12 steps to addiction studies. With drugs legal, there would be no court-mandated rehab.
16) Medical industry III: If users can get their hands on clean and well made drugs of choice, they quit OD'ing on crap. So less risk to the user, and less chance of an accidental death due to a dosage being wildly off.


I'm sure there's more. Point is, you can't just legalize drugs. Washington State is going to try, we're voting on Marijuana legalization with many strings attached and in many ways a crappy law. And it had to be a crappy law with strings attached or law enforcement would have never signed off on it. So you see whats happening here, rather than the "common sense" legalization argument, we're having to do things in stages, that takes years if not decades. Its already been decades. A whole bunch of us wanted legalization as far back as the 70s. Then what happened, Ronald farking Reagan happened, and funding drug wars in central and south america. Set the drug lords up great, kept the cheap cocaine flowing north, Miami Vice was a top 10 hit show. Oh yeah -

17) Entertainment industry. Who will be the villain in all those great movies if you get rid of drug cartels because drugs are now legal?? Don't think Hollywood isn't aware of where they make their money. Ready made story trope: Drug dealer / gang.
 
2012-10-27 12:25:49 PM  

2wolves: Generation_D: 2wolves: USA: All the justice you can afford.

yep, just like every country anywhere ever. Don't like it? make money.

You can't create a civil society through incarceration.


Who said anything about creating a civil society? Drug users are already the ones that effed up badly enough to either kill someone over a drug deal, or get caught using because they couldn't control their own habit or use properly without getting caught or attracting attention to themselves.

I get it, you want to use, thats fine man, go ahead I have no problem with it.

But the rules say you are supremely effed if you use and get caught. So what do you do? Give in to poor impulse control, or learn to fit your vices around the current effed up legal system?

We all make our own choices.
 
2012-10-27 12:27:09 PM  
One last thought on that.

What if everyone just quit using? Not nancy reagan just say no, but eff you current system. Quit buying drugs, quit drinking, quit using medical products you have a say in using.

Send the entire messed up substance seller empire a nice message, the current system in America is effed up badly, so the hell with all of you, we're all going to go straight edge from now on.

Except coffee. Jesus H I'd go to prison before giving up coffee.
 
2012-10-27 12:30:10 PM  

Happy Hours: One thing nobody here has asked is why we incarcerate so many more people than any other nation in the world.

Are people in the US that much more likely to be criminals?


Because there's money to be made in locking people up for any little thing someone can think of.
 
2012-10-27 12:38:27 PM  

coco ebert:

Well, you're kind of assuming that every country goes through similar phases towards a pinnacle of development, but that's not really true. Every society has its own trajectory. There's no guarantee that the U.S. will keep increasing its wealth and power simply because we're young.


I should have been a little bit clearer. I was mainly talking about the moral issues we're facing and the dying out of all the completely off the rails people we're seeing today. I didn't mean wealth and power cause that is always up in the air since no one can predict the future.
 
2012-10-27 12:43:09 PM  

Generation_D: 2wolves: Generation_D: 2wolves: USA: All the justice you can afford.

yep, just like every country anywhere ever. Don't like it? make money.

You can't create a civil society through incarceration.

Who said anything about creating a civil society? Drug users are already the ones that effed up badly enough to either kill someone over a drug deal, or get caught using because they couldn't control their own habit or use properly without getting caught or attracting attention to themselves.

I get it, you want to use, thats fine man, go ahead I have no problem with it.

But the rules say you are supremely effed if you use and get caught. So what do you do? Give in to poor impulse control, or learn to fit your vices around the current effed up legal system?

We all make our own choices.


Not going to lose my clearance.

My point still stands.
 
2012-10-27 12:54:19 PM  
img4-1.coastalliving.timeinc.net

They should nice-up the place like Martha Stewart did.
 
2012-10-27 12:54:54 PM  

aimtastic: Those rows and rows of bunk beds look pretty powder-keggy to me.


Yeah. Now imagine if they were all zombies.
 
2012-10-27 12:56:28 PM  

me texan: Happy Hours: And last I checked our military is still all volunteer.

Last I checked, so is the decision to rob, stab and kill people.


7 out of 10 prisoners(America) are in for non-violent offenses
 
2012-10-27 12:57:40 PM  
What do the jails look like they put people in who can't afford their bills? Debtors prisons are already making a comeback and will lead to more overcrowding.
 
2012-10-27 12:59:56 PM  

Happy Hours: And last I checked our military is still all volunteer.


So's prison.
 
2012-10-27 01:01:05 PM  
Release all the non-violent drug offenders and prostitutes. Kill all the burglars, thieves, murders, rapists, and kid diddlers. Then there will be plenty of room to reform the drunk drivers and tax cheats.
 
2012-10-27 01:02:27 PM  
I see the anti-"War on Drugs" crowd is here. "Waaa, if we just legalize drugs, the prisons would be at 10% capacity".
How about you quit using until that day comes chief? After a month, you may not want to pick up that joint or start sniffing coke up your nose. After they're legalized, you can go back to pretending illicit drugs aren't harmful for you.
 
2012-10-27 01:03:03 PM  
Yeah, I ONLY care about the inmates who are in there for small drug charges; everyone else can eat a bowl of dicks.
 
2012-10-27 01:03:03 PM  
Reminds me of the berthing aboard a navy ship.

www.mbaintheusa.com

I was on the USS Ronald Reagan
 
2012-10-27 01:03:53 PM  
From 1853 to 1972, California had four prisons. Today, they have 33, with plans to build fifteen more. Meanwhile violent crime rates have steadily dropped. Those are the facts. Draw your own conclusions.
 
2012-10-27 01:05:32 PM  
If only there were a way for people to avoid going to an overcrowded prison.
 
2012-10-27 01:05:50 PM  

GAT_00: Ah, I see the 'criminals are subhuman' crowd is already here.


If we were talking about them being subhuman we'd be talking about killing them.

Someone who hurts society has to be pulled out of society.
 
2012-10-27 01:06:09 PM  
Damn. Pauly's gonna have to slice the garlic extra thin.
www.adrowe.com
/there's no room for the lobsters and dago red
 
2012-10-27 01:06:25 PM  

GAT_00: Generation_D: And I'm supposed to care, why exactly

How can prison rehabilitate in conditions like that? You do realize that's what prison sentences are supposed to do, right?


You still think our prison system is for rehabilitation? How cute.
 
2012-10-27 01:07:17 PM  
For the "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time crowd": Do you ever think that maybe there might be a few too many crimes that result in prison time? That the US might jail people for shiat that other countries don't? That the political system is rigged in favour of politicians who can scream "SOFT ON CRIME"!!!!" the loudest? That jailing so many people, and saddling them with permanent criminal records, might have negative social consequences that far exceed the benefits?

Just thinking out loud.
 
2012-10-27 01:07:29 PM  
How many are in there for pot violations? Let's make that the first thing we change.

/don't smoke weed
 
2012-10-27 01:07:44 PM  

PacManDreaming: Happy Hours: One thing nobody here has asked is why we incarcerate so many more people than any other nation in the world.

Are people in the US that much more likely to be criminals?

Because there's money to be made in locking people up for any little thing someone can think of.


If there is so much money to be made why are prisons and jails so overcrowded to the point where you hear about people getting early release because of no room?
 
2012-10-27 01:07:53 PM  
I like how all the do-gooders think being incarcerated will never happen to them.

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
That's what you get.
Illegal is not a race, it's a crime.
You should have thought of that before you broke the law.
If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about.
Plenty of jobs out there, people just don't want to work.
God only helps those who help themselves.
 
2012-10-27 01:08:01 PM  
"The reformative effect of punishment is a belief that dies hard, chiefly I think, because it is so satisfying to our sadistic impulses." - Bertrand Russell, Ideas That Have Harmed Mankind
 
2012-10-27 01:08:29 PM  

ltdanman44: me texan: Happy Hours: And last I checked our military is still all volunteer.

Last I checked, so is the decision to rob, stab and kill people.

7 out of 10 prisoners(America) are in for non-violent offenses


The prison system is warehousing human beings.
 
2012-10-27 01:08:46 PM  

yeegrek: Do you ever think that maybe there might be a few too many crimes that result in prison time?


Just to be safe, I'll just avoid committing *all* the crimes.
 
2012-10-27 01:11:00 PM  
Look at all of those precious little snowflakes!
 
2012-10-27 01:11:19 PM  

ZodiacMan: Release all the non-violent drug offenders and prostitutes. Kill all the burglars, thieves, murders, rapists, and kid diddlers. Then there will be plenty of room to reform the drunk drivers and tax cheats.


No, you killed them off with the murderers and thieves.
 
2012-10-27 01:11:39 PM  

me texan: Happy Hours: And last I checked our military is still all volunteer.

Last I checked, so is the decision to rob, stab and kill people.


Which are the only reasons that people go to jail.
 
2012-10-27 01:11:41 PM  
Looks like a POW camp for the War on Drugs.
 
2012-10-27 01:11:53 PM  

Happy Hours: One thing nobody here has asked is why we incarcerate so many more people than any other nation in the world.

Are people in the US that much more likely to be criminals?

Does every other country not punish crime that should be punished?

Anyone?


Neither, actually. It turns out that the rate of prison admissions in the US is pretty comparable to the rest of the Western world. The difference is that punishments in the US tend to be much harsher and sentences for the same crimes tend to be much longer than in the rest of the West. We have more inmates not because we send more away, but because we don't let them out when they're in. Too lazy to get you a cite from my phone but it's easy to look it up.
 
2012-10-27 01:12:08 PM  

mechgreg: PacManDreaming: Happy Hours: One thing nobody here has asked is why we incarcerate so many more people than any other nation in the world.

Are people in the US that much more likely to be criminals?

Because there's money to be made in locking people up for any little thing someone can think of.

If there is so much money to be made why are prisons and jails so overcrowded to the point where you hear about people getting early release because of no room?


Why do you think the private prison industry is clamoring to build more (while pushing for stricter sentencing laws under the guise of being "tough on crime")?

Google ALEC and private prisons.
 
2012-10-27 01:12:42 PM  
Real question. Why does California, with its lax drug laws, liberal policies, etc lead in overcrowding?

/please do not take my use of the L word to imply I'm a republican. I'm not.
 
2012-10-27 01:13:18 PM  

Happy Hours: And last I checked our military is still all volunteer.


For now.

That doesn't mean it always was, or always will be. We can still draft, you know.
 
2012-10-27 01:13:29 PM  

Crewmannumber6: How many are in there for pot violations? Let's make that the first thing we change.

/don't smoke weed


In California, marijuana violations make up less than one percent of state incarcerations.
 
2012-10-27 01:14:23 PM  

kronicfeld: me texan: Do they deserve better than soldiers in basic training / boot camp?

This reeks of "Waterboarding isn't torture because SEALS are waterboarded as part of their training."


No it doesn't. Just like those jails that put up tents, good enough for the troops more than good enough for a convicted criminal.So what what if they lack privacy? It is prison not the Four Seasons. They get fed , clothed etc.

Heck they have it better than some service members. Sailors on the Fast Attacks use to have to hot bunk (may still have to) meaning they do not have their own bed . While they were on watch somebody else is using it. If we use this standard we could argue that our prisons are under utilized. If you look at the pictures too many guys just standing around. Why are they not out breaking rocks or making license plates?

We could break the prisoners up in to 3- 8 hour rotating shifts 1 shift sleeping, 1 shift making license plates 1 shift attending classes/recreation (no weights)/showers with meal times squeezed into shifts.. That way the beds would never be empty and you could triple the prison capacity


You sound like one of those who supports the idea of a criminal being able to sue his victims.
 
2012-10-27 01:14:45 PM  

Butthurted: GAT_00: Generation_D: And I'm supposed to care, why exactly

How can prison rehabilitate in conditions like that? You do realize that's what prison sentences are supposed to do, right?

You still think our prison system is for rehabilitation? How cute.


Well, then, make all prison sentences life sentences, or death sentences. Either call yourself willing to pay for people who commit felonies to be walled off from society for the rest of their lives, or call yourself willing to condone state-sponsored murder. And then watch crime rates skyrocket as thieves who would go to prison for the same amount of time as murderers start murdering because they've got nothing to lose.
 
2012-10-27 01:14:46 PM  

Evenbiggerknickers: you mean it's not like it is on TV?


You're gettin' awful mouthy, prag.
 
2012-10-27 01:15:02 PM  
Keep doing what you're doing, and you'll keep getting what you're getting. Psychologists and social scientists who study this sort of thing for a living could have told them that the policies that have been implemented would lead to increased incarceration, increased recidivism, and a massive waste of taxpayer's money. But why bother to listen to poindexter over there, when "common sense" tells people that the answer to crime is "Lock em up and throw away the key"?
 
2012-10-27 01:15:02 PM  

CruJones: Real question. Why does California, with its lax drug laws, liberal policies, etc lead in overcrowding?

/please do not take my use of the L word to imply I'm a republican. I'm not.


You're from Texas, so same thing. And the laws are set to appease the inland empire crowd. If you ignore SF and LA Commifornia turns pretty damn Red.
 
2012-10-27 01:15:20 PM  

GAT_00: Ah, I see the 'criminals are subhuman' crowd is already here.


They're convicted criminals, FFS.


If you're so fond of them, take one in as a pet project after they parole out. You can find needy single inmates (male and female), just looking for someone to shack up with.


Go ahead, you bleeding hearts. Give it a try. Hell, take in your average convicted dealer and let me know how it works out.
 
2012-10-27 01:15:30 PM  
Lucky those pictures aren't scratch-n-sniff.
 
2012-10-27 01:16:33 PM  
"Land of the Free".
 
2012-10-27 01:17:05 PM  

Ed 'Too Tall' Jones: Neither, actually. It turns out that the rate of prison admissions in the US is pretty comparable to the rest of the Western world. The difference is that punishments in the US tend to be much harsher and sentences for the same crimes tend to be much longer than in the rest of the West. We have more inmates not because we send more away, but because we don't let them out when they're in. Too lazy to get you a cite from my phone but it's easy to look it up.


i.dailymail.co.uk

Let me help.
 
2012-10-27 01:17:10 PM  

PC LOAD LETTER: I truly don't farking care. Don't like it? Don't be a crim.


agreed.
 
2012-10-27 01:17:50 PM  

fastfxr: GAT_00: Ah, I see the 'criminals are subhuman' crowd is already here.

They're convicted criminals, FFS.


If you're so fond of them, take one in as a pet project after they parole out. You can find needy single inmates (male and female), just looking for someone to shack up with.


Go ahead, you bleeding hearts. Give it a try. Hell, take in your average convicted dealer and let me know how it works out.


How about you take in the children of people growing up without a parent so they can have a lowered chance of following the same path in life?
 
2012-10-27 01:18:03 PM  
If they hot bunked they'd need far less living space.
 
2012-10-27 01:18:58 PM  

me texan: Looks about the same as my barracks in basic training, except they have more freedoms apparently. Do they deserve better than soldiers in basic training / boot camp?

/not subby


I was gonna say... quarters were tighter than that aboard ship, too.
 
2012-10-27 01:19:24 PM  

NFA: Seeing at all those tattooed gang members who are likely there because they're too violent to be on the streets, DID NOT elicit ANY compassion from me.

In fact my thought is that we need to streamline executions for all known violent gang members. Simply belonging to a violent gang should warrant the death penalty. These groups exist to protect their members when they sell drugs, steal, rob, burglarize, rape, murder, kidnap, hold and sell sex slaves. I say we as a nation stop being a bunch of pussies and begin to systematically wipe out this growing criminal paradigm. If you don't think it's a growing problem in the US, go live in Juarez Mexico and see what our future holds.


Who defines what a violent gang is? How do you positively identify their members? What are the standards to identify these people that will insure you are murdering the correct tattooed gang members "who are likely there because they're too violent to be on the streets"?
 
2012-10-27 01:20:04 PM  
The number of people in here with a "can't do the time don't do the crime" attitude is scary. Both the "fark'm, they're criminals" mentality itself and the life-view that allows you to so easily write-off other human beings. But it's all their fault right? No innocent person ever goes to prison, or if they do it's worth it to make sure no guilty people go free. And I would certainly never end up there, it's only those others who did the wrong things that everybody else can just not do.

I understand certain backward-thinking demographics having that attitude, but if you're here posting on FARK I wouldn't think you'd fall into any of them that squarely. Basically, I thought you were cool man.
 
2012-10-27 01:20:13 PM  
"BEN: You lucky, lucky bastard.
BRIAN: What?
BEN: Proper little jailer's pet, aren't we?
BRIAN: What do you mean?
BEN: You must have slipped him a few shekels, eh?
BRIAN: Slipped him a few shekels? You saw him spit in my face!
BEN: Ohh! What wouldn't I give to be spat at in the face! I sometimes hang
awake at night dreaming of being spat at in the face.
BRIAN: Well, it's not exactly friendly, is it? They had me in manacles!
BEN: Manacles! Ooh oooh oh oh. My idea of heaven is to be allowed to be
put in manacles... just for a few hours. They must think the sun shines out o' your arse, sonny.
BRIAN: Oh, lay off me. I've had a hard time!
BEN: You've had a hard time?! I've been here five years! They only hung me
the right way up yesterday! So, don't you come 'rou--
BRIAN: All right. All right.
BEN: They must think you're Lord God Almighty.
BRIAN: What will they do to me?
BEN: Oh, you'll probably get away with crucifixion.
BRIAN: Crucifixion?!
BEN: Yeah, first offence.
BRIAN: Get away with crucifixion?! It's--
BEN: Best thing the Romans ever did for us.
BRIAN: What?!
BEN: Oh, yeah. If we didn't have crucifixion, this country would be in a
right bloody mess.
BRIAN: Guards!
BEN: Nail him up, I say!"
 
2012-10-27 01:20:14 PM  

fastfxr: GAT_00: Ah, I see the 'criminals are subhuman' crowd is already here.

They're convicted criminals, FFS.


If you're so fond of them, take one in as a pet project after they parole out. You can find needy single inmates (male and female), just looking for someone to shack up with.


Go ahead, you bleeding hearts. Give it a try. Hell, take in your average convicted dealer and let me know how it works out.


Fat chance of that. Expressing concern and dema ding something be done is free and boy do people love deals.
 
2012-10-27 01:20:15 PM  

Generation_D: One last thought on that.

What if everyone just quit using? Not nancy reagan just say no, but eff you current system. Quit buying drugs, quit drinking, quit using medical products you have a say in using.

Send the entire messed up substance seller empire a nice message, the current system in America is effed up badly, so the hell with all of you, we're all going to go straight edge from now on.

Except coffee. Jesus H I'd go to prison before giving up coffee.


This isn't philosophy class. Most people with substance abuse problems will not stop using just to "stick it to the man". Yes, people are responsible for their own choices but you're using that as a cop out. In reality, a segment of the population will always find itself on the wrong side of the war on drugs, especially given current socioeconomic policies. That shouldn't disqualify them from being treated like human beings or having people care about them.
 
2012-10-27 01:21:08 PM  
Prison ain't so bad; you can make sangria in the terlet.

img209.imageshack.us
 
2012-10-27 01:21:27 PM  

uber yeti: NFA: Seeing at all those tattooed gang members who are likely there because they're too violent to be on the streets, DID NOT elicit ANY compassion from me.

In fact my thought is that we need to streamline executions for all known violent gang members. Simply belonging to a violent gang should warrant the death penalty. These groups exist to protect their members when they sell drugs, steal, rob, burglarize, rape, murder, kidnap, hold and sell sex slaves. I say we as a nation stop being a bunch of pussies and begin to systematically wipe out this growing criminal paradigm. If you don't think it's a growing problem in the US, go live in Juarez Mexico and see what our future holds.

Who defines what a violent gang is? How do you positively identify their members? What are the standards to identify these people that will insure you are murdering the correct tattooed gang members "who are likely there because they're too violent to be on the streets"?


ecx.images-amazon.com
 
2012-10-27 01:21:57 PM  

CruJones: Real question. Why does California, with its lax drug laws, liberal policies, etc lead in overcrowding?


Lax drug laws? Decriminalizing marijuana is about the only thing they've done. There are still plenty of other drugs you can be arrested for possessing in California.

Oh, yeah, there's also the three strikes laws, which the first offenders to be sentenced under it have only recently been able to be paroles (2009 would be the first year anyone with three strikes in California was eligible for parole). Sure, crime rates are down, but that doesn't eliminate those who are already in prison long-term. 

/And frankly, it's the extension of sentences, mandatory minimums, etc., combined with prosecutors that run for office on a "tough on crime" platform that have gotten us this far.
//And the private prison movement is only going to take us farther.
 
2012-10-27 01:25:39 PM  

coco ebert: me texan: Happy Hours: And last I checked our military is still all volunteer.

Last I checked, so is the decision to rob, stab and kill people.

Lol, that's funny how you think most people are in jail for violent crimes.


It's all good though. The system is set up in such a way that it ensures if you were not a violent person when you were incarcerated, you will be when you get out.

Creating violence; It's the american way.
 
2012-10-27 01:25:46 PM  
free knives for all inmates
 
2012-10-27 01:26:29 PM  

IlGreven: Butthurted: GAT_00: Generation_D: And I'm supposed to care, why exactly

How can prison rehabilitate in conditions like that? You do realize that's what prison sentences are supposed to do, right?

You still think our prison system is for rehabilitation? How cute.

Well, then, make all prison sentences life sentences, or death sentences. Either call yourself willing to pay for people who commit felonies to be walled off from society for the rest of their lives, or call yourself willing to condone state-sponsored murder. And then watch crime rates skyrocket as thieves who would go to prison for the same amount of time as murderers start murdering because they've got nothing to lose.


So... because the court system has taken a punitive view of incarceration...we now make the leap to "make all prison sentences life sentences?????
Even Hockey has a distinction between minor and major penalties and that came from CANADA!!
i1277.photobucket.com
 
2012-10-27 01:26:54 PM  
i.dailymail.co.uk
 
2012-10-27 01:28:15 PM  

Eddie Ate Dynamite: The number of people in here with a "can't do the time don't do the crime" attitude is scary. Both the "fark'm, they're criminals" mentality itself and the life-view that allows you to so easily write-off other human beings. But it's all their fault right? No innocent person ever goes to prison, or if they do it's worth it to make sure no guilty people go free. And I would certainly never end up there, it's only those others who did the wrong things that everybody else can just not do.

I understand certain backward-thinking demographics having that attitude, but if you're here posting on FARK I wouldn't think you'd fall into any of them that squarely. Basically, I thought you were cool man.


The mentality of taking pleasure in the suffering of others is alive and well. Humans only need the slightest pretense to put people in the category of "Ok to enjoy their misfortune". If it could be proved beyond a shadow of any doubt that a more compassionate, and less punitive prison system (and it has already been proven well beyond that standards needed for reasonable people by other countries) resulted in less recidivism, less crime overall, and fewer violent crimes in particular, I believe most of these people would still be against it. They enjoy vengeance too much to be deprived of it.
 
2012-10-27 01:28:18 PM  
HA HA!

Americans are even fat in prison...
 
2012-10-27 01:30:36 PM  
I'm gonna lean on the lib'rul side of this one. If your crime was not a violation of a person's property rights or physical safety, and it didn't defraud taxpayers, I'm gonna vote not guilty and try to keep you out of jail.
As for my own situation, I don't care if the guy who stole my computer & stereo out of my house in 2004 goes to jail for no days or 30 days or 3,000. I just want my stuff back.

/you know who you are, k.s.
 
2012-10-27 01:31:03 PM  
I had a family member serve 30 days for DUI in colorado. He fully admitted that he deserved to go to jail, and we were all very lucky that when he was pulled over it wasn't because of a car accident or anything-- at least nobody got hurt.

He lost 15 lbs in jail (and he's a small guy) because the food was so inedible. He kept his head down so never got in trouble with the violent offenders-- this jail doubled as a way for people in prison to ease back into society-- but he slept in open bunkhouses like the ones pictured, and it would be very easy for people to get injured.

One man there contracted a MRSA infection while taking a shower and died because the conditions were so filthy.

Let me repeat that. One man, who may have been in there for almost nothing, DIED because the conditions are so deplorable.

Say what you will about people deserving to go to jail for one crime or another, no reasonable person can think that death by virulent bacterial infection, or malnutrition, or anal raping is an acceptable punishment
 
2012-10-27 01:32:03 PM  

Cuthbert Allgood: HA HA!

Americans are even fat in prison...


Likely especially in prison.
 
2012-10-27 01:33:27 PM  
Here's a question for ya: can we find a way to fuel cars with inmates?

/2 birds, 1 stone?
 
2012-10-27 01:34:10 PM  

Generation_D: 2wolves: USA: All the justice you can afford.

yep, just like every country anywhere ever. Don't like it? make money.


Actually, no, every country in the world manages to make do with sending fewer people to prison than the US does. Norway has less than one tenth as many people in prison per capita, has the cushiest prisons in the world, and also has the lowest re-offending rate in the world Go figure.
 
2012-10-27 01:34:15 PM  

pivazena: Let me repeat that. One man, who may have been in there for almost nothing, DIED because the conditions are so deplorable.


I see your problem.
 
2012-10-27 01:35:27 PM  

Repo Man: The mentality of taking pleasure in the suffering of others is alive and well. Humans only need the slightest pretense to put people in the category of "Ok to enjoy their misfortune". If it could be proved beyond a shadow of any doubt that a more compassionate, and less punitive prison system (and it has already been proven well beyond that standards needed for reasonable people by other countries) resulted in less recidivism, less crime overall, and fewer violent crimes in particular, I believe most of these people would still be against it. They enjoy vengeance too much to be deprived of it.


Most Americans would. But if MSNBC's Lockup series portrays the issue accurately, it really does appear that European prisons constitute the soft-on-crime rehabilitation hotels (one Belgian prisoner even compared prison food to food you'd get at a decent hotel--said while eating comfortably in his well lit cell in front of his not-insubstantially sized television) American conservatives imagine American prisons to be. And Anders Brevik's sentence is only 21 years (but he can be held longer if he's determined to constitute a threat). So this vengeance obsession isn't something inherent to the human character.

And if you're wondering, as a matter of public policy, I would strongly prefer our prisons to be soft-on-crime rehabilitation hotels.
 
2012-10-27 01:35:46 PM  

rmoody: uber yeti: NFA: Seeing at all those tattooed gang members who are likely there because they're too violent to be on the streets, DID NOT elicit ANY compassion from me.

In fact my thought is that we need to streamline executions for all known violent gang members. Simply belonging to a violent gang should warrant the death penalty. These groups exist to protect their members when they sell drugs, steal, rob, burglarize, rape, murder, kidnap, hold and sell sex slaves. I say we as a nation stop being a bunch of pussies and begin to systematically wipe out this growing criminal paradigm. If you don't think it's a growing problem in the US, go live in Juarez Mexico and see what our future holds.

Who defines what a violent gang is? How do you positively identify their members? What are the standards to identify these people that will insure you are murdering the correct tattooed gang members "who are likely there because they're too violent to be on the streets"?

[ecx.images-amazon.com image 300x300]


It is funny because it is true.
 
2012-10-27 01:38:14 PM  

GAT_00: Generation_D: And I'm supposed to care, why exactly

How can prison rehabilitate in conditions like that? You do realize that's what prison sentences are supposed to do, right?


Forget it. This thread is dildos.
 
2012-10-27 01:39:31 PM  

pivazena: One man there contracted a MRSA infection while taking a shower and died because the conditions were so filthy.

Let me repeat that. One man, who may have been in there for almost nothing, DIED because the conditions are so deplorable.


You realize you're turning on all the badge-lickers with words like that don't you?
 
2012-10-27 01:39:55 PM  

pivazena:

Say what you will about people deserving to go to jail for one crime or another, no reasonable person can think that death by virulent bacterial infection, or malnutrition, or anal raping is an acceptable punishment


Stick around I'm sure someone will.
 
