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(CBC)   Armstrong stripped of Tour de France titles, Moon Landing   (cbc.ca) divider line 483
    More: News, Tour de France, UCI, Court of Arbitration for Sport, Johan Bruyneel, Contador, Andy Schleck, Floyd Landis, Pat McQuaid  
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7318 clicks; posted to Sports » on 22 Oct 2012 at 8:44 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-22 08:44:54 AM
Good, fark that scum fark.
 
2012-10-22 08:44:57 AM
Armstrong stripped of Tour de France Titles, staged Moon Landing
 
2012-10-22 08:45:12 AM
Now I can finally say I've won as many Tour de France races as Lance Armstrong
 
2012-10-22 08:45:19 AM
Nobody could win 7 consecutive Titles without a little outside help.
 
2012-10-22 08:45:49 AM
fark cheaters.
 
2012-10-22 08:45:50 AM
I'll be interested to see how hard they go after the winnings. That should tell you a lot about how much of a witch hunt this is..
 
2012-10-22 08:46:01 AM
what a wonderful world.
 
2012-10-22 08:46:31 AM
How can they accuse him of cheating if he never failed a doping test?
 
2012-10-22 08:47:24 AM
He's such a good guy with such a compelling story that it's such a shame he has to go out this way. He took a sport few people care about and really exploded the amount of attention that it got, and now, to find out he'd been cheating, it's such a letdown.
 
2012-10-22 08:47:27 AM
Livestrong Lance, and always go ball out in everything you do.

/jackass
//smug motherfarker too
 
2012-10-22 08:47:28 AM
The medals will go to racers who's doping hasn't been caught yet.
 
2012-10-22 08:47:37 AM

pag1107: fark cheaters.


If everyone is doing it, is it still cheating? If you prick him, does he not leak HGH?
 
2012-10-22 08:47:47 AM
Okay, so this means that they are 100% sure that everyone else is clean and Lance was the only cheater right? Right?

Yea, that's what I thought.
 
2012-10-22 08:47:54 AM
LiveDope strong
 
2012-10-22 08:48:45 AM
Don't you tools still feel smug wearing those sheep tags...er, Livestrong[tm] bracelets? You know, for "cancer awareness" that gave nothing to research but mostly into his pocket?

P. T. Barnum wins again.
 
2012-10-22 08:48:52 AM
Lie Strong
 
2012-10-22 08:49:07 AM

jchic: Okay, so this means that they are 100% sure that everyone else is clean and Lance was the only cheater right? Right?

Yea, that's what I thought.


You don't win 7 titles in a row by playing fair-and-square.

Two...MAYBE 3 Titles I can buy. But 7 in a row? Not unless you're cheating
 
2012-10-22 08:49:10 AM

destrip: How can they accuse him of cheating if he never failed a doping test?


Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

/or something
 
2012-10-22 08:49:33 AM
Does anyone really think the guys who finished second, third, and fourth in all those races weren't doping as well?
 
2012-10-22 08:49:44 AM
In before the Lance apologists
 
2012-10-22 08:50:26 AM

destrip: How can they accuse him of cheating if he never failed a doping test?


If you kill a series of people in cold blood but have the good sense to destroy all physical evidence linking you to the crimes, you better believe you'll be convicted if five years later a dozen credible witnesses come forward to testify to your guilt, in detail.
 
2012-10-22 08:50:48 AM

Sybarite: Does anyone really think the guys who finished second, third, and fourth in all those races weren't doping as well?


Only if it was the same guys SEVEN YEARS IN A ROW.
 
2012-10-22 08:50:53 AM

Obama4Life: Nobody could win 7 consecutive Titles without a little outside help.


Bill Russell looks at you askance.
 
2012-10-22 08:50:58 AM
Meh, he doped in a sport where EVERYONE dopes. He just doped better than everyone else..and the French were pissed that a dirty American won 7 straight.
 
2012-10-22 08:51:11 AM

destrip: How can they accuse him of cheating if he never failed a doping test?


Because he did fail tests when they tested with modern technology?

Doping is always ahead of testing. Plus, he had a doctor help him cheat the tests.
 
2012-10-22 08:51:16 AM

destrip: How can they accuse him of cheating if he never failed a doping test?


Don't worry about that. They know what is best. For everyone involved. Including Honey Boo Boo.
 
2012-10-22 08:51:30 AM
BIIIIIIIIIIII-cycle

BIIIIIIIIIIII-cycle

BIIIIIIIIIIII-cycle

I want to ride my bicycle I want to ride my biiiike I want to ride my biCYCLE I want to ride it where I liiiiiiiike

but i can't because I got buuuuuuuusted!
 
2012-10-22 08:51:34 AM
What a f*cking liar. I knew that damn testicular cancer thing was a cover-up! He had one of his balls surgically removed to be a more competitive cyclist! His junk could then all flop to the same side when biking, allowing him to sprint more easily than those with both testicles!!

!!!!
 
2012-10-22 08:51:57 AM

To The Escape Zeppelin!: The medals will go to racers who's doping hasn't been caught yet.


So, no one? Didn't just about the entire field get caught those years?
 
2012-10-22 08:52:16 AM
Who knows where the truth is.
Sad.
 
2012-10-22 08:52:22 AM
It seems like he was just a better athlete than the other cheaters. From what I gather, a large percentage of these people cheat. So if everyone is cheating, and Lance won, HE'S STILL AWESOME!
 
2012-10-22 08:52:35 AM

FinFangFark: Meh, he doped in a sport where EVERYONE dopes. He just doped better than everyone else..and the French were pissed that a dirty American won 7 straight.


The United States Anti-Doping Agency is French? Why don't they rename it to the French Anti-Doping Agency? Why the confusing name?
 
2012-10-22 08:53:09 AM
Tour de France is a harsh mistress
/Link
 
2012-10-22 08:53:12 AM

lohphat: Don't you tools still feel smug wearing those sheep tags...er, Livestrong[tm] bracelets? You know, for "cancer awareness" that gave nothing to research but mostly into his pocket?

P. T. Barnum wins again.


I am not sure if you are a moron or trolling...
 
2012-10-22 08:54:19 AM
At least he still has The Ocho.
 
2012-10-22 08:54:20 AM

intotheabyss81: Livestrong Lance, and always go ball out in everything you do.

/jackass
//smug motherfarker too


That was always my impression of him, too. In interviews I've seen with him, he's just always seemed like kind of an arrogant dick.

/He dumped Cheryl as soon as she announced she had breast cancer.
//Stay classy, Lance.
 
2012-10-22 08:54:28 AM

starsrift: Who knows where the truth is.


500 piss tests come back clean. You can't retroactively change the rules.
 
2012-10-22 08:54:40 AM

TeamEd: destrip: How can they accuse him of cheating if he never failed a doping test?

If you kill a series of people in cold blood but have the good sense to destroy all physical evidence linking you to the crimes, you better believe you'll be convicted if five years later a dozen credible witnesses come forward to testify to your guilt, in detail.


/especially if you choose not to fight the charges
 
2012-10-22 08:55:44 AM
In before the Lance haters.... Oh. Too late. Everyone hates a winner.
 
2012-10-22 08:55:50 AM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: destrip: How can they accuse him of cheating if he never failed a doping test?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

/or something


For serious!

/Sad because I had cancer too
//I took steroids to regain weight, I'd still be in last place if I tried any competitive sport
 
2012-10-22 08:56:26 AM
So, are they awarding the title to anyone for those years, or just recording no winner? If I recall correctly, every one of the runners-up during that period has been involved in doping of his own.
 
2012-10-22 08:56:38 AM
Dude had cancer 16 years ago and still alive.
/WINNING
 
2012-10-22 08:56:45 AM
i just wanna let anyone who uses his charities to somehow defend his cheating that that is a insult to the character of those who would have won if there was no doping in the tour de france, as it assumes they would not be as generous. good deeds do not absolve you of bad deeds. especially if you dont admit to them.
 
2012-10-22 08:56:54 AM
LOL. Only two of the top ten finishers in 2003 didn't get busted.
 
2012-10-22 08:57:17 AM
i.imgur.com
 
2012-10-22 08:57:36 AM
hopefully this will reduce the number of douchebag cyclists using roads for exercise equipment and inconveniencing everyone else as they do it.
 
2012-10-22 08:58:08 AM

earthwirm: In before the Lance haters.... Oh. Too late. Everyone hates a winner.


You sound Republican.
 
2012-10-22 08:58:16 AM

ripple123: those who would have won if there was no doping in the tour de france


of the 45 riders on the podium between 1996 and 2010, 36 were by cyclists "similarly tainted by doping."

:-/
 
2012-10-22 08:58:36 AM

dr_blasto: LOL. Only two of the top ten finishers in 2003 didn't get busted.


Ding ding ding. We have a winner.

Armstrong wasn't given any real advantage.
 
2012-10-22 08:58:38 AM

machoprogrammer: In before the Lance apologists


I won't apologize for him.

However no one gave a crap about cycling before him and no one will likely give a crap about the sport after him.

In between his influence generated millions upon millions for bike manufacturers, clothing makers, membership fees for bicycle race orgs and Christ knows what else.

It's a dumb move to shorten that gravy train a single day longer than it needed to be. For the sake of all parties involved investigations should have concluded for everyone racing, organizing and coaching before they'd outed him.

I know....I know. "Bicycling doesn't need a cheater." Sure. Right. Like the past fifteen years of near light-speed advancements in cycling would have happened without him on the merits of a sport no one gave a shiat about.

Keep thinking that. It'll be important to remember when they're tearing down the velodrome to make way for a skate park.
 
2012-10-22 08:59:12 AM

Headso: hopefully this will reduce the number of douchebag cyclists using roads for exercise equipment and inconveniencing everyone else as they do it.


And spare us the inappropriate use of Spandex.
 
2012-10-22 08:59:20 AM
So how much of an edge does doping give you anyway? Are we talking a few seconds, minutes, hours, or how do you measure this sort of thing?
 
