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(CNN)   Air Force discharges single mother for getting pregnant. Well, to be fair, fighter aircraft don't have baby seats   (cnn.com) divider line 283
    More: Obvious, USAF, single-parent, Catholic University, Catholic Faith, Marquette  
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10617 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Oct 2012 at 7:05 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-25 07:53:28 AM
FTA: That was the hardest part of all of this. Someone telling me to my face that had I gotten an abortion, then I would be eligible for service.

Yes, I'm sure that was horrible for you. The sheer nerve of someone telling you that if you were no longer going to have a kid that you wouldn't end up being penalized for having a kid. Reality must be a horrible burden for you.

I don't have a problem with her fighting against the ruling - if her extended family is able to provide support for the kid, why shouldn't she have the same ability to be an officer? But the railing against the abortion angle, as if she's somehow being penalized for not having one when it's her choice not to in the first place? Yeah, idiot. Not to mention the whole "premarital sex being against the Catholic faith" angle that's already been covered.
 
2012-10-25 07:53:31 AM

AnubisMan: hasty ambush: also against military personnel below the pay grad eof E-4 with less than four years service being allowed to marry

They get the immediate perk of getting to move out of the dorms/barracks, however they lose half of their stuff in the divorce a year or two later, kind of balances out.


My brother got married as soon as he was through Basic just for that perk, and he wound up getting divorced before his enlistment was over, so I am getting a kick out of your reply. She cheated on him, however, so he got to keep most of his stuff. He did lose the dogs, though, which kind of sucked.
 
2012-10-25 07:55:59 AM
There are these things called CONDOMS and BIRTH CONTROL PILLS. But no, that's too tough to deal with.

RTFC (Read The farking Contract) NEXT TIME!!
 
2012-10-25 07:57:35 AM
Where are her pictures? How can we form an opinion if we can't see how hot she is?
 
2012-10-25 07:58:16 AM

Fark It: But they were wrong. Citing a contract she signed in 2007 when she enrolled in ROTC at age 18, the Air Force said she committed a fraud by not reporting a change in her medical condition, as indicated in the contract.

Read. Your. farking. Contract.

Is the policy fair to single parents? No. Is it fair to their children and the U.S. taxpayer? Yes.


Characterizing a failure to report some change in circumstances as agreed upon in a buried clause in a boiler plate contract signed by a woman five years ago when she was a teenager as "a fraud" is itself something close to a fraud. Fraud requires an intentional deceit, and it's not a word that should be thrown around lightly.
 
182
2012-10-25 07:58:35 AM

Fark It: But they were wrong. Citing a contract she signed in 2007 when she enrolled in ROTC at age 18, the Air Force said she committed a fraud by not reporting a change in her medical condition, as indicated in the contract.

Read. Your. farking. Contract.

Is the policy fair to single parents? No. Is it fair to their children and the U.S. taxpayer? Yes.


it's also fair to the child. no sense in tempting making orphans.
 
2012-10-25 07:59:21 AM

Chief_ Danz153A


Like others mentioned above, in the Army you are required to have this Family Care Plan, which can be complete BS, but is an officiating document that pretty much says "this person can take care of your kid(s). I wasn't aware that the Air Force was a Judeo-Christian organization requiring marriage.


Who said marriage is required?

The point behind the marriage statement in TFA is that if she were married her spouse would be legally on the hook to care for the child, rather than having a verbal agreement with someone else to be a caretaker (grandparent, sibling, what have you) in case of deployment.
 
2012-10-25 08:00:34 AM
Too irresponsible to plan a pregnancy?

Too irresponsible to be in the air force.
 
2012-10-25 08:05:36 AM

hasty ambush: Service memebers who get preganant should be discharged with loss of all VA benefits. Motherhood and the military profession are not compatible. If you try to do both either the kids or the service gets short changed, usually both


Well, except if they're imprisoned at the time, or raped.

but mind you ... only 'legitimate rape' which , as we all know, doesn't lead to pregnancy.
 
2012-10-25 08:05:50 AM

sodomizer: Too irresponsible to plan a pregnancy?

Too irresponsible to be in the air force.or be a parent


FTFY
 
2012-10-25 08:06:20 AM

Oblio13: Spent 21 years in the Marines. A huge percentage of our woman Marines used to get pregnant either right before or during deployments. So a unit trains together like it should, then rotates overseas with brand new replacements to fill the holes. Now that I'm out I can say it: very, very few women pull their weight in the military.


My mom spent 24 years in the military, retired as a sgt. maj. She deployed around the world. She was an outstanding soldier and she joined as a single mother. I deplored to saudi and kosovo with female soldiers and pilots. Not one of them had their tours shortened for pregnancy. We did lose a few men to "stress" though. Just because youre a misogynistic douche doesn't mean reality reflects your "he man woman hater's club" mentality.

