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(NewsBusters)   "Shuck and jive" is only racist when conservatives say it. Thank you for your attention   (newsbusters.org) divider line 213
    More: PSA, Sarah Palin, Shuckin' and jivin', Jonathan Alter, New York Attorney General, Steve McMahon, college transcripts, dog whistles, Rachel Maddow  
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1480 clicks; posted to Politics » on 25 Oct 2012 at 12:51 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-25 02:31:48 PM  

ExpressPork: verbaltoxin: HotWingConspiracy: ExpressPork: I think that he was maybe trying to make a different point, but I'm not obtuse enough to think that this statement is representative of the entire Republican party.

Part of the GOP platform is no abortion exceptions for the victims of rape.

This right here. I'd have more respect for everyone labeling themselves "independent" "libertarian" or "fiscal conservative" if they bothered to hold the religious whackos' feet to the fire.

I promise the Dems are guilty of pandering to religion as well.


Tell us how a party platform isn't representative of the entire party.

Furthermore, none of you said a gd thing when this happened and it was completeley absent from the news.

Google will most certainly disagree with you.
 
2012-10-25 02:35:53 PM  
"Shuck and jive"

Isn't that the name of an oyster bar where they play soul music?

Or where black people process freshly harvested corn?

///which one of these crosses the line?

///whoops
 
2012-10-25 02:37:39 PM  

ExpressPork: partisan222: yes, we saw him pile up lie after lie in an unapologetic and even dickish manner then whine when he got called on his proven lies.

And find me 5 Democratic Senators that believe something along the lines of 'rape babies are a gift from God." Maybe you can track down the 80 members of the House that Allen West says are communists and traitors.

you can't. and that's why you are wrong and should feel badly about yourself.

Ironically, lIberals are the ones who have so much to learn about tolerance.

You need to be more specific and cite examples when you make comically immature statements like "pile up lie after lie in a dickish manner".

If we're going to split hairs over this statement let's begin with exactly what Richard Mourdock (Indiana GOP Senate candidate) said:
"Life is that gift from God. I think that even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something God intended to happen."

Mourdock's statement is completely asinine and Mourdock should apologize and duck out of the Senate race immediately. I think that he was maybe trying to make a different point, but I'm not obtuse enough to think that this statement is representative of the entire Republican party. That would be a ridiculous assertion and I recognize that on my own because I'm not a partisan boob who let's the news make up my mind for me.


find me a Democrat who yelled at a Republican president in the middle of a State of the Union. You can't.

Find me a Democrat who accused over 80 members of the Republican Party as being communists and traitors. You can't.

I don't even know what the opposite of the rape babies argument is, but let's just say it's "forced abortions". Find me a current Democratic candidate running for office who has publically stated that women should have forced abortions with no exceptions, or a Democratic candidate who has stated that abortions can be reversed because the woman's body will just "shut that thing down". See, it's ridiculous because there just isn't anyone on the other side saying this kind of crazy. But with the Repubs it's not an isolated case, or a bunch of wackos from Arkansas who defend slavery (that's real too from the AK Reps), it is a national trend that goes from local and state politics all the way up to the national platform!

And Im not going to touch the Romney lies because it will take far too long to recount even a portion of his flip-flops and outright lies. Like I said, even Newt Gingrich flat out called him a liar and let's not forget Candy Crowley. But you know this.

So I stand by my words, you are wrong and you should feel terribly. I have no tolerance for propaganda of this sort, and no thinking person should either.
 
2012-10-25 02:46:00 PM  

ExpressPork: Imagine if Banghazi had happened under Bush. Can you all take the blinders off for a second and just imagine the rage if Benghazi had happened under GW?


June 14, 2002, U.S. consulate in Karachi, Pakistan
Suicide bomber kills 12 and injures 51.

February 28, 2003, U.S. consulate in Karachi, Pakistan
Gunmen on motorcycles killed two consulate guards.

July 30, 2004, U.S. embassy in Taskkent, Uzbekistan
Suicide bomber kills two.

December 6, 2004, U.S. consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia
Militants stormed and occupied perimeter wall. Five killed, 10 wounded.

March 2, 2006, U.S. consulate in Karachi, Pakistan
Suicide car bomber killed four, including a U.S. diplomat

September 12, 2006, U.S. embassy in Damascus, Syria
Gunmen attacked embassy with grenades, automatic weapons, and a car bomb. One killed and 13 wounded.

March 18, 2008, U.S. embassy in Sana'a, Yemen
Mortar attack misses embassy, hits nearby girls' school instead.

July 9, 2008, U.S. consulate in Istanbul, Turkey
Armed men attacked consulate with pistols and shotguns. Three policemen killed.

September 17, 2008, U.S. embassy in Sana'a, Yemen
Militants dressed as policemen attacked the embassy with RPGs, rifles, grenades and car bombs. Six Yemeni soldiers and seven civilians were killed. Sixteen more were injured.

