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(USA Today)   Dick Mourdock clarifies his comments: "I didn't say God intended rape, he just intended the babies born out of rape. Got that?"   (usatoday.com) divider line 388
    More: Followup, Richard Mourdock, human beings, Indiana Senate, Susan B. Anthony List, Jennifer Psaki, American Bridge, Claire McCaskill, U.S. Senate  
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2178 clicks; posted to Politics » on 24 Oct 2012 at 5:45 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-24 06:47:55 PM

jvl: Here's how the "both" works: people have free will, but God knows how it's going to work out if he lets people make their own decisions. Usually such people believe that the end result of history is destined. So the rape is a completely evil crime made when God allowed the rapist to choose whether to act good or act evilly. The net result though, simply adds to God's plan. In this way, he is saying that if someone is raped and chooses to have a baby, then the baby is (a) good and (b) meant to be and (c) the rapist is a criminal.


OK, so I'm hardly a proper student of quantum physics, but as I understand it, a wave function can be in multiple states at once until it is observed. The act of observation collapses it to the one possibility that becomes the reality.

This seems much like that - a guy could either rape, or not, and supposedly has the free will to choose, but as soon as God observes the situation, it is decided which he will do, since God knows how it'll work out. So, in actual fact, he doesn't REALLY have free will at all.

Of course, abb3w will probably be along in a minute to tell me how wrong I am, and how I'm wrong, but that's ok.
 
2012-10-24 06:48:53 PM
Oh, so your God doesn't condone rape. He condones psychological torture and permanent physical change without any consent of the woman after rape.

That makes it all better!
 
2012-10-24 06:50:35 PM

Shrugging Atlas: Corvus: You know who is a cool person? That Jesus Christ guy. He never spoke about abortion or hating gays. In fact he talked about helping the poor and loving EVERYONE. No wonder these guys never actually seem to give a shiat about what he said.

One of my favorite moments in the life of Jesus....

[i.imgur.com image 600x656]


And that is why Troll-Jegus is Best-Jegus.
 
2012-10-24 06:51:47 PM
What if my God doesn't give a f*ck about pregnancies and abortions and just kinda sits back and watches the sh*t show? Shouldn't I not be under your legislative jackboot you theofascist poopstain?
 
2012-10-24 06:53:45 PM
Even my right wing nut-job spouse (whom I adore for his compassion and giant cock) has this to say about abortion: " I believe that sometimes abortion is necessary and that necessary means different things to different people. I'm not qualified to say what is necessary and what isn't, so I support any woman whose need for abortion is so great that she is willing to have that on her conscience. No woman gets an abortion she doesn't believe is necessary. God understands this."

This ^ is all Republican politicians should ever say about abortion at any time.
 
2012-10-24 06:53:48 PM
God knows the rape will happen, and he allows some good to come out of the evil of man by causing a pregnancy.

The kicker is that God would also know that an abortion will happen in cases where the woman chooses that route.

He knew the rape would happen. He knew the abortion would happen. So where is the good coming out of any of this?
 
2012-10-24 06:54:15 PM

theMagni: evaned: I'm actually a pretty hardcore liberal, and I'm actually willing to give him the benefit of the doubt as far as what he said.

What I don't understand though is how you believe in an omnipotent god who goes "oh, hey, she's getting raped. Um... let's make her pregnant" instead of "oh, hey, she's getting raped. Let's give him a convenient massive heart attack" -- and then go and worship said god.

Or even "oh, hey, she's going to get raped at 3pm by... okay, he'll have a heart attack at 1pm, cool."


In some ways I like my idea better. Wikipedia says there were almost 90,000 reported rapes in the US in 2008; if for the sake of easy head math, let's say 300 per day. Imagine the psychological impact that a story saying "300 people died of heart attacks the previous day while attempting rape, and none succeeded" would have. An extra 300 heart attack deaths per day would go relatively unnoticed for a bit (there are ~2,200 currently), and the connection to the sudden absence of rapes would be a lot harder to discern.

Your way has the benefit of even those... let's say, 600 people (it might take rapists a couple days to get the message) avoiding the traumatic experience, but hey, we're talking about hypotheticals here anyway.
 
2012-10-24 06:54:31 PM
playingrickymorton.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-10-24 06:54:37 PM

gadian: Even my right wing nut-job spouse (whom I adore for his compassion and giant cock)


Husband-like typing detected.
 