2012-10-27 01:40:06 PM  
Maybe like China aledgely does, budget for just so many, when they surpass the quota allowed they just shoot the ones with seniority.
/ not sure if true
 
2012-10-27 01:44:19 PM  

GAT_00: Generation_D: And I'm supposed to care, why exactly

How can prison rehabilitate in conditions like that? You do realize that's what prison sentences are supposed to do, right?


Nope. Still don't, no matter how many times the hippies make that claim.

/rehabilitation is an occasional beneficial side effect
//removal of freedom from people who abuse it is the goal
 
2012-10-27 01:44:37 PM  

mechgreg: If there is so much money to be made why are prisons and jails so overcrowded to the point where you hear about people getting early release because of no room?


So they can cycle more people through the system.
 
2012-10-27 01:45:12 PM  

Huck And Molly Ziegler: As for my own situation, I don't care if the guy who stole my computer & stereo out of my house in 2004 goes to jail for no days or 30 days or 3,000. I just want my stuff back.


I would like to see the guys who stole billions of dollars from US banks spend at least a couple months in pound-them-in-the-ass-prison, preferably sharing a cell with the guy who is spending decades there for stealing $300 from a bank.
 
2012-10-27 01:46:05 PM  

PC LOAD LETTER: I truly don't farking care. Don't like it? Don't be a crim.


I had you marked as a liberal. I'm disappointed to discover you're actually a law-worshipping authoritarian.
 
2012-10-27 01:48:15 PM  
i.dailymail.co.uk

Hope they are careful about which of these fine upstanding young men get released.
 
2012-10-27 01:48:59 PM  

Cuthbert Allgood: HA HA!

Americans are even fat in prison...


Was I the only one who read that and heard the guy from "The Hangover" voice. LOLOLOL

/So long Gayboys!!!
 
2012-10-27 01:51:14 PM  
Without reading the thread, is it full of, "It's a lot better than they deserve, which is to be slowly roasted alive, screaming in agony, and it should be televised 24/7 for my fapping enjoyment"?

/I bet it is
 
2012-10-27 01:52:49 PM  
Most of the time burglars are released early when there's overcrowding. So who are all these non-violent criminals...I'm guessing potheads and tax evaders? Not cool, America.
 
2012-10-27 01:53:59 PM  

pciszek: Huck And Molly Ziegler: As for my own situation, I don't care if the guy who stole my computer & stereo out of my house in 2004 goes to jail for no days or 30 days or 3,000. I just want my stuff back.

I would like to see the guys who stole billions of dollars from US banks spend at least a couple months in pound-them-in-the-ass-prison, preferably sharing a cell with the guy who is spending decades there for stealing $300 from a bank.


You enjoy thinking about homosexual rape?
 
2012-10-27 01:55:15 PM  

pciszek: Huck And Molly Ziegler: As for my own situation, I don't care if the guy who stole my computer & stereo out of my house in 2004 goes to jail for no days or 30 days or 3,000. I just want my stuff back.

I would like to see the guys who stole billions of dollars from US banks spend at least a couple months in pound-them-in-the-ass-prison, preferably sharing a cell with the guy who is spending decades there for stealing $300 from a bank.


Or the guy who spent 14 years in jail and was never charged with anything since he didn't have the money he was ordered to turn over.
 
2012-10-27 01:56:07 PM  

Kibbler: Without reading the thread, is it full of, "It's a lot better than they deserve, which is to be slowly roasted alive, screaming in agony, and it should be televised 24/7 for my fapping enjoyment"?

/I bet it is


Yes, and I'm very disappointed to see that it's people I had previously marked as liberals making those types of posts. They ought to know better.
 
2012-10-27 01:57:37 PM  
An island that has farming, a big field where supplies and new inmates can be parachuted onto, no guards, no boats and one big ol heaping helping dose of Darwinism.
 
2012-10-27 01:58:38 PM  

Dancin_In_Anson: Happy Hours: And last I checked our military is still all volunteer.

me texan: Last I checked, so is the decision to rob, stab and kill people.

Aaaaaand we're done here.


A nation that locks up more of its citizens than any other 'civilized' nation. Nope, nothing to see here! We're all done here! Yay not thinking!

/Really, guys. Really.
//Your brains do have an on switch.
 
2012-10-27 02:01:30 PM  

tonguedepressor: An island that has farming, a big field where supplies and new inmates can be parachuted onto, no guards, no boats and one big ol heaping helping dose of Darwinism.



Lil' Bobby: "Mom, dad where's uncle Billy? You didn't have him put down, did you?"

Dad: "No son. We took him to a farm, where he'll have room to run and play. He's much happier there..."
 
2012-10-27 02:02:32 PM  

yeegrek: Do you ever think that maybe there might be a few too many crimes that result in prison time? That the US might jail people for shiat that other countries don't? T


Then what should be decriminalized? Surely violent crimes that result in the injury and/or death of another human being should result in jail time.
 
2012-10-27 02:04:48 PM  
Oh boo-farking-hoo!

There's plenty of space on the outside. If you want space, how about not getting thrown in prison. Also, to make room, I suggest we survey them, and see how many volunteer to take a bullet to the brain to make room. If we don't get takers, I say we volunteer them. All of them.

These people deserve death, and in some cases worse. But death for them ALL would be a good solution as far as I can tell. We spend tens of thousands of dollars per inmate per year so that murderers and rapist and play cards and watch tv and eat food we pay for? All while we spend maybe half as much per person per year on a graduate student who is teaching class and working his/her ass off in the lab trying to cure cancer? WTF!

And talk about overcrowding? WTF are you talking about. Look at all the space available even in most crowded picture they showed:

img844.imageshack.us

They should all be destroyed.
 
BHK
2012-10-27 02:04:57 PM  
America! Freedom F*** Yeah!

Freedom comes only from obedience to the laws, even if the laws criminalize what a free and peaceful person can do elsewhere or could do previously. At least, that's the line of your average authoritarian leftist or conservative, which seems to be most of the people in this thread.

The US has become a bunch of cowardly sheep who won't be happy until half the population is living in a prison of some fashion.
 
2012-10-27 02:06:03 PM  

me texan: Looks about the same as my barracks in basic training, except they have more freedoms apparently. Do they deserve better than soldiers in basic training / boot camp?


It's not about what they deserve, it's about what will help to keep them from offending again.
 
2012-10-27 02:06:54 PM  
img32.imageshack.us

Poor Kurt Russell. One would think he would have done better after Tombstone.
 
2012-10-27 02:07:24 PM  
Where's the liberal derp pic of "STOP BREAKING THE LAW ASSHOLE"?

War on drugs? Let em go, victim of society.

Red light camera for revenue? STRING HIM UP BY HIS BAWLS.
 
2012-10-27 02:07:54 PM  

Tatterdemalian: GAT_00: Generation_D: And I'm supposed to care, why exactly

How can prison rehabilitate in conditions like that? You do realize that's what prison sentences are supposed to do, right?

Nope. Still don't, no matter how many times the hippies make that claim.

/rehabilitation is an occasional beneficial side effect
//removal of freedom from people who abuse it is the goal


That's a stupid goal. How is it other countries don't want or need to keep people locked up as long as we do? What about Norway's total, vengeance-free focus on rehabilitation and reeducation, which is proven to convert most criminals into non-criminals by the end of the process? Why are we satisfied with justice that seeks to do nothing but break people and has almost no interest in fixing them? It's like we're more interested in the score than the game.
 
2012-10-27 02:08:48 PM  

BHK: The US has become a bunch of cowardly sheep who won't be happy until half the population is living in a prison of some fashion.


i110.photobucket.com
 
2012-10-27 02:09:18 PM  

tonguedepressor: An island that has farming, a big field where supplies and new inmates can be parachuted onto, no guards, no boats and one big ol heaping helping dose of Darwinism.


THIS

Also...

i.qkme.me
 
2012-10-27 02:10:29 PM  
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-prisoners-per- capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes

The more incarceration, the more crime? Or vice versa?

All I am saying is I deal with felons, druggies, bums and whores a lot where I work. And most of them have the mindset that they would rather get in trouble and go to jail for a few nights than get themselves out of a shiatty lifestyle because that's how they have been trained. Hand-outs and jail cells are a sure thing.

There has got to be something different.
 
2012-10-27 02:11:44 PM  

Fade2black: Where's the liberal derp pic of "STOP BREAKING THE LAW ASSHOLE"?

War on drugs? Let em go, victim of society.

Red light camera for revenue? STRING HIM UP BY HIS BAWLS.


Your user name makes me want to listen to Vader for some reason.
 
2012-10-27 02:11:52 PM  

Generation_D: And I'm supposed to care, why exactly


Because eventually most of those guys are getting out, and they will not be fixed.
 
2012-10-27 02:13:11 PM  
www.djmarquardt.com
There's your problem right there.
 
2012-10-27 02:13:45 PM  

PsiChick: /Really, guys. Really.
//Your brains do have an on switch.


That switch is located at foobies.com
 
2012-10-27 02:14:41 PM  

Happy Hours: me texan: Looks about the same as my barracks in basic training, except they have more freedoms apparently. Do they deserve better than soldiers in basic training / boot camp?

/not subby

Basic training lasts 6-8 weeks? It's designed to instill discipline and whip new recruits to the military into shape and there's little fear that the person in the next bunk is going to rape, stab or just plain beat the shiat out of you for whatever reason or even no reason.

And last I checked our military is still all volunteer.

It would be interesting to get the perspective of people who had both been through boot camp and a prison like this. I've not been to either one, but if you gave me a choice of a prison as pictured or boot camp, I think I'd take boot camp.


Oddly enough, Prison is also all volunteer. You just volunteer by voluntarily committing a crime that carries with it a prison sentence. I have no problems with this.
 
2012-10-27 02:16:57 PM  
they should put a McDonald's in each prison. Make it like a Food Court in every mall you go to. With a Sbarro's and Taco Bell too..
 
2012-10-27 02:17:15 PM  

Kit Fister: Happy Hours: me texan: Looks about the same as my barracks in basic training, except they have more freedoms apparently. Do they deserve better than soldiers in basic training / boot camp?

/not subby

Basic training lasts 6-8 weeks? It's designed to instill discipline and whip new recruits to the military into shape and there's little fear that the person in the next bunk is going to rape, stab or just plain beat the shiat out of you for whatever reason or even no reason.

And last I checked our military is still all volunteer.

It would be interesting to get the perspective of people who had both been through boot camp and a prison like this. I've not been to either one, but if you gave me a choice of a prison as pictured or boot camp, I think I'd take boot camp.

Oddly enough, Prison is also all volunteer. You just volunteer by voluntarily committing a crime that carries with it a prison sentence. I have no problems with this.


Because all laws are wise and fair and no one is ever wrongfully convicted.
 
2012-10-27 02:18:03 PM  
Overcrowding? Why not raise more taxes and build more prisons?

. . . but don't raise taxes on the rich. After all, they're not the ones in the prisons, so why should they have to pay for them?

/why . . . I believe I've just crafted a new Republican talking point.
 
2012-10-27 02:18:03 PM  

Nem Wan: Tatterdemalian: GAT_00: Generation_D: And I'm supposed to care, why exactly

How can prison rehabilitate in conditions like that? You do realize that's what prison sentences are supposed to do, right?

Nope. Still don't, no matter how many times the hippies make that claim.

/rehabilitation is an occasional beneficial side effect
//removal of freedom from people who abuse it is the goal

That's a stupid goal. How is it other countries don't want or need to keep people locked up as long as we do? What about Norway's total, vengeance-free focus on rehabilitation and reeducation, which is proven to convert most criminals into non-criminals by the end of the process? Why are we satisfied with justice that seeks to do nothing but break people and has almost no interest in fixing them? It's like we're more interested in the score than the game.


What about the needs of Norwegian conservatives? Where do they go for their schadenfreude fix? Answer me that Mr. smartypants!
 
2012-10-27 02:21:04 PM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [i.dailymail.co.uk image 850x511]

Hope they are careful about which of these fine upstanding young men get released.


I see you are trolling.

A good friend of mine farked up and went to jail. Not a bad kid, just was in a bad way and got caught with a friend with drugs. His friend threw him under the bus for bigger shiat so that he could get off lighter. My friend went in a misguided kid that made a mistake, and came out looking like those guys and had a far bigger view of the world of crime. People learn to be dregs of society in prison, because that's what you have to do to get by.
 
2012-10-27 02:22:44 PM  
FTA:
The [USA] is streets ahead of the rest of the world in terms of the number of prisoners per 100,000 population, with Russia the second highest and South Africa in third. The European average took fourth place.

Streets ahead? I didn't know someone had coined that phrase.
 
drp
2012-10-27 02:22:51 PM  

calbert: where's the photo gallery of the lives of their victims?


What makes you think all of them even had victims?

Nonviolent drug crimes send a lot of people to prison.
 
2012-10-27 02:23:19 PM  
Oh boo fuking whoo. Quit being a gang member, (as most of those pictures show) or murdering, or molesting, or whatever dumb shiat you did to get in there in the first place. It's prison, it's not supposed to be comfortable or a good time.
 
2012-10-27 02:23:26 PM  
On the other hand, imagine if everyone refused to ple-bargin and asked for a speedy trial (sixth amendment). In many states that six-month requirement would fly by mighty fast. The rule is: A violation of the Speedy Trial Clause is cause for dismissal with prejudice of a criminal case.
 
2012-10-27 02:23:28 PM  
A lot of Americans seem to have an abuser/abused relationship with their own government (which I suppose is to be expected when a government makes war on its own people). Some people really, really need to believe that there is a good reason why so many of their own citizens are punished so severely. I suppose it's a lot easier to identify with the abuser and think that as long as you mindlessly obey a set of arbitrary rules (e.g don't smoke pot) they'll leave you alone.

assets.rollingstone.com

"There's a perfectly good reason why that's not me and it's him. The right people always win, I'm sure of it."

/hot
 
2012-10-27 02:25:36 PM  
Look at all the Mexicans. I wonder how many of them are illegals. If we got rid of them that would be more than sufficient to reduce inmate numbers to acceptable levels for the space they have. It'd help out our Department Of Corrections budget problems too, since it costs about 48 thousand dollars a year to house these guys.
 
2012-10-27 02:26:43 PM  
End the drug war.
 
2012-10-27 02:29:05 PM  
Last time I saw a prison overcrowding story on Fark, I came up with this solution:
1. Change criminal laws so that anyone convicted of theft or any kind of violent crime gets the death penalty.
2. Apply these laws retroactively to those currently incarcerated.
Any jurisdiction that applies this simple solution will quickly solve the problem of prison overcrowding and become a much nicer place to live.
 
2012-10-27 02:30:09 PM  

omgwtfetc: A lot of Americans seem to have an abuser/abused relationship with their own government (which I suppose is to be expected when a government makes war on its own people). Some people really, really need to believe that there is a good reason why so many of their own citizens are punished so severely. I suppose it's a lot easier to identify with the abuser and think that as long as you mindlessly obey a set of arbitrary rules (e.g don't smoke pot) they'll leave you alone.

[assets.rollingstone.com image 306x420]

"There's a perfectly good reason why that's not me and it's him. The right people always win, I'm sure of it."

/hot


I think I love you.
No, wait, that's Louis CK that I love.
Yes, this 26-year-old young woman would be all over those cynical old man balls like honey on a hot buiscut.

/sshh
 
2012-10-27 02:30:38 PM  

Happy Hours: One thing nobody here has asked is why we incarcerate so many more people than any other nation in the world.

Are people in the US that much more likely to be criminals?

Does every other country not punish crime that should be punished?

Anyone?


A lot of other countries execute criminals for crimes that are not capital offenses in the US. Rape, drugs, even corruption. Their prisoners are not afforded the same luxuries that US prisoners get. That's a hell of a lot more incentive to not be a criminal.

/Yeah, I know not all other countries are like that
 
2012-10-27 02:32:15 PM  

mike0023: Last time I saw a prison overcrowding story on Fark, I came up with this solution:
1. Change criminal laws so that anyone convicted of theft or any kind of violent crime gets the death penalty.
2. Apply these laws retroactively to those currently incarcerated.
Any jurisdiction that applies this simple solution will quickly solve the problem of prison overcrowding and become a much nicer place to live.


LOL, yeah, a society that engages in mass executions for minor crimes would be such a nice place to live.
 
2012-10-27 02:33:45 PM  
WAAAAAAH, I JOINED A GANG AND ROBBED PEOPLE, ASSAULTED PEOPLE, AND SOLD DRUGS OF MY OWN FREE WILL AND NOW THEY WON'T LET ME LEAVE THIS PRISON! WAAAAAAH

zero
farks
given
 
2012-10-27 02:34:33 PM  

omgwtfetc: mike0023: Last time I saw a prison overcrowding story on Fark, I came up with this solution:
1. Change criminal laws so that anyone convicted of theft or any kind of violent crime gets the death penalty.
2. Apply these laws retroactively to those currently incarcerated.
Any jurisdiction that applies this simple solution will quickly solve the problem of prison overcrowding and become a much nicer place to live.

LOL, yeah, a society that engages in mass executions for minor crimes would be such a nice place to live.


Better than a society that refuses to execute anyone, no matter how bad their crime.
 
2012-10-27 02:37:27 PM  

The_Original_Roxtar: zero
farks
given


and that is why you fail.
 
2012-10-27 02:37:53 PM  

mike0023: omgwtfetc: mike0023: Last time I saw a prison overcrowding story on Fark, I came up with this solution:
1. Change criminal laws so that anyone convicted of theft or any kind of violent crime gets the death penalty.
2. Apply these laws retroactively to those currently incarcerated.
Any jurisdiction that applies this simple solution will quickly solve the problem of prison overcrowding and become a much nicer place to live.

LOL, yeah, a society that engages in mass executions for minor crimes would be such a nice place to live.

Better than a society that refuses to execute anyone, no matter how bad their crime.


Do you honestly believe that? I'm trying very hard not to Godwin this, but can you picture what a society that engages in mass executions of minor criminals would look like? Do you really think it would be "nice"?
 
2012-10-27 02:38:49 PM  
I get the feeling that a lot of people posting in here actually believe that the West Memphis Three were innocent.
 
2012-10-27 02:39:15 PM  

mike0023: LOL, yeah, a society that engages in mass executions for minor crimes would be such a nice place to live.

Better than a society that refuses to execute anyone, no matter how bad their crime.


There are several such societies, such as Denmark, where people are happier than they are in the USA, according to every study that has been done.
 
2012-10-27 02:40:44 PM  

Silly Jesus: [i963.photobucket.com image 201x152]


You dog, you!
 
2012-10-27 02:45:29 PM  

tonguedepressor: An island that has farming, a big field where supplies and new inmates can be parachuted onto, no guards, no boats and one big ol heaping helping dose of Darwinism.


Even though I mostly think we should try to rehabilitate prisoners for real, I would watch that show... I'm a bad person sometimes.
 
2012-10-27 02:46:35 PM  

charmbomb: omgwtfetc: A lot of Americans seem to have an abuser/abused relationship with their own government (which I suppose is to be expected when a government makes war on its own people). Some people really, really need to believe that there is a good reason why so many of their own citizens are punished so severely. I suppose it's a lot easier to identify with the abuser and think that as long as you mindlessly obey a set of arbitrary rules (e.g don't smoke pot) they'll leave you alone.

[assets.rollingstone.com image 306x420]

"There's a perfectly good reason why that's not me and it's him. The right people always win, I'm sure of it."

/hot

I think I love you.
No, wait, that's Louis CK that I love.
Yes, this 26-year-old young woman would be all over those cynical old man balls like honey on a hot buiscut.

/sshh


You just like him because he remembers going to the movies when it cost three dollars and there was smoking on airplanes. Not to mention the old man smell.
 
2012-10-27 02:47:39 PM  

PsiChick: A nation that locks up more of its citizens than any other 'civilized' nation. Nope, nothing to see here! We're all done here! Yay not thinking!


I would venture to say that our violent crime rate is a little higher than other countries as well. Please note that the comment that I replied to referred to violent crimes...not to our farking ridiculous drug 'crimes'.
 
2012-10-27 02:47:40 PM  

PC LOAD LETTER: I truly don't farking care. Don't like it? Don't be a crim.



Yeah but ramraiding is so much fun
 
2012-10-27 02:48:09 PM  
If you want to know where all the manufacturing jobs went, they're all done by prisoners now. Prisoners in the US make everything imaginable. Furniture, appliances, weapons, ammo, everything.
 
2012-10-27 02:48:20 PM  
For those of you who have evolved beyond the "Everybody who gets sent to prison is guilty" mindset, consider 2 things:

*Some of the posters in this thread will serve on juries

*Some American prisons won't even admit journalists because the conditions are worse than those depicted in TFA
 
2012-10-27 02:49:01 PM  

tonguedepressor: An island that has farming, a big field where supplies and new inmates can be parachuted onto, no guards, no boats and one big ol heaping helping dose of Darwinism.


vikchav.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-10-27 02:49:03 PM  

mike0023: Last time I saw a prison overcrowding story on Fark, I came up with this solution:
1. Change criminal laws so that anyone convicted of theft or any kind of violent crime gets the death penalty.
2. Apply these laws retroactively to those currently incarcerated.
Any jurisdiction that applies this simple solution will quickly solve the problem of prison overcrowding and become a much nicer place to live.


1. Supreme Court rulings over the years, including Kennedy v. Louisiana just four years ago, have made the death penalty unconstitutional for almost any crime without a dead victim.
2. Ex post facto laws are explicitly unconstitutional.

I'm pointing out the obvious but my real point is that everyone's fantasy solution will be neutered in the process of political compromise with people who totally disagree with it.
 
2012-10-27 02:51:50 PM  
 
2012-10-27 02:53:56 PM  
This isn't a liberal or conservative only viewpoint. It's the fact that we as a society allow the government to keep forcing new laws and new laws and new laws down our throat. Then when we get popped, the rest shout out "stop breaking the law asshole" until they themselves get popped, and all of a sudden they were a victim; and new people will cry out "stop breaking the law asshole".

Point of fact is, every year politicians pass dozens and dozens of new laws to restrict our freedom. And zero to give it back. We have no one to blame but ourselves. But because we're all disgusting idiots who vote based on what letter is beside their name instead of what we feel they'll actually vote on, we allow it.

Enjoy your user-made society.
 
2012-10-27 02:54:06 PM  

pciszek: mike0023: LOL, yeah, a society that engages in mass executions for minor crimes would be such a nice place to live.

Better than a society that refuses to execute anyone, no matter how bad their crime.

There are several such societies, such as Denmark, where people are happier than they are in the USA, according to every study that has been done.


My "common sense" tells me that you are wrong, and is immune to your so called "facts" and "evidence".
 
2012-10-27 02:56:12 PM  

Nem Wan: mike0023: Last time I saw a prison overcrowding story on Fark, I came up with this solution:
1. Change criminal laws so that anyone convicted of theft or any kind of violent crime gets the death penalty.
2. Apply these laws retroactively to those currently incarcerated.
Any jurisdiction that applies this simple solution will quickly solve the problem of prison overcrowding and become a much nicer place to live.

1. Supreme Court rulings over the years, including Kennedy v. Louisiana just four years ago, have made the death penalty unconstitutional for almost any crime without a dead victim.
2. Ex post facto laws are explicitly unconstitutional.


As to your point #1, Supreme Court rulings are not set in stone, all it would take to change things are a couple of right-thinking justices. As to your point #2, if (when?) enough people see prison overcrowding as a problem, the constitution can be amended.
 
2012-10-27 02:57:43 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: Oh boo fuking whoo. Quit being a gang member, (as most of those pictures show) or murdering, or molesting, or whatever dumb shiat you did to get in there in the first place. It's prison, it's not supposed to be comfortable or a good time.


Again I say, if they weren't in a gang or a violent person when they went in they most likely will be when they get out. Then they'll go ahead and move to the shadier part of your town. Don't let that shiat get you down though, the status quo is obviously working as evidenced by the U.S. having the highest incarceration rate in the Western World.

If tomorrow all the things were gone I'd worked for all my life,
And I had to start again with just my children and my wife,
I'd thank my lucky stars to be living here today,
'Cause the flag still stands for freedom
And they can't take that away.

 
2012-10-27 02:59:17 PM  
CSB time:

I once spent a week in Marine transient berthing at naval station Philadelphia, when I checked in I wondered why all the doors were heavy steel with holes where they had used torches to cut locks out, my "room" was a 6x8 cell with no lock on the heavy steel door and a bungie cord holding it shut. I asked wtf was up and was told that it used to be the brig, but the Inspector General had ruled it unsafe for prisoners so they transferred them out, removed the locks and made it Marine berthing. So the place was unsafe for prisoners but just dandy for Marines, that told me exactly where the powers that be had us on the food chain...
 
2012-10-27 03:00:05 PM  

The_Original_Roxtar: WAAAAAAH, I JOINED A GANG AND ROBBED PEOPLE, ASSAULTED PEOPLE, AND SOLD DRUGS OF MY OWN FREE WILL AND NOW THEY WON'T LET ME LEAVE THIS PRISON! WAAAAAAH

zero
farks
given


Stupid kid steals a car, get sent up to do hard time in one of our criminal factories. Serves his time, is released, breaks into your apartment, rapes your girlfriend in front of you, and kills you both. Doesn't give a fark. He learned some things in the joint you see, and one of them was that human life has no value at all. But you're ok with that.
 
2012-10-27 03:00:32 PM  

Dancin_In_Anson: PsiChick: A nation that locks up more of its citizens than any other 'civilized' nation. Nope, nothing to see here! We're all done here! Yay not thinking!

I would venture to say that our violent crime rate is a little higher than other countries as well. Please note that the comment that I replied to referred to violent crimes...not to our farking ridiculous drug 'crimes'.


...And that's not weird either because..?

/Prison is the symptom, not the problem.
 
2012-10-27 03:01:26 PM  

jim32rr: me texan: Happy Hours: And last I checked our military is still all volunteer.

Last I checked, so is the decision to rob, stab and kill people.

Exactly, fark em.


At least one of the pictures was from a county jail. Most jail inmates haven't been convicted of a crime and are awaiting trial.

And some people are jailed or imprisoned for growing marijuana, which isn't something that should be criminalized to the extent it is.
 
2012-10-27 03:01:41 PM  

mike0023: Nem Wan: mike0023: Last time I saw a prison overcrowding story on Fark, I came up with this solution:
1. Change criminal laws so that anyone convicted of theft or any kind of violent crime gets the death penalty.
2. Apply these laws retroactively to those currently incarcerated.
Any jurisdiction that applies this simple solution will quickly solve the problem of prison overcrowding and become a much nicer place to live.

1. Supreme Court rulings over the years, including Kennedy v. Louisiana just four years ago, have made the death penalty unconstitutional for almost any crime without a dead victim.
2. Ex post facto laws are explicitly unconstitutional.

As to your point #1, Supreme Court rulings are not set in stone, all it would take to change things are a couple of right-thinking justices. As to your point #2, if (when?) enough people see prison overcrowding as a problem, the constitution can be amended.


You are a moron.
 
2012-10-27 03:03:03 PM  
Today I learned that many Americans like to pay taxes for only 2 things:
1 Wars (already knew that one)
2 Prisoners

/also learned the similarity between those peoples' brains and US prisons: not enough cells
 
2012-10-27 03:03:22 PM  

omgwtfetc: A lot of Americans seem to have an abuser/abused relationship with their own government (which I suppose is to be expected when a government makes war on its own people). Some people really, really need to believe that there is a good reason why so many of their own citizens are punished so severely. I suppose it's a lot easier to identify with the abuser and think that as long as you mindlessly obey a set of arbitrary rules (e.g don't smoke pot) they'll leave you alone.

[assets.rollingstone.com image 306x420]

"There's a perfectly good reason why that's not me and it's him. The right people always win, I'm sure of it."

/hot


The Just-World Fallacy
 
2012-10-27 03:03:24 PM  
Has anyone noticed that this seems to be a stealth form of eugenics? Just take a bunch of "undesirable" men and forcibly remove them from the female population when they are most likely to father children.

Which might at least be understandable if the only people affected were violent criminals, but it does seem more than a little creepy when you start locking up people for smoking pot.
 