2012-10-22 09:00:12 AM

earthwirm: In before the Lance haters.... Oh. Too late. Everyone hates a winner.


There's a a lot of smug whining in this thread. I glad you all attribute such high morals to riding a goddam bicycle. Get over it. Winners take every advantage and bend every rule. If you you're not cheating, you're not trying. Period.
 
2012-10-22 09:00:53 AM
I've remember when the french cycling federation accused Lance Armstrong for using performance-enhancing drugs, a horde of americans quickly came up with a bunch of conspiracy theories and repeatedly insulted France.

Now the US anti-doping agency points out the exact same conclusions and I hear no apology being given to France and the french.
 
2012-10-22 09:01:09 AM

ripple123: i just wanna let anyone who uses his charities to somehow defend his cheating that that is a insult to the character of those who would have won if there was no doping in the tour de france, as it assumes they would not be as generous. good deeds do not absolve you of bad deeds. especially if you dont admit to them.


And, 2005 has only two of the top ten listed as not being busted for PEDs. I'm not certain that defending the character of those who would have won if there was no doping applies as it seems like the only cyclists not using PEDs are the ones commuting to work on a bike.

Bicycles: the new gateway drug.
 
2012-10-22 09:02:30 AM

doglover: ripple123: those who would have won if there was no doping in the tour de france

of the 45 riders on the podium between 1996 and 2010, 36 were by cyclists "similarly tainted by doping."

:-/


well doglover, i guess that means its probably the guy in 40th or something place whos the actual, deserving, honest and genuine sportsman. my hat off to whoever that person is. and fark the rest.
 
2012-10-22 09:04:22 AM

drewsclues: earthwirm: In before the Lance haters.... Oh. Too late. Everyone hates a winner.

There's a a lot of smug whining in this thread. I glad you all attribute such high morals to riding a goddam bicycle. Get over it. Winners take every advantage and bend every rule. If you you're not cheating, you're not trying. Period.


You sound Conservative.
 
2012-10-22 09:04:31 AM
i1151.photobucket.com
Gig's up, Lance! Strip out of that spacesuit and GTFO!
 
2012-10-22 09:04:45 AM

jchic: Okay, so this means that they are 100% sure that everyone else is clean and Lance was the only cheater right? Right?

Yea, that's what I thought.



images.cheezburger.com
 
2012-10-22 09:04:59 AM
The titles are going to nobody. 1999-2005 will go down as having no winner.
 
2012-10-22 09:07:13 AM

pag1107: fark cheaters.


What about farking non-cheaters? Just sanction it all. You wanna pound HGH into your bloodstream while you train? Go ahead. You don't? Prepare to come in 10th or lower no matter how hard you train.

Just open the doors completely. idk... it's Professional Athletics. There's a lot more at stake than honor.
 
2012-10-22 09:07:39 AM
He cheated, and was stripped of all his titles, which is right.

The most of the rest of the field also cheated, and so no one will ever know how far down that first guy who didn't cheat is, which is sad.

I feel most sorry for those who thought he was a hero... he very nearly was. But to allow him to get away with it would only encourage another generation to try to get away with cheating. Athletes must know that if they cheat they WILL get caught, if not now, then eventually, and everyone will know.
 
2012-10-22 09:07:45 AM
This is the epitome of the saying "If is seems too good to be true...."
 
2012-10-22 09:09:04 AM

Obama4Life: jchic: Okay, so this means that they are 100% sure that everyone else is clean and Lance was the only cheater right? Right?

Yea, that's what I thought.

You don't win 7 titles in a row by playing fair-and-square.

Two...MAYBE 3 Titles I can buy. But 7 in a row? Not unless you're cheating


I thought your comment said Four Square, and I was about to get angry. I am a bad ass in Four Square, and I don't cheat.

/still living the glory days of 5th grade
 
2012-10-22 09:09:30 AM

destrip: How can they accuse him of cheating if he never failed a doping test?


And we're done.
(not really, but we should be.)

All of the evidence is circumstantial at best. Guilt by association is not evidence. If he used, I'm all for stripping his titles. But come up with better evidence than disgruntled non-winners and "because he was around other users, he must have used" crap.
 
2012-10-22 09:09:34 AM

ripple123: doglover: ripple123: those who would have won if there was no doping in the tour de france

of the 45 riders on the podium between 1996 and 2010, 36 were by cyclists "similarly tainted by doping."

:-/

well doglover, i guess that means its probably the guy in 40th or something place whos the actual, deserving, honest and genuine sportsman. my hat off to whoever that person is. and fark the rest.


I would bet that "actual honest sportsman"=guy who doesn't get hired onto a team.
 
2012-10-22 09:09:43 AM

Skarekrough: However no one gave a crap about cycling before him and no one will likely give a crap about the sport after him.


startwithtypewriters.com
3 time Tour de France winner and former Taco Bell pitchman Greg Lemond may beg to differ. Just because you yourself don't remember something doesn't mean it didn't hapen.
 
2012-10-22 09:10:07 AM

TheVeryDeadIanMartin: So how much of an edge does doping give you anyway? Are we talking a few seconds, minutes, hours, or how do you measure this sort of thing?


It depends. In some things, not much, in others? A ton. There's one climb on a stage that shows up on the Tour de France pretty regularly and it's a really tough climb. This year the fastest time from start to finish of the climb was in the ball park of abut 54 minutes. Armstrong at one point did the climb in 46 minutes. And starting in the mind 90s the time for the climb started going down awful fast, far faster than one would expect simply from improved training and bicycles. And then a few years back the times shot right back up. The improvement in times in the mid to late 90s was a greater improvement than had been seen in the previous 20 years, a time where the design and construction of racing bicycles advanced by leaps and bounds and training was also much improved. And there were cyclists who had no business doing the climb in 52 or 53 minutes doing it that fast. When riders who aren't seen as particularly good climbers are finishing one of the toughest climbs on the Tour faster than previous riders who were seen as exceptional climbers, yeah something is up.
 
2012-10-22 09:10:34 AM

Obama4Life: Nobody could win 7 consecutive Titles without a little outside help.


Which is why they should investigate Michael Schumacher. He must have been injecting nitrous oxide into his engine.

/derp
 
2012-10-22 09:10:36 AM

markfara: That was always my impression of him, too. In interviews I've seen with him, he's just always seemed like kind of an arrogant dick.

/He dumped Cheryl as soon as she announced she had breast cancer.
//Stay classy, Lance.


Not quite. She wanted to marry and have kids right away, and Lance Armstrong wasn't particularly inclined to that.

You may accuse him of being a douche for not getting married agains his wishes, but breast cancer had nothign to do with it.
 
2012-10-22 09:10:46 AM
Whatever.

maggoo: I've remember when the french cycling federation accused Lance Armstrong for using performance-enhancing drugs, a horde of americans quickly came up with a bunch of conspiracy theories and repeatedly insulted France.

Now the US anti-doping agency points out the exact same conclusions and I hear no apology being given to France and the french.


DIAF surrender monkeys... You too maggoo.
 
2012-10-22 09:10:49 AM
I guess the saddest part is that the sport and the Tour will be hurt the most. It's like finding out Michael Jordan cheated and then was stripped of his titles.

//From what I understand, Cycling during this period was like Major League Baseball in the 90's.
 
2012-10-22 09:11:07 AM
If you prick us, do we not bleed?

if you tickle us, do we not laugh?

if you poison us, do we not die?

.....and if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?
 
2012-10-22 09:11:15 AM
FTFA: "The agency said 20 of the 21 riders on the podium in the Tour from 1999 through 2005 have been "directly tied to likely doping through admissions, sanctions, public investigations" or other means. It added that of the 45 riders on the podium between 1996 and 2010, 36 were by cyclists "similarly tainted by doping.""

So, Lance was just a more sophisticated and shady cheater and somehow worse. Sounds like all professional cyclists are cheating coonts.

From the looks of it, any Farker here would just need to show up and complete the race. It could take you weeks. But you'd be the only person who didn't dope, and you'd win.
 
2012-10-22 09:11:27 AM
And now I wonder if I'm the only one who feels consistent about this issue. In the mid 2000's I thought "Bullshiat he "passed his doping test"... You don't go from having ball cancer to winning the TDF in the space of 18 months without a little help. And people have been beating doping tests for 20 years now. You know, since the inception of doping tests. Anyone who believes this is a gullible idiot.

...

However, who cares if he was doping? His EXCLUSIVE purpose in life is to entertain us with astonishing acts of athletic prowess. He used those drugs to raise money for cancer, for himself, for his sport, for his team. I couldn't be bothered to be outraged when the first wave of accusations came out (and I believed them), and I can't be bothered now.
 
2012-10-22 09:11:52 AM

kregh99: destrip: How can they accuse him of cheating if he never failed a doping test?

And we're done.
(not really, but we should be.)

All of the evidence is circumstantial at best. Guilt by association is not evidence. If he used, I'm all for stripping his titles. But come up with better evidence than disgruntled non-winners and "because he was around other users, he must have used" crap.


Here is a list of all the non-circumstantial and non-hearsay evidence against Armstrong:

end
 
2012-10-22 09:12:05 AM
Why ban Armstrong for life, but give Floyd Landis and Contador a comparative break?
 
2012-10-22 09:12:38 AM

maggoo: markfara: That was always my impression of him, too. In interviews I've seen with him, he's just always seemed like kind of an arrogant dick.

/He dumped Cheryl as soon as she announced she had breast cancer.
//Stay classy, Lance.

Not quite. She wanted to marry and have kids right away, and Lance Armstrong wasn't particularly inclined to that.

You may accuse him of being a douche for not getting married agains his wishes, but breast cancer had nothign to do with it.


I thought he was a douche for initially dropping his wife so he could pork an ageing pop singer. I'm shocked she didn't reveal any stories about having to be her ex's dope mule.
 
