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(IT World)   Apple's redesigned iMac made using friction-stir welding and plasma deposition; may also include a flux capacitor   (itworld.com) divider line 91
    More: Interesting, flux capacitors, iMac, plasma, friction, deposits, stir welding  
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3375 clicks; posted to Geek » on 25 Oct 2012 at 11:53 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-25 02:56:59 PM

ProfessorOhki: And to be honest, this really isn't hugely useful.


Horseshiat.

Using a small amount of read cache was handy when Flash memory was expensive and unavailable in large capacities.

Now that Flash drives are orders of magnitude cheaper and large enough to hold the entire OS and a large chunk of program files as well, it's retarded to simply hold a copy of files on the disk instead of using the space on both.

Flash drives will only continue to grow in capacity. Why waste all that space?
 
2012-10-25 02:57:21 PM

BullBearMS: wildcardjack: Friction stir welding: AKA ultrasonic welding, two similar plastic surfaces

You went from zero to fail so quickly.

They use the process to join pieces of Aluminum together without an ugly weld.

Friction-stir welding (FSW) is a solid-state joining process (the metal is not melted) and is used when the original metal characteristics must remain unchanged as much as possible. It mechanically intermixes the two pieces of metal at the place of the join, then softens them so the metal can be fused using mechanical pressure, much like joining clay, dough, or plasticine. It is primarily used on aluminium, and most often on large pieces that cannot be easily heat-treated after welding to recover temper characteristics.

It was invented and experimentally proven at The Welding Institute UK in December 1991. TWI holds patents on the process


Yeah, FSW is not ultra sonic welding, which has been around for a long time.
 
2012-10-25 03:01:10 PM

BullBearMS:
Based on Schiller's explanation, Fusion Drive sounds similar. In a caching solution, like Intel's, files live on the hard disk drive and are temporarily mirrored to the SSD cache as needed. In an enterprise auto-tiering situation, and with Fusion Drive, the data is actually moved from one tier to another, rather than only being temporarily cached there.


So you're describing Windows SuperFetch - which came about 5-6 years ago in Vista - and has been improved as hardware OEM's started making hybrid or even dedicated SSD's to expand the size.

This sounds a lot like a 2-tier system:
SuperFetch does more than caching. Windows Vista runs a SuperFetch service that analyzes your application behavior and usage patterns, meaning that it tracks which applications you request the most. A good example would be your activity as you start the PC in the morning: You launch Outlook to fetch email, a messenger, a web browser and probably additional applications such as a development environment. If you do this repeatedly and ideally in the same order, SuperFetch will recognize this and then proactively populate these applications into all available main memory the next time you start the PC. You should only wait for a few minutes before you commence work to give the SuperFetch service the time to "superfetch" your applications.
 
2012-10-25 03:02:30 PM

ProfessorOhki: when the SSD fails (far before the HDD hardware will), you'll have a hard time predicting which files you'll lose


When an SSD "fails" due to wear you don't lose any files. The device just becomes read only. Are you claiming nobody should use an SSD now?

For someone who claims to not be butthurt, you sure are doing an excellent imitation.
 
2012-10-25 03:02:39 PM

red5ish: BullBearMS: wildcardjack: Friction stir welding: AKA ultrasonic welding, two similar plastic surfaces

You went from zero to fail so quickly.

They use the process to join pieces of Aluminum together without an ugly weld.

Friction-stir welding (FSW) is a solid-state joining process (the metal is not melted) and is used when the original metal characteristics must remain unchanged as much as possible. It mechanically intermixes the two pieces of metal at the place of the join, then softens them so the metal can be fused using mechanical pressure, much like joining clay, dough, or plasticine. It is primarily used on aluminium, and most often on large pieces that cannot be easily heat-treated after welding to recover temper characteristics.

It was invented and experimentally proven at The Welding Institute UK in December 1991. TWI holds patents on the process

Yeah, FSW is not ultra sonic welding, which has been around for a long time.


The cool thing about FSW is it's being used on Humvee weld joints to make them as blast resistant as an MRAP.
 
