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(Slate)   Does the U.S. Military still use bayonets? Of course, bayonets are useful for keeping prisoners under control and for "poking an enemy to see whether he is dead"   (slate.com) divider line 261
    More: Obvious, U.S., U.S. military, Basra, Ft. Hood, prisoners under control  
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10639 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Oct 2012 at 11:10 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-23 11:56:49 AM
I have a Japanese bayonet and scabbard from Iwo Jima. The metal scabbard has a very definite, straight-edge dent in the tail end of it. I really don't want to know how it got there.
 
2012-10-23 11:56:51 AM

jaytkay: In May 2004, approximately 20 British troops in Basra were ambushed and forced out of their vehicles by about 100 shiate militia fighters. When ammunition ran low, the British troops fixed bayonets and charged the enemy. About 20 militiamen were killed in the assault without any British deaths.


Thanks. Does that mean the United States use fewer Bayonets and Horses than in WWI? Does that mean we should have 1,000 ships?
 
2012-10-23 11:57:31 AM

gerrymander: hdhale: /look it was a silly point on Obama's part...last I heard that 70% of the Earth's surface was covered in water and those carriers he talked about still need support ships...LOTS of support ships...the last thing we need is a smaller navy

The real problem for Obama's scornful 'argument' is that The US Navy has fewer ships than the Admiralty recommends it have to do its job. The current fleet is 287 ships, the recommendation is for 313. Since no one is recommending we build anything but the most technologically-capable fleet, Obama's comment was a back-handed slap by a sitting Commander-in-Chief to his own highest-level naval staff.


Obama's record...as brief as it was in the Senate...regarding military spending generally is he hates it and usually voted against it. He does demonstrate however the adeptness of a contortionist when it came time to take credit and slap himself on the back for getting bin Laden--something done thanks to years of intell work dating back to 2001 and the money spent on equipment and training by the Bush administration on Special Operations forces.

No, Mr. Obama may lecture me any time on the difficulties of growing up as a mixed race child with a mixed religious background. He may also lecture me on the best places to get good food in Chicago. He may never presume to lecture anyone on military issues.
 
2012-10-23 11:58:09 AM
So long as they don't cancel the power-armour program.
images.wikia.com
 
2012-10-23 11:58:13 AM

JesseL: Langdon_777: Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: I was shocked to see a US Army shotgun fitted with a bayonet. Now that is CLOSE combat. My hat's off to anyone who is too close to use a shotgun and has to stab an enemy to death.

I ho[e they were solids and not buckshot, cause the later is (technically LOL) against the something or other Convention ... mmm vaguely remember it starting with 'G' ... Genesis, no that's not right ... nope it escapes me, pretty sure it must be one of those old laws that needs to be removed from the books ... like 'unnatural sex acts'.

Geneva. And no it's not.

Nor is it against the Hague Conventions (which do have something to say about projectiles that cause unnecessary suffering but don't address shotguns shooting shot). And even if it was against the Hague Conventions, the US isn't a signatory to them (we generally abide by them though). And even if the US were a signatory to the Hague Conventions, they don't apply to conflicts involving other non-signatories that don't abide by them (like everyone we've been fighting lately).


But other than that, spot on?
 
2012-10-23 11:59:23 AM

SupplySideJesus: As much as I admire the Mosin, if you're relying on an archaic, fussy, 5-shot bolt gun for the ZA, you're well & truly farked.


Fussy?
You put in ammo, cycle the bolt, and pull the trigger. It fires. Cycle the bolt and pull the trigger again. It fires. Repeat until it's out of ammo.
What's fussy about a Mosin?
 
2012-10-23 11:59:28 AM

JesseL: And even if the US were a signatory to the Hague Conventions, they don't apply to conflicts involving other non-signatories that don't abide by them (like everyone we've been fighting lately).


Where'd you get that silly notion?

www.davejenkins.com
 
2012-10-23 12:00:18 PM

Gdalescrboz: Satanic_Hamster: So.... Bayonets is a talking point.

Romney thinking that Iran and Syria share a boarder and that Iran doesn't have any ocean access isn't.

But remember, the liberal media is out to get Republicans.