2012-10-22 09:12:41 AM

lohphat: drewsclues: earthwirm: In before the Lance haters.... Oh. Too late. Everyone hates a winner.

There's a a lot of smug whining in this thread. I glad you all attribute such high morals to riding a goddam bicycle. Get over it. Winners take every advantage and bend every rule. If you you're not cheating, you're not trying. Period.

You sound Conservative.


Liberal as they come. I just don't think sports matter enough in the world to get all pissed when someone bends to rules to their advantage. Don't want to get pissed when people make money off cheating at sports? Stop paying billions to the people that play the games. Simple as that.
 
2012-10-22 09:13:47 AM
Jesus. At this point, just let them dope. Or have it as one of the ways to win: a doping and a non-doping medal. They already have a mountain winner, a time winner, a points winner, a young winner, a most agressive winner, and a winning team. Just ad a "doping winner".
 
2012-10-22 09:14:45 AM
Most of them devolving to other people convicted of steroid use.
 
2012-10-22 09:15:25 AM
Liestrong
 
2012-10-22 09:15:28 AM

To The Escape Zeppelin!: The medals will go to racers who's doping hasn't been caught yet.


Exactly why they're leaving the victories blank.
 
2012-10-22 09:15:32 AM
So they finally burned their witch.

And all the newts rejoiced

sheTurnedMeIntoANewt.jpg
 
2012-10-22 09:15:59 AM

Obama4Life: Two...MAYBE 3 Titles I can buy. B


Miguel Indurain won 5 in a row and there's no real cloud over him. Then again he won his last tour in 95, that would be the tour when times for various stages starting go all sorts of crazy though it started happening already the year before.
 
kab
2012-10-22 09:16:39 AM
And the powers that be continue their trend of diminishing the relevance of the worlds most prestigious bike race.

Good job.
 
2012-10-22 09:17:22 AM

maggoo: I've remember when the french cycling federation accused Lance Armstrong for using performance-enhancing drugs, a horde of americans quickly came up with a bunch of conspiracy theories and repeatedly insulted France.

Now the US anti-doping agency points out the exact same conclusions and I hear no apology being given to France and the french.


Je suis désolé.
 
2012-10-22 09:17:54 AM

kab: And the powers that be continue their trend of diminishing the relevance of the worlds most prestigious bike race.

Good job.


Clearly, this is the work of the reverse vampires.
 
2012-10-22 09:19:22 AM
I quit paying attention to sports "heros" a number of years ago. They all cut corners to get where they are and any attention paid is time wasted.

That said, I always wondered how he managed to do it after his treatment. I wonder if that was fake, too?
 
2012-10-22 09:20:34 AM

Obama4Life: Nobody could win 7 consecutive Titles without a little outside help.


i129.photobucket.com

Unless of course the event is exactly the same or very close to the same thing over and over again.

/thinks there's too many olympic swimming events.
//Doesn't consider Phelps having more than 2 or 3 gold medals at most.
 
2012-10-22 09:21:03 AM

kregh99: destrip: How can they accuse him of cheating if he never failed a doping test?

And we're done.
(not really, but we should be.)

All of the evidence is circumstantial at best. Guilt by association is not evidence. If he used, I'm all for stripping his titles. But come up with better evidence than disgruntled non-winners and "because he was around other users, he must have used" crap.


There's quite a few witnesses who were on his own cycling team who also testified against him, 11 of them apparently. These aren't a few disgruntled losers, they're his team mates, and the number of them testifying against him would make it a pretty unlikely conspiracy.
 
2012-10-22 09:21:43 AM

EyeballKid: Skarekrough: However no one gave a crap about cycling before him and no one will likely give a crap about the sport after him.

[startwithtypewriters.com image 298x449]
3 time Tour de France winner and former Taco Bell pitchman Greg Lemond may beg to differ. Just because you yourself don't remember something doesn't mean it didn't hapen.


Don't forget "bike builder".

Love my Lemond
 
2012-10-22 09:21:46 AM
ny-image1.etsy.com
 
2012-10-22 09:22:05 AM

Molavian: What a f*cking liar. I knew that damn testicular cancer thing was a cover-up! He had one of his balls surgically removed to be a more competitive cyclist! His junk could then all flop to the same side when biking, allowing him to sprint more easily than those with both testicles!!

!!!!


Would you call a cyclist with one ball a Unicycler?
 
2012-10-22 09:23:14 AM
None of these revelations are of much suprise to most of the cyclists I know. Most didn't know what a jerk he was though until reading the affidavits on the USADA website.

Zabriskie's, in particular, is pretty sickening.
 
2012-10-22 09:23:30 AM

TheVeryDeadIanMartin: So how much of an edge does doping give you anyway? Are we talking a few seconds, minutes, hours, or how do you measure this sort of thing?


EPO will improve performance by about 5% which is the difference between the middle of the tour de france and no one has ever heard of you to winning it.
 
2012-10-22 09:23:46 AM
GIS "Lance Armstrong ripped"

That's why he won
 
2012-10-22 09:24:08 AM

jchic: Okay, so this means that they are 100% sure that everyone else is clean and Lance was the only cheater right? Right?

Yea, that's what I thought.


Both sides are bad, so vote (R)mstrong.
 
2012-10-22 09:24:26 AM

EyeballKid: 3 time Tour de France winner and former Taco Bell pitchman Greg Lemond may beg to differ.


Who?
 
2012-10-22 09:25:14 AM
I don't get the uproar. All elite-level athletes should be allowed to use whatever drugs they want, there's a fine line between legal supplements and banned drugs (caffeine and ADHD medications are banned at the college level, for instance, and half the shiat I take for recreational lifting is legal but on the WADA list).
 
2012-10-22 09:25:48 AM
Meanwhile, most other professional athletes shrug while taking today's dose of performance enhancing drugs.
 
2012-10-22 09:26:06 AM

Joe Peanut: Obama4Life: Nobody could win 7 consecutive Titles without a little outside help.

Which is why they should investigate Michael Schumacher. He must have been injecting nitrous oxide into his engine.

/derp


I seem to remember stories of Schumacher underfilling his gas tank to get a weight advantage and then rolling through the gravel at the end of his races so his tires would pick up gravel and make up the difference when his car was weighed.

But your starry eyed allegiance to Lance is noted.

/If I dislike Armstrong for anything, it's the influx of spandex laden cyclists who seem to think that coasting around shoulderless country roads is a "sport" if you are wearing spandex with sponsors names all over it.
 
2012-10-22 09:29:23 AM

EyeballKid: Skarekrough: However no one gave a crap about cycling before him and no one will likely give a crap about the sport after him.

[startwithtypewriters.com image 298x449]
3 time Tour de France winner and former Taco Bell pitchman Greg Lemond may beg to differ. Just because you yourself don't remember something doesn't mean it didn't hapen.


Another doper.
 
2012-10-22 09:29:25 AM

Matrix Flavored Wasabi: I don't get the uproar. All elite-level athletes should be allowed to use whatever drugs they want, there's a fine line between legal supplements and banned drugs (caffeine and ADHD medications are banned at the college level, for instance, and half the shiat I take for recreational lifting is legal but on the WADA list).


This.

Anyone who's proper outraged about doping... doesn't understand it very well.
 
2012-10-22 09:29:46 AM

maggoo: markfara: That was always my impression of him, too. In interviews I've seen with him, he's just always seemed like kind of an arrogant dick.

/He dumped Cheryl as soon as she announced she had breast cancer.
//Stay classy, Lance.

Not quite. She wanted to marry and have kids right away, and Lance Armstrong wasn't particularly inclined to that.

You may accuse him of being a douche for not getting married agains his wishes, but breast cancer had nothign to do with it.


we all know correllation = causation.

They happend close together so one caused the other. End. Of. Story.
 
2012-10-22 09:30:05 AM

EyeballKid: Skarekrough: However no one gave a crap about cycling before him and no one will likely give a crap about the sport after him.

[startwithtypewriters.com image 298x449]
3 time Tour de France winner and former Taco Bell pitchman Greg Lemond may beg to differ. Just because you yourself don't remember something doesn't mean it didn't hapen.


No, I remember.

But the general public does, vaguely.

You missed the point though. What has Greg done for the sport of cycling lately and how does it compare to what Lance's influence has been upon it over the past decade or so?

When you're a sport nearly devoid of "rock stars" it's stupid to take one down any earlier than absolutely necessary, especially when his presence has advanced it as much as it has.

Yeah, he cheated, big farking deal. Your membership numbers are up, kids are buying bikes, the amateur circuit is bigger than it has ever been and big-name bike manufacturers have hardcore money to throw at RandD to make then next great bike. The org isn't going to lose ANY integrity by taking its time and being thorough and investigating all aspects of all athletes involved.
 
2012-10-22 09:32:21 AM

Skarekrough: You missed the point though. What has Greg done for the sport of cycling lately and how does it compare to what Lance's influence has been upon it over the past decade or so?

When you're a sport nearly devoid of "rock stars" it's stupid to take one down any earlier than absolutely necessary, especially when his presence has advanced it as much as it has.


Without Greg Lemond, there's no precedent for Blackball Armstrong to become the "rock star" of his sport.

Skarekrough: Yeah, he cheated, big farking deal.



It's disturbing how prevalent this line of thinking is. Are there really this many self-centered, shiatty parents?
 
2012-10-22 09:32:23 AM

max_pooper: Here is a list of all the non-circumstantial and non-hearsay evidence against Armstrong:

end


Do you know how I know that you don't know what those terms mean?

kriegfusion: Obama4Life: Nobody could win 7 consecutive Titles without a little outside help.

[i129.photobucket.com image 300x300]

Unless of course the event is exactly the same or very close to the same thing over and over again.

/thinks there's too many olympic swimming events.
//Doesn't consider Phelps having more than 2 or 3 gold medals at most.


I wouldn't be shocked if Phelps, or any Olympian, was doping as well. They very likely all dope.
 
