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(BusinessWeek)   Microsoft's Surface tablet will fail because it lacks important apps ... like iTunes   (businessweek.com ) divider line
    More: Fail, Microsoft Surface, Microsoft, iPads, killer app, open standard, music store, social networking service, iTunes  
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3786 clicks; posted to Geek » on 25 Oct 2012 at 3:16 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



169 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2012-10-25 01:53:41 PM  
And the Atom Z2760 is a total turd of a chip that is locked down to other OSes, so if you don't like Windows 8, to bad, no Linux for you. The Z2760 was designed for only one thing, to run Windows 8. Welcome to Microsoft's walled garden.
 
2012-10-25 02:25:53 PM  
We'll just overlook the bigger issues: Microsoft, and Windows 8
 
2012-10-25 02:37:42 PM  
My laptop was dying so I rushed to buy one with Windows 7 before 8 came out. I did not want to be stuck with that seeming nightmare....
 
2012-10-25 03:03:54 PM  

Brontes: And the Atom Z2760 is a total turd of a chip that is locked down to other OSes, so if you don't like Windows 8, to bad, no Linux for you. The Z2760 was designed for only one thing, to run Windows 8. Welcome to Microsoft's walled garden.


Except that the Surface runs Windows RT on Tegra 3, not Win8 on the x86 Atom. The Z2760 is still a turd, but it can run the full Win8, 3rd party apps like iTunes included.
 
2012-10-25 03:20:24 PM  
Doesn't come with iTunes currently, big deal isnt that what Windows Media player is for?

I am sure a Facebook app will come at some point, but isnt that what a web browser is for?

Honestly, I do not see the "need" for individual, compartmentalized apps. I much prefer to go through a web browser.

Also, Apple boasting that they have got 275,000 apps? How many are you really going to use? How many of those are in English? How many are actually useful to the average end user?

Finally, I think attempting to compare the Surface to the iPad is not 100% apples to apples. Based off what I have seen, I suspect that the Surface will have a lot more day to day business use than an iPad, largely due to the cover's touch pad and keyboard.
 
2012-10-25 03:23:14 PM  

Endive Wombat: Finally, I think attempting to compare the Surface to the iPad is not 100% apples to apples. Based off what I have seen, I suspect that the Surface will have a lot more day to day business use than an iPad, largely due to the cover's touch pad and keyboard.


Yeah. Though I'm still waiting to see how the Surface Pro will be. As someone who dabbles in digital art, a consistent platform that will run arbitrary x86-compatible apps and has a pen interface is a compelling idea.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-10-25 03:24:44 PM  
Actually the Surface doesn't use an Atom chip, it uses an Nvidia Tegra. I think it will be a flop. It look OK, but the iPad has too much of a head start.

The Atom based tablets should take the high end of the market from Apple with no problem. Who (other than a iFanBoi ) would want a toy instead of an actual computer?
 
2012-10-25 03:28:25 PM  
Which of these do I need to unblock to show this page?

Audience Science
ChartBeat
Disqus
DoubleClick
Dynamic Logic
Facebook Connect
Google Adsense
Google Analytics
Newstogram
Quantcast
ScoreCard Research Beacon
Taboola

I think I'll just close the tab.
 
2012-10-25 03:29:47 PM  

Endive Wombat: Doesn't come with iTunes currently, big deal isnt that what Windows Media player is for?

I am sure a Facebook app will come at some point, but isnt that what a web browser is for?

Honestly, I do not see the "need" for individual, compartmentalized apps. I much prefer to go through a web browser.

Also, Apple boasting that they have got 275,000 apps? How many are you really going to use? How many of those are in English? How many are actually useful to the average end user?

Finally, I think attempting to compare the Surface to the iPad is not 100% apples to apples. Based off what I have seen, I suspect that the Surface will have a lot more day to day business use than an iPad, largely due to the cover's touch pad and keyboard.


Media Player has been totally gimped. It can't even play a DVD anymore.
 
2012-10-25 03:30:22 PM  

Endive Wombat: Doesn't come with iTunes currently, big deal isnt that what Windows Media player is for?

I am sure a Facebook app will come at some point, but isnt that what a web browser is for?

Honestly, I do not see the "need" for individual, compartmentalized apps. I much prefer to go through a web browser.

Also, Apple boasting that they have got 275,000 apps? How many are you really going to use? How many of those are in English? How many are actually useful to the average end user?

Finally, I think attempting to compare the Surface to the iPad is not 100% apples to apples. Based off what I have seen, I suspect that the Surface will have a lot more day to day business use than an iPad, largely due to the cover's touch pad and keyboard.


I'm tempted to say it's like comparing apples to lemons

/but I'm a compulsive smartass
 
2012-10-25 03:31:27 PM  

Endive Wombat:
Finally, I think attempting to compare the Surface to the iPad is not 100% apples to apples. Based off what I have seen, I suspect that the Surface will have a lot more day to day business use than an iPad, largely due to the cover's touch pad and keyboard.


The Surface looks useful. The iPad, no matter what anyone says, is a giant iPod Touch.
 
2012-10-25 03:32:50 PM  

Endive Wombat: Doesn't come with iTunes currently, big deal isnt that what Windows Media player is for?

I am sure a Facebook app will come at some point, but isnt that what a web browser is for?

Honestly, I do not see the "need" for individual, compartmentalized apps. I much prefer to go through a web browser.

Also, Apple boasting that they have got 275,000 apps? How many are you really going to use? How many of those are in English? How many are actually useful to the average end user?

Finally, I think attempting to compare the Surface to the iPad is not 100% apples to apples. Based off what I have seen, I suspect that the Surface will have a lot more day to day business use than an iPad, largely due to the cover's touch pad and keyboard.


Windows RT does not come with Windows Media Player and you can't join a domain. Difficult for entertainment and business. I'm sure I'm missing something, but for a Windows home or environment, those seem like pretty big oversights.
 
2012-10-25 03:33:23 PM  

Dragonflew: Which of these do I need to unblock to show this page?

Audience Science
ChartBeat
Disqus
DoubleClick
Dynamic Logic
Facebook Connect
Google Adsense
Google Analytics
Newstogram
Quantcast
ScoreCard Research Beacon
Taboola

I think I'll just close the tab.


I'm still looking at a blank screen.
(After I closed the "Would you be willing to take a survey?" pop-up)
 
F42
2012-10-25 03:34:37 PM  
Microsoft's vaporware tablet will fail because you cannot hold vapor in your hands.
 
2012-10-25 03:37:07 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: The iPad, no matter what anyone says, is a giant iPod Touch.


Just as a point: I've written software on the iPad. Not for the iPad. On it. It's certainly not my preferred environment, but it's entirely workable, especially with an external keyboard. Koder is actually one of the better programmer's text editors that I've used on any platform.

On a related note, Visual Studio is absolutely terrible on the Surface. It's all about optimizing for the screen realestate, and VS2012 is an absolute hog. I'm usually running three monitors at the office, and I absolutely refuse to do programming on just the dinky laptop screen.

Also, I've been very disappointed in Win8's touchscreen features. It's really wonky to use, and really- that tile-based app launcher is awful. I'm still not sure how I'm supposed to add widgets to it, not that I've spent much time thinking about it.
 
2012-10-25 03:38:20 PM  

vpb: Actually the Surface doesn't use an Atom chip, it uses an Nvidia Tegra. I think it will be a flop. It look OK, but the iPad has too much of a head start.


You're creating a false dichotomy where you either must sell more than the iPad, or you're a flop.

The tablet market is not even remotely close to saturation. There's lots of room to grow. Now, if the Surface was an iPad clone, then yeah, at this price point I'd say it has an uphill battle. But given the product differentiation, it should appeal to some who'd never consider an iPad. Again, the iPad has been a major disappointment from a business user perspective. A few of my co-workers ran out and bought them, allegedly for work. They carry them to meetings, d*ck around with them a bit, etc. but I shart you not, within 8 weeks they were all leaving their iPads at home. The things weren't even viable for simple note taking.
 
2012-10-25 03:38:53 PM  
*CTRL-F* / "Android" / *ENTER*..... 0/0

Biased article much?
 
2012-10-25 03:40:31 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Endive Wombat:
Finally, I think attempting to compare the Surface to the iPad is not 100% apples to apples. Based off what I have seen, I suspect that the Surface will have a lot more day to day business use than an iPad, largely due to the cover's touch pad and keyboard.

The Surface looks useful. The iPad, no matter what anyone says, is a giant iPod Touch.


I still to this day maintain that no REAL work can be performed on a tablet. The Surface is the only thing that may change my opinion on the matter.

At least you can get a fleshlight attachment for your iPad. I doubt Microsoft will be coming out with that accessory anytime soon...
 
2012-10-25 03:41:23 PM  

t3knomanser: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: The iPad, no matter what anyone says, is a giant iPod Touch.

Just as a point: I've written software on the iPad. Not for the iPad. On it. It's certainly not my preferred environment, but it's entirely workable, especially with an external keyboard. Koder is actually one of the better programmer's text editors that I've used on any platform.

On a related note, Visual Studio is absolutely terrible on the Surface. It's all about optimizing for the screen realestate, and VS2012 is an absolute hog. I'm usually running three monitors at the office, and I absolutely refuse to do programming on just the dinky laptop screen.

Also, I've been very disappointed in Win8's touchscreen features. It's really wonky to use, and really- that tile-based app launcher is awful. I'm still not sure how I'm supposed to add widgets to it, not that I've spent much time thinking about it.


I'm shocked that anyone would want to code on either device. I am super-shocked that Visual Studio is even available for the Surface RT. I'm all for tablets having practical work use, but coding just seems to be asking a lot.
 
2012-10-25 03:43:29 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: vpb: Actually the Surface doesn't use an Atom chip, it uses an Nvidia Tegra. I think it will be a flop. It look OK, but the iPad has too much of a head start.

You're creating a false dichotomy where you either must sell more than the iPad, or you're a flop.