Actually, Romney said Syria was a strategic ally of Iran because of their access to the sea; that sea being the Mediterranean, because it significantly decreases the distance traveled by oil tankers. Romneys "gaff" was not explaining it to the voting majority who couldn't pass 6th grade geography. You want to know why politicians are vague when they talk? Because simple shiat like that confuses dumb farks like you, leading you to vote for the oppoent. The last thing they want to do is be specific, the masses would be mind farked. They would feel uncomfortable not understanding what they are hearing and vote for the other guy. You are the lowest common demoninator politicians talk to. Fark. You.


Uhm, talk about rationalization of a poor point. Iran doesn't ship oil through the mediteranian except throught the Suez Canal dumbsh*t.
 
2012-10-23 12:00:29 PM

RedPhoenix122: Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: Fark. You can buy a bayonet lug kit for your Remington 870 on eBay.

That gave me an idea. Did an Amazon search, and yes, it's already begun: Link 

Read (and post) comments.


Amazon reviews are the best.

Buy this. It is excellent. I have never understood why the US decided to cut spending on these bayonets. We are less prepared, militarily, for a horse and bayonet war than we were in 1920!

If we were fighting World War I today, of what use would all of those boats where they land planes be? How could those nuclear boats that go underwater possibly help us in the trenches of Western Europe? So much for all o fthis "strategy". Oohh, so bla bla bal, Bin Laden, bla bla bla, Qadaffi, bla bla bla, no terrorist attack on US soil. Tell that to the Kaiser.
 
2012-10-23 12:00:59 PM

EZ Writer: And some people have a sense of humor and don't take everything so seriously. We also enjoy the occasional LULZ.


Eh.
 
2012-10-23 12:01:40 PM

Dynascape: I have one of these and they're pretty much my main line of defense in a zombie invasion:

[farm3.staticflickr.com image 300x200]


Nice Mosin. I have one as well, no bayonet though. Mine is stored away. Next time I get it out I need to do a good track of exactly what model, year, location of manufacture, etc. I know its one of the full length ones, its huge, and heavy.


I have a DTI AR-15 flat top (red-dot sight, 20 round mag, etc) doing front line duty for me. Along with the Springfield 1911a1 (.45 of course, custom grips & sights) and my Beretta PX4 9mm (daily carry, loaded with Hornady Zombie Max 115gr JHP). Wife carries a Ruger LCP .380 w laser sight.
 
2012-10-23 12:02:24 PM

JusticeandIndependence: Thanks. Does that mean the United States use fewer Bayonets and Horses than in WWI? Does that mean we should have 1,000 ships?


No.

I simply find the recent use of bayonets surprising and interesting.

Anyone who is disputing the President's point (Slate wasn't) is either a dishonest asshole or an idiot (or both).
 
2012-10-23 12:03:05 PM

Gdalescrboz: Actually, Romney said Syria was a strategic ally of Iran because of their access to the sea; that sea being the Mediterranean, because it significantly decreases the distance traveled by oil tankers. Romneys "gaff" was not explaining it to the voting majority who couldn't pass 6th grade geography. You want to know why politicians are vague when they talk? Because simple shiat like that confuses dumb farks like you, leading you to vote for the oppoent. The last thing they want to do is be specific, the masses would be mind farked. They would feel uncomfortable not understanding what they are hearing and vote for the other guy. You are the lowest common demoninator politicians talk to. Fark. You.


So your arguments is that Iranian oil tankers sail through Iraq to Syria and then enter the Mediterranean.
 
2012-10-23 12:03:25 PM

hdhale: Obama's record...as brief as it was in the Senate...regarding military spending generally is he hates it and usually voted against it. He does demonstrate however the adeptness of a contortionist when it came time to take credit and slap himself on the back for getting bin Laden--something done thanks to years of intell work dating back to 2001 and the money spent on equipment and training by the Bush administration on Special Operations forces.

No, Mr. Obama may lecture me any time on the difficulties of growing up as a mixed race child with a mixed religious background. He may also lecture me on the best places to get good food in Chicago. He may never presume to lecture anyone on military issues.



So anyone who disagrees with you is unqualified to do so by virtue of disagreeing with you?
 
2012-10-23 12:04:13 PM

I_Am_Weasel: How about dressage horses with frickin' bayonets attached to their heads?


Pegasus? Is that you?
 
2012-10-23 12:04:37 PM

This text is now purple: Valiente: Bayonet charges were devised to indicate you should really give up or face a gutting. They are in the same class as using a trebuchet to fling corpses over walls.

The bayonet has one primary advantage. You never need to reload it. 

And should you find yourself in a situation where you don't have time to reload, it's generally considered advisable to bring company on your trip to hell.