2012-10-22 09:32:31 AM
www.periodistadigital.com
 
2012-10-22 09:33:04 AM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: He's such a good guy with such a compelling story that it's such a shame he has to go out this way. He took a sport few people care about and really exploded the amount of attention that it got, and now, to find out he'd been cheating, it's such a letdown.


He's not "such a good guy". I live 25 miles from where he grew up and he's universally known, on a personal level, to be a giant douchebag narcissist asshole. He's terribly rude and condescending. He just got cancer and it made him a sympathetic figure.

Overall his presence on earth has been positive because of the amount of cancer research his cause has funded. But make no mistake if you knew him personally you would consider him a huge dick.
 
2012-10-22 09:33:50 AM

kriegfusion: Obama4Life: Nobody could win 7 consecutive Titles without a little outside help.

[i129.photobucket.com image 300x300]

Unless of course the event is exactly the same or very close to the same thing over and over again.

/thinks there's too many olympic swimming events.
//Doesn't consider Phelps having more than 2 or 3 gold medals at most.


Michael Phelps has exactly 0 gold medals.

He has Olympic wins, yes. Not denying that. But if you melted down all of his medals and smelted out just the gold, you might get enough for a pinkie ring.
 
2012-10-22 09:33:56 AM

Joe Peanut: Obama4Life: Nobody could win 7 consecutive Titles without a little outside help.

Which is why they should investigate Michael Schumacher. He must have been injecting nitrous oxide into his engine.

/derp


7 out of 11 championships in a sport where most of the time there are only 2 or at most 3 competitive teams is not really all that comparable to what Armstrong "achieved".
 
2012-10-22 09:34:32 AM

Sybarite: Does anyone really think the guys who finished second, third, and fourth in all those races weren't doping as well?


Most of those guys have already been caught. One of the problems with stripping him of his titles is, who do you give them to? They're going to have to find someone no one's ever cared enough to scrutinize. And when they scrutinize him, they're going to find he cheated, too.
 
2012-10-22 09:35:49 AM

machoprogrammer: max_pooper: Here is a list of all the non-circumstantial and non-hearsay evidence against Armstrong:

end

Do you know how I know that you don't know what those terms mean?


Why don't you enlighten us? Please provide all the evidence used against Armstrong that is not hearsay or circumstantial.
 
2012-10-22 09:36:51 AM

oldfarthenry: [i1151.photobucket.com image 550x550]
Gig's up, Lance! Strip out of that spacesuit and GTFO!


Why would they put velcro on the inside of the helmet if they're on a sound stage. Just lift the visor and scratch your nose.
 
2012-10-22 09:38:03 AM

kriegfusion: Obama4Life: Nobody could win 7 consecutive Titles without a little outside help.

[i129.photobucket.com image 300x300]

Unless of course the event is exactly the same or very close to the same thing over and over again.

/thinks there's too many olympic swimming events.
//Doesn't consider Phelps having more than 2 or 3 gold medals at most.


his "dope" has a downer effect, not performance enhancing.
 
2012-10-22 09:38:07 AM
When they say doping, what kind of dope did he use?
 
2012-10-22 09:38:18 AM

rumpelstiltskin: Sybarite: Does anyone really think the guys who finished second, third, and fourth in all those races weren't doping as well?

Most of those guys have already been caught. One of the problems with stripping him of his titles is, who do you give them to? They're going to have to find someone no one's ever cared enough to scrutinize. And when they scrutinize him, they're going to find he cheated, too.


A lot acknowledge that to ride with the pro European peleton in that era, you pretty much had to dope. Some did more successfully than others.
 
2012-10-22 09:38:30 AM
OH what a happy and morning of relief!
I knew Lance Cheatwrong was dirty before he finished a TFD in 1996
then he grew into a big asre, and pissed alot of cyclist off.
what lost my respect for this pile of crap was he only trained for July.
then the sneaking of blood before races and being tipped off when the test were scheduled.
He deserves a life of shame!

escume me, i need update some wiki pages!
Vamos Banesto!
 
2012-10-22 09:38:39 AM

doglover: kriegfusion: Obama4Life: Nobody could win 7 consecutive Titles without a little outside help.

[i129.photobucket.com image 300x300]

Unless of course the event is exactly the same or very close to the same thing over and over again.

/thinks there's too many olympic swimming events.
//Doesn't consider Phelps having more than 2 or 3 gold medals at most.

Michael Phelps has exactly 0 gold medals.

He has Olympic wins, yes. Not denying that. But if you melted down all of his medals and smelted out just the gold, you might get enough for a pinkie ring.


Really? This is what this thread has devolved into?
 
2012-10-22 09:39:03 AM
Yet Barry Bond's record still stands
 
2012-10-22 09:39:26 AM

maddermaxx: kregh99: destrip: How can they accuse him of cheating if he never failed a doping test?

And we're done.
(not really, but we should be.)

All of the evidence is circumstantial at best. Guilt by association is not evidence. If he used, I'm all for stripping his titles. But come up with better evidence than disgruntled non-winners and "because he was around other users, he must have used" crap.

There's quite a few witnesses who were on his own cycling team who also testified against him, 11 of them apparently. These aren't a few disgruntled losers, they're his team mates, and the number of them testifying against him would make it a pretty unlikely conspiracy.


absolutely.. We all know how quantity of testimony improves its truthyness.

Just look at the inquisition, Salem witch trial, mcmartin pre-school, the billions who testify to the truth of various scriptures. All that testimony that physically impossible things happened means they did occur!
 
2012-10-22 09:39:29 AM

maddermaxx: There's quite a few witnesses who were on his own cycling team who also testified against him, 11 of them apparently. These aren't a few disgruntled losers, they're his team mates, and the number of them testifying against him would make it a pretty unlikely conspiracy.


It totally makes sense that everyone who ever knew him in any way has come forward and apparently lied about him just for the fun of slandering him. And the labs illegally spiked his urine tests after the fact. It's much easier to believe that dozens upon dozens of people, many of whom don't even know him, were forced to break laws in order to slander Armstrong, who clearly came back from cancer after not really having won much before it and got superpowers, magically beating everyone in the world, who WAS doping.

If all your teammates LIED in order to discredit you, you are probably the most consummate asshole hin the history of the world. So he's either a cheater and a regular ol' asshole or he's the biggest asshole ever. Either way, I don't have a problem with besh*tting his career.
 
2012-10-22 09:39:43 AM
Races are won in the court room.
 
2012-10-22 09:40:20 AM

NeoBad: When they say doping, what kind of dope did he use?

"His goal led him to depend on EPO, testosterone and blood transfusions but also, more ruthlessly, to expect and to require that his teammates would likewise use drugs to support his goals if not their own," the agency said in its 202-page report.

 
2012-10-22 09:40:45 AM

kregh99: destrip: How can they accuse him of cheating if he never failed a doping test?

And we're done.
(not really, but we should be.)

All of the evidence is circumstantial at best. Guilt by association is not evidence. If he used, I'm all for stripping his titles. But come up with better evidence than disgruntled non-winners and "because he was around other users, he must have used" crap.


You should invite Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and Lance over for tea. Or a book club. You could all have a wonderfully honest conversation.
 
kab
2012-10-22 09:40:57 AM

Joe Peanut: Which is why they should investigate Michael Schumacher. He must have been injecting nitrous oxide into his engine.

/derp



Yes, F1 teams never ever cheat. No sir.
 
2012-10-22 09:41:52 AM

EyeballKid: Skarekrough: You missed the point though. What has Greg done for the sport of cycling lately and how does it compare to what Lance's influence has been upon it over the past decade or so?

When you're a sport nearly devoid of "rock stars" it's stupid to take one down any earlier than absolutely necessary, especially when his presence has advanced it as much as it has.

Without Greg Lemond, there's no precedent for Blackball Armstrong to become the "rock star" of his sport.

Skarekrough: Yeah, he cheated, big farking deal.


It's disturbing how prevalent this line of thinking is. Are there really this many self-centered, shiatty parents?


Society does it. Amazing how much outrage this causes when it means nothing in life yet thoses who are "Cheating" our laws on immigration get an "Aww shucks, its too hard to do it without cheating" and yet you want me to be outraged about some sportts cheating? Or the institutionalized cheating on admissions and such with afirmative action? Please.
 
2012-10-22 09:41:52 AM

EyeballKid: Skarekrough: You missed the point though. What has Greg done for the sport of cycling lately and how does it compare to what Lance's influence has been upon it over the past decade or so?

When you're a sport nearly devoid of "rock stars" it's stupid to take one down any earlier than absolutely necessary, especially when his presence has advanced it as much as it has.

Without Greg Lemond, there's no precedent for Blackball Armstrong to become the "rock star" of his sport.

Skarekrough: Yeah, he cheated, big farking deal.


It's disturbing how prevalent this line of thinking is. Are there really this many self-centered, shiatty parents?


It's a sporting event. It should be as relevant as how much basil you smell in your own farts.
 
2012-10-22 09:42:13 AM

NeoBad: When they say doping, what kind of dope did he use?


Erythropoietin, HGH, testosterone (which they thought made the EPO more effective), cortisone, and blood doping are the big ones I've read about.

Blood doping is the practice of withdrawing your own blood months before a big event and transfusing it back into yourself just before the event.
 
2012-10-22 09:42:15 AM

EyeballKid: Skarekrough: You missed the point though. What has Greg done for the sport of cycling lately and how does it compare to what Lance's influence has been upon it over the past decade or so?

When you're a sport nearly devoid of "rock stars" it's stupid to take one down any earlier than absolutely necessary, especially when his presence has advanced it as much as it has.

Without Greg Lemond, there's no precedent for Blackball Armstrong to become the "rock star" of his sport.

Skarekrough: Yeah, he cheated, big farking deal.


It's disturbing how prevalent this line of thinking is. Are there really this many self-centered, shiatty parents?


Explain.