2012-10-27 03:04:12 PM  
Man, I wish the Office of Justice stats were more easily sharable from here.

FY 2010 Prisoners entering Federal prison
Offense type N
Violent offenses 2,851
Property offenses 8,144
Drug offenses 24,508
Public-order offenses 5,906
Weapon offenses 8,336
Immigration offenses 21,520
Missing/Unknown 707
Total 71,972

It's not murderers and rapists filling the prison system - it's immigration and drugs. What with crack being exponentially a longer prison sentence than cocaine (I think 17 years vs 1 year, but I can't remember. They just changed it) it's pretty obviously slanted to be a money machine to trap brown and black people.
 
2012-10-27 03:05:06 PM  
I thought I'd let everybody get their rants off their chests before I pointed something out:
overcrowded prisons are both a sign of social malaise and a potential source of social problems - problems that blow back on society as a whole. There's a lot more to it than "Oh, the poor prisoners are being mistreated, and my heart bleeds".
If they were the only people affected by this, it would be one thing - but that isn't the case, and there's little point in discussing it as if it were.
 
2012-10-27 03:06:32 PM  

mike0023: Better than a society that refuses to execute anyone, no matter how bad their crime.


The concept of liberty requires that government power is limited to use that achieves a legitimate purpose and that government have a limited purpose. Once we agree there are limits it's a matter of where those limits are. If you had said, "better than a society that refuses to draw and quarter anyone, no matter how bad their crime," you would be referring to power that government is no longer granted. It's just as easy to imagine society functioning without lethal injection as it does without drawing and quartering.

Philosophically, capital punishment just seems basically incompatible with a society that's not based on a personality cult or totalitarian conformity. The fact the death penalty is so delayed and inconsistent in the U.S. is because opponents of it have made it difficult, and those opponents are never going away. We should just give up on the death penalty. It's a lot easier for capital punishment opponents to mess up a capital punishment system than it is for capital punishment supporters to mess up a non-capital punishment system. What would happen without capital punishment, vigilante revenge murders? Go to prison. Next!
 
2012-10-27 03:06:56 PM  

Repo Man: The_Original_Roxtar: WAAAAAAH, I JOINED A GANG AND ROBBED PEOPLE, ASSAULTED PEOPLE, AND SOLD DRUGS OF MY OWN FREE WILL AND NOW THEY WON'T LET ME LEAVE THIS PRISON! WAAAAAAH

zero
farks
given

Stupid kid steals a car, get sent up to do hard time in one of our criminal factories. Serves his time, is released, breaks into your apartment, rapes your girlfriend in front of you, and kills you both. Doesn't give a fark. He learned some things in the joint you see, and one of them was that human life has no value at all. But you're ok with that.


So you're saying being stupid shouldn't be a crime? I hope your car never gets stolen. What a stupid argument.
 
2012-10-27 03:08:22 PM  

GriffXX: Man, I wish the Office of Justice stats were more easily sharable from here.

FY 2010 Prisoners entering Federal prison
Offense type N
Violent offenses 2,851
Property offenses 8,144
Drug offenses 24,508
Public-order offenses 5,906
Weapon offenses 8,336
Immigration offenses 21,520
Missing/Unknown 707
Total 71,972

It's not murderers and rapists filling the prison system - it's immigration and drugs. What with crack being exponentially a longer prison sentence than cocaine (I think 17 years vs 1 year, but I can't remember. They just changed it) it's pretty obviously slanted to be a money machine to trap brown and black people.


And I'm sure popular culture has done nothing to dissuade said black people from the actions that cause them to end up in jail. Stop glamorizing gang/thug behavior and watch the prisons empty out.
 
2012-10-27 03:09:41 PM  
Wow, there are some truly awful people in this thread.
 
2012-10-27 03:09:55 PM  

Fade2black: Repo Man: The_Original_Roxtar: WAAAAAAH, I JOINED A GANG AND ROBBED PEOPLE, ASSAULTED PEOPLE, AND SOLD DRUGS OF MY OWN FREE WILL AND NOW THEY WON'T LET ME LEAVE THIS PRISON! WAAAAAAH

zero
farks
given

Stupid kid steals a car, get sent up to do hard time in one of our criminal factories. Serves his time, is released, breaks into your apartment, rapes your girlfriend in front of you, and kills you both. Doesn't give a fark. He learned some things in the joint you see, and one of them was that human life has no value at all. But you're ok with that.

So you're saying being stupid shouldn't be a crime? I hope your car never gets stolen. What a stupid argument.


Point --------------->

You ---------------->
 
2012-10-27 03:10:08 PM  
Most of them in there probably want to be in there -- no bills, no rent, sit around playing cards and working out all day? Yeah you have to dodge some prison rape from time to time but most of them don't look TOO upset to be there.

Feck' em all is what I say.

Want to cut down on the prison population? Make prison tough - want dinner? then you are going to work 8 hours doing some sort of menial labor. I will agree that making "marijuana" legal would probably be a smart move... personally I've never smoked and never care to. If you are caught driving or operating heavy machinery while high... you get locked in a hole to rot, but if you are smart about your use, what do I care?

Anyone caught stealing gets a hand chopped off - anyone who's guilty of assault gets their ass beat publicly. Guilty of murder? get an automatic appeal - guilty again? Hang you at noon. Punish these assholes quick/fast/harshly and move on. Sitting around shooting the shiat with their prison buddies on my dime sure isn't rehabilitating them.

Why should we worry about the quality of prisoners life after they go through the system? If you commit a felony, you should have a felony on your record. Also, never underestimate the power of social based shame punishments - i.e. you steal, you lose your hand. After just one generation we would see a dramatic improvement in our levels of crime.

When your punishment system is a revolving door of free food, free medical care, and all the workout time you can handle... is it any wonder people "don't mind" going to prison.
 
2012-10-27 03:10:23 PM  
So we've got the violent revenge fetishists, the "fark em, they're criminals" morons, the authoritarian badge lickers..

..and a very, very tiny minority who sees something wrong here. A lot of you sh*tfu*ckers need to have your heads examined.
 
2012-10-27 03:12:24 PM  

Eddie Ate Dynamite: I understand certain backward-thinking demographics having that attitude, but if you're here posting on FARK I wouldn't think you'd fall into any of them that squarely. Basically, I thought you were cool man.


Not that it would be very reassuring, but this thread looks a lot better after you've checked out the comments under TFA.
 
2012-10-27 03:13:53 PM  
And I messed that up. Point is, a lot of you asshats make me irrationally angry that we inhabit the same planet, and now I'm going to go do something productive with the rest of my day. I hope you get what's coming to you.

/fark you very much james for linking me to this thread
//:)
 
2012-10-27 03:14:06 PM  

SnoopDOhDubbaGee: *Some American prisons won't even admit journalists because the conditions are worse than those depicted in TFA


Oh, like Corcoran State Prison in California, where the guards held "Gladiator Days" pitting members of different gangs against each other, and then shooting them both? Link I guess that's one way to solve overcrowding.

/I served in the Army with an ex-prison guard. Most sadistic person I ever met
 
2012-10-27 03:14:55 PM  

Nem Wan: The concept of liberty...


I don't know about concepts. I do know that my proposed solution will (1) rapidly reduce prison overcrowding, (2) remove violent criminals and thieves from our midst, (3) discourage other potential violent criminals and thieves. In my opinion, that would make our society better.
 
2012-10-27 03:15:36 PM  

accelerus: Anyone caught stealing gets a hand chopped off - anyone who's guilty of assault gets their ass beat publicly. Guilty of murder? get an automatic appeal - guilty again? Hang you at noon. Punish these assholes quick/fast/harshly and move on.


This brilliant idea has never before been tried by any society!
 
2012-10-27 03:16:05 PM  
Who gives a crap about these guys. If they are not getting arse farked every day in jail then they should be happy.

Ohhhh they should be arse farked everyday.
 
2012-10-27 03:16:18 PM  

GAT_00: Generation_D: And I'm supposed to care, why exactly

How can prison rehabilitate in conditions like that? You do realize that's what prison sentences are supposed to do, right?


According to whom? It's nice if it happens but its more correct to say it simply segregates those who can't play nice in society from those who can. Given recidivism rates for most of the crimes calling their time incarcerated "rehabilitation" is just wishful thinking.
 
2012-10-27 03:16:29 PM  

TsukasaK: /fark you very much james for linking me to this thread


We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
2012-10-27 03:17:27 PM  

charmbomb: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [i.dailymail.co.uk image 850x511]

Hope they are careful about which of these fine upstanding young men get released.

I see you are trolling.

A good friend of mine farked up and went to jail. Not a bad kid, just was in a bad way and got caught with a friend with drugs. His friend threw him under the bus for bigger shiat so that he could get off lighter. My friend went in a misguided kid that made a mistake, and came out looking like those guys and had a far bigger view of the world of crime. People learn to be dregs of society in prison, because that's what you have to do to get by.


It's quite amazing how everyone has a story. It's never their fault. And even if it is, well, it's not. And if you disagree, you're trolling. Brilliant!
 
2012-10-27 03:18:08 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: SnoopDOhDubbaGee: *Some American prisons won't even admit journalists because the conditions are worse than those depicted in TFA

Oh, like Corcoran State Prison in California, where the guards held "Gladiator Days" pitting members of different gangs against each other, and then shooting them both? Link I guess that's one way to solve overcrowding.

/I served in the Army with an ex-prison guard. Most sadistic person I ever met


Some of the prisoners mentioned in that article sound pretty sadistic to me.
 
2012-10-27 03:20:12 PM  

Repo Man: The_Original_Roxtar: WAAAAAAH, I JOINED A GANG AND ROBBED PEOPLE, ASSAULTED PEOPLE, AND SOLD DRUGS OF MY OWN FREE WILL AND NOW THEY WON'T LET ME LEAVE THIS PRISON! WAAAAAAH

zero
farks
given

Stupid kid steals a car, get sent up to do hard time in one of our criminal factories. Serves his time, is released, breaks into your apartment, rapes your girlfriend in front of you, and kills you both. Doesn't give a fark. He learned some things in the joint you see, and one of them was that human life has no value at all. But you're ok with that.


Wow. Overwrought rhetoric much? Based on your logic, no one should go to jail because it will just turn them into murdering rapists.
 
2012-10-27 03:20:21 PM  

NFA: In fact my thought is that we need to streamline executions for all known violent gang members. Simply belonging to a violent gang should warrant the death penalty.


So you're in favor sending most cops straight to the gas chamber?
 
2012-10-27 03:21:07 PM  
i don't see any problem here. if a person does drugs and is non violent, they won't get arrested. only the violent ones go to jail.

*scurries off into the corner and grabs popcorn*
 
2012-10-27 03:21:56 PM  

Snowflake Tubbybottom: GAT_00: Generation_D: And I'm supposed to care, why exactly

How can prison rehabilitate in conditions like that? You do realize that's what prison sentences are supposed to do, right?

According to whom? It's nice if it happens but its more correct to say it simply segregates those who can't play nice in society from those who can. Given recidivism rates for most of the crimes calling their time incarcerated "rehabilitation" is just wishful thinking.


THIS.
 
2012-10-27 03:24:02 PM  

darkedgefan: Who gives a crap about these guys. If they are not getting arse farked every day in jail then they should be happy.

Ohhhh they should be arse farked everyday.


I hope you keep the hand lotion nearby when you get excited thinking about prison rape.
 
2012-10-27 03:24:38 PM  
Has anyone pointed out yet that JAIL and PRISON are not the same thing?

Way to go writer.
 
2012-10-27 03:24:58 PM  

MrHelpful: charmbomb: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [i.dailymail.co.uk image 850x511]

Hope they are careful about which of these fine upstanding young men get released.

I see you are trolling.

A good friend of mine farked up and went to jail. Not a bad kid, just was in a bad way and got caught with a friend with drugs. His friend threw him under the bus for bigger shiat so that he could get off lighter. My friend went in a misguided kid that made a mistake, and came out looking like those guys and had a far bigger view of the world of crime. People learn to be dregs of society in prison, because that's what you have to do to get by.

It's quite amazing how everyone has a story. It's never their fault. And even if it is, well, it's not. And if you disagree, you're trolling. Brilliant!


It's a lot easier to just assume everyone gets exactly what they deserve, right?
 
2012-10-27 03:26:58 PM  

MrHelpful: Snowflake Tubbybottom: GAT_00: Generation_D: And I'm supposed to care, why exactly

How can prison rehabilitate in conditions like that? You do realize that's what prison sentences are supposed to do, right?

According to whom? It's nice if it happens but its more correct to say it simply segregates those who can't play nice in society from those who can. Given recidivism rates for most of the crimes calling their time incarcerated "rehabilitation" is just wishful thinking.

THIS.


It's entirely up to us what sort of prison system we have, and to a large degree, how effective it is at either releasing people who can live peacefully in society, or at releasing hopeless sociopaths who come out much worse than they were when they went in.
 
2012-10-27 03:27:53 PM  

MrHelpful: Repo Man: The_Original_Roxtar: WAAAAAAH, I JOINED A GANG AND ROBBED PEOPLE, ASSAULTED PEOPLE, AND SOLD DRUGS OF MY OWN FREE WILL AND NOW THEY WON'T LET ME LEAVE THIS PRISON! WAAAAAAH

zero
farks
given

Stupid kid steals a car, get sent up to do hard time in one of our criminal factories. Serves his time, is released, breaks into your apartment, rapes your girlfriend in front of you, and kills you both. Doesn't give a fark. He learned some things in the joint you see, and one of them was that human life has no value at all. But you're ok with that.

Wow. Overwrought rhetoric much? Based on your logic, no one should go to jail because it will just turn them into murdering rapists.


It's not a complicated concept but since some people seem to be having trouble with it, prison should not turn two bit criminals into murdering rapists, or you know nobody should ever go to prison, that's the ticket.
 
2012-10-27 03:28:50 PM  

PC LOAD LETTER: I truly don't farking care. Don't like it? Don't be a crim.


Three Felonies a Day
 
2012-10-27 03:32:24 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: Has anyone pointed out yet that JAIL and PRISON are not the same thing?

Way to go writer.


talk to many people and they will tell you JAIL = PRISON. i didn't believe that at first. but now i know they are the same thing. cause people say so.
 
2012-10-27 03:34:21 PM  

Generation_D: And I'm supposed to care, why exactly


Because the reason the prisons are filling up is because of all the people who end up there who committed no real crime. Crimes that are simply offenses against the state, like using a drug the state doesn't approve of.

Given the volume of laws and vagueness of many of them, all that separates any of us from prison is the willingness of someone in a government job to put us there.
 
2012-10-27 03:37:33 PM  
Maybe they shouldn't have committed a crime in the first place.

There. I absolved myself of all responsibility for concerning myself with this issue, and I can now put it out of my mind and get back to regular life.
 
2012-10-27 03:40:30 PM  

2wolves: Generation_D: 2wolves: USA: All the justice you can afford.

yep, just like every country anywhere ever. Don't like it? make money.

You can't create a civil society through incarceration.


You are correct, it's done by following the laws of a civil society.
 
2012-10-27 03:40:54 PM  

leadmetal: Crimes that are simply offenses against the state, like using a drug the state doesn't approve of.


California has a large alternative sentencing program. The jails aren't full of people who were just using drugs. The pro-drug people like to pad the statics with people who plea down from more serious charges, people who refuse to comply with the terms of their alternative sentencing, and people who are violating probation/parole terms.
 
2012-10-27 03:45:21 PM  

hulk hogan meat shoes: GriffXX: Man, I wish the Office of Justice stats were more easily sharable from here.

FY 2010 Prisoners entering Federal prison
Offense type N
Violent offenses 2,851
Property offenses 8,144
Drug offenses 24,508
Public-order offenses 5,906
Weapon offenses 8,336
Immigration offenses 21,520
Missing/Unknown 707
Total 71,972

It's not murderers and rapists filling the prison system - it's immigration and drugs. What with crack being exponentially a longer prison sentence than cocaine (I think 17 years vs 1 year, but I can't remember. They just changed it) it's pretty obviously slanted to be a money machine to trap brown and black people.

And I'm sure popular culture has done nothing to dissuade said black people from the actions that cause them to end up in jail. Stop glamorizing gang/thug behavior and watch the prisons empty out.


Yeah - I think it's pretty much pointless to debate this since our focus is so completely different. For me, the real point is the same chemical can put you in jail in different ways which is much more lenient on people that have money for a more refined product. The more expensive refined kind gets you 1 year, the cheaper kind gets you 17+ years. That's like us both being caught for speeding on the freeway and you having 17x the fine because you are driving a cheaper car.
 
2012-10-27 03:45:37 PM  

MrHelpful: Repo Man: The_Original_Roxtar: WAAAAAAH, I JOINED A GANG AND ROBBED PEOPLE, ASSAULTED PEOPLE, AND SOLD DRUGS OF MY OWN FREE WILL AND NOW THEY WON'T LET ME LEAVE THIS PRISON! WAAAAAAH

zero
farks
given

Stupid kid steals a car, get sent up to do hard time in one of our criminal factories. Serves his time, is released, breaks into your apartment, rapes your girlfriend in front of you, and kills you both. Doesn't give a fark. He learned some things in the joint you see, and one of them was that human life has no value at all. But you're ok with that.

Wow. Overwrought rhetoric much? Based on your logic, no one should go to jail because it will just turn them into murdering rapists.


Or maybe a system that doesn't just put those who can be salvaged in with those who cannot. Or any number of the reforms that could easily be instituted to do all that we are able to make incarceration something that actually improves things, rather than making them worse. But if you are happy with the idea of sending in a kid who made a stupid mistake, and releasing an animal who will kill you for looking at him funny without a second thought, our present system is for you.
 
2012-10-27 03:49:44 PM  

Ilmarinen: Today I learned that many Americans like to pay taxes for only 2 things:
1 Wars (already knew that one)
2 Prisoners

/also learned the similarity between those peoples' brains and US prisons: not enough cells



Privately run prisons paid by tax money? Sounds pretty damn good to me. How do I get in on this action?
 
2012-10-27 03:49:51 PM  

Repo Man: Or any number of the reforms that could easily be instituted to do all that we are able to make incarceration something that actually improves things, rather than making them worse.


Like what?
 
2012-10-27 03:50:55 PM  

Pribar: I once spent a week in Marine transient berthing at naval station Philadelphia, when I checked in I wondered why all the doors were heavy steel with holes where they had used torches to cut locks out, my "room" was a 6x8 cell with no lock on the heavy steel door and a bungie cord holding it shut. I asked wtf was up and was told that it used to be the brig, but the Inspector General had ruled it unsafe for prisoners so they transferred them out, removed the locks and made it Marine berthing. So the place was unsafe for prisoners but just dandy for Marines, that told me exactly where the powers that be had us on the food chain...


The fact that you could get out easily at any time--nothing but a bungee cord holding the door shut, right?--probably made the building a lot safer to inhabit than it was when the doors locked from the outside. Fire, flood, earthquake, failure of the ventilation system, whatever, every marine gets up and leaves in a matter of minutes. Doesn't work that way with prisoners.
 
2012-10-27 03:52:02 PM  

Repo Man: MrHelpful: Repo Man: The_Original_Roxtar: WAAAAAAH, I JOINED A GANG AND ROBBED PEOPLE, ASSAULTED PEOPLE, AND SOLD DRUGS OF MY OWN FREE WILL AND NOW THEY WON'T LET ME LEAVE THIS PRISON! WAAAAAAH

zero
farks
given

Stupid kid steals a car, get sent up to do hard time in one of our criminal factories. Serves his time, is released, breaks into your apartment, rapes your girlfriend in front of you, and kills you both. Doesn't give a fark. He learned some things in the joint you see, and one of them was that human life has no value at all. But you're ok with that.

Wow. Overwrought rhetoric much? Based on your logic, no one should go to jail because it will just turn them into murdering rapists.

Or maybe a system that doesn't just put those who can be salvaged in with those who cannot. Or any number of the reforms that could easily be instituted to do all that we are able to make incarceration something that actually improves things, rather than making them worse. But if you are happy with the idea of sending in a kid who made a stupid mistake, and releasing an animal who will kill you for looking at him funny without a second thought, our present system is for you.


I realize you need to believe that most people who go in are "kids who make stupid mistakes" and those who come out are "animals who will kill everyone" however such is not the case. Sorry to break your bubble.
 
2012-10-27 03:52:55 PM  

NFA: These groups exist to protect their members when they sell drugs, steal, rob, burglarize, rape, murder, kidnap, hold and sell sex slaves.


It is a little bit more complicated than that. Violent gangs routinely identify the dudes who have no record. They then force these guys to join the Army or the Marine Corps. Having no record, they get in and do their time in infantry. After their time is up, they go back home and train their bros on military tactics.

Imagine, man, your backyard gang is Army-strong. It's free training for anyone who wants it.
 
2012-10-27 03:53:27 PM  

Repo Man: Or maybe a system that doesn't just put those who can be salvaged in with those who cannot.


That's actually a good idea... so... like... different levels of prison. Where we try to keep the dangerous and incorrigible in certain prisons where we have heightened security... more and taller fences... less inmate freedoms... that kinda thing. Then something at the other end for non-violent and first offender types where they can take classes... even do work outside the prison to learn a skill.

You should write a letter dude... that is a farking excellent idea.
 
2012-10-27 03:54:41 PM  

omgwtfetc: MrHelpful: charmbomb: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [i.dailymail.co.uk image 850x511]

Hope they are careful about which of these fine upstanding young men get released.

I see you are trolling.

A good friend of mine farked up and went to jail. Not a bad kid, just was in a bad way and got caught with a friend with drugs. His friend threw him under the bus for bigger shiat so that he could get off lighter. My friend went in a misguided kid that made a mistake, and came out looking like those guys and had a far bigger view of the world of crime. People learn to be dregs of society in prison, because that's what you have to do to get by.

It's quite amazing how everyone has a story. It's never their fault. And even if it is, well, it's not. And if you disagree, you're trolling. Brilliant!

It's a lot easier to just assume everyone gets exactly what they deserve, right?


Frankly, it's been my experience in life, that's exactly what happens. It's called karma. You should try it some time.
 
2012-10-27 03:59:27 PM  
From another thread, why prisons are overcrowded:
sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net
www.prisonpolicy.org
motherjones.com
 
2012-10-27 04:00:02 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: Repo Man: Or maybe a system that doesn't just put those who can be salvaged in with those who cannot.

That's actually a good idea... so... like... different levels of prison. Where we try to keep the dangerous and incorrigible in certain prisons where we have heightened security... more and taller fences... less inmate freedoms... that kinda thing. Then something at the other end for non-violent and first offender types where they can take classes... even do work outside the prison to learn a skill.

You should write a letter dude... that is a farking excellent idea.


let programmers work telecommute positions within prison
 
2012-10-27 04:03:20 PM  

Dr._Love: From another thread, why prisons are overcrowded:
[sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net image 472x279]
[www.prisonpolicy.org image 534x400]
[motherjones.com image 320x250]


Well, this is the kind of conspiratorial stupidity that makes any kind of discussion about the issue impossible. But keep on dreaming, dude.
 
2012-10-27 04:05:35 PM  
So let me get this straight, prison has become such a unpleasant place that we should stop sending criminals there?

Do you know that the recidivism rates for released prisoners in the United States of America is 60%

If it is so unpleasant, why do the criminals keep making the decision to commit crimes and put themselves back in such a hellish place?
 
2012-10-27 04:06:59 PM  

MrHelpful: omgwtfetc: MrHelpful: charmbomb: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [i.dailymail.co.uk image 850x511]

Hope they are careful about which of these fine upstanding young men get released.

I see you are trolling.

A good friend of mine farked up and went to jail. Not a bad kid, just was in a bad way and got caught with a friend with drugs. His friend threw him under the bus for bigger shiat so that he could get off lighter. My friend went in a misguided kid that made a mistake, and came out looking like those guys and had a far bigger view of the world of crime. People learn to be dregs of society in prison, because that's what you have to do to get by.

It's quite amazing how everyone has a story. It's never their fault. And even if it is, well, it's not. And if you disagree, you're trolling. Brilliant!

It's a lot easier to just assume everyone gets exactly what they deserve, right?

Frankly, it's been my experience in life, that's exactly what happens. It's called karma. You should try it some time.


So can I go ahead and assume you're a white male of a mainstream religious denomination?
 
2012-10-27 04:08:33 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: Repo Man: Or any number of the reforms that could easily be instituted to do all that we are able to make incarceration something that actually improves things, rather than making them worse.

Like what?


Here's just one: eliminate prison rape. There is no excuse for prison rape. No one deserves it (no civilized country punishes people with rape), and if we as a country decided to, it could either be eliminated entirely, or made incredibly rare. It exists because we collectively tolerate it.
 
2012-10-27 04:10:21 PM  

mike0023: Nem Wan: The concept of liberty...

I don't know about concepts. I do know that my proposed solution will (1) rapidly reduce prison overcrowding, (2) remove violent criminals and thieves from our midst, (3) discourage other potential violent criminals and thieves. In my opinion, that would make our society better.


Deterrence is over-sold. People are not rational enough nor do they value their lives enough for that to work. There's a lot of untreated mental illness and addiction combined with people getting shiat on and pissed off. Make people more rational and give their lives more value and deterrence might be more relevant.

A good example of our system not being about deterrence: South Dakota recently executed Eric Robert. Apparently, he had a decent background, education and job, and did volunteer work. He was on his way to being every other middle-aged midwestern white guy. But he had a bad temper with women, acted on it, and committed a kidnapping that got him basically a life sentence. Nobody was killed, but essentially he ended his own life for all practical purposes. Rather than face decades doing nothing in prison, his anger, untreated, turned on the system and he decided to kill a prison guard and either escape or be executed. He didn't seem to care which. He pled guilty and asked to be executed as quickly as possible and the state obliged. Not only was the death penalty not a deterrent, it was his big ticket out here. A game of state-assisted suicide, with a guard's life as the achievement unlocked. Why did this have to happen? This was not a guy who was hopeless until whatever hidden mental illness he had motivated him to commit a serious crime, and our tough-on-crime, no-second-chances system said, "you're done, pal" and took all hope away. He was capable of reasoning and he reasoned he had no reason to put up with this shiat. He went to war to get himself out of prison, and apparently he won. I'm not saying go soft of kidnapping, but when someone is functional except in one area we should be looking at what psychiatry can do. Take crime seriously by seriously trying to FIX it. How much crime is because people's brains are broken in a treatable way? How much crime could be prevented by spending the same money productively? It seems like we almost enjoy making life harder than it has to be so we can get off on watching people go wrong.
 
2012-10-27 04:11:22 PM  

MrHelpful: Dr._Love: From another thread, why prisons are overcrowded:
[sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net image 472x279]
[www.prisonpolicy.org image 534x400]
[motherjones.com image 320x250]

Well, this is the kind of conspiratorial stupidity that makes any kind of discussion about the issue impossible. But keep on dreaming, dude.


You're so right, because monied interests can never have any kind of impact on how society functions,

How stupid of me to suggest that the people who are making a profit off of prisons use a portion of that money to perpetuate and expand the system that enriches them.

How short-sighted to imply that those whose paychecks are derived from the maintenance, incarceration, trail and care of said prisoners would be in moral and financial alignment with the people with and for whom they work.

What a silly, stupid person I must be.

You f*cking coincidence-theorist.
 
2012-10-27 04:12:54 PM  

alwaysjaded: coco ebert:

Well, you're kind of assuming that every country goes through similar phases towards a pinnacle of development, but that's not really true. Every society has its own trajectory. There's no guarantee that the U.S. will keep increasing its wealth and power simply because we're young.

I should have been a little bit clearer. I was mainly talking about the moral issues we're facing and the dying out of all the completely off the rails people we're seeing today. I didn't mean wealth and power cause that is always up in the air since no one can predict the future.


I see. And it's certainly true that no one can predict the future.
 
2012-10-27 04:13:19 PM  

MrHelpful: Dr._Love: From another thread, why prisons are overcrowded:
[sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net image 472x279]
[www.prisonpolicy.org image 534x400]
[motherjones.com image 320x250]

Well, this is the kind of conspiratorial stupidity that makes any kind of discussion about the issue impossible. But keep on dreaming, dude.