I just visualized a pissed-off Gurkha with one of these:

www.coldsteel-uk.com

Good for bringing company to hell.

/what is best in life?
 
2012-10-23 12:05:04 PM

The WindowLicker: I deployed with one. The Marine Corps has actually tried to incorporate more training with them in the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (it replaced LINE training).

The Corps even developed a new more awesome bigger bayonet which looks sort of like a k-bar that took steroids. I carried mine with me in Iraq, even on the plane (but they took away my nail clippers). I think I used it to engage a 'steak' that needed turning over on the 'grill' we made out of a 55gallon drum.


That was my general recollection of bayonets as well. I had one, I trained with it, and I carried it with me because it was cool. In a serious battle, there were a million things more I'd have preferred to have over the bayonet. Artillery support, some AH-1 Cobras lurking around, working comms, a gunship, and so on and so forth. Basically if they had a "Trade in your bayonets and your unit gets a Cobra" deal, we'd have taken that deal.

/and then promptly wrecked it, but hey we'd had have an attack helicopter for all of half an hour
 
2012-10-23 12:05:15 PM

hdhale: Obama's record...as brief as it was in the Senate...regarding military spending generally is he hates it


Obamna has had another job since his time in the Senate.

Seriously, you should read up on it. You might learn a thing or two.
 
2012-10-23 12:05:33 PM

JesseL


SupplySideJesus: As much as I admire the Mosin, if you're relying on an archaic, fussy, 5-shot bolt gun for the ZA, you're well & truly farked.

Fussy?
You put in ammo, cycle the bolt, and pull the trigger. It fires. Cycle the bolt and pull the trigger again. It fires. Repeat until it's out of ammo.
What's fussy about a Mosin?


I'm guessing he thinks "sticky bolt" is present in all Mosins.
 
2012-10-23 12:06:01 PM

JesseL: Langdon_777: Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: I was shocked to see a US Army shotgun fitted with a bayonet. Now that is CLOSE combat. My hat's off to anyone who is too close to use a shotgun and has to stab an enemy to death.

I ho[e they were solids and not buckshot, cause the later is (technically LOL) against the something or other Convention ... mmm vaguely remember it starting with 'G' ... Genesis, no that's not right ... nope it escapes me, pretty sure it must be one of those old laws that needs to be removed from the books ... like 'unnatural sex acts'.

Geneva. And no it's not.

Nor is it against the Hague Conventions (which do have something to say about projectiles that cause unnecessary suffering but don't address shotguns shooting shot). And even if it was against the Hague Conventions, the US isn't a signatory to them (we generally abide by them though). And even if the US were a signatory to the Hague Conventions, they don't apply to conflicts involving other non-signatories that don't abide by them (like everyone we've been fighting lately).


Its covered under the bit about 'weapons that cause unnecessary suffering or have INDISCRIMINATE effects' - but like I said its old law ... written back in the days when not only sucking a cock was illegal but going down on your woman. These days we are all fine with UNNECESSARY SUFFERING & even more so with INDISCRIMINATE EFFECTS ... enjoy your blow.
 
2012-10-23 12:06:17 PM

DORMAMU: what_now: Please double down on this, Cons.

Also, can we turn one of these threads into a military pony thread?? please.

[thinklikeahorse.org image 360x244]

As you requested...

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 850x546]


reporting for duty

kpbs.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com

cl.jroo.me

25.media.tumblr.com
 
2012-10-23 12:08:09 PM

hdhale: No, Mr. Obama may lecture me any time on the difficulties of growing up as a mixed race child with a mixed religious background. He may also lecture me on the best places to get good food in Chicago. He may never presume to lecture anyone on military issues.


brucedesilva.files.wordpress.com

"God, I admire you."
 
2012-10-23 12:09:17 PM

All2morrowsparTs: Uhm, talk about rationalization of a poor point. Iran doesn't ship oil through the mediteranian except throught the Suez Canal dumbsh*t.


Dammit man, why'd you have to tell him that. Wanted to see how long the dipshiat would run with it.
 
2012-10-23 12:09:38 PM

The Southern Dandy: JesseL: And even if the US were a signatory to the Hague Conventions, they don't apply to conflicts involving other non-signatories that don't abide by them (like everyone we've been fighting lately).

Where'd you get that silly notion?

[www.davejenkins.com image 500x271]


You're right. We are signatories to some of the Hague Conventions. We're not signatory to the Declaration on the Use of Bullets Which Expand or Flatten Easily in the Human Body; July 29, 1899 though.
 