So yeah, you do have to imagine the rage from the liberals and the media, because there was none. But this one single attack in Libya? We've been hearing the wailing and gnashing of teeth from Fox News and right wing politicians for weeks. So please, do us all a favor and shut your pie hole about things you are clearly ignorant of.

ExpressPork: Look at the Obama circle-jerk thread about his appearance on Letterman from earlier today on this very site. The Obajma worship is an embarrassment. It would be comical if it weren't so frightening. It's a like a cult. He is a farking politican you partisan boobs.


Oh, I didn't realize that you were just trolling. Carry on
 
2012-10-25 02:48:30 PM  
gracelessland.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-10-25 02:49:32 PM  

ExpressPork: I am making the case (as many liberals have as well) that America's opinion of Romney was largely and unfairly shaped by the media prior to the debates.


I have to agree, Fox oversold this guy relentlessly.
 
2012-10-25 02:50:47 PM  

Disposable Rob:

You're not from the South are you.


Yes, actually I am.

JerkStore: Translation:

I'm not very well read or familiar with American history, therefore anyone using a implicitly racist phrase I've never heard of should be granted immunity. I also have a hard time understanding how language evolves and what a word means today might not be what it meant 150 years ago. Context is hard for people like me, because I have no cultural literacy, so I tend to simply hide behind simplistic analysis that only frames things in terms I'm familiar with and ignores the rest.

AKA "I'm just asking questions here."


I've never heard this phrase in my life, although I am from the south and have had more than my share of interactions with racists in my life. My grandfather would drop the n-bomb all the time like it was nothing. I am very well read and familiar with American history, though it's certainly possible that one single particular aspect of a particular subset of that history could easily escape me.

Or, translation of your post: I like making broad generalizations about things with little or no context or knowledge, while ironically accusing someone of doing just that.

And an aside, your point that language evolves and word meanings change would seem to logically weaken the argument that a word must be offensive because it was offensive 150 years ago. Although that's not a point I personally would make, you weaken your own argument by saying it)
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-10-25 02:51:16 PM  

ExpressPork: HotWingConspiracy: Hahahaha, some of those quotes come from GOP politicians that have won several elections. The remainders are from conservative media stooges that no one in the party would dare to cross.

In short, you're full of shiat.

You want to put the conservatives on the defense because you have nothing else left.
The fine Americans of your party would be better off focusing their efforts on policy than playing this riduclous "gotcha" game all the time. More and more Americans are getting tired of it. Whether Mitt's "5-point-plan" is complete BS or not, at least it's a plan.

For the Average Independent or swing voter that is even remotely interested in politics. Their choices are a candidate who is pushing a plan for job growth, and a candidate whose biggest issues seem to be big bird, binders, and bayonets. I'm an Independant voter who has voted for both parties in the past and take it from me - for the last several weeks you've seen an implosion of the D party because of trivial bs like the "3 b's" and the statements by Chris Matthews are no exception.


It's cute how you guys live in your own little world where you no news reaches you except what you want to hear. I wish I could watch your breakdown when the "unskewed polls" turn out to have been as accurate as anything in the right wingnutosphere.
 
2012-10-25 02:51:45 PM  

madgonad: The Wiki makes the dog whistle more notable:

Shuckin' and jivin' (or shucking and jiving) is a southern American slang term for the behavior of joking and acting facetiously. More generally, the term can also refer to the speech and behavioral mechanisms adopted in the presence of an authoritative figure.[1] Shuckin' and jivin' usually involves clever lies and impromptu storytelling, used to one-up an opponent or avoid punishment. Shuckin' and Jivin': Folklore from Contemporary Black Americans (ISBN 0-253-20265-5) is the name of a book written by Daryl Cumber Dance in 1981. In 1972, the Johnny Lewis Quartet record a soul jazz LP called Shuckin' 'N Jivin' .[2] "Shuckin and Jivin" is also the title of a song by the Osmonds 1971[3]
The term is also used in the Southern United States referring to deceit or mischief involving lies

The bold is mine. This gets to the intent of the usage.


Yeah...you cut out the [citation needed] portion.

But ignoring that - note that it says "Southern United States." I wonder what other...peculiar things were prevalent in the South when that saying came about...

Nah...it can't be a reference to African-Americans deceving their masters. Must be some innocent explanation.

Yeah, I'm sure Sarah Palin uses the term CONSTANTLY in her normal life. She just so happened to use it to refer to a president who just so happens to be African-American.

I'm sure it's just a coincidence.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-10-25 02:55:39 PM  
www.plunderbund.com
 
2012-10-25 03:00:42 PM  

partisan222: find me a Democrat who yelled at a Republican president in the middle of a State of the Union. You can't.


This is such an oddly specific scenario.