As far as the article goes, this woman is dishonest. She attempted to defraud the american people and manipulate the air force, now that she is being revealed for the morally bankrupt person she is, she is attempting to manipulate public opinion by turning a "you dishonestly violated a contract" situation into a "ZOMG the government wants to force me to have ABORTIONS". She has no honor, I hope she does jail time.
 
2012-10-25 08:06:30 AM
I wish the USA would just establish a decent welfare state--with maternity/paternity leave, subsidized child care, affordable university education, etc.--so that working class people wouldn't join the military thinking it's their only route to the public services that people in most industrialized countries take for granted.

The military should be a *last resort* employment option for single men who don't fit in anywhere else. It's not a damn social services agency or Junior Year Abroad program.
 
2012-10-25 08:07:19 AM
"That was before she says she learned the Air Force forbid single parents from enlisting. "

I sure it also has something to do with not wanting to have a bunch of orphans if mom or dad gets shot. Losing one parent is bad enough, I don't think the army wants to be seen as having killed a bunch of single moms.
 
2012-10-25 08:07:36 AM

indylaw


Characterizing a failure to report some change in circumstances as agreed upon in a buried clause in a boiler plate contract signed by a woman five years ago when she was a teenager as "a fraud" is itself something close to a fraud. Fraud requires an intentional deceit, and it's not a word that should be thrown around lightly.


1) The teenager person of age to execute a binding contract was happy enough to sign on the line when it meant she had a 4-year scholarship.

2) She's quoted in TFA as explicitly deciding not to disclose the change in status as required. Besides, it's an amazing coincidence that she happened to become unable to serve after she completed school and just before she was required to start fulfilling her obligation; I would be following up on the fraud angle, too.
 
2012-10-25 08:09:22 AM

Mad_Radhu: AnubisMan: hasty ambush: also against military personnel below the pay grad eof E-4 with less than four years service being allowed to marry

They get the immediate perk of getting to move out of the dorms/barracks, however they lose half of their stuff in the divorce a year or two later, kind of balances out.

My brother got married as soon as he was through Basic just for that perk, and he wound up getting divorced before his enlistment was over, so I am getting a kick out of your reply. She cheated on him, however, so he got to keep most of his stuff. He did lose the dogs, though, which kind of sucked.


A guy I was stationed with got married and divorced 3 times in 4 years, and each time he would just walk out to his truck and drive away and start over. He'd leave 'em with everything, said it was less hassle.
 
2012-10-25 08:09:53 AM

indylaw: Fark It: But they were wrong. Citing a contract she signed in 2007 when she enrolled in ROTC at age 18, the Air Force said she committed a fraud by not reporting a change in her medical condition, as indicated in the contract.

Read. Your. farking. Contract.

Is the policy fair to single parents? No. Is it fair to their children and the U.S. taxpayer? Yes.

Characterizing a failure to report some change in circumstances as agreed upon in a buried clause in a boiler plate contract signed by a woman five years ago when she was a teenager as "a fraud" is itself something close to a fraud. Fraud requires an intentional deceit, and it's not a word that should be thrown around lightly.


She was an adult when she signed the contract and it's made very clear that you need to report any change in medical condition to the proper authorities. Pregnancy is a big farking change in your medical condition. She knows exactly what she's doing, she's trolling the Air Force at the expense of the taxpayer.
 
2012-10-25 08:12:07 AM

Bender The Offender: Oblio13: Spent 21 years in the Marines. A huge percentage of our woman Marines used to get pregnant either right before or during deployments. So a unit trains together like it should, then rotates overseas with brand new replacements to fill the holes. Now that I'm out I can say it: very, very few women pull their weight in the military.

My mom spent 24 years in the military, retired as a sgt. maj. She deployed around the world. She was an outstanding soldier and she joined as a single mother. I deplored to saudi and kosovo with female soldiers and pilots. Not one of them had their tours shortened for pregnancy. We did lose a few men to "stress" though. Just because youre a misogynistic douche doesn't mean reality reflects your "he man woman hater's club" mentality.

As far as the article goes, this woman is dishonest. She attempted to defraud the american people and manipulate the air force, now that she is being revealed for the morally bankrupt person she is, she is attempting to manipulate public opinion by turning a "you dishonestly violated a contract" situation into a "ZOMG the government wants to force me to have ABORTIONS". She has no honor, I hope she does jail time.


"My personal anecdote is clearly more relevant then your personal anecdote!"
 
