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(BusinessWeek)   Microsoft's Surface tablet will fail because it lacks important apps ... like iTunes   (businessweek.com) divider line 169
    More: Fail, Microsoft Surface, Microsoft, iPads, killer app, open standard, music store, social networking service, iTunes  
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3779 clicks; posted to Geek » on 25 Oct 2012 at 3:16 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-25 07:37:01 PM

theflatline: t3knomanser: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: The iPad, no matter what anyone says, is a giant iPod Touch.

Just as a point: I've written software on the iPad. Not for the iPad. On it. It's certainly not my preferred environment, but it's entirely workable, especially with an external keyboard. Koder is actually one of the better programmer's text editors that I've used on any platform.

On a related note, Visual Studio is absolutely terrible on the Surface. It's all about optimizing for the screen realestate, and VS2012 is an absolute hog. I'm usually running three monitors at the office, and I absolutely refuse to do programming on just the dinky laptop screen.

Also, I've been very disappointed in Win8's touchscreen features. It's really wonky to use, and really- that tile-based app launcher is awful. I'm still not sure how I'm supposed to add widgets to it, not that I've spent much time thinking about it.

So what you you really should have said is while you can code on both, you prefer to code on traditional equipment. Because the IPAD would also qualify as a dinky laptop screen.

And there is a difference between a text editor and a full blown IDE, which you have access to in need of an emergency fix.

Plus with HDMI out on the Surface you have HDMI out so you could literally plug a monitor in. And of course you can always use an external keyboard.

So advantage Surface.


It'll take an extra adapter that you can pick up for maybe $30 but you can do all that stuff, including HDMI, on an iPad too.
 
2012-10-25 07:40:11 PM

meanmutton: What's a DVD?


dl.dropbox.com
 
2012-10-25 07:41:19 PM

Marine1: BullBearMS: Rambino: BullBearMS: It also lacks important apps like a decent e-mail client.

You mean other than Outlook?

Windows RT can't run Outlook.

It doesn't need to run Outlook. Outlook is gross overkill for 90% of people who use email on a tablet.

They offer one for installation. It has bugs, but they're bound to be fixed.


Now we're back to Windows RT Surface lacking a decent e-mail client. Just like the original Blackberry Playbook.
 
2012-10-25 07:45:10 PM

BullBearMS: It also lacks important apps like a decent e-mail client. It's the 2012 version of the Blackberry Playbook.


Look, I know you're just an anti-MS troll, but I'll go ahead and bite anyway.

Who needs an email client? Webmail FTW.

/I don't think I've used a dedicated email client in... going on 15 years now.
 
2012-10-25 07:52:39 PM

Honest Bender: Who needs an email client?


Yes. That's exactly what the idiots at RIM said about the Playbook.
 
2012-10-25 07:58:32 PM

BullBearMS: Honest Bender: Who needs an email client?

Yes. That's exactly what the idiots at RIM said about the Playbook.


I, too, often avoid the question if I don't have an answer. Sure, you end up looking evasive and foolish. But better that than admit you don't know, I suppose.
 
2012-10-25 07:59:08 PM

Brontes: if you don't like Windows 8, to bad, no Linux for you.


And nothing of value was lost.
 
2012-10-25 07:59:21 PM

BullBearMS: Honest Bender: Who needs an email client?

Yes. That's exactly what the idiots at RIM said about the Playbook.


I really want to know how much Apple pays you. You're in every Apple thread lapping at Herr Jobs' rotting balls.

//Per Microsoft the RT can be set up to contact an enterprise email server.
 
2012-10-25 08:02:31 PM
It takes about eight years for Microsoft to copy Apple's software, but I'm impressed that it only took three years to copy Apple's hardware.
 
2012-10-25 08:05:05 PM

Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: It takes about eight years for Microsoft to copy Apple's software, but I'm impressed that it only took three years to copy Apple's hardware.


Is this what the drooling masses really believe? My, how fragile your ego must be...
 
2012-10-25 08:08:25 PM

mjbok: BullBearMS: Honest Bender: Who needs an email client?

Yes. That's exactly what the idiots at RIM said about the Playbook.

RT can be set up to contact an enterprise email server.


That does nothing to fix the shiatty e-mail client.

Windows 8 Mail leaves users pining for the desktop-or even their phones
 
2012-10-25 08:09:07 PM

BullBearMS:

Now we're back to Windows RT Surface lacking a decent e-mail client.


So we're to understand you have used the built in mail client, then? Please enlighten us, what about it is not "decent" in your experience with it?
 