Find me a Democrat who accused over 80 members of the Republican Party as being communists and traitors. You can't.

Again, you are framing this argument based on specific incidents. It would be as though I said "Find me a Republican who dressed up in a ridiculous tiger suit." Or find me a Republican politician who voted twice. You can't. See what I mean?

I will paraphrase the rest of your "argument" for you by highlighting what I believe to be the most important part.

I don't even know what the opposite of the rape babies argument is, but let's just say it's "forced abortions". Find me a current Democratic candidate running for office who has publically stated that women should have forced abortions with no exceptions, or a Democratic candidate who has stated that abortions can be reversed because the woman's body will just "shut that thing down". See, it's ridiculous because there just isn't anyone on the other side saying this kind of crazy. But with the Repubs it's not an isolated case, or a bunch of wackos from Arkansas who defend slavery (that's real too from the AK Reps), it is a national trend that goes from local and state politics all the way up to the national platform!

And Im not going to touch the Romney lies because it will take far too long to recount even a portion of his flip-flops and outright lies. Like I said, even Newt Gingrich flat out called him a liar and let's not forget Candy Crowley. But you know this.

So I stand by my words, you are wrong and you should feel terribly. I have no tolerance for propaganda of this sort, and no thinking person should either.
 

Bringing up such oddly specific incidents with disgraced/resigned politicians only serves to distract from real issues. It's unhealthy for either side to do it. You are all so focused on the moral implications of Mitt Romney's favorite book or some other trivial nonsense that you completely miss the big picture. And.....what was it you said to me earlier? Maybe you are a bad person who should feel badly about yourself. 

Just kidding I have no ill-will towards you and I don't want you to feel bad.
 
2012-10-25 03:02:30 PM  

Dr Dreidel: while spooning Haagen-Dazs into each others' assholes.


Jesus, you mean all these years I've been eating it wrong? How embarrassing!
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-10-25 03:04:56 PM  

madgonad: The Wiki makes the dog whistle more notable:

Shuckin' and jivin' (or shucking and jiving) is a southern American slang term for the behavior of joking and acting facetiously. More generally, the term can also refer to the speech and behavioral mechanisms adopted in the presence of an authoritative figure.[1] Shuckin' and jivin' usually involves clever lies and impromptu storytelling, used to one-up an opponent or avoid punishment. Shuckin' and Jivin': Folklore from Contemporary Black Americans (ISBN 0-253-20265-5) is the name of a book written by Daryl Cumber Dance in 1981. In 1972, the Johnny Lewis Quartet record a soul jazz LP called Shuckin' 'N Jivin' .[2] "Shuckin and Jivin" is also the title of a song by the Osmonds 1971[3]
The term is also used in the Southern United States referring to deceit or mischief involving lies

The bold is mine. This gets to the intent of the usage.


Yes, we also have a term for:
improvised solution: ******-rigged.
a cane fussing pole: ******-pole.
a night stick : ****** knocker.

Nothing racist about any of those. (hint ****** is the same word in each).
 
2012-10-25 03:05:41 PM  

ExpressPork: Fat Old Broad: Shuck and jive. Rape pregnancy is a gift. Forcible rape. Your body can shut that down. Retard. You're a slut if you use birth control.

This is the MAINSTREAM of the Republican party. I almost can't believe it.

You shouldn't believe it because it's not the case at all. It's easier to pick out a few conservative sound bites and paint them all as evil fascist racist pigs than it is to argue policy. All you need is common sense to know that it is absolutely ridiculous to paint (all) conservatives like this. C Matthews is ridiculous to take issue with someone using this phrase, but I'm not surprised as he is the Glenn Beck of Democrats. I'm surer there are plenty of kooks on both sides, but all you need is common sense to know that you're bring unfair to call this the "mainstream of the Republican Party".

Take MItt Romney for example. For weeks all we heard from every media outlet in America save Fox that he was a bumbling, lying, cheating incompetent who didn't stand a chance against Obama. Love him or hate him, look what happened after America actually saw Mitt argue in a debate and they were able to judge for themselves. Stop letting hack journalists and bloggers make up your mind for you. Stop being so gd partisan.


One has to look no futher than thier party platform which has institutionalized bigotry agaist gay people as a plank to see they are bigots. The people that support them are complicit in this bigotry if not vocally, tacitly. If they were really serious about proving they aren't bigots then maybe the "mainstream of the Republican Party" ought to speak up before their leaders try to push thier radical agenda without thier consent.

But we both know thats not going to happen becuase Republicans are either complicite or complete farking idiots.
 
2012-10-25 03:11:14 PM  

ExpressPork:

You want to put the conservatives on the defense because you have nothing else left.
The fine Americans of your party would be better off focusing their efforts on policy than playing this riduclous "gotcha" game all the time. More and more Americans are getting tired of it. Whether Mitt's "5-point-plan" is complete BS or not, at least it's a plan.