2012-10-25 08:13:36 AM
Everybody is ignoring the real stupidity here: paying $92 large for an undergraduate degree from a third-rate Jesuit school.
 
2012-10-25 08:14:08 AM

Bender The Offender: Oblio13: Spent 21 years in the Marines. A huge percentage of our woman Marines used to get pregnant either right before or during deployments. So a unit trains together like it should, then rotates overseas with brand new replacements to fill the holes. Now that I'm out I can say it: very, very few women pull their weight in the military.

My mom spent 24 years in the military, retired as a sgt. maj. She deployed around the world. She was an outstanding soldier and she joined as a single mother. I deplored to saudi and kosovo with female soldiers and pilots. Not one of them had their tours shortened for pregnancy. We did lose a few men to "stress" though. Just because youre a misogynistic douche doesn't mean reality reflects your "he man woman hater's club" mentality.

As far as the article goes, this woman is dishonest. She attempted to defraud the american people and manipulate the air force, now that she is being revealed for the morally bankrupt person she is, she is attempting to manipulate public opinion by turning a "you dishonestly violated a contract" situation into a "ZOMG the government wants to force me to have ABORTIONS". She has no honor, I hope she does jail time.


.
You had me until you declared that no women had their tours shortened. But to be fair Kosovo was before Generation Baby Daddy/Generation Pill Popper, so perhaps you are telling the truth.
 
2012-10-25 08:16:44 AM

Englebert Slaptyback: indylaw

Characterizing a failure to report some change in circumstances as agreed upon in a buried clause in a boiler plate contract signed by a woman five years ago when she was a teenager as "a fraud" is itself something close to a fraud. Fraud requires an intentional deceit, and it's not a word that should be thrown around lightly.


1) The teenager person of age to execute a binding contract was happy enough to sign on the line when it meant she had a 4-year scholarship.

2) She's quoted in TFA as explicitly deciding not to disclose the change in status as required. Besides, it's an amazing coincidence that she happened to become unable to serve after she completed school and just before she was required to start fulfilling her obligation; I would be following up on the fraud angle, too.


This is the meat of why this is big deal in the military. Military members are supposed to be worldwide deployable 24/7/365. Any condition that could potentially change your deployability status has to be notified to your chain of command ASAP, usually taken care of by the MTF you're required to see in the event of a medical change of status. The military is pretty good about treating and moving on with temporary conditions, but once you have a permanent condition there's a decent change of going through a med board.

Even though she wasn't under much threat to deploy, the fact that the expectation is there and she deprived her chain of command of her inability to deploy is grounds enough to boot her if they have legal authority to do so.
 
2012-10-25 08:17:34 AM

Bhruic: I don't have a problem with her fighting against the ruling - if her extended family is able to provide support for the kid, why shouldn't she have the same ability to be an officer?


She hid her medical condition, and took an oath knowing she wasn't being honest about her position, and now she is blaming others for her perdicament. That tells me she doesn't have the ability to be a good oficer.

On top of that her pregnency woudl have fallen when either she was supposed to be on soem type of summer tour or when her college classes were being paid for. Either way the govt would be wasting money on her for those times.
 
2012-10-25 08:18:37 AM

Englebert Slaptyback: indylaw

Characterizing a failure to report some change in circumstances as agreed upon in a buried clause in a boiler plate contract signed by a woman five years ago when she was a teenager as "a fraud" is itself something close to a fraud. Fraud requires an intentional deceit, and it's not a word that should be thrown around lightly.


1) The teenager person of age to execute a binding contract was happy enough to sign on the line when it meant she had a 4-year scholarship.

2) She's quoted in TFA as explicitly deciding not to disclose the change in status as required. Besides, it's an amazing coincidence that she happened to become unable to serve after she completed school and just before she was required to start fulfilling her obligation; I would be following up on the fraud angle, too.


There's a difference between saying "I knew there was a policy against being a single mom, so I didn't tell them right away," which is what she is cited as saying, and "I know that Paragraph 39, subclause g of that contract I signed five years ago specifically states, and I quote, I must immediately report that I am a pregnant single mother to the Air Force etc. etc." and I decided not to do so because fark Uncle Sam, that's why.

I bet there's stuff in your lease agreement or mortgage that you don't have devoted to memory. If you fail to fulfill those conditions, you probably breached a contract, but you didn't commit "a fraud".

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a commonsense policy not to have single mothers in the armed services. I just object to the characterization of this as "fraud." Fraud is when you knowingly communicate a falsehood in order to bilk someone out of some benefit that you wouldn't have received if you had not told them a lie. Negligent misrepresentation? Maybe.
 
2012-10-25 08:23:13 AM
Fighter aircraft with baby seats would be awesome.
 