2012-10-25 08:30:04 PM

BullBearMS: Windows 8 Mail leaves users pining for the desktop-or even their phones


Interesting read. I especially like the parts where they said the version previewed wasn't nearly finished. Or how people generally liked it except for the lack of features, which I would guess was likely related to it, you know, not being finished.
 
2012-10-25 08:53:13 PM

drjekel_mrhyde: DjangoStonereaver: serpent_sky: My laptop was dying so I rushed to buy one with Windows 7 before 8 came out. I did not want to be stuck with that seeming nightmare....

I just bought a new HP desktop computer for similar reasons. The only reason I keep any Windows machines around
is because my wife has a Cricut paper cutting machine whose software only runs on it, and I didn't want to risk that
Win8 wouldn't run it.
Why? it(Pro) runs all x86 programs.
/Maybe you mean Windows 8 RT


Its more that I'm worried there won't be drivers for it I guess.
 
2012-10-25 08:55:35 PM

Honest Bender: except for the lack of features


So aside from it lacking basic functionality, it's fine? Just like the Blackberry Playbook!

Then there's the fact that this is a tablet whose major selling point is an Office Suite with basically no touch support whatsoever.

Fail. Just buy a damn netbook. At least they can run real versions of Windows software.
 
2012-10-25 08:57:58 PM
I'm in a rather large IT shop and the general consensus is: Microsoft announces Windows Vista ME.

Not that it's actually horrible, but.. there's just nothing it does that appeals to me either as a user or a buyer. Timing couldn't be worse, remind customers they're on the hook for big ELA fees while they're deciding whether to push users to a 100% virtual solution launched from a very stripped and locked down local host.

I'll add some Apple hate, just because: I figured maybe I was an oddball for not finding the iphone 5 interesting or appealing, but Apple is on a roll here: The new ipad is.. the same exact thing, just slightly smaller. or bigger. And the new imac is supposedly thinner. Or something.

MS has a future, customers know exactly how much it will cost to switch to an alternative to exchange and mssql. Apple has a future selling to people who want exactly what they had last time. Grandparents.
 
2012-10-25 09:00:24 PM

BullBearMS: Honest Bender: except for the lack of features

So aside from it lacking basic functionality, it's fine?


Considering it's pre-release and still in development... YES! And it wasn't basic functionality. They specifically mentioned that it did the basic functions quite well but that it was lacking in "additional" functionality.

Are you prepared to admit you were wrong yet? Or do you want to reply with more lies and spin?
 
2012-10-25 09:11:46 PM

Honest Bender: They specifically mentioned that it did the basic functions quite well but that it was lacking in "additional" functionality.


LOL. In the article about how the Windows RT email program makes people pine for their cell phone instead?

I notice you completely leave out that part about Office and all desktop software on Surface completely lacking any sort of touch interface despite being billed as "no compromises". Why is that?
 
2012-10-25 09:22:11 PM
Who the hell need's microsoft's walled garden? Mobile devices are stupid and irrelevant.
 
2012-10-25 09:25:50 PM
 
2012-10-25 09:38:28 PM
Isn't this kind of a moot issue at this point, because don't most Apple devices, save the Ipod Nano/Classic already have iTunes built in, or at least as a downloadable app?
 
2012-10-25 09:47:57 PM
I'm halfway interested in MS's offering, but I'm already deeply invested in my iPad.

Before you scream "APPLE FANBOY DURR!" let me point out that I also have a very nice Android phone (Samsung Galaxy Exhibit), and I built my gaming PC with an ASUS motherboard, Radeon 7800, 6GB of RAM, and a Phenom II X4 955 with a very nifty CoolerMaster Storm case, so I'm not tied to one company, at all. I get what I can afford, and what works for my needs.

But the thing is, this release of Surface is too little, too late. If MS had been on this tablet thing three years ago, I might be on-board. Unfortunately for them, I've already spent a shiatload on apps and accessories for my iPad, and I'm not going to drop them to switch to a "Windows on a tablet" experience... Not with MS's reputation and record compounding my concerns.

Yes, I owned a Zune HD... And it was nice hardware, but MS did so very little to support it, I had no choice but to dump it before it dropped in value any more.

Yes, I love some MS hardware-- especially some of their mice and keyboards-- But a tablet? After what I saw with the Zune line? Forget it.

I'll stick with the iPad. Everyone else just came in too late, and I'm already dug in like a tick.
 
2012-10-25 09:50:47 PM

BullBearMS: mjbok: BullBearMS: Honest Bender: Who needs an email client?