2012-10-24 06:54:42 PM

vpb: So the "I was on a mission from God" defense won't work?


I still like the premise of a comment made in the earlier article.

If God intended a baby to be born from rape how can you say God did not provide the knowledge of how to perform abortions to the creator of abortions? How do we know abortions are not Gods will? Who are you to say it is not Gods will since his will cannot be known?
 
2012-10-24 06:54:42 PM
The wages of sin is death. Or maybe rape and pregnancy. Or maybe rape. Or maybe rape and death. But probably not death and pregnancy.

But the Republican God is a powerful god. If he chooses to give a child to a necrophiliac and his partner, whom am I to question the workings of the Divine.
 
2012-10-24 06:57:45 PM
sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net
 
2012-10-24 06:57:57 PM

GhostFish: God knows the rape will happen, and he allows some good to come out of the evil of man by causing a pregnancy.

The kicker is that God would also know that an abortion will happen in cases where the woman chooses that route.

He knew the rape would happen. He knew the abortion would happen. So where is the good coming out of any of this?


There's a dude getting laid I suppose....

/I'm actually sorry for that snark to the point I almost didn't make it
 
2012-10-24 06:58:46 PM
Walking around the block, I caught a lawn sign for our GOP State Rep candidate. Her campaign slogan, and I kid you not: 'With God all things are possible.' And this is for the state rep of suburban Cleveland.

I almost feel like we're this close to having teenage girls getting stoned to death.
 
2012-10-24 06:59:17 PM
So does God have a pre-set agenda of who will fark who to make babies, and if they don't naturally hook up it moves to rape to get that baby made?
 
2012-10-24 06:59:45 PM

dahmers love zombie: [i.imgur.com image 850x296]


may i borrow that...i feel like starting a facebook war before i go on vacation
 
2012-10-24 07:00:14 PM

Kazrath: How do we know abortions are not Gods will?


Reminds me of this oldie but goodie:

The area was flooding so this man climbed up on his roof. When he got to the top of his roof, he saw no one around, so he prayed to God to rescue him. Soon a guy came in a boat and offered to save him. The man on the roof explained to him that no, God was going to save him, so the man in the boat left. Then a helicopter flew over the house, dropped a ladder down and called to the man to climb up. The man on the roof politely said no thanks and explained to them that God was going to save him, so they too left. The man waited and watched the water rise. Eventually he had to swim. He kept swimming until he was so tired that he drowned. After he died, he saw God and asked Him why He hadn't saved him from the flood. To which God replied, I sent you a boat and a helicopter and you rejected them both.
 
2012-10-24 07:00:18 PM
Reposting from other thread because
www.mattbors.com
 
2012-10-24 07:00:41 PM

jvl: Here's how the "both" works: people have free will, but God knows how it's going to work out if he lets people make their own decisions.


If God already knows how everything is going to play out, why does Man constantly surprise and piss him off? From Eve and the apple to God flooding the entire planet, God is anything but omniscient.

The same argument applies to Q in Star Trek.
 
2012-10-24 07:01:23 PM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: gadian: Even my right wing nut-job spouse (whom I adore for his compassion and giant cock)

Husband-like typing detected.


:D I get told that my descriptions of him are sometimes indicitive that I must not love or respect him very much. So, I feel I must clarify that even though he's a complete nut-job, sometimes racist, birther, gun nut, he's got some...er...finer points.
 
2012-10-24 07:01:47 PM

Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: I almost feel like we're this close to having teenage girls getting stoned to death.


Reefer Madness!!
 
2012-10-24 07:02:57 PM

Jon iz teh kewl: If it's a legimate rape, the female body has ways (i.e. pepper spray, mace, taser) to try to shut the whole thing down.



Colt.45 semi-automatic. Nature's 911.
 
2012-10-24 07:04:36 PM

jvl: Derp.


For one thing, if what you said is true then God is complicit in countless instances of rape across history and continues to be.

Second, taking the question of predestination out of it which leads to all sorts of ethical questions related to the nature and ends of a deity, the question is over the woman has the right to choose to terminate her pregnancy. The correlative to what you claim is that if a woman chooses to terminate her pregnancy, it is also good and adds to God's plan, if the question of God's plan is so open-ended to be dependent upon the sum of human activity as a function of free will.