2012-10-25 08:24:06 AM

dready zim: In other news, you can`t expect your life before having a baby to be exactly the same as your life after having a baby.

A lot of people do not realise this.


Seconded. This attitude of "I can have it all, and all right now" is way out of control. And if this chick had applied an ounce of reason, she might comprehend the long-term effects of the military tolerating her decisions. Shiat rolls down hill.

Or maybe, they should just put her in charge of a whole bunch of single parents and see how easy her life becomes. For every responsible one, she'll probably have 2 or 3 that just continually expect accommodation. Just like in civilian life.
 
2012-10-25 08:25:11 AM

indylaw: Don't get me wrong, I think it's a commonsense policy not to have single mothers in the armed services. I just object to the characterization of this as "fraud." Fraud is when you knowingly communicate a falsehood in order to bilk someone out of some benefit that you wouldn't have received if you had not told them a lie. Negligent misrepresentation? Maybe.


Yea I say cut her loose but going after a fraud charge is a waste of time.
 
2012-10-25 08:25:50 AM
She's an officer and a nurse, you idiots.
Let her serve or STFU.

/Nothing to see here.
 
2012-10-25 08:25:52 AM

indylaw: Englebert Slaptyback: indylaw

Characterizing a failure to report some change in circumstances as agreed upon in a buried clause in a boiler plate contract signed by a woman five years ago when she was a teenager as "a fraud" is itself something close to a fraud. Fraud requires an intentional deceit, and it's not a word that should be thrown around lightly.


1) The teenager person of age to execute a binding contract was happy enough to sign on the line when it meant she had a 4-year scholarship.

2) She's quoted in TFA as explicitly deciding not to disclose the change in status as required. Besides, it's an amazing coincidence that she happened to become unable to serve after she completed school and just before she was required to start fulfilling her obligation; I would be following up on the fraud angle, too.

There's a difference between saying "I knew there was a policy against being a single mom, so I didn't tell them right away," which is what she is cited as saying, and "I know that Paragraph 39, subclause g of that contract I signed five years ago specifically states, and I quote, I must immediately report that I am a pregnant single mother to the Air Force etc. etc." and I decided not to do so because fark Uncle Sam, that's why.

I bet there's stuff in your lease agreement or mortgage that you don't have devoted to memory. If you fail to fulfill those conditions, you probably breached a contract, but you didn't commit "a fraud".

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a commonsense policy not to have single mothers in the armed services. I just object to the characterization of this as "fraud." Fraud is when you knowingly communicate a falsehood in order to bilk someone out of some benefit that you wouldn't have received if you had not told them a lie. Negligent misrepresentation? Maybe.


As I recall, even though I was only a Reservist, these sorts of things are communicated and communicated clearly. She knew she had to report and failed to do so. It's entirely possible that she had other things going on as well as this was the straw, but that's not particularly relevant.

Also, military law != civilian law.
 
2012-10-25 08:25:58 AM

david_gaithersburg: Bender The Offender: Oblio13: Spent 21 years in the Marines. A huge percentage of our woman Marines used to get pregnant either right before or during deployments. So a unit trains together like it should, then rotates overseas with brand new replacements to fill the holes. Now that I'm out I can say it: very, very few women pull their weight in the military.

My mom spent 24 years in the military, retired as a sgt. maj. She deployed around the world. She was an outstanding soldier and she joined as a single mother. I deplored to saudi and kosovo with female soldiers and pilots. Not one of them had their tours shortened for pregnancy. We did lose a few men to "stress" though. Just because youre a misogynistic douche doesn't mean reality reflects your "he man woman hater's club" mentality.

As far as the article goes, this woman is dishonest. She attempted to defraud the american people and manipulate the air force, now that she is being revealed for the morally bankrupt person she is, she is attempting to manipulate public opinion by turning a "you dishonestly violated a contract" situation into a "ZOMG the government wants to force me to have ABORTIONS". She has no honor, I hope she does jail time.

.
You had me until you declared that no women had their tours shortened. But to be fair Kosovo was before Generation Baby Daddy/Generation Pill Popper, so perhaps you are telling the truth.


Perhaps I should have specified "in my unit". I know there were incidents were some females were sent home for pregnancies, just not from my units.
 
2012-10-25 08:27:49 AM

SnarfVader: /Sorry, lady. You don't get to play by a different set of rules from everybody else in the military.


Yes, I've seen lots of pregnant males in the Air Force nurse corps.

/You're realize that you're saying that pregnant males should be treated the same as pregnant females.
 