What did he do to cheat? Should it be considered cheating and why? Given all he accomplished both personally and for his sport and surrounding organizations, can we establish a moral framework in which to judge him or others who "cheat" in this way?
 
2012-10-22 09:42:18 AM
So let me get this straight. He's an apparently healthy individual now that, in the past, dominated a sport after being sick. And people are mad at him becuase he used performance enhancing drugs; otherwise known as vitamins or dope. And the thing dominating the minds of sheeple is "cheating?"

I'm disappointed.
 
2012-10-22 09:43:14 AM

doglover: kriegfusion: Obama4Life: Nobody could win 7 consecutive Titles without a little outside help.

[i129.photobucket.com image 300x300]

Unless of course the event is exactly the same or very close to the same thing over and over again.

/thinks there's too many olympic swimming events.
//Doesn't consider Phelps having more than 2 or 3 gold medals at most.

Michael Phelps has exactly 0 gold medals.

He has Olympic wins, yes. Not denying that. But if you melted down all of his medals and smelted out just the gold, you might get enough for a pinkie ring.


The IOC rules state that each gold medal must contain 6 grams of gold. With 18 golds, that adds up to 108 grams, or 3.81 ounces of gold.

That pinkie ring sounds kind of heavy.
 
2012-10-22 09:43:27 AM

jchic: Okay, so this means that they are 100% sure that everyone else is clean and Lance was the only cheater right? Right?

Yea, that's what I thought.


FTA: "USADA also thinks the Tour titles should not be given to other riders who finished on the podium, such was the level of doping during Armstrong's era."

Wow, you're an idiot.
 
2012-10-22 09:43:53 AM
Oh no he used steroids in a sport where everyone used steroids! So officially no one won all those years since?
 
2012-10-22 09:45:34 AM

tomWright: maddermaxx: kregh99: destrip: How can they accuse him of cheating if he never failed a doping test?

And we're done.
(not really, but we should be.)

All of the evidence is circumstantial at best. Guilt by association is not evidence. If he used, I'm all for stripping his titles. But come up with better evidence than disgruntled non-winners and "because he was around other users, he must have used" crap.

There's quite a few witnesses who were on his own cycling team who also testified against him, 11 of them apparently. These aren't a few disgruntled losers, they're his team mates, and the number of them testifying against him would make it a pretty unlikely conspiracy.

absolutely.. We all know how quantity of testimony improves its truthyness.

Just look at the inquisition, Salem witch trial, mcmartin pre-school, the billions who testify to the truth of various scriptures. All that testimony that physically impossible things happened means they did occur!


Who, precisely, would you believe then?

I mean, these people, many famous cyclists in their own right admitted to doping themselves in order to testify against Lance Armstrong. Seriously, your analogy doesn't work at all because these people aren't just saying lance did something bad, they are admitting, painfully, that they did too, and they will suffer setbacks for that themselves.
 
2012-10-22 09:45:53 AM

kab: Joe Peanut: Which is why they should investigate Michael Schumacher. He must have been injecting nitrous oxide into his engine.

/derp


Yes, F1 teams never ever cheat. No sir.


Yeah, farking DonCHEATY won the Indy 500 this year by running Sato off the road.

asshole.
 
2012-10-22 09:46:35 AM

Carth: Oh no he used steroids in a sport where everyone used steroids! So officially no one won all those years since?


jeez loiuse, not every cyclist doped to win, lance and USPS cheated every race!
which is not hard to do iif one races only n july!
 
2012-10-22 09:46:44 AM
I dont care if he was doping or not .
This is a witch hunt.

//that is all
 
2012-10-22 09:48:23 AM

expobill: Carth: Oh no he used steroids in a sport where everyone used steroids! So officially no one won all those years since?

jeez loiuse, not every cyclist doped to win, lance and USPS cheated every race!
which is not hard to do iif one races only n july!


What place do you need to go back to in Lances Tour de France wins to find someone who was still believed to be clean? Were there any in the top 10 or top 20?
 
2012-10-22 09:48:34 AM

give me doughnuts: That pinkie ring sounds kind of heavy.


I have big hands.
 
2012-10-22 09:48:56 AM
Well, if the government says he cheated, that's good enough for me.

Why yes, I'd love to buy that oceanfront property in Wyoming you're selling; sounds like a heck of a deal!
 
2012-10-22 09:49:52 AM
FTA: "The agency said 20 of the 21 riders on the podium in the Tour from 1999 through 2005 have been "directly tied to likely doping through admissions, sanctions, public investigations" or other means. It added that of the 45 riders on the podium between 1996 and 2010, 36 were by cyclists "similarly tainted by doping." "

Not saying that doping is right, but after reading that, I half don't blame him. Now, the allegations about trafficking coercing people into doping should be dealt accordingly. But it almost seems silly at this point to punish willing participants in doping, when you basically had to if you were to remain competitive.

What matters now is how the UCI handles drug testing from here on out in professional cycling. If they are truly serious, they will clean house...**cue the sound of audience laughter**
 
2012-10-22 09:51:34 AM

Girion47: Yeah, farking DonCHEATY won the Indy 500 this year by running Sato off the road.

asshole.


That's not F1, and Franchitti won clean as a whistle.
 
2012-10-22 09:51:41 AM

Carth: Oh no he used steroids in a sport where everyone used steroids! So officially no one won all those years since?


That is in fact their official position at the moment. Yes. It's retarded.

If everyone is "cheating", couldn't we just call that "training"?
 
2012-10-22 09:51:48 AM

BeesNuts: EyeballKid: Skarekrough: You missed the point though. What has Greg done for the sport of cycling lately and how does it compare to what Lance's influence has been upon it over the past decade or so?

When you're a sport nearly devoid of "rock stars" it's stupid to take one down any earlier than absolutely necessary, especially when his presence has advanced it as much as it has.

Without Greg Lemond, there's no precedent for Blackball Armstrong to become the "rock star" of his sport.

Skarekrough: Yeah, he cheated, big farking deal.


It's disturbing how prevalent this line of thinking is. Are there really this many self-centered, shiatty parents?

Explain.

What did he do to cheat? Should it be considered cheating and why? Given all he accomplished both personally and for his sport and surrounding organizations, can we establish a moral framework in which to judge him or others who "cheat" in this way?


I'm going to do a bad just at this but... if the testimony of all is teammates is to be believed he cheated by himself taking substances banned by the governing body under which he was racing and engaging in the organization of a doping program for his team. It should be considered cheating because it was against the rules of fair play, it was deceitful and manipulative, and gave an unfair edge against clean cyclists.

The moral framework is- you agree to a set of rules before competing. If you deliberately break these rules and enable, encourage and coerce others to do so while you actively avoid being caught by people trying to enforce these rules, then you are immoral.
 
2012-10-22 09:53:34 AM

Mose: The moral framework is- you agree to a set of rules before competing. If you deliberately break these rules and enable, encourage and coerce others to do so while you actively avoid being caught by people trying to enforce these rules, then you are immoral.


But, you see, this situation was different from every other moral quandary you could imagine, because in this case, everybody was doing it!

Seriously, nobody here has told a child that used the "everybody's doing it" excuse to fark the fark off with that bullshiat?
 
2012-10-22 09:54:22 AM

drewsclues: lohphat: drewsclues: earthwirm: In before the Lance haters.... Oh. Too late. Everyone hates a winner.

There's a a lot of smug whining in this thread. I glad you all attribute such high morals to riding a goddam bicycle. Get over it. Winners take every advantage and bend every rule. If you you're not cheating, you're not trying. Period.

You sound Conservative.

Liberal as they come. I just don't think sports matter enough in the world to get all pissed when someone bends to rules to their advantage. Don't want to get pissed when people make money off cheating at sports? Stop paying billions to the people that play the games. Simple as that.


And yet your attitude describes the Republican platform perfectly.
 
2012-10-22 09:54:25 AM
At least this witch hunt is finally over. I've been a big Lance fan for years and never had any doubts about him doping, it was pretty obvious. Cycling is one of, if not the dirtiest sport in the world. Everyone around him was doping, he was too. And he still won 7 in a row, He was still the best.

It's pretty well known that Lance Armstrong is a gigantic asshole, but he's done a lot of good as well. His foundation has raised an incredible amount of money for cancer research, and Lance himself brought cycling into prominence in the United States.

Kind of sad that they had to make an example of someone, but if they did, he was the obvious choice. He was an asshole, hated by the Europeans, and he won 7 tours in a row. You wanna make an example of someone? Go after the biggest, and that's what they did. I personally have never given a shiat if he was doping, everyone was and he was still the best. He'll always be one of the greats anyway, it's tough to demonize a doper in a sport where everyone is cheating. And he trained like a motherf*cking animal.
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2012-10-22 09:55:20 AM
maybe doping should be mandatory.
 
2012-10-22 09:55:26 AM
But he did win 7 Tour de France victories and they can never take that away....oh, wait...
 
kab
2012-10-22 09:55:45 AM

maddermaxx: I mean, these people, many famous cyclists in their own right admitted to doping themselves in order to testify against Lance Armstrong.


More than a few of them tested positive themselves, and were either removed from races or stripped after the fact.

If the Armstrong investigation level of effort and scrutiny were applied to every other tour winner since '65, I wonder how many 'legitimate' winners you'd actually end up with.

The sport needs to, at some point, draw a conclusion that if you win, and a year or so goes by with no testing proof otherwise, then you stay in the record book and the sport just moves on.

Otherwise, you get the current situation that who gets busted for dope is bigger news than who actually wins, which is very bad for the sport.
 
2012-10-22 09:55:59 AM

BeesNuts: Carth: Oh no he used steroids in a sport where everyone used steroids! So officially no one won all those years since?

That is in fact their official position at the moment. Yes. It's retarded.

If everyone is "cheating", couldn't we just call that "training"?


Exactly. If the goal of anti-doping rules is to create a level playing ground, but all the top athletes are doping anyways we still have a level playing ground just not the one the officials wanted.
 