2012-10-23 12:12:22 PM

Englebert Slaptyback: JesseL

SupplySideJesus: As much as I admire the Mosin, if you're relying on an archaic, fussy, 5-shot bolt gun for the ZA, you're well & truly farked.

Fussy?
You put in ammo, cycle the bolt, and pull the trigger. It fires. Cycle the bolt and pull the trigger again. It fires. Repeat until it's out of ammo.
What's fussy about a Mosin?


I'm guessing he thinks "sticky bolt" is present in all Mosins.


It's not all Mosins. It's some Mosins and some ammo.

Even if the bolt is sticky, if it's a problem for you that's just a sign that you're not fit to survive.
 
2012-10-23 12:12:34 PM

The WindowLicker: WMCB: I used my bayonet to probe for mines. They didn't work well, so I switched to my other large knife, which worked better.

/mine clearing is a weird job

I hope your other large knife was made out of titanium, plastic, or another non-ferrous material.

/Mine clearing IS a weird job, and it is even more weird when you use the wrong tools.


Here is the perfect kit for clearing mimes:

farm3.static.flickr.com 

Oh, wait, MINES. Scratch what I just said.
 
2012-10-23 12:12:36 PM
All2morrowsparTs Smartest
Funniest
2012-10-23 12:00:18 PM


Gdalescrboz: Satanic_Hamster: So.... Bayonets is a talking point.

Romney thinking that Iran and Syria share a boarder and that Iran doesn't have any ocean access isn't.

But remember, the liberal media is out to get Republicans.

Actually, Romney said Syria was a strategic ally of Iran because of their access to the sea; that sea being the Mediterranean, because it significantly decreases the distance traveled by oil tankers. Romneys "gaff" was not explaining it to the voting majority who couldn't pass 6th grade geography. You want to know why politicians are vague when they talk? Because simple shiat like that confuses dumb farks like you, leading you to vote for the oppoent. The last thing they want to do is be specific, the masses would be mind farked. They would feel uncomfortable not understanding what they are hearing and vote for the other guy. You are the lowest common demoninator politicians talk to. Fark. You.

Uhm, talk about rationalization of a poor point. Iran doesn't ship oil through the mediteranian except throught the Suez Canal dumbsh*t.


So if they built an oil-pipeline through Syria guess what they wouldnt have to go through? Dumbshiat
 
2012-10-23 12:12:41 PM

ha-ha-guy: The WindowLicker: I deployed with one. The Marine Corps has actually tried to incorporate more training with them in the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (it replaced LINE training).

The Corps even developed a new more awesome bigger bayonet which looks sort of like a k-bar that took steroids. I carried mine with me in Iraq, even on the plane (but they took away my nail clippers). I think I used it to engage a 'steak' that needed turning over on the 'grill' we made out of a 55gallon drum.

That was my general recollection of bayonets as well. I had one, I trained with it, and I carried it with me because it was cool. In a serious battle, there were a million things more I'd have preferred to have over the bayonet. Artillery support, some AH-1 Cobras lurking around, working comms, a gunship, and so on and so forth. Basically if they had a "Trade in your bayonets and your unit gets a Cobra" deal, we'd have taken that deal.

/and then promptly wrecked it, but hey we'd had have an attack helicopter for all of half an hour


We were all issued them but it wasn't unit SOP to carry on the Molle. Generally they wound up in the bin filled with tons of other issued equipment you never use. Some people affixed it to their vests but that was more of a joke at how antiquated their chain of command were operating. By far the coolest peice of equipment issued was the tomahawk. Obama should hold one of those up and state we don't need bayonets now that we have these.
 
2012-10-23 12:13:42 PM

The WindowLicker: IAmRight: Yup. But '03-'07.

There are probably more training "bayonets" than there are actual bayonets. I do recall seeing them on armory inventory, though, even though no one ever used them.

/never learned to affix one to a rifle/remove one from a rifle or anything like that.

I deployed with one. The Marine Corps has actually tried to incorporate more training with them in the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (it replaced LINE training).

The Corps even developed a new more awesome bigger bayonet which looks sort of like a k-bar that took steroids. I carried mine with me in Iraq, even on the plane (but they took away my nail clippers). I think I used it to engage a 'steak' that needed turning over on the 'grill' we made out of a 55gallon drum.