The tablet market is not even remotely close to saturation. There's lots of room to grow. Now, if the Surface was an iPad clone, then yeah, at this price point I'd say it has an uphill battle. But given the product differentiation, it should appeal to some who'd never consider an iPad. Again, the iPad has been a major disappointment from a business user perspective. A few of my co-workers ran out and bought them, allegedly for work. They carry them to meetings, d*ck around with them a bit, etc. but I shart you not, within 8 weeks they were all leaving their iPads at home. The things weren't even viable for simple note taking.


Yup. Coming from a previously heavy VMware based employer/reseller/integrator...yeah, whooooo...you can run Windows 7 on your iPad with no issues. Big farking whoop. Again, what REAL work will you get accomplished with it? Wanna build a PowerPoint or draft a lengthy document, good luck. Sure, it can be done, but with a lot of effort.
 
2012-10-25 03:46:30 PM  

t3knomanser: Also, I've been very disappointed in Win8's touchscreen features. It's really wonky to use, and really- that tile-based app launcher is awful. I'm still not sure how I'm supposed to add widgets to it, not that I've spent much time thinking about it.


Metro is lame, but I've been using Win8/Server 2012 since it went RTM and the truth is that I might see the Metro screen once a day. MAYBE. WinRT doesn't have that option and I believe it's going to fail anyway, but there's nothing stopping you from pinning programs to your taskbar or adding shortcuts to the desktop on x86 Win8.
 
2012-10-25 03:47:27 PM  

Endive Wombat: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Endive Wombat:
Finally, I think attempting to compare the Surface to the iPad is not 100% apples to apples. Based off what I have seen, I suspect that the Surface will have a lot more day to day business use than an iPad, largely due to the cover's touch pad and keyboard.

The Surface looks useful. The iPad, no matter what anyone says, is a giant iPod Touch.

I still to this day maintain that no REAL work can be performed on a tablet. The Surface is the only thing that may change my opinion on the matter.

At least you can get a fleshlight attachment for your iPad. I doubt Microsoft will be coming out with that accessory anytime soon...


Actually back in 2004 there was a company called HiJoy, that had USB pocket pussies, vibrating eggs, and dildos, that you could use while webcaming with someone, or watching precorded videos, Jenna Jameson was the spokeperson and you could even digitally bang her. The company I worked for sold them some videochatting software with api hooks for the controls.
 
2012-10-25 03:47:35 PM  
While I think Windows 8 will be a huge flop, I think the Surface Tablet will be good so long as it's price competitive and there are apps for it. It may take awhile but there's room for another player in the space.
 
2012-10-25 03:47:42 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: I am super-shocked that Visual Studio is even available for the Surface RT.


Sorry, no- not the RT. This was the traditional Intel surface. I have a hard time understanding either device, though.

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: I'm shocked that anyone would want to code on either device.


I didn't explicitly want to, but it was there and it worked okay.
 
2012-10-25 03:48:11 PM  
My boss is betting that within a year we will all be using Surface devices and will slowly be phasing out our desktops and laptops.

As the IT Manager for the place I'm stocking up on Pepto and bourbon.
 
2012-10-25 03:50:26 PM  
Doesn't come with iTunes is actually a selling feature for me, subby.

/hates that iTunes shiat
 
2012-10-25 03:51:38 PM  

t3knomanser: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: The iPad, no matter what anyone says, is a giant iPod Touch.

Just as a point: I've written software on the iPad. Not for the iPad. On it. It's certainly not my preferred environment, but it's entirely workable, especially with an external keyboard. Koder is actually one of the better programmer's text editors that I've used on any platform.

On a related note, Visual Studio is absolutely terrible on the Surface. It's all about optimizing for the screen realestate, and VS2012 is an absolute hog. I'm usually running three monitors at the office, and I absolutely refuse to do programming on just the dinky laptop screen.

Also, I've been very disappointed in Win8's touchscreen features. It's really wonky to use, and really- that tile-based app launcher is awful. I'm still not sure how I'm supposed to add widgets to it, not that I've spent much time thinking about it.


So what you you really should have said is while you can code on both, you prefer to code on traditional equipment. Because the IPAD would also qualify as a dinky laptop screen.

And there is a difference between a text editor and a full blown IDE, which you have access to in need of an emergency fix.

Plus with HDMI out on the Surface you have HDMI out so you could literally plug a monitor in. And of course you can always use an external keyboard.

So advantage Surface.
 
2012-10-25 03:52:32 PM  
Whatever would a device do without that big bloated memory hog storefront ..... err .... "media content manager"?
 
2012-10-25 03:53:39 PM  

Endive Wombat: Also, Apple boasting that they have got 275,000 apps? How many are you really going to use? How many of those are in English? How many are actually useful to the average end user?


This, sorta. Any sort of mobile platform or tablet these days should automatically come with the following:

- a web browser
- email
- Facebook
- a decent ereader (ie not locked to a single format/provider/etc)
- a decent music player (see the ereader bit)
- a decent word processor at least on a par with WordPad
- a decent map app
- a camera
- an image manipulator/photo app

People are going to want those things. Other things, like news apps, youtube, stocks, etc should be available, but not everyone will want those pre-loaded. Everyone will want the above, and if you don't have them ready to go, no one is going to buy your shiatty overpriced piece of hardware. Putting something out that I can't even use the way I want says 'I care about rushing to grab a few leaves off of Apple's money tree more than I care about making a useable product', and people know it.
 
2012-10-25 03:55:38 PM  

whistleridge: Endive Wombat: Also, Apple boasting that they have got 275,000 apps? How many are you really going to use? How many of those are in English? How many are actually useful to the average end user?

This, sorta. Any sort of mobile platform or tablet these days should automatically come with the following:

- a web browser
- email
- Facebook
- a decent ereader (ie not locked to a single format/provider/etc)
- a decent music player (see the ereader bit)
- a decent word processor at least on a par with WordPad
- a decent map app
- a camera
- an image manipulator/photo app

People are going to want those things. Other things, like news apps, youtube, stocks, etc should be available, but not everyone will want those pre-loaded. Everyone will want the above, and if you don't have them ready to go, no one is going to buy your shiatty overpriced piece of hardware. Putting something out that I can't even use the way I want says 'I care about rushing to grab a few leaves off of Apple's money tree more than I care about making a useable product', and people know it.


Also, a way to watch videos.

Companies don't need 275,000 apps, because most people probably won't regularly use more than 20 or 30 of them. But they DO need 40 - 50 rock-solid ones, with new ones (games, etc) continually in the pipeline.
 
2012-10-25 03:56:00 PM  

Endive Wombat: Honestly, I do not see the "need" for individual, compartmentalized apps. I much prefer to go through a web browser.


The problem with a "web browser" is performance blows. Which is why facebook rewrote their app. Plus a cellular or wifi connection isn't always available.
 
2012-10-25 03:56:34 PM  

whistleridge: Endive Wombat: Also, Apple boasting that they have got 275,000 apps? How many are you really going to use? How many of those are in English? How many are actually useful to the average end user?

This, sorta. Any sort of mobile platform or tablet these days should automatically come with the following:

- a web browser
- email
- Facebook
- a decent ereader (ie not locked to a single format/provider/etc)
- a decent music player (see the ereader bit)
- a decent word processor at least on a par with WordPad
- a decent map app
- a camera
- an image manipulator/photo app

People are going to want those things. Other things, like news apps, youtube, stocks, etc should be available, but not everyone will want those pre-loaded. Everyone will want the above, and if you don't have them ready to go, no one is going to buy your shiatty overpriced piece of hardware. Putting something out that I can't even use the way I want says 'I care about rushing to grab a few leaves off of Apple's money tree more than I care about making a useable product', and people know it.


Oh yeah. That really screwed over Apple... Remember the wait for the iPad version of Facebook? Nobody, and I mean nobody bought an iPad until that app came out.
 
2012-10-25 03:57:50 PM  

theflatline: And there is a difference between a text editor and a full blown IDE, which you have access to in need of an emergency fix.

Plus with HDMI out on the Surface you have HDMI out so you could literally plug a monitor in. And of course you can always use an external keyboard.

So advantage Surface.


How is it "advantage Surface" when you can do all those things with the iPad?
 
2012-10-25 03:57:58 PM  

madgonad: Media Player has been totally gimped. It can't even play a DVD anymore.


I'd think that the lack of a DVD drive on the Surface would get in the way of playing a DVD even more.
 
2012-10-25 03:59:44 PM  

madgonad: Endive Wombat: Doesn't come with iTunes currently, big deal isnt that what Windows Media player is for?

I am sure a Facebook app will come at some point, but isnt that what a web browser is for?

Honestly, I do not see the "need" for individual, compartmentalized apps. I much prefer to go through a web browser.

Also, Apple boasting that they have got 275,000 apps? How many are you really going to use? How many of those are in English? How many are actually useful to the average end user?

Finally, I think attempting to compare the Surface to the iPad is not 100% apples to apples. Based off what I have seen, I suspect that the Surface will have a lot more day to day business use than an iPad, largely due to the cover's touch pad and keyboard.

Media Player has been totally gimped. It can't even play a DVD anymore.


What's a DVD?
 
2012-10-25 04:02:49 PM  

gingerjet: theflatline: And there is a difference between a text editor and a full blown IDE, which you have access to in need of an emergency fix.

Plus with HDMI out on the Surface you have HDMI out so you could literally plug a monitor in. And of course you can always use an external keyboard.

So advantage Surface.

How is it "advantage Surface" when you can do all those things with the iPad?


Not out of the box, you can't.
 
2012-10-25 04:07:00 PM  
eh, it'll probably fail because you've got an RT model tablet and a more expensive 8 tablet that nobody's going buy and won't get support anyways if windows 8 doesn't take off like crazy (which it probably won't), market confusion ensues in a space Microsoft will probably have a tough time carving out by going the expensive workstation tablet route
 
2012-10-25 04:07:47 PM  
pretty sure they are working on a Facebook app as we speak since they are buddy buddy. Pretty sure iTunes will come also because Microsoft do make apps for iOS.
/Whomever wrote that is stupid
 
2012-10-25 04:07:53 PM  

gingerjet: theflatline: And there is a difference between a text editor and a full blown IDE, which you have access to in need of an emergency fix.

Plus with HDMI out on the Surface you have HDMI out so you could literally plug a monitor in. And of course you can always use an external keyboard.