2012-10-25 03:03:54 PM

MrSteve007: BullBearMS:
Based on Schiller's explanation, Fusion Drive sounds similar. In a caching solution, like Intel's, files live on the hard disk drive and are temporarily mirrored to the SSD cache as needed. In an enterprise auto-tiering situation, and with Fusion Drive, the data is actually moved from one tier to another, rather than only being temporarily cached there.

So you're describing Windows SuperFetch - which came about 5-6 years ago in Vista - and has been improved as hardware OEM's started making hybrid or even dedicated SSD's to expand the size.

This sounds a lot like a 2-tier system:
SuperFetch does more than caching. Windows Vista runs a SuperFetch service that analyzes your application behavior and usage patterns, meaning that it tracks which applications you request the most. A good example would be your activity as you start the PC in the morning: You launch Outlook to fetch email, a messenger, a web browser and probably additional applications such as a development environment. If you do this repeatedly and ideally in the same order, SuperFetch will recognize this and then proactively populate these applications into all available main memory the next time you start the PC. You should only wait for a few minutes before you commence work to give the SuperFetch service the time to "superfetch" your applications.


No. This is RAM caching.
 
2012-10-25 03:07:06 PM

BullBearMS: No. This is RAM caching.


That's how it was originally designed, but as I said earlier, as hybrid drives & even dedicated readycache drives came about, the two-tiering capability of SuperFetch expanded from RAM and into drives.
 
2012-10-25 03:10:23 PM
Well it's no wonder kids in America are lagging so far behind the rest of the world. You have kids in China doing friction stir welding, and our kids can barely get the damn lid off the mayo jar.
 
2012-10-25 03:14:11 PM
"Plasma deposition - The new thinner iMac display is partly the result of plasma deposition - whatever that is. Even after reading the Wikipedia page on it I still don't know what this means. But who cares? It sounds cool! Count me - and others - in!"

Why exactly does the method used in fabricating computer chips make a difference?

I've done all the types of deposition in college... no big deal.
 
2012-10-25 03:14:51 PM

MrSteve007: BullBearMS: No. This is RAM caching.

That's how it was originally designed, but as I said earlier, as hybrid drives & even dedicated readycache drives came about, the two-tiering capability of SuperFetch expanded from RAM and into drives.


Holding a temporary copy of what is on the disk in a tiny cache is not the same thing as disk tiering which supports SSD's of any size and does not waste the rapidly growing space on modern SSD's.
 
2012-10-25 03:20:55 PM

FunkyBlue: I do get the fusion drive, people running VDI servers with SANs have been using this idea witha combination of SSD and SAS drives for years now. It's the next logical step, really. Your high usage files are migrated to the SSD portion while your lesser used files are moved to the SATA platters.


These have been widely available for PCs for years now...
 
2012-10-25 03:22:02 PM

mccallcl: Oh come on, so they talk about their manufacturing process in their ads. They probably spent millions retooling the factory floor and want to get some marketing value out of it. Everybody hates a show-off, I guess.


They just now retooled their factories for processes that have been in wide use for 40+ years? Ouch.
 
2012-10-25 03:22:13 PM

Bullseyed: "Plasma deposition - The new thinner iMac display is partly the result of plasma deposition - whatever that is. Even after reading the Wikipedia page on it I still don't know what this means. But who cares? It sounds cool! Count me - and others - in!"

Why exactly does the method used in fabricating computer chips make a difference?

I've done all the types of deposition in college... no big deal.


No, no, this isn't the kind of deposition with the lawyers... ;)

I'm wondering whether this "plasma deposition" is taking place in a vacuum. I hang around observatories and they use vacuum deposition (CVD? PECVD? PACVD?) to coat their mirrors.
 
2012-10-25 03:30:21 PM

MrSteve007: BullBearMS: Having the PC automatically manage what is stored where based on frequency of use instead of having the user do so manually is a superior solution, and I'm not quite sure why you're so butthurt that Apple did it first.

You mean like Readyboost - introduced in Vista? And how they implement SuperFetch technology, initially via readyboost and then in NAND enabled hard drives?

It's cute watching the reality distortion field in effect. Windows has been doing this for 3 generations now, caching and storing data on faster drives, based on usage patterns and performance boosts.