That said, the President was right. We need to spend our money more intelligently. Knives on the end of our rifles are not as tactically important as they once were. Functional satellite communications are key. We don't need to buy 2,000 more tanks. We are not using all the ones we have already. We need to spend the money on our tactical and strategic needs. President Obama had an ironclad point. There is no way for Romney to defend his position. (maybe if he had some more battleships...)


I dunno. I kind of disagree insofar as reducing the size of the Navy goes. Up til last time I checked, we have 48 combat brigades but if we're drawing down in Afghanistan and Iraq then it makes sense to downsize that aspect of our defense.

However, China is busy feuding with the neighbors (folks we have defense treaties with) over islands in the neighborhood, still lays claim to Taiwan and recently completed sea trials of their first blue water carrier. The very fact that:

1./ We are bracketed by two oceans
2./ Those we identify as likely enemies reside on the other sides of those oceans

...seems to suggest that having a strong and competent Navy might not be a bad idea. Yes, I know about the Air Force, cruise missiles, etc. But the same way you end up perhaps wanting a bayonet is the same reason you have a battleship or a carrier air group: sometimes the long range, surgical munitions we can launch from home don't get the job done and we need to physically sail over there and plant boot in ass to make sure. That requires ships.

Romney's kind of a turd but he's not altogether wrong on this and Obama trying to make a slick, wisecrack about horses and bayonets kind of suggests he's not addressing actual points but rather is trying to score debate points (which, being a debate, you should probably expect, I suppose).
 
2012-10-23 12:15:12 PM

Harry Freakstorm: Never march with a bunch of airmen with bayonets. They bunch up. They move their rifle arm. You have to watch the bayonet right in front of you, bouncing and weaving like a metal cobra about to strike.


That really made me giggle
 
2012-10-23 12:15:22 PM

FlashHarry: A) the point he was making is that what constituted appropriate military technology 100 years ago often doesn't constitute appropriate military technology today
B) he said "fewer" bayonets, not "no bayonets." so, yes, the marines still train with them. but he was right both semantically and in the broader sense of his point.
C) arguing this only highlights what an "oh, snap" moment it was and keeps it in the news cycle. a smart person would move on. but then nobody ever accused republicans of being smart.


i121.photobucket.com
 
2012-10-23 12:15:32 PM

Gdalescrboz: So if they built an oil-pipeline through Syria guess what they wouldnt have to go through? Dumbshiat


Good point.

Also if they had a secret Mars base and nuclear inter-planetary missiles, they could rain atomic warheads down upon our heads.,
 
2012-10-23 12:16:14 PM
Just so I understand, when Romney uses the phrase "binder full of women" the media can't understand the underlying meaning in the message and it's hilarious, but when Obama stated his position about bayonet use and the conservative media is essentially making the same case, it's an outrage?
 
2012-10-23 12:17:47 PM

JesseL


It's not all Mosins. It's some Mosins and some ammo.

Even if the bolt is sticky, if it's a problem for you that's just a sign that you're not fit to survive.


It's not all Mosins? Really? Gosh, thanks. :-|

Learn to read: *I* didn't say it was all Mosins, I was speculating on what the guy who called Mosins "fussy" was thinking.

Typically it's the Mosins that have not had all the cosmo removed (or been cleaned in general) and/or have been used with lacquered ammo.

BTW, I think you and I were the ones who advised Dynascape on M-Ns before he bought his.
 
2012-10-23 12:19:23 PM

Ebbelwoi: I can't see replacing the bayonet assault course with more PT. They ran us through three times and we were exhasted. Great fun though.


hell yeah, people don't realize how exhausting that can be. I think we only did it twice (it was the same day as the gas chamber, as I recall).
 
2012-10-23 12:22:27 PM

Gdalescrboz: All2morrowsparTs Smartest
Funniest
2012-10-23 12:00:18 PM


Gdalescrboz: Satanic_Hamster: So.... Bayonets is a talking point.

Romney thinking that Iran and Syria share a boarder and that Iran doesn't have any ocean access isn't.

But remember, the liberal media is out to get Republicans.

Actually, Romney said Syria was a strategic ally of Iran because of their access to the sea; that sea being the Mediterranean, because it significantly decreases the distance traveled by oil tankers. Romneys "gaff" was not explaining it to the voting majority who couldn't pass 6th grade geography. You want to know why politicians are vague when they talk? Because simple shiat like that confuses dumb farks like you, leading you to vote for the oppoent. The last thing they want to do is be specific, the masses would be mind farked. They would feel uncomfortable not understanding what they are hearing and vote for the other guy. You are the lowest common demoninator politicians talk to. Fark. You.