Yes, it isn't possible that judges could be corrupted.

As scandals from Wall Street to Washington roil the public trust, the justice system in Luzerne County, in the heart of Pennsylvania's struggling coal country, has also fallen prey to corruption. The county has been rocked by a kickback scandal involving two elected judges who essentially jailed kids for cash. Many of the children had appeared before judges without a lawyer. Video Watch the corruption scandal that is rocking Pennsylvania »

The nonprofit Juvenile Law Center in Philadelphia said Phillip is one of at least 5,000 children over the past five years who appeared before former Luzerne County President Judge Mark Ciavarella.

Ciavarella pleaded guilty earlier this month to federal criminal charges of fraud and other tax charges, according to the U.S. attorney's office. Former Luzerne County Senior Judge Michael Conahan also pleaded guilty to the same charges. The two secretly received more than $2.6 million, prosecutors said.

The judges have been disbarred and have resigned from their elected positions. They agreed to serve 87 months in prison under their plea deals. Ciavarella and Conahan did not return calls, and their attorneys told CNN that they have no comment.

Ciavarella, 58, along with Conahan, 56, corruptly and fraudulently "created the potential for an increased number of juvenile offenders to be sent to juvenile detention facilities," federal court documents alleged. Children would be placed in private detention centers, under contract with the court, to increase the head count. In exchange, the two judges would receive kickbacks.

Pennsylvania rocked by 'jailing kids for cash' scandal
 
2012-10-27 04:15:17 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2012-10-27 04:16:06 PM  

omgwtfetc: MrHelpful: omgwtfetc: MrHelpful: charmbomb: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [i.dailymail.co.uk image 850x511]

Hope they are careful about which of these fine upstanding young men get released.

I see you are trolling.

A good friend of mine farked up and went to jail. Not a bad kid, just was in a bad way and got caught with a friend with drugs. His friend threw him under the bus for bigger shiat so that he could get off lighter. My friend went in a misguided kid that made a mistake, and came out looking like those guys and had a far bigger view of the world of crime. People learn to be dregs of society in prison, because that's what you have to do to get by.

It's quite amazing how everyone has a story. It's never their fault. And even if it is, well, it's not. And if you disagree, you're trolling. Brilliant!

It's a lot easier to just assume everyone gets exactly what they deserve, right?

Frankly, it's been my experience in life, that's exactly what happens. It's called karma. You should try it some time.

So can I go ahead and assume you're a white male of a mainstream religious denomination?


No you can't. But thanks for playing.
 
2012-10-27 04:19:59 PM  

kronicfeld: me texan: Do they deserve better than soldiers in basic training / boot camp?

This reeks of "Waterboarding isn't torture because SEALS are waterboarded as part of their training."


Um, no it doesn't. Seemed like a perfectly valid observation and question to me.
 
2012-10-27 04:20:39 PM  

me texan: Looks about the same as my barracks in basic training, except they have more freedoms apparently. Do they deserve better than soldiers in basic training / boot camp?

/not subby


You did BCT for 10 years locked in a room with 100 other criminals? Your BCT experience was different from mine. I only did 9 weeks, and we got to go outside and do line dancing....they called it D&C...and shoot things, but it was only 9 weeks, not 5,10,20,60 years.
 
2012-10-27 04:21:35 PM  
GOPers love this. Let's hear it for "for profit" prison system. Remember, the true enemy of America is your GOP neighbor.
 
2012-10-27 04:24:03 PM  

MrHelpful: omgwtfetc: MrHelpful: charmbomb: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [i.dailymail.co.uk image 850x511]

Hope they are careful about which of these fine upstanding young men get released.

I see you are trolling.

A good friend of mine farked up and went to jail. Not a bad kid, just was in a bad way and got caught with a friend with drugs. His friend threw him under the bus for bigger shiat so that he could get off lighter. My friend went in a misguided kid that made a mistake, and came out looking like those guys and had a far bigger view of the world of crime. People learn to be dregs of society in prison, because that's what you have to do to get by.

It's quite amazing how everyone has a story. It's never their fault. And even if it is, well, it's not. And if you disagree, you're trolling. Brilliant!

It's a lot easier to just assume everyone gets exactly what they deserve, right?

Frankly, it's been my experience in life, that's exactly what happens. It's called karma. You should try it some time.


As you are apparently too lazy to click:

A giant amount of research has been done since his studies, and most psychologists have come to the same conclusion: You want the world to be fair, so you pretend it is.

"Zick Rubin of Harvard University and Letitia Anne Peplau of UCLA have conducted surveys to examine the characteristics of people with strong beliefs in a just world. They found that people who have a strong tendency to believe in a just world also tend to be more religious, more authoritarian, more conservative, more likely to admire political leaders and existing social institutions, and more likely to have negative attitudes toward underprivileged groups. To a lesser but still significant degree, the believers in a just world tend to 'feel less of a need to engage in activities to change society or to alleviate plight of social victims.'"

The Just-World Fallacy
 
2012-10-27 04:24:14 PM  
www.arizonamedicalmarijuanablog.com
Gary Johnson
www.tokeofthetown.com
End the war on drugs.
Clemency for incarcerated or paroled non-violent drug offenders.
The extra resources can go into rehabilitation of those remaining incarcerated or paroled.
Ancillary crime rates will drop when drugs are decriminalized.
 
2012-10-27 04:27:24 PM  

JerkyMeat: Remember, the true enemy of America is your GOP neighbor.


Liberals are scary...
 
2012-10-27 04:28:48 PM  

Repo Man: MrHelpful: Dr._Love: From another thread, why prisons are overcrowded:
[sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net image 472x279]
[www.prisonpolicy.org image 534x400]
[motherjones.com image 320x250]

Well, this is the kind of conspiratorial stupidity that makes any kind of discussion about the issue impossible. But keep on dreaming, dude.

Yes, it isn't possible that judges could be corrupted.

As scandals from Wall Street to Washington roil the public trust, the justice system in Luzerne County, in the heart of Pennsylvania's struggling coal country, has also fallen prey to corruption. The county has been rocked by a kickback scandal involving two elected judges who essentially jailed kids for cash. Many of the children had appeared before judges without a lawyer. Video Watch the corruption scandal that is rocking Pennsylvania »

The nonprofit Juvenile Law Center in Philadelphia said Phillip is one of at least 5,000 children over the past five years who appeared before former Luzerne County President Judge Mark Ciavarella.

Ciavarella pleaded guilty earlier this month to federal criminal charges of fraud and other tax charges, according to the U.S. attorney's office. Former Luzerne County Senior Judge Michael Conahan also pleaded guilty to the same charges. The two secretly received more than $2.6 million, prosecutors said.

The judges have been disbarred and have resigned from their elected positions. They agreed to serve 87 months in prison under their plea deals. Ciavarella and Conahan did not return calls, and their attorneys told CNN that they have no comment.

Ciavarella, 58, along with Conahan, 56, corruptly and fraudulently "created the potential for an increased number of juvenile offenders to be sent to juvenile detention facilities," federal court documents alleged. Children would be placed in private detention centers, under contract with the court, to increase the head count. In exchange, the two judges would receive kickbacks.
Pennsylvania rocked by 'jailing kids for ca ...


I'm sure there are corrupt judges. And I'm just as sure they're an extremely small minority. What Dr. Love is doing is stating the whole prison system is corrupt and akin to slavery. That's what's so stupid about this. And did you even read the article you linked to? The first example in the story is of a 14 year old who, gasp, was sentenced to a youth detention center and then was taken from his mommy and sent to a "school for troubled teens" for nine months. Something tells me there is a LOT more to that particular story than a "corrupt" judge.
 
2012-10-27 04:29:34 PM  
Yes, the average pot smoker tossed into jail has a body completely covered in tattoos...LOL.

In California good luck finding a cop who will bust someone for smoking pot. Our prisons are still full of scumbags.

The drug war should be ended, but don't think for a minute that these people are all upstanding citizens, who just happened to be caught up...and then decided to have their entire bodies covered in prison tats.

Our society has basically dropped the whole concept of lower/working class people having any morals. I don't blame those folks - they are just following what society teaches them. "do whatever you want! no judgement. no shame. In fact, being a gansta is cool!"

You know, I really shouldn't say "working" class because most of the scumbags don't work. There are plenty of lower class people who do work, and they are the guys who woke up one day with a girlfriend pregnant and instead of just bailing, they find a way to make it work for their kids. I have full respect for those guys. In fact, they need MORE respect from society. But nobody writes rap songs about busting their ass at two jobs so the family has food on their table that doesn't come from Uncle Sam.
 
2012-10-27 04:29:46 PM  

GAT_00: Generation_D: And I'm supposed to care, why exactly

How can prison rehabilitate in conditions like that? You do realize that's what prison sentences are supposed to do, right?


Wrong. The "convicted people are scum" crowd don't give a sh*t whether people are "rehabilitated", they just want the state to appease their twisted sense of "justice" by punishing those who may have broken the law.
This belief is most prominent in those who get boners when someone mentions the death penalty... putting someone to death isn't going to bring their victim back, it's simply a means of revenge against that person sanctioned by the state.


EnderX: So let me get this straight, prison has become such a unpleasant place that we should stop sending criminals there?

Do you know that the recidivism rates for released prisoners in the United States of America is 60%

If it is so unpleasant, why do the criminals keep making the decision to commit crimes and put themselves back in such a hellish place?


Because for some of them, with no possibility of a job or a life with any sense of normality, prison could actually be a more attractive alternative. This may be difficult to understand for someone who has never been convicted of a crime, but my brother has worked for the local department of corrections for over 20 years, and has to deal with people like this every day. He sees them back again and again, and the main reason is that society doesn't want them, even after they have served their time. They have no where else to be.

Even with all the advantages the average non-convicted citizen has, it's still a b*tch out here. Trying to find a job that pays enough to live on, a place to live with no credit record, and so on is tough for anyone... now add to that a felony conviction and your chances just went from 50/50 to "you gotta be sh*ttin' me!"
 
2012-10-27 04:30:25 PM  

MrHelpful: omgwtfetc: MrHelpful: omgwtfetc: MrHelpful: charmbomb: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [i.dailymail.co.uk image 850x511]

Hope they are careful about which of these fine upstanding young men get released.

I see you are trolling.

A good friend of mine farked up and went to jail. Not a bad kid, just was in a bad way and got caught with a friend with drugs. His friend threw him under the bus for bigger shiat so that he could get off lighter. My friend went in a misguided kid that made a mistake, and came out looking like those guys and had a far bigger view of the world of crime. People learn to be dregs of society in prison, because that's what you have to do to get by.

It's quite amazing how everyone has a story. It's never their fault. And even if it is, well, it's not. And if you disagree, you're trolling. Brilliant!

It's a lot easier to just assume everyone gets exactly what they deserve, right?

Frankly, it's been my experience in life, that's exactly what happens. It's called karma. You should try it some time.

So can I go ahead and assume you're a white male of a mainstream religious denomination?

No you can't. But thanks for playing.


Then what is it that gives you so much confidence that the world is just and equitable?
 
2012-10-27 04:31:46 PM  

Repo Man: Here's just one: eliminate prison rape. There is no excuse for prison rape. No one deserves it (no civilized country punishes people with rape), and if we as a country decided to, it could either be eliminated entirely, or made incredibly rare. It exists because we collectively tolerate it.


We don't tolerate it. Just how big of a problem do you this it is?

Unless you keep everyone in shackles all the time or isolated in cells there's a risk of bad things happening. There are a lot of bad people in prison.
 
2012-10-27 04:34:19 PM  

EnderX: So let me get this straight, prison has become such a unpleasant place that we should stop sending criminals there?

Do you know that the recidivism rates for released prisoners in the United States of America is 60%

If it is so unpleasant, why do the criminals keep making the decision to commit crimes and put themselves back in such a hellish place?


In Norway, with its 21-year-max rehabilitation system, recidivism is 20%. They fix people and they stay fixed.

Americans identify with punishment more than healing. If we believe criminals are irredeemably bad we can believe we who are not them are incorruptible and entitled. Admitting other people are similar but for quantifiable and mostly adjustable circumstances is offensive.
 
2012-10-27 04:34:42 PM  

omgwtfetc: MrHelpful: omgwtfetc: MrHelpful: omgwtfetc: MrHelpful: charmbomb: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [i.dailymail.co.uk image 850x511]

Hope they are careful about which of these fine upstanding young men get released.

I see you are trolling.

A good friend of mine farked up and went to jail. Not a bad kid, just was in a bad way and got caught with a friend with drugs. His friend threw him under the bus for bigger shiat so that he could get off lighter. My friend went in a misguided kid that made a mistake, and came out looking like those guys and had a far bigger view of the world of crime. People learn to be dregs of society in prison, because that's what you have to do to get by.

It's quite amazing how everyone has a story. It's never their fault. And even if it is, well, it's not. And if you disagree, you're trolling. Brilliant!

It's a lot easier to just assume everyone gets exactly what they deserve, right?

Frankly, it's been my experience in life, that's exactly what happens. It's called karma. You should try it some time.

So can I go ahead and assume you're a white male of a mainstream religious denomination?

No you can't. But thanks for playing.

Then what is it that gives you so much confidence that the world is just and equitable?


Are you honestly suggesting that the only people who think the world is "just and equitable" are white religious guys? Wow.
 
2012-10-27 04:35:34 PM  
The first example in the story is of a 14 year old who, gasp, was sentenced to a youth detention center and then was taken from his mommy and sent to a "school for troubled teens" for nine months. Something tells me there is a LOT more to that particular story than a "corrupt" judge.

Sentenced to a private facility by a judge who has since been convicted of receiving kickbacks for sentencing kids to private facilities. This is a blatant illustration of the conflict of interest inherent in for profit prisons/detention centers.
 
2012-10-27 04:38:08 PM  

Nem Wan: If we believe criminals are irredeemably bad we can believe we who are not them are incorruptible and entitled. Admitting other people are similar but for quantifiable and mostly adjustable circumstances is offensive.


Liberal BS.
 
2012-10-27 04:40:16 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: Has anyone pointed out yet that JAIL and PRISON are not the same thing?

Way to go writer.


Exactly. Not sure why a picture from a county jail was included in an article about prison overcrowding. Granted jails have overcrowding too, but most inmates have yet to be convicted of a crime.
 
2012-10-27 04:41:25 PM  
I still can't get my head around the dichotomy that people who highly value freedom think that others who participate in activities which affect no one but themselves should be sent to prison.

But then I've never been good at doublethink, which is one of the reasons I'm not conservative.
 
2012-10-27 04:42:01 PM  
The majority of the people in those photos would vote for Democrats.

If they could vote.

//Make of that what you will...

///I'm just sayin'
 
2012-10-27 04:43:25 PM  

mike0023: Nem Wan: If we believe criminals are irredeemably bad we can believe we who are not them are incorruptible and entitled. Admitting other people are similar but for quantifiable and mostly adjustable circumstances is offensive.

Liberal BS.


And... how?
 
2012-10-27 04:43:30 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: Repo Man: Or maybe a system that doesn't just put those who can be salvaged in with those who cannot.

That's actually a good idea... so... like... different levels of prison. Where we try to keep the dangerous and incorrigible in certain prisons where we have heightened security... more and taller fences... less inmate freedoms... that kinda thing. Then something at the other end for non-violent and first offender types where they can take classes... even do work outside the prison to learn a skill.

You should write a letter dude... that is a farking excellent idea.


Don't they already have those? In theory, at least?. Or were you being facetious?
 
2012-10-27 04:43:52 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: Repo Man: Here's just one: eliminate prison rape. There is no excuse for prison rape. No one deserves it (no civilized country punishes people with rape), and if we as a country decided to, it could either be eliminated entirely, or made incredibly rare. It exists because we collectively tolerate it.

We don't tolerate it. Just how big of a problem do you this it is?

Unless you keep everyone in shackles all the time or isolated in cells there's a risk of bad things happening. There are a lot of bad people in prison.


If we don't tolerate it, then why is it so common?

The Bureau of Justice Statistics confirmed this human rights crisis last month. It says that nearly one in 10 prisoners report having been raped or sexually assaulted by other inmates, staff or both.

That's why the release of a separate report by the National Prison Rape Elimination Commission, which was created by Congress in 2003, is so important. It challenges our society to take seriously a problem that has ruined many lives.

The website of the health and human rights organization Just Detention International (JDI) tells some of the inmates' troubling stories.

"While I was in an Arkansas state prison, I was raped by at least 27 different inmates over a nine-month period," said Bryson Martel Spruce, a bisexual former inmate. "I don't have to tell you that it was the worst nine months of my life."

Spruce contracted HIV as a result of the attacks. "Standards are needed to protect people like me," he said before he died in 2010.


USA Today, Nightmare of prison rape
 
2012-10-27 04:45:11 PM  

Nem Wan: In Norway, with its 21-year-max rehabilitation system, recidivism is 20%. They fix people and they stay fixed.


Maybe they aren't as "broken" when they go in. Are they better educated, able to find gainful employment when the come out?


The most successful programs that keep people from re-offending are jobs programs. Unfortunately the days are gone when someone with on high-school diploma or less can get out of jail and find a job that will pay a decent wage. And since they pretty much do background checks for even the most menial jobs these days someone with a record is going to be hard pressed to turn his life around even if he is willing. And when they are offered jobs, like picking crops most of them quit.
 
2012-10-27 04:45:17 PM  

Nem Wan: mike0023: Nem Wan: If we believe criminals are irredeemably bad we can believe we who are not them are incorruptible and entitled. Admitting other people are similar but for quantifiable and mostly adjustable circumstances is offensive.

Liberal BS.

And... how?


He couldn't understand the large words you were using, or the structure those words were placed in...
 
2012-10-27 04:46:07 PM  

mike0023: Nem Wan: If we believe criminals are irredeemably bad we can believe we who are not them are incorruptible and entitled. Admitting other people are similar but for quantifiable and mostly adjustable circumstances is offensive.

Liberal BS.


thats 2 "liberals are..." in one thread, guess what, I don't have to look at you any more. ignored. bye.
 
2012-10-27 04:46:53 PM  

rustypouch: I still can't get my head around the dichotomy that people who highly value freedom think that others who participate in activities which affect no one but themselves should be sent to prison. But then I've never been good at doublethink, which is one of the reasons I'm not conservative.


You say that conservatives are "people who highly value freedom." But then you say that you are not a conservative. Does that mean you do not value freedom? Or are you just confused?
 
2012-10-27 04:48:02 PM  
In PA there are a good number of people in for 3-6 months for missing child support payments because they were in for 3-6 months for missing child support payments.
Yard was often cancelled because the gym was full of cots and day rooms were usually off limits for the same reason.

The violent criminals and thieves were the vast minority.

touchers and rapists usually got immediate probation, so there's that.
 
2012-10-27 04:48:25 PM  

Bathia_Mapes: Pray 4 Mojo: Has anyone pointed out yet that JAIL and PRISON are not the same thing?

Way to go writer.

Exactly. Not sure why a picture from a county jail was included in an article about prison overcrowding. Granted jails have overcrowding too, but most inmates have yet to be convicted of a crime.


Bathia_Mapes: Pray 4 Mojo: Has anyone pointed out yet that JAIL and PRISON are not the same thing?

Way to go writer.

Exactly. Not sure why a picture from a county jail was included in an article about prison overcrowding. Granted jails have overcrowding too, but most inmates have yet to be convicted of a crime.


This is why:

Ordered by the United States Supreme Court to reduce severe overcrowding in its prisons, California began redirecting low-level offenders to local jails last October in a shift called realignment. Its prison population, the nation's largest, has since fallen by more than 16 percent to 120,000 from 144,000; it must be reduced to 110,000 by next June.

Counties with already tight budgets are scrambling to house the influx of newcomers in facilities that were never designed to accommodate inmates serving long sentences, like a man who began serving 15 years for fraud recently in the Fresno jail.

In California, County Jails Face Bigger Load
 
2012-10-27 04:51:31 PM  

Generation_D: mike0023: Nem Wan: If we believe criminals are irredeemably bad we can believe we who are not them are incorruptible and entitled. Admitting other people are similar but for quantifiable and mostly adjustable circumstances is offensive.

Liberal BS.

thats 2 "liberals are..." in one thread, guess what, I don't have to look at you any more. ignored. bye.


Keep reinforcing that bubble!
 
2012-10-27 04:52:22 PM  

Repo Man: The first example in the story is of a 14 year old who, gasp, was sentenced to a youth detention center and then was taken from his mommy and sent to a "school for troubled teens" for nine months. Something tells me there is a LOT more to that particular story than a "corrupt" judge.

Sentenced to a private facility by a judge who has since been convicted of receiving kickbacks for sentencing kids to private facilities. This is a blatant illustration of the conflict of interest inherent in for profit prisons/detention centers.


What about the "not for profilt" prisons which most are? Oh, wait, I know...they're ALL for profit because of the "industrial prison complex", right? Sheesh.
 
2012-10-27 04:55:25 PM  

mike0023: Generation_D: mike0023: Nem Wan: If we believe criminals are irredeemably bad we can believe we who are not them are incorruptible and entitled. Admitting other people are similar but for quantifiable and mostly adjustable circumstances is offensive.

Liberal BS.

thats 2 "liberals are..." in one thread, guess what, I don't have to look at you any more. ignored. bye.

Keep reinforcing that bubble!


You too!
 
2012-10-27 04:58:54 PM  
Awwww poor cwiminuls.

You broke the law. You don't get to use it anymore.
 
2012-10-27 04:59:23 PM  

Repo Man: If we don't tolerate it, then why is it so common?


It's not when you look at the numbers. For certain groups, homosexuals, and women, it is much higher.
 
2012-10-27 05:00:03 PM  

MrHelpful: Oh, wait, I know...they're ALL for profit because of the "industrial prison complex", right? Sheesh.


So, serious question, why do you dismiss this as it's some kind of laughable joke? Are you seriously implying there isn't a lot of damned money in the corrections business?
 
2012-10-27 05:02:45 PM  
Pribar
my "room" was a 6x8 cell with no lock on the heavy steel door and a bungie cord holding it shut. I asked wtf was up and was told that it used to be the brig, but the Inspector General had ruled it unsafe for prisoners so they transferred them out, removed the locks and made it Marine berthing. So the place was unsafe for prisoners but just dandy for Marines, that told me exactly where the powers that be had us on the food chain...

Well, there's unsafe as in "health hazards" or "the place is breaking down",
unsafe as in "the room size will work for one person staying for a week, but not for three persons staying for a year" and
unsafe as in "keep people who don't want to be there from escaping or hurting themselves or someone else".
 
2012-10-27 05:04:08 PM  
The people who shout most loudly about living in a free society are always the ones happiest to see as many of their fellow citizens in jail. I had a girl who worked for me at the store I managed, she'd been convicted for shoplifting when she was 13, then pumped gas not realizing her debit card had expired. I came to pay her ten bucks, but the cops were called by then and had already charged her for theft. She was sentenced to three years in the Nebraska women's prison. The gas station owner just wanted to make someone's life unpleasant. Teenagers regularly go to buy their beer there, and sure enough he was caught selling to a minor. He's in the paper the next day saying how it was entrapment and that 'Merca ain't no free country anymore.
 
2012-10-27 05:05:32 PM  

TsukasaK: MrHelpful: Oh, wait, I know...they're ALL for profit because of the "industrial prison complex", right? Sheesh.

So, serious question, why do you dismiss this as it's some kind of laughable joke? Are you seriously implying there isn't a lot of damned money in the corrections business?


I'm seriously implying that none of this rises to the level of a conspiracy that some people (thankfully a very small number) seem to think it does.
 
2012-10-27 05:08:03 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: Repo Man: If we don't tolerate it, then why is it so common?

It's not when you look at the numbers. For certain groups, homosexuals, and women, it is much higher.


So gays and women who are subjected to unconsensual sex are skewing the numbers? Because we should only worry about about straight men being subjected to unwanted homosexual sex?

These people are in prison/jail. Every aspect of their lives is supposed to be under control of the facility in which they are housed. If someone commits a crime, we expect that person to serve their sentence. As a society, we have an obligation to make sure that they are not subjected to sexual enslavement when they are doing so. If we decided to, resources could be committed that would make it very rare. Or we could continue with the status quo, where guards sometimes use it as a tool for discipline.
 
2012-10-27 05:08:56 PM  

MrHelpful: TsukasaK: MrHelpful: Oh, wait, I know...they're ALL for profit because of the "industrial prison complex", right? Sheesh.

So, serious question, why do you dismiss this as it's some kind of laughable joke? Are you seriously implying there isn't a lot of damned money in the corrections business?

I'm seriously implying that none of this rises to the level of a conspiracy that some people (thankfully a very small number) seem to think it does.


It isn't a conspiracy; it's right out in the open, plain for all to see.
 
2012-10-27 05:09:35 PM  

r1niceboy: The people who shout most loudly about living in a free society are always the ones happiest to see as many of their fellow citizens in jail.


I don't see an inconsistency. One's freedom can be impinged upon by the government (through taxes, regulations, etc.) or by criminals. Both pose a danger to freedom, both should be kept in check.
 
2012-10-27 05:10:51 PM  

TsukasaK: MrHelpful: Oh, wait, I know...they're ALL for profit because of the "industrial prison complex", right? Sheesh.

So, serious question, why do you dismiss this as it's some kind of laughable joke? Are you seriously implying there isn't a lot of damned money in the corrections business?


They're kinda like red-light camera companies...
 
2012-10-27 05:11:46 PM  

CapeFearCadaver: ill.

You should write a letter dude... that is a farking excellent idea.

Don't they already have those? In theory, at least?. Or were you being facetious?


I was being a smart-arse... but I like your word better. Classy!
 
2012-10-27 05:12:05 PM  

PC LOAD LETTER: I truly don't farking care. Don't like it? Don't be a crim.


Or black.
 
2012-10-27 05:12:44 PM  

mike0023: rustypouch: I still can't get my head around the dichotomy that people who highly value freedom think that others who participate in activities which affect no one but themselves should be sent to prison. But then I've never been good at doublethink, which is one of the reasons I'm not conservative.

You say that conservatives are "people who highly value freedom." But then you say that you are not a conservative. Does that mean you do not value freedom? Or are you just confused?


That may have been poorly phrased.

Perhaps 'conservatives are people who claim to highly value freedom' is better. But then their actions don't agree with their words.

Also, valuing freedom is not exclusive to any one group. I could draw a Venn diagram, but those require a hint of education to understand.
 
2012-10-27 05:15:04 PM  

mike0023: r1niceboy: The people who shout most loudly about living in a free society are always the ones happiest to see as many of their fellow citizens in jail.

I don't see an inconsistency. One's freedom can be impinged upon by the government (through taxes, regulations, etc.) or by criminals. Both pose a danger to freedom, both should be kept in check.


This. Exactly this.

Can I mail you a beer or something?
 
2012-10-27 05:16:11 PM  
I am supposed to care about this why? Those deadbeat, don't give a fark, no life, good for nothing wart on the ass of society criminals don't even need all that they are getting now. Food, a shytter, and a cot, in a very dark cell is all they NEED!!. They are there for a reason, not a vacation.
 
2012-10-27 05:16:16 PM  
mike0023
rustypouch:
I still can't get my head around the dichotomy that people who highly value freedom think that others who participate in activities which affect no one but themselves should be sent to prison. But then I've never been good at doublethink, which is one of the reasons I'm not conservative.

You say that conservatives are "people who highly value freedom." But then you say that you are not a conservative. Does that mean you do not value freedom? Or are you just confused?


No, it just means you pretend not to understand basic logic (or you really don't).
 
2012-10-27 05:21:30 PM  

Repo Man: So gays and women who are subjected to unconsensual sex are skewing the numbers? Because we should only worry about about straight men being subjected to unwanted homosexual sex?


Yes they are skewing the numbers, and the numbers in the survey are much higher than similar surveys. I'm concerned about everyone but prison rape isn't turning all petty criminals into remorseless killing machines.
 
