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(IT World)   Apple's redesigned iMac made using friction-stir welding and plasma deposition; may also include a flux capacitor   (itworld.com) divider line 91
    More: Interesting, flux capacitors, iMac, plasma, friction, deposits, stir welding  
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3375 clicks; posted to Geek » on 25 Oct 2012 at 11:53 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-25 09:30:39 AM
This is heavy
 
2012-10-25 09:32:31 AM
great scott
 
2012-10-25 12:02:47 PM
Friction stir welding: AKA ultrasonic welding, two similar plastic surfaces a smooshed together in such a way that ensures there are not user serviceable parts because the user won't be able to open the damned thing without a hacksaw.

Oh, and it's nothing new WTR most remote controls.
 
2012-10-25 12:06:31 PM
So is that the excuse they use to charge you 3 times what Dell or Asus would for a system with the same specs?
 
2012-10-25 12:08:00 PM
FSW is cool, but it's not like it's bleeding-edge fabrication technology or anything. It's decades old. The people jizzing their pants over "Kepler graphics" is the amusing part, IMO. They made that phrase up. Unlike "plasma deposition" and "friction stir welding" it does not have a preexisting meaning to provide context.
 
2012-10-25 12:08:24 PM

wildcardjack: Friction stir welding: AKA ultrasonic welding, two similar plastic surfaces a smooshed together in such a way that ensures there are not user serviceable parts because the user won't be able to open the damned thing without a hacksaw.

Oh, and it's nothing new WTR most remote controls.


Wankers!
 
2012-10-25 12:08:51 PM
And the big words will once again amaze the zombie masses that will stand in line for this new intel.. errr apple computer....
 
2012-10-25 12:11:54 PM

wildcardjack: Friction stir welding: AKA ultrasonic welding, two similar plastic surfaces a smooshed together in such a way that ensures there are not user serviceable parts because the user won't be able to open the damned thing without a hacksaw.


Shenanigans. It's the aluminum that's welded, the glass is still removable, probably via the suction cup method of the current iMacs.
 
2012-10-25 12:13:27 PM
Is Apple's marketing department TRYING to justify everything Samsung says about iFans?

"It has FRICTION STIR welding!!!.....What does that even mean?"
imageshack.us
 
2012-10-25 12:14:05 PM

wildcardjack: Friction stir welding: AKA ultrasonic welding, two similar plastic surfaces a smooshed together in such a way that ensures there are not user serviceable parts because the user won't be able to open the damned thing without a hacksaw.

Oh, and it's nothing new WTR most remote controls.


Yeah, only Apple-Approved repair tool is a Sawz-All.

To me, the welding is just flash with no real purpose. it may, but I don't see any benefit over what's currently being done with laptops.

I do get the fusion drive, people running VDI servers with SANs have been using this idea witha combination of SSD and SAS drives for years now. It's the next logical step, really. Your high usage files are migrated to the SSD portion while your lesser used files are moved to the SATA platters.

Just seems like something they're doing to say "LOOK HOW DIFFERENT WE ARE! WE'RE DOING CRAZY THINGS TO MAKE YOU THINK IT'S WORTH THE INSANE PROFIT MARGIN!"

Hate to say it, but Jobs probably wouldn't have done that.
 
2012-10-25 12:19:01 PM
Even the SSD/HDD fusion drive is already being implimented notably in lower cost ultrabooks from ASUS (UX32A) and Lenovo (U410/U310). I'm sure other manufacturers are doing something similar.

The integration Apple was give with the OS is probably a differentiator but really Windows can do the same thing.
 
2012-10-25 12:20:09 PM
Hey plasma depositions... nice. Course odds are they've been using that for a long ass time since most electronics use PVD stuff in one form or another

/works in that industry
 
2012-10-25 12:21:36 PM
Oh come on, so they talk about their manufacturing process in their ads. They probably spent millions retooling the factory floor and want to get some marketing value out of it. Everybody hates a show-off, I guess.
 
2012-10-25 12:21:43 PM
iMacs are already practically un-serviceable. Replacing the hard drive in one probably takes me 45 minutes or so. You have to have a suction cup to pull the glass on and off and depending on the model you'll need either a T6 screwdriver or some goddammed special bit that Apple uses. I know what I'm doing and it still takes a completely unreasonable amount of time to do anything to one.

I've made the point before that "Take it to an Apple Store" only works when you live someplace where there's an Apple store. Otherwise this is just more anti-consumer bullshiat. Not that anti-consumer bullshiat is anything new for Apple.
 
2012-10-25 12:24:11 PM

Faddy: Even the SSD/HDD fusion drive is already being implimented notably in lower cost ultrabooks from ASUS (UX32A) and Lenovo (U410/U310). I'm sure other manufacturers are doing something similar.


No, Apple's legal team will make sure that Apple will invented it already, before Asus has the opportunity to utilize it a long time ago. It's so simple. Time is an inconvenient illusion that can just be ignored.
 
2012-10-25 12:24:12 PM
 
2012-10-25 12:28:35 PM
Irony:
Apple products, made by the finest Chinese slave labor sold to asshole Americans who believe in Freedom fark YEAH!
 
2012-10-25 12:28:46 PM

likefunbutnot: iMacs are already practically un-serviceable


That's actually only a problem if your users want to upgrade parts. Most PC consumers, not just Apple users, don't upgrade parts. They buy a new computer when they want something bigger, faster or something breaks. This is why moving back to 'no user serviceable parts' just hasn't been an issue for Apple, people already acted that way. Switchers to iMacs didn't actually feel like they were giving anything up.

If you're looking to upgrade parts in your computer, you are in the minority.
 
2012-10-25 12:30:41 PM

SMB2811: likefunbutnot: iMacs are already practically un-serviceable

That's actually only a problem if your users want to upgrade parts. Most PC consumers, not just Apple users, don't upgrade parts. They buy a new computer when they want something bigger, faster or something breaks. This is why moving back to 'no user serviceable parts' just hasn't been an issue for Apple, people already acted that way. Switchers to iMacs didn't actually feel like they were giving anything up.

If you're looking to upgrade parts in your computer, you are in the minority.


Your fail began in your first assumption, and invalidated everything thereafter.
 
2012-10-25 12:40:49 PM
Fusion Drive- Already been to market for a while. They just cranked up the numbers a little.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148837

Oh, and they at the very least partially copied the name from another drive/storage solution

http://www.fusionio.com/products/iodrive/

Friction-stir welding- Been around since 91. Not a huge advance in any fashion for them to use it. Pretty simple stuff.