Uhm, talk about rationalization of a poor point. Iran doesn't ship oil through the mediteranian except throught the Suez Canal dumbsh*t.

So if they built an oil-pipeline through Syria guess what they wouldnt have to go through? Dumbshiat


If they built an oil-pipeline through Syria (which doesn't boarder Iran) to your mother's anus, would that mean they have a shorter route to come out of her vagina? Until they actually build a pipeline through Turkey/Iraq to Syria, the point is moot. They already have ocean access.

Syria is as much as their access to the ocean as Turkey in the fact that it isn't.

You're stretching to back argue into an incorrect talking point. The smart thing to do is just to drop it; you don't even have to concede that you're wrong. Just drop it and walk away. There's no need for further bloodshed. Just walk away.
 
2012-10-23 12:22:42 PM

craig328: The WindowLicker: IAmRight: Yup. But '03-'07.

There are probably more training "bayonets" than there are actual bayonets. I do recall seeing them on armory inventory, though, even though no one ever used them.

/never learned to affix one to a rifle/remove one from a rifle or anything like that.

I deployed with one. The Marine Corps has actually tried to incorporate more training with them in the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (it replaced LINE training).

The Corps even developed a new more awesome bigger bayonet which looks sort of like a k-bar that took steroids. I carried mine with me in Iraq, even on the plane (but they took away my nail clippers). I think I used it to engage a 'steak' that needed turning over on the 'grill' we made out of a 55gallon drum.

That said, the President was right. We need to spend our money more intelligently. Knives on the end of our rifles are not as tactically important as they once were. Functional satellite communications are key. We don't need to buy 2,000 more tanks. We are not using all the ones we have already. We need to spend the money on our tactical and strategic needs. President Obama had an ironclad point. There is no way for Romney to defend his position. (maybe if he had some more battleships...)

I dunno. I kind of disagree insofar as reducing the size of the Navy goes. Up til last time I checked, we have 48 combat brigades but if we're drawing down in Afghanistan and Iraq then it makes sense to downsize that aspect of our defense.

However, China is busy feuding with the neighbors (folks we have defense treaties with) over islands in the neighborhood, still lays claim to Taiwan and recently completed sea trials of their first blue water carrier. The very fact that:

1./ We are bracketed by two oceans
2./ Those we identify as likely enemies reside on the other sides of those oceans

...seems to suggest that having a strong and competent Navy might not be a bad idea. Yes, I know about the Air F ...


Pretty sure you still rock on the Mutually Assured Destruction (lets turn the planet into a green glass carpark :D
 
2012-10-23 12:23:12 PM

Harry Freakstorm: I was in the Indiana Air National Guard and we were marching in Brazil (you just pronounced it wrong) Indiana.


Just out of curiosity, how do you pronounce it? BRAY-zel?
 
2012-10-23 12:23:28 PM

oldfarthenry: A friend of mine was a British soldier in the Falklands war. The fog was so thick during one battle that they decided on a bayonet charge.
He still has PTSD/screaming nightmares about it to this very day.


If he only had a brilliant and cunning plan that he could use he might have been OK.


i.telegraph.co.uk
 
2012-10-23 12:23:55 PM

Langdon_777: JesseL: Langdon_777: Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: I was shocked to see a US Army shotgun fitted with a bayonet. Now that is CLOSE combat. My hat's off to anyone who is too close to use a shotgun and has to stab an enemy to death.

I ho[e they were solids and not buckshot, cause the later is (technically LOL) against the something or other Convention ... mmm vaguely remember it starting with 'G' ... Genesis, no that's not right ... nope it escapes me, pretty sure it must be one of those old laws that needs to be removed from the books ... like 'unnatural sex acts'.

Geneva. And no it's not.

Nor is it against the Hague Conventions (which do have something to say about projectiles that cause unnecessary suffering but don't address shotguns shooting shot). And even if it was against the Hague Conventions, the US isn't a signatory to them (we generally abide by them though). And even if the US were a signatory to the Hague Conventions, they don't apply to conflicts involving other non-signatories that don't abide by them (like everyone we've been fighting lately).