But hey, Apple makes it all show up as one drive instead of calling it a library file!
 
2012-10-25 03:31:27 PM

dbirchall: Bullseyed: "Plasma deposition - The new thinner iMac display is partly the result of plasma deposition - whatever that is. Even after reading the Wikipedia page on it I still don't know what this means. But who cares? It sounds cool! Count me - and others - in!"

Why exactly does the method used in fabricating computer chips make a difference?

I've done all the types of deposition in college... no big deal.

No, no, this isn't the kind of deposition with the lawyers... ;)

I'm wondering whether this "plasma deposition" is taking place in a vacuum. I hang around observatories and they use vacuum deposition (CVD? PECVD? PACVD?) to coat their mirrors.


In Apple's case, they are using using the process to apply a thin coating of an anti-reflective agent to the LCD panel..
 
2012-10-25 03:36:04 PM

Bullseyed: MrSteve007: BullBearMS: Having the PC automatically manage what is stored where based on frequency of use instead of having the user do so manually is a superior solution, and I'm not quite sure why you're so butthurt that Apple did it first.

You mean like Readyboost - introduced in Vista? And how they implement SuperFetch technology, initially via readyboost and then in NAND enabled hard drives?

It's cute watching the reality distortion field in effect. Windows has been doing this for 3 generations now, caching and storing data on faster drives, based on usage patterns and performance boosts.

But hey, Apple makes it all show up as one drive instead of calling it a library file!


This would be valid if Windows software could be installed so that frequently used program files lived on the SSD and seldom used program files lived on the spinning disk.

However, Windows can't work this way, even when you try to manually fool it using junction points.
 
2012-10-25 03:37:34 PM

BullBearMS: ProfessorOhki: when the SSD fails (far before the HDD hardware will), you'll have a hard time predicting which files you'll lose

When an SSD "fails" due to wear you don't lose any files. The device just becomes read only. Are you claiming nobody should use an SSD now?

For someone who claims to not be butthurt, you sure are doing an excellent imitation.


Hmm, good point. I'll assume they have some way of gracefully handling when 1 block out of 50 becomes unwritable. No, I'm claiming no one should use an SSD in a PC where it takes suction cups and a pair of Torx wrenches to replace it.

Meanwhile, over at other all-in-one PC manufacturers...
h10025.www1.hp.comh10025.www1.hp.com 

/There's 4 screws in the entire process
//Said process being nicely documented on their website
 
2012-10-25 03:49:33 PM

BullBearMS: Snip..


Thanks for linking to a rumor website that has no proof other than "I think this is how it works" would you be willing to eat crow if it comes out that it's the same as what we've been saying?
 
2012-10-25 03:54:37 PM

China White Tea: FSW is cool, but it's not like it's bleeding-edge fabrication technology or anything. It's decades old. The people jizzing their pants over "Kepler graphics" is the amusing part, IMO. They made that phrase up. Unlike "plasma deposition" and "friction stir welding" it does not have a preexisting meaning to provide context.


What about its rich Corinthian leather?
 
2012-10-25 04:17:42 PM

ProfessorOhki: Meanwhile, over at other all-in-one PC manufacturers...


If the average person was in the least bit willing to swap parts in and out of their PC, this would matter.

However, as anyone who has the basic skills needed to fix a computer can tell you, damn near everyone we know is unwilling to crack the case themselves.
 
2012-10-25 04:20:00 PM

BullBearMS: This would be valid if Windows software could be installed so that frequently used program files lived on the SSD and seldom used program files lived on the spinning disk.

However, Windows can't work this way, even when you try to manually fool it using junction points.


I love how you keep moving goalposts:

I link to details of how Windows had this first. You claim it's totally different, and the Apple solution is a 2-tier system.

I post a link to how the Windows system is a 2-tier system. You claim it's a RAM based solution.

I post links to hard drives and 32 GB SSD SuperCache integration that keeps programs out of the RAM and spinning disks (even after power is removed from the PC). You claim Holding a temporary copy of what is on the disk in a tiny cache is not the same thing as disk tiering which supports SSD's of any size and does not waste the rapidly growing space on modern SSD's. 32 gig is tiny?