For the Average Independent or swing voter that is even remotely interested in politics. Their choices are a candidate who is pushing a plan for job growth, and a candidate whose biggest issues seem to be big bird, binders, and bayonets. I'm an Independant voter who has voted for both parties in the past and take it from me - for the last several weeks you've seen an implosion of the D party because of trivial bs like the "3 b's" and the statements by Chris Matthews are no exception.


i865.photobucket.com
 
2012-10-25 03:13:31 PM  

vpb: madgonad: The Wiki makes the dog whistle more notable:

Shuckin' and jivin' (or shucking and jiving) is a southern American slang term for the behavior of joking and acting facetiously. More generally, the term can also refer to the speech and behavioral mechanisms adopted in the presence of an authoritative figure.[1] Shuckin' and jivin' usually involves clever lies and impromptu storytelling, used to one-up an opponent or avoid punishment. Shuckin' and Jivin': Folklore from Contemporary Black Americans (ISBN 0-253-20265-5) is the name of a book written by Daryl Cumber Dance in 1981. In 1972, the Johnny Lewis Quartet record a soul jazz LP called Shuckin' 'N Jivin' .[2] "Shuckin and Jivin" is also the title of a song by the Osmonds 1971[3]
The term is also used in the Southern United States referring to deceit or mischief involving lies

The bold is mine. This gets to the intent of the usage.

Yes, we also have a term for:
improvised solution: ******-rigged.
a cane fussing pole: ******-pole.
a night stick : ****** knocker.

Nothing racist about any of those. (hint ****** is the same word in each).


What's cane fussing?

Not a threadjack, just curious.
 
2012-10-25 03:15:38 PM  

vpb: It's cute how you guys live in your own little world where you no news reaches you except what you want to hear. I wish I could watch your breakdown when the "unskewed polls" turn out to have been as accurate as anything in the right wingnutosphere.


Do you have a direct response to anything I said? I don't understand how what you said even remotely is related to my comment.

Let's ignore the non-sequitur for the moment and I'll directly address your comment anyway.

I watch MSNBC. I watch Fox News. I watch CNN. I watch all of them because i enjoy taking the nation's political pulse every once in while and contrast what the talking heads are discussing. I'm not afraid of what one side or the other has to say. The differences in the way the news is covered are remarkable, but I'm never afraid to listen to one talking head or another because of what they are saying. I'm betting that you could not say the same.

Every poll in the country has Obama losing ground to Romney in every demographic for the last 3 weeks - more specifically since the first debate. Invariably. Every one. So I must ask, where are you getting your information? Exclusively from The Daily Show and Fark greenlights? I think maybe you're the one that needs to get out of the "nut-o-sphere" as you called it.

What polls are you referring to specifically and are you implying that I would assert that those polls are unskewed(?) or that I would assert that they are inaccurate? Or are you saying that the (un)skewed polls are (in)accurate? Please be more articulate in your response so that I can formulate a proper response.
 
2012-10-25 03:17:48 PM  

Ctrl-Alt-Del: Oh, I didn't realize that you were just trolling. Carry on


Oh I didn't realize you had nothing to refute my argument so you resort to accusing me of being a troll. Gee whiz, I guess you win this round!

Carry on.
 
2012-10-25 03:23:22 PM  

Maud Dib:

[i865.photobucket.com image 360x450]


I know the image is meant as a joke, but it does make an interesting point about Ind voters.

Why would a self-identified "Independent" or "Libertarian" tend to vote Republican? Or, to put it another way, why would Republican voters wish to disassociate themselves from the Republican party.  I have an answer but I will anxiously await some responses first.
 
2012-10-25 03:24:51 PM  
i always assumed it meant that a person was speaking circumlocuriotously.
 
2012-10-25 03:27:40 PM  

colon_pow: i always assumed it meant that a person was speaking circumlocuriotously.


shuck and jive is definately easier to spell...
 
2012-10-25 03:29:25 PM  

ExpressPork: Why would a self-identified "Independent" or "Libertarian" tend to vote Republican?


Same reason progressives and democratic socialists vote Democrat. The GOP doesn't totally reflect their values, but (in theory) they're much closer than the Democrats. And their disassociation is to point out that there are significant differences; a progressive who is going to vote for Obama will note that they are a progressive and disagree with drone warfare despite their party affiliation.

The GOP also has a tendency to claim a 'big tent' set of ideas (again, in theory), such that being near libertarian or christian conservative or neocon are all considered within the same set of ideas. Liberals don't have that homogeneity; Greens are proud of their subculture while neocons just claim to be Republicans.
 
2012-10-25 03:31:51 PM  

ExpressPork: Or, to put it another way, why would Republican voters wish to disassociate themselves from the Republican party.


upload.wikimedia.org
 
2012-10-25 03:44:45 PM  
'Shuck and jive'? This is an actual phrase with meaning? o.O

/I feel like I'm talking to my grandparents all of a sudden...
 