2012-10-27 05:34:59 PM  
MrHelpful
"What Dr. Love is doing is stating the whole prison system is corrupt and akin to slavery. That's what's so stupid about this."

Actually, i just said corruption and glad-handing were responsible for "why prisons were overcrowded." I have yet to be disabused of this notion - you have yet to link to any citation that would disprove or even alleviate this statement, you have yet to put forth a preponderance of logically-consistent philosophy why what I was saying is "conspiratorial stupidity".

Our prison system does treat people like slaves.
The expansion of that system is linked to the profit made by private incarceration and forced labor of same.
There manifestly are plentiful examples of corruption within that system.

What exactly do you not get here?

gabrielcity.com
 
2012-10-27 05:40:43 PM  

Nem Wan: A good example of our system not being about deterrence: South Dakota recently executed Eric Robert. Apparently, he had a decent background, education and job, and did volunteer work. He was on his way to being every other middle-aged midwestern white guy. But he had a bad temper with women, acted on it, and committed a kidnapping that got him basically a life sentence. Nobody was killed, but essentially he ended his own life for all practical purposes.


Wait... so... not sure I understand the point... is there some issue with a guy who habitually beats women and wasn't smart enough to pull off the kidnap, rape and murder of an 18yo girl getting a long sentence?
 
2012-10-27 05:49:05 PM  
My political views are fairly liberal but not when it comes to this. 2nd felony conviction should earn a scumbag a couple whacks in the head with this
encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
and a trip to the fertilizer plant.
 
2012-10-27 05:51:05 PM  

Dr._Love: MrHelpful
"What Dr. Love is doing is stating the whole prison system is corrupt and akin to slavery. That's what's so stupid about this."

Actually, i just said corruption and glad-handing were responsible for "why prisons were overcrowded." I have yet to be disabused of this notion - you have yet to link to any citation that would disprove or even alleviate this statement, you have yet to put forth a preponderance of logically-consistent philosophy why what I was saying is "conspiratorial stupidity".

Our prison system does treat people like slaves.
The expansion of that system is linked to the profit made by private incarceration and forced labor of same.
There manifestly are plentiful examples of corruption within that system.

What exactly do you not get here?

[gabrielcity.com image 764x532]


Epic chart. I just KNEW agri-business was behind the whole thing.
 
2012-10-27 05:51:22 PM  

wyltoknow: Happy Hours: It would be interesting to get the perspective of people who had both been through boot camp and a prison like this. I've not been to either one, but if you gave me a choice of a prison as pictured or boot camp, I think I'd take boot camp.

On that Lockdown show, when they did Sheriff Joe's prison, I vaguely remember that one of the inmates they interviewed from Tent City had served in Iraq. I believe he said it was tremendously worse in prison.


What else would he say?
 
2012-10-27 05:54:19 PM  
I have still never heard a valid reason for why ex-felons (or even incarcerated felons) being disallowed from voting is remotely constitutional.
 
2012-10-27 06:00:09 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: Nem Wan: A good example of our system not being about deterrence: South Dakota recently executed Eric Robert. Apparently, he had a decent background, education and job, and did volunteer work. He was on his way to being every other middle-aged midwestern white guy. But he had a bad temper with women, acted on it, and committed a kidnapping that got him basically a life sentence. Nobody was killed, but essentially he ended his own life for all practical purposes.

Wait... so... not sure I understand the point... is there some issue with a guy who habitually beats women and wasn't smart enough to pull off the kidnap, rape and murder of an 18yo girl getting a long sentence?


Holy shiat. I missed that. WTF? Oh, the poor guy, he just had a bad temper with women and acted on it... It was her own fault anyways, am I right? Acting all hoity toity like she deserved to live a drama free life that she controlled her own self, eh?

DV survivor. fark anyone who wants to give abusers any more false justifications than what they give themselves.
 
2012-10-27 06:02:23 PM  

me texan: Looks about the same as my barracks in basic training, except they have more freedoms apparently. Do they deserve better than soldiers in basic training / boot camp?

/not subby


Are soldiers forceably doing each other in the butt a lot more than the public knows about in the army? Scary.
 
2012-10-27 06:02:33 PM  

Generation_D: thats 2 "liberals are..." in one thread, guess what, I don't have to look at you any more. ignored. bye.


Why are you complaining about people making fun of liberals?

Generation_D: And I'm supposed to care, why exactly


You aren't a liberal.
 
2012-10-27 06:05:01 PM  

Daniels: I have still never heard a valid reason for why ex-felons (or even incarcerated felons) being disallowed from voting is remotely constitutional.


If you can't abide by your society's rules, you don't get to participate in the way your society is run. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
 
2012-10-27 06:07:40 PM  

Daniels: I have still never heard a valid reason for why ex-felons (or even incarcerated felons) being disallowed from voting is remotely constitutional.


Uhhh... how 'bout... 'cause the Supreme Court said it is.

That good enough?
 
2012-10-27 06:15:13 PM  

CapeFearCadaver: Pray 4 Mojo: Nem Wan: A good example of our system not being about deterrence: South Dakota recently executed Eric Robert. Apparently, he had a decent background, education and job, and did volunteer work. He was on his way to being every other middle-aged midwestern white guy. But he had a bad temper with women, acted on it, and committed a kidnapping that got him basically a life sentence. Nobody was killed, but essentially he ended his own life for all practical purposes.

Wait... so... not sure I understand the point... is there some issue with a guy who habitually beats women and wasn't smart enough to pull off the kidnap, rape and murder of an 18yo girl getting a long sentence?

Holy shiat. I missed that. WTF? Oh, the poor guy, he just had a bad temper with women and acted on it... It was her own fault anyways, am I right? Acting all hoity toity like she deserved to live a drama free life that she controlled her own self, eh?

DV survivor. fark anyone who wants to give abusers any more false justifications than what they give themselves.


Trying not to slam Nem Wan for "defending the guy"... 'cause I'm not sure what the point was. But yes... read the case of this guy. Impersonating a police officer... pulls over an 18yo girl... throws her in her own trunk... then realizes he didn't take her phone and she's in there dialing 911. Caught a short time later... rope, shovel, mattress etc in the back of his truck. An ex GF testified at his trial that he beat her frequently and viciously... and even came back to her house and assaulted her after she had finally left him. Dude didn't murder a prison guard to get a death sentence... he did it because he's violent and dangerous.
 
2012-10-27 06:15:37 PM  
Here's the solution:

1. Get rid of the privatized prison industry. Put the top 10% of the profiteers/stockholders in a special slave-labor camp in northern Alaska and give the evil motherfarkers a taste of their own medicine. You might also want to put a silver stake through zombie Reagan's heart to keep that Nazi bastard from coming back from the grave.

2. Put in a clear and unambiguous amendment to the Constitution acknowledging every American's right to privacy and make all laws governing private, consensual behavior unconstitutional. After that, any congresscritter who tries to make a law outlawing victimless behavior is automatically guilty of treason against the Constitution and is tarred and feathered before getting life without parole.

3. With the removal of consensual crime laws and the privatized prison industry, America's incarceration rate should fall to normal. Prisons should be clean and safe so that some guy who's in for a minor crime isn't murdered by a lifer. As for luxuries like cable TV or conjugal visits, they have to be earned by exceptionally good behavior.

4. Hard-assed law-and-order types who think that the legal system never makes mistakes and who believe that somebody should be jailed for smoking pot should be officially declared to be Nazi dickheads and laughed at uproariously by their neighbors.

5. Former members of the Drug Enforcement Agency, except for low-level clerks, should be set on fire and launched by trebuchet into the ocean.
 
2012-10-27 06:15:53 PM  
mike0023: If you can't abide by your society's rules, you don't get to participate in the way your society is run. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

I'm fairly certain the Constitution doesn't say that.

Pray 4 Mojo: Uhhh... how 'bout... 'cause the Supreme Court said it is.

That good enough?


No? I don't know which decision validated that position.
 
2012-10-27 06:16:46 PM  

mike0023: r1niceboy: The people who shout most loudly about living in a free society are always the ones happiest to see as many of their fellow citizens in jail.

I don't see an inconsistency. One's freedom can be impinged upon by the government (through taxes, regulations, etc.) or by criminals. Both pose a danger to freedom, both should be kept in check.


Yet it's the government (local, usually) jailing people overzealously, and the freedom lovers looking the other way. Someone does something stupid, they should be punished or forced to offer recompense. Jail is to remove people from society, partly to punish them, mostly to protect us from their criminal ways. Someone who made a mistake in pumping ten bucks worth of gas when their card didn't work, or was caught with a joint, or was busted for prostitution, aren't jailed because they're a danger to society. Too often they're jailed because a judge or DA has his eyes set on higher office, or because there's money to be made from locking them up. People get treated worse than drug traffickers because they can't afford a defense attorney.
 
2012-10-27 06:22:50 PM  

r1niceboy: mike0023: r1niceboy: The people who shout most loudly about living in a free society are always the ones happiest to see as many of their fellow citizens in jail.

I don't see an inconsistency. One's freedom can be impinged upon by the government (through taxes, regulations, etc.) or by criminals. Both pose a danger to freedom, both should be kept in check.

Yet it's the government (local, usually) jailing people overzealously, and the freedom lovers looking the other way. Someone does something stupid, they should be punished or forced to offer recompense. Jail is to remove people from society, partly to punish them, mostly to protect us from their criminal ways. Someone who made a mistake in pumping ten bucks worth of gas when their card didn't work, or was caught with a joint, or was busted for prostitution, aren't jailed because they're a danger to society. Too often they're jailed because a judge or DA has his eyes set on higher office, or because there's money to be made from locking them up. People get treated worse than drug traffickers because they can't afford a defense attorney.


I basically agree with you. In my proposed solution to the prison overcrowding problem (see above) I specifically referred to thieves and violent criminals. That takes care of the prostitute and the dopehead. The person with the malfunctioning credit card would not be convicted of theft (he has a vaild defense).
 
2012-10-27 06:23:05 PM  

Psycat: 2. Put in a clear and unambiguous amendment to the Constitution acknowledging every American's right to privacy and make all laws governing private, consensual behavior unconstitutional. After that, any congresscritter who tries to make a law outlawing victimless behavior is automatically guilty of treason against the Constitution and is tarred and feathered before getting life without parole.


Whatever. You can scream all you want to about how drug dealers (yes dealers, our prisons aren't full of marijuana smokers) shouldn't be in prison but they actually support drug laws until they get caught. They are the reasons for the profits. They are high risk high reward.
 
2012-10-27 06:24:28 PM  

Daniels: No? I don't know which decision validated that position.


Seriously?

Let me get you started
 
2012-10-27 06:30:11 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: An ex GF testified at his trial that he beat her frequently and viciously... and even came back to her house and assaulted her after she had finally left him.


Good. Glad that asshole's going to fry. The above quoted is exactly what got my ex in trouble; he didn't like me leaving him so he busted in my front door, neighbor heard my screams about 30 minutes in and came running over with his glock.
 
2012-10-27 06:30:17 PM  
To reiterate, people should not be in prison for smoking pot or any other private, consensual behavior. For white-collar crimes, I think the criminal should be put under house arrest and be forced to pay triple restitution to his victims. Real prison should be for violent offenders. The ones who behave themselves get a minimum-security lock-up. The real bad boys get life without parole in a maximum-security prison. Even then, prison should be safe, clean and the real assholes who can't control themselves even under tight supervision get thrown into solitary confinement.

Also, I don't believe in 'time off with good behavior'. Barring any extraordinary circumstances, a 10-year sentence should be 10 years. If anything, prisoners should get more time for bad behavior.

If somebody dodges a guilty verdict for say, murder, by claiming insanity, they should get life without parole in a hospital for the criminally insane. I also think that it's bullshiat for accused criminals to avoid prosecution by claiming they were incapacitated by alcohol or other drugs--they consented to taking the intoxicants in the first place. Also, if some alcoholic commits murder while in a blackout, it's probably not the first time he's blacked out and gotten violent, so he should be 100% accountable.

Also, if somebody commits murder and there's no mitigating circumstances like self-defense or mercy killing, the sentence should automatically be life without parole.

Finally, the main reason I'm opposed to the death penalty is that the criminal justice system screws up a lot. Cops and judges aren't really any more infallible than you or I. It's hard to apologize to a corpse of an innocent person who was railroaded by a farked-up judicial system. I think that life without parole is pretty brutal, much more than a quick and painless lethal injection.
 
2012-10-27 06:31:58 PM  
Liberal California is one if the worst offenders. The residents don't really care though. It is easier to blame bush.
 
2012-10-27 06:32:38 PM  
So? I would seriously be ok with chaining them up four to a cell; one per wall.

Let's make prison a deterrant again.
 
2012-10-27 06:35:29 PM  

CapeFearCadaver: Pray 4 Mojo: An ex GF testified at his trial that he beat her frequently and viciously... and even came back to her house and assaulted her after she had finally left him.

Good. Glad that asshole's going to fry. The above quoted is exactly what got my ex in trouble; he didn't like me leaving him so he busted in my front door, neighbor heard my screams about 30 minutes in and came running over with his glock.


He's dead already. Went real peaceful. Or not... I don't really care. Dude told the judge 'execute me or I'll kill again'... so... he won the prize. I'm not a pro-death penalty type person... but I have no issues with the State killing pieces of shiat that have asked for the service. Far as I'm concerned... they should have sign up sheets posted around the prisons.
 
2012-10-27 06:35:52 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: Whatever. You can scream all you want to about how drug dealers (yes dealers, our prisons aren't full of marijuana smokers) shouldn't be in prison but they actually support drug laws until they get caught. They are the reasons for the profits. They are high risk high reward.


That's what is so stupid about the War on Non-Corporate Drugs. We've created a system where uneducated cretins can make more money in an hour selling crack than some law-abiding engineer can make in a month of designing aircraft.

I do agree, though, that the drug dealers are in support of the WoD because they'd be broke without it. It's basically a lottery to them; make a ton of money selling coke in exchange for the slight probability of getting three hots and a cot if they do get caught. Basically, it's an unholy alliance between the legal drug industry, the illegal drug industry, and the privatized prison industry. If you support the never-ending WoD yourself, don't ever expect things to change...
 
2012-10-27 06:36:13 PM  
He said "constitutional" not 'morally justifiable'.

States have always tradtiionally held that power, except where specifically overridden by the constitution (and even in the latter, they've fought like hell to deny certain people the right to vote).

There is no constitutional ammendment that extends franchise rights to felons, even with a broad interpreation. The 15th is closest, and it specifically refers to race and history of slavery.

The closest you could aruge that forced labor in prison makes them slaves and thus come under the 15th, but that would involve one heck fo a stretch (as well as the courts actually ruling labor in prison slavery, which would make it illegal anyway).

Of course IMNAL (and IMNAA).
 
2012-10-27 06:39:47 PM  

TheHopeDiamond: So? I would seriously be ok with chaining them up four to a cell; one per wall.

Let's make prison a deterrant again.


Is this just for murderers and serial rapists, or do you advocate chaining up people in prison for being late on child support, growing a few pot plants, or being one of those few unfortunate people who actually got jail time for an overdue library book?

And, remember, the worse you make prison, the less some criminal stands to lose if he simply murders the first cop through his front door...
 
2012-10-27 06:40:38 PM  

TheHopeDiamond: So? I would seriously be ok with chaining them up four to a cell; one per wall.

Let's make prison a deterrant again.


Why stop there? Bring back crucifixion!
 
2012-10-27 06:42:01 PM  

Generation_D: 2wolves: Generation_D: 2wolves: USA: All the justice you can afford.

yep, just like every country anywhere ever. Don't like it? make money.

You can't create a civil society through incarceration.

Who said anything about creating a civil society? Drug users are already the ones that effed up badly enough to either kill someone over a drug deal, or get caught using because they couldn't control their own habit or use properly without getting caught or attracting attention to themselves.

I get it, you want to use, thats fine man, go ahead I have no problem with it.

But the rules say you are supremely effed if you use and get caught. So what do you do? Give in to poor impulse control, or learn to fit your vices around the current effed up legal system?

We all make our own choices.


Enjoy footing the bill, dumbass. You can hate and look down on drug users all you want, at the end of the day you pay their rent and food. If you prefer that to actually helping or rehabilitating them, more power to you.
 
2012-10-27 06:46:52 PM  

Nemo's Brother: Liberal California is one if the worst offenders. The residents don't really care though. It is easier to blame bush.


One of the big problems with CA is that virtually everyone who gets out of prison is put on parole, even if they served their full sentence. Then one violation can land you back in the joint for a long time. A failed drug test, associating with known gang members, even if they are family members or your close friends, can get you in trouble.
 
2012-10-27 06:48:54 PM  

Repo Man: Why stop there? Bring back crucifixion!


In Merrie Olde England, they hanged criminals for the crime of pick-pocketing. What's ironic is that there were plenty of pick-pockets working the crowds at these hangings.

If you start burning criminals at the stake for say, mugging, then the criminals have nothing to lose by beating their victims to death before stealing their wallet--if anything, they'd have one less witness to their crime.

Yes, my gut instinct is to see truly malevolent assholes like John Wayne Gacy hooked up to a torture machine and put through an immense amount of agony before being burned alive. However, I don't support such a position because you know damned well it will be used on innocent people or maybe some black guy in Texas caught with a couple of joints in his pocket...
 
2012-10-27 06:52:56 PM  

Nrokreffefp: Enjoy footing the bill, dumbass. You can hate and look down on drug users all you want, at the end of the day you pay their rent and food. If you prefer that to actually helping or rehabilitating them, more power to you.


There are lots of non-incarcerating ways for criminal users to get help if they want it. They choose not to.

/disagrees with the "War on Drugs"
//disagrees with tax funded treatment
///let 'em use all they want, I don't care
////"B'b'but what if one robs you then!?!?!"
 
2012-10-27 06:58:56 PM  

Nem Wan: EnderX: So let me get this straight, prison has become such a unpleasant place that we should stop sending criminals there?

Do you know that the recidivism rates for released prisoners in the United States of America is 60%

If it is so unpleasant, why do the criminals keep making the decision to commit crimes and put themselves back in such a hellish place?

In Norway, with its 21-year-max rehabilitation system, recidivism is 20%. They fix people and they stay fixed.


Can you really make the comparison?

Does Norway have the same ingrained violence-worshipping gang culture that America has? Does it have the level of poverty? Does it have the same problems with guns and drugs?

If not, you simply can't compare the two. At all.

Gang members are scum. Even left liberals won't give them a hug. So you will have a really hard time showing pictures of what are clearly hardened gang members and attempting to illicit sympathy. From anyone. Yeah, they have rights. They should be treated decently. But if they're not, people aren't going to lose sleep over it. If you want prison reform these are not the guys to be waving in front of the camera.

And no, once again these guys will not suddenly become legitimate businessmen if drugs are legalised. They'll just find some other infamy to make money from.
 
2012-10-27 06:59:31 PM  

Psycat: If you support the never-ending WoD yourself, don't ever expect things to change...


Well the crime rate has been falling. I don't think people are in a big hurry to change that, in CA they are going to vote on adjusting the 3 strikes law so that it applies to violent felons.
 
2012-10-27 07:04:59 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: ... but I have no issues with the State killing pieces of shiat that have asked for the service. Far as I'm concerned... they should have sign up sheets posted around the prisons.


Agreed. There are some people who've shown they have no value to any human society. Sociopaths, for instance.
 
2012-10-27 07:05:37 PM  

if_i_really_have_to: Gang members are scum. Even left liberals won't give them a hug. So you will have a really hard time showing pictures of what are clearly hardened gang members and attempting to illicit sympathy. From anyone. Yeah, they have rights. They should be treated decently. But if they're not, people aren't going to lose sleep over it. If you want prison reform these are not the guys to be waving in front of the camera.


If you hate gang members so much, why do you support a system that allows them to make billions in illicit drug money? Hell, they're probably the biggest supporters of the War on Drugs because they'd be making minimum wage without it. Their worst nightmare is that the American public is going to pull their collective heads out of their butts and legalize (or decriminalize) drugs. Doesn't it bother you that some illiterate Crackhead Willie is making more in an hour selling drugs than you make in a week working your job?


And no, once again these guys will not suddenly become legitimate businessmen if drugs are legalised. They'll just find some other infamy to make money from.


Legalize prostitution and make gambling universally legal, and what else do they have to sell? Extortion and murder-for-hire aren't exactly booming industries, and even if they were, it's hard to buy assault rifles without the huge 15000% profit margin from drugs.

So, do you support the status quo? You know, the same system that has failed for over FORTY FARKING YEARS? Well, if you do, I'm sure there's a few Mexican cartel overlords who would love to thank you for keeping them in business...
 
2012-10-27 07:06:07 PM  

Psycat: Even then, prison should be safe, clean and the real assholes who can't control themselves even under tight supervision get thrown into solitary confinement.


I was with you until the last bit. If you think someone is a real asshole, you haven't seen shiat until you break their mind.

Solitary is nothing less than torture under a more innocent sounding name.
 
2012-10-27 07:08:34 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: Well the crime rate has been falling. I don't think people are in a big hurry to change that, in CA they are going to vote on adjusting the 3 strikes law so that it applies to violent felons.


I'm not sure what point you're making. Are you implying that modifying the Three Strikes Law will completely undo the damage of the WoD?
 
2012-10-27 07:10:13 PM  

GAT_00: Generation_D: And I'm supposed to care, why exactly

How can prison rehabilitate in conditions like that? You do realize that's what prison sentences are supposed to do, right?


The idea that prisons rehabilitate is laughable. Looking at the percent of repeaters it's obvious that rehabilitation does not occur or isn't effective. It doesn't help that most jobs require a background check and a criminal record often means the person doesn't get the job. So any training or rehabilitation that a prisoner receives is lost because they can't get a job when they get out.

It prisons are supposed to rehabilitate or even deter why do the pictures seem to reflect that most of the time is recreational or 'hang out' time. I'd think a prison rehabilitating prisoners would mean prisoners in classrooms completing their GEDs and then maybe trade training. The other big use of time should be work. Many American's work 8-10 hours per day and asking a prisoner to do the same isn't cruel. The ultra low pay jobs in place now are an issue. Pay should be minimum wage or above, 50% of the minimum wage should go to pay for room and board. If the person has children or dependents on any type of government assistance then 25% goes toward that. The remainder goes toward an annuity to help them when they are released. Most of the above costs are accounting tricks and wouldn't really cost the taxpayer anything since they already pay those costs.

The last issues is what to do with prisoners on release. High unemployment means lots of job applicants and criminals will still be bottom of the list. Sorry but I think Veterans and law-abiding citizens should get a job first.

For conditions inside prisons, what is wrong with barrack like conditions? After 10 hours of work and another 6 hours or meals/training/movement then most people will basically crash and go to bed.
 
2012-10-27 07:12:29 PM  

TsukasaK: I was with you until the last bit. If you think someone is a real asshole, you haven't seen shiat until you break their mind.

Solitary is nothing less than torture under a more innocent sounding name.


I agree that solitary is brutal, but what else do you do with a violent lifer in a maximum-security prison who keeps assaulting and murdering other prisoners? Solitary is slightly more humane than tying them up Hannibal Lector style. Do you have a better idea what to do with violent lifers who can't go a single day without beating the shiat out of other prisoners?
 
2012-10-27 07:15:40 PM  

GAT_00: Ah, I see the 'criminals are subhuman' crowd is already here.


Yeah. They don't usually hide from 'criminals are saints' crowd much.
 
2012-10-27 07:16:53 PM  

Happy Hours: One thing nobody here has asked is why we incarcerate so many more people than any other nation in the world.

Are people in the US that much more likely to be criminals?

Does every other country not punish crime that should be punished?

Anyone?


The other countries kill more people for lesser crimes.
 
2012-10-27 07:21:58 PM  

Benjimin_Dover: Happy Hours: One thing nobody here has asked is why we incarcerate so many more people than any other nation in the world.

Are people in the US that much more likely to be criminals?

Does every other country not punish crime that should be punished?

Anyone?

The other countries kill more people for lesser crimes.


Do you honestly believe that explains why Italy, Norway, Canada, Germany, France, Great Britain, and so many other western countries have lower rates of incarceration?
 
2012-10-27 07:22:32 PM  

Psycat: TsukasaK: I was with you until the last bit. If you think someone is a real asshole, you haven't seen shiat until you break their mind.

Solitary is nothing less than torture under a more innocent sounding name.

I agree that solitary is brutal, but what else do you do with a violent lifer in a maximum-security prison who keeps assaulting and murdering other prisoners? Solitary is slightly more humane than tying them up Hannibal Lector style. Do you have a better idea what to do with violent lifers who can't go a single day without beating the shiat out of other prisoners?


Death Race

/problem solved.
 
2012-10-27 07:25:31 PM  

Benjimin_Dover: GAT_00: Ah, I see the 'criminals are subhuman' crowd is already here.

Yeah. They don't usually hide from 'criminals are saints' crowd much.


And that's one thing that really sucks about Fark and human nature in general--they tend to fall for the black-or-white, false dichotomy sort of thinking and don't care that Reality is much more nuanced than that. As in...

criminals are saints vs. criminals are subhuman

100% liberalism is good vs. 100% conservatism is good

nature vs. nurture

absolute totalitarianism vs. absolute anarchy

Certs is a breath mint vs. Certs is a candy mint

This kind of thinking annoys me. Makes me want to knock heads together and say, "Ever consider that maybe Certs is both a breath mint AND a candy mint? Y'know, a quantum duality thingie like how a photon can be both a wave and a particle?"
 
2012-10-27 07:28:58 PM  

Repo Man: Do you honestly believe that explains why Italy, Norway, Canada, Germany, France, Great Britain, and so many other western countries have lower rates of incarceration?


I agree with you, but you might want to take Italy off of that list there. Their Judicial System is infamously corrupted to the umpth degree.
 
2012-10-27 07:29:57 PM  

Psycat: I'm not sure what point you're making. Are you implying that modifying the Three Strikes Law will completely undo the damage of the WoD?


I'm saying not everyone is convinced that there was been "damage", also modifying the three strikes laws will make it more reasonable to the general public given their experience with it over almost 20 years. CA has also modified it's marijuana possession laws so don't expect much more than that anytime soon.
 
2012-10-27 07:30:48 PM  

Benjimin_Dover: GAT_00: Ah, I see the 'criminals are subhuman' crowd is already here.

Yeah. They don't usually hide from 'criminals are saints' crowd much.


Who's saying that criminals are saints?
 
2012-10-27 07:34:16 PM  

rustypouch: Benjimin_Dover: GAT_00: Ah, I see the 'criminals are subhuman' crowd is already here.

Yeah. They don't usually hide from 'criminals are saints' crowd much.

Who's saying that criminals are saints?


People who really hate saints?
 
2012-10-27 07:40:13 PM  

NFA: Seeing at all those tattooed gang members who are likely there because they're too violent to be on the streets, DID NOT elicit ANY compassion from me.

In fact my thought is that we need to streamline executions for all known violent gang members. Simply belonging to a violent gang should warrant the death penalty. These groups exist to protect their members when they sell drugs, steal, rob, burglarize, rape, murder, kidnap, hold and sell sex slaves. I say we as a nation stop being a bunch of pussies and begin to systematically wipe out this growing criminal paradigm. If you don't think it's a growing problem in the US, go live in Juarez Mexico and see what our future holds.


This person (NFA) exemplifies one of the big reasons why the war on drugs isnt going away. Propaganda works. According to NFA, selling drugs is on par with rape, murder and kidnapping.

I've met victims of rape and kidnapping, talked to surviving family members of murder victims. Never met a victim of a drug purchase.

\queue those idiots and their mental gymnastics of how selling drugs hurts people because of the secondary and tertiary effects without even considering those same secondary and tertiary effects of any other substance; ie alcohol, prescription meds, firearms, etc.
 
2012-10-27 07:42:26 PM  

Lt_Ryan: I'd think a prison rehabilitating prisoners would mean prisoners in classrooms completing their GEDs and then maybe trade training.