2012-10-22 09:56:31 AM

maggoo: I've remember when the french cycling federation accused Lance Armstrong for using performance-enhancing drugs, a horde of americans quickly came up with a bunch of conspiracy theories and repeatedly insulted France.

Now the US anti-doping agency points out the exact same conclusions and I hear no apology being given to France and the french.


Because they had no evidence.


dr_blasto: Why ban Armstrong for life, but give Floyd Landis and Contador a comparative break?


Didn't they admit it?
 
2012-10-22 09:57:35 AM

Mose: The moral framework is- you agree to a set of rules before competing. If you deliberately break these rules and enable, encourage and coerce others to do so while you actively avoid being caught by people trying to enforce these rules, then you are immoral.


But if you don't get caught, it's a W in the Spartan playbook.
 
2012-10-22 09:57:38 AM
RCA tried to take his patents about FM from him.

upload.wikimedia.org

Eventually, the courts ruled in his favour.
 
2012-10-22 09:57:47 AM

Carth: BeesNuts: Carth: Oh no he used steroids in a sport where everyone used steroids! So officially no one won all those years since?

That is in fact their official position at the moment. Yes. It's retarded.

If everyone is "cheating", couldn't we just call that "training"?

Exactly. If the goal of anti-doping rules is to create a level playing ground, but all the top athletes are doping anyways we still have a level playing ground just not the one the officials wanted.


Yeah but who cares what enhanced people can do? I think the anti-doping measures are because we want to see what a human can do without outside help, it's inspiring. What isn't is knowing I can take a 20 to mexico and get a shortcut to athletic prowess.
 
2012-10-22 09:57:55 AM
1) Lance was never hated by France, in fact he was the only cyclist to speak to the audience at the finish line in 2005.
2) NOT EVERY GT WINNER DOPED!
3) im deleting his WC on wiki win because according the UCI he is to be ignored!
 
2012-10-22 09:57:57 AM

maddermaxx: tomWright: maddermaxx: kregh99: destrip: How can they accuse him of cheating if he never failed a doping test?

And we're done.
(not really, but we should be.)

All of the evidence is circumstantial at best. Guilt by association is not evidence. If he used, I'm all for stripping his titles. But come up with better evidence than disgruntled non-winners and "because he was around other users, he must have used" crap.

There's quite a few witnesses who were on his own cycling team who also testified against him, 11 of them apparently. These aren't a few disgruntled losers, they're his team mates, and the number of them testifying against him would make it a pretty unlikely conspiracy.

absolutely.. We all know how quantity of testimony improves its truthyness.

Just look at the inquisition, Salem witch trial, mcmartin pre-school, the billions who testify to the truth of various scriptures. All that testimony that physically impossible things happened means they did occur!

Who, precisely, would you believe then?

I mean, these people, many famous cyclists in their own right admitted to doping themselves in order to testify against Lance Armstrong. Seriously, your analogy doesn't work at all because these people aren't just saying lance did something bad, they are admitting, painfully, that they did too, and they will suffer setbacks for that themselves.


believe the tests. If they are insufficient, make better tests in the future. And do not go back and restest after someone passes using the rules in place at the time.

But like all wars on drugs, perhaps we should realize prohibition does not work, and set up a system where everyone that chooses to use these drugs can do so safely under supervision.

It might take a lot of the mythology out of it. I suspect a lot of the belief these drugs do a lot is mythology due to being a black market activity. Some work, most do not. Open information will show which work, which do not, and how safe or dangerous any are.
 
2012-10-22 09:58:36 AM

BeesNuts: Carth: Oh no he used steroids in a sport where everyone used steroids! So officially no one won all those years since?

That is in fact their official position at the moment. Yes. It's retarded.


This is precisely why sanctioning bodies shouldn't write rules they cannot enforce.
 
2012-10-22 09:58:43 AM

max_pooper: Here is a list of all the non-circumstantial and non-hearsay evidence against Armstrong:


So eye-witness testimony from his teammates is now circumstantial or hearsay?? I suspect you don't know what either of those words mean. If a large number of his domestiques, soigneux and assistants say "We took EPO with Lance Armstrong, and he arranged for regular testosterone, EPO and blood transfusions for us and the team", that's not circumstantial, and its not hearsay. It's eye-witness testimony. If you don't understand the difference, I hope I'm never on a jury with you.

Carth: What place do you need to go back to in Lances Tour de France wins to find someone who was still believed to be clean? Were there any in the top 10 or top 20?


It depends. Sometimes there's a probably-clean rider on the podium, sometimes you have to look in 10th place or beyond.
 
2012-10-22 09:59:18 AM
I hope they at least let him keep his gold records.
 
2012-10-22 09:59:28 AM

Carth: BeesNuts: Carth: Oh no he used steroids in a sport where everyone used steroids! So officially no one won all those years since?

That is in fact their official position at the moment. Yes. It's retarded.

If everyone is "cheating", couldn't we just call that "training"?

Exactly. If the goal of anti-doping rules is to create a level playing ground, but all the top athletes are doping anyways we still have a level playing ground just not the one the officials wanted.


For one thing, it wasn't a level playing ground because different teams had varying levels of access to PEDs and they were used to widely varying effectiveness based on the organization and the money available.

And the goal of anti-doping rules isn't only to create a level playing ground.
 
2012-10-22 09:59:40 AM
275 drug tests, Zero failures.

This is an awesome day for haters and America bashers - every frog knows no American can be a champion without cheating! No evidence? No problem. We have heresay and jealousy enough to wipe out his entire career!
 
2012-10-22 10:03:09 AM
cdn4.spiegel.de
 
2012-10-22 10:03:17 AM

Private_Citizen: 275 drug tests, Zero failures.

This is an awesome day for haters and America bashers - every frog knows no American can be a champion without cheating! No evidence? No problem. We have heresay and jealousy enough to wipe out his entire career!


But it is nice to know there are some great cyclist who did not need the blood or needle to win, as in Greg Lemond.
 
2012-10-22 10:03:27 AM
There's too much money in all professional sports for any of them to stay uncorrupted for long. There's just too much incentive to cheat.

How about we stop throwing buckets of money at these over-rated, unproductive leeches? They're just playing a game, FFS.
 
2012-10-22 10:03:33 AM
Lance Armstrong beat an entire field of dopers, seven times in a row by drinking eagle tears and wearing a red, white and blue speedo under his shorts.

His American exceptionalism allowed him to simply rise above the gallons of HGH in the field behind him.
 
2012-10-22 10:03:42 AM
This just in: If you are sponsored by a government agency and are even suggested to have been engaged in illegal activity or any possible impropriety during that time, expect to have the hammer come down, and with a lot of money and energy being invested in said hammer.

But, yeah this all just an anti-cancer witch hunt or something.
 
2012-10-22 10:05:23 AM

Girion47: Carth: BeesNuts: Carth: Oh no he used steroids in a sport where everyone used steroids! So officially no one won all those years since?

That is in fact their official position at the moment. Yes. It's retarded.

If everyone is "cheating", couldn't we just call that "training"?

Exactly. If the goal of anti-doping rules is to create a level playing ground, but all the top athletes are doping anyways we still have a level playing ground just not the one the officials wanted.

Yeah but who cares what enhanced people can do? I think the anti-doping measures are because we want to see what a human can do without outside help, it's inspiring. What isn't is knowing I can take a 20 to mexico and get a shortcut to athletic prowess.


Racers at this level are already spending tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in training and equipment. The average cyclists who might compete in one or two races a year never has a chance to reach the level they are at. Blood transfusions and EPO might make a difference when competing with the top .01% but if they wanted a real "level playing field" normal people could compare themselves to they'd mandate what equipment and training regiments the competitors could use.
 
2012-10-22 10:05:32 AM

maggoo: I've remember when the french cycling federation accused Lance Armstrong for using performance-enhancing drugs,...


No, you don't.

You probably remember some French newspapers accusing him, after some English/French journalists wrotea tell-all book (L.A. Confidentiel), which has been proven almost entirely true. You may even remember Lance's bullying of Christophe Bassons for his writing in "Le Parisien", but the French Cycling Federation (in common with the UCI) never did anything at all.
 
2012-10-22 10:06:11 AM

Mose: BeesNuts: EyeballKid: Skarekrough: You missed the point though. What has Greg done for the sport of cycling lately and how does it compare to what Lance's influence has been upon it over the past decade or so?

When you're a sport nearly devoid of "rock stars" it's stupid to take one down any earlier than absolutely necessary, especially when his presence has advanced it as much as it has.

Without Greg Lemond, there's no precedent for Blackball Armstrong to become the "rock star" of his sport.

Skarekrough: Yeah, he cheated, big farking deal.


It's disturbing how prevalent this line of thinking is. Are there really this many self-centered, shiatty parents?

Explain.

What did he do to cheat? Should it be considered cheating and why? Given all he accomplished both personally and for his sport and surrounding organizations, can we establish a moral framework in which to judge him or others who "cheat" in this way?

I'm going to do a bad just at this but... if the testimony of all is teammates is to be believed he cheated by himself taking substances banned by the governing body under which he was racing and engaging in the organization of a doping program for his team. It should be considered cheating because it was against the rules of fair play, it was deceitful and manipulative, and gave an unfair edge against clean cyclists.

The moral framework is- you agree to a set of rules before competing. If you deliberately break these rules and enable, encourage and coerce others to do so while you actively avoid being caught by people trying to enforce these rules, then you are immoral.


Ignoring the tautology of the argument of why it should be considered cheating, this is a valid argument. I think that's a little too black and white for my own liking, but I can accept it as reasonable.

Now for the governing bodies complicity in the cheating that they themselves defined. Specifically the involvement of Hein Verbruggen. The dude allegedly accepted bribes from Armstrong for nearly 10 years. And at the time, was one of the most vocal opponents to the claims made by Landis in 2010. In fact, when asked about it as recently as May 2011, he said:

"There is nothing. I repeat again: Lance Armstrong has never used doping. Never, never, never. I say this not because I am a friend of his, because that is not true. I say it because I'm sure."