2012-10-25 08:29:02 AM

Bender The Offender: david_gaithersburg: Bender The Offender: Oblio13: Spent 21 years in the Marines. A huge percentage of our woman Marines used to get pregnant either right before or during deployments. So a unit trains together like it should, then rotates overseas with brand new replacements to fill the holes. Now that I'm out I can say it: very, very few women pull their weight in the military.

My mom spent 24 years in the military, retired as a sgt. maj. She deployed around the world. She was an outstanding soldier and she joined as a single mother. I deplored to saudi and kosovo with female soldiers and pilots. Not one of them had their tours shortened for pregnancy. We did lose a few men to "stress" though. Just because youre a misogynistic douche doesn't mean reality reflects your "he man woman hater's club" mentality.

As far as the article goes, this woman is dishonest. She attempted to defraud the american people and manipulate the air force, now that she is being revealed for the morally bankrupt person she is, she is attempting to manipulate public opinion by turning a "you dishonestly violated a contract" situation into a "ZOMG the government wants to force me to have ABORTIONS". She has no honor, I hope she does jail time.

.
You had me until you declared that no women had their tours shortened. But to be fair Kosovo was before Generation Baby Daddy/Generation Pill Popper, so perhaps you are telling the truth.

Perhaps I should have specified "in my unit". I know there were incidents were some females were sent home for pregnancies, just not from my units.


So what you're saying is, when it came to your unit, there was no chance a woman got pregnant?
 
2012-10-25 08:30:52 AM
MotherGoose, talk to me!
 
2012-10-25 08:30:53 AM

Fark It: Bender The Offender: Oblio13: Spent 21 years in the Marines. A huge percentage of our woman Marines used to get pregnant either right before or during deployments. So a unit trains together like it should, then rotates overseas with brand new replacements to fill the holes. Now that I'm out I can say it: very, very few women pull their weight in the military.

My mom spent 24 years in the military, retired as a sgt. maj. She deployed around the world. She was an outstanding soldier and she joined as a single mother. I deplored to saudi and kosovo with female soldiers and pilots. Not one of them had their tours shortened for pregnancy. We did lose a few men to "stress" though. Just because youre a misogynistic douche doesn't mean reality reflects your "he man woman hater's club" mentality.

As far as the article goes, this woman is dishonest. She attempted to defraud the american people and manipulate the air force, now that she is being revealed for the morally bankrupt person she is, she is attempting to manipulate public opinion by turning a "you dishonestly violated a contract" situation into a "ZOMG the government wants to force me to have ABORTIONS". She has no honor, I hope she does jail time.

"My personal anecdote is clearly more relevant then your personal anecdote!"


Yes, "how dare someone object to painting all women that serve in the military as incompetent whores by countering personal tales with tales to the contrary". Wow, thank you for that valuable insight. It's like you said what I did, but acted like it had any official went other than my own personal experiences. I tell you, you have a gift, to be so insightful, maybe you should do some sort of research that can benefit from your super human ability to state the obvious.
 
2012-10-25 08:31:04 AM

HotIgneous Intruder: SnarfVader: /Sorry, lady. You don't get to play by a different set of rules from everybody else in the military.

Yes, I've seen lots of pregnant males in the Air Force nurse corps.

/You're realize that you're saying that pregnant males should be treated the same as pregnant females.


Because we're totally talking about her being discharged for being preggers rather than her being discharged because she omitted relevant information from her chain of command which would get any serviceman/woman in loads of trouble.
 
2012-10-25 08:32:43 AM

hasty ambush: The military should not be a job corps for single parents. Heck even the married parents are a problem.

If a service memeber gets pregnant she is non-deployable for at least 9 months and depending on MOS/AFSC may be unable to do the job she was trained for, at much expense to the tax payer. That is a big chunk out a four year enlistment. Imagine if there are multiple pregnancies during her tour of duty.. Others end up carrying her share of the load as well as their own and it is not as if the military can hire a temp.

Service memebers who get preganant should be discharged with loss of all VA benefits. Motherhood and the military profession are not compatible. If you try to do both either the kids or the service gets short changed, usually both

/also against military personnel below the pay grad eof E-4 with less than four years service being allowed to marry.


/CSB start

I was a 2A373A (F-15 crew chief) back in the early 2000's and we had a girl who came in and didn't like being a mechanic so she got pregnant about a year into her first enlistment. She proceeded to have the kid and the Air Force allowed her to stay in debrief (where the pilots go after flight to report problems, etc) for 12 months because of something about the hydraulic fluid being absorbed by the skin and passed on to the child. So, lo and behold, near the end of that 12 months she announces she's pregnant again and we kept her in debrief for her entire pregnancy and right before she gave birth to the second child she applied for cross training as a recruiter and accepted. So, the Air Force doesn't hate pregnant women, there's a complete game you can play if you want. This girl managed to get in one of the career fields that was on stop loss at the time, spend 3 months of her first enlistment doing her actual job, then managed to avoid any kind of flight line work for the next 2 years before getting reassigned. If anyone, take advice from her on how to join the military if you want kids too, lol.