They have those programs. The fact is a GED doesn't carry much weight in today's job market, and trade training, you are going to have to compete with 50 others for the same job, and those people don't have criminal records. We send job overseas and tolerate and encourage illegal immigration and then we wonder why we can't employ ex-cons at entry level, low skill jobs.

I'm not delusional and think that every ex-con will turn straight when given the opportunity, in fact in know it is not the case, but there are some people who want to go straight but when they can't get a job what do we expect.
 
2012-10-27 07:42:30 PM  
I mostly stayed clear of the threads about waterboarding, and torture in general a few years back, but I'm sure the Venn diagram for the supporters of torture, and the "The way to solve the crime problem is to get tougher" is mostly overlapped. The unstated assumption in both cases is that these things work, and the only thing stopping us are liberals that love terrorists/criminals. But the evidence against torture is that every expert will tell you that is does not work (at least, to gather reliable intelligence - it's great if you just love sadism). And in the case of crime and punishment, the experts in the relevant fields of study will say the same about extremely punitive sentences and conditions. Not only are these things wrong morally, they don't even achieve the stated goal! But people love vengeance, and will support anything that gives them their revenge fix on even the slightest to outright non existent evidence.

After WW-1, a very punitive treaty against Germany helped create the conditions that led to WW-2. The urge to "Teach Germany a lesson" ended up creating another global conflagration. Thankfully, that lesson was learned by the close of WW-2, and the axis nations were helped to rebuild rather than punished. I guess we have a way to go to apply that lesson to individuals.
 
2012-10-27 07:42:41 PM  

James F. Campbell: PC LOAD LETTER: I truly don't farking care. Don't like it? Don't be a crim.

I had you marked as a liberal. I'm disappointed to discover you're actually a law-worshipping authoritarian.


I am not a liberal. I am mostly anti-conservative. This is where "mostly" lives.
 
2012-10-27 07:44:49 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: Death Race

/problem solved.


Yup, a totally practical solution that will be implemented any day now. Like my plan to decide presidential elections by thumb wrestling...
 
2012-10-27 07:46:14 PM  

GAT_00: Ah, I see the 'criminals are subhuman' crowd is already here.


Apparently Tattooing is the industry to be in, if (a) you're in prison and (b) you need extra cigarette money

Seriously, don't start nothing won't be nothing. If you can't do the time don't do the crime. Prison is supposed to make you hate it so much you'll walk the straight and narrow to keep from going back.
 
2012-10-27 07:50:32 PM  

Repo Man: And in the case of crime and punishment, the experts in the relevant fields of study will say the same about extremely punitive sentences and conditions. Not only are these things wrong morally, they don't even achieve the stated goal!


Don't achieve the stated goal, how do you figure. One of the goals of incarceration is keep society safe, a very small % of people are responsible for most of the violent crime. Keep these individuals locked up longer keeps these career criminals from victimizing more people.
 
2012-10-27 07:57:23 PM  

Psycat: Benjimin_Dover: GAT_00: Ah, I see the 'criminals are subhuman' crowd is already here.

Yeah. They don't usually hide from 'criminals are saints' crowd much.

And that's one thing that really sucks about Fark and human nature in general--they tend to fall for the black-or-white, false dichotomy sort of thinking and don't care that Reality is much more nuanced than that. As in...

criminals are saints vs. criminals are subhuman

100% liberalism is good vs. 100% conservatism is good

nature vs. nurture

absolute totalitarianism vs. absolute anarchy

Certs is a breath mint vs. Certs is a candy mint

This kind of thinking annoys me. Makes me want to knock heads together and say, "Ever consider that maybe Certs is both a breath mint AND a candy mint? Y'know, a quantum duality thingie like how a photon can be both a wave and a particle?"


I prefer life savers wint-o- green they spark in the dark
 
2012-10-27 08:01:32 PM  
Well...good to see there aren't many people who have ever had to suffer the loss of a loved one to the prison system or been there themselves. God forbid you ever get caught with your pants down and can't afford the cost of an attorney; convictions are mostly about how much $ you're able to throw at the situation to make it go away. It's not fair and it can be excessive. And behind every inmate is a family that loves and misses that person that are suffering as well.

Not everyone in jail is in there for a violent crime; there are plenty of victimless offenders just serving time. And it seems like my loved one is in the actual small minority in there for a marijuana conviction but the fact that it even still happens like that anymore is ridiculous; not only did they convict him, they got him evicted by threatening prosecution on the landlord if he didn't comply with the eviction. Seriously? That's supposed to be justice?

I saw how easily they have convicted loved ones of mine for minor offenses and railroaded them, and I can only imagine how much worse that really is for people who aren't white. "Justice" is not distributed equally enough to warrant punishing EVERYONE as if they were all rapists, murderers, and child molesters.
 
2012-10-27 08:04:11 PM  

NFA: Seeing at all those tattooed gang members who are likely there because they're too violent to be on the streets, DID NOT elicit ANY compassion from me.

In fact my thought is that we need to streamline executions for all known violent gang members. Simply belonging to a violent gang should warrant the death penalty. These groups exist to protect their members when they sell drugs, steal, rob, burglarize, rape, murder, kidnap, hold and sell sex slaves. I say we as a nation stop being a bunch of pussies and begin to systematically wipe out this growing criminal paradigm. If you don't think it's a growing problem in the US, go live in Juarez Mexico and see what our future holds.


I've been through basic and I've worked in prison. That guy is an asshole troll. First, basic lasts 8 weeks, prison tends to be several years. Second, no one tries to rape you in basic. Third, you are not under the threat of physical violence in basic. Fourth, you receive a pay check while in basic. Fifth, at any point you can leave basic under a "failure to adapt" clause. Sixth, you are not restricted to your barracks 23 hours a day. Seventh, you don't get m-16s in prison. Eighth, and most important of all, basic is filled with activities from the time you wake up until lights out. The mind-numbing boredom of prison is one of the key factors of it's punishment. As I said, that guy is a dick and really just wants to be a cockbag. He's from texas, so I guess I'm stating the obvious.
 
2012-10-27 08:12:34 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: Repo Man: And in the case of crime and punishment, the experts in the relevant fields of study will say the same about extremely punitive sentences and conditions. Not only are these things wrong morally, they don't even achieve the stated goal!

Don't achieve the stated goal, how do you figure. One of the goals of incarceration is keep society safe, a very small % of people are responsible for most of the violent crime. Keep these individuals locked up longer keeps these career criminals from victimizing more people.


In case you haven't noticed, this thread is full of people advocating all sorts of torture, capital punishments, etc. Mandatory minimums, very popular in the 80's, reflected the popularity of this sort of thinking. Rather than making drug dealing go away, sending every two bit drug dealer to do hard time resulted in a much worse class of criminals. Prison culture became the culture of the street. In general, they went in bad, and they came out worse.

Our prisons aren't overcrowded because we are keeping the incorrigible away from the rest of us.
 
2012-10-27 08:25:54 PM  
After reading through much of the thread it seems clear to me that one side of the issue is represented by logic, facts and rationale and the other side is arguing from a position of emotion (essentially fear).

And if people have learned anything from the war on drugs and terrorism it's that emotion trumps logic every time. The rational people are not getting involved enough.

\All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
 
2012-10-27 08:26:54 PM  

Repo Man: Our prisons aren't overcrowded because we are keeping the incorrigible away from the rest of us.


Again, the crime rates are falling, keeping criminals off the streets. Almost every expert who tries to explain the drop in the crime rate gives longer sentencing credit, the only difference is how much. Anyone who finds the elusive combination of keeping people out of prison and turning prisoners into productive citizens deserves a national holiday, but there are no easy answers or we would be doing it.
 
2012-10-27 08:31:37 PM  

Repo Man: DrewCurtisJr: Repo Man: And in the case of crime and punishment, the experts in the relevant fields of study will say the same about extremely punitive sentences and conditions. Not only are these things wrong morally, they don't even achieve the stated goal!

Don't achieve the stated goal, how do you figure. One of the goals of incarceration is keep society safe, a very small % of people are responsible for most of the violent crime. Keep these individuals locked up longer keeps these career criminals from victimizing more people.

In case you haven't noticed, this thread is full of people advocating all sorts of torture, capital punishments, etc. Mandatory minimums, very popular in the 80's, reflected the popularity of this sort of thinking. Rather than making drug dealing go away, sending every two bit drug dealer to do hard time resulted in a much worse class of criminals. Prison culture became the culture of the street. In general, they went in bad, and they came out worse.

Our prisons aren't overcrowded because we are keeping the incorrigible away from the rest of us.


Prison should be awful enough that anyone that leaves it never wants to come back... while also providing opportunity to those interested to educate and better themselves for a better shot at life when they are released. Prison can be punishment, deterrent and rehabilitative all at the same time. And that is exactly what he have now.

Our prisons are overcrowded because we have an entire industry around the "war on drugs" that, if ended, would damage a lot of micro and macro economies... and not just in this country.

Legalize, control and tax drugs... and leave the prisons for those that fark with the lives and property of law abiding citizens. My sympathy meter for those convicts remains at 0... and I see no reason why it should rise.
 
2012-10-27 08:31:55 PM  

seapig: Not everyone in jail is in there for a violent crime; there are plenty of victimless offenders just serving time. And it seems like my loved one is in the actual small minority in there for a marijuana conviction but the fact that it even still happens like that anymore is ridiculous; not only did they convict him, they got him evicted by threatening prosecution on the landlord if he didn't comply with the eviction. Seriously? That's supposed to be justice?


If I were the King of the World, every jackass who thinks people should be in prison for non-violent offenses would themselves be given ten years, which is about how long it would take for these knuckleheads to get a clue.

The real driving force behind many of the witch hunts in medieval Europe was the Catholic Church trying to take away property from the growing middle class. That's why so many of those burned at the stake were of the new merchant class--there's not much to steal from peasants.

The real reason behind locking people up for growing a few pot plants has NOTHING to do with public health and everything to do with guaranteeing profits for Big Pharma, Big Tobacco, Big Booze, the privatized prison industry, the DEA, the prison guard unions and--most of all--the drug kingpins themselves who never get caught and make billions off the WoD. It's the low-level dealers, many of whom are just trying to pay the rent by selling an occasional sack, who suffer the brunt of our stupid WoD.


I saw how easily they have convicted loved ones of mine for minor offenses and railroaded them, and I can only imagine how much worse that really is for people who aren't white. "Justice" is not distributed equally enough to warrant punishing EVERYONE as if they were all rapists, murderers, and child molesters.


The main reason I'm against capital punishment is that far too many innocent people get railroaded by a corrupt legal system. I think that we should throw a lot more corrupt judges and cops in prison--they should be held to much higher standards than the rest of us because they have so damned much power. I really don't have faith in any system of Earthly justice--I personally knew some POS who literally got away with murdering a little girl, and there were at least two times that some black dude in Texas got a brutally heavy punishment (20+ years) for simple pot possession. I would absolutely love it if there were such a thing as karma or if there were a Judgment Day where people were actually judged for their behavior and not their church affiliation...
 
2012-10-27 08:35:01 PM  

Frederick: After reading through much of the thread it seems clear to me that one side of the issue is represented by logic, facts and rationale


Thanks. At least somebody sees it.
 
2012-10-27 08:38:24 PM  

Dr._Love: MrHelpful
"What Dr. Love is doing is stating the whole prison system is corrupt and akin to slavery. That's what's so stupid about this."

Actually, i just said corruption and glad-handing were responsible for "why prisons were overcrowded." I have yet to be disabused of this notion - you have yet to link to any citation that would disprove or even alleviate this statement, you have yet to put forth a preponderance of logically-consistent philosophy why what I was saying is "conspiratorial stupidity".

Our prison system does treat people like slaves.
The expansion of that system is linked to the profit made by private incarceration and forced labor of same.
There manifestly are plentiful examples of corruption within that system.

What exactly do you not get here?

[gabrielcity.com image 764x532]


That chart is such bullshiat and I can't believe you're that stupid to believe it:

The STATE pays everything. The lawyers to prosecute. The representation for the accused (they can't afford lawyers most of the time). All the people overseeing the prison from the warden down to the lowly secretary is a state worker (all Unionized).

CA wastes BILLIONS of dollars on these lowlifes. As has been pointed out earlier, less than 1% of the inmates in CA state prisons are there for non-MJ related crimes.

Inmates make things like soap, detergent, and do the laundry. How much profit is in those industries???
Want to talk slave labor? Inmates fight over these jobs. It's time out of the yard for one thing, and the jobs aren't difficult to do.

Educate yourself with REAL WORLD experience, not some stupid chart.
 
2012-10-27 08:39:42 PM  
PS: "non-MJ related crimes" should be MJ (as in cannabis) related crimes.
 
2012-10-27 08:41:42 PM  

Psycat: If I were the King of the World, every jackass who thinks people should be in prison for non-violent offenses would themselves be given ten years, which is about how long it would take for these knuckleheads to get a clue.


Bernie Madoff... Ken Lay... etc... they never violented anybody... no prison for them?

Psycat: The real reason behind locking people up for growing a few pot plants has NOTHING to do with public health and everything to do with guaranteeing profits for Big Pharma, Big Tobacco, Big Booze, the privatized prison industry, the DEA, the prison guard unions and--most of all--the drug kingpins themselves who never get caught and make billions off the WoD. It's the low-level dealers, many of whom are just trying to pay the rent by selling an occasional sack, who suffer the brunt of our stupid WoD.


Exactly this.

Psycat: The main reason I'm against capital punishment is that far too many innocent people get railroaded by a corrupt legal system.


This as well... I have no moral qualms about capital punishment. I just think it's silly to assume that our system can be 100% accurate... ever.
 
2012-10-27 08:51:00 PM  

Psycat: If I were the King of the World, every jackass who thinks people should be in prison for non-violent offenses would themselves be given ten years,


I've been held up at gun point when I was working the cash register (violent crime), and if they caught the guy I think he should have done some time. I was a little shaken up but I recovered in a few hours. Some people steal the life savings of people who are 70 and will never be able to recover 50+ years of hard work. Non-violent but I think deserve 10x the sentence of a robber, both for the intent and the callousness of the crime.
 
2012-10-27 08:53:33 PM  
Does any sane person on Fark (all 3 of us) ever think that our system of justice is perfect? That no murderer has gotten away with it because of wealth or judicial incompetence? That no innocent person was ever railroaded by a corrupt system?

I think the desire for justice is just as strong a motivating factor in religious belief as the desire for eternal life. If I had the unshakable conviction that justice will ultimately triumph, I'd sleep easier at night.

Personally, I love the idea of karma, that every good or bad deed will ultimately come back to the doer. And this isn't just an Eastern concept; a lot of pagan and folk belief systems teach that 'what goes around, comes around' or otherwise that you'll be paid back for everything you do. Wiccans have the concept of the Law of Thrice Return where everything you do comes back in triplicate.

With karma, justice may extend over several reincarnations. If some evil person is living well in this lifetime, it's because he's going to get payback in the next one; if some good person is suffering badly in this life, he's paying off a karmic debt from a former life. If John Wayne Gacy got off lightly in this world, it just means that he's going to be brutally tortured and murdered for the next 33 incarnations and have a close friend or family member murdered in the next several hundred incarnations.

Then there's the idea of a Judgment Day. I like the pagan version in which one's sins are put in one pan, one's good deeds in the next, and the tilt of the scales determines his or her eternal fate. A refinement is that the degree that the scales tilt in one direction or another dictates the height of heaven or depth of hell the person gets.

The Christian version of Judgment Day nauseates me. It has nothing to do with being good or bad and everything to do with whether or not you stroke Jesus' monstrous ego. Josef Stalin, who murdered tens of millions, can repent on his death bed and go straight to heaven without a single moment's punishment. A saintly non-Christian like Gandhi can devote his life to doing good and will still burn in hell. Some of the more brutal denominations of Christianity believe that non-baptized infants and even aborted/miscarried fetuses are now burning in hell. That's why I think the evil bastard Jehovah, if he exists, should be the first person sent to the fires of hell...
 
2012-10-27 08:54:19 PM  
The thought of having to spend the next 15 years dealing with someone like this on a daily basis quickly ended any criminial aspirarations I had.
i79.photobucket.com
 
2012-10-27 08:58:10 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: Bernie Madoff... Ken Lay... etc... they never violented anybody... no prison for them?


Oops, I didn't state that one well. I really meant to write "victimless" instead of "non-violent". I do think Madoff and Lay do deserve to be punished thoroughly. Since they're basically non-violent, I don't think they should be sent to a maximum-security prison. They should be forced to work their butts off in a minimum-security lockup until they've paid double or triple restitution to their victims.
 
2012-10-27 09:00:09 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: I've been held up at gun point when I was working the cash register (violent crime), and if they caught the guy I think he should have done some time. I was a little shaken up but I recovered in a few hours. Some people steal the life savings of people who are 70 and will never be able to recover 50+ years of hard work. Non-violent but I think deserve 10x the sentence of a robber, both for the intent and the callousness of the crime.


I stated it wrong. I really was thinking "victimless" instead of "non-violent". I do realize that swindlers and other white-collar criminals can do a lot of damage to other people...
 
2012-10-27 09:03:48 PM  

Onkel Buck: The thought of having to spend the next 15 years dealing with someone like this on a daily basis quickly ended any criminial aspirarations I had.
[i79.photobucket.com image 280x210]


That's racist.
 
2012-10-27 09:04:52 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: Onkel Buck: The thought of having to spend the next 15 years dealing with someone like this on a daily basis quickly ended any criminial aspirarations I had.
[i79.photobucket.com image 280x210]

That's racist.


Arg. You beat me to it!
 
2012-10-27 09:07:43 PM  
Now you know the liters frustration when we open a new greenlight with 30 posts in it already that stole all the funny.

/Racism is not funny though.
//Mostly.
 
2012-10-27 09:08:45 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: That's racist.


I know you're being snarky, but let me play Devil's Advocate anyways. Maybe it's not the skin pigmentation that makes the guy scary; maybe it's the serious muscles, the angry look on the prisoner's face, and even the inside-out shirt with the sleeves ripped off usually indicates somebody with a bad attitude. And maybe he's in prison in the first place for smashing in some honky's skull...
 
2012-10-27 09:08:51 PM  

Psycat: The real reason behind locking people up for growing a few pot plants has NOTHING to do with public health and everything to do with guaranteeing profits for Big Pharma, Big Tobacco, Big Booze, the privatized prison industry, the DEA, the prison guard unions and--most of all--the drug kingpins themselves who never get caught and make billions off the WoD. It's the low-level dealers, many of whom are just trying to pay the rent by selling an occasional sack, who suffer the brunt of our stupid WoD.

...

The main reason I'm against capital punishment is that far too many innocent people get railroaded by a corrupt legal system. I think that we should throw a lot more corrupt judges and cops in prison--they should be held to much higher standards than the rest of us because they have so damned much power. I really don't have faith in any system of Earthly justice--I personally knew some POS who literally got away with murdering a little girl, and there were at least two times that some black dude in Texas got a brutally heavy punishment (20+ years) for simple pot possession. I would absolutely love it if there were such a thing as karma or if there were a Judgment Day where people were actually judged for their behavior and not their church affiliation...


Low level dealers, yes. And these cops actually say "oh these are BAD guys"...no they're not. Most of the guys I've ever known who have moved some drugs to supplement their work income were nice, normal guys; guys with kids, who weren't violent, crazy, Scarface-like kingpins out in the street seeking blood for justice! It's so stupid to simplify it to "oh well if you can't do the time, don't do the crime!"...it's not that easy! So many people have no idea what it's like to be in utter poverty and willing to do whatever it takes to get the hell out of it, even if it means taking a little risk to make more money than you can doing literally ANYTHING else. And those are just the guys on the bottom, being happy with THEIR little take from the score. Like you said, think of how much the guys on the top are getting.

As for the police and judges being held to a higher standard, yes, I agree entirely. Their word is taken at face value in court proceedings, they hold people's lives and futures in their hand and if they decide to use that power unjustly, and get caught, then they deserve to have the book thrown at them. Look at that woman in MA, who was messing up all the drug samples and now pretty much EVERYTHING her lab touched is now in question...meaning a lot of people will probably be getting out of jail or getting a charge expunged from their record. Which is another big reason it upsets me so much to see politicians and bankers and all these public officials either getting a slap on the wrist or no conviction at all (having robbed people for millions and billions of dollars, sexually assaulted children, abusing the system in any and every conceivable way!), and yet they suffer no time in prison; but a guy (probably at the very end of his rope and in desperate need of psychiatric care) who holds up a liquor store gets 10 years. There is no sense of justice in this country. And like I had said before, it basically boils down to how much money any one person has to throw at their legal troubles as to whether or not it actually sticks to them.

But I am also against capital punishment because I don't think it is EVER worth it if even ONE innocent guy winds up dead,,,and I shudder to think of how many already have. There should be some sort of standard of proof; like you have to be 100% sure that the inmate committed the crime before they should even be considered for the death penalty. If there is even 1 tiny shred of doubt as to whether or not this person did it, then it shouldn't happen. But evidence can be fabricated, lies are always told in a criminal investigation, and police work is often sloppy. So even WITH a certain "standard", I wouldn't trust our officials to carry out their job in an objective, fair, and judicious manner.

One poster said they'd prefer if things were like they were in Scandinavia, where the prisons are more like "rehab-hotels" and I very much agree with that sentiment. Prisons do nothing but rob people of their time and keep them in a state of simply being "alive/conscious"; if we ever really want to get to the root of crime, then we need to really assess and help our prison population and address the problems at the very heart of it all, which is more often than not just extreme poverty...when you live far enough below the poverty line, ANY fate seems like a better one than continuing to be that farking poor anymore.
 
2012-10-27 09:12:56 PM  
STOP BREAKING THE LAW ASSHOLE!!!!

/Jim carrey said it, not me
//I just happen to agree
///I raped someone, boohoo
//DIAF
/slash
 
2012-10-27 09:13:11 PM  

seapig: So many people have no idea what it's like to be in utter poverty and willing to do whatever it takes to get the hell out of it,


Whatever it takes.... but finish high school.
 
2012-10-27 09:14:28 PM  
i Just love how all these vigilantes responding here think that just because someone is in jail, they deserve to be there. You guys can't wrap your head around the FACT that prisons get sent the innocent and the abused just as much as the guilty - and "kill them all and let god sort them out" is the type of thing that makes people atheist. You want to torture people because a judge had constitpation one day and didn't feel like listening? When it comes to your turn - and there is very little stopping that - i'll be happy to listen to your attitude then.

but if you can look at these pictures and say "they all deserve it", then there is no doubt you're a racist - and, god willing, your time is numbered. Racism can't stand in the face of truth for very long, it shrivels like mold in sunlight. Have fun shriveling you bastard spawn.
 
2012-10-27 09:16:01 PM  

Psycat: Pray 4 Mojo: That's racist.

I know you're being snarky, but let me play Devil's Advocate anyways. Maybe it's not the skin pigmentation that makes the guy scary; maybe it's the serious muscles, the angry look on the prisoner's face, and even the inside-out shirt with the sleeves ripped off usually indicates somebody with a bad attitude. And maybe he's in prison in the first place for smashing in some honky's skull...


Maybe it's because he might send his brother Eddie after us to bore us to death...
 
2012-10-27 09:17:00 PM  

Psycat: Pray 4 Mojo: That's racist.

I know you're being snarky, but let me play Devil's Advocate anyways. Maybe it's not the skin pigmentation that makes the guy scary; maybe it's the serious muscles, the angry look on the prisoner's face, and even the inside-out shirt with the sleeves ripped off usually indicates somebody with a bad attitude. And maybe he's in prison in the first place for smashing in some honky's skull...


Actually... I don't care what color he is... it's the hat that freaks me out.

24.media.tumblr.com
 
2012-10-27 09:19:36 PM  

LookForTheArrow: i Just love how all these vigilantes responding here think that just because someone is in jail, they deserve to be there. You guys can't wrap your head around the FACT that prisons get sent the innocent and the abused just as much as the guilty - and "kill them all and let god sort them out" is the type of thing that makes people atheist. You want to torture people because a judge had constitpation one day and didn't feel like listening? When it comes to your turn - and there is very little stopping that - i'll be happy to listen to your attitude then.

but if you can look at these pictures and say "they all deserve it", then there is no doubt you're a racist - and, god willing, your time is numbered. Racism can't stand in the face of truth for very long, it shrivels like mold in sunlight. Have fun shriveling you bastard spawn.


A look, someone who's never actually been to a prison. You keep thinking that.

/it's actually possible to go to prisons and not be one of the incarcerated
//lots and lots of white people there
 
2012-10-27 09:23:57 PM  

LookForTheArrow: prisons get sent the innocent and the abused just as much as the guilty


So... you're saying the ratio of guilty convicts to innocent convicts is 1 to 1. Did you survey the convicts to collect that data?

Pro tip: Inane hyperbole obfuscates any salient point you intended to make.

/I know big words
 
2012-10-27 09:25:12 PM  

seapig: Low level dealers, yes. And these cops actually say "oh these are BAD guys"...no they're not. Most of the guys I've ever known who have moved some drugs to supplement their work income were nice, normal guys; guys with kids, who weren't violent, crazy, Scarface-like kingpins out in the street seeking blood for justice! It's so stupid to simplify it to "oh well if you can't do the time, don't do the crime!"...it's not that easy! So many people have no idea what it's like to be in utter poverty and willing to do whatever it takes to get the hell out of it, even if it means taking a little risk to make more money than you can doing literally ANYTHING else. And those are just the guys on the bottom, being happy with THEIR little take from the score. Like you said, think of how much the guys on the top are getting.


Agreed. It's always the guy trying to make his rent payment, or the Ecuadoran woman who serves as a drug mule to escape grinding poverty.

As for the police and judges being held to a higher standard, yes, I agree entirely. Their word is taken at face value in court proceedings, they hold people's lives and futures in their hand and if they decide to use that power unjustly, and get caught, then they deserve to have the book thrown at them. Look at that woman in MA, who was messing up all the drug samples and now pretty much EVERYTHING her lab touched is now in question...

...it basically boils down to how much money any one person has to throw at their legal troubles as to whether or not it actually sticks to them.


There's the unofficial version of the Golden Rule--those who have the gold make the rules. It's funny how a Nazi windbag like Rush can shop around for tons and tons of powerful prescription narcotics and not get arrested--while living in a state that gives out year-long sentences for pot possession. Law-and-order states like Florida remind me a lot of places like Dubai and Saudi Arabia where billionaire oil sheiks can literally enslave people (and maybe do a little heroin on the side), but they'll execute somebody for converting to a different religion.

One poster said they'd prefer if things were like they were in Scandinavia, where the prisons are more like "rehab-hotels" and I very much agree with that sentiment. Prisons do nothing but rob people of their time and keep them in a state of simply being "alive/conscious"; if we ever really want to get to the root of crime, then we need to really assess and help our prison population and address the problems at the very heart of it all, which is more often than not just extreme poverty...when you live far enough below the poverty line, ANY fate seems like a better one than continuing to be that farking poor anymore.

I'd lean towards the Scandinavian system myself, but perhaps with a few less frills. Basically, the prisons would be safe because violent prisoners would be removed from the GP. However, if the prisoners want luxuries like cable TV or cigarettes, they'd have to be on good behavior and actually work every day like people outside of prison.

Ultimately, I think that most crime comes from farked-up people giving birth to more farked-up people. Admittedly, a few criminals come from decent households, but I'd guess that the majority of really dangerous people come from homes with an alcoholic, physically-abusive father or a brutally authoritarian religious-nut mother or some other unholy combination of farked-upedness. As for the poverty aspect, if a person can't afford to feed themselves, they should probably try to avoid having children--even cold-turkey celibacy should be preferable to raising starving kids.

Unfortunately, the most screwed-up among us seem to be the ones who are least likely to take responsibility for birth control. I'm a strong civil libertarian but if there was one thing I'd get authoritarian about if I were King of the World, it would the the forced sterilization of maladjusted shiatheads who brutally abuse or neglect the kids they already have...
 
2012-10-27 09:30:04 PM  

Psycat: There's the unofficial version of the Golden Rule--those who have the gold make the rules.