Meanwhile, sponsors, like Nike, were dumping money on the order of half a million dollars into the UCI expressly because of Lance's popularity and his ability to sell merchandise. Surely this would have no bearing on UCI's leadership during this period of unprecedented popularity.

/The ENTIRE ORGANIZATION from top to bottom was complicit in this. Frankly, I think the doors should be opened, the effects of steroids and HGH studied fully and the sales of these drugs brought into the light of day. Stop the use of additional illicit "masking agents" with contraindicative uses. Have team doctors monitor health and wellness (mental/physical) on people in the open.
//Same with baseball, football, soccer, swimming, sprinting, farkin.. jai alai...
 
2012-10-22 10:07:50 AM

Killer Cars: This just in: If you are sponsored by a government agency and are even suggested to have been engaged in illegal activity or any possible impropriety during that time, expect to have the hammer come down, and with a lot of money and energy being invested in said hammer.

But, yeah this all just an anti-cancer witch hunt or something.


This is exactly why we see so many fines and prison sentences for: politicians who take illegal contributions, illegal trades in financial institutions that receive government funding and fraudulent billing from defense contractors. But really tell me how important it is to investigate cycling and baseball.
 
2012-10-22 10:07:54 AM
*shrug* almost any professional athlete you see on television has doped at some point in their lives. If you think otherwise, you are naive. Everyone knows the deal, and everyone knows when the testing happens. You can only detect these things while they're active in your system... and its not like you need to be on it all the time. You bulk and train during the opposite season as testing occurs.

Why do you think the player unions oppose HGH testing so much? Or they agree to things like only testing in the off season.

Of course, this is any field that requires extreme physical performance. You think green berets bulk up to 240 lbs of beast, go off into the field and burn/lose 60 pounds in 3 weeks, then come back and bulk back up to their 240 weight for the text exercise a month or two later naturally too? Hah... hah.... hah....

/I'm not saying I know these things from first hand experience, but I know these things from first hand experience.
 
2012-10-22 10:08:32 AM

Molavian: EyeballKid: 3 time Tour de France winner and former Taco Bell pitchman Greg Lemond may beg to differ.

Who?


Greg LeMond was an incredible athlete with a near-superhuman VO2Max, as well as an all-around great guy with a reputation for fairness and honesty. He won the world's most grueling sporting event three times, apparently without doping. Incidentally, one of these victories was an all-time classic moment in sporting, when he won the 1989 tour on the final day by 8 seconds (in a three-week race!)

Therefore, nobody remembers him.

Compare to douchebag extraordinaire Lance Arminjectionstrong, who not only doped (like many others at the time), but also strong-armed (eh!) some of his team-mates into doping. That is an entirely different level of douchebaggery.

Compare also to Ultimate Epic Douchebag Floyd Landis (remember him?): when LeMond was called to testify against him, Landis' manager called LeMond, in Landis' presence, and threatened to disclose the fact that LeMond had suffered sexual abuse as a kid - a fact that LeMond had revealed to Landis in confidence in a previous discussion while encouraging him to come clean.

Now Armstrong and Landis will go down in history for all the wrong reasons, and LeMond for all the right ones. Good to see that, for once, assholes didn't finish first.
 
2012-10-22 10:09:25 AM
Armstrong stripped of Tour de France titles, Moon Landing

This headline is a real Stretch.
 
2012-10-22 10:11:02 AM

Rev.K: Lance Armstrong beat an entire field of dopers, seven times in a row by drinking eagle tears and wearing a red, white and blue speedo under his shorts.

His American exceptionalism allowed him to simply rise above the gallons of HGH in the field behind him.


He did not, and he only raced in JULY!
 
2012-10-22 10:11:22 AM

Private_Citizen: 275 drug tests, Zero failures.


This is the great Armstrong lie. Lance tested positive for testosterone during the Tour de France in 1999. So he created a back dated prescription for a completely fake "saddle sore" dermatitis, that the UCI accepted as justification. (Note, this isn't the Tour of Switzerland / EPO post-facto fail. This was public knowledge at the time.)

Numerous people, most - like Emma O'Reilly - with nothing to gain and everything to lose. If you want to know how Lance Armstrong operated, familiarise yourself with what happened to Emma O'Reilly.
 
2012-10-22 10:11:45 AM
I knew there would be douche bags defending this guy. And lo and behold.....FARK.
 
2012-10-22 10:12:38 AM

d23: maybe doping should be mandatory.


That's MrsBallou's position. She wants an All-Drug Football League. Speedballs on the sideline and not-holds-barred on the field. If somebody rips an arm off because he's in roid-rage, well, that's just too damn bad.
 
2012-10-22 10:13:37 AM

To The Escape Zeppelin!: The medals will go to racers who's doping hasn't been caught yet.


Sounds like they're not giving ANY medals for those years...
 
2012-10-22 10:14:45 AM
If you don't use synthetic oil in your vehicle, you're doing it wrong.

Just sayin...as the times change, so do the ways in which we manipulate efficiency. Always has been, always will be, always should be.

Yes, I'm conservative.
 
2012-10-22 10:14:55 AM
For those who think that this should just be let go, water under the bridge and all that, think of it from a different perspective: Outing lance as a cheat is an essential part of cleaning house for the future of the sport.

If they just let it go because "it's in the past", current athletes would see that as saying "you only need to get away with it for a few years, then you're home and dry". This way the athletes will know that they will not just have to get away with it to start with, but to keep getting away with it for years to come, and if it comes out, it can ruin their reputations forever. That's a good incentive to quit doping.

Clean house for the next generation, and maybe you'll have a clean sport in the future, even if drug testing continues to lag behind new drug/masking developments.
 
2012-10-22 10:15:29 AM

BeesNuts: Mose: BeesNuts: EyeballKid: Skarekrough: You missed the point though. What has Greg done for the sport of cycling lately and how does it compare to what Lance's influence has been upon it over the past decade or so?

When you're a sport nearly devoid of "rock stars" it's stupid to take one down any earlier than absolutely necessary, especially when his presence has advanced it as much as it has.

Without Greg Lemond, there's no precedent for Blackball Armstrong to become the "rock star" of his sport.

Skarekrough: Yeah, he cheated, big farking deal.


It's disturbing how prevalent this line of thinking is. Are there really this many self-centered, shiatty parents?

Explain.

What did he do to cheat? Should it be considered cheating and why? Given all he accomplished both personally and for his sport and surrounding organizations, can we establish a moral framework in which to judge him or others who "cheat" in this way?

I'm going to do a bad just at this but... if the testimony of all is teammates is to be believed he cheated by himself taking substances banned by the governing body under which he was racing and engaging in the organization of a doping program for his team. It should be considered cheating because it was against the rules of fair play, it was deceitful and manipulative, and gave an unfair edge against clean cyclists.

The moral framework is- you agree to a set of rules before competing. If you deliberately break these rules and enable, encourage and coerce others to do so while you actively avoid being caught by people trying to enforce these rules, then you are immoral.

Ignoring the tautology of the argument of why it should be considered cheating, this is a valid argument. I think that's a little too black and white for my own liking, but I can accept it as reasonable.

Now for the governing bodies complicity in the cheating that they themselves defined. Specifically the involvement of Hein Verbruggen. The dude allegedly accepted bribes ...


Tautologies are an engineer's best friend. Why doesn't it work? Because it's broken.

Aside from that, while I agree the UCI may very welll have been complicit and the whole dutch motorcyclist thing was just creepy, WADA and USADA was also responsible for enforcement and Armstrong agreed to compete under their rules as well. No one is going to make the argument that they are complicit, so i think that strengthens my argument.
 
2012-10-22 10:16:26 AM
Sigh, I believed until the last moment.
I also think no one else was clean, let him keep his Jerseys
 
2012-10-22 10:16:29 AM
i understand he passed the piss testes. But, when literally every single one of your teammates is saying 'we were all doping', it means the guy was doping.
 
2012-10-22 10:16:39 AM

boluke01: FTA: "The agency said 20 of the 21 riders on the podium in the Tour from 1999 through 2005 have been "directly tied to likely doping through admissions, sanctions, public investigations" or other means. It added that of the 45 riders on the podium between 1996 and 2010, 36 were by cyclists "similarly tainted by doping." "

Not saying that doping is right, but after reading that, I half don't blame him. Now, the allegations about trafficking coercing people into doping should be dealt accordingly. But it almost seems silly at this point to punish willing participants in doping, when you basically had to if you were to remain competitive.

What matters now is how the UCI handles drug testing from here on out in professional cycling. If they are truly serious, they will clean house...**cue the sound of audience laughter**


Ironic how he's getting his medals stripped because he cheated, suggesting he only won because he cheated, yet he still kicked everyone else's asses and they were cheating too.
 
2012-10-22 10:16:46 AM
I think most people here are lance fans, rather than cycling fans, which i now understand.
my point is some seem shocked and angered over this and blame others the UCI, but blame lance.
he knew the risk of getting caught , and he just lied to himself so much that he believed he was clean.
 
2012-10-22 10:17:51 AM

destrip: How can they accuse him of cheating if he never failed a doping test?


Because he decided to stop fighting the allegations. He essentially said "no mas."

When Armstrong decided in August not to contest the agency's charges that he doped, administered doping products and encouraged doping on his Tour-winning teams, he agreed to forgo an arbitration hearing at which the evidence against him would have been aired, possibly publicly. But that evidence, which the antidoping agency called overwhelming and proof of the most sophisticated sports doping program in history, came out anyway.

He could have had a full hearing, but he chose not to.

Details here

Armstrong relied on the Italian doctor Michele Ferrari for training and doping plans, several riders said. Armstrong continued to use Ferrari even after he publicly claimed in 2004 - and testified under oath in an insurance claims case - that he had severed all business ties with Ferrari.