The other correlative, of course, is that a man's choice to rape a woman must be inherently good and adds to God's plan, one way or another. You don't remove "good" and degrees of perfection from creation for one act of evil only to add them later and claim the whole is still greater or more perfect than the sum of its parts (read, Boethius). So yes, in that case, you are still making the claim, and working from the hidden premise, that rape is good and part of God's plan.

Third, what are you saying here? The man has agency to rape a woman, but the woman has no agency to terminate the pregnancy? If free will is the ultimate arbiter of human activity, the woman has license to terminate her pregnancy as an act of free will -- just as much if not more than the man's agency to rape her in the first place. If the question is legal rights and responsibilities, and agency to act through free will, set against the social consequences of that act, typified by criminalizing activity and punishing those that commit the act, why ought the rapist have agency where the victimized woman has not?
 
2012-10-24 07:05:52 PM

dletter: swaniefrmreddeer: So god intended for the rape victim to conceive, then he must have wanted her to be raped in the first place. Therefor god wants women to get rape-raped.

You forget, "God" is responsible for anything that they do want to have happen, and "Satan" or something else outside of God's control is responsible for the other parts. So, Satan raped the person, and God just decided to make it a little better, because kids always make everything better!

It is all part of the "Making things up from inferences as I go along to fit my needs" bible study.


You know, I'll never understand how Christians think of themselves as monotheists. So many of them ascribe so much power and control to Satan that he must be considered a secondary deity of some sort.
 
2012-10-24 07:06:21 PM

Weaver95: abhorrent1: god likes rape

some gods do, yes. the Christian one doesn't.


Sure he does. He explicitly allows sex slaves.
 
2012-10-24 07:07:07 PM

nekulor: Why is Conservative God such a dick?


Because it's a bunch of assholes telling others what god thinks, instead of reiterating any teachings of examples of god, such as Jesus. This is the perfect example of a wolf in christian clothing, which should not reflect on christians as a whole, as this sort of thing typically does on fark.
 
2012-10-24 07:08:57 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: This is the perfect example of a wolf in christian clothing, which should not reflect on christians as a whole, as this sort of thing typically does on fark.


Let me know when the Christian voting block starts to reject people like this, rather than support them.
 
2012-10-24 07:09:14 PM

Flappyhead: chuckufarlie: HE failed the first rule of holes

1. Once you find yourself in one, stop digging.

No no no, dig UP stupid.


If you are that deep by the time you find yourself in a hole, it is to late.
 
2012-10-24 07:10:59 PM

mediablitz: Sure he does. He explicitly allows sex slaves.


It does seem strange when you forget that the bible is a compilation of books, assembled by ancient politicians. If you care about the facts, however, it's fairly easy to discern what books should be ignored, and what ignored books should have been included. *protip* start with Jesus and cut and paste from there.
 
2012-10-24 07:13:35 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: mediablitz: Sure he does. He explicitly allows sex slaves.

It does seem strange when you forget that the bible is a compilation of books, assembled by ancient politicians. If you care about the facts, however, it's fairly easy to discern what books should be ignored, and what ignored books should have been included. *protip* start with Jesus and cut and paste from there.


*better protip* Ignore all of it. The collective fantasy stories of an ancient society of goat-herders has no relevance to real life.
 
jvl
2012-10-24 07:17:09 PM

Martian_Astronomer: jvl: Here's how the "both" works: people have free will, but God knows how it's going to work out if he lets people make their own decisions. Usually such people believe that the end result of history is destined. So the rape is a completely evil crime made when God allowed the rapist to choose whether to act good or act evilly. The net result though, simply adds to God's plan. In this way, he is saying that if someone is raped and chooses to have a baby, then the baby is (a) good and (b) meant to be and (c) the rapist is a criminal.

Yeah, I'm going to agree that this makes no sense. If the rape baby was "meant to be," then so was the rape. I can draw out the symbolic logic if you want...



I'm not Calvinist, so I have trouble wrapping my head around the concept of every little detail of the universe being intended, as opposed to the larger strokes.
 
2012-10-24 07:17:31 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: It does seem strange when you forget that the bible is a compilation of books, assembled by ancient politicians. If you care about the facts, however, it's fairly easy to discern what books should be ignored, and what ignored books should have been included. *protip* start with Jesus and cut and paste from there.