2012-10-25 03:46:51 PM  
That's because only Republicans consistently use it in a racist context.
 
2012-10-25 03:52:53 PM  

sprawl15: Same reason progressives and democratic socialists vote Democrat. The GOP doesn't totally reflect their values, but (in theory) they're much closer than the Democrats. And their disassociation is to point out that there are significant differences


I agree with your statement when it applies to true independents, libertarians etc. It definitely applies to me. I am proud to be voting Romney in this election.

Perhaps I didn't phrase my original question correctly. One can presume that there are a lot of people who really consider themselves republicans (whatever that means any more), but for one reason or another are forever reluctant to admit it.

My theory is that these people will never admit it out of fear of being labelled as "bigot", "fascist", "racist", "homophobe, etc etc etc. It's easier to dismiss these assumptions by labelling yourself as an Independant than to have ignorant people make judgments about your character completely based on your political party. Ironically the sames ones that preach "tolerance" are the same ones that are always passing judgment.
 
2012-10-25 03:56:10 PM  

ExpressPork: Or, to put it another way, why would Republican voters wish to disassociate themselves from the Republican party.


graphics8.nytimes.com
 
2012-10-25 03:58:33 PM  

ExpressPork: Or, to put it another way, why would Republican voters wish to disassociate themselves from the Republican party.


wallstcheatsheet.com
 
2012-10-25 04:00:52 PM  
I'm not from the south, but I have heard the term from time to time, not in a racist context though. A friend of mine, a very hard working jazz/latin musician in NYC uses "shuck and jive" to refer to the BS that permeates academia, especially in the realm of jazz education. He's white but then again he's been hanging in a racial melting pot for 40 years.

So I don't know.

/not a Fark Independent, btw.
 
2012-10-25 04:12:19 PM  

ExpressPork: My theory is that these people will never admit it out of fear of being labelled as "bigot", "fascist", "racist", "homophobe, etc etc etc.


Notice how the problem you're talking about has escalated significantly with the tea party and the evangelist Christians taking a leadership role? They work directly contrary to a lot of aspects of conservatism. Reaganites could play nice with Libertarians, but neither can play well with the tea party. It's offsetting.

ExpressPork: I am proud to be voting Romney in this election.


ew

ExpressPork: It's easier to dismiss these assumptions by labelling yourself as an Independant than to have ignorant people make judgments about your character completely based on your political party


Well, a big problem now is that party is tied ridiculously strongly to identity in the rhetoric. Either you are a Republican or you hate America and furthermore communism. Either you are a Democrat or you are racist teabagger. With that kind of hard duality to the rhetoric, there absolutely is a judgment of character based on vocal assertion of what party someone is. Particularly among those who are on the right, because of the intense nationalism; someone with a PROUD TO BE A REPUBLICAN bumper sticker is a far right nutball 99 times out of 100.
 
2012-10-25 04:17:29 PM  

ExpressPork:
Every poll in the country has Obama losing ground to Romney in every demographic for the last 3 weeks - more specifically since the first debate. Invariably. Every one.


images.sodahead.com

graphics8.nytimes.com

Now I know you're trollin'.

img48.imageshack.us
 
2012-10-25 04:27:53 PM  

ExpressPork: sprawl15: Same reason progressives and democratic socialists vote Democrat. The GOP doesn't totally reflect their values, but (in theory) they're much closer than the Democrats. And their disassociation is to point out that there are significant differences

I agree with your statement when it applies to true independents, libertarians etc. It definitely applies to me. I am proud to be voting Romney in this election.

Perhaps I didn't phrase my original question correctly. One can presume that there are a lot of people who really consider themselves republicans (whatever that means any more), but for one reason or another are forever reluctant to admit it.

My theory is that these people will never admit it out of fear of being labelled as "bigot", "fascist", "racist", "homophobe, etc etc etc. It's easier to dismiss these assumptions by labelling yourself as an Independant than to have ignorant people make judgments about your character completely based on your political party. Ironically the sames ones that preach "tolerance" are the same ones that are always passing judgment.


Not sure why you bother its not possible to have a rational conversation here anymore unless you agree with every single Dem/Liberal/Obama talking point, you are immediately attacked/insulted/dismissed as clearly a racist/idiot/teabagger. The only reason to hang around anymore is in the slim hope that this community will one day get over the partisanship that pervades politics and go back to being what it was before it was decided on both sides of the spectrum that if you did not agree with them you were unpatriotic/cowardly/racist/teabagger/etc.
 
2012-10-25 04:33:31 PM  

cman: Not a fan of NB, but they do kinda have a point....