The antidoping agency noted that Armstrong had sent payments of more than $1 million to Ferrari from 1996 through 2006, based on financial documents discovered in an Italian doping investigation.


Lance Armstrong has now learned that if you're a prick to everyone, they'll all turn on you at the best opportunity. One person saying something 10 years ago wouldn't have been effective, but all these sworn statements together are quite damning.

One more thing - the whole "never failed a drug test" line is a lie.

The team's doctors came up with fake maladies so that riders could receive an exemption to use drugs like cortisone, several riders said. When Armstrong tested positive for cortisone during the 1999 Tour, Armstrong produced a backdated prescription for it, for saddle sores. Hamilton said he knew that was a lie.

He did test positive, and had to cover his tracks.
 
2012-10-22 10:17:58 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: Sigh, I believed until the last moment.
I also think no one else was clean, let him keep his Jerseys


sorry
but there were alot of clean GT winners in these decades.
 
2012-10-22 10:19:12 AM

notatrollorami:
Overall his presence on earth has been positive because of the amount of cancer research his cause has funded. But make no mistake if you knew him personally you would consider him a huge dick.


Where are the details of how much has been given for research. IIRC the money raised was fore "awareness" and not research.
 
2012-10-22 10:19:38 AM

gwowen: max_pooper: Here is a list of all the non-circumstantial and non-hearsay evidence against Armstrong:

So eye-witness testimony from his teammates is now circumstantial or hearsay?? I suspect you don't know what either of those words mean. If a large number of his domestiques, soigneux and assistants say "We took EPO with Lance Armstrong, and he arranged for regular testosterone, EPO and blood transfusions for us and the team", that's not circumstantial, and its not hearsay. It's eye-witness testimony. If you don't understand the difference, I hope I'm never on a jury with you.



A judge would probably laugh you out of court if that is your "evidence". I will ask again. Please cite evidence that is not circumstantial or hearsay.

Note: eyewitness testimony of "another teammate said he overheard the team doctor say Lance took HGH" is hearsay. A teammate that says, "I was on his team and I was given steroids so that means that Lance was too" is circumstantial evidence.
 
2012-10-22 10:20:03 AM

SlothB77: i understand he passed the piss testes. But, when literally every single one of your teammates is saying 'we were all doping', it means the guy was doping.


... and yet, its astonishing how people will turn themselves inside out to deny this simple truth,
 
kab
2012-10-22 10:20:16 AM

maddermaxx: Clean house for the next generation, and maybe you'll have a clean sport in the future,


Good luck with that. Drug testing has been going on in cycling since '65.

Alone in the Snark: Greg LeMond was an incredible athlete with a near-superhuman VO2Max, as well as an all-around great guy with a reputation for fairness and honesty. He won the world's most grueling sporting event three times, apparently without doping.


I wonder what would be found if he had gone through the same level of scrutiny that Armstrong has.
 
2012-10-22 10:20:42 AM

max_pooper: machoprogrammer: max_pooper: Here is a list of all the non-circumstantial and non-hearsay evidence against Armstrong:

end

Do you know how I know that you don't know what those terms mean?

Why don't you enlighten us? Please provide all the evidence used against Armstrong that is not hearsay or circumstantial.


Well, for one thing, hearsay is defined as:
1. Information received from other people that cannot be adequately substantiated; rumor.
2. The report of another person's words by a witness, usually disallowed as evidence in a court of law.

Since these are people who claimed to personally witness him doping, that cannot be hearsay. If they said, "Soandso said he doped", that is hearsay.
 
2012-10-22 10:20:57 AM

max_pooper: Please cite evidence that is not circumstantial or hearsay.


Exhibit A: 500 passed drug tests.
 
2012-10-22 10:21:11 AM
UCI president Pat McQuaid said: "Lance Armstrong has no place in cycling. He deserves to be forgotten."
McQuaid added Armstrong had been stripped of all results since 1 August, 1998 and banned for life for doping.
 
2012-10-22 10:21:16 AM

maddermaxx: For those who think that this should just be let go, water under the bridge and all that, think of it from a different perspective: Outing lance as a cheat is an essential part of cleaning house for the future of the sport.

If they just let it go because "it's in the past", current athletes would see that as saying "you only need to get away with it for a few years, then you're home and dry". This way the athletes will know that they will not just have to get away with it to start with, but to keep getting away with it for years to come, and if it comes out, it can ruin their reputations forever. That's a good incentive to quit doping.

Clean house for the next generation, and maybe you'll have a clean sport in the future, even if drug testing continues to lag behind new drug/masking developments.


That is why you won't ever get clean sports. Endorsement deals are paid yearly; if you cheat, win, and get a 2 million dollar a year endorsement it is worth getting your title stripped in 3-4 years. As long as there are millions of dollars on the line people will continue to dope. I'd much rather they test the participants to make sure they aren't doing something dangerous than force this stupid game of cat and mouse.
 
2012-10-22 10:21:59 AM

maggoo: I've remember when the french cycling federation accused Lance Armstrong for using performance-enhancing drugs, a horde of americans quickly came up with a bunch of conspiracy theories and repeatedly insulted France.

Now the US anti-doping agency points out the exact same conclusions and I hear no apology being given to France and the french.


Meh. I like France, been there several times.

But, some of us are old enough to remember them being a touch smug about the LA race riots.

Didn't hear an apology from them after their Muslims torched every Renault in Paris...
 
2012-10-22 10:22:22 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: Sigh, I believed until the last moment.
I also think no one else was clean, let him keep his Jerseys


As I know you're a cyclist, I'm surprised you're not cynical and jaded.

/are up happy? there's no happiness in bike racing!
 
2012-10-22 10:23:06 AM

Sybarite: Does anyone really think the guys who finished second, third, and fourth in all those races weren't doping as well?


"USADA also thinks the Tour titles should not be given to other riders who finished on the podium, such was the level of doping during Armstrong's era.

The agency said 20 of the 21 riders on the podium in the Tour from 1999 through 2005 have been "directly tied to likely doping through admissions, sanctions, public investigations" or other means. It added that of the 45 riders on the podium between 1996 and 2010, 36 were by cyclists "similarly tainted by doping.""
 
2012-10-22 10:23:43 AM

mbillodeaux: If you don't use synthetic oil in your vehicle, you're doing it wrong.

Just sayin...as the times change, so do the ways in which we manipulate efficiency. Always has been, always will be, always should be.

Yes, I'm conservative.


Hell, I'd say you're a speechwriter for conservatives, given the way you re-phrased "cheating" to "manipulating efficiency." What did you call torture? Are you familiar with Orwell's "Politics and the English Language" essay?

Hold up, are you Frank Luntz?
 
2012-10-22 10:24:29 AM

FinFangFark: Meh, he doped in a sport where EVERYONE dopes. He just doped better than everyone else..and the French were pissed that a dirty American won 7 straight.


This. It must have driven them nuts that a cancer survivor beat them nonstop, doping or no.
 
2012-10-22 10:24:56 AM

Girion47: Yeah but who cares what enhanced people can do? I think the anti-doping measures are because we want to see what a human can do without outside help, it's inspiring. What isn't is knowing I can take a 20 to mexico and get a shortcut to athletic prowess.


They aren't muscle pills, you know. Like... you still need to train. As much if not more than your non-doping counterparts. What doping lets you do is *train* more strenuously and more often. And maintain a good diet.

I don't care about "outside help" any more than I care about all the other advantages afforded to professional athletes when it comes to training. I mean, back in the day, professional athletes were paid so poorly that many had additional jobs. This cut down on training time. Do we want to limit the amount of time people can spend in the gym to make sure that these records are set by Joe Everyman?
 
2012-10-22 10:25:12 AM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: He's such a good guy with such a compelling story that it's such a shame he has to go out this way. He took a sport few people care about and really exploded the amount of attention that it got, and now, to find out he'd been cheating, it's such a letdown.


It's called karma.

He's been a dick for years, even to his daughter.
 
2012-10-22 10:25:40 AM

Mose: And the goal of anti-doping rules isn't only to create a level playing ground.


Are there others? What are they?
 
2012-10-22 10:26:56 AM
dumb headline
 
2012-10-22 10:27:02 AM

BeesNuts: Do we want to limit the amount of time people can spend in the gym to make sure that these records are set by Joe Everyman?


Yes, also i propose no cyclist is allowed to use any bike costing over $300 to make the sport more accessible.
 
2012-10-22 10:27:31 AM
Uhh, he still won. If everyone is doping, it's a fair race. Sports are entertainment. Why treat it any different from other aspects of entertainment? Actors/actresses modify their bodies, wear shiat tons of make-up and use cute camera tricks to present a far better depiction of themselves. Magazines photoshop the shiat out of people. The news lies. 9/11 was an insider job, WRESTLING IS REAL AND THE RENT IS TOO GOD DAMN HIGH
 
2012-10-22 10:28:07 AM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: destrip: How can they accuse him of cheating if he never failed a doping test?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

/or something


Nearly failing but not quite failing every drug test he's ever taken suggests Type II error.
 
2012-10-22 10:28:43 AM
drug tests were passed, but that doesn't matter.
what matters is that the sport is now dead
fark 'em
he shoulda been the superpresident of france!!!
 
2012-10-22 10:29:03 AM

max_pooper: Eyewitness testimony of "another teammate said he overheard the team doctor say Lance took HGH" is hearsay. A teammate that says, "I was on his team and I was given steroids so that means that Lance was too" is circumstantial evidence.


Here's 70 seconds of an interview with Tyler Hamilton. Selected quotes from the first 40 seconds:

"We had a transfusion together, we did that multiple times"
"We took EPO together, not a big deal as we all [USPS] did it"
"I knew he took cortisone, but I never saw him do it".
"I saw him do activogene, you can get that injected the morning of a race and I saw him do that"
"I saw him take testosterone, both in pill form and in liquid form"
 
2012-10-22 10:29:45 AM

liam76: dr_blasto: Why ban Armstrong for life, but give Floyