whidbey
Obama isn't trying to get rid of unions.

Could've farking fooled me.


Silverstaff
Because we don't have single payer RIGHT NOW it's not good enough

It's not good enough, that's true. Thousands of people are dying for no good reason. Is there an amount of time or body count we need to wait for until it suddenly becomes a problem?

The Democrats in particular are not good enough, because they refuse to even make the slightest effort to advocate, much less implement, programs which would actually solve these problems. They don't fight for them, they don't even say they're in favor of them... what the fark makes any of you think they actually want them? What the fark makes any of you think you can actually push out the entrenched Blue Dogs and Good-Old-Boys networks and make the Democratic Party genuinely progressive? For the amount of organization it would take, you might as well just act in the farking real work, and actually make a farking difference.

When I was young and naive, I thought like he did, that it was all the same, that there was no difference between Republicans and Democrats, that it was all a shell game. It's false sophistry, it's that sort of fake wisdom you get when you're in college and think you know so much you've started to see it all.

I was a Democrat. I worked for the local bastards. They sold us out at every opportunity. They only care about themselves and patronage.

For fark's sake, under Mike Tate's 'leadership' of the DPW, Wisconsin has moved from solidly blue to solidly red, and this guy STILL hasn't resigned or been removed! Holy farking shiat, what does someone have to do to get fired around here?

Maybe at one point both parties were so similiar that there was some truth to that, at least a kernel of truth, but nowadays the right has gone far-right, and the only way to put the breaks on that national rightward slide is for the center and left to stand together and pull. . .the levers on ballot boxes.

The phrase "fetish object" springs to mind...


whidbey
You can go do your little dance in Hell, now.

I remember my Aunt saying under her breath a few years ago that she thought Obama is just the devil...

Actually, not voting is all is a vote for the greater evil.

To vote is to give consent. What advice do you give to people who refuse to participate in any evil? "Get a job"?


MurphyMurphy
Maybe one vote doesn't do shiat, but you sure as hell aren't going to change anything lying down.

For aforementioned reasons: fark you, fark you, fark you. This is bullshiat. THERE ARE MORE OPTIONS THAN "VOTE" AND "DO NOTHING"!


MO_humanist
The tea party seems to think it does. 2010 was a big change from 2008. An organized left could do the same to the makup of the democratic party.

The Democrats had their chance, around 2004-6. We gave them Congress on the belief they would end the farking war. They refused. We've seen where their true loyalties sit. When they tried to turn Occupy into their version of the Tea Party, we spat in their face; so they sent in the dogs. That's just how it's going to be from now on. If your strategy rests on us kissing and making up, get a new strategy.

RanDomino: For aforementioned reasons: fark you, fark you, fark you. This is bullshiat. THERE ARE MORE OPTIONS THAN "VOTE" AND "DO NOTHING"!

Yeah, like posting on the internet. Right?

RanDomino: To vote is to give consent. What advice do you give to people who refuse to participate in any evil? "Get a job"?

I'd say: go find some place to build your evil-free utopia.

The rest of us live in reality and are trying to participate in this thing called society.

What is your plan? (...besides the whole whining and crying about your alleged disillusion and disappointment)

milkyshirt: All the bitter posts about how the system is so corrupt and every candidate is actually the same remind me of David Icke and the other Illuminati conspiracy nuts.

It's necessary to have justifications for dismissing troubling viewpoints.

Some people just cant handle the red pill.

MurphyMurphy
Yeah, like posting on the internet. Right?

You could:
Start/join a community radio channel and/or newsletter, to route around the corporate media

Start/join a grassroots and solidarity-based union branch like the IWW rather than 'business unions' that suck power out of the hands of the workers

Start/join a worker-owned/managed cooperative business

Support political prisoners

Support (or join!) people engaging in direct action to stop environmental destruction, such as the Keystone XL blockade in Texas or attempts to interfere with MTR coal mining in Appalachia

Take over a state capitol building

Grow as much of your own food as possible, learn how to cook and preserve it, and spread these skills to your community (maybe on a Freeschool model). Learn other skills that you would ordinarily have to pay someone for to reduce your reliance on a job or government program whose existence you cannot control.

Start/join a Copwatch patrol to document police brutality


whidbey
Not voting should be punishable by some kind of higher taxes or something.

That's cool. Double 'em. Two times zero is still zero.

Mandatory community service.

Tell me again how your team is so different from the fascists?

RanDomino: Take over a state capitol building

Everything you listed would be ineffective, some comically so (the pirate radio station and small-press newsletter I got a laugh out of), but this one would be suicidal.

I've worked police security details for a state capitol building. You do realize that they are patrolled by a number of men with badges and guns (and tasers, and pepper spray, and batons), who are allowed to use those things? Not just uniformed officers, but plainclothes ones too. People who train constantly for domestic terrorism incidents and are ready and waiting to deal with somebody who makes trouble on their beat?

You do realize that trying to "take over" a building that has a state Governor, state legislators and the state Supreme Court in it would get you on the business end of a sidearm real quick, while a SWAT team with even bigger weapons was called?