//end CSB
 
2012-10-25 08:32:47 AM

HotIgneous Intruder: SnarfVader: /Sorry, lady. You don't get to play by a different set of rules from everybody else in the military.

Yes, I've seen lots of pregnant males in the Air Force nurse corps.

/You're realize that you're saying that pregnant males should be treated the same as pregnant females.


No, he is saying that single fathers are treated the exact same as single mothers. If a father has sole custody of a child through divorce or his spouse's death, he would get the boot just as quickly. (several posters have already mentioned examples of this)
 
2012-10-25 08:33:50 AM
Worked with a girl who had been in the air force. She became pregnant 2 months in. They gave her the option to sign full custody of the child over to it's father (she was not married) or another family member. She wasn't kicked out. She made the decision she wanted. I'm sure the exact same thing happened with this woman.
 
2012-10-25 08:34:04 AM

indylaw


There's a difference between saying "I knew there was a policy against being a single mom, so I didn't tell them right away," which is what she is cited as saying, and "I know that Paragraph 39, subclause g of that contract I signed five years ago specifically states, and I quote, I must immediately report that I am a pregnant single mother to the Air Force etc. etc." and I decided not to do so because fark Uncle Sam, that's why.

I bet there's stuff in your lease agreement or mortgage that you don't have devoted to memory. If you fail to fulfill those conditions, you probably breached a contract, but you didn't commit "a fraud".

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a commonsense policy not to have single mothers in the armed services. I just object to the characterization of this as "fraud." Fraud is when you knowingly communicate a falsehood in order to bilk someone out of some benefit that you wouldn't have received if you had not told them a lie. Negligent misrepresentation? Maybe.


You might not have experienced this, but all of the requirements for receiving (and keeping) ROTC scholarship money are made abundantly clear to freshman cadets. The change in status clause would not have been buried in "Paragraph 39, subclause g"; it would have been right up front.

Re-read my last paragraph about the amazing coincidence. It would be very easy to make the plausible case that she always intended to get pregnant post-school/pre-serve and thus the original signing of the contract was indeed fraudulent, since she never intended to fulfill her side of the bargain but wanted to receive the benefit of the funding.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-10-25 08:35:43 AM

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: It's not like the Air Force tells people these things, or she could've ever done anything to prevent pregnancy.


Well, if you fark with God's will you get raped according to that Morlock guy.
 
2012-10-25 08:35:45 AM

Seacop: Bender The Offender: david_gaithersburg: Bender The Offender: Oblio13: Spent 21 years in the Marines. A huge percentage of our woman Marines used to get pregnant either right before or during deployments. So a unit trains together like it should, then rotates overseas with brand new replacements to fill the holes. Now that I'm out I can say it: very, very few women pull their weight in the military.

My mom spent 24 years in the military, retired as a sgt. maj. She deployed around the world. She was an outstanding soldier and she joined as a single mother. I deplored to saudi and kosovo with female soldiers and pilots. Not one of them had their tours shortened for pregnancy. We did lose a few men to "stress" though. Just because youre a misogynistic douche doesn't mean reality reflects your "he man woman hater's club" mentality.

As far as the article goes, this woman is dishonest. She attempted to defraud the american people and manipulate the air force, now that she is being revealed for the morally bankrupt person she is, she is attempting to manipulate public opinion by turning a "you dishonestly violated a contract" situation into a "ZOMG the government wants to force me to have ABORTIONS". She has no honor, I hope she does jail time.

.
You had me until you declared that no women had their tours shortened. But to be fair Kosovo was before Generation Baby Daddy/Generation Pill Popper, so perhaps you are telling the truth.

Perhaps I should have specified "in my unit". I know there were incidents were some females were sent home for pregnancies, just not from my units.

So what you're saying is, when it came to your unit, there was no chance a woman got pregnant?


We were a medivac unit, mostly 91 charlies, doctors, and nurses. I'm pretty sure the possibility existed. The reality is, not one person was sent home for pregnancy during our deployment. What is your point exactly? What question are you begging?
 
2012-10-25 08:36:19 AM

omnimancer28: No, he is saying that single fathers are treated the exact same as single mothers. If a father has sole custody of a child through divorce or his spouse's death, he would get the boot just as quickly. (several posters have already mentioned examples of this)


Not really. What it means is that the armed services are just as stupid as ever.
Like Lockheed Martin, they never forget whose money they're wasting.

