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(Slate)   Who said it: a Christian conservative, or an Islamic fundamentalist?   (slate.com) divider line 239
    More: Scary, Islamic, Pennsylvania Senate, Indiana Senate, radical feminists, Missouri Senate, Islamic fundamentalists, social conservatives, Fundamentalist Christianity  
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9998 clicks; posted to Politics » on 27 Oct 2012 at 2:42 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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ecl
2012-10-27 03:41:54 AM
6/9
Both sides are bad. So vote Republican.
 
2012-10-27 03:42:46 AM
8/9. Do I know my narrow-minded, hate-infused, power-hungry, control-freaky, fear-laden, bile-spewing misogynists or what?
 
2012-10-27 03:45:29 AM
7/9, but I have to admit, the two I missed were the two I hadn't seen quoted someplace else already.
 
2012-10-27 03:52:46 AM
4/9

Scary part?

I clicked randomly.
 
2012-10-27 03:54:36 AM

abb3w: coco ebert: Just based on those quotes, it seems as though Islamists lean towards viewing women as potentially too powerful- they are dangerous because of their sexual prowess and seductive power whereas as Christianists view women as powerless- weak and stupider than men.

Particularly interesting once emphasis is added. Contrast:

Hierarchical Linear Modelling indicated that attitudes towards a 'dangerous' groups domain was significantly related only with RWA, attitudes toward a second 'derogated' groups domain was related only to SDO, and attitudes toward a third, 'dissident' groups, domain was significantly related to both, but powerfully with RWA and weakly with SDO. -- (doi:10.1002/per.614)


That came to my mind. From wikipedia:

RWA beliefs are activated by social threat or threatening outgroups
SDO beliefs are activated by competition and intergroup inequalities in status and power
RWA is a stronger predictor of prejudice when the outgroup is threatening
When group status is unstable, SDO is associated with higher ingroup bias than when group status is stable


Which seems to conclude that Islamic fundamentalism is more aligned with RWA, while Christian conservatism is more aligned with SDO?

This would make sense: Islamic fundamentalism being more about rigid moralism, belief in authoritarian leaders, and defending against despised outgroups, while christian conservatism is more about maintaining the stability of social hierarchies (with white men at the top, of course) by exploiting intergroup biases.
 
2012-10-27 04:02:03 AM
Eight of nine. If they were afraid of women it was Islamic. If they hated women it was Christian.
 
2012-10-27 04:02:47 AM
Comparing [blacks] by their faculties of memory, reason, and imagination, it appears to me, that in memory they are equal to the whites; in reason much inferior, as I think one could scarcely be found capable of tracing and comprehending the investigations of Euclid; and that in imagination they are dull, tasteless, and anomalous.

KKK Grand Wizard David Duke or preeminent American statesman and philosopher Thomas Jefferson

/everyone is capable of saying stupid shiat
 
2012-10-27 04:08:54 AM

bhcompy: Comparing [blacks] by their faculties of memory, reason, and imagination, it appears to me, that in memory they are equal to the whites; in reason much inferior, as I think one could scarcely be found capable of tracing and comprehending the investigations of Euclid; and that in imagination they are dull, tasteless, and anomalous.

KKK Grand Wizard David Duke or preeminent American statesman and philosopher Thomas Jefferson

/everyone is capable of saying stupid shiat


yet you had to go back over 200 years to make your point.
 
2012-10-27 04:19:03 AM
Holy shiat i got an 8 out of 9. Scary.
 
2012-10-27 04:20:03 AM
8/9, missing just the last one. But I did read this thread first, so I may have gotten a bit of forewarning. Course, I also recognized some of the quotes.
 
2012-10-27 04:21:49 AM

Amos Quito: Someone feels left out.


/From who did Fundie Christianity and Fundie Islam pick up their misogyny?


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
pretty much. not cool to render Judaism's fundies invisible.
 
2012-10-27 04:23:15 AM
I do think the Islam quotes actually were MORE respectful of women than the American Fundie ones. They at least consider women strong, dangerous, and worthy of protection, if not equality.
 
2012-10-27 04:24:45 AM
9/0 , mine blew up.
 
2012-10-27 04:31:37 AM
7/9. Not that hard. Islamic fundamentalists tend to blame women for being sexy these days.
 
2012-10-27 04:33:18 AM
Got 9 out of 9. Sigh.

I've been beating my head against a wall for at least 10 years now trying to show some Christians how they're the EXACT same as the people they hate (which they'll never admit. They do it, but they won't call it hate). It's two sides of the same coin. These same people cannot grasp that you can't have democracy and theocracy at the same time.

/Born again evangelical Christian since 1981
 
2012-10-27 04:36:04 AM
if you eliminate religious beliefs and practices on the entire planet do you think you will be left with a world filled with people who are kind, fair, respectful, understanding and non-violent?

having a planet of people who are kind, fair, respectful, understanding and non-violent seems like a worthwhile goal. maybe all you have to do is kill everyone who has religious beliefs and practices then all will be bliss.
 
2012-10-27 04:36:55 AM

intelligent comment below: ExperianScaresCthulhu: Amos Quito: Someone feels left out.


/From who did Fundie Christianity and Fundie Islam pick up their misogyny?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
pretty much. not cool to render Judaism's fundies invisible.


I find it strange how people who preach white power and White European dominance over every other living creature like Amos Quito claims can simultaneously cry about being controlled by such a small number of Semites past and present.

What's even more bizarre is to claim Jewish fundamentalists are in any way similar to fundamentalist Christians and Muslims.


They do have a particular set of very different skills:

www.iamboredr.com
 
2012-10-27 04:44:02 AM

Alphax: I do think the Islam quotes actually were MORE respectful of women than the American Fundie ones. They at least consider women strong, dangerous, and worthy of protection, if not equality.


In the Islamic society, those in power stay there by maintaining a status quo that depends on keeping women downtrodden.

Republicans only hold power over half of America. Islamic leaders usually have control of much more than half, and they would like to keep it that way.

They aren't simply dismissive as an ignorant American misogynist might be.. they recognize women as a threat to their power and treat it accordingly. With cautious respect and understanding for their potential.
 
2012-10-27 04:46:07 AM

Alphax: I do think the Islam quotes actually were MORE respectful of women than the American Fundie ones


You're confusing respect with fear.
Muslim sure are very thorough. For example they can teach you how to properly beat the shiat out of your wife according to Islam.
 
2012-10-27 04:52:04 AM

iEatPennies: Christians how they're the EXACT same as the people they hate (which they'll never admit. They do it, but they won't call it hate). It's two sides of the same coin.


I wouldn't say they're exactly the same.

Social conservatives are trying to maintain a social order where women are subservient (through ridicule and derision), while radical Islamists are still working to popularize such a social order (through claims of moral superiority to "Western" notions of gender equality, and through fear).

Kinda implies that in the names, actually, "conservative" versus "radical."

Anyway, this current strain of Islamic fundamentalism isn't very old, maybe 60 years? And it's reactionary.
 
2012-10-27 04:53:00 AM
Had no fear:

newsimg.bbc.co.uk
 
2012-10-27 04:58:17 AM

intelligent comment below: bhcompy: Comparing [blacks] by their faculties of memory, reason, and imagination, it appears to me, that in memory they are equal to the whites; in reason much inferior, as I think one could scarcely be found capable of tracing and comprehending the investigations of Euclid; and that in imagination they are dull, tasteless, and anomalous.

KKK Grand Wizard David Duke or preeminent American statesman and philosopher Thomas Jefferson

/everyone is capable of saying stupid shiat


Back then they had no science telling them all the races were equal in everything but skin pigment

So what's your excuse now?


Err, well, science doesn't tell us that today, either, since science(that is biological anthropology) says there aren't any races
 
2012-10-27 04:58:38 AM
7 of 9.

/please post more pics of her
 
2012-10-27 05:00:47 AM

MurphyMurphy: In the Islamic society, those in power stay there by maintaining a status quo that depends on keeping women downtrodden.


I would say that it's the opposite. We have hundreds of years of history of a "white guy is the boss" status quo to harken back to. The cowboy hero saves the little lady in every action flick.

The middle east used to be more progressive, until guys like Qutb came along and said that "Western" progressiveness went against Sharia, and thus Islam, so bring out the burqas.
 
2012-10-27 05:03:10 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope:
Indeed. I've been asking forever, though, why anyone thinks Christian fundamentalists are any different from the Islamists. I've never gotten an answer other than "Because WE worship the one TRUE God!"