If you care about the facts, you should be ignoring the Bible completely.
 
2012-10-24 07:18:05 PM

that bosnian sniper: Third, what are you saying here? The man has agency to rape a woman, but the woman has no agency to terminate the pregnancy? If free will is the ultimate arbiter of human activity, the woman has license to terminate her pregnancy as an act of free will -- just as much if not more than the man's agency to rape her in the first place. If the question is legal rights and responsibilities, and agency to act through free will, set against the social consequences of that act, typified by criminalizing activity and punishing those that commit the act, why ought the rapist have agency where the victimized woman has not?


To be fair, he doesn't really: it's not like rape is legal or condoned by society (except in prisons, apparently).
 
jvl
2012-10-24 07:19:00 PM

Freudian_slipknot: jvl: Here's how the "both" works: people have free will, but God knows how it's going to work out if he lets people make their own decisions. Usually such people believe that the end result of history is destined. So the rape is a completely evil crime made when God allowed the rapist to choose whether to act good or act evilly. The net result though, simply adds to God's plan. In this way, he is saying that if someone is raped and chooses to have a baby, then the baby is (a) good and (b) meant to be and (c) the rapist is a criminal.

You do realize that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and that people are correct to point that out, right?


It makes perfect Philosophical sense. Keep in mind I don't belong to that particular school of philosophy...

Not to mention that saying God would intentionally inflict additional horror and trauma on a rape victim and then call it "good" is a wildly insulting thing to accuse any god of doing.

Good things from bad acts? That's life.
 
2012-10-24 07:22:34 PM
God can do anything he wants, and I personally am the person who will decide what he is and is not responsible for!
 
jvl
2012-10-24 07:23:54 PM

Corvus: A) No on is "hyperventilating". We are pointing and laughing at a dipshiat!


Oh you optimist! Wait for it! Here it comes!

RevMercutio: Grown ups know that women exist. Seems like you and Dicky could care less about their position in the matter.

that bosnian sniper: jvl: Derp.


Ah, that's better! It's always nice to know even a mere discussion of schools of Philosophy on Fark will lead to accusations of gibberish and women-hating. Well done!
 
2012-10-24 07:26:20 PM
By the way Romney's stance was the same on abortion only weeks ago. In fact his stance was even if the mother's life was in danger she shouldn't get an abortion.
 
jvl
2012-10-24 07:26:30 PM

Mugato: jvl: Here's how the "both" works: people have free will, but God knows how it's going to work out if he lets people make their own decisions.

If God already knows how everything is going to play out, why does Man constantly surprise and piss him off? From Eve and the apple to God flooding the entire planet, God is anything but omniscient.

The same argument applies to Q in Star Trek.


You know, this really does make a lot more sense if talk about Q rather than God.
 
2012-10-24 07:27:10 PM
Thank god society has finally progressed in this country to the point where expressing backwards, asinine religious dogma is actually considered an embarrassing, career ending gaffe. We are about 20 years away from an atheist President and about 40 away from religion being a sad anachronism confined to the f***ing Ozarks.
 
2012-10-24 07:27:29 PM

SteelPeart: Dear Farkers:

You've been trolled hard by a Christian fundie idiot.

Sincerely,

the rest of the human race


It's not trolling when the speaker means what he says. Plus, he is inches from being elected to the U.S. Senate (well maybe feet or yards now, but no matter). Sorry that you don't find this to be meaningful.
 
2012-10-24 07:27:39 PM

jvl: Good things from bad acts? That's life.


Right but then how abort the abortion. Isn't that part of "god's plan" too? Or somehow that's under the radar?
 
2012-10-24 07:28:11 PM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: *better protip* Ignore all of it. The collective fantasy stories of an ancient society of goat-herders has no relevance to real life.


mediablitz: If you care about the facts, you should be ignoring the Bible completely.


Gosh darn it, you're just so cute. Yep, the rules Jesus laid out have no relevance for our lives..it's just so typical for farkers who hate the possibility that there's a god and he might want you to live in a way that you don't feel like living it. Just one universe, where the laws just happened to work out to have the ability to form complex life.. and it's entirely bullshiat that there was an intelligence behind it. Chances are, you don't know much about physics.. because the odds against this whole thing happening are beyond staggering.