But impoverishing a single mom by putting her into debt and tossing a motivated commissioned officer out of the only career she ever wanted seems like the right thing to do, right?
Farking idiots.
 
2012-10-25 08:36:44 AM

ronaprhys:
Don't get me wrong, I think it's a commonsense policy not to have single mothers in the armed services. I just object to the characterization of this as "fraud." Fraud is when you knowingly communicate a falsehood in order to bilk someone out of some benefit that you wouldn't have received if you had not told them a lie. Negligent misrepresentation? Maybe.

As I recall, even though I was only a Reservist, these sorts of things are communicated and communicated clearly. She knew she had to report and failed to do so. I ...


This may come as a shock to you, as it does to many, but even in law (even in *military* law), words have meaning. You can't say "she's a murderer!" when what you really mean is that some guy ran out right in front of her car and she didn't see him in time to hit the brakes. Even if you use "military law" as a copout. You don't say "she's a thief" if she gets the wrong (but similar) coat from the coat check and doesn't realize the error until she gets home.

There's no question that she was required by military regulations to report her pregnancy and didn't. That doesn't mean that she committed fraud to obtain a scholarship, which is what the military lawyers are claiming.

You could make that argument if you could demonstrate that even though she wasn't pregnant in 2007 when she signed the contract, she intended when she signed the contract to get some guy to knock her up a few years later and she was going to lie about it and game the system so that she could get a scholarship to college but avoid having to serve in the Air Force. But a breach of contract doesn't magically become fraud because some JAG prosecutor says so.
 
2012-10-25 08:37:45 AM
The Navy doesn't kick you, they make you prepare with a Family Care Plan. I imagine the other branches do the same.

That was the biggest WTF moment for me reading that verbal diarrhea. Too much derp in that article to address it all, though... Sweet baby Jebus in his manger.

/In other military news, officers don't enlist. Enlisted members enlist... Crazy, right?
 
2012-10-25 08:38:19 AM

Englebert Slaptyback: It would be very easy to make the plausible case that she always intended to get pregnant post-school/pre-serve and thus the original signing of the contract was indeed fraudulent, since she never intended to fulfill her side of the bargain but wanted to receive the benefit of the funding.


Arguments are usually accompanied by evidence beyond "Wow, isn't this convenient!"
 
2012-10-25 08:38:25 AM

Bender The Offender: Seacop: Bender The Offender: david_gaithersburg: Bender The Offender: Oblio13: Spent 21 years in the Marines. A huge percentage of our woman Marines used to get pregnant either right before or during deployments. So a unit trains together like it should, then rotates overseas with brand new replacements to fill the holes. Now that I'm out I can say it: very, very few women pull their weight in the military.

My mom spent 24 years in the military, retired as a sgt. maj. She deployed around the world. She was an outstanding soldier and she joined as a single mother. I deplored to saudi and kosovo with female soldiers and pilots. Not one of them had their tours shortened for pregnancy. We did lose a few men to "stress" though. Just because youre a misogynistic douche doesn't mean reality reflects your "he man woman hater's club" mentality.

As far as the article goes, this woman is dishonest. She attempted to defraud the american people and manipulate the air force, now that she is being revealed for the morally bankrupt person she is, she is attempting to manipulate public opinion by turning a "you dishonestly violated a contract" situation into a "ZOMG the government wants to force me to have ABORTIONS". She has no honor, I hope she does jail time.

.
You had me until you declared that no women had their tours shortened. But to be fair Kosovo was before Generation Baby Daddy/Generation Pill Popper, so perhaps you are telling the truth.

Perhaps I should have specified "in my unit". I know there were incidents were some females were sent home for pregnancies, just not from my units.

So what you're saying is, when it came to your unit, there was no chance a woman got pregnant?

We were a medivac unit, mostly 91 charlies, doctors, and nurses. I'm pretty sure the possibility existed. The reality is, not one person was sent home for pregnancy during our deployment. What is your point exactly? What question are you begging?


My point, would be that with no pregnancies we can deduce, when it came to your unit the women just weren't interested in sexual activities
 
2012-10-25 08:38:57 AM

EZ Writer: The Navy doesn't kick you, they make you prepare with a Family Care Plan. I imagine the other branches do the same.

That was the biggest WTF moment for me reading that verbal diarrhea. Too much derp in that article to address it all, though... Sweet baby Jebus in his manger.

/In other military news, officers don't enlist. Enlisted members enlist... Crazy, right?



Let me clarify, because this is Fark... The Navy doesn't kick you, unless you do not comply with their more-than-fail policy.
 
2012-10-25 08:39:40 AM

EZ Writer: EZ Writer: The Navy doesn't kick you, they make you prepare with a Family Care Plan. I imagine the other branches do the same.

That was the biggest WTF moment for me reading that verbal diarrhea. Too much derp in that article to address it all, though... Sweet baby Jebus in his manger.

/In other military news, officers don't enlist. Enlisted members enlist... Crazy, right?


Let me clarify, because this is Fark... The Navy doesn't kick you, unless you do not comply with their more-than-fail policy.


*Fail = fair.

Off to the coffee pot...
 
2012-10-25 08:39:59 AM

Fark It: Bender The Offender: Oblio13: Spent 21 years in the Marines. A huge percentage of our woman Marines used to get pregnant either right before or during deployments. So a unit trains together like it should, then rotates overseas with brand new replacements to fill the holes. Now that I'm out I can say it: very, very few women pull their weight in the military.

My mom spent 24 years in the military, retired as a sgt. maj. She deployed around the world. She was an outstanding soldier and she joined as a single mother. I deplored to saudi and kosovo with female soldiers and pilots. Not one of them had their tours shortened for pregnancy. We did lose a few men to "stress" though. Just because youre a misogynistic douche doesn't mean reality reflects your "he man woman hater's club" mentality.

As far as the article goes, this woman is dishonest. She attempted to defraud the american people and manipulate the air force, now that she is being revealed for the morally bankrupt person she is, she is attempting to manipulate public opinion by turning a "you dishonestly violated a contract" situation into a "ZOMG the government wants to force me to have ABORTIONS". She has no honor, I hope she does jail time.

"My personal anecdote is clearly more relevant then your personal anecdote!"


In my experience it wasn't that women could not handle the military, it was that men could not deal with the women in the military. Things like a guy standing near the front of a 45 minute long chow line sees a random woman walking past and offers to let her jump in line ahead of him. He'd almost never make that offer to a guy, but who could blame her for taking the offer, but the guy way in the back is mad at her for getting a shortcut. Something heavy needs to be moved? Some guy will offer to do it and every other guy around accuses her of not pulling her weight...but trust me, some guy offers to pick up a 100lb safety relief valve for me, I'm letting him. I did a rough job in a rough environment where there were no women. There were about 20 guys working there and 3 of us did the vast majority of the low level jobs while you could find at least 6 people sitting under a vent at any given time of the work day.

There will always be slackers and workers and I suspect the ratio is about the same for women as it is for men.

tldr: Lazy farkers are everywhere
 
2012-10-25 08:40:39 AM

HotIgneous Intruder: omnimancer28: No, he is saying that single fathers are treated the exact same as single mothers. If a father has sole custody of a child through divorce or his spouse's death, he would get the boot just as quickly. (several posters have already mentioned examples of this)

Not really. What it means is that the armed services are just as stupid as ever.
Like Lockheed Martin, they never forget whose money they're wasting.

But impoverishing a single mom by putting her into debt and tossing a motivated commissioned officer out of the only career she ever wanted seems like the right thing to do, right?
Farking idiots.


She had the choice to be put on medical leave and then provide a stable situation for the child. If she married, adopted, or signed over custody of the child to the father (who the article even says is prepared to care for the kid) she could have remained in the service. It is not in the military or child's best interest to have a deployed mother with no other legal guardian.
 
2012-10-25 08:41:06 AM

Englebert Slaptyback: It would be very easy to make the plausible case that she always intended to get pregnant post-school/pre-serve and thus the original signing of the contract was indeed fraudulent, since she never intended to fulfill her side of the bargain but wanted to receive the benefit of the funding.


Why the fark would she want to be on the hook for more than $93K (plus interest, without a doubt)?

/Dunning Kruger is in full play in this thread insofar as many of the commenters think they are super duper smart.
 
2012-10-25 08:42:50 AM

liam76: Bhruic: I don't have a problem with her fighting against the ruling - if her extended family is able to provide support for the kid, why shouldn't she have the same ability to be an officer?

She hid her medical condition, and took an oath knowing she wasn't being honest about her position, and now she is blaming others for her perdicament. That tells me she doesn't have the ability to be a good oficer.

On top of that her pregnency woudl have fallen when either she was supposed to be on soem type of summer tour or when her college classes were being paid for. Either way the govt would be wasting money on her for those times.


Yes, I understand that she was dishonest, and I agree she should suffer the consequences of that. But at the same time, if she's been advised that she can't continue if she's a single parent, it tends to incentivise not reporting your pregnancy. Fighting against the policy makes sense (assuming it's a bad policy, and I'm not in a position to comment on that), but even if successful shouldn't mean that she gets off the hook.
 
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