Kepler grahics- Thats nVidia's name for the GPU core Apple choose to use. They didn't invent shiat here. They just reused nVidia's name.

Plasma deposition-
Again, not something they invented. But it is a really nifty way to make the coatings etc they need super thin. At least this one isn't all hype. 


Over all it's just them implementing some techniques with fancy names and having a nerdgasm. All for a PC that you can't replace the HD without removing the screen.
 
2012-10-25 12:55:00 PM

lappyx86: Fusion Drive- Already been to market for a while. They just cranked up the numbers a little.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148837


Why all the butthurt that Apple is doing something new?

Apple does use a portion of the SSD as a temporary read/write cache as is common with hybrid disks, but unlike PC's it doesn't stop there.

Apple takes the SSD and the spinning disk and makes them look like one drive to the OS. Files are physically moved between the roomy but slow spinning disk and the more cramped but faster SSD based on how frequently they are used. You get to use the space on both devices simultaneously, instead of just treating the SSD as a cache with copies of files on the spinning disk.

People try to do this manually on Windows by setting up junction points between the OS on the SSD and their spinning disk, but some Windows software just doesn't work properly with junction points.
 
2012-10-25 01:11:04 PM

FunkyBlue: wildcardjack: Friction stir welding: AKA ultrasonic welding, two similar plastic surfaces a smooshed together in such a way that ensures there are not user serviceable parts because the user won't be able to open the damned thing without a hacksaw.

Oh, and it's nothing new WTR most remote controls.

Yeah, only Apple-Approved repair tool is a Sawz-All.

To me, the welding is just flash with no real purpose. it may, but I don't see any benefit over what's currently being done with laptops.

I do get the fusion drive, people running VDI servers with SANs have been using this idea witha combination of SSD and SAS drives for years now. It's the next logical step, really. Your high usage files are migrated to the SSD portion while your lesser used files are moved to the SATA platters.

Just seems like something they're doing to say "LOOK HOW DIFFERENT WE ARE! WE'RE DOING CRAZY THINGS TO MAKE YOU THINK IT'S WORTH THE INSANE PROFIT MARGIN!"

Hate to say it, but Jobs probably wouldn't have done that.


Funny, if Jobs was still alive, people would be blaming him for this. The iHaters are so eager to parrot whatever gets pumped into their empty heads.
 
2012-10-25 01:12:15 PM

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Your fail began in your first assumption, and invalidated everything thereafter.


Why is that? I work at a consumer-level repair shop, and that's pretty much exactly how most people react. They have a serious virus infection, we charge 150$ to remove them, a lot of people just say "skip it" and buy a 300 dollar PC to replace it. New parts, no virus, start off right.
 
2012-10-25 01:13:04 PM

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: SMB2811: likefunbutnot: iMacs are already practically un-serviceable

That's actually only a problem if your users want to upgrade parts. Most PC consumers, not just Apple users, don't upgrade parts. They buy a new computer when they want something bigger, faster or something breaks. This is why moving back to 'no user serviceable parts' just hasn't been an issue for Apple, people already acted that way. Switchers to iMacs didn't actually feel like they were giving anything up.

If you're looking to upgrade parts in your computer, you are in the minority.

Your fail began in your first assumption, and invalidated everything thereafter.


How is that a fail? You can argue with his premise - "most users don't want to upgrade parts" - but his conclusion logically follows from that premise - "if users don't want to upgrade parts, then having non-user serviceable parts isn't a problem."
I think your claim of fail is the real fail.
 
2012-10-25 01:13:43 PM

BullBearMS: lappyx86: Fusion Drive- Already been to market for a while. They just cranked up the numbers a little.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148837

Why all the butthurt that Apple is doing something new?

Apple does use a portion of the SSD as a temporary read/write cache as is common with hybrid disks, but unlike PC's it doesn't stop there.

Apple takes the SSD and the spinning disk and makes them look like one drive to the OS. Files are physically moved between the roomy but slow spinning disk and the more cramped but faster SSD based on how frequently they are used. You get to use the space on both devices simultaneously, instead of just treating the SSD as a cache with copies of files on the spinning disk.


You think hybrid drives mount as multiple volumes by default or something? Don't they all do caching? Link
 
2012-10-25 01:16:49 PM

Theaetetus: How is that a fail? You can argue with his premise - "most users don't want to upgrade parts" - but his conclusion logically follows from that premise - "if users don't want to upgrade parts, then having non-user serviceable parts isn't a problem."
I think your claim of fail is the real fail.


It does not follow. A user might want to perform repair or replacement rather than an upgrade. That's why the term is "user-serviceable" not "user-upgradable."
 
2012-10-25 01:16:50 PM

Theaetetus: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: SMB2811: likefunbutnot: iMacs are already practically un-serviceable

That's actually only a problem if your users want to upgrade parts. Most PC consumers, not just Apple users, don't upgrade parts. They buy a new computer when they want something bigger, faster or something breaks. This is why moving back to 'no user serviceable parts' just hasn't been an issue for Apple, people already acted that way. Switchers to iMacs didn't actually feel like they were giving anything up.

If you're looking to upgrade parts in your computer, you are in the minority.

Your fail began in your first assumption, and invalidated everything thereafter.

How is that a fail? You can argue with his premise - "most users don't want to upgrade parts" - but his conclusion logically follows from that premise - "if users don't want to upgrade parts, then having non-user serviceable parts isn't a problem."
I think your claim of fail is the real fail.


Upgrade parts != replacement parts. His entire argument was based on the premise that people only wanted to open up their systems for upgrades. Repairs are not the same thing.
 
2012-10-25 01:20:16 PM

ProfessorOhki: BullBearMS: lappyx86: Fusion Drive- Already been to market for a while. They just cranked up the numbers a little.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148837

Why all the butthurt that Apple is doing something new?

Apple does use a portion of the SSD as a temporary read/write cache as is common with hybrid disks, but unlike PC's it doesn't stop there.

Apple takes the SSD and the spinning disk and makes them look like one drive to the OS. Files are physically moved between the roomy but slow spinning disk and the more cramped but faster SSD based on how frequently they are used. You get to use the space on both devices simultaneously, instead of just treating the SSD as a cache with copies of files on the spinning disk.

You think hybrid drives mount as multiple volumes by default or something? Don't they all do caching? Link


Apple is not just doing caching here.

What they are doing is similar to what happens in enterprise level systems. Frequently used files are being physically moved to faster, more expensive storage. Infrequently used files are being physically moved to slower, cheaper storage.

Both devices are being utilized at the same time, while to the user, it appears that there is only one disk.
 
2012-10-25 01:25:39 PM

BullBearMS: Apple is not just doing caching here.

What they are doing is similar to what happens in enterprise level systems. Frequently used files are being physically moved to faster, more expensive storage. Infrequently used files are being physically moved to slower, cheaper storage.


You're right, caching is the wrong word because it's not duplicated, it's moved. That was my mistake - yes, it's already done by hybrid drives. Link
 
2012-10-25 01:28:38 PM

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Theaetetus: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: SMB2811: likefunbutnot: iMacs are already practically un-serviceable

That's actually only a problem if your users want to upgrade parts. Most PC consumers, not just Apple users, don't upgrade parts. They buy a new computer when they want something bigger, faster or something breaks. This is why moving back to 'no user serviceable parts' just hasn't been an issue for Apple, people already acted that way. Switchers to iMacs didn't actually feel like they were giving anything up.

If you're looking to upgrade parts in your computer, you are in the minority.

Your fail began in your first assumption, and invalidated everything thereafter.

How is that a fail? You can argue with his premise - "most users don't want to upgrade parts" - but his conclusion logically follows from that premise - "if users don't want to upgrade parts, then having non-user serviceable parts isn't a problem."
I think your claim of fail is the real fail.

Upgrade parts != replacement parts. His entire argument was based on the premise that people only wanted to open up their systems for upgrades. Repairs are not the same thing.


Except that other than fans, most repairs are also upgrades. 80GB hard drive died? Time to slap in a 250. Etc.
 
2012-10-25 01:30:24 PM

ProfessorOhki: BullBearMS: Apple is not just doing caching here.

What they are doing is similar to what happens in enterprise level systems. Frequently used files are being physically moved to faster, more expensive storage. Infrequently used files are being physically moved to slower, cheaper storage.

You're right, caching is the wrong word because it's not duplicated, it's moved. That was my mistake - yes, it's already done by hybrid drives. Link


No. No it isn't.

Apple's Fusion Drive does not appear to function like an SSD-backed disk cache, but rather seems more like a file-level implementation of a feature that has existed for some time in big enterprise disk arrays: automatic tiering.

Most big disk arrays have different types of storage-some slow spinning disk, some faster spinning disk, and some solid state storage-and some have the ability to monitor what data is being accessed the most and can automatically move that data to a faster tier of disk as needed. These features typically operate at the block level, below the files, and can be done on large or small chunks of data, depending on what's hot and what's not. Auto-tiering also includes the ability to take data that is no longer in demand, or no longer "hot" and demote it down off of fast disk and onto slower stuff. In this way, a file that doesn't get accessed very often might be stored on slow SATA disks, but if a hundred people need to open it repeatedly over a short period of time, it will get pulled up and kept on SSD until it's not needed anymore.

Based on Schiller's explanation, Fusion Drive sounds similar. In a caching solution, like Intel's, files live on the hard disk drive and are temporarily mirrored to the SSD cache as needed. In an enterprise auto-tiering situation, and with Fusion Drive, the data is actually moved from one tier to another, rather than only being temporarily cached there.
 
2012-10-25 01:30:43 PM
They also do totally cool things like gluing the battery in place and then soldering the RAM to the board. I can't wait for the day they make the iDesk and require you to place your iDevice on or the unit wont boot.
 
2012-10-25 01:30:44 PM

ProfessorOhki: BullBearMS: Apple is not just doing caching here.

What they are doing is similar to what happens in enterprise level systems. Frequently used files are being physically moved to faster, more expensive storage. Infrequently used files are being physically moved to slower, cheaper storage.

You're right, caching is the wrong word because it's not duplicated, it's moved. That was my mistake - yes, it's already done by hybrid drives. Link


I stand corrected, it's automatic-tiering at disk-level. Still, it's not new.
 
2012-10-25 01:37:39 PM

ProfessorOhki: ProfessorOhki: BullBearMS: Apple is not just doing caching here.

What they are doing is similar to what happens in enterprise level systems. Frequently used files are being physically moved to faster, more expensive storage. Infrequently used files are being physically moved to slower, cheaper storage.

You're right, caching is the wrong word because it's not duplicated, it's moved. That was my mistake - yes, it's already done by hybrid drives. Link

I stand corrected, it's automatic-tiering at disk-level. Still, it's not new.


Name one other Personal Computer doing this then.

What's up with this enormous butthurt over Apple doing something new?
 
2012-10-25 01:43:51 PM
MY GOD, APPLE HAS INTRODUCED THE HYBRID DRIVE!!! - OMG, it's farking amazing!!!@!@

Nevermind the Microsoft and Samsung introduced it 7-years ago.
 
2012-10-25 01:48:51 PM

BullBearMS: ProfessorOhki: ProfessorOhki: BullBearMS: Apple is not just doing caching here.

What they are doing is similar to what happens in enterprise level systems. Frequently used files are being physically moved to faster, more expensive storage. Infrequently used files are being physically moved to slower, cheaper storage.

You're right, caching is the wrong word because it's not duplicated, it's moved. That was my mistake - yes, it's already done by hybrid drives. Link

I stand corrected, it's automatic-tiering at disk-level. Still, it's not new.

Name one other Personal Computer doing this then.

What's up with this enormous butthurt over Apple doing something new?


So, if I make a PC and integrate a clock into the case, I invented the clock? You know, you're right, sticking it in a PC is new. Alright, if it matters that much to you, "Apple applies existing technology to consumer market before other integrators! Changes everything!"
 
2012-10-25 01:52:47 PM

ProfessorOhki: BullBearMS: ProfessorOhki: ProfessorOhki: BullBearMS: Apple is not just doing caching here.

What they are doing is similar to what happens in enterprise level systems. Frequently used files are being physically moved to faster, more expensive storage. Infrequently used files are being physically moved to slower, cheaper storage.

You're right, caching is the wrong word because it's not duplicated, it's moved. That was my mistake - yes, it's already done by hybrid drives. Link

I stand corrected, it's automatic-tiering at disk-level. Still, it's not new.

Name one other Personal Computer doing this then.

What's up with this enormous butthurt over Apple doing something new?

So, if I make a PC and integrate a clock into the case, I invented the clock? You know, you're right, sticking it in a PC is new. Alright, if it matters that much to you, "Apple applies existing technology to consumer market before other integrators! Changes everything!"


Do you have a source for Apple claiming to have invented hybrid drives? All I see are a lot of people complaining that Apple shouldn't say they invented it, but no evidence that they actually did say that.
 
2012-10-25 01:55:56 PM

ProfessorOhki: So, if I make a PC and integrate a clock into the case, I invented the clock? You know, you're right, sticking it in a PC is new. Alright, if it matters that much to you, "Apple applies existing technology to consumer market before other integrators! Changes everything!"


Using a tiny amount of Flash memory as a disk cache was a perfectly fine solution when Flash was super expensive.

However, that's not the case any more, is it?

This solution acknowledges the modern reality that all decent PC's will come with an SSD large enough for the OS and some files, but you're still going to need spinning disks to store large amounts of data.

Having the PC automatically manage what is stored where based on frequency of use instead of having the user do so manually is a superior solution, and I'm not quite sure why you're so butthurt that Apple did it first.
 
2012-10-25 01:56:57 PM
so the put a hybrid drive like the one i've had in my laptop for the last 2 years into the imac?

also, whoever let the marketing people write this should be shot, the BS levels are too damn high
 
2012-10-25 02:00:49 PM
Subby needs to submit an story along the lines of, "Apple does something new in the PC space. Intense butthurt ensues."
 
2012-10-25 02:08:34 PM
So, it more or less sounds like the drive I linked to just implemented at the OS level instead of at the drive level. Still, not that impressive.

Also, not butthurt. Just don't like people being deceived by the SJRDF.
 
2012-10-25 02:09:01 PM

MrSteve007: MY GOD, APPLE HAS INTRODUCED THE HYBRID DRIVE!!! - OMG, it's farking amazing!!!@!@

Nevermind the Microsoft and Samsung introduced it 7-years ago.


if Microsoft spends R&D on something and not make any money, you can guarantee Apple can spend a huge % less money and make money hand-over-fist on it

efficiency, how does it work
 
2012-10-25 02:09:25 PM

BullBearMS: Having the PC automatically manage what is stored where based on frequency of use instead of having the user do so manually is a superior solution, and I'm not quite sure why you're so butthurt that Apple did it first.


You mean like Readyboost - introduced in Vista? And how they implement SuperFetch technology, initially via readyboost and then in NAND enabled hard drives?

It's cute watching the reality distortion field in effect. Windows has been doing this for 3 generations now, caching and storing data on faster drives, based on usage patterns and performance boosts.
 
2012-10-25 02:30:28 PM

lappyx86: Fusion Drive- Already been to market for a while. They just cranked up the numbers a little.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148837

Oh, and they at the very least partially copied the name from another drive/storage solution

http://www.fusionio.com/products/iodrive/

Friction-stir welding- Been around since 91. Not a huge advance in any fashion for them to use it. Pretty simple stuff.

Kepler grahics- Thats nVidia's name for the GPU core Apple choose to use. They didn't invent shiat here. They just reused nVidia's name.

Plasma deposition- Again, not something they invented. But it is a really nifty way to make the coatings etc they need super thin. At least this one isn't all hype. 


Over all it's just them implementing some techniques with fancy names and having a nerdgasm. All for a PC that you can't replace the HD without removing the screen.


All good stuff. What Apple needs to do is to start offering Windows 7.
 
2012-10-25 02:34:29 PM

Slaves2Darkness: Irony:
Apple products, made by the finest Chinese slave labor sold to asshole Americans who believe in Freedom fark YEAH!


And your computer you typed that bullshiat on was made only by the most skilled of American laborers right?
 
2012-10-25 02:35:42 PM
I farking hate their press junkets.

That being said, how do you have a workstation-grade computer without an optical drive?
 
2012-10-25 02:41:42 PM

MrSteve007: BullBearMS: Having the PC automatically manage what is stored where based on frequency of use instead of having the user do so manually is a superior solution, and I'm not quite sure why you're so butthurt that Apple did it first.

You mean like Readyboost - introduced in Vista? And how they implement SuperFetch technology, initially via readyboost and then in NAND enabled hard drives?

It's cute watching the reality distortion field in effect. Windows has been doing this for 3 generations now, caching and storing data on faster drives, based on usage patterns and performance boosts.


Exactly readyboost has been doing this for years.

http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-Desktop-Caching-SSD-SDSSDRC-032G-G26/dp / B008U3038I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1351190451&sr=8-1&keywords=sandisk+r eadycache

That drive and software suit is exactly what Apple is now doing.
 
2012-10-25 02:47:12 PM

BullBearMS: wildcardjack: Friction stir welding: AKA ultrasonic welding, two similar plastic surfaces

You went from zero to fail so quickly.

They use the process to join pieces of Aluminum together without an ugly weld.

Friction-stir welding (FSW) is a solid-state joining process (the metal is not melted) and is used when the original metal characteristics must remain unchanged as much as possible. It mechanically intermixes the two pieces of metal at the place of the join, then softens them so the metal can be fused using mechanical pressure, much like joining clay, dough, or plasticine. It is primarily used on aluminium, and most often on large pieces that cannot be easily heat-treated after welding to recover temper characteristics.

It was invented and experimentally proven at The Welding Institute UK in December 1991. TWI holds patents on the process


My company also holds patents on FSW. I wonder how long until Apple sues us.
 
2012-10-25 02:52:01 PM

BullBearMS: Having the PC automatically manage what is stored where based on frequency of use instead of having the user do so manually is a superior solution, and I'm not quite sure why you're so butthurt that Apple did it first.


No, I'm preemptively butthurt that I'll have to listen to people blather about how Apple was the first to think of hybrid drives, tiered storage, and probably SSDs in general. I'm fairly neutral on Apple itself outside of it's somewhat new-found love of litigation, but the fans drive me nuts.

And to be honest, this really isn't hugely useful. The intelligent block placement is done in hybrid drives already. Like you say, the difference is that with this configuration, you get the summed capacity rather than just the capacity of the HDD. It has the same performance boost as a drive with the SSD as a cache would have, but it has a performance loss when it decides it needs to move something back to the HDD side something because it can't simply delete it from the SSD, it has to actually do a copy. The gain from not keeping two copies of the file? 128GB of 3128GB - that's, what, a 4.1% gain in capacity?

Interesting question though, when the SSD fails (far before the HDD hardware will), you'll have a hard time predicting which files you'll lose. Say you install a large program and 99% of it ends up on the HDD and 1% of the SDD - SDD failure = no go. That's at the file level, what if it's done at the block level? Losing a header from a massive file would lovely too. And of course, when the SSD wears out... you won't be able to replace it yourself. I get what it's going for, but the more I think about it, the less of a good idea it seems like for PCs.
 
2012-10-25 02:52:13 PM

TNel: MrSteve007: BullBearMS: Having the PC automatically manage what is stored where based on frequency of use instead of having the user do so manually is a superior solution, and I'm not quite sure why you're so butthurt that Apple did it first.

You mean like Readyboost - introduced in Vista? And how they implement SuperFetch technology, initially via readyboost and then in NAND enabled hard drives?

It's cute watching the reality distortion field in effect. Windows has been doing this for 3 generations now, caching and storing data on faster drives, based on usage patterns and performance boosts.

Exactly readyboost has been doing this for years.

http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-Desktop-Caching-SSD-SDSSDRC-032G-G26/dp / B008U3038I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1351190451&sr=8-1&keywords=sandisk+r eadycache

That drive and software suit is exactly what Apple is now doing.


No. Not it isn't.

Let's try this again:

Apple's Fusion Drive does not appear to function like an SSD-backed disk cache, but rather seems more like a file-level implementation of a feature that has existed for some time in big enterprise disk arrays: automatic tiering.

Most big disk arrays have different types of storage-some slow spinning disk, some faster spinning disk, and some solid state storage-and some have the ability to monitor what data is being accessed the most and can automatically move that data to a faster tier of disk as needed. These features typically operate at the block level, below the files, and can be done on large or small chunks of data, depending on what's hot and what's not. Auto-tiering also includes the ability to take data that is no longer in demand, or no longer "hot" and demote it down off of fast disk and onto slower stuff. In this way, a file that doesn't get accessed very often might be stored on slow SATA disks, but if a hundred people need to open it repeatedly over a short period of time, it will get pulled up and kept on SSD until it's not needed anymore.

Based on Schiller's explanation, Fusion Drive sounds similar. In a caching solution, like Intel's, files live on the hard disk drive and are temporarily mirrored to the SSD cache as needed. In an enterprise auto-tiering situation, and with Fusion Drive, the data is actually moved from one tier to another, rather than only being temporarily cached there.
 
2012-10-25 02:56:59 PM

ProfessorOhki: And to be honest, this really isn't hugely useful.


Horseshiat.

Using a small amount of read cache was handy when Flash memory was expensive and unavailable in large capacities.

Now that Flash drives are orders of magnitude cheaper and large enough to hold the entire OS and a large chunk of program files as well, it's retarded to simply hold a copy of files on the disk instead of using the space on both.

Flash drives will only continue to grow in capacity. Why waste all that space?
 
2012-10-25 02:57:21 PM

BullBearMS: wildcardjack: Friction stir welding: AKA ultrasonic welding, two similar plastic surfaces

You went from zero to fail so quickly.

They use the process to join pieces of Aluminum together without an ugly weld.

Friction-stir welding (FSW) is a solid-state joining process (the metal is not melted) and is used when the original metal characteristics must remain unchanged as much as possible. It mechanically intermixes the two pieces of metal at the place of the join, then softens them so the metal can be fused using mechanical pressure, much like joining clay, dough, or plasticine. It is primarily used on aluminium, and most often on large pieces that cannot be easily heat-treated after welding to recover temper characteristics.

It was invented and experimentally proven at The Welding Institute UK in December 1991. TWI holds patents on the process


Yeah, FSW is not ultra sonic welding, which has been around for a long time.
 
2012-10-25 03:01:10 PM

BullBearMS:
Based on Schiller's explanation, Fusion Drive sounds similar. In a caching solution, like Intel's, files live on the hard disk drive and are temporarily mirrored to the SSD cache as needed. In an enterprise auto-tiering situation, and with Fusion Drive, the data is actually moved from one tier to another, rather than only being temporarily cached there.


So you're describing Windows SuperFetch - which came about 5-6 years ago in Vista - and has been improved as hardware OEM's started making hybrid or even dedicated SSD's to expand the size.

This sounds a lot like a 2-tier system:
SuperFetch does more than caching. Windows Vista runs a SuperFetch service that analyzes your application behavior and usage patterns, meaning that it tracks which applications you request the most. A good example would be your activity as you start the PC in the morning: You launch Outlook to fetch email, a messenger, a web browser and probably additional applications such as a development environment. If you do this repeatedly and ideally in the same order, SuperFetch will recognize this and then proactively populate these applications into all available main memory the next time you start the PC. You should only wait for a few minutes before you commence work to give the SuperFetch service the time to "superfetch" your applications.
 
2012-10-25 03:02:30 PM

ProfessorOhki: when the SSD fails (far before the HDD hardware will), you'll have a hard time predicting which files you'll lose


When an SSD "fails" due to wear you don't lose any files. The device just becomes read only. Are you claiming nobody should use an SSD now?

For someone who claims to not be butthurt, you sure are doing an excellent imitation.
 
2012-10-25 03:02:39 PM

red5ish: BullBearMS: wildcardjack: Friction stir welding: AKA ultrasonic welding, two similar plastic surfaces

You went from zero to fail so quickly.

They use the process to join pieces of Aluminum together without an ugly weld.

Friction-stir welding (FSW) is a solid-state joining process (the metal is not melted) and is used when the original metal characteristics must remain unchanged as much as possible. It mechanically intermixes the two pieces of metal at the place of the join, then softens them so the metal can be fused using mechanical pressure, much like joining clay, dough, or plasticine. It is primarily used on aluminium, and most often on large pieces that cannot be easily heat-treated after welding to recover temper characteristics.

It was invented and experimentally proven at The Welding Institute UK in December 1991. TWI holds patents on the process

Yeah, FSW is not ultra sonic welding, which has been around for a long time.


The cool thing about FSW is it's being used on Humvee weld joints to make them as blast resistant as an MRAP.
 
2012-10-25 03:03:54 PM

MrSteve007: BullBearMS:
Based on Schiller's explanation, Fusion Drive sounds similar. In a caching solution, like Intel's, files live on the hard disk drive and are temporarily mirrored to the SSD cache as needed. In an enterprise auto-tiering situation, and with Fusion Drive, the data is actually moved from one tier to another, rather than only being temporarily cached there.

So you're describing Windows SuperFetch - which came about 5-6 years ago in Vista - and has been improved as hardware OEM's started making hybrid or even dedicated SSD's to expand the size.

This sounds a lot like a 2-tier system:
SuperFetch does more than caching. Windows Vista runs a SuperFetch service that analyzes your application behavior and usage patterns, meaning that it tracks which applications you request the most. A good example would be your activity as you start the PC in the morning: You launch Outlook to fetch email, a messenger, a web browser and probably additional applications such as a development environment. If you do this repeatedly and ideally in the same order, SuperFetch will recognize this and then proactively populate these applications into all available main memory the next time you start the PC. You should only wait for a few minutes before you commence work to give the SuperFetch service the time to "superfetch" your applications.


No. This is RAM caching.
 
2012-10-25 03:07:06 PM

BullBearMS: No. This is RAM caching.


That's how it was originally designed, but as I said earlier, as hybrid drives & even dedicated readycache drives came about, the two-tiering capability of SuperFetch expanded from RAM and into drives.
 
2012-10-25 03:10:23 PM
Well it's no wonder kids in America are lagging so far behind the rest of the world. You have kids in China doing friction stir welding, and our kids can barely get the damn lid off the mayo jar.
 
2012-10-25 03:14:11 PM
"Plasma deposition - The new thinner iMac display is partly the result of plasma deposition - whatever that is. Even after reading the Wikipedia page on it I still don't know what this means. But who cares? It sounds cool! Count me - and others - in!"

Why exactly does the method used in fabricating computer chips make a difference?

I've done all the types of deposition in college... no big deal.
 
2012-10-25 03:14:51 PM

MrSteve007: BullBearMS: No. This is RAM caching.

That's how it was originally designed, but as I said earlier, as hybrid drives & even dedicated readycache drives came about, the two-tiering capability of SuperFetch expanded from RAM and into drives.


Holding a temporary copy of what is on the disk in a tiny cache is not the same thing as disk tiering which supports SSD's of any size and does not waste the rapidly growing space on modern SSD's.
 
2012-10-25 03:20:55 PM

FunkyBlue: I do get the fusion drive, people running VDI servers with SANs have been using this idea witha combination of SSD and SAS drives for years now. It's the next logical step, really. Your high usage files are migrated to the SSD portion while your lesser used files are moved to the SATA platters.


These have been widely available for PCs for years now...
 
2012-10-25 03:22:02 PM

mccallcl: Oh come on, so they talk about their manufacturing process in their ads. They probably spent millions retooling the factory floor and want to get some marketing value out of it. Everybody hates a show-off, I guess.


They just now retooled their factories for processes that have been in wide use for 40+ years? Ouch.
 
2012-10-25 03:22:13 PM

Bullseyed: "Plasma deposition - The new thinner iMac display is partly the result of plasma deposition - whatever that is. Even after reading the Wikipedia page on it I still don't know what this means. But who cares? It sounds cool! Count me - and others - in!"

Why exactly does the method used in fabricating computer chips make a difference?

I've done all the types of deposition in college... no big deal.


No, no, this isn't the kind of deposition with the lawyers... ;)

I'm wondering whether this "plasma deposition" is taking place in a vacuum. I hang around observatories and they use vacuum deposition (CVD? PECVD? PACVD?) to coat their mirrors.
 
2012-10-25 03:30:21 PM

MrSteve007: BullBearMS: Having the PC automatically manage what is stored where based on frequency of use instead of having the user do so manually is a superior solution, and I'm not quite sure why you're so butthurt that Apple did it first.

You mean like Readyboost - introduced in Vista? And how they implement SuperFetch technology, initially via readyboost and then in NAND enabled hard drives?

It's cute watching the reality distortion field in effect. Windows has been doing this for 3 generations now, caching and storing data on faster drives, based on usage patterns and performance boosts.


But hey, Apple makes it all show up as one drive instead of calling it a library file!
 
2012-10-25 03:31:27 PM

dbirchall: Bullseyed: "Plasma deposition - The new thinner iMac display is partly the result of plasma deposition - whatever that is. Even after reading the Wikipedia page on it I still don't know what this means. But who cares? It sounds cool! Count me - and others - in!"

Why exactly does the method used in fabricating computer chips make a difference?

I've done all the types of deposition in college... no big deal.

No, no, this isn't the kind of deposition with the lawyers... ;)

I'm wondering whether this "plasma deposition" is taking place in a vacuum. I hang around observatories and they use vacuum deposition (CVD? PECVD? PACVD?) to coat their mirrors.


In Apple's case, they are using using the process to apply a thin coating of an anti-reflective agent to the LCD panel..
 
2012-10-25 03:36:04 PM

Bullseyed: MrSteve007: BullBearMS: Having the PC automatically manage what is stored where based on frequency of use instead of having the user do so manually is a superior solution, and I'm not quite sure why you're so butthurt that Apple did it first.

You mean like Readyboost - introduced in Vista? And how they implement SuperFetch technology, initially via readyboost and then in NAND enabled hard drives?

It's cute watching the reality distortion field in effect. Windows has been doing this for 3 generations now, caching and storing data on faster drives, based on usage patterns and performance boosts.

But hey, Apple makes it all show up as one drive instead of calling it a library file!


This would be valid if Windows software could be installed so that frequently used program files lived on the SSD and seldom used program files lived on the spinning disk.

However, Windows can't work this way, even when you try to manually fool it using junction points.
 
2012-10-25 03:37:34 PM

BullBearMS: ProfessorOhki: when the SSD fails (far before the HDD hardware will), you'll have a hard time predicting which files you'll lose

When an SSD "fails" due to wear you don't lose any files. The device just becomes read only. Are you claiming nobody should use an SSD now?

For someone who claims to not be butthurt, you sure are doing an excellent imitation.


Hmm, good point. I'll assume they have some way of gracefully handling when 1 block out of 50 becomes unwritable. No, I'm claiming no one should use an SSD in a PC where it takes suction cups and a pair of Torx wrenches to replace it.

Meanwhile, over at other all-in-one PC manufacturers...
h10025.www1.hp.comh10025.www1.hp.com 

/There's 4 screws in the entire process
//Said process being nicely documented on their website
 
2012-10-25 03:49:33 PM

BullBearMS: Snip..


Thanks for linking to a rumor website that has no proof other than "I think this is how it works" would you be willing to eat crow if it comes out that it's the same as what we've been saying?
 
2012-10-25 03:54:37 PM

China White Tea: FSW is cool, but it's not like it's bleeding-edge fabrication technology or anything. It's decades old. The people jizzing their pants over "Kepler graphics" is the amusing part, IMO. They made that phrase up. Unlike "plasma deposition" and "friction stir welding" it does not have a preexisting meaning to provide context.


What about its rich Corinthian leather?
 
2012-10-25 04:17:42 PM

ProfessorOhki: Meanwhile, over at other all-in-one PC manufacturers...


If the average person was in the least bit willing to swap parts in and out of their PC, this would matter.

However, as anyone who has the basic skills needed to fix a computer can tell you, damn near everyone we know is unwilling to crack the case themselves.
 
2012-10-25 04:20:00 PM

BullBearMS: This would be valid if Windows software could be installed so that frequently used program files lived on the SSD and seldom used program files lived on the spinning disk.

However, Windows can't work this way, even when you try to manually fool it using junction points.


I love how you keep moving goalposts:

I link to details of how Windows had this first. You claim it's totally different, and the Apple solution is a 2-tier system.

I post a link to how the Windows system is a 2-tier system. You claim it's a RAM based solution.

I post links to hard drives and 32 GB SSD SuperCache integration that keeps programs out of the RAM and spinning disks (even after power is removed from the PC). You claim Holding a temporary copy of what is on the disk in a tiny cache is not the same thing as disk tiering which supports SSD's of any size and does not waste the rapidly growing space on modern SSD's. 32 gig is tiny?

Now you're making shiat up like "Windows software could be installed so that frequently used program files lived on the SSD and seldom used program files lived on the spinning disk." When no such details are even out about the Apple system doing this.

Face it. Windows had the ability to use solid state storage to supplement faster booting and loading of frequently use software and files half a decade before OSX. This is Apple giving a fancy name to a concept that's been around for years to the rest of the world. At best, you're grasping at straws - but more likely just taking Apple's PR bait hook-line-and-sinker.
 
2012-10-25 04:22:53 PM

ProfessorOhki: Hmm, good point. I'll assume they have some way of gracefully handling when 1 block out of 50 becomes unwritable. No, I'm claiming no one should use an SSD in a PC where it takes suction cups and a pair of Torx wrenches to replace it.

Meanwhile, over at other all-in-one PC manufacturers...


The difference is that no other manufacturer can get away with it. Lenovo know that if they started welding shut their hard drive or memory bays on Thinkpads that every business purchaser would give them the finger.

Personally, I still like towers and don't really see much benefit in all-in-ones. They're like TV/VCR sets
 
2012-10-25 04:26:46 PM

BullBearMS: When an SSD "fails" due to wear you don't lose any files. The device just becomes read only. Are you claiming nobody should use an SSD now?.


Now that's just funny. Tell that to the two Toshiba 128GB SSD drives that I have sitting on my desk, that failed within 2 months of each other. They're deader than a doornail. On different machines, the users went to start their laptops and were greeted with a "NO OS FOUND" BIOS error. Even when pulled from the machines and used in an external enclosure, they don't even show up as formattable space.

I can assure you, when an SSD fails, there's zero reading from the device.
 
2012-10-25 04:33:13 PM

BullBearMS: wildcardjack: Friction stir welding: AKA ultrasonic welding, two similar plastic surfaces

You went from zero to fail so quickly.

They use the process to join pieces of Aluminum together without an ugly weld.

Friction-stir welding (FSW) is a solid-state joining process (the metal is not melted) and is used when the original metal characteristics must remain unchanged as much as possible. It mechanically intermixes the two pieces of metal at the place of the join, then softens them so the metal can be fused using mechanical pressure, much like joining clay, dough, or plasticine. It is primarily used on aluminium, and most often on large pieces that cannot be easily heat-treated after welding to recover temper characteristics.

It was invented and experimentally proven at The Welding Institute UK in December 1991. TWI holds patents on the process



Sounds like the principles are the same as sonic welding, just the implementation and material are different.
 
2012-10-25 04:44:09 PM

MrSteve007: BullBearMS: When an SSD "fails" due to wear you don't lose any files. The device just becomes read only. Are you claiming nobody should use an SSD now?.

Now that's just funny. Tell that to the two Toshiba 128GB SSD drives that I have sitting on my desk, that failed within 2 months of each other. They're deader than a doornail. On different machines, the users went to start their laptops and were greeted with a "NO OS FOUND" BIOS error. Even when pulled from the machines and used in an external enclosure, they don't even show up as formattable space.

I can assure you, when an SSD fails, there's zero reading from the device.


You know how I know you don't understand what "due to wear" means?
 
2012-10-25 04:48:01 PM

MrSteve007: BullBearMS: This would be valid if Windows software could be installed so that frequently used program files lived on the SSD and seldom used program files lived on the spinning disk.

However, Windows can't work this way, even when you try to manually fool it using junction points.

I love how you keep moving goalposts:

I link to details of how Windows had this first. You claim it's totally different, and the Apple solution is a 2-tier system.

I post a link to how the Windows system is a 2-tier system. You claim it's a RAM based solution.

I post links to hard drives and 32 GB SSD SuperCache integration that keeps programs out of the RAM and spinning disks (even after power is removed from the PC). You claim Holding a temporary copy of what is on the disk in a tiny cache is not the same thing as disk tiering which supports SSD's of any size and does not waste the rapidly growing space on modern SSD's. 32 gig is tiny?

Now you're making shiat up like "Windows software could be installed so that frequently used program files lived on the SSD and seldom used program files lived on the spinning disk." When no such details are even out about the Apple system doing this.

Face it. Windows had the ability to use solid state storage to supplement faster booting and loading of frequently use software and files half a decade before OSX. This is Apple giving a fancy name to a concept that's been around for years to the rest of the world. At best, you're grasping at straws - but more likely just taking Apple's PR bait hook-line-and-sinker.


At least you consistently fail to understand how either the Mac or PC work.
 
2012-10-25 04:48:12 PM

Marine1: I farking hate their press junkets.

That being said, how do you have a workstation-grade computer without an optical drive?


I think this raises the question of how often optical drives are being used anymore. Software can be easily be distributed over the internet these days, and people can buy music on iTunes and other services instead of ripping CDs. For removable storage, the iMacs have had SD memory card slots for a while now. Those things have their advantages - no moving parts, and the cards are fairly cheap, offer plenty of storage space, and aren't as fragile (DVDs are easily scratched). Then again, damaged SD cards can't be used as beer coasters.

This move is gonna get the same reaction as when the first iMac came out with no floppy drive: people will criticize it, and then they'll get over it. The Apple store sells optical drives for about 80 bucks, which means they've gotta be cheaper elsewhere. People can buy them if they need them. I'm guessing, however, that the format has started to wane in popularity enough that several manufacturers have already considered omitting the drives from consumer oriented computers. As with the floppy, Apple has had the guts to take the first step here.
 
2012-10-25 04:49:06 PM

ProfessorOhki: BullBearMS: Having the PC automatically manage what is stored where based on frequency of use instead of having the user do so manually is a superior solution, and I'm not quite sure why you're so butthurt that Apple did it first.

No, I'm preemptively butthurt that I'll have to listen to people blather about how Apple was the first to think of hybrid drives, tiered storage, and probably SSDs in general.


It's preemptive because no one is claiming that Apple was the first to think of such things.

I'm fairly neutral on Apple itself outside of it's somewhat new-found love of litigation, but the fans drive me nuts.

The non-existent fans that you're preemptively butthurt about?
Frankly, I think it's a bit more nuts that you're that upset about a strawman argument that you built yourself.
 
2012-10-25 04:54:10 PM

BullBearMS: You know how I know you don't understand what "due to wear" means?


Hunh, care to pontificate how two identical SSD's, bought in two identical laptops at the same time, and given to two different users, ended up failing at approximately the same time.

Both users spilled water in them? They were both dropped in the same month?

I understand that the NAND can fail from read/writes, but keep in mind that controllers can also fail from usage - and when they do, the drive is dead as dead can be.
 
2012-10-25 04:55:58 PM

Slaves2Darkness: Irony:
Apple products, made by the finest Chinese slave labor sold to asshole Americans who believe in Freedom fark YEAH!


Microsoft products are made by Foxconn too; just about anything you buy in America is made in China.

Keep on derping though...
 
2012-10-25 06:12:21 PM

MrSteve007: You mean like Readyboost - introduced in Vista? And how they implement SuperFetch technology, initially via readyboost and then in NAND enabled hard drives?


Those sound like OS kernel features.

I thought modern hybrid drives mount as a single logical unit of storage, and microcode in the drive controller itself determines whether the data is physically located in NAND, on magnetic disk, or both.
 
2012-10-25 06:17:52 PM

ProfessorOhki: when the SSD fails (far before the HDD hardware will)


Last time I checked, the MTBF figures for contemporary SSD drives and contemporary magnetic drives were just about at parity (~10,000 hours for the models I looked at).

I'm sure you have an anecdote which you believe disproves the claims, though.
 
2012-10-25 07:14:44 PM

poot_rootbeer: ProfessorOhki: when the SSD fails (far before the HDD hardware will)

Last time I checked, the MTBF figures for contemporary SSD drives and contemporary magnetic drives were just about at parity (~10,000 hours for the models I looked at).

I'm sure you have an anecdote which you believe disproves the claims, though.


It depends on the usage, but yes, I do have. Moron AV program decompressed a large archive, ran out of space, deleted the decompressed files, retried. Guess what happened to the SSD? But, yeah, in practice, you're probably right. These machines will be replaced every other year when one comes out in a new color, so the odds of the drives failing are pretty low.

Theaetetus: The non-existent fans that you're preemptively butthurt about?
Frankly, I think it's a bit more nuts that you're that upset about a strawman argument that you built yourself.


Sounds like you're butthurt over my butthurt over my strawman.

/If we keep this up, maybe we can beat BullBearMS for overuse of the phrase.
 
2012-10-25 08:15:51 PM

BullBearMS: MrSteve007: BullBearMS: No. This is RAM caching.

That's how it was originally designed, but as I said earlier, as hybrid drives & even dedicated readycache drives came about, the two-tiering capability of SuperFetch expanded from RAM and into drives.

Holding a temporary copy of what is on the disk in a tiny cache is not the same thing as disk tiering which supports SSD's of any size and does not waste the rapidly growing space on modern SSD's.


These two words are why it should be easy to swap out a drive. If you are going to implement disk tiering then you really should design for easily increasing the size of your drives. Very poor design if you cannot.
 
2012-10-25 09:03:57 PM
there is some serious, frothing , passionate defensive arguing over a multi-billion dollar company that will never give a damn no matter how much you white knight their skewed marketing that is passed off as innovation.

/yeah i know, i commented too
//but seriously, a day's worth of arguing about it?
 
2012-10-26 12:15:58 AM
If you're looking up from your computer and wondering what happened to the time, I think you'll benefit from my story. I'm so glad I've learned not to participate in conversations like this. Honestly just abstain. You'll make the world a better place both subjectively and objectively. (Unless you think a world where idiots sit and yell at each other over minutia with no intention of changing their mind is a great place)

Honestly, join me. Your head will be so much clearer and you can even look at these sorts of "issues" without picking sides and getting sucked in. Hell you might actually form novel opinions subject to change. You might even think of "ideas" or contemplate things that actually matter!

/this message was sent from my neo geo.
 
2012-10-26 06:29:00 AM
Apple needs a Pause | Break button. How can all these Apple fanboys possibly compute without a Pause | Break button? Look at them...standing in line without a trace of social anxiety or irritable bowel syndrome...I'll take my Pause | Break button.

On a side note, IE's text editor drives me nuts. Why can't I select a freaking range of text and not have it jump around to match word boundaries?
 
2012-10-26 03:59:06 PM

Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: Why can't I select a freaking range of text and not have it jump around to match word boundaries?


I really want to be able to select text on a character by character basis. I HATE when some programmer will not let me do the thing I want because the bloatware is so full of `features` that it doesn`t funtion properly...
 
2012-10-26 07:04:09 PM

dready zim: I HATE when some programmer will not let me do the thing I want because the bloatware is so full of `features` that it doesn`t funtion properly...


user-like typing detected
 
2012-10-26 07:49:13 PM

dready zim: Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: Why can't I select a freaking range of text and not have it jump around to match word boundaries?

I really want to be able to select text on a character by character basis. I HATE when some programmer will not let me do the thing I want because the bloatware is so full of `features` that it doesn`t funtion properly...


That's only in the expanding direction. Click where you want to start, drag the opposite direction you want to select, then back over your original selection point, then to the word boundary just beyond where you want to select, and then finally, back into the selection on a character-by-character basis.

It matches to word boundaries because "I cut of part of the link" is more common than "I want the middle of this word."

/but seriously, it took like 30 seconds to figure out the behavior
 
2012-10-26 07:52:07 PM

ProfessorOhki: dready zim: Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: Why can't I select a freaking range of text and not have it jump around to match word boundaries?

I really want to be able to select text on a character by character basis. I HATE when some programmer will not let me do the thing I want because the bloatware is so full of `features` that it doesn`t funtion properly...

That's only in the expanding direction. Click where you want to start, drag into your selection, then drag the opposite direction you want to select just a few pixels, then back over your original selection point, then to the word boundary just beyond where you want to select, and then finally, back into the selection on a character-by-character basis.

It matches to word boundaries because "I cut of part of the link" is more common than "I want the middle of this word."

/but seriously, it took like 45 seconds to figure out the behavior


FTFM
 
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