Yes. That's exactly what the idiots at RIM said about the Playbook.

RT can be set up to contact an enterprise email server.

That does nothing to fix the shiatty e-mail client.

Windows 8 Mail leaves users pining for the desktop-or even their phones


I gotta say: People still use email clients on their PC? Really?

I've been getting my email via gmail for years now. I dropped Thunderbird about three or four years ago. It was just redundant. Most of my mail comes to my phone or iPad, but if I want it on my PC I can always log into gmail and grab it.

I just don't get the point of having Outlook or Thunderbird or any other mail client in Windows, anymore.
 
2012-10-25 09:54:31 PM
Surface is the new Zune. I give it two years before they discontinue it.
 
2012-10-25 10:24:18 PM

BullBearMS: Honest Bender: They specifically mentioned that it did the basic functions quite well but that it was lacking in "additional" functionality.

LOL. In the article about how the Windows RT email program makes people pine for their cell phone instead?


FTFA: For the basics of reading and replying to e-mail, displaying folders, moving messages between folders, sending and receiving attachments, and such, Metro Mail works well enough.

BullBearMS: I notice you completely leave out that part about Office and all desktop software on Surface completely lacking any sort of touch interface despite being billed as "no compromises". Why is that?


I "left that out" because we weren't talking about that. I'm sure I failed to cover a number of topics we weren't discussing.

We were talking about your opinion that there wasn't a satisfactory email application for Win 8. Do try and stay on topic. I think you'll find that, when you're failing to defend your point, I wont be easily diverted off topic.
 
2012-10-25 10:27:51 PM
Does anyone have any experience with Chromebooks? I considered ordering one of the new ones, but I figured I'd wait until more reviews rolled in.
 
2012-10-25 10:31:25 PM

Hand Banana: Surface is the new Zune. I give it two years before they discontinue it.


That's fine as long as it did it's job and forced OEM's to stop selling junk full of bloat
 
2012-10-25 10:33:55 PM

Swoop1809: Does anyone have any experience with Chromebooks? I considered ordering one of the new ones, but I figured I'd wait until more reviews rolled in.


If you like everything "in the cloud" it's for you
 
2012-10-25 10:36:49 PM

Swoop1809: Does anyone have any experience with Chromebooks? I considered ordering one of the new ones, but I figured I'd wait until more reviews rolled in.


From everything I've seen they are basically the worst aspects of Android tablets and laptops combined into one failtastic product. Get a Transformer with a laptop dock instead.
 
2012-10-25 10:43:43 PM

Honest Bender: FTFA: For the basics of reading and replying to e-mail, displaying folders, moving messages between folders, sending and receiving attachments, and such, Metro Mail works well enough.


That would be wonderful, in 1996.
 
2012-10-25 10:46:42 PM

BullBearMS: Honest Bender: FTFA: For the basics of reading and replying to e-mail, displaying folders, moving messages between folders, sending and receiving attachments, and such, Metro Mail works well enough.

That would be wonderful, in 1996.


You mean when MS first had tablets, not Apple?
 
2012-10-25 10:46:54 PM
The surface might be a useful replacement for the typical employee that doesn't need heavy processing. As much as I love my iPad, I've really only been able to use it to check in with work, rather than do anything particularly productive with it (part because I need heavier software and part because Angry Birds is a swipe away).

It the Surface has full versions of Excel, Word, and Powerpoint, full web support, and email, then it would seem to have a chance.
 
2012-10-25 11:12:29 PM

Swoop1809: Does anyone have any experience with Chromebooks? I considered ordering one of the new ones, but I figured I'd wait until more reviews rolled in.


Ehh for $250, how bad could it be?
 
2012-10-25 11:12:35 PM

theflatline: BullBearMS: Honest Bender: FTFA: For the basics of reading and replying to e-mail, displaying folders, moving messages between folders, sending and receiving attachments, and such, Metro Mail works well enough.

That would be wonderful, in 1996.

You mean when MS first had tablets, not Apple?


When Microsoft first failed at tablets, you mean?
 
2012-10-25 11:14:14 PM

ZeroCorpse: BullBearMS: mjbok: BullBearMS: Honest Bender: Who needs an email client?

Yes. That's exactly what the idiots at RIM said about the Playbook.

RT can be set up to contact an enterprise email server.

That does nothing to fix the shiatty e-mail client.

Windows 8 Mail leaves users pining for the desktop-or even their phones

I gotta say: People still use email clients on their PC? Really?