So advantage Surface.

How is it "advantage Surface" when you can do all those things with the iPad?


1. You do not need an HDMI out adapter for the Surface. You do for the IPAD. Advantage Surface.

2. The Intel Surface lets you run a flow blown IDE, What was mentioned for the Ipad was a Text Editor. Avantage Surface.

So while it could be said neither was ideal for coding, the Surface has no need for an adapter, and can run full fledged IDEs.

Not to mention the USB ports for external storage....

So if pushed came to shove you could actually get real work done on a surface, and compile on it...

Spin much?
 
2012-10-25 04:09:52 PM  

Brontes: And the Atom Z2760 is a total turd of a chip that is locked down to other OSes, so if you don't like Windows 8, to bad, no Linux for you. The Z2760 was designed for only one thing, to run Windows 8. Welcome to Microsoft's walled garden.


Aside from the fact that it actually uses a Tegra 3, how is that any different than almost every Android phone and tablet on the market that has a locked Bootloader?
 
2012-10-25 04:10:46 PM  

Endive Wombat: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Endive Wombat:
...At least you can get a fleshlight attachment for your iPad. I doubt Microsoft will be coming out with that accessory anytime soon...


I dare say that if either an iPad or a Surface came with a fleshlight, I may be persuaded to purchase one.
 
2012-10-25 04:12:34 PM  
I don't know much about the Surface, but I have to ask...
Since it's running Win 8, will it be "computer/laptop-like" than the iPad? Would it be worth trading out my iPad for it?
 
2012-10-25 04:12:43 PM  

serpent_sky: My laptop was dying so I rushed to buy one with Windows 7 before 8 came out. I did not want to be stuck with that seeming nightmare....


Same here... got an HP Envy, and love it so far.

Oh, and I don't have iTunes, I use a back version of Winamp for music files.

I'm a happy man.
 
2012-10-25 04:15:22 PM  
If I can use it as a Media Extender for WMC, that'd be the tits. Using it, I can lay in bed and watch live or recorded TV and stream stuff from my server at the house. It would be a lot less power-hungry and easier to setup than getting a new TV and putting my old 360 in the bedroom to act as a Media Extender.
 
2012-10-25 04:15:52 PM  
I definitely think it's a step in a direction I like, but I'll pass for now. I do hope the market moves further into blending the lines between tablet and laptop, where basically the laptop is just a tablet that you've connected a keyboard to, and a tablet is just a full blown computer that is only a touch screen.
 
2012-10-25 04:18:02 PM  
I started using Windows 8 this week and was expecting lots of pain and suffering from all the stuff I've read, but I think it's actually quite nice. Windows key + start typing is way faster for launching apps than clicking through a start menu, and I've organized my Metro tiles in a way I like. I even found a useful traffic app in the app store today that promises to give me accurate estimates on how long my commute will take.
 
2012-10-25 04:20:19 PM  

serpent_sky: My laptop was dying so I rushed to buy one with Windows 7 before 8 came out. I did not want to be stuck with that seeming nightmare....


TXEric: Same here... got an HP Envy, and love it so far.

Oh, and I don't have iTunes, I use a back version of Winamp for music files.

I'm a happy man.


No options? Time to join the Linux fan-boy zombie hoard!

you can ease into it. Here is a link to the Ubuntu Windows installer. This will let you dual boot your machine to Ubuntu Linux very easily, no advanced configurations required.

The only thing I would recommend out of the default is recommend switching the default Ubuntu install to Kubuntu. This just changes the desktop environment from Unity to KDE, which I think most people prefer. Unity is flashy and shiny, but is a little confusing.
 
2012-10-25 04:24:15 PM  

Mad_Radhu: Brontes: And the Atom Z2760 is a total turd of a chip that is locked down to other OSes, so if you don't like Windows 8, to bad, no Linux for you. The Z2760 was designed for only one thing, to run Windows 8. Welcome to Microsoft's walled garden.

Aside from the fact that it actually uses a Tegra 3, how is that any different than almost every Android phone and tablet on the market that has a locked Bootloader?


sakanagai: Brontes: And the Atom Z2760 is a total turd of a chip that is locked down to other OSes, so if you don't like Windows 8, to bad, no Linux for you. The Z2760 was designed for only one thing, to run Windows 8. Welcome to Microsoft's walled garden.

Except that the Surface runs Windows RT on Tegra 3, not Win8 on the x86 Atom. The Z2760 is still a turd, but it can run the full Win8, 3rd party apps like iTunes included.


Ok, ok, busted, I didn't RTFA to see they were talking about the ARM, but we'll see how well MS Tablets run Window 8 with 2GB of memory and anything else. Expect a lot of swapping to disk and sluggish performance if more than a handful of tasks are running.
 
2012-10-25 04:24:53 PM  
I think it will be a huge success, like the Kin phone or the Zune.
 
2012-10-25 04:26:40 PM  
Subbys snark isn't far from the truth, I think.

Consoles are sold by the media that's available on them.
If I was Microsoft, I'd seriously be looking for any loophole that lets me sneak into other developers stores.

Not that Apple would allow that to happen easily. But if Microsoft is trying to take over that base, they'd be asking these people to ditch hundreds of dollars in product just to save a buck on a new tablet.

/You'd have to make one kick ass tablet for that to happen.
/by definition, tablets don't kick much ass when it comes to processing power.
 
2012-10-25 04:27:21 PM  

serpent_sky: My laptop was dying so I rushed to buy one with Windows 7 before 8 came out. I did not want to be stuck with that seeming nightmare....


Anyone that knows what they are doing is not going to have a problem with windows 8, it is just the technophobes and people that had difficultly with a "normal" Windows upgrade that will be in trouble I think.
 
2012-10-25 04:33:59 PM  
I've seen the evolution of windows 8 starting from the developer preview and now all the way to the RTM version. It's changed so much and for the better. I gave up on it many times before in other previews but a week back installed the RTM and was very surprised how good its been running on a VM none the less. It sure as heck will work better on a tablet.

I'll probably wait for the Pro version.

I think the biggest issue is people being able to tell the difference between RT vs Pro at the moment.
 
2012-10-25 04:39:33 PM  
Ya know, I'm halfway tempted to buy a Surface just to see how bad it could be.
 
2012-10-25 04:40:21 PM  

roflmaonow:
I think the biggest issue is people being able to tell the difference between RT vs Pro at the moment.


This.

The confusion between RT and Windows 8 will probably bite Microsoft in the ass.

/I'll pass on both surface tablets for now... Too many other/better options IMO.
 
2012-10-25 04:42:30 PM  
It also lacks important apps like a decent e-mail client. It's the 2012 version of the Blackberry Playbook.
 
2012-10-25 04:51:12 PM  

BullBearMS: It also lacks important apps like a decent e-mail client. It's the 2012 version of the Blackberry Playbook.


... it has one built in.
 
2012-10-25 04:55:03 PM  

meanmutton: madgonad: Endive Wombat: Doesn't come with iTunes currently, big deal isnt that what Windows Media player is for?

I am sure a Facebook app will come at some point, but isnt that what a web browser is for?

Honestly, I do not see the "need" for individual, compartmentalized apps. I much prefer to go through a web browser.

Also, Apple boasting that they have got 275,000 apps? How many are you really going to use? How many of those are in English? How many are actually useful to the average end user?

Finally, I think attempting to compare the Surface to the iPad is not 100% apples to apples. Based off what I have seen, I suspect that the Surface will have a lot more day to day business use than an iPad, largely due to the cover's touch pad and keyboard.

Media Player has been totally gimped. It can't even play a DVD anymore.

What's a DVD?


Okay, I'll translate for you. It can't play mpeg or mpeg2 content at all. Not sure about containers, but MS has had a history of being incompatible with them.
 
2012-10-25 04:55:46 PM  

PsyLord: Doesn't come with iTunes is actually a selling feature for me, subby.

/hates that iTunes shiat


Ditto.

Can't wait to get WP8 and Surface Pro. Then bye-bye Apple bloatware.
 
2012-10-25 04:56:11 PM  

Endive Wombat: I still to this day maintain that no REAL work can be performed on a tablet.


It depends on what you mean by "real" work. Using Photoshop on an ASUS EP121 is quite nice, apparently.

Marine1: BullBearMS: It also lacks important apps like a decent e-mail client. It's the 2012 version of the Blackberry Playbook.

... it has one built in.


Doesn't matter what you say, the argument people are making is that it's "not Outlook".

This is, of course, from the same people who complain about Outlook as an email client.

/for "real work" the Surface Pro is targeted to that market
//the Surface itself is for less technical, less corporate folks
 
2012-10-25 04:56:26 PM  

BullBearMS: It also lacks important apps like a decent e-mail client.


You mean other than Outlook?
 
2012-10-25 04:57:28 PM  

Endive Wombat: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Endive Wombat:
Finally, I think attempting to compare the Surface to the iPad is not 100% apples to apples. Based off what I have seen, I suspect that the Surface will have a lot more day to day business use than an iPad, largely due to the cover's touch pad and keyboard.

The Surface looks useful. The iPad, no matter what anyone says, is a giant iPod Touch.

I still to this day maintain that no REAL work can be performed on a tablet. The Surface is the only thing that may change my opinion on the matter.


I'm an English professor, and I think a Nexus 7 would be very useful for work. With OTG, I could plug in a mouse/keyboard and word process, quickly respond to emails, and read/post articles for the class to read. And it's portable with ten hour battery life.
 
2012-10-25 04:58:40 PM  

madgonad: Endive Wombat: Doesn't come with iTunes currently, big deal isnt that what Windows Media player is for?

I am sure a Facebook app will come at some point, but isnt that what a web browser is for?

Honestly, I do not see the "need" for individual, compartmentalized apps. I much prefer to go through a web browser.

Also, Apple boasting that they have got 275,000 apps? How many are you really going to use? How many of those are in English? How many are actually useful to the average end user?

Finally, I think attempting to compare the Surface to the iPad is not 100% apples to apples. Based off what I have seen, I suspect that the Surface will have a lot more day to day business use than an iPad, largely due to the cover's touch pad and keyboard.

Media Player has been totally gimped. It can't even play a DVD anymore.