I love to point out when my relatives go full Islamophobe on me that Jews, Muslims, and Christians all worship the same God: The God of Abraham.
 
2012-10-27 05:07:34 AM

KrispyKritter: if you eliminate religious beliefs and practices on the entire planet do you think you will be left with a world filled with people who are kind, fair, respectful, understanding and non-violent?

having a planet of people who are kind, fair, respectful, understanding and non-violent seems like a worthwhile goal. maybe all you have to do is kill everyone who has religious beliefs and practices then all will be bliss.


Well since the majority of the planet is religious, it easier just to kill the non-believers.
 
2012-10-27 05:20:35 AM
markie_farkie:

impaler: It's always hats

Or beards. I'd make a shiatty terrorist. I can't grow a beard to save my life.

*shakes tiny fist at Mohawk Indian great-great grandmother*


If clothes and beards make the man, then uh oh... I had the ZZ-Topp / Ogden Nash beard in my high-school and college years. Then I found out later when my beard was well-streaked with white that I can totally rock a dashiki.

Strangely, I have never had any murderous urges towards those evil harlots with XX chromosomes.
 
2012-10-27 05:24:40 AM

Summoner101: intelligent comment below: ExperianScaresCthulhu: Amos Quito: Someone feels left out.


/From who did Fundie Christianity and Fundie Islam pick up their misogyny?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
pretty much. not cool to render Judaism's fundies invisible.


I find it strange how people who preach white power and White European dominance over every other living creature like Amos Quito claims can simultaneously cry about being controlled by such a small number of Semites past and present.

What's even more bizarre is to claim Jewish fundamentalists are in any way similar to fundamentalist Christians and Muslims.

They do have a particular set of very different skills:

[www.iamboredr.com image 450x335]


Is that a reversed "monkey steals a peach" stance?
 
2012-10-27 05:24:49 AM
4.bp.blogspot.com
sdbv.missouristate.edu
www.allfordmustangs.com
 
2012-10-27 05:31:26 AM

iEatPennies: Got 9 out of 9. Sigh.

I've been beating my head against a wall for at least 10 years now trying to show some Christians how they're the EXACT same as the people they hate (which they'll never admit. They do it, but they won't call it hate). It's two sides of the same coin. These same people cannot grasp that you can't have democracy and theocracy at the same time.

/Born again evangelical Christian since 1981


Wait, if they were EXACTLY the same, you wouldnt have been able to tell them apart in the quiz, no?

(maybe its YOU)
 
2012-10-27 05:47:51 AM

I sound fat: iEatPennies: Got 9 out of 9. Sigh.

I've been beating my head against a wall for at least 10 years now trying to show some Christians how they're the EXACT same as the people they hate (which they'll never admit. They do it, but they won't call it hate). It's two sides of the same coin. These same people cannot grasp that you can't have democracy and theocracy at the same time.

/Born again evangelical Christian since 1981

Wait, if they were EXACTLY the same, you wouldnt have been able to tell them apart in the quiz, no?

(maybe its YOU)


Maybe what is him?

That doesn't even make sense.
 
2012-10-27 05:57:22 AM

iEatPennies: I've been beating my head against a wall for at least 10 years now trying to show some Christians how they're the EXACT same as the people they hate (which they'll never admit. They do it, but they won't call it hate). It's two sides of the same coin. These same people cannot grasp that you can't have democracy and theocracy at the same time.


Actually, some of the uber-right wants to do away with democracy. They say you can't have democracy and liberty at the same time. (But they don't see a conflict between theocracy and liberty, go figure.)

/Born again evangelical Christian since 1981

Why are you siding with them? If you dislike theocracy, shouldn't you become one of the "liberal Christians" that evangelicals despise?
 
2012-10-27 06:00:25 AM

I sound fat: Wait, if they were EXACTLY the same, you wouldnt have been able to tell them apart in the quiz, no?


Because every culture in the world speaks exactly the same. every phrase translated into english will always sound exactly like it came from an speaker of American English.

Or maybe...It's YOU!!!
 
2012-10-27 06:02:25 AM

pciszek: Why are you siding with them? If you dislike theocracy, shouldn't you become one of the "liberal Christians" that evangelicals despise?


How in the world is he siding with them if he's trying to point out their hypocrisy to them?
 