Wait... just a second. This is not the "Official" Golden Rule? Serious question... WTF is the official one then? I'm guessing it's something like "Love your neighbor" or "Just be nice"... but i swear... I thought your 'unofficial' golden rule is The Golden Rule.

Maybe it's the Catholic schooling... they have a bit of a different view of the world.
 
2012-10-27 09:30:21 PM  

Onkel Buck: The thought of having to spend the next 15 years dealing with someone like this on a daily basis quickly ended any criminial aspirarations I had.
[i79.photobucket.com image 280x210]


Haha. Yes.

Though personally, I was always much more afraid of THIS guy:

i101.photobucket.com

i101.photobucket.com
 
2012-10-27 09:35:58 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: I've been held up at gun point when I was working the cash register (violent crime), and if they caught the guy I think he should have done some time. I was a little shaken up but I recovered in a few hours. Some people steal the life savings of people who are 70 and will never be able to recover 50+ years of hard work. Non-violent but I think deserve 10x the sentence of a robber, both for the intent and the callousness of the crime.


Ideally you'd want juries or even judges making that distinction on sentences so that all factors are weighed and a judgement is made on the penalty. But three strikes laws have taken the "judgement" out of the legal system.
 
2012-10-27 09:38:12 PM  

Psycat: I'm a strong civil libertarian but if there was one thing I'd get authoritarian about if I were King of the World, it would the the forced sterilization of maladjusted shiatheads who brutally abuse or neglect the kids they already have...


FYI... you've been favorited...

I was gonna sponsor you a month... but then I read your profile.
 
2012-10-27 09:40:12 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: Psycat: There's the unofficial version of the Golden Rule--those who have the gold make the rules.

Wait... just a second. This is not the "Official" Golden Rule? Serious question... WTF is the official one then? I'm guessing it's something like "Love your neighbor" or "Just be nice"... but i swear... I thought your 'unofficial' golden rule is The Golden Rule.

Maybe it's the Catholic schooling... they have a bit of a different view of the world.


The 'official' Golden Rule is basically "Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you" as taught be Jesus and many other moral teachers. I'm surprised you didn't learn this in Catholic school as it was something I learned about in Sunday school in my own Catholic upbringing.

As far as morality goes, I think that all true morals come from the Golden Rule. What sucks about organized religion is they also lay on a burden of what I call "social engineering rules" that try to micromanage peoples' existences--rules governing diet (e.g. don't eat meat on Friday, shellfish is sinful), sabbath and other holy days, what intoxicants you're allowed to take, and even whether or not you can wear mixed fabrics (yes, it's forbidden in the OT).

AFAIC, as long as you try to follow the Golden Rule, you're otherwise morally free to do whatever you want as long as it doesn't bother others and isn't going to attract police...
 
2012-10-27 09:45:46 PM  

Frederick: . But three strikes laws have taken the "judgement" out of the legal system


See also, mandatory minimum sentences.
 
2012-10-27 09:45:51 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: FYI... you've been favorited...


Thanks, Mojo!

I was gonna sponsor you a month... but then I read your profile.

I have a love/hate relationship with Fark. Sometimes, like today, I can get into interesting conversations with intelligent people. Other times, it's basically a circle-jerk of trolls who are trying to out-annoy each other. It also rankles me that none of my awesome links ever gets approved by the mod...
 
2012-10-27 09:50:38 PM  

WhyteRaven74: See also, mandatory minimum sentences.


Why is it that we have mandatory minimums for growing pot plants, but not for murder?

Hint: If you think that the Diet Pepsi candidate is any closer to legalizing pot than the Diet Coke candidate, you've fallen for the Good Cop/Bad Cop routine played by both branches of the Corporate Sell-Out Party...
 
2012-10-27 09:51:53 PM  

Psycat: The 'official' Golden Rule is basically "Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you" as taught be Jesus and many other moral teachers. I'm surprised you didn't learn this in Catholic school as it was something I learned about in Sunday school in my own Catholic upbringing.


Got you. I figured it was something like that. They never taught us that as "The Golden Rule"... it was probably too "secular" a term for the schools i went to... and would steal some of Jesus' thunder.

Just another one of the failures amid the myriad of them that was my Catholic schooling.
 
2012-10-27 09:52:45 PM  
The more miserable you try to make prison, the more certain you can be it'll end up having people going in out. Increasing sentences for crimes in lieu of any substantive need, is not justice, it's not getting tough on crime, it's pure vengeance born of insecurity and fear and a need to feel better than someone. At the end of the day if you're not willing to protect those in prison, whether it be from poor living conditions, violence, rape and other things, then you have no real authority to clamor for holding them. Also you can't have things heavily slanted towards that which will most impact the poor and minorities. Stealing a car can't carry a more severe sentence than pilfering a million dollars from a company's coffers, it most certainly can't carry a worse sentence than abusing trust and scamming people for millions of dollars. Even stealing a whole bunch of cars ought not carry a worse sentence. Also throwing people into prison for nothing more than being drug addicts, doesn't work either.
 
2012-10-27 09:53:49 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: Just another one of the failures amid the myriad of them that was my Catholic schooling.


I went to Catholic school and we learned what the golden rule was, hell we learned it was one of the things that Jesus taught.
 
2012-10-27 09:56:53 PM  

Onkel Buck: The thought of having to spend the next 15 years dealing with someone like this on a daily basis quickly ended any criminial aspirarations I had.
[i79.photobucket.com image 280x210]


One of the things that makes people criminals is the ability to believe that they will never get caught. You may have seriously considered some criminal act, then been put off by thinking of the consequences. But for the most part, that sort of thinking comes from people who are at very little risk of committing a serious crime to begin with. How many people reading this thread would rob a bank if they knew they could get away with it? The majority of us don't commit crime because of our internal values, rather than fear of the consequences. It isn't fear of legal consequences that keeps me from raping women - it's because I know it would be a wrong and terrible thing to do from the core of my being. So admit to yourself that you don't really understand how criminals think. Saying X, Y, or Z punishment would reduce or eliminate crime, because such a penalty would keep you on the straight and narrow, is of little use, since just about everyone who speculates that way already doesn't commit any crimes more serious than speeding, or smoking a joint.
 
2012-10-27 09:56:58 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: Just another one of the failures amid the myriad of them that was my Catholic schooling.


I'm a recovering Catholic myself...
 
2012-10-27 10:00:18 PM  

WhyteRaven74: mandatory minimum sentences


That phrase always make me think of this guy...

"Mandatory! Minimum! Sentences!"

/"I buy my crack, my smack, my biatch right here in Hollywood,"
 
2012-10-27 10:02:56 PM  

Frederick: Ideally you'd want juries or even judges making that distinction on sentences so that all factors are weighed and a judgement is made on the penalty.


We tried that, what do you think we did before 3 strikes? Obviously people weren't happy with the results. Career criminals with long, violent arrest records kept getting out and then Polly Klaas.
 
2012-10-27 10:05:45 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: Obviously people weren't happy with the results.


Whether or not people are happy is immaterial to the purposes of a functioning justice system.
 
2012-10-27 10:06:18 PM  

Psycat: Pray 4 Mojo: FYI... you've been favorited...

Thanks, Mojo!

I was gonna sponsor you a month... but then I read your profile.

I have a love/hate relationship with Fark. Sometimes, like today, I can get into interesting conversations with intelligent people. Other times, it's basically a circle-jerk of trolls who are trying to out-annoy each other. It also rankles me that none of my awesome links ever gets approved by the mod...


Understand completely.
 
2012-10-27 10:11:33 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: Frederick: Ideally you'd want juries or even judges making that distinction on sentences so that all factors are weighed and a judgement is made on the penalty.

We tried that, what do you think we did before 3 strikes? Obviously people weren't happy with the results. Career criminals with long, violent arrest records kept getting out and then Polly Klaas.


And those things (Polly Klaas) never happened again.
 
2012-10-27 10:12:55 PM  
'Nother question: what will become of the privatized prison industry, hell, the entire prison-industrial complex in America in the years to come? The Land of the Free already has the highest percentage of people in prison, in both absolute numbers and percentages, so where do we go from here?

Does the prison-industrial complex just keep growing indefinitely? We already have something like 1 in 4 black guys in prison--do we keep going until all black and Hispanic males are in prison? Then will it stop? Or will they then start putting white people in prison wholesale for pot possession or missing a child-support payment? Or will the Beast continue until 95% of America is in prison and the other 5% are working as guards?

Or will our salvation come at the state level? Over a dozen states have legal medical marijuana and states like Colorado are close to outright legalization. Once pot is legalized, it will be easier to legalize the others and then the whole black market in drugs will collapse.

Or will it end because the government is financially bankrupt (instead of just morally bankrupt)? We might get so far into debt that we simply cannot afford the prison-industrial complex. It probably won't end when We the People take back our government because too many Homer Simpsons out there are too damned complacent and there's too many idiots who keep voting for the same corporate types who oppress them.

One thing is certain: by creating the privatized prison industry and giving greedy bastards a financial motive for locking up as many people as possible, we've come up with a very good method of turning America into a police state. Even more of a fatal blow to American democracy than the creation of the Federal Reserve Bank in 1913...
 
2012-10-27 10:15:40 PM  

Repo Man: The majority of us don't commit crime because of our internal values, rather than fear of the consequences.


I'm not disagreeing with the sentiment of your entire post... but I don't think this is true. My internal values tell me to treat others as I'd like to be treated (The REAL Golden Rule apparently). However... I'm not in the drug business solely due to the fear of getting caught. And this isn't some hypothetical case... I run in circles where there is lots of opportunity.

My own question to you would be... How many people would drive from San Diego to Chicago with 100 pounds of pot in their car for $2,500? Most wouldn't do it... and most of those that wouldn't do it don't have some grand moral objection... it's the fear of getting caught.
 
2012-10-27 10:19:55 PM  
Just setup a data center and put all the ones who can read into cubes and let them do tech support.

"Yo. This is the Slicer.. How cans I helps youz with yerz iphonerz."
 
2012-10-27 10:21:34 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Whether or not people are happy is immaterial to the purposes of a functioning justice system.


The people elect the government, the government makes the laws, isn't that the way it is supposed to work? And in the case of 3 strikes in CA wasn't that approved by the voters?

If the people don't make the laws who should?
 
2012-10-27 10:23:53 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Pray 4 Mojo: Just another one of the failures amid the myriad of them that was my Catholic schooling.

I went to Catholic school and we learned what the golden rule was, hell we learned it was one of the things that Jesus taught.


I'm pretty sure that if Jesus were quoted as saying, "... and this shall be my Golden Rule."... I woulda learned it. That he didn't... is the reason why I didn't... I'm pretty sure.
 
2012-10-27 10:23:55 PM  

Frederick: And those things (Polly Klaas) never happened again.


Is that a question?
 
2012-10-27 10:25:00 PM  

Psycat: One thing is certain: by creating the privatized prison industry and giving greedy bastards a financial motive for locking up as many people as possible, we've come up with a very good method of turning America into a police state. Even more of a fatal blow to American democracy than the creation of the Federal Reserve Bank in 1913...


Favorited -in cool blue #5.
 
2012-10-27 10:25:32 PM  
In my community, some bastard was accused of murdering a small girl. I knew the family--they had a reputation for being a bunch of hoodlums--and the accused murderer seemed exactly like the kind of flaky creep who would molest and kill a child. Her bloody clothes were found in his locker and he supposedly bragged to cellmates that he did a very good job of hiding the body. At the trial, it came out that he was friends with the girl's parents and did hard drugs with them regularly. It also came out that when he'd get drunk at his friends' house, they'd let him sleep it off in the same bed as the little girl.

Unfortunately, Minnesota law at the time made it almost impossible to get a murder conviction if there's no body. In other words, you could get away with murder as long as you did a good job of disposing the body. And he did get a not-guilty verdict. What was worse was that his defense attorney was a slimeball who regularly got violent criminals off the hook by dirty Kunstleresque tactics. I didn't think much of the county prosecutor either--just another drug-war tool more interested in busting potheads than in prosecuting murderers.

This evil bastard did move out of state for a while, but he's now back in the community. Worse, he has children of his own--and a stalker-ready van at his disposal. I'm almost disappointed that some vigilante hasn't killed him yet, and I'm very disappointed that they never re-opened the case once better DNA analysis became available (it's not double jeopardy if there's new evidence).

The fact that this satanic motherfarker is running around the community while many people are serving decades-long sentences for growing a few pot plants is what gets my bile up about the legal system in this farked-up country...
 
2012-10-27 10:28:20 PM  

Frederick: Favorited -in cool blue #5.


Thanks, Frederick!
 
2012-10-27 10:29:09 PM  
Now that's what I call living the High Life!
 
2012-10-27 10:31:17 PM  

Frederick: Favorited -in cool blue #5.


Somebody has a fan club.
 
2012-10-27 10:32:57 PM  
You can tell a lot about a person in how they treat those who are below them. Same for society.
 
2012-10-27 10:38:10 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: The people elect the government, the government makes the laws, isn't that the way it is supposed to work? And in the case of 3 strikes in CA wasn't that approved by the voters?


In the case of crime and punishment we have a bit of a feedback loop. Certain people declare the only thing that can be done, without actually demonstrating this is the case, declare the only way to deal with crime is harsher punishments. People support them doing this. In turn more people repeat the same thing. You have people being told something that appeals to some part of their emotions, absent any substantiation that the idea is particularly effective or even desirable, and they then seek those who appeal to that part of their emotion. Law is supposed to be about reason, not emotional appeals. If you want to reduce crime, make sure you don't have people living in squalor without suitable food and public resources. That is actually being tough on crime, what others call being tough on crime is nothing of the sort, you're just practicing vengeance with those who've often found themselves with little in the way of options and a decision wherein on the balance of things as they perceived it committing a crime was not so much a risk but a worthwhile option.
 
2012-10-27 10:40:32 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: Frederick: And those things (Polly Klaas) never happened again.

Is that a question?


No, its to be read with sarcasm. Three strikes laws didnt solve any problems and took the judgement out of the peoples hands. Three strikes laws are used in the war on drugs to incarcerate "easy" inmates while sex crimes go under-punished (Polly Klaas)

A person who shoplifts three times is not the danger to society that the one time (caught) child molester is -but guess who gets punished more? 

And if anyone ever wonders...legislators are less likely to enact harsh penalties for crimes they themselves are more likely of to be convicted.

Think about that.
 
2012-10-27 10:42:20 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: Repo Man: The majority of us don't commit crime because of our internal values, rather than fear of the consequences.

I'm not disagreeing with the sentiment of your entire post... but I don't think this is true. My internal values tell me to treat others as I'd like to be treated (The REAL Golden Rule apparently). However... I'm not in the drug business solely due to the fear of getting caught. And this isn't some hypothetical case... I run in circles where there is lots of opportunity.

My own question to you would be... How many people would drive from San Diego to Chicago with 100 pounds of pot in their car for $2,500? Most wouldn't do it... and most of those that wouldn't do it don't have some grand moral objection... it's the fear of getting caught.


Comparing smuggling pot with rape, robbing banks etc. is apples and oranges. Smuggling pot is against the law because marijuana is illegal. I've yet to come across a valid reason for weed to be illegal, but rape has had negative consequences in most places and times throughout history. When I say most people don't commit crimes out of internalized mores, I'm talking about serious crimes - crimes that seriously violate people, or their property rights. Who among us has never been so angry at someone that we fantasized about killing them? Was it really the thought that you would likely be arrested that kept you from actually acting on your homicidal impulses? For some people, yes, but for most of us, no.
 
2012-10-27 10:43:46 PM  
3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-10-27 10:47:27 PM  

Frederick: DrewCurtisJr: Frederick: And those things (Polly Klaas) never happened again.

Is that a question?

No, its to be read with sarcasm. Three strikes laws didnt solve any problems and took the judgement out of the peoples hands. Three strikes laws are used in the war on drugs to incarcerate "easy" inmates while sex crimes go under-punished (Polly Klaas)

A person who shoplifts three times is not the danger to society that the one time (caught) child molester is -but guess who gets punished more? 

And if anyone ever wonders...legislators are less likely to enact harsh penalties for crimes they themselves are more likely of to be convicted.

Think about that.


Joe Klaas, Marc Klaas' father, came out against the original three strikes law, and wanted to pass an initiative to change it to three violent felonies, rather than simply three felonies. Last I heard, he and his son weren't talking as a result. but that's old news, and they may have reconciled.
 
2012-10-27 10:47:42 PM  

John Buck 41: [3.bp.blogspot.com image 320x240]


That's cool that you cared enough about demonstrating that you didn't care to upload a picture to Fark...
 
2012-10-27 10:51:09 PM  

Repo Man: Pray 4 Mojo: Repo Man: The majority of us don't commit crime because of our internal values, rather than fear of the consequences.

I'm not disagreeing with the sentiment of your entire post... but I don't think this is true. My internal values tell me to treat others as I'd like to be treated (The REAL Golden Rule apparently). However... I'm not in the drug business solely due to the fear of getting caught. And this isn't some hypothetical case... I run in circles where there is lots of opportunity.

My own question to you would be... How many people would drive from San Diego to Chicago with 100 pounds of pot in their car for $2,500? Most wouldn't do it... and most of those that wouldn't do it don't have some grand moral objection... it's the fear of getting caught.

Comparing smuggling pot with rape, robbing banks etc. is apples and oranges. Smuggling pot is against the law because marijuana is illegal. I've yet to come across a valid reason for weed to be illegal, but rape has had negative consequences in most places and times throughout history. When I say most people don't commit crimes out of internalized mores, I'm talking about serious crimes - crimes that seriously violate people, or their property rights. Who among us has never been so angry at someone that we fantasized about killing them? Was it really the thought that you would likely be arrested that kept you from actually acting on your homicidal impulses? For some people, yes, but for most of us, no.


Don't know that I disagree... but my point was that even if you remove the moral implications: a drug mule who think they're not hurting anybody vs a sociopath who thinks it's okay to rape women... it's still the fear of getting caught that will stop a rational person... it will even stop a rational sociopath... if there is such a thing. Prisons are full (not literally) of criminals who have no internal moral compass AND no fear of getting caught. You can't remove one from the other.
 
2012-10-27 10:57:07 PM  

Frederick: DrewCurtisJr: Frederick: And those things (Polly Klaas) never happened again.

Is that a question?

No, its to be read with sarcasm. Three strikes laws didnt solve any problems and took the judgement out of the peoples hands. Three strikes laws are used in the war on drugs to incarcerate "easy" inmates while sex crimes go under-punished (Polly Klaas)

A person who shoplifts three times is not the danger to society that the one time (caught) child molester is -but guess who gets punished more? 

And if anyone ever wonders...legislators are less likely to enact harsh penalties for crimes they themselves are more likely of to be convicted.

Think about that.


The Three-Strikes Law is just an exercise in legislative stupidity. I agree with you that it's mostly to fill the prisons with low-level drug offenders and for good reason: low-level drug offenders are more likely to do telemarketing and other work for ten cents an hour than a murderer and they can more easily be guarded by low-paid guards with a minimum of training. Murderers can't be as easily exploited for slave labor and require guards who are actually qualified.

When it comes to violent crimes like murder, you shouldn't need a three-strikes law. One life-without-parole sentence is all it takes. Having read up a bit about serial killers, it's really amazing how many of them did get convicted of murder in their early years, and then got out of prison after just a few years (prison overcrowding, shiathead parole board), and then went off to commit more murders.

As for laws governing private, consensual behavior between adults (prostitution, pot smoking, cigarette smoking, gambling, fornication, etc.), I think all of them are inherently unconstitutional and should be immediately stricken from the law books.

And if some goddam Helen Lovejoy plays the "Won't somebody think of the children" card and tries to pass a law against consensual behavior, they should be tarred, feathered, and thrown into prison for treason against the Constitution. IMO, throwing somebody in prison for a victimless 'crime' is a violent crime itself, and the Helen Lovejoys are just as dangerous to a democracy as John Wayne Gacy...
 
2012-10-27 11:06:30 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Law is supposed to be about reason, not emotional appeals. If you want to reduce crime, make sure you don't have people living in squalor without suitable food and public resources. That is actually being tough on crime, what others call being tough on crime is nothing of the sort, you're just practicing vengeance with those who've often found themselves with little in the way of options and a decision wherein on the balance of things as they perceived it committing a crime was not so much a risk but a worthwhile option.


It's not like people are unreasonable. Like I said before they are reconsidering the 3 strikes law. And prisons are actually a lot more humane than they used to be, so they don't always support being harsh, it works both ways.
 
2012-10-27 11:10:02 PM  

Frederick: No, its to be read with sarcasm. Three strikes laws didnt solve any problems and took the judgement out of the peoples hands. Three strikes laws are used in the war on drugs to incarcerate "easy" inmates while sex crimes go under-punished (Polly Klaas)

A person who shoplifts three times is not the danger to society that the one time (caught) child molester is -but guess who gets punished more?



Crime is way down, so don't say 3 strikes didn't solve any problems. Also get caught molesting a child and you will do a long prison term, and then you will be a registered sex offender for life which will make you unemployable, a social pariah, and your housing options are limited to under remote bridges and industrial waste dumps.
 
2012-10-27 11:16:50 PM  

Psycat: John Buck 41: [3.bp.blogspot.com image 320x240]

That's cool that you cared enough about demonstrating that you didn't care to upload a picture to Fark...


?
 
2012-10-27 11:18:44 PM  
 
2012-10-27 11:19:09 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: Crime is way down, so don't say 3 strikes didn't solve any problems


I personally know several (and have heard of many other) people in CA who got strike number two and FINALLY turned their lives around when they got out... simply out of fear of collecting their third strike. I think it's undeniable that "Three Strikes" succeeded in it's intended goal... for a lot of people, that second strike meant the end to your career as a criminal. Unfortunately... I don't think that modicum of success was worth the wreckage it brought with it.
 
2012-10-27 11:21:55 PM  

Psycat: As for laws governing private, consensual behavior between adults (prostitution, pot smoking, cigarette smoking, gambling, fornication, etc.), I think all of them are inherently unconstitutional and should be immediately stricken from the law books.


So... is there some point when you will actually be running for King of the World?
 
2012-10-27 11:29:41 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: Frederick: No, its to be read with sarcasm. Three strikes laws didnt solve any problems and took the judgement out of the peoples hands. Three strikes laws are used in the war on drugs to incarcerate "easy" inmates while sex crimes go under-punished (Polly Klaas)

A person who shoplifts three times is not the danger to society that the one time (caught) child molester is -but guess who gets punished more?


Crime is way down, so don't say 3 strikes didn't solve any problems. Also get caught molesting a child and you will do a long prison term, and then you will be a registered sex offender for life which will make you unemployable, a social pariah, and your housing options are limited to under remote bridges and industrial waste dumps.


What world do you live in?

Link

"Violent crime, but especially homicide, has fallen in the Los Angeles area, as well as other areas of the southland-Los Angeles's 2010 homicide count was 297, less than a third of the 1992 high of 1,000 homicides.[6] However, this may just be a correlation and not causal, as violent crime has also fallen in other areas of California where the three strikes law is not enforced. It should also be noted that punishments for homicides are extremely harsh, resulting in extremely long sentences, life sentences without the possibility of parole or even the death penalty, even for the first conviction, overshadowing any deterrent effect of the three strikes law."

And I dont want to google at work paroled child molesters -but you should to educate yourself.
 
2012-10-27 11:31:55 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: I personally know several (and have heard of many other) people in CA who got strike number two and FINALLY turned their lives around when they got out... simply out of fear of collecting their third strike. I think it's undeniable that "Three Strikes" succeeded in it's intended goal... for a lot of people, that second strike meant the end to your career as a criminal. Unfortunately... I don't think that modicum of success was worth the wreckage it brought with it.


Like I said before there is an initiative to change the 3 strikes to 3 violent felonies, but this won't open the flood gates of people getting out of prison. People aren't always out for blood and they don't want to see a car thief locked up for life. Though if you are facing 25 years to life for stealing a Camry you should receive a "Too stupid to live among us" sentence if you think it is worth it.
 
2012-10-27 11:34:13 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: Crime is way down, so don't say 3 strikes didn't solve any problems.


That crime is down does not necessarily follow from 3 strikes law. There could be any number of reasons for it. And saying that crime is down because of 3 strikes also doesn't justify it.
 
2012-10-27 11:36:32 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: So... is there some point when you will actually be running for King of the World?


I'd be afraid to. If I ran on the ticket of rational thinking and opposition to official bullshiat, I'd have every politician, theologian, and lawyer on my case. Hell, I'd have half the world going after me.

I wonder at times that that there's a certain amount of stupidity and obfuscation deliberated worked into the system, either by evolution or by design. Organized religion exists because people apparently need some intermediary in a funny hat to talk to God on a magical telephone because they never thought of connecting to God via direct dial. For some of us to have even a middle-class lifestyle, there almost needs to be a certain percentage of poor people who make themselves economically exploitable by having more kids than they can afford to feed. We need stupid people pumped up on propaganda to fight our wars because the rich who start the wars in the first place aren't going to fight their own battles. And so on, ad infinitum...
 
2012-10-27 11:40:50 PM  
BTW, I finally did RTFA already. Said in it that the California Supreme Court ordered the release of 30,000 prisoners over the next few years. I don't know much about the mandatory minimum laws of California, but I'd be scared shirtless that they'd be dumping rapists and murderers on the streets to make room for drug dealers. The WoD is turning out to be far, far, far more of a public policy disaster than Prohibition ever was...
 
2012-10-27 11:46:33 PM  

Frederick: What world do you live in?


I live in reality and base my positions of fact even if it doesn't agree with my ideology. Homicides aren't the only form of violent crime.

And I dont want to google at work paroled child molesters -but you should to educate yourself.

Educate myself? Google Megan's law.
 
2012-10-27 11:47:24 PM  

Frederick: Link

"Violent crime, but especially homicide, has fallen in the Los Angeles area, as well as other areas of the southland-Los Angeles's 2010 homicide count was 297, less than a third of the 1992 high of 1,000 homicides.[6] However, this may just be a correlation and not causal, as violent crime has also fallen in other areas of California where the three strikes law is not enforced. It should also be noted that punishments for homicides are extremely harsh, resulting in extremely long sentences, life sentences without the possibility of parole or even the death penalty, even for the first conviction, overshadowing any deterrent effect of the three strikes law."

And I dont want to google at work paroled child molesters -but you should to educate yourself.


I don't know of any counties in CA where the Three Strikes law is "not" enforced. There are lots where it is enforced selectively... but not at all... never heard of such a thing.

This is why we shouldn't get our "facts" from Wikipedia.

I'm looking now... but if you have some information on which counties don;t enforce it... I'm all ears.
 
2012-10-27 11:51:30 PM  

WhyteRaven74: That crime is down does not necessarily follow from 3 strikes law. There could be any number of reasons for it.


There are a number of reasons for it, such as better technology and more police on the streets, but most people who study the issue conclude that lengthy prison terms are partly responsible.

And saying that crime is down because of 3 strikes also doesn't justify it.

It gets results and it gives people multiple chances, 3 felonies takes effort.
 
2012-10-27 11:54:54 PM  

Psycat: Pray 4 Mojo: So... is there some point when you will actually be running for King of the World?

I'd be afraid to. If I ran on the ticket of rational thinking and opposition to official bullshiat, I'd have every politician, theologian, and lawyer on my case. Hell, I'd have half the world going after me.

I wonder at times that that there's a certain amount of stupidity and obfuscation deliberated worked into the system, either by evolution or by design. Organized religion exists because people apparently need some intermediary in a funny hat to talk to God on a magical telephone because they never thought of connecting to God via direct dial. For some of us to have even a middle-class lifestyle, there almost needs to be a certain percentage of poor people who make themselves economically exploitable by having more kids than they can afford to feed. We need stupid people pumped up on propaganda to fight our wars because the rich who start the wars in the first place aren't going to fight their own battles. And so on, ad infinitum...


Yeah... but whatta ya gonna do?