Please feel free to trot out the "well if it wasn't perfect for forming life, then life wouldn't be there to realize it" derp, because it is only one single universe after all, and the odds are infinitely against you.
 
2012-10-24 07:28:27 PM
The Bible makes note of children conceived against God's wishes.
It's arguably the cause for the flood in Genesis.

So did God intend those pregnancies just to piss himself off?
 
jvl
2012-10-24 07:28:28 PM

intelligent comment below: Everyone is missing the big picture here. If you are murdered then that was also God's will. The person who killed you should not be guilty of anything. In fact they are just messengers of God, doing his work on Earth


Nope. In the Calvinist School, the murder is part of the plan, but the murderer still had free will and is therefore still guilty of doing the devil's work.
 
2012-10-24 07:29:53 PM

Tommy Moo: Thank god society has finally progressed in this country to the point where expressing backwards, asinine religious dogma is actually considered an embarrassing, career ending gaffe. We are about 20 years away from an atheist President and about 40 away from religion being a sad anachronism confined to the f***ing Ozarks.


I don't know if in this country we are. Religion is too much of an identity to a big portion of the US population. I have meet right wingers who call themselves religious and think we shouldn't do things because "the bible says" (which it usually doesn't) and never actually go to church. They just like to think they are part of the group.
 
jvl
2012-10-24 07:30:36 PM

Corvus: jvl: Good things from bad acts? That's life.

Right but then how abort the abortion. Isn't that part of "god's plan" too? Or somehow that's under the radar?


Well, I tend to be biologically minded and think it isn't murder until you have more neurons than a rat, so I might not be the right person to ask.

But for those who are anti-abortion, then yes the abortion is part of the plan in exactly the same way a rape is. A bad act caused by someone with freewill who understood the choice and is therefore evil.
 
2012-10-24 07:30:39 PM
A thought experiment (paraphrased from Hitchens)

If God is all powerful, then he must be able to create another god with its own universe with every ability and power he himself posesses except for the ability to know that the first God exists.

In this case, how can God be sure he wasn't created in just this fashion?

If he can't be sure, then he isn't omniscient.

If he can't create another god with these conditions, then he isn't omnipotent.

This proves that one cannot be both omniscient AND omnipotent at the same time.

The god-as-omnipotent/omniscient worldview is incoherent and corrupt. These people deserve neither respect nor tolerance.
 
2012-10-24 07:30:59 PM

jvl: intelligent comment below: Everyone is missing the big picture here. If you are murdered then that was also God's will. The person who killed you should not be guilty of anything. In fact they are just messengers of God, doing his work on Earth

Nope. In the Calvinist School, the murder is part of the plan, but the murderer still had free will and is therefore still guilty of doing the devil's work.


But magically the Abortion isn't part of the plan. God has a blind spot for abortions.
 
2012-10-24 07:31:08 PM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: BMulligan: the ones who've at least heard of Aquinas) don't think of God's plan as some kind of agenda, some sequence of predestined events, but rather something much bigger than that - perhaps so big that we can't even fully comprehend its actual nature

What a perfect way to say that a plan exists without ever having to provide any details about it or proof it exists! A God we can't see doing things we can't understand, and yet it's all part of a plan! BRILLIANT


Okay, look - I personally think that a belief in God (the Christian God in particular, but really any generic theistic deity), absent proof, is absurd. The notion of faith as used in a religious context is, I think, nonsensical. The whole thing strikes me from to top bottom as a second-rate fairy tale, and I can't understand why so many people seem to find it so easy to believe.

However, that said, if there were a God, wouldn't you expect him (or it, or whatever) to be a God we can't see doing things we can't understand, in pursuit of a plan that we can't comprehend? I mean, really, isn't that kind of the very definition of "God?" Once one accepts the existence of God, all the rest of that just sort of seems to follow.
 
2012-10-24 07:31:53 PM

jvl: Corvus: jvl: Good things from bad acts? That's life.

Right but then how abort the abortion. Isn't that part of "god's plan" too? Or somehow that's under the radar?

Well, I tend to be biologically minded and think it isn't murder until you have more neurons than a rat, so I might not be the right person to ask.

But for those who are anti-abortion, then yes the abortion is part of the plan in exactly the same way a rape is. A bad act caused by someone with freewill who understood the choice and is therefore evil.


Well then if it's part of God's plan, just like the rape, then the whole argument is wrong.
 
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