I've been getting my email via gmail for years now. I dropped Thunderbird about three or four years ago. It was just redundant. Most of my mail comes to my phone or iPad, but if I want it on my PC I can always log into gmail and grab it.

I just don't get the point of having Outlook or Thunderbird or any other mail client in Windows, anymore.


I have my own mail server because I don't want to give clients a gmail address (it's a peeve of mine). I have a webmail interface installed which I frequently use and I have it set up to go to my phone as well. My server sits in a data center, so I don't have to question my internt connection uptime @ home.

That being said, I still use Outlook on my desktop to retrieve mail because I kind of like the idea of not having all of my eggs in one basket. The same would be true if I had a gmail account. I wouldn't trust all of my business emails to someone elses server and not have a backup, hell I don't even trust my own server as a sole source. That just seems foolish.
 
2012-10-25 11:25:25 PM

theflatline: BullBearMS: Honest Bender: FTFA: For the basics of reading and replying to e-mail, displaying folders, moving messages between folders, sending and receiving attachments, and such, Metro Mail works well enough.

That would be wonderful, in 1996.

You mean when MS first had tablets, not Apple?


*cough* newton.

/sorry, not an apple fan but you have to give credit where it's due.
 
2012-10-25 11:33:01 PM

skazzytl: typing

skazzytl: Windows key + start typing is way faster for launching apps than clicking through a start menu


Windows 7 does that, too. If the program I'm looking for isn't already visible when I open the start menu, I just start typing.
 
2012-10-25 11:35:07 PM

sethen320: theflatline: BullBearMS: Honest Bender: FTFA: For the basics of reading and replying to e-mail, displaying folders, moving messages between folders, sending and receiving attachments, and such, Metro Mail works well enough.

That would be wonderful, in 1996.

You mean when MS first had tablets, not Apple?

*cough* newton.

/sorry, not an apple fan but you have to give credit where it's due.


The newton was a PDA, not a tablet.
 
2012-10-25 11:37:44 PM

theflatline: sethen320: theflatline: BullBearMS: Honest Bender: FTFA: For the basics of reading and replying to e-mail, displaying folders, moving messages between folders, sending and receiving attachments, and such, Metro Mail works well enough.

That would be wonderful, in 1996.

You mean when MS first had tablets, not Apple?

*cough* newton.

/sorry, not an apple fan but you have to give credit where it's due.

The newton was a PDA, not a tablet.


That was the biggest PDA I've ever seen (I have one in a box somewhere)!

Ok though, I'll give you that one. It wasn't good for much. No, I didn't buy it, I acquired it way after it was obsolete as a curiosity.
 
2012-10-25 11:38:48 PM

MisterTweak: I'm in a rather large IT shop and the general consensus is: Microsoft announces Windows Vista ME.

Not that it's actually horrible, but.. there's just nothing it does that appeals to me either as a user or a buyer. Timing couldn't be worse, remind customers they're on the hook for big ELA fees while they're deciding whether to push users to a 100% virtual solution launched from a very stripped and locked down local host.

I'll add some Apple hate, just because: I figured maybe I was an oddball for not finding the iphone 5 interesting or appealing, but Apple is on a roll here: The new ipad is.. the same exact thing, just slightly smaller. or bigger. And the new imac is supposedly thinner. Or something.

MS has a future, customers know exactly how much it will cost to switch to an alternative to exchange and mssql. Apple has a future selling to people who want exactly what they had last time. Grandparents.


Apple really pissed me off. I was days away from getting an iPad 3 regardless of their announcement but now I can get something better for the same price but possibly not before I actually have the opportunity to get it. My first thought was to simply get the iPad 3 for $100 less but it suddenly no longer exists!
 
2012-10-25 11:58:40 PM

Tobin_Lam: skazzytl: typingskazzytl: Windows key + start typing is way faster for launching apps than clicking through a start menu

Windows 7 does that, too. If the program I'm looking for isn't already visible when I open the start menu, I just start typing.


It's a lot faster on Windows 8 though. On my Windows 7 machine it does a search which sometimes can take up to a few seconds, but on Windows 8 it's instant.
 
2012-10-26 01:29:07 AM
Oh look, BullshiatBS is shilling for Apple. How unexpected.
 
2012-10-26 03:00:21 AM

theflatline: Endive Wombat: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Endive Wombat:
Finally, I think attempting to compare the Surface to the iPad is not 100% apples to apples. Based off what I have seen, I suspect that the Surface will have a lot more day to day business use than an iPad, largely due to the cover's touch pad and keyboard.

The Surface looks useful. The iPad, no matter what anyone says, is a giant iPod Touch.