2012-10-27 06:05:36 AM

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: Eight of nine. If they were afraid of women it was Islamic. If they hated women it was Christian.


"It is forbidden for a woman to serve as member of Knesset, it's not modest," the rabbi said. "Public exposure contradicts the Jewish principle that 'all the glory of the daughter of a king is internal,'" Aviner added in comments first published on the Kipa website. Link
 
2012-10-27 06:06:59 AM

MisterTweak: "A child who disrespects his parents must be permanently removed from society in a way that gives an example to all other children of the importance of respect for parents. The death penalty for rebellious children is not something to be taken lightly."
- Charlie Fuqua, Republican candidate for Arkansas State House of Representatives, in his book God's Law: The Only Political Solution


Hey Charlie, Someone has some news FOR YOU.
Jesus Christ: "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." Matthew 18:6
 
2012-10-27 06:10:42 AM

G.I.R.B.: 4/9

Scary part?

I clicked randomly.


Somebody doesn't know how probabilities work.

Incidentally, I got the same score. Some of those really fooled me.
 
2012-10-27 06:13:38 AM

KrispyKritter: if you eliminate religious beliefs and practices on the entire planet do you think you will be left with a world filled with people who are kind, fair, respectful, understanding and non-violent?


No, but at least it would be a good start. No one would bury his daughter up to her shoulders and stone her to death, throw acid on girls on their way to school, or assassinate doctors. No one would be trying to outlaw birth control, or care if gays wanted to get married.
 
2012-10-27 06:16:18 AM
9/9
 
2012-10-27 06:17:16 AM

pciszek: No, but at least it would be a good start. No one would bury his daughter up to her shoulders and stone her to death, throw acid on girls on their way to school, or assassinate doctors. No one would be trying to outlaw birth control, or care if gays wanted to get married.


If you actually had the understanding you were wishing for, you wouldn't blame all religious for the non-religious acts of extremists.
 
2012-10-27 06:18:04 AM

abb3w: coco ebert: Just based on those quotes, it seems as though Islamists lean towards viewing women as potentially too powerful- they are dangerous because of their sexual prowess and seductive power whereas as Christianists view women as powerless- weak and stupider than men.

Particularly interesting once emphasis is added. Contrast:

Hierarchical Linear Modelling indicated that attitudes towards a 'dangerous' groups domain was significantly related only with RWA, attitudes toward a second 'derogated' groups domain was related only to SDO, and attitudes toward a third, 'dissident' groups, domain was significantly related to both, but powerfully with RWA and weakly with SDO. -- (doi:10.1002/per.614)


I'm hung over. Can you translate?
 
2012-10-27 06:25:32 AM

milkyshirt: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 450x494]
[sdbv.missouristate.edu image 500x608]
[www.allfordmustangs.com image 320x500]


I am Dyslexic of Brog. Your ass will be laminated.


/obligatory
 
2012-10-27 06:25:32 AM

Kurmudgeon: pciszek: No, but at least it would be a good start. No one would bury his daughter up to her shoulders and stone her to death, throw acid on girls on their way to school, or assassinate doctors. No one would be trying to outlaw birth control, or care if gays wanted to get married.

If you actually had the understanding you were wishing for, you wouldn't blame all religious for the non-religious acts of extremists.


He did what?
 
2012-10-27 06:33:02 AM

pciszek: KrispyKritter: if you eliminate religious beliefs and practices on the entire planet do you think you will be left with a world filled with people who are kind, fair, respectful, understanding and non-violent?

No, but at least it would be a good start. No one would bury his daughter up to her shoulders and stone her to death, throw acid on girls on their way to school, or assassinate doctors. No one would be trying to outlaw birth control, or care if gays wanted to get married.


I hate religious extremists as much as the next guy, but I have to say I'm not sure that statement would hold true.

Knowing our species, I think we are just as likely to come up with new reasons to inflict pain and suffering on others as we are to be peaceful and happy without religion.

I'm agnostic. I just don't know. Not sure I want to know. I can barely understand a believer. I can't on my life imagine what goes on in a fundamentalist's or extremist's head.

But...

I'm also not sold on the idea that religion has caused net evil over good in the world. It is much easier to attribute and quantify negative acts done in the name of religion that it is to quantify the goodness and inspiration that has come out of it. Not to mention the evil acts always stand out more and get more attention.