Hell, trying to "take over" a state capital building as some extreme leftist political move (by somebody who apparently espouses outright Communist viewpoints, judging by your support of the known Communist front group the IWW) would pretty much be auditioning for a Darwin Award. . .and getting some stiff political backlash probably from the media, and imagine the talking heads on FOX News getting wind of it and the breathless propaganda about how communists are trying to forcibly seize power.

I get it you're progressive, you want to make a difference, you want to help. . .but in the words of Jon Stewart:



Seriously, work within the system, drop the revolutionary angst, and play the game and you can get ahead. Keep bucking the system and you'll get nowhere, and if you keep going like you're talking you'll wind up in jail, or worse.

Silverstaff
Everything you listed would be ineffective, some comically so (the pirate radio station and small-press newsletter I got a laugh out of), but this one would be suicidal.

We did it for three weeks last year. Two weeks later, 10,000 people did it again despite it being on lockdown and defended. I know, I know, the bastards have done a great job of making sure it went down the Memory Hole...

RanDomino: Silverstaff
Everything you listed would be ineffective, some comically so (the pirate radio station and small-press newsletter I got a laugh out of), but this one would be suicidal.

We did it for three weeks last year. Two weeks later, 10,000 people did it again despite it being on lockdown and defended. I know, I know, the bastards have done a great job of making sure it went down the Memory Hole...

You took over a state capital building for three weeks last year?

You mean you did an Occupy-style sit in? You found a spot on the floor and squatted there with some protest signs? Three weeks, 24/7, and weren't arrested for trespassing or run off? I'm skeptical, to say the least. Also, a protest sit-in is not a "take over". Taking over a building implies going in with weapons, seizing control, holding the area, being able to deny access to others.

Also, you are claiming that 10,000 people stormed a state capital building that was on "lockdown and defended", as in broke in to a government building being actively defended. . .but somehow magically all reports of this were erased by the Big Bad Government and their hapless shills in The Media? No picture of 10,000 people storming a state capital Bastille-style were posted to Tumblr or Twitter or Facebook? 10,000 people storming a government building, and no FOX News report of thousands of anti-government communist militants trying to overthrow the government? No reports of mass arrests? No triumphant news releases by the leaders of the. . .oh wait, Occupy didn't have leaders, so nobody to speak up when anything is successful.

Color me extremely skeptical. Fark that, that's Citation Needed, as in an actual media cite and not somebodies blog.

Oh wait, you can't cite anything, you said it's all down the Memory Hole. With all the media coverage of OWS that was happening, all the occupy protests going on, the people posting images to Twitter and FB, 10,000 people stormed a Capital building and somehow there is no verifiable record of it?

Then again, it's easier to play being the oppressed hero when you can claim all records of your great triumphs against The Man were wiped out by The Conspiracy.

Really, you know, I sympathize with your cause, but as I said, this whole "don't vote" thing is childishly naive. It's false sophistication. You'll wake up one day and realize you could have made a difference if you didn't spend all your time running a pirate radio station, flushing your vote away on third-party candidates with 0% chance of ever winning, and

Silverstaff
Color me extremely skeptical. Fark that, that's Citation Needed, as in an actual media cite and not somebodies blog.

Are you farking kidding me? You don't remember this?

RanDomino: Silverstaff
Color me extremely skeptical. Fark that, that's Citation Needed, as in an actual media cite and not somebodies blog.

Are you farking kidding me? You don't remember this?

[www.themattrix.com image 497x331]

No, I had never heard of it. Though, doing some research, I assume you're talking about the Washington State Capital building now, in a protest on November 28, 2011.

Hmm, Seattle Times refers to it as several hundred protesters trying to interfere with the opening of the state legislature, which the state police tolerated during the day when it was mostly peaceful, but arrested and tased a few people who actually tried to interfere with the legislature, then everybody was thrown out when the place closed for the night, and most people left (and staged a protest outside the building), except for a few who tried to stay and got arrested for trespassing.
Link

A local TV station had coverage, Link They reported that there was a protest in the capital during business hours, and when some protesters refused to leave at the end of the day, there were arrests and tazings.

I'd hardly call that taking over a building. You staged a protest. Some people tried, and failed, to remain in their after business hours and to interfere with the workings of government. You honestly think that had more of an impact

Also, Seattle Times reports the number of protesters in the hundreds. Occupy Olympias own website listed the total number of protesters at around 3,000 Link . Both are way short of your claimed 10,000 people, and the act overall was way short of a "take over" of a building that was on "lockdown and defended". The Occupy Olympia website says the protest was specifically over some taxation and public finance related issues, including opposing an increase in the state sales tax.

Okay, you staged a protest at a state capital, over some specific taxation issues. Fair enough. However, if you think voting makes no difference, if the candidates are the same on both parties and you can't influence things at the ballot box, why do you think that staging protests will have any difference either? You don't think that one of your Occupy group should run for state legislature? Take up donations and raise funds, actually get elected to office. Go ahead and run as an independent. If thousands of people put their efforts together and money together at a state level, they could certainly do a lot to get people actually sitting in that legislature that represented their ideals.

You'll find it's far more effective to work with the system than to try to oppose it at every step and reject it entirely.

Silverstaff
No, I had never heard of it. Though, doing some research, I assume you're talking about the Washington State Capital building now, in a protest on November 28, 2011.

It's Wisconsin! Holy farking shiat! Is this how bad things are, that people don't even remember that??