Its covered under the bit about 'weapons that cause unnecessary suffering or have INDISCRIMINATE effects' - but like I said its old law ... written back in the days when not only sucking a cock was illegal but going down on your woman. These days we are all fine with UNNECESSARY SUFFERING & even more so with INDISCRIMINATE EFFECTS ... enjoy your blow.


I can tell you that we've been using shotguns (loaded with buckshot) in warfare for a very long time.

WWI:
media.liveauctiongroup.net

WWII:
img413.imageshack.us

Vietnam:
www.shootingillustrated.com

Iraq:
upload.wikimedia.org

The only time the question of legality was brought up it was by Germany: Link
 
2012-10-23 12:24:49 PM

craig328: The WindowLicker: IAmRight: Yup. But '03-'07.

There are probably more training "bayonets" than there are actual bayonets. I do recall seeing them on armory inventory, though, even though no one ever used them.

/never learned to affix one to a rifle/remove one from a rifle or anything like that.

I deployed with one. The Marine Corps has actually tried to incorporate more training with them in the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (it replaced LINE training).

The Corps even developed a new more awesome bigger bayonet which looks sort of like a k-bar that took steroids. I carried mine with me in Iraq, even on the plane (but they took away my nail clippers). I think I used it to engage a 'steak' that needed turning over on the 'grill' we made out of a 55gallon drum.

That said, the President was right. We need to spend our money more intelligently. Knives on the end of our rifles are not as tactically important as they once were. Functional satellite communications are key. We don't need to buy 2,000 more tanks. We are not using all the ones we have already. We need to spend the money on our tactical and strategic needs. President Obama had an ironclad point. There is no way for Romney to defend his position. (maybe if he had some more battleships...)

I dunno. I kind of disagree insofar as reducing the size of the Navy goes. Up til last time I checked, we have 48 combat brigades but if we're drawing down in Afghanistan and Iraq then it makes sense to downsize that aspect of our defense.

However, China is busy feuding with the neighbors (folks we have defense treaties with) over islands in the neighborhood, still lays claim to Taiwan and recently completed sea trials of their first blue water carrier. The very fact that:

1./ We are bracketed by two oceans
2./ Those we identify as likely enemies reside on the other sides of those oceans

...seems to suggest that having a strong and competent Navy might not be a bad idea. Yes, I know about the Air F ...


You have enough ships to get the job done already. You have twice as many carriers as the rest of the world combined, and significantly stronger naval assets than any potential enemy. Anything your navy cannot handle now would probably still be impossible even if it were 10% larger. You are acting like Obama wants to significantly reduce the size of the navy - his policies do not say that, and the size of the navy has grown under his watch. Really think you're missing the point of all of this.
 
2012-10-23 12:25:41 PM

Englebert Slaptyback: JesseL

It's not all Mosins. It's some Mosins and some ammo.

Even if the bolt is sticky, if it's a problem for you that's just a sign that you're not fit to survive.


It's not all Mosins? Really? Gosh, thanks. :-|

Learn to read: *I* didn't say it was all Mosins, I was speculating on what the guy who called Mosins "fussy" was thinking.

Typically it's the Mosins that have not had all the cosmo removed (or been cleaned in general) and/or have been used with lacquered ammo.

BTW, I think you and I were the ones who advised Dynascape on M-Ns before he bought his.


I didn't mean to offend. I was just addressing the point you had raised, not you yourself.
 
2012-10-23 12:27:07 PM

darth_badger: oldfarthenry: A friend of mine was a British soldier in the Falklands war. The fog was so thick during one battle that they decided on a bayonet charge.
He still has PTSD/screaming nightmares about it to this very day.

If he only had a brilliant and cunning plan that he could use he might have been OK.


[i.telegraph.co.uk image 620x388]


I didn't like that ending - it was my fav BA series :(
 
2012-10-23 12:27:20 PM

hdhale: gerrymander: hdhale: /look it was a silly point on Obama's part...last I heard that 70% of the Earth's surface was covered in water and those carriers he talked about still need support ships...LOTS of support ships...the last thing we need is a smaller navy

The real problem for Obama's scornful 'argument' is that The US Navy has fewer ships than the Admiralty recommends it have to do its job. The current fleet is 287 ships, the recommendation is for 313. Since no one is recommending we build anything but the most technologically-capable fleet, Obama's comment was a back-handed slap by a sitting Commander-in-Chief to his own highest-level naval staff.