Now you're making shiat up like "Windows software could be installed so that frequently used program files lived on the SSD and seldom used program files lived on the spinning disk." When no such details are even out about the Apple system doing this.

Face it. Windows had the ability to use solid state storage to supplement faster booting and loading of frequently use software and files half a decade before OSX. This is Apple giving a fancy name to a concept that's been around for years to the rest of the world. At best, you're grasping at straws - but more likely just taking Apple's PR bait hook-line-and-sinker.
 
2012-10-25 04:22:53 PM

ProfessorOhki: Hmm, good point. I'll assume they have some way of gracefully handling when 1 block out of 50 becomes unwritable. No, I'm claiming no one should use an SSD in a PC where it takes suction cups and a pair of Torx wrenches to replace it.

Meanwhile, over at other all-in-one PC manufacturers...


The difference is that no other manufacturer can get away with it. Lenovo know that if they started welding shut their hard drive or memory bays on Thinkpads that every business purchaser would give them the finger.

Personally, I still like towers and don't really see much benefit in all-in-ones. They're like TV/VCR sets
 
2012-10-25 04:26:46 PM

BullBearMS: When an SSD "fails" due to wear you don't lose any files. The device just becomes read only. Are you claiming nobody should use an SSD now?.


Now that's just funny. Tell that to the two Toshiba 128GB SSD drives that I have sitting on my desk, that failed within 2 months of each other. They're deader than a doornail. On different machines, the users went to start their laptops and were greeted with a "NO OS FOUND" BIOS error. Even when pulled from the machines and used in an external enclosure, they don't even show up as formattable space.

I can assure you, when an SSD fails, there's zero reading from the device.
 
2012-10-25 04:33:13 PM

BullBearMS: wildcardjack: Friction stir welding: AKA ultrasonic welding, two similar plastic surfaces

You went from zero to fail so quickly.

They use the process to join pieces of Aluminum together without an ugly weld.

Friction-stir welding (FSW) is a solid-state joining process (the metal is not melted) and is used when the original metal characteristics must remain unchanged as much as possible. It mechanically intermixes the two pieces of metal at the place of the join, then softens them so the metal can be fused using mechanical pressure, much like joining clay, dough, or plasticine. It is primarily used on aluminium, and most often on large pieces that cannot be easily heat-treated after welding to recover temper characteristics.

It was invented and experimentally proven at The Welding Institute UK in December 1991. TWI holds patents on the process



Sounds like the principles are the same as sonic welding, just the implementation and material are different.
 
2012-10-25 04:44:09 PM

MrSteve007: BullBearMS: When an SSD "fails" due to wear you don't lose any files. The device just becomes read only. Are you claiming nobody should use an SSD now?.

Now that's just funny. Tell that to the two Toshiba 128GB SSD drives that I have sitting on my desk, that failed within 2 months of each other. They're deader than a doornail. On different machines, the users went to start their laptops and were greeted with a "NO OS FOUND" BIOS error. Even when pulled from the machines and used in an external enclosure, they don't even show up as formattable space.

I can assure you, when an SSD fails, there's zero reading from the device.


You know how I know you don't understand what "due to wear" means?
 
2012-10-25 04:48:01 PM

MrSteve007: BullBearMS: This would be valid if Windows software could be installed so that frequently used program files lived on the SSD and seldom used program files lived on the spinning disk.

However, Windows can't work this way, even when you try to manually fool it using junction points.

I love how you keep moving goalposts:

I link to details of how Windows had this first. You claim it's totally different, and the Apple solution is a 2-tier system.

I post a link to how the Windows system is a 2-tier system. You claim it's a RAM based solution.

I post links to hard drives and 32 GB SSD SuperCache integration that keeps programs out of the RAM and spinning disks (even after power is removed from the PC). You claim Holding a temporary copy of what is on the disk in a tiny cache is not the same thing as disk tiering which supports SSD's of any size and does not waste the rapidly growing space on modern SSD's. 32 gig is tiny?

Now you're making shiat up like "Windows software could be installed so that frequently used program files lived on the SSD and seldom used program files lived on the spinning disk." When no such details are even out about the Apple system doing this.