Society needs classes... almost by definition. It certainly doesn't hurt for people to be able to freely move between classes (based on their ability to... or lack thereof)... but without the three... or four... or five... or six different levels... it just doesn't work.

/or seven...
 
2012-10-28 12:01:07 AM  

Pray 4 Mojo: Yeah... but whatta ya gonna do?

Society needs classes... almost by definition. It certainly doesn't hurt for people to be able to freely move between classes (based on their ability to... or lack thereof)... but without the three... or four... or five... or six different levels... it just doesn't work.

/or seven...


The older I get, the more I'm convinced that I really can't do anything at all. That's why I'm being ironic about being King of the World; even in the 0.000000000001% I ever get that much power, I'd probably screw it up worse. The best I can hope to do is to fend for myself and maybe help out a friend or family member on occasion...
 
2012-10-28 12:03:18 AM  

Godscrack: I like how all the do-gooders think being incarcerated will never happen to them.


The bootlicking statists in this thread don't realize they broke five laws before they got out of bed this morning, and that the only reason they aren't incarcerated is that the laws that they broke don't currently rank among the ones that "count."
 
2012-10-28 12:15:25 AM  

Man On Pink Corner: Godscrack: I like how all the do-gooders think being incarcerated will never happen to them.

The bootlicking statists in this thread don't realize they broke five laws before they got out of bed this morning, and that the only reason they aren't incarcerated is that the laws that they broke don't currently rank among the ones that "count."


Woke up... pissed... had a cigarette... brushed my teeth... got dressed... drove to the job (at or below the speed limit in the car I own which is insured and registered)... watched laborers unpack crates... made sure they took a break... signed 'em out... drove back here... had a beer... watched the WS and Farked for awhile... now I'm typing this.

It's really not hard to not break the law.
 
2012-10-28 12:18:25 AM  

Psycat: Pray 4 Mojo: Yeah... but whatta ya gonna do?

Society needs classes... almost by definition. It certainly doesn't hurt for people to be able to freely move between classes (based on their ability to... or lack thereof)... but without the three... or four... or five... or six different levels... it just doesn't work.

/or seven...

The older I get, the more I'm convinced that I really can't do anything at all. That's why I'm being ironic about being King of the World; even in the 0.000000000001% I ever get that much power, I'd probably screw it up worse. The best I can hope to do is to fend for myself and maybe help out a friend or family member on occasion...


Good a plan as any.

Don't usually do this... but... it's been a pleasure, but I'm outta here. Thanks for the insight.
 
2012-10-28 12:23:54 AM  

Man On Pink Corner: The bootlicking statists in this thread don't realize they broke five laws before they got out of bed this morning, and that the only reason they aren't incarcerated is that the laws that they broke don't currently rank among the ones that "count."


There are laws that I don't break because they harm people and I don't break them for moral reasons, for the others I weigh the penalties and chance of getting caught vs. the benefits, but I still accept the consequences if I'm caught. Just like everyone else.
 
2012-10-28 12:28:50 AM  

DrewCurtisJr: Frederick: What world do you live in?

I live in reality and base my positions of fact even if it doesn't agree with my ideology. Homicides aren't the only form of violent crime.

And I dont want to google at work paroled child molesters -but you should to educate yourself.

Educate myself? Google Megan's law.


Aright, I didnt want to but here you go:
Paroled sex offenders

Second article (of 241,000 results):
"A paroled sex offender with a record of committing crimes involving children has been arrested again, this time after a woman told Evansville Police Department officers he entered her house and grabbed her daughter Tuesday."

There are a lot of these results.

My original point was that sex crimes are under-punished partially as a result of over crowded prisons from the war on drugs (also because legislators are soft on sex crimes). Three strikes law are not being used to deter violent crimes but to incarcerate "easy" drug offenders beneficial to the prison industry.
 
2012-10-28 12:37:01 AM  

Pray 4 Mojo: This is why we shouldn't get our "facts" from Wikipedia.


Yes, I agree. But at work I try to limit how wide my web is. At least Wikipedia uses sources that can be verified or disputed as a jumping off point.

DrewCurtisJr: I live in reality and base my positions of fact even if it doesn't agree with my ideology.


Thanks for the link. I do like the CSM. The article did have a kind of contradictory take on the Three strikes law.

Not all the steps taken against crime are uniformly seen as positive, though.

Mandatory-sentencing rules, such as "three strikes" laws that have spread to states including California, Florida, and Pennsylvania since 1993, have had a positive impact on crime rates. But Fox of Northeastern suggests that the cost of incarcerating more Americans has other less-desirable effects.

"It certainly is true that while someone is incarcerated they can't be out on the streets doing crime," he says. "But at what cost to the education that could keep them from crime in the first place? We are robbing Peter - i.e., the education system - to pay Paul - the penal system. It's impossible to call that a clear victory."
 
2012-10-28 12:38:17 AM  
Why can't the poor and uneducated stop breaking the law and just poop out some kids so they government takes care of them, like everyone else?
 
2012-10-28 12:39:48 AM  

Frederick: My original point was that sex crimes are under-punished partially as a result of over crowded prisons from the war on drugs (also because legislators are soft on sex crimes). Three strikes law are not being used to deter violent crimes but to incarcerate "easy" drug offenders beneficial to the prison industry.


That link doesn't support your point, there is nothing in that article that suggests that this guy was let out to make room for drug offenders. And it does make a case that this repeat offender should never have been let out in the first place.

I don't know how you conclude that legislators are soft on sex crimes. Sex offenders are often required to register for decades if not life, and the guy in the story was wearing a tracking device.
 
2012-10-28 12:42:16 AM  

kronicfeld: me texan: Do they deserve better than soldiers in basic training / boot camp?

This reeks of "Waterboarding isn't torture because SEALS are waterboarded as part of their training."


I'm sorry, the correct answer is no. No they don't deserve better. Thanks for playing.
 
2012-10-28 12:43:28 AM  

Frederick: Thanks for the link. I do like the CSM. The article did have a kind of contradictory take on the Three strikes law.


You're welcome. No one denies it is expensive to keep people locked up. But there is a cost to society in having criminals victimize use. Like everything else it is weighing the cost vs. benefits. Both economically and the type of society we want to have.
 
2012-10-28 12:59:49 AM  

Pray 4 Mojo: Onkel Buck: The thought of having to spend the next 15 years dealing with someone like this on a daily basis quickly ended any criminial aspirarations I had.
[i79.photobucket.com image 280x210]

That's racist.


You = shallow thinking
 
2012-10-28 01:13:36 AM  

Happy Hours: One thing nobody here has asked is why we incarcerate so many more people than any other nation in the world.

Are people in the US that much more likely to be criminals?

Does every other country not punish crime that should be punished?

Anyone?


We rehabilitate- not punish- in Norway.
 
2012-10-28 01:47:05 AM  
Then why do so many of the residents work so hard to return after their initial visit?
 
2012-10-28 01:54:24 AM  

BobDeluxe: I'm sorry, the correct answer is no. No they don't deserve better. Thanks for playing.


So prisoners should live in shiat and we should be glad they do?
 
2012-10-28 03:27:58 AM  

filter: Happy Hours: One thing nobody here has asked is why we incarcerate so many more people than any other nation in the world.

Are people in the US that much more likely to be criminals?

Does every other country not punish crime that should be punished?

Anyone?

We rehabilitate- not punish- in Norway.


I don't get why this is such a difficult concept for people.

If you want to reduce crime--really reduce it--you rehabilitate the criminals.

Putting someone in prison only temporary solves the problem, because it only temporarily removes them from society. Once they return, they're often worse than they were before. Crimes will still be committed, sometimes worse than before, and people still suffer. We're basically spending millions to make things worse.

Other than sanctimonious self-righteousness, I don't see the benefit of such a system.
 
2012-10-28 03:33:21 AM  

TheHopeDiamond: So? I would seriously be ok with chaining them up four to a cell; one per wall.

Let's make prison a deterrant again.


Which would make suspected criminals even more dangerous while committing their crimes.
Instead of kidnap, kidnap and murder
Instead of rape, rape and murder
instead of robbery, robbery and murder
more dangerous for law enforcement as well, as the suspects will be much less likely to surrender given what awaits them if they do, and its the cops who will have to deal with what happens instead. 

The only deterrent factor will be less of a willingness to get captured, not less of a willingness to commit crime. There will always be criminals, no matter what the punishment. That is part of human nature.
 
2012-10-28 05:58:56 AM  

jim32rr: me texan: Happy Hours: And last I checked our military is still all volunteer.

Last I checked, so is the decision to rob, stab and kill people.

Exactly, fark em.


You stupid fark. You think THAT is what is filling our prisons?! Kill yourself.
 
2012-10-28 06:03:39 AM  

Happy Hours: me texan: Looks about the same as my barracks in basic training, except they have more freedoms apparently. Do they deserve better than soldiers in basic training / boot camp?

/not subby

Basic training lasts 6-8 weeks? It's designed to instill discipline and whip new recruits to the military into shape and there's little fear that the person in the next bunk is going to rape, stab or just plain beat the shiat out of you for whatever reason or even no reason.

And last I checked our military is still all volunteer.

It would be interesting to get the perspective of people who had both been through boot camp and a prison like this. I've not been to either one, but if you gave me a choice of a prison as pictured or boot camp, I think I'd take boot camp.


Thats because 1) you havent been to basic training, but mostly its because 2) Basic is a joke for those that end up in in a combat arms MOS like 13F for instance. Have been to jail and to 13F AIT for about the same amount of time, no question, hands down, no doubt, no hesitation, jail is farking paradise in comparison.
 
2012-10-28 06:17:04 AM  

Frederick: After reading through much of the thread it seems clear to me that one side of the issue is represented by logic, facts and rationale and the other side is arguing from a position of emotion (essentially fear).

And if people have learned anything from the war on drugs and terrorism it's that emotion trumps logic every time. The rational people are not getting involved enough.

\All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.


Have you ever considered the possibility that rational people have realized the futility of their efforts and decided that the emotional people probably deserve what's coming to them?
 
2012-10-28 06:17:35 AM  

Generation_D: 2wolves: Generation_D: 2wolves: USA: All the justice you can afford.

yep, just like every country anywhere ever. Don't like it? make money.

You can't create a civil society through incarceration.

Who said anything about creating a civil society? Drug users are already the ones that effed up badly enough to either kill someone over a drug deal, or get caught using because they couldn't control their own habit or use properly without getting caught or attracting attention to themselves.

I get it, you want to use, thats fine man, go ahead I have no problem with it.

But the rules say you are supremely effed if you use and get caught. So what do you do? Give in to poor impulse control, or learn to fit your vices around the current effed up legal system?

We all make our own choices.


Heel It Down The Drain: I see the anti-"War on Drugs" crowd is here. "Waaa, if we just legalize drugs, the prisons would be at 10% capacity".
How about you quit using until that day comes chief? After a month, you may not want to pick up that joint or start sniffing coke up your nose. After they're legalized, you can go back to pretending illicit drugs aren't harmful for you.


How about you shove a pineapple up your ass, chief? Do not tell me what to do with my life. I seriously doubt you have made a greater sacrifice for our society than I have, so go fark yourself with fore mentioned fruit.
 
2012-10-28 06:41:44 AM  

thisisarepeat: Generation_D: 2wolves: Generation_D: 2wolves: USA: All the justice you can afford.

yep, just like every country anywhere ever. Don't like it? make money.

You can't create a civil society through incarceration.

Who said anything about creating a civil society? Drug users are already the ones that effed up badly enough to either kill someone over a drug deal, or get caught using because they couldn't control their own habit or use properly without getting caught or attracting attention to themselves.

I get it, you want to use, thats fine man, go ahead I have no problem with it.

But the rules say you are supremely effed if you use and get caught. So what do you do? Give in to poor impulse control, or learn to fit your vices around the current effed up legal system?

We all make our own choices.

Heel It Down The Drain: I see the anti-"War on Drugs" crowd is here. "Waaa, if we just legalize drugs, the prisons would be at 10% capacity".
How about you quit using until that day comes chief? After a month, you may not want to pick up that joint or start sniffing coke up your nose. After they're legalized, you can go back to pretending illicit drugs aren't harmful for you.

How about you shove a pineapple up your ass, chief? Do not tell me what to do with my life. I seriously doubt you have made a greater sacrifice for our society than I have, so go fark yourself with fore mentioned fruit.


Dumbass argument. You think because you made some great sacrifice, you deserve to take drugs the rest of your life. Laws are laws, and what's illegal is illegal. Seems like you're rationalizing just a wee bit.
/keep your pineapple duuuuuuuude
 
2012-10-28 07:05:02 AM  

Frederick: After reading through much of the thread it seems clear to me that one side of the issue is represented by logic, facts and rationale and the other side is arguing from a position of emotion (essentially fear).

And if people have learned anything from the war on drugs and terrorism it's that emotion trumps logic every time. The rational people are not getting involved enough.

\All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.


Wow, great post:
"Gee, there's two sides to the debate and one of them is silly. I'm not telling you which side I'm on, you'll have to guess. -quote some famous guy-"

Nifty. Whoever wins the World Series is the team I've always rooted for. Why would waste my time (like some people) cheering for the losing side?

/ In-ter-jec-tion: Wow! Gee! Nifty!
// Hurray! I'm for the other team!!
/// Or by a comma when the feeling's not as strong
 
2012-10-28 08:03:29 AM  

WhyteRaven74: DrewCurtisJr: Obviously people weren't happy with the results.

Whether or not people are happy is immaterial to the purposes of a functioning justice system police state.


FTFY

/those who try to tell you that your free country is already a police state, are the ones trying to turn it into one
//sadly, they seem to be winning
 
2012-10-28 08:15:05 AM  
There are 1, 298,000 laws or regulations on the books that can get you into prison. They can find one for you.
 
2012-10-28 10:25:50 AM  
They like to exercise so much make em all work hard labor for life sentences. They all like to shiat so close together, film it, and sell the vids on the internet to perverts. Sick that people don't know right from wrong but know how to steal someone's identity or override a vehicle's computer. So f em.
Probably one of the reasons I am not a rich man. It is very easy to flip atm kiosks with the old mitm beige box attack. Even easier if they are wifi. Do I like to watch grown men shiating and skullfarking me? Nope. I stay broke but not broken lol. I suspect that many of these people don't have hobbies or interests outside of pussy and getting money to get farked up. That is a very short road, my friend. And don't forget the meatloaf at the Cook County slammer lol.
 
2012-10-28 12:28:32 PM  
img.chan4chan.com
 
2012-10-28 03:15:33 PM  
The amount of people calling for the death penalty in here is freaking me out. Y'all's some violent-ass people.

Maybe you'd benefit from a time out to think about your blood lust. I'm sure CA could find a ward for you armchair executioners.
 
2012-10-28 03:29:02 PM  

NicoFinn: The amount of people calling for the death penalty in here is freaking me out. Y'all's some violent-ass people.

Maybe you'd benefit from a time out to think about your blood lust. I'm sure CA could find a ward for you armchair executioners.


In one of his essays, Bertrand Russell mentions how during the Inquisition, the inquisitors would sometimes show the mercy of strangling you before burning you at the stake if you confessed. But they had to be careful; if word got out, there was the chance that a mob might form, storm the jail, and burn the prisoner at the stake themselves. It seems that nothing enlivened the dreary lives of the peasants of the time like a good live burning, with the screams and such. And these people would not be deprived of their pleasure. That was only a few centuries ago, people haven't changed appreciably.
 
2012-10-28 04:21:27 PM  

captcaveman: [img.chan4chan.com image 850x649]


Yeah. That should fix everything.

//eyeroll
 
2012-10-28 04:47:31 PM  

Repo Man: people haven't changed appreciably.


I can tell. :/

/interesting historical anecdote, bro!
 
2012-10-28 07:36:02 PM  

KyDave: Frederick: After reading through much of the thread it seems clear to me that one side of the issue is represented by logic, facts and rationale and the other side is arguing from a position of emotion (essentially fear).

And if people have learned anything from the war on drugs and terrorism it's that emotion trumps logic every time. The rational people are not getting involved enough.

\All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

Wow, great post:
"Gee, there's two sides to the debate and one of them is silly. I'm not telling you which side I'm on, you'll have to guess. -quote some famous guy-"

Nifty. Whoever wins the World Series is the team I've always rooted for. Why would waste my time (like some people) cheering for the losing side?

/ In-ter-jec-tion: Wow! Gee! Nifty!
// Hurray! I'm for the other team!!
/// Or by a comma when the feeling's not as strong


So...youre on the emotional side then -got it. 'Cause you sure didnt bring any logic to it.
 
2012-10-29 12:56:20 AM  

Frederick: KyDave: Frederick: After reading through much of the thread it seems clear to me that one side of the issue is represented by logic, facts and rationale and the other side is arguing from a position of emotion (essentially fear).
And if people have learned anything from the war on drugs and terrorism it's that emotion trumps logic every time. The rational people are not getting involved enough.
\All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

Wow, great post:
"Gee, there's two sides to the debate and one of them is silly. I'm not telling you which side I'm on, you'll have to guess. -quote some famous guy-"
Nifty. Whoever wins the World Series is the team I've always rooted for. Why would waste my time (like some people) cheering for the losing side?
/ In-ter-jec-tion: Wow! Gee! Nifty!
// Hurray! I'm for the other team!!
/// Or by a comma when the feeling's not as strong

So...youre on the emotional side then -got it. 'Cause you sure didnt bring any logic to it.


IDK how you can classify me, as my comments did not indicate a stance for either side. They were an observation that yours were likewise devoid of stance... just as too is your rebuttal.

I have a very tiny brain: Could you please tell me what side you're on? 'Cause it still seems like you're saying, "there are two sides of this issue. I'm on the side that's not dumb." My guess is that you want to be on the 'logic' side, but I wouldn't want to be presumptuous.

Heck, I might even agree with you (as if you were hoping for an endorsement from tiny-brained little ole me), if I knew WTH you were trying to say. Thanks much.
 
2012-10-29 03:00:13 AM  

KyDave: Frederick: KyDave: Frederick: After reading through much of the thread it seems clear to me that one side of the issue is represented by logic, facts and rationale and the other side is arguing from a position of emotion (essentially fear).
And if people have learned anything from the war on drugs and terrorism it's that emotion trumps logic every time. The rational people are not getting involved enough.
\All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

Wow, great post:
"Gee, there's two sides to the debate and one of them is silly. I'm not telling you which side I'm on, you'll have to guess. -quote some famous guy-"
Nifty. Whoever wins the World Series is the team I've always rooted for. Why would waste my time (like some people) cheering for the losing side?
/ In-ter-jec-tion: Wow! Gee! Nifty!
// Hurray! I'm for the other team!!
/// Or by a comma when the feeling's not as strong

So...youre on the emotional side then -got it. 'Cause you sure didnt bring any logic to it.

IDK how you can classify me, as my comments did not indicate a stance for either side. They were an observation that yours were likewise devoid of stance... just as too is your rebuttal.

I have a very tiny brain: Could you please tell me what side you're on? 'Cause it still seems like you're saying, "there are two sides of this issue. I'm on the side that's not dumb." My guess is that you want to be on the 'logic' side, but I wouldn't want to be presumptuous.

Heck, I might even agree with you (as if you were hoping for an endorsement from tiny-brained little ole me), if I knew WTH you were trying to say. Thanks much.


That comment was merely an observation on the conversation at that point. To me the comments read like:

"Aiigghh! The bad bogey man gonna get me, lock 'em up!"
"Well, it's more complicated than that."
"No! Lock them up even more until I feel safe!"
"Studies, statistics, and expert opinion suggest greater incarceration isnt the answer."

The thread did turn to a more rational discourse before I quit paying attention. I even had a refreshingly civil differing of opinions with DrewCurtisJr.

You're probably getting a feel for where I stand. I'm not sure "sides" were clearly defined on this article's subject; but if they were between greater or lessor incarceration, I'd side on lesser. More clearly; I'd prefer having fewer punishable infractions (especially in regards to victimless crimes) while punishing more severely those crimes which are violent in nature or extreme in loss.

For example the drug users and prostitutes would be generally dismissed while the pedophile and defrauder is put away for life or worse.

Yet it seems like the prison system is full of the former and frees the latter.
 
2012-10-29 05:33:28 AM  

Frederick: KyDave: Frederick: KyDave: Frederick:
(snip)
The thread did turn to a more rational discourse before I quit paying attention. I even had a refreshingly civil differing of opinions with DrewCurtisJr.

You're probably getting a feel for where I stand. I'm not sure "sides" were clearly defined on this article's subject; but if they were between greater or lessor incarceration, I'd side on lesser. More clearly; I'd prefer having fewer punishable infractions (especially in regards to victimless crimes) while punishing more severely those crimes which are violent in nature or extreme in loss.

For example the drug users and prostitutes would be generally dismissed while the pedophile and defrauder is put away for life or worse.

Yet it seems like the prison system is full of the former and frees the latter.


I tend to avoid the term "victimless crimes", as an offender may have only been charged with a particular act this time around but may have been in the process of progressing to a more serious offense - or may have avoided capture for some other set of acts. Certainly this is a broad, blanket-type statement that will not apply to any number of individuals.

However, as a for instance, consider drug offenses. While smoking a doob is pretty tame in and of itself, an argument could be made that this and other "quality of life" 'crimes' (e.g.: loitering) have an overall effect on the community that society has deemed unacceptable. Does that mean they're bad? I dunno - I've got my own opinion that they probably are not in the vast majority of cases.

But what about the next level of QoL 'crimes' - like harder drugs or prostitution? I understand (and even accept most of) the libertarian-style view of "my own body - my own business"... and as long as you keep it contained to your own body, I don't really have an issue. But when your habit grows bigger than you paycheck, or you're walking for Johns in front of my house: then what? If you're stealing stuff just to get the next hit or making quick $20's in the alley by my house where my kids are playing ball (As if! More like: the alley where my kids are playing DS's and listening to iPods) , haven't you begun to move away from it being only "your" body that's involved?

Again, I don't really take issue with what somebody else chooses to do with themselves -- as long as their choice doesn't implicitly include - or limit - my choices. Are there, then, cases where druggies and 'hos should be let go: probably. Are there cases where they shouldn't: probably. So far, we don't seem to disagree much.

We also seem to agree that violent criminals and rip-offs should be spirited off to PMITA-style dark, scary places.

So, to the point of TFA: perhaps there are too many "punishable infractions" as you say. 51% of Federal incarcerations are for 'Drug Offenses" followed (distantly) by weapons and imigration. However, that is at the Federal level -- doubtfully there are many common, street corner dopers and prostitutes in those numbers. Those folks would more likely be in state or local institutions, and my quick little query to Mr. Google couldn't find such handy numbers about that.

I did find that 735,601 persons are incarcerated at the city/county level (June, 2011), but no indication about violent/non-violent statistics. It was interesting to discover that "(a)bout 4 in 10 inmates were sentenced offenders or convicted offenders awaiting sentencing", with the balance being
folks that "were in jail awaiting court action on a current charge."

From this, admittedly, quick and cursory look it would seem that the issue is not a question of whether incarceration is/is not "the answer". Perhaps the answer lies is streamlining the hearing process, as that represents 60% of the prison population (city/county, anyway). Having speedier trials would make more room for the bogey men - while society discusses just how bad some of them really are (or aren't, as it were).

/ So there, Mr. "I'm So Logical" Nanny-Nanny Boo-Boo
 
2012-10-29 06:18:46 AM  
I appreciate the cool thoughtful response. I can work with almost all of your position except I'd like to draw attention to one point you made.

KyDave: But what about the next level of QoL 'crimes' - like harder drugs or prostitution? I understand (and even accept most of) the libertarian-style view of "my own body - my own business"... and as long as you keep it contained to your own body, I don't really have an issue. But when your habit grows bigger than you paycheck, or you're walking for Johns in front of my house: then what? If you're stealing stuff just to get the next hit or making quick $20's in the alley by my house where my kids are playing ball (As if! More like: the alley where my kids are playing DS's and listening to iPods) , haven't you begun to move away from it being only "your" body that's involved?


The bolded excerpt is really a matter of aesthetics -so to speak, not a crime in any other way (besides prostitution which in our scenario is not illegal). And if we as society find "undesirables" intolerable to be seen, then where do we draw that line; the homeless, the handicapped, the fugly?

The underlined sections are instances of actions that would already and otherwise be illegal. Stealing is certainly not victimless and fundamentally offensive. Prostitution wouldnt be illegal in our hypothetical scenario but I think we'd agree that public indecency would still be. Get a room, right?

If the legal system were to stop outlawing victimless "crimes" (QoL as you say) then society would have to improve it's tolerance accordingly. We'd have to learn to think "is that wrong because I dont like it, or, do I not like it because it is wrong?"

A quote I often remind myself of when viewing behavior in others:

"The hardest part of living in a free society, is affording those freedoms to others."

Or is that persons behavior really affecting me?  I personally dont like hip-hop culture; the clothes, the music, the style -but I need to understand that it doesnt really affect me and tolerate it as opposed to making laws prohibiting low-rise pants.
 
2012-10-29 07:14:26 AM  

Frederick: I appreciate the cool thoughtful response. I can work with almost all of your position except I'd like to draw attention to one point you made.

KyDave: But what about the next level of QoL 'crimes' - like harder drugs or prostitution? I understand (and even accept most of) the libertarian-style view of "my own body - my own business"... and as long as you keep it contained to your own body, I don't really have an issue. But when your habit grows bigger than you paycheck, or you're walking for Johns in front of my house: then what? If you're stealing stuff just to get the next hit or making quick $20's in the alley by my house where my kids are playing ball (As if! More like: the alley where my kids are playing DS's and listening to iPods) , haven't you begun to move away from it being only "your" body that's involved?

The bolded excerpt is really a matter of aesthetics -so to speak, not a crime in any other way (besides prostitution which in our scenario is not illegal). And if we as society find "undesirables" intolerable to be seen, then where do we draw that line; the homeless, the handicapped, the fugly?

The underlined sections are instances of actions that would already and otherwise be illegal. Stealing is certainly not victimless and fundamentally offensive. Prostitution wouldnt be illegal in our hypothetical scenario but I think we'd agree that public indecency would still be. Get a room, right?

If the legal system were to stop outlawing victimless "crimes" (QoL as you say) then society would have to improve it's tolerance accordingly. We'd have to learn to think "is that wrong because I dont like it, or, do I not like it because it is wrong?"

A quote I often remind myself of when viewing behavior in others:

"The hardest part of living in a free society, is affording those freedoms to others."

Or is that persons behavior really affecting me?  I personally dont like hip-hop culture; the clothes, the music, the style -but I need to understand that it do ...


Going to bed soon, but: the bolded part leads to the underlined part. (soliticting ---> alley BJ's). I'm not entirely sold on "allowing" public - and here I mean street walking as opposed to an ad in the Yellow Pages - solicitation for hookers.

The line gets drawn at whatever the society's officials have deemed illegal. That's how it's supposed to work. That way, if the society disagrees with the leaders, we get elect new ones next time to change stuff. If it's legal to work a John: where is your line?? The door to 'the room'; the edge of the hotel's parking lot; the bus stop; my front porch?? I guess it would have to spelled out in the statute, so that everybody knows the rules (boundries). Anyway, that's a minor quibble - I'll cede the point for the present.

I agree with the notion that laws should not be used to make people "stop liking what I don't like". But as previously said, as long as what you do doesn't impact somebody else's range of choices, smoke 'em if you got em'.

However, from my drug-addled days of yesteryear, I came to realize that my victims were my family and friends who had to deal with my inability to make or abide rational, reasonable choices. I addition to having/using the substances, I can look back and see times when I did break society's laws to support my habits - and I sure trampled on the folks around me. So, did I live in a vacuum: no? Should I have been locked up for being an dummy: I'd like to say "no - I never 'really' hurt anybody". But is that true?

I dunno. I know my un-CSB is entirely anecdotal, and I gotta go to bed. I'll check back later - tater.
 
2012-10-29 02:50:28 PM  

PC LOAD LETTER: I truly don't farking care. Don't like it? Don't be a crim.




Done. I'm not reading any further.
 
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