From Yahoo News:

As Politico points out, this isn't the first time the phrase has come up and inspired controversy. Several years ago, Andrew Cuomo, then New York's Attorney General, used the expression while campaigning for Hillary Rodham Clinton. "You can't shuck and jive at a press conference," Cuomo said. "All those moves you can make with the press don't work when you're in someone's living room."

Cuomo was promptly blasted by CNN's Roland Martin, who wrote: "'Shucking and jiving' have long been words used as a negative assessment of African Americans, along the lines of a 'foot shufflin' Negro.' In fact, I don't recall ever hearing the phrase used in reference to anyone white."

Cuomo is, to my knowledge, a Democrat.

Of course, we're still waiting for Palin to criticize ANY Republican who refers to Democrats as 'retards'. After attacking Rahm Emmanuel for saying it, she gave Rush Limbaugh a pass because he was being 'satirical'. And I'm guessing she hasn't said anything about Coulter.
 
2012-10-25 04:38:07 PM  
Bullshiat. I got called out the other day for saying that Bill Maher saying "retard' is equally as offensive as Ms. Coulter. And when Chris Mathews says " shuck and jive" or Maddow says "Shuck and jive" it is equally offensive, but when the freaking GOP says it, the response is but.... but..... Mathews and Maddow said it. I want to be snarky, but please reevaluate your position. You are justifying your racist statement by saying, "but they said it too, waH"
 
2012-10-25 04:57:56 PM  

sprawl15: Notice how the problem you're talking about has escalated significantly with the tea party and the evangelist Christians taking a leadership role? They work directly contrary to a lot of aspects of conservatism. Reaganites could play nice with Libertarians, but neither can play well with the tea party. It's offsetting.


First of all, thank you for the thoughtful & respectful response.

I disagree. The basic tenets of the "tea party" are and (as far as I know always been) quite simply less-Government, lower taxes. I have never found there to be any evidence that they were "racists" save when people on forums such as this one parrot the accusations of others that they are all crazy, or racists.
You can post all the "lol" pics of grannies wearing tea-bags on their hats and we can all have a giggle about how "lame" they are but there's nothing ethically wrong with being lame. Furthermore there isn't anything ethically wrong with wanting lower taxes and less government. The tea party has been demonized since it's beginning because the Dems are scared of it. It's easier to be dismissive and call someone a racist than to argue policy.

You mentioned Christians "taking a leadership role" and I don't think their influence has changed at all. If anything it has lessened. Proof of this can be seen with the legalization of gay marriage in more and more states. As an agnostic I don't like being force-fed Christian-specific beliefs any more than you probably do but I believe that save for their views on homosexuality Christian values are generally good ones. And that's not even to say that all Christians have a problem with homosexuality, gay marriage, et al. Christianity is actually much more "tolerant" (today) than almost any other religion. Is there a religion in the modern world that approves of homosexuality? Buddhism maybe? Sadly, half of the religions in this world would probably burn you alive for it.

ew

Look at Obama's economic stats. You can't defend those numbers. They are absolutely beyond disgraceful. You get a big fat "EW" right back at ya for voting for that monument of domestic fail. The economy should be the single most important issue in this election because a failed economy renders every other issue moot. If we're all penniless and starving then it will no longer matter whether gays can marry or we're making windmill-powered cars.
 
2012-10-25 04:58:18 PM  
www.damnthatsracist.com 

/oblig
//If you can get away with saying it in the middle of a crowd of black people, have fun
///wear sneakers for better traction on the escape
 
2012-10-25 05:07:12 PM  

Maud Dib: Now I know you're trollin'.


Since yesterday? Wow.

If you are so completely unaware of Romney's recent surge in the polls since the first debate then just use google. It's not a Republican or Fox News lie or whatever. Its a fact. He has been having a massive surge among the general polls and every demographic. I can't believe I'm even dignifying your comment with a rebuttal but here ya go, if you're really living under a rock, here's one article to support my wildly unfounded clain that Romney has been steadily gaining in poll numbers:

New York Times article posted two hours ago: Has Romney's Rise in Polls Stopped?

"Romney's Rise in Polls"
Hmmmm....I wonder what they're implying with that phrase.....?
 
2012-10-25 05:09:49 PM  

JerseyTim: Is there anyone who actually likes Chris Matthews? I mean, I'm a pretty liberal guy, and never once have I or any of my comrade ever said, "I can't wait to find out what Chris Matthews says about this!" or "Did you see Chris Matthews last night?"

I think that guy is like the Chris Berman of MSNBC. They keep him around because they think he's indispensable, but in reality no one actually likes him.


A most relevant and awesome comparison.

/jib
//newsletter
 
2012-10-25 05:16:28 PM  

ExpressPork: Look at Obama's economic stats. You can't defend those numbers. They are absolutely beyond disgraceful.


So you're saying we're worse off than in 2008?
 