Face it. Windows had the ability to use solid state storage to supplement faster booting and loading of frequently use software and files half a decade before OSX. This is Apple giving a fancy name to a concept that's been around for years to the rest of the world. At best, you're grasping at straws - but more likely just taking Apple's PR bait hook-line-and-sinker.


At least you consistently fail to understand how either the Mac or PC work.
 
2012-10-25 04:48:12 PM

Marine1: I farking hate their press junkets.

That being said, how do you have a workstation-grade computer without an optical drive?


I think this raises the question of how often optical drives are being used anymore. Software can be easily be distributed over the internet these days, and people can buy music on iTunes and other services instead of ripping CDs. For removable storage, the iMacs have had SD memory card slots for a while now. Those things have their advantages - no moving parts, and the cards are fairly cheap, offer plenty of storage space, and aren't as fragile (DVDs are easily scratched). Then again, damaged SD cards can't be used as beer coasters.

This move is gonna get the same reaction as when the first iMac came out with no floppy drive: people will criticize it, and then they'll get over it. The Apple store sells optical drives for about 80 bucks, which means they've gotta be cheaper elsewhere. People can buy them if they need them. I'm guessing, however, that the format has started to wane in popularity enough that several manufacturers have already considered omitting the drives from consumer oriented computers. As with the floppy, Apple has had the guts to take the first step here.
 
2012-10-25 04:49:06 PM

ProfessorOhki: BullBearMS: Having the PC automatically manage what is stored where based on frequency of use instead of having the user do so manually is a superior solution, and I'm not quite sure why you're so butthurt that Apple did it first.

No, I'm preemptively butthurt that I'll have to listen to people blather about how Apple was the first to think of hybrid drives, tiered storage, and probably SSDs in general.


It's preemptive because no one is claiming that Apple was the first to think of such things.

I'm fairly neutral on Apple itself outside of it's somewhat new-found love of litigation, but the fans drive me nuts.

The non-existent fans that you're preemptively butthurt about?
Frankly, I think it's a bit more nuts that you're that upset about a strawman argument that you built yourself.
 
2012-10-25 04:54:10 PM

BullBearMS: You know how I know you don't understand what "due to wear" means?


Hunh, care to pontificate how two identical SSD's, bought in two identical laptops at the same time, and given to two different users, ended up failing at approximately the same time.

Both users spilled water in them? They were both dropped in the same month?

I understand that the NAND can fail from read/writes, but keep in mind that controllers can also fail from usage - and when they do, the drive is dead as dead can be.
 
2012-10-25 04:55:58 PM

Slaves2Darkness: Irony:
Apple products, made by the finest Chinese slave labor sold to asshole Americans who believe in Freedom fark YEAH!


Microsoft products are made by Foxconn too; just about anything you buy in America is made in China.

Keep on derping though...
 
2012-10-25 06:12:21 PM

MrSteve007: You mean like Readyboost - introduced in Vista? And how they implement SuperFetch technology, initially via readyboost and then in NAND enabled hard drives?


Those sound like OS kernel features.

I thought modern hybrid drives mount as a single logical unit of storage, and microcode in the drive controller itself determines whether the data is physically located in NAND, on magnetic disk, or both.
 
2012-10-25 06:17:52 PM

ProfessorOhki: when the SSD fails (far before the HDD hardware will)


Last time I checked, the MTBF figures for contemporary SSD drives and contemporary magnetic drives were just about at parity (~10,000 hours for the models I looked at).

I'm sure you have an anecdote which you believe disproves the claims, though.
 
2012-10-25 07:14:44 PM

poot_rootbeer: ProfessorOhki: when the SSD fails (far before the HDD hardware will)

Last time I checked, the MTBF figures for contemporary SSD drives and contemporary magnetic drives were just about at parity (~10,000 hours for the models I looked at).

I'm sure you have an anecdote which you believe disproves the claims, though.


It depends on the usage, but yes, I do have. Moron AV program decompressed a large archive, ran out of space, deleted the decompressed files, retried. Guess what happened to the SSD? But, yeah, in practice, you're probably right. These machines will be replaced every other year when one comes out in a new color, so the odds of the drives failing are pretty low.