I still to this day maintain that no REAL work can be performed on a tablet. The Surface is the only thing that may change my opinion on the matter.

At least you can get a fleshlight attachment for your iPad. I doubt Microsoft will be coming out with that accessory anytime soon...

Actually back in 2004 there was a company called HiJoy, that had USB pocket pussies, vibrating eggs, and dildos, that you could use while webcaming with someone, or watching precorded videos, Jenna Jameson was the spokeperson and you could even digitally bang her. The company I worked for sold them some videochatting software with api hooks for the controls.


Hahaha I did the audio for that lol 

/ well did the VO stuff
//kind of a big deal
 
2012-10-26 08:07:12 AM
I think Surface will fail, but mostly because of the keyboard issue. The ASUS Taichi and even the Lenovo Yoga has better designs on how to get around that particular issue.
 
2012-10-26 09:38:43 AM

BullBearMS: Honest Bender: They specifically mentioned that it did the basic functions quite well but that it was lacking in "additional" functionality.

LOL. In the article about how the Windows RT email program makes people pine for their cell phone instead?

I notice you completely leave out that part about Office and all desktop software on Surface completely lacking any sort of touch interface despite being billed as "no compromises". Why is that?


I notice you didn't quote the whole thing. Why is that?
 
2012-10-26 10:12:32 AM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: We'll just overlook the bigger issues: Microsoft, and Windows 8


The New York Times review of Windows 8 was.... unfavorable. It does sound like it sucks.
 
2012-10-26 10:28:32 AM

Orgasmatron138: MaudlinMutantMollusk: We'll just overlook the bigger issues: Microsoft, and Windows 8

The New York Times review of Windows 8 was.... unfavorable. It does sound like it sucks.


I've had some experience with it and you can get used to the changes pretty easily. For the most part, it is possible to treat it like Windows 7 with added features if you really want that experience.
 
2012-10-26 10:44:33 AM

pkellmey: Orgasmatron138: MaudlinMutantMollusk: We'll just overlook the bigger issues: Microsoft, and Windows 8

The New York Times review of Windows 8 was.... unfavorable. It does sound like it sucks.

I've had some experience with it and you can get used to the changes pretty easily. For the most part, it is possible to treat it like Windows 7 with added features if you really want that experience.


The review was so bad it felt like it was going overboard; not surprised there's another side to the story.

I really like Windows 7, and I have no use for the tablet-like interface or myriad of apps on the screen. I hate a cluttered desktop, so the only thing I have on my desktop is the recycle bin. I either set up hotkey commands or use the start menu to open programs. I'll probably stick with 7 for now.
 
2012-10-26 11:15:05 AM

Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: It takes about eight years for Microsoft to copy Apple's software, but I'm impressed that it only took three years to copy Apple's hardware.


Microsoft isn't even close to Apple's software group. On one hand, they have the best developer story in the world, hands-down. VS2012 and the .Net runtime are modern marvels, on par with other great engineering achievements like skyscrapers and supercars.

Ther OS group, on the other hand, is crippled by backwards compatibility because they sold computers to grandmas and huge businesses that are used to throwing their weight around. Unfortunately, those same businesses didn't just hire an enterprise OS group and work on the source code, instead they muscle Microsoft around by threatening to take their business elsewhere if anything changes. Grandmas freak out if anything takes a half-second to learn (look at every thread about Windows 8 for examples).

Because of this, they are straightjacketed and can't do stuff like event-driven, notification-based UI, or flexible screen layout, or insist everyone learn a bizarre computer programming language to program for their devices, or take away VBScript and replace it with something better, or add a new shell, or whatever. Apple went from growl notifications to notification center in one release, broke growl, said "screw you" and whistled while walking away.

Microsoft would never get away with something like that. That's just off the top of my head. Oh, how about reversing trackpad scroll direction and calling it "natural scrolling"? Or breaking compatibility with a whole world of hardware and software by going x86? MS can't even do that on a brand new tablet device without everyone freaking out. Meanwhile, not a single piece of MacOSX software runs on iPad and nobody has mentioned it once.

Apple has trained its developers to hate themselves and its users to be delighted by new shiat. They make whatever they want to, whenever they want to, and everybody deals with it. I almost feel sorry for Microsoft to have to put up with the complaining every time they do anything.
 
2012-10-26 12:47:26 PM

PsyLord: Doesn't come with iTunes is actually a selling feature for me, subby.

/hates that iTunes shiat


THIS.

Pro comes out in Jan, looking forward to it!
 
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