2012-10-25 05:17:48 PM  

Nunya_Bizness: Not sure why you bother its not possible to have a rational conversation here anymore unless you agree with every single Dem/Liberal/Obama talking point, you are immediately attacked/insulted/dismissed as clearly a racist/idiot/teabagger. The only reason to hang around anymore is in the slim hope that this community will one day get over the partisanship that pervades politics and go back to being what it was before it was decided on both sides of the spectrum that if you did not agree with them you were unpatriotic/cowardly/racist/teabagger/etc.


Whoa. Thanks man. I know its futile but I must continue to fight to regain sanity.
I was away from fark for a while but I remember the community back in the day being way cool. Not at all like this. Any opposing view point here is completely shunned. It's totally depressing.
 
2012-10-25 05:21:18 PM  

cman: Not a fan of NB, but they do kinda have a point....


Yeah, you have a whole lot more reputation rehabilitation to do before you can start concern trolling like that.

Good try, though.
 
2012-10-25 05:23:05 PM  

Karma Curmudgeon: meh, I didn't know the etymology of the phrase. I willing to bet she really didn't either.



Same here.  However... RE: my posting the Willie and Waylon album cover.  "Mr. Shuck and Jive" is a Jimmy Webb song covered by many including W&W and Art Garfunkel.  I grew up loving that song.  How is that not racist, if these other mentions of it are?  I see no evidence of controversy with that song.
 
2012-10-25 05:26:59 PM  

ExpressPork: Furthermore there isn't anything ethically wrong with wanting lower taxes and less government. The tea party has been demonized since it's beginning because the Dems are scared of it.


No, the problem with the tea party - and I'm talking of the movement post being coopted by Fox, not the near libertarians they used to be - is that they're inconsistent and silly in their application of their beliefs. The most obvious examples are of course the silly signs like KEEP YOUR GOVERNMENT HANDS OFF MY MEDICARE. But that's just a symptom, there's a fundamental disconnect in terms of belief and justification for that belief. I can explain exactly why I feel the way I do about, say, the health care bill. But in a lot of cases, they've taken positions that can otherwise be valid for totally invalid reasons. I signed up on a throwaway e-mail account to a tea party site a long time ago to troll (never got around to it), and the flood of e-mails I received were all just totally and completely unabashed in their fear-based tactics. It was never, "Here's the details of this situation", it was just straight, "OBAMA BAD".

If you want to disagree with me on something, that's fine. I can sit down and argue my position, and you can argue yours, and we can see eye to eye even if we don't agree and move on. But that only works if both parties come to the argument with consistent logic; if you're against obamacare because socialism and then against cuts to medicaid because That's Important, it's a logical disconnect. If you're consistent in believing the government shouldn't have anything to do with people's health care, then that's fine. If you're consistent in believing the government should completely run it, that's fine. But people pick and choose what they're willing to let slide based on their political beliefs - their partisan nature defines the possibilities they allow themselves to consider.

And when you mention 'ethical wrongness', that's where I disagree. It's absolutely ethically wrong to impose governance when you have no idea why you believe what you believe. And that's the fundamental problem with the far right, which has been catered to significantly. I can look at Obama's big policy papers, his $5 trillion in deficit reduction, and call that bullshiat because he provided the numbers and I can clearly see where he includes extant laws in his calculations of effect of proposed plans. I can say that because he's laid out very clearly what he wants to do. With Romney, his five point plan is explained by a long paper that spends 6 of 8 pages either complaining about Obama or in an appendix, with the two remaining pages of actual policy having nothing to do with his five point plan.

That, to me, is ethically wrong. I could agree entirely with Romney's conclusions, but it's absolutely critical that the method be capable. Without sound methodology, it's just bullshiat.

ExpressPork: You mentioned Christians "taking a leadership role" and I don't think their influence has changed at all.


It absolutely has. There has been a massive influx on religious morality being imposed on others - something that works against the idea of even basic constitutional principles. The argument isn't so much that Christianity is bad, it's that the enforcement of even otherwise good laws on other people on a religious basis is bad. If we want to make gay marriage illegal, then there needs to be a solid secular reason for it. And in that case it's pretty obvious, but on legislation across the board, from people voting against climate change legislation because they believe God would not let humans fark up the world, to people like that asshole saying rape babies are a gift from God, they are letting their religious fervor impose itself on their legislation.

In previous generations of Republicans, religion wasn't kept far from the heart, but there was at least a nominal separation. They had to have a logical basis to support their arguments. They had think tanks and intellectuals and policy papers and other things to support their beliefs - something tangible that you could disagree with. You can't disagree with or argue against a position that essentially boils down to Because America, or Because Jesus.

ExpressPork: Look at Obama's economic stats.


This is exactly the problem. You assume that I'm super pro-Obama based solely on my dislike for Romney, and instead of justifying your own position, you go on the attack. Attack is worthless. Politics is - or should be, rather - about finding the right decision, not about fending off the wrong decisions. It's not a binary world out there. You'd be best off disavowing yourself of that preconception.
 
2012-10-25 05:42:18 PM  

bdub77: Dan the Schman: bdub77: I'm really gonna have to go with Palin's too stupid to be offensive.

That doesn't even make sense. She's too stupid to be subtle, she's incapable of "dog whistle" politics. That's why she just blatantly said Obama pals around with terrorists, and wanted to push the Rev. Wright connection and said "don't retreat, reload". This fits perfectly with someone who can't tiptoe around edges with a nod and a wink.

It doesn't make her necessarily racist... but she is blatantly pandering to racists who hate Obama because Obama is part black.

I see your point. Correction: Palin's too stupid to realize she's being offensive.


She needs to not worry her purty li′l head about such men′s matters.
 
2012-10-25 05:54:47 PM  

Sybarite: while talking to Rachel Maddow about her visit to Afghanistan, wondered, "What has it been like, as you shuck and jive, hang out with the men over there, the women over there, in uniform risking their lives every day?"

Yes, because language is completely neutral and not contextualized by its use in centuries of oppression. "What do you mean I can't refer to a black person as a monkey? I call white people that all time!"


How do you breathe while you're sleeping?
 
2012-10-25 06:00:38 PM  
"I've never heard this phrase used in a racist way!"

N = 1.
 
2012-10-25 06:43:51 PM  
NewsBusters is only retarded when people with IQs above 80 read it
 
2012-10-25 08:15:41 PM  

ExpressPork: My theory is that these people will never admit it out of fear of being labelled as "bigot", "fascist", "racist", "homophobe, etc etc etc. It's easier to dismiss these assumptions by labelling yourself as an Independant than to have ignorant people make judgments about your character completely based on your political party.


Which is mostly why Fark Independents and Libertarians are such a joke: "I'm different; you can't box me in!"

Uh, okay, so you don't condone bigoted Republicans but you endorse them by pulling that lever anyway? Explain to me how that's different.

If you guys actually worked at getting independents into office -- actual independents who have no problem telling Dems and Reps alike to STFU -- I could respect you. However nine times out of ten you guys come off as self-deluded Republicans tools.

Case in point: LIbertarians.

This election you have Obama: socially liberal...ish (the cold war against gays in the miiltary is over; not exactly revolutionary) and fiscally conservative (you can shut your hole; "Obamacare" allows a meaningful reform while maintaining private industry and pays for itself - any fiscally liberal solution would have involved taking private industry out of the equation entirely).

Compare and contrast Romney: socially conservative fellow who is making complete fiscal irresponsibility a campaign promise (his plan is a train wreck unless the GDP explodes by over 30%. Be real; what are the chances of that and is that worth gambling over?)

Now, Libertarians pride themselves on being socially liberal and fiscally conservative. So it's pretty clear which candidate best represents their interests, right?

Yes, that's correct - Romney since he's Republican. Because even Libertarians don't take Gary Johnson seriously and just can't get over their irrational hatred of the label "Democratic Party"

Ironically the sames ones that preach "tolerance" are the same ones that are always passing judgment.

I do try to live and let live, but when you can't even be honest with yourself it's a bit painful to watch.

Being tolerant means not automatically assuming your neighbor is a dangerous fool because they're different than you. However if your neighbor belabors the point that they're not internally consistent, well...
 
2012-10-25 11:46:35 PM  

Diogenes: Oh, don't go so hard on Palin. She was just being an hysterical woman.


Seewhatyoudidthere.gif
 
2012-10-25 11:49:06 PM  

vpb: madgonad: The Wiki makes the dog whistle more notable:

Shuckin' and jivin' (or shucking and jiving) is a southern American slang term for the behavior of joking and acting facetiously. More generally, the term can also refer to the speech and behavioral mechanisms adopted in the presence of an authoritative figure.[1] Shuckin' and jivin' usually involves clever lies and impromptu storytelling, used to one-up an opponent or avoid punishment. Shuckin' and Jivin': Folklore from Contemporary Black Americans (ISBN 0-253-20265-5) is the name of a book written by Daryl Cumber Dance in 1981. In 1972, the Johnny Lewis Quartet record a soul jazz LP called Shuckin' 'N Jivin' .[2] "Shuckin and Jivin" is also the title of a song by the Osmonds 1971[3]
The term is also used in the Southern United States referring to deceit or mischief involving lies

The bold is mine. This gets to the intent of the usage.

Yes, we also have a term for:
improvised solution: ******-rigged.
a cane fussing pole: ******-pole.
a night stick : ****** knocker.

Nothing racist about any of those. (hint ****** is the same word in each).


Is it "jury"?

/C'mon Groucho.
//"Fart" doesn't work as well.
 
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