Theaetetus: The non-existent fans that you're preemptively butthurt about?
Frankly, I think it's a bit more nuts that you're that upset about a strawman argument that you built yourself.


Sounds like you're butthurt over my butthurt over my strawman.

/If we keep this up, maybe we can beat BullBearMS for overuse of the phrase.
 
2012-10-25 08:15:51 PM

BullBearMS: MrSteve007: BullBearMS: No. This is RAM caching.

That's how it was originally designed, but as I said earlier, as hybrid drives & even dedicated readycache drives came about, the two-tiering capability of SuperFetch expanded from RAM and into drives.

Holding a temporary copy of what is on the disk in a tiny cache is not the same thing as disk tiering which supports SSD's of any size and does not waste the rapidly growing space on modern SSD's.


These two words are why it should be easy to swap out a drive. If you are going to implement disk tiering then you really should design for easily increasing the size of your drives. Very poor design if you cannot.
 
2012-10-25 09:03:57 PM
there is some serious, frothing , passionate defensive arguing over a multi-billion dollar company that will never give a damn no matter how much you white knight their skewed marketing that is passed off as innovation.

/yeah i know, i commented too
//but seriously, a day's worth of arguing about it?
 
2012-10-26 12:15:58 AM
If you're looking up from your computer and wondering what happened to the time, I think you'll benefit from my story. I'm so glad I've learned not to participate in conversations like this. Honestly just abstain. You'll make the world a better place both subjectively and objectively. (Unless you think a world where idiots sit and yell at each other over minutia with no intention of changing their mind is a great place)

Honestly, join me. Your head will be so much clearer and you can even look at these sorts of "issues" without picking sides and getting sucked in. Hell you might actually form novel opinions subject to change. You might even think of "ideas" or contemplate things that actually matter!

/this message was sent from my neo geo.
 
2012-10-26 06:29:00 AM
Apple needs a Pause | Break button. How can all these Apple fanboys possibly compute without a Pause | Break button? Look at them...standing in line without a trace of social anxiety or irritable bowel syndrome...I'll take my Pause | Break button.

On a side note, IE's text editor drives me nuts. Why can't I select a freaking range of text and not have it jump around to match word boundaries?
 
2012-10-26 03:59:06 PM

Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: Why can't I select a freaking range of text and not have it jump around to match word boundaries?


I really want to be able to select text on a character by character basis. I HATE when some programmer will not let me do the thing I want because the bloatware is so full of `features` that it doesn`t funtion properly...
 
2012-10-26 07:04:09 PM

dready zim: I HATE when some programmer will not let me do the thing I want because the bloatware is so full of `features` that it doesn`t funtion properly...


user-like typing detected
 
2012-10-26 07:49:13 PM

dready zim: Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: Why can't I select a freaking range of text and not have it jump around to match word boundaries?

I really want to be able to select text on a character by character basis. I HATE when some programmer will not let me do the thing I want because the bloatware is so full of `features` that it doesn`t funtion properly...


That's only in the expanding direction. Click where you want to start, drag the opposite direction you want to select, then back over your original selection point, then to the word boundary just beyond where you want to select, and then finally, back into the selection on a character-by-character basis.

It matches to word boundaries because "I cut of part of the link" is more common than "I want the middle of this word."

/but seriously, it took like 30 seconds to figure out the behavior
 
2012-10-26 07:52:07 PM

ProfessorOhki: dready zim: Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: Why can't I select a freaking range of text and not have it jump around to match word boundaries?

I really want to be able to select text on a character by character basis. I HATE when some programmer will not let me do the thing I want because the bloatware is so full of `features` that it doesn`t funtion properly...

That's only in the expanding direction. Click where you want to start, drag into your selection, then drag the opposite direction you want to select just a few pixels, then back over your original selection point, then to the word boundary just beyond where you want to select, and then finally, back into the selection on a character-by-character basis.

It matches to word boundaries because "I cut of part of the link" is more common than "I want the middle of this word."

/but seriously, it took like 45 seconds to figure out the behavior


FTFM
 
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