Install the K-Lite codec pack from www.codecguide.com. HUZZAH! Plays DVDs.
 
2012-10-25 04:59:11 PM  

madgonad: meanmutton: madgonad: Endive Wombat: Doesn't come with iTunes currently, big deal isnt that what Windows Media player is for?

I am sure a Facebook app will come at some point, but isnt that what a web browser is for?

Honestly, I do not see the "need" for individual, compartmentalized apps. I much prefer to go through a web browser.

Also, Apple boasting that they have got 275,000 apps? How many are you really going to use? How many of those are in English? How many are actually useful to the average end user?

Finally, I think attempting to compare the Surface to the iPad is not 100% apples to apples. Based off what I have seen, I suspect that the Surface will have a lot more day to day business use than an iPad, largely due to the cover's touch pad and keyboard.

Media Player has been totally gimped. It can't even play a DVD anymore.

What's a DVD?

Okay, I'll translate for you. It can't play mpeg or mpeg2 content at all. Not sure about containers, but MS has had a history of being incompatible with them.


Mine plays DVDs in win 7 & I am sure video LAN will be on it shortly
 
2012-10-25 04:59:50 PM  

theflatline: Because the IPAD would also qualify as a dinky laptop screen.


No, because the application I was using on the iPad was not a complete screen-hog. It's about optimizing the usage of screen realestate. There could be a version of Visual Studio optimized to work on tablets. There won't be, because Microsoft has a hard enough time optimizing Visual Studio to work on regular computers, but they could. It's the software, not the hardware, in that case.

Further, I'm sure there will be decent code editors/IDEs for the Surface in the future, but right now- not so much.

theflatline: Plus with HDMI out on the Surface you have HDMI out so you could literally plug a monitor in.


At that point, why am I even using a tablet anymore? This is what perplexes me about the Surface- the RT is as close to useless as it can possibly get, and the full Surface is as close to a laptop as it can get- except my brief handlings of it just made me wish I was using a laptop.

theflatline: Spin much?


Hey, you've convinced me. I'm going to go buy a laptop.
 
2012-10-25 05:00:13 PM  

madgonad: meanmutton: madgonad: Endive Wombat: Doesn't come with iTunes currently, big deal isnt that what Windows Media player is for?

I am sure a Facebook app will come at some point, but isnt that what a web browser is for?

Honestly, I do not see the "need" for individual, compartmentalized apps. I much prefer to go through a web browser.

Also, Apple boasting that they have got 275,000 apps? How many are you really going to use? How many of those are in English? How many are actually useful to the average end user?

Finally, I think attempting to compare the Surface to the iPad is not 100% apples to apples. Based off what I have seen, I suspect that the Surface will have a lot more day to day business use than an iPad, largely due to the cover's touch pad and keyboard.

Media Player has been totally gimped. It can't even play a DVD anymore.

What's a DVD?

Okay, I'll translate for you. It can't play mpeg or mpeg2 content at all. Not sure about containers, but MS has had a history of being incompatible with them.


It can play MPEG2 content just fine, that is not the issue. It is the CSS decryption codecs for DRM encrypted DVDs that is no longer included with Windows (because they have to pay to license it). There are plenty of free players that include them though so it's really not a big deal.
 
2012-10-25 05:00:19 PM  

Marine1: Oh yeah. That really screwed over Apple... Remember the wait for the iPad version of Facebook? Nobody, and I mean nobody bought an iPad until that app came out.


Be sarcastic all you want, but you know I'm right: no one app is make-or-break, but that general suite is all that probably 80% of tablet users ever open, plus or minus a few news/sports/games apps. No, no one held back on the iPad because it only had FB for iPhone at the time, but if it still didn't have it that would be an issue.

Also...Apple is a special case, because of the fanboy effect. If, say, GE came out with a tablet tomorrow, they would be held to a much stricter standard. And absence of FB might very well doom in right there.
 
2012-10-25 05:00:26 PM  

Rambino: You mean other than Outlook?


Outlook doesn't run on the RT, last I checked. The default Mail application is utter shiate.
 
2012-10-25 05:10:21 PM  

t3knomanser: Rambino: You mean other than Outlook?

Outlook doesn't run on the RT, last I checked. The default Mail application is utter shiate.


Outlook 2013 will
 
2012-10-25 05:22:57 PM  

madgonad: Endive Wombat: Doesn't come with iTunes currently, big deal isnt that what Windows Media player is for?

I am sure a Facebook app will come at some point, but isnt that what a web browser is for?

Honestly, I do not see the "need" for individual, compartmentalized apps. I much prefer to go through a web browser.

Also, Apple boasting that they have got 275,000 apps? How many are you really going to use? How many of those are in English? How many are actually useful to the average end user?

Finally, I think attempting to compare the Surface to the iPad is not 100% apples to apples. Based off what I have seen, I suspect that the Surface will have a lot more day to day business use than an iPad, largely due to the cover's touch pad and keyboard.

Media Player has been totally gimped. It can't even play a DVD anymore.


Um...it will be on a tablet. Those have DVD drives?
 
2012-10-25 05:23:51 PM  

Gunny Walker: Outlook 2013 will


That's at least an improvement. My favorite part of the Mail application is when you decide, "No, I don't actually feel like setting up an account right now," and hit cancel, it doesn't cancel- it complains that you haven't finished setting up your account.
 
2012-10-25 05:28:21 PM  
It's a real bummer it don't(RT) have a itunes app, because how else am I going to factory reset someones iProuct for extra beer money
 
2012-10-25 05:28:51 PM  

gingerjet: Endive Wombat: Honestly, I do not see the "need" for individual, compartmentalized apps. I much prefer to go through a web browser.

The problem with a "web browser" is performance blows. Which is why facebook rewrote their app. Plus a cellular or wifi connection isn't always available.


How does having a facebook app help if you have no connection to the tubes?
 
2012-10-25 05:34:57 PM  
I think Windows 8 is a complete disaster as a computer OS, but the Surface and other devices like it look great. I don't think they'll ever reach iPad-level success, though.
 
2012-10-25 05:37:22 PM  

serpent_sky: My laptop was dying so I rushed to buy one with Windows 7 before 8 came out. I did not want to be stuck with that seeming nightmare....


LOL. Oh man...
Do you know how easy it is to pirate whatever version of whatever OS you want? Just buy whatever hardware you like and pair it with whatever software you like. If your new laptop comes with Windows 8, give it a try. You might just like it.

Or, get a huge stick up your ass over an OS you haven't used yet and let that motivate your purchasing decisions. Because taking an afternoon to educate yourself on how to install an OS is HARD!

/Who am I to complain? Willful ignorance like yours puts money in my pocket every payday.
 
2012-10-25 05:39:48 PM  

FuturePastNow: I think Windows 8 is a complete disaster as a computer OS, but the Surface and other devices like it look great. I don't think they'll ever reach iPad-level success, though.


I've been running it on my daily driver since the RTM launch and have no complaints... After I got past the "ZOMG no Start Menu?!?!" stage it's been smooth sailing.
 
2012-10-25 05:42:03 PM  

Honest Bender: serpent_sky: My laptop was dying so I rushed to buy one with Windows 7 before 8 came out. I did not want to be stuck with that seeming nightmare....

LOL. Oh man...
Do you know how easy it is to pirate whatever version of whatever OS you want? Just buy whatever hardware you like and pair it with whatever software you like. If your new laptop comes with Windows 8, give it a try. You might just like it.

Or, get a huge stick up your ass over an OS you haven't used yet and let that motivate your purchasing decisions. Because taking an afternoon to educate yourself on how to install an OS is HARD!

/Who am I to complain? Willful ignorance like yours puts money in my pocket every payday.


Dude, you just said the "p" word. Get ready for a lot of people to start judging your character and call you everyhthing short of terrorist.

Fark is full of people who have NEVER broken a law, copied a song, or even considered committing piracy.

You scoundrel.
 
2012-10-25 05:48:37 PM  
It is doomed to fail. The thing has a USB and SD port. People want USB and SD. Apple has proven you can't succeed by giving consumers what they want. You have to force them to make do with what you are offering. See? Doom.
 
2012-10-25 05:52:04 PM  

roflmaonow: I've seen the evolution of windows 8 starting from the developer preview and now all the way to the RTM version. It's changed so much and for the better. I gave up on it many times before in other previews but a week back installed the RTM and was very surprised how good its been running on a VM none the less. It sure as heck will work better on a tablet.

I'll probably wait for the Pro version.

I think the biggest issue is people being able to tell the difference between RT vs Pro at the moment.


People got over x86 vs 64 bit quickly. if Microsoft will have to train store employees to let people know ahead of time.
/I think they should only sell RT tabs at Microsoft stores to avoid confusion
 
2012-10-25 05:52:18 PM  
I consider not having iTunes to be a plus, not a negative.
 
2012-10-25 05:52:25 PM  
Thank got for no itunes.. i hope the subby was being sarcastic, itunes is one of the worst written and badly designed music organization programs ever made.... try clementine or other linux ones.. MUCH better
 
2012-10-25 05:57:35 PM  

serpent_sky: My laptop was dying so I rushed to buy one with Windows 7 before 8 came out. I did not want to be stuck with that seeming nightmare....


I just bought a new HP desktop computer for similar reasons. The only reason I keep any Windows machines around
is because my wife has a Cricut paper cutting machine whose software only runs on it, and I didn't want to risk that
Win8 wouldn't run it.
 
2012-10-25 06:23:29 PM  

DjangoStonereaver: serpent_sky: My laptop was dying so I rushed to buy one with Windows 7 before 8 came out. I did not want to be stuck with that seeming nightmare....

I just bought a new HP desktop computer for similar reasons. The only reason I keep any Windows machines around
is because my wife has a Cricut paper cutting machine whose software only runs on it, and I didn't want to risk that
Win8 wouldn't run it.

Why? it(Pro) runs all x86 programs.
/Maybe you mean Windows 8 RT
 
2012-10-25 06:23:32 PM  

Skyfrog: madgonad: meanmutton: madgonad: Endive Wombat: Doesn't come with iTunes currently, big deal isnt that what Windows Media player is for?

I am sure a Facebook app will come at some point, but isnt that what a web browser is for?

Honestly, I do not see the "need" for individual, compartmentalized apps. I much prefer to go through a web browser.

Also, Apple boasting that they have got 275,000 apps? How many are you really going to use? How many of those are in English? How many are actually useful to the average end user?

Finally, I think attempting to compare the Surface to the iPad is not 100% apples to apples. Based off what I have seen, I suspect that the Surface will have a lot more day to day business use than an iPad, largely due to the cover's touch pad and keyboard.

Media Player has been totally gimped. It can't even play a DVD anymore.

What's a DVD?

Okay, I'll translate for you. It can't play mpeg or mpeg2 content at all. Not sure about containers, but MS has had a history of being incompatible with them.

It can play MPEG2 content just fine, that is not the issue. It is the CSS decryption codecs for DRM encrypted DVDs that is no longer included with Windows (because they have to pay to license it). There are plenty of free players that include them though so it's really not a big deal.


Actually, no. Here is the list of codec and containers supported by Windows 8 according to Microsoft:

Video codecs
H.264,VC-1/WMV,MPEG4 Part 2
Audio Codecs
AAC,WMA,MP3,PCM,AC3
Containers
AVI, Mpeg-2TS,MP4, ASF, M4A, MP3, WAV 

No DVD navigator, CSS module, or MPEG2 decoder exists in the OS.

DVD playback is explicitly forbidden for Metro/WinRT apps.  Codec plugins are explicitly forbidden to the Metro web browser.

Codec sharing is possible in Metro/WinRT only through Windows Media Foundation filters, which have limited functionality in that environment.

In the desktop, specially signed video drivers are required to play HD content.  This is an extension of Windows 7 OPM aimed at defeating programs that disable HDCP requirements through driver shims.
 
2012-10-25 06:29:48 PM  

t3knomanser: Rambino: You mean other than Outlook?

Outlook doesn't run on the RT, last I checked. The default Mail application is utter shiate.


But the webapp does, whoda thunk it?
 
2012-10-25 06:36:31 PM  

theflatline: But the webapp does, whoda thunk it?


The web app is a pile of garbage. I mean, c'mon. It's nice if you're stuck, but you can't use it for daily use of Exchange. I'll sometimes use that to get at my work email when I don't feel like Citrixing in, but I'm not going to rely on that as an email client.

drjekel_mrhyde: People got over x86 vs 64 bit quickly.


Hah! Everyone in my office is running an x86 OS on 64-bit hardware, mostly because our software distribution tool doesn't fully support 64-bit yet. As I was mentioning to someone else regarding another issue relating to vendors being slow to adopt important features, my employer has a bad habit of getting in bed with vendors and when the morning rolls around and part of them realizes they just made a terrible mistake, they double down on it and move in.
 
2012-10-25 06:40:31 PM  

F42: Microsoft's vaporware tablet will fail because you cannot hold vapor in your hands.


you realize there are already physical units in select peoples hands, right?
 
2012-10-25 06:41:50 PM  
Started testing Win 8 on an old Dell XT when it went beta. I was a little unsure with its performance.

Last week I installed Win 8 pro 64-bit on my main workstation (a core i7 convertible tablet). Like others, once I got over the "zomg, there's no start button" stage, I'm really beginning to like it. It's light years faster, and the OS finally has a built in spell checker. Minor, I know, but it's nice. Along with a myriad of other little tweaks that improve the speed of operation and customization (pulling a 'metro' app to the side of the main desktop, then splitting two documents equally is nice). That said, I'll probably wait a little before trying to roll it out to the rest of the office.

/my 64gig Surface RT should arrive in the mail tomorrow.
 
2012-10-25 06:47:12 PM  
For how much of a failure so many people say W8 will be, how long will it be before it has more marketshare than Mountain Lion? Six months? A year? Probably less than that.

//Was going to buy several RT's at the imaginary $199 from a few months ago. Will wait and see at iPad prices.
 
2012-10-25 06:47:15 PM  

Skyfrog: It can play MPEG2 content just fine, that is not the issue. It is the CSS decryption codecs for DRM encrypted DVDs that is no longer included with Windows (because they have to pay to license it). There are plenty of free players that include them though so it's really not a big deal.


it was removed because most people (not sure if i'm allowed to say the exact percent.. it was a lot) didn't use them. so that is a lot of money out of pocket for a feature that almost none of our users used.

you can get it as a premium add on (Media Center) to Pro.

FuturePastNow: I think Windows 8 is a complete disaster as a computer OS, but the Surface and other devices like it look great. I don't think they'll ever reach iPad-level success, though.


I dislike the UI as much as anyone else here.. but don't confuse "i don't like this UI" for "this OS is utter fail". you can always install Stardock Start8
 
2012-10-25 06:48:47 PM  

MrSteve007: Started testing Win 8 on an old Dell XT when it went beta.


I knew it was lighter on resources than Windows 7, but I had no idea it would run on an 8088 PC.
 
2012-10-25 06:51:19 PM  
iTunes may be the worst music player I've ever used. I replaced it with mediamonkey for my iPhone, but use the Zine desktop software for most of my actual music listening.
 
2012-10-25 06:58:24 PM  

SuburbanCowboy: iTunes may be the worst music player I've ever used. I replaced it with mediamonkey for my iPhone, but use the Zine desktop software for most of my actual music listening.


The default music player may be bad, but it is no where near the abortion that the podcast app is. I'm actually amazed at how awful it is, being a first party app. I haven't always bought the "it just works" koolaid, but there was a fair amount of simplicity and UI genius in pretty much all Apple first party stuff. The podcast app sucks, badly. It will tell me that two podcasts are both playing at the same time, and while one is playing, it is neither of the two that is says are. I can choose to play a podcast and it will start another one. It will start playing (on it's own) if I get a phone call. As much as the map app is maligned, I don't use that daily.
 
2012-10-25 07:00:35 PM  

mjbok: For how much of a failure so many people say W8 will be, how long will it be before it has more marketshare than Mountain Lion? Six months? A year? Probably less than that.


Apple was singing from the mountain tops when Mountain Lion sold 3-million copies in the 4 days after launch.

Since 2010, 1-million PCs are sold . . . everyday.
 
2012-10-25 07:05:32 PM  
i really don't like itunes, but I have devices that require it, it's a vicious circle
 
2012-10-25 07:19:04 PM  

Brontes: And the Atom Z2760 is a total turd of a chip that is locked down to other OSes, so if you don't like Windows 8, to bad, no Linux for you. The Z2760 was designed for only one thing, to run Windows 8. Welcome to Microsoft's walled garden.


Yeah, I give the NetBSD folks a couple of months and they'll figure it out. After they crack it, all of the *nix folks open source that magic straight on over.
 
2012-10-25 07:21:36 PM  

Desquamation: FuturePastNow: I think Windows 8 is a complete disaster as a computer OS, but the Surface and other devices like it look great. I don't think they'll ever reach iPad-level success, though.

I've been running it on my daily driver since the RTM launch and have no complaints... After I got past the "ZOMG no Start Menu?!?!" stage it's been smooth sailing.


I had a couple hours of frustration when I first started using it, but now I can do things even faster in Win8 than I can in 7. The interface works, ladies and gents. Give Metro a shot and learn it and you'll notice differences even without a touchscreen.
 
2012-10-25 07:23:26 PM  

biyaaatci: Windows RT does not come with Windows Media Player and you can't join a domain. Difficult for entertainment and business. I'm sure I'm missing something, but for a Windows home or environment, those seem like pretty big oversights.


With that kind of focus on video, I can see why they decided to make the aspect ratio exactly 16x9.
 
2012-10-25 07:31:09 PM  

Rambino: BullBearMS: It also lacks important apps like a decent e-mail client.

You mean other than Outlook?


Windows RT can't run Outlook.
 
2012-10-25 07:33:56 PM  
All that being said, I may still get the surface.
I can see a use for it and it's keyboard cover when I'm traveling and have to scribe a meeting.

Any keyboard screen just isn't able to replace a separate keyboard.
 
2012-10-25 07:35:29 PM  

BullBearMS: Rambino: BullBearMS: It also lacks important apps like a decent e-mail client.

You mean other than Outlook?

Windows RT can't run Outlook.


It doesn't need to run Outlook. Outlook is gross overkill for 90% of people who use email on a tablet.

They offer one for installation. It has bugs, but they're bound to be fixed.
 
2012-10-25 07:37:01 PM  

theflatline: t3knomanser: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: The iPad, no matter what anyone says, is a giant iPod Touch.

Just as a point: I've written software on the iPad. Not for the iPad. On it. It's certainly not my preferred environment, but it's entirely workable, especially with an external keyboard. Koder is actually one of the better programmer's text editors that I've used on any platform.

On a related note, Visual Studio is absolutely terrible on the Surface. It's all about optimizing for the screen realestate, and VS2012 is an absolute hog. I'm usually running three monitors at the office, and I absolutely refuse to do programming on just the dinky laptop screen.

Also, I've been very disappointed in Win8's touchscreen features. It's really wonky to use, and really- that tile-based app launcher is awful. I'm still not sure how I'm supposed to add widgets to it, not that I've spent much time thinking about it.

So what you you really should have said is while you can code on both, you prefer to code on traditional equipment. Because the IPAD would also qualify as a dinky laptop screen.

And there is a difference between a text editor and a full blown IDE, which you have access to in need of an emergency fix.

Plus with HDMI out on the Surface you have HDMI out so you could literally plug a monitor in. And of course you can always use an external keyboard.

So advantage Surface.


It'll take an extra adapter that you can pick up for maybe $30 but you can do all that stuff, including HDMI, on an iPad too.
 
2012-10-25 07:40:11 PM  

meanmutton: What's a DVD?


dl.dropbox.com
 
2012-10-25 07:41:19 PM  

Marine1: BullBearMS: Rambino: BullBearMS: It also lacks important apps like a decent e-mail client.

You mean other than Outlook?

Windows RT can't run Outlook.

It doesn't need to run Outlook. Outlook is gross overkill for 90% of people who use email on a tablet.

They offer one for installation. It has bugs, but they're bound to be fixed.


Now we're back to Windows RT Surface lacking a decent e-mail client. Just like the original Blackberry Playbook.
 
2012-10-25 07:45:10 PM  

BullBearMS: It also lacks important apps like a decent e-mail client. It's the 2012 version of the Blackberry Playbook.


Look, I know you're just an anti-MS troll, but I'll go ahead and bite anyway.

Who needs an email client? Webmail FTW.

/I don't think I've used a dedicated email client in... going on 15 years now.
 
2012-10-25 07:52:39 PM  

Honest Bender: Who needs an email client?


Yes. That's exactly what the idiots at RIM said about the Playbook.
 
2012-10-25 07:58:32 PM  

BullBearMS: Honest Bender: Who needs an email client?

Yes. That's exactly what the idiots at RIM said about the Playbook.


I, too, often avoid the question if I don't have an answer. Sure, you end up looking evasive and foolish. But better that than admit you don't know, I suppose.
 
2012-10-25 07:59:08 PM  

Brontes: if you don't like Windows 8, to bad, no Linux for you.


And nothing of value was lost.
 
2012-10-25 07:59:21 PM  

BullBearMS: Honest Bender: Who needs an email client?

Yes. That's exactly what the idiots at RIM said about the Playbook.


I really want to know how much Apple pays you. You're in every Apple thread lapping at Herr Jobs' rotting balls.

//Per Microsoft the RT can be set up to contact an enterprise email server.
 
2012-10-25 08:02:31 PM  
It takes about eight years for Microsoft to copy Apple's software, but I'm impressed that it only took three years to copy Apple's hardware.
 
2012-10-25 08:05:05 PM  

Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: It takes about eight years for Microsoft to copy Apple's software, but I'm impressed that it only took three years to copy Apple's hardware.


Is this what the drooling masses really believe? My, how fragile your ego must be...
 
2012-10-25 08:08:25 PM  

mjbok: BullBearMS: Honest Bender: Who needs an email client?

Yes. That's exactly what the idiots at RIM said about the Playbook.

RT can be set up to contact an enterprise email server.


That does nothing to fix the shiatty e-mail client.

Windows 8 Mail leaves users pining for the desktop-or even their phones
 
2012-10-25 08:09:07 PM  

BullBearMS:

Now we're back to Windows RT Surface lacking a decent e-mail client.


So we're to understand you have used the built in mail client, then? Please enlighten us, what about it is not "decent" in your experience with it?
 
2012-10-25 08:30:04 PM  

BullBearMS: Windows 8 Mail leaves users pining for the desktop-or even their phones


Interesting read. I especially like the parts where they said the version previewed wasn't nearly finished. Or how people generally liked it except for the lack of features, which I would guess was likely related to it, you know, not being finished.
 
2012-10-25 08:53:13 PM  

drjekel_mrhyde: DjangoStonereaver: serpent_sky: My laptop was dying so I rushed to buy one with Windows 7 before 8 came out. I did not want to be stuck with that seeming nightmare....

I just bought a new HP desktop computer for similar reasons. The only reason I keep any Windows machines around
is because my wife has a Cricut paper cutting machine whose software only runs on it, and I didn't want to risk that
Win8 wouldn't run it.
Why? it(Pro) runs all x86 programs.
/Maybe you mean Windows 8 RT


Its more that I'm worried there won't be drivers for it I guess.
 
2012-10-25 08:55:35 PM  

Honest Bender: except for the lack of features


So aside from it lacking basic functionality, it's fine? Just like the Blackberry Playbook!

Then there's the fact that this is a tablet whose major selling point is an Office Suite with basically no touch support whatsoever.

Fail. Just buy a damn netbook. At least they can run real versions of Windows software.
 
2012-10-25 08:57:58 PM  
I'm in a rather large IT shop and the general consensus is: Microsoft announces Windows Vista ME.

Not that it's actually horrible, but.. there's just nothing it does that appeals to me either as a user or a buyer. Timing couldn't be worse, remind customers they're on the hook for big ELA fees while they're deciding whether to push users to a 100% virtual solution launched from a very stripped and locked down local host.

I'll add some Apple hate, just because: I figured maybe I was an oddball for not finding the iphone 5 interesting or appealing, but Apple is on a roll here: The new ipad is.. the same exact thing, just slightly smaller. or bigger. And the new imac is supposedly thinner. Or something.

MS has a future, customers know exactly how much it will cost to switch to an alternative to exchange and mssql. Apple has a future selling to people who want exactly what they had last time. Grandparents.
 
2012-10-25 09:00:24 PM  

BullBearMS: Honest Bender: except for the lack of features

So aside from it lacking basic functionality, it's fine?


Considering it's pre-release and still in development... YES! And it wasn't basic functionality. They specifically mentioned that it did the basic functions quite well but that it was lacking in "additional" functionality.

Are you prepared to admit you were wrong yet? Or do you want to reply with more lies and spin?
 
2012-10-25 09:11:46 PM  

Honest Bender: They specifically mentioned that it did the basic functions quite well but that it was lacking in "additional" functionality.


LOL. In the article about how the Windows RT email program makes people pine for their cell phone instead?

I notice you completely leave out that part about Office and all desktop software on Surface completely lacking any sort of touch interface despite being billed as "no compromises". Why is that?
 
2012-10-25 09:22:11 PM  
Who the hell need's microsoft's walled garden? Mobile devices are stupid and irrelevant.
 
2012-10-25 09:25:50 PM  
 
2012-10-25 09:38:28 PM  
Isn't this kind of a moot issue at this point, because don't most Apple devices, save the Ipod Nano/Classic already have iTunes built in, or at least as a downloadable app?
 
2012-10-25 09:47:57 PM  
I'm halfway interested in MS's offering, but I'm already deeply invested in my iPad.

Before you scream "APPLE FANBOY DURR!" let me point out that I also have a very nice Android phone (Samsung Galaxy Exhibit), and I built my gaming PC with an ASUS motherboard, Radeon 7800, 6GB of RAM, and a Phenom II X4 955 with a very nifty CoolerMaster Storm case, so I'm not tied to one company, at all. I get what I can afford, and what works for my needs.

But the thing is, this release of Surface is too little, too late. If MS had been on this tablet thing three years ago, I might be on-board. Unfortunately for them, I've already spent a shiatload on apps and accessories for my iPad, and I'm not going to drop them to switch to a "Windows on a tablet" experience... Not with MS's reputation and record compounding my concerns.

Yes, I owned a Zune HD... And it was nice hardware, but MS did so very little to support it, I had no choice but to dump it before it dropped in value any more.

Yes, I love some MS hardware-- especially some of their mice and keyboards-- But a tablet? After what I saw with the Zune line? Forget it.

I'll stick with the iPad. Everyone else just came in too late, and I'm already dug in like a tick.
 
2012-10-25 09:50:47 PM  

BullBearMS: mjbok: BullBearMS: Honest Bender: Who needs an email client?

Yes. That's exactly what the idiots at RIM said about the Playbook.

RT can be set up to contact an enterprise email server.

That does nothing to fix the shiatty e-mail client.

Windows 8 Mail leaves users pining for the desktop-or even their phones


I gotta say: People still use email clients on their PC? Really?

I've been getting my email via gmail for years now. I dropped Thunderbird about three or four years ago. It was just redundant. Most of my mail comes to my phone or iPad, but if I want it on my PC I can always log into gmail and grab it.

I just don't get the point of having Outlook or Thunderbird or any other mail client in Windows, anymore.
 
2012-10-25 09:54:31 PM  
Surface is the new Zune. I give it two years before they discontinue it.
 
2012-10-25 10:24:18 PM  

BullBearMS: Honest Bender: They specifically mentioned that it did the basic functions quite well but that it was lacking in "additional" functionality.

LOL. In the article about how the Windows RT email program makes people pine for their cell phone instead?


FTFA: For the basics of reading and replying to e-mail, displaying folders, moving messages between folders, sending and receiving attachments, and such, Metro Mail works well enough.

BullBearMS: I notice you completely leave out that part about Office and all desktop software on Surface completely lacking any sort of touch interface despite being billed as "no compromises". Why is that?


I "left that out" because we weren't talking about that. I'm sure I failed to cover a number of topics we weren't discussing.

We were talking about your opinion that there wasn't a satisfactory email application for Win 8. Do try and stay on topic. I think you'll find that, when you're failing to defend your point, I wont be easily diverted off topic.
 
2012-10-25 10:27:51 PM  
Does anyone have any experience with Chromebooks? I considered ordering one of the new ones, but I figured I'd wait until more reviews rolled in.
 
2012-10-25 10:31:25 PM  

Hand Banana: Surface is the new Zune. I give it two years before they discontinue it.


That's fine as long as it did it's job and forced OEM's to stop selling junk full of bloat
 
2012-10-25 10:33:55 PM  

Swoop1809: Does anyone have any experience with Chromebooks? I considered ordering one of the new ones, but I figured I'd wait until more reviews rolled in.


If you like everything "in the cloud" it's for you
 
2012-10-25 10:36:49 PM  

Swoop1809: Does anyone have any experience with Chromebooks? I considered ordering one of the new ones, but I figured I'd wait until more reviews rolled in.


From everything I've seen they are basically the worst aspects of Android tablets and laptops combined into one failtastic product. Get a Transformer with a laptop dock instead.
 
2012-10-25 10:43:43 PM  

Honest Bender: FTFA: For the basics of reading and replying to e-mail, displaying folders, moving messages between folders, sending and receiving attachments, and such, Metro Mail works well enough.


That would be wonderful, in 1996.
 
2012-10-25 10:46:42 PM  

BullBearMS: Honest Bender: FTFA: For the basics of reading and replying to e-mail, displaying folders, moving messages between folders, sending and receiving attachments, and such, Metro Mail works well enough.

That would be wonderful, in 1996.


You mean when MS first had tablets, not Apple?
 
2012-10-25 10:46:54 PM  
The surface might be a useful replacement for the typical employee that doesn't need heavy processing. As much as I love my iPad, I've really only been able to use it to check in with work, rather than do anything particularly productive with it (part because I need heavier software and part because Angry Birds is a swipe away).