Religion seems (to me anyways) to be the conduit through which man funnels his will. But it's human will that is the root of the problem.
Atheist movements have also displayed the ability to squelch human compassion in the presence of an overriding ethos.

Want world peace?
Well, like Marley said, when the power of love overcomes the love of power, you will have it.
 
2012-10-27 06:38:06 AM

Tarkus: There's a difference?


Yes. Islamic fundamentalists are powerless over here.
 
2012-10-27 06:41:25 AM

Alphax: He did what?


He blamed all religious for the crimes you have listed in pcizek's post.
If nothing else, it shows the dangers of blaming whole groups for the actions of invidiudals. The individuals hide within the group while the innocent are often punished instead. Then when the innocent are punished, others of their group get militant and the cycle continues.
/wash rinse repeat
.
 
2012-10-27 06:42:47 AM

MurphyMurphy: I hate religious extremists as much as the next guy, but I have to say I'm not sure that statement would hold true.

Knowing our species, I think we are just as likely to come up with new reasons to inflict pain and suffering on others as we are to be peaceful and happy without religion.


I think so too. Many kinds of ideologies, religious or not, have been used for great evil. I'd say the problem with religion is not religion an sich, but mass religion.
 
2012-10-27 06:44:49 AM

Kurmudgeon: Alphax: He did what?

He blamed all religious for the crimes you have listed in pcizek's post.
If nothing else, it shows the dangers of blaming whole groups for the actions of invidiudals. The individuals hide within the group while the innocent are often punished instead. Then when the innocent are punished, others of their group get militant and the cycle continues.
/wash rinse repeat
.


I'm still confused by calling those crimes 'non-religious acts'.
 
2012-10-27 06:45:55 AM

bhcompy: intelligent comment below: bhcompy: Comparing [blacks] by their faculties of memory, reason, and imagination, it appears to me, that in memory they are equal to the whites; in reason much inferior, as I think one could scarcely be found capable of tracing and comprehending the investigations of Euclid; and that in imagination they are dull, tasteless, and anomalous.

KKK Grand Wizard David Duke or preeminent American statesman and philosopher Thomas Jefferson

/everyone is capable of saying stupid shiat


Back then they had no science telling them all the races were equal in everything but skin pigment

So what's your excuse now?

Err, well, science doesn't tell us that today, either, since science(that is biological anthropology) says there aren't any races


You just said the same thing. Equal, equivalent, no fundamental distinction other than skin pigment, no meaningful biological (only social/cultural) differences by race...

Anyway, 200 year old quotes aren't doing you any favors. Why are you defending religious bigotry?
 
2012-10-27 06:47:36 AM

MurphyMurphy: pciszek: KrispyKritter: if you eliminate religious beliefs and practices on the entire planet do you think you will be left with a world filled with people who are kind, fair, respectful, understanding and non-violent?

No, but at least it would be a good start. No one would bury his daughter up to her shoulders and stone her to death, throw acid on girls on their way to school, or assassinate doctors. No one would be trying to outlaw birth control, or care if gays wanted to get married.

I hate religious extremists as much as the next guy, but I have to say I'm not sure that statement would hold true.

Knowing our species, I think we are just as likely to come up with new reasons to inflict pain and suffering on others as we are to be peaceful and happy without religion.

I'm agnostic. I just don't know. Not sure I want to know. I can barely understand a believer. I can't on my life imagine what goes on in a fundamentalist's or extremist's head.

But...

I'm also not sold on the idea that religion has caused net evil over good in the world. It is much easier to attribute and quantify negative acts done in the name of religion that it is to quantify the goodness and inspiration that has come out of it. Not to mention the evil acts always stand out more and get more attention.

Religion seems (to me anyways) to be the conduit through which man funnels his will. But it's human will that is the root of the problem.
Atheist movements have also displayed the ability to squelch human compassion in the presence of an overriding ethos.

Want world peace?
Well, like Marley said, when the power of love overcomes the love of power, you will have it.


All human systems eventually fail due to the failings of the human condition. We have the ability to create a world where everyone has a place to live and enough to eat, but not the will. We invariably let a tiny few of the most selfish and sociopathic among us to sequester the majority of the resources/wealth and leave everyone else to squabble over the crumbs. Maybe its natural for us to suffer in the service of our "betters".
 
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