Obama's record...as brief as it was in the Senate...regarding military spending generally is he hates it and usually voted against it. He does demonstrate however the adeptness of a contortionist when it came time to take credit and slap himself on the back for getting bin Laden--something done thanks to years of intell work dating back to 2001 and the money spent on equipment and training by the Bush administration on Special Operations forces.

No, Mr. Obama may lecture me any time on the difficulties of growing up as a mixed race child with a mixed religious background. He may also lecture me on the best places to get good food in Chicago. He may never presume to lecture anyone on military issues.


You can have your own opinions but you can't have your own facts. The CIA shut down the unit hunting OBL in 2007. Obama re-opened it when he took office. but for that unit we would not have found and therefore killed OBL. the end.
 
2012-10-23 12:31:16 PM

Gdalescrboz: All2morrowsparTs Smartest
Funniest
2012-10-23 12:00:18 PM


So if they built an oil-pipeline through Syria guess what they wouldnt have to go through? Dumbshiat


Which would take how many years, through three countries-two of which probably can't import that amount of steel due to sanctions, one of which is an active war zone, and none of which has the local talent to actually design and build a few hundred mile-long pipeline and the pumping stations it would require?

What is your point again?
 
2012-10-23 12:31:40 PM

JesseL: Langdon_777: JesseL: Langdon_777: Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: I was shocked to see a US Army shotgun fitted with a bayonet. Now that is CLOSE combat. My hat's off to anyone who is too close to use a shotgun and has to stab an enemy to death.

I ho[e they were solids and not buckshot, cause the later is (technically LOL) against the something or other Convention ... mmm vaguely remember it starting with 'G' ... Genesis, no that's not right ... nope it escapes me, pretty sure it must be one of those old laws that needs to be removed from the books ... like 'unnatural sex acts'.

Geneva. And no it's not.

Nor is it against the Hague Conventions (which do have something to say about projectiles that cause unnecessary suffering but don't address shotguns shooting shot). And even if it was against the Hague Conventions, the US isn't a signatory to them (we generally abide by them though). And even if the US were a signatory to the Hague Conventions, they don't apply to conflicts involving other non-signatories that don't abide by them (like everyone we've been fighting lately).

Its covered under the bit about 'weapons that cause unnecessary suffering or have INDISCRIMINATE effects' - but like I said its old law ... written back in the days when not only sucking a cock was illegal but going down on your woman. These days we are all fine with UNNECESSARY SUFFERING & even more so with INDISCRIMINATE EFFECTS ... enjoy your blow.

I can tell you that we've been using shotguns (loaded with buckshot) in warfare for a very long time.

WWI:
[media.liveauctiongroup.net image 850x191]

WWII:
[img413.imageshack.us image 850x300]

Vietnam:
[www.shootingillustrated.com image 640x410]

Iraq:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 660x599]

The only time the question of legality was brought up it was by Germany: Link


Back in the bad ole days (meaning when the GC was actually respected) they were almost purely a special forces weapon (though lets go further back ... imagine if one of the cowboys in a "I shall see you at noon in the main street" event rocked up with a shotgun instead of a pistol....hero or wanker?
 
2012-10-23 12:32:01 PM

Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: I was shocked to see a US Army shotgun fitted with a bayonet. Now that is CLOSE combat. My hat's off to anyone who is too close to use a shotgun and has to stab an enemy to death.


Stab, THEN shoot.

Also helpful for door breaching.
 
2012-10-23 12:32:16 PM
realityblog.org
 
2012-10-23 12:34:52 PM

JesseL


I didn't mean to offend. I was just addressing the point you had raised, not you yourself.


No offense taken. I thought you had misinterpreted what I wrote, but probably should have responded without the sarcasm. :-)
 
2012-10-23 12:35:08 PM

The Southern Dandy: JesseL: And even if the US were a signatory to the Hague Conventions, they don't apply to conflicts involving other non-signatories that don't abide by them (like everyone we've been fighting lately).

Where'd you get that silly notion?


CITATION PROVIDED:

"The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.

The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.

It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power. "


Signatories of the Hague Convention include the United States of America. Afghanistan is not a signatory, so even if you consider the Taliban to be the lawful controlling power of that country unjustly in exile due to the depredations of NATO, it's perfectly legal to shoot a Taliban combatant with a hollowpoint.

Also, non-state-actors are not considered to be signatory either, so there's no problem shooting a Somali pirate for two reasons: 1) Somalia is not a signatory and 2) even if it was, Somalia would have to claim the pirate was acting under the command of the government of Somalia.
 
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