It the Surface has full versions of Excel, Word, and Powerpoint, full web support, and email, then it would seem to have a chance.
 
2012-10-25 11:12:29 PM  

Swoop1809: Does anyone have any experience with Chromebooks? I considered ordering one of the new ones, but I figured I'd wait until more reviews rolled in.


Ehh for $250, how bad could it be?
 
2012-10-25 11:12:35 PM  

theflatline: BullBearMS: Honest Bender: FTFA: For the basics of reading and replying to e-mail, displaying folders, moving messages between folders, sending and receiving attachments, and such, Metro Mail works well enough.

That would be wonderful, in 1996.

You mean when MS first had tablets, not Apple?


When Microsoft first failed at tablets, you mean?
 
2012-10-25 11:14:14 PM  

ZeroCorpse: BullBearMS: mjbok: BullBearMS: Honest Bender: Who needs an email client?

Yes. That's exactly what the idiots at RIM said about the Playbook.

RT can be set up to contact an enterprise email server.

That does nothing to fix the shiatty e-mail client.

Windows 8 Mail leaves users pining for the desktop-or even their phones

I gotta say: People still use email clients on their PC? Really?

I've been getting my email via gmail for years now. I dropped Thunderbird about three or four years ago. It was just redundant. Most of my mail comes to my phone or iPad, but if I want it on my PC I can always log into gmail and grab it.

I just don't get the point of having Outlook or Thunderbird or any other mail client in Windows, anymore.


I have my own mail server because I don't want to give clients a gmail address (it's a peeve of mine). I have a webmail interface installed which I frequently use and I have it set up to go to my phone as well. My server sits in a data center, so I don't have to question my internt connection uptime @ home.

That being said, I still use Outlook on my desktop to retrieve mail because I kind of like the idea of not having all of my eggs in one basket. The same would be true if I had a gmail account. I wouldn't trust all of my business emails to someone elses server and not have a backup, hell I don't even trust my own server as a sole source. That just seems foolish.
 
2012-10-25 11:25:25 PM  

theflatline: BullBearMS: Honest Bender: FTFA: For the basics of reading and replying to e-mail, displaying folders, moving messages between folders, sending and receiving attachments, and such, Metro Mail works well enough.

That would be wonderful, in 1996.

You mean when MS first had tablets, not Apple?


*cough* newton.

/sorry, not an apple fan but you have to give credit where it's due.
 
2012-10-25 11:33:01 PM  

skazzytl: typing

skazzytl: Windows key + start typing is way faster for launching apps than clicking through a start menu


Windows 7 does that, too. If the program I'm looking for isn't already visible when I open the start menu, I just start typing.
 
2012-10-25 11:35:07 PM  

sethen320: theflatline: BullBearMS: Honest Bender: FTFA: For the basics of reading and replying to e-mail, displaying folders, moving messages between folders, sending and receiving attachments, and such, Metro Mail works well enough.

That would be wonderful, in 1996.

You mean when MS first had tablets, not Apple?

*cough* newton.

/sorry, not an apple fan but you have to give credit where it's due.


The newton was a PDA, not a tablet.
 
2012-10-25 11:37:44 PM  

theflatline: sethen320: theflatline: BullBearMS: Honest Bender: FTFA: For the basics of reading and replying to e-mail, displaying folders, moving messages between folders, sending and receiving attachments, and such, Metro Mail works well enough.

That would be wonderful, in 1996.

You mean when MS first had tablets, not Apple?

*cough* newton.

/sorry, not an apple fan but you have to give credit where it's due.

The newton was a PDA, not a tablet.


That was the biggest PDA I've ever seen (I have one in a box somewhere)!

Ok though, I'll give you that one. It wasn't good for much. No, I didn't buy it, I acquired it way after it was obsolete as a curiosity.
 
2012-10-25 11:38:48 PM  

MisterTweak: I'm in a rather large IT shop and the general consensus is: Microsoft announces Windows Vista ME.

Not that it's actually horrible, but.. there's just nothing it does that appeals to me either as a user or a buyer. Timing couldn't be worse, remind customers they're on the hook for big ELA fees while they're deciding whether to push users to a 100% virtual solution launched from a very stripped and locked down local host.

I'll add some Apple hate, just because: I figured maybe I was an oddball for not finding the iphone 5 interesting or appealing, but Apple is on a roll here: The new ipad is.. the same exact thing, just slightly smaller. or bigger. And the new imac is supposedly thinner. Or something.

MS has a future, customers know exactly how much it will cost to switch to an alternative to exchange and mssql. Apple has a future selling to people who want exactly what they had last time. Grandparents.


Apple really pissed me off. I was days away from getting an iPad 3 regardless of their announcement but now I can get something better for the same price but possibly not before I actually have the opportunity to get it. My first thought was to simply get the iPad 3 for $100 less but it suddenly no longer exists!
 
2012-10-25 11:58:40 PM  

Tobin_Lam: skazzytl: typingskazzytl: Windows key + start typing is way faster for launching apps than clicking through a start menu

Windows 7 does that, too. If the program I'm looking for isn't already visible when I open the start menu, I just start typing.


It's a lot faster on Windows 8 though. On my Windows 7 machine it does a search which sometimes can take up to a few seconds, but on Windows 8 it's instant.
 
2012-10-26 01:29:07 AM  
Oh look, BullshiatBS is shilling for Apple. How unexpected.
 
2012-10-26 03:00:21 AM  

theflatline: Endive Wombat: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Endive Wombat:
Finally, I think attempting to compare the Surface to the iPad is not 100% apples to apples. Based off what I have seen, I suspect that the Surface will have a lot more day to day business use than an iPad, largely due to the cover's touch pad and keyboard.

The Surface looks useful. The iPad, no matter what anyone says, is a giant iPod Touch.

I still to this day maintain that no REAL work can be performed on a tablet. The Surface is the only thing that may change my opinion on the matter.

At least you can get a fleshlight attachment for your iPad. I doubt Microsoft will be coming out with that accessory anytime soon...

Actually back in 2004 there was a company called HiJoy, that had USB pocket pussies, vibrating eggs, and dildos, that you could use while webcaming with someone, or watching precorded videos, Jenna Jameson was the spokeperson and you could even digitally bang her. The company I worked for sold them some videochatting software with api hooks for the controls.


Hahaha I did the audio for that lol 

/ well did the VO stuff
//kind of a big deal
 
2012-10-26 08:07:12 AM  
I think Surface will fail, but mostly because of the keyboard issue. The ASUS Taichi and even the Lenovo Yoga has better designs on how to get around that particular issue.
 
2012-10-26 09:38:43 AM  

BullBearMS: Honest Bender: They specifically mentioned that it did the basic functions quite well but that it was lacking in "additional" functionality.

LOL. In the article about how the Windows RT email program makes people pine for their cell phone instead?

I notice you completely leave out that part about Office and all desktop software on Surface completely lacking any sort of touch interface despite being billed as "no compromises". Why is that?


I notice you didn't quote the whole thing. Why is that?
 
2012-10-26 10:12:32 AM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: We'll just overlook the bigger issues: Microsoft, and Windows 8


The New York Times review of Windows 8 was.... unfavorable. It does sound like it sucks.
 
2012-10-26 10:28:32 AM  

Orgasmatron138: MaudlinMutantMollusk: We'll just overlook the bigger issues: Microsoft, and Windows 8

The New York Times review of Windows 8 was.... unfavorable. It does sound like it sucks.


I've had some experience with it and you can get used to the changes pretty easily. For the most part, it is possible to treat it like Windows 7 with added features if you really want that experience.
 
2012-10-26 10:44:33 AM  

pkellmey: Orgasmatron138: MaudlinMutantMollusk: We'll just overlook the bigger issues: Microsoft, and Windows 8

The New York Times review of Windows 8 was.... unfavorable. It does sound like it sucks.

I've had some experience with it and you can get used to the changes pretty easily. For the most part, it is possible to treat it like Windows 7 with added features if you really want that experience.


The review was so bad it felt like it was going overboard; not surprised there's another side to the story.

I really like Windows 7, and I have no use for the tablet-like interface or myriad of apps on the screen. I hate a cluttered desktop, so the only thing I have on my desktop is the recycle bin. I either set up hotkey commands or use the start menu to open programs. I'll probably stick with 7 for now.
 
2012-10-26 11:15:05 AM  

Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: It takes about eight years for Microsoft to copy Apple's software, but I'm impressed that it only took three years to copy Apple's hardware.


Microsoft isn't even close to Apple's software group. On one hand, they have the best developer story in the world, hands-down. VS2012 and the .Net runtime are modern marvels, on par with other great engineering achievements like skyscrapers and supercars.

Ther OS group, on the other hand, is crippled by backwards compatibility because they sold computers to grandmas and huge businesses that are used to throwing their weight around. Unfortunately, those same businesses didn't just hire an enterprise OS group and work on the source code, instead they muscle Microsoft around by threatening to take their business elsewhere if anything changes. Grandmas freak out if anything takes a half-second to learn (look at every thread about Windows 8 for examples).

Because of this, they are straightjacketed and can't do stuff like event-driven, notification-based UI, or flexible screen layout, or insist everyone learn a bizarre computer programming language to program for their devices, or take away VBScript and replace it with something better, or add a new shell, or whatever. Apple went from growl notifications to notification center in one release, broke growl, said "screw you" and whistled while walking away.

Microsoft would never get away with something like that. That's just off the top of my head. Oh, how about reversing trackpad scroll direction and calling it "natural scrolling"? Or breaking compatibility with a whole world of hardware and software by going x86? MS can't even do that on a brand new tablet device without everyone freaking out. Meanwhile, not a single piece of MacOSX software runs on iPad and nobody has mentioned it once.

Apple has trained its developers to hate themselves and its users to be delighted by new shiat. They make whatever they want to, whenever they want to, and everybody deals with it. I almost feel sorry for Microsoft to have to put up with the complaining every time they do anything.
 
2012-10-26 12:47:26 PM  

PsyLord: Doesn't come with iTunes is actually a selling feature for me, subby.

/hates that iTunes shiat


THIS.

Pro comes out in Jan, looking forward to it!
 
2012-10-26 01:50:34 PM  
Will it run the Zune software? That would help.
 
2012-10-26 02:10:33 PM  

Skarekrough: My boss is betting that within a year we will all be using Surface devices and will slowly be phasing out our desktops and laptops.

As the IT Manager for the place I'm stocking up on Pepto and bourbon.


Besides possibly a smaller screen, how exactly is a Surface any different than a laptop?

I guess specs would be lower... but most sales people don't need more than roughly tablet specs to get their job done.
 
2012-10-26 02:13:54 PM  

gingerjet: theflatline: And there is a difference between a text editor and a full blown IDE, which you have access to in need of an emergency fix.

Plus with HDMI out on the Surface you have HDMI out so you could literally plug a monitor in. And of course you can always use an external keyboard.

So advantage Surface.

How is it "advantage Surface" when you can do all those things with the iPad?


Outside of the Apple Reality Distortion Field, where exactly is the HDMI port on the iPad?

Hint: there isn't one.
 
2012-10-26 02:19:03 PM  

burndtdan: I definitely think it's a step in a direction I like, but I'll pass for now. I do hope the market moves further into blending the lines between tablet and laptop, where basically the laptop is just a tablet that you've connected a keyboard to, and a tablet is just a full blown computer that is only a touch screen.


Kinda like the tablets from 10 years ago where you took a laptop and swiveled the screen...

But Microsoft invented those so it isn't cool.
 
2012-10-26 02:20:54 PM  

Bullseyed: Skarekrough: My boss is betting that within a year we will all be using Surface devices and will slowly be phasing out our desktops and laptops.

As the IT Manager for the place I'm stocking up on Pepto and bourbon.

Besides possibly a smaller screen, how exactly is a Surface any different than a laptop?

I guess specs would be lower... but most sales people don't need more than roughly tablet specs to get their job done.


We have support folks whose mantra has been "when you pry my second and third monitor out of my cold, dead hands."
 
2012-10-26 03:14:28 PM  

BullBearMS: Marine1: BullBearMS: Rambino: BullBearMS: It also lacks important apps like a decent e-mail client.

You mean other than Outlook?

Windows RT can't run Outlook.

It doesn't need to run Outlook. Outlook is gross overkill for 90% of people who use email on a tablet.

They offer one for installation. It has bugs, but they're bound to be fixed.

Now we're back to Windows RT Surface lacking a decent e-mail client. Just like the original Blackberry Playbook.


It gets the job done. Move on.

Got to (briefly) play with one my professor picked up... the researcher in me is getting a megaboner from the idea of having a tablet with access to the entire library of Windows drivers.
 
2012-10-26 03:54:18 PM  

Bullseyed: Outside of the Apple Reality Distortion Field, where exactly is the HDMI port on the iPad?

Hint: there isn't one.


Where's the HDMI port on the Surface? From what I can see, it has an MHL port, which requires an adapter just like the iPad. Granted, it is a lot cheaper than the iPad dongle, but you can't just plug it in with a HDMI standard cable.
 
2012-10-26 04:00:07 PM  

Mad_Radhu: Bullseyed: Outside of the Apple Reality Distortion Field, where exactly is the HDMI port on the iPad?

Hint: there isn't one.

Where's the HDMI port on the Surface? From what I can see, it has an MHL port, which requires an adapter just like the iPad. Granted, it is a lot cheaper than the iPad dongle, but you can't just plug it in with a HDMI standard cable.


Close enough. Those things are a dime a dozen.

I don't mind when adapters are cheap and easily found. Sometimes, designs require smaller ports. It's when they're $50 a piece (like Apple's) that I get pissed.
 
2012-10-26 04:34:28 PM  

Orgasmatron138: pkellmey: Orgasmatron138: MaudlinMutantMollusk: We'll just overlook the bigger issues: Microsoft, and Windows 8

The New York Times review of Windows 8 was.... unfavorable. It does sound like it sucks.

I've had some experience with it and you can get used to the changes pretty easily. For the most part, it is possible to treat it like Windows 7 with added features if you really want that experience.

The review was so bad it felt like it was going overboard; not surprised there's another side to the story.

I really like Windows 7, and I have no use for the tablet-like interface or myriad of apps on the screen. I hate a cluttered desktop, so the only thing I have on my desktop is the recycle bin. I either set up hotkey commands or use the start menu to open programs. I'll probably stick with 7 for now.


Ditto. I can't abide a cluttered desktop either, I just have a Favorites folder (upper left) and the Recycle bin (lower right), and that leaves lots of space for a nice artwork desktop picture.

All my most-used apps are pinned to the Quick Start bar at the bottom.
 
2012-10-27 03:27:19 PM  

Marine1: Mad_Radhu: Bullseyed: Outside of the Apple Reality Distortion Field, where exactly is the HDMI port on the iPad?

Hint: there isn't one.

Where's the HDMI port on the Surface? From what I can see, it has an MHL port, which requires an adapter just like the iPad. Granted, it is a lot cheaper than the iPad dongle, but you can't just plug it in with a HDMI standard cable.

Close enough. Those things are a dime a dozen.

I don't mind when adapters are cheap and easily found. Sometimes, designs require smaller ports. It's when they're $50 a piece (like Apple's) that I get pissed.


$50 a piece? really? $22.99
 
2012-10-27 04:31:31 PM  

TheGhostofFarkPast: Marine1: Mad_Radhu: Bullseyed: Outside of the Apple Reality Distortion Field, where exactly is the HDMI port on the iPad?

Hint: there isn't one.

Where's the HDMI port on the Surface? From what I can see, it has an MHL port, which requires an adapter just like the iPad. Granted, it is a lot cheaper than the iPad dongle, but you can't just plug it in with a HDMI standard cable.

Close enough. Those things are a dime a dozen.

I don't mind when adapters are cheap and easily found. Sometimes, designs require smaller ports. It's when they're $50 a piece (like Apple's) that I get pissed.

$50 a piece? really? $22.99


That is the old connector. The lightning one is (indeed) $50. Link
 
2012-10-27 06:49:42 PM  

Mad_Radhu: Bullseyed: Outside of the Apple Reality Distortion Field, where exactly is the HDMI port on the iPad?

Hint: there isn't one.

Where's the HDMI port on the Surface? From what I can see, it has an MHL port, which requires an adapter just like the iPad. Granted, it is a lot cheaper than the iPad dongle, but you can't just plug it in with a HDMI standard cable.


Took another gander at it... it's supposedly a Micro HDMI port.
 
2012-10-27 09:19:39 PM  

mjbok: TheGhostofFarkPast: Marine1: Mad_Radhu: Bullseyed: Outside of the Apple Reality Distortion Field, where exactly is the HDMI port on the iPad?

Hint: there isn't one.

Where's the HDMI port on the Surface? From what I can see, it has an MHL port, which requires an adapter just like the iPad. Granted, it is a lot cheaper than the iPad dongle, but you can't just plug it in with a HDMI standard cable.

Close enough. Those things are a dime a dozen.

I don't mind when adapters are cheap and easily found. Sometimes, designs require smaller ports. It's when they're $50 a piece (like Apple's) that I get pissed.

$50 a piece? really? $22.99

That is the old connector. The lightning one is (indeed) $50. Link


I understand that but not everyone has a brand new iPad, 99 percent of the population right now has the old one and will for awhile. Any just like the connector I posted the new one will drop in price as well.
 
2012-10-27 10:44:31 PM  

TheGhostofFarkPast: I understand that but not everyone has a brand new iPad, 99 percent of the population right now has the old one and will for awhile. Any just like the connector I posted the new one will drop in price as well.


True (regarding the old connector), but as I understand it the Lightning connector has a chip in it that Apple will not give out so there will be no third party connectors. I know the connector (that you linked) is from Apple, but I also know that the camera kit (USB and SD) that was released when the original iPad came out has not come down in price.
 
2012-10-28 02:58:37 PM  

mjbok: TheGhostofFarkPast: I understand that but not everyone has a brand new iPad, 99 percent of the population right now has the old one and will for awhile. Any just like the connector I posted the new one will drop in price as well.

True (regarding the old connector), but as I understand it the Lightning connector has a chip in it that Apple will not give out so there will be no third party connectors. I know the connector (that you linked) is from Apple, but I also know that the camera kit (USB and SD) that was released when the original iPad came out has not come down in price.

 

If you buy it from Apple, no the camera connection kit hasn't come down in price. That isn't your only option, however. There are lots of alternatives. Which makes it really disingenuous to compare the Apple pricing for the official accessories to pricing for generic Android or Windows accessories.

It remains to be seen what Apple's legal team does, but the Lightning connector chip was cracked in no time by the Chinese, so off-brand cables and connectors are at the very least going to show up in the gray market very soon.
 
2012-10-28 02:59:34 PM  

Marine1: Mad_Radhu: Bullseyed: Outside of the Apple Reality Distortion Field, where exactly is the HDMI port on the iPad?

Hint: there isn't one.

Where's the HDMI port on the Surface? From what I can see, it has an MHL port, which requires an adapter just like the iPad. Granted, it is a lot cheaper than the iPad dongle, but you can't just plug it in with a HDMI standard cable.

Took another gander at it... it's supposedly a Micro HDMI port.


Which still needs some sort of adapter or special cable. It's not like the HDMI port on my laptop.
 
2012-10-28 10:19:16 PM  

whistleridge: Also...AppleAndroid is a special case, because of the fanboy effect.


FTFY
 
2012-10-28 10:33:31 PM  

Honest Bender: BullBearMS: It also lacks important apps like a decent e-mail client. It's the 2012 version of the Blackberry Playbook.

Look, I know you're just an anti-MS troll, but I'll go ahead and bite anyway.

Who needs an email client? Webmail FTW.

/I don't think I've used a dedicated email client in... going on 15 years now.


So, because it works for you we all have to use it, right?
 
2012-10-28 10:41:45 PM  

ZeroCorpse: I just don't get the point of having Outlook or Thunderbird or any other mail client in Windows, anymore.


Another one trying to tell us what to do. I use Firebird and like it. My mail is on my system and backed up. It won't get accessed during the next big hack. Not like it matters but just because you don't see the point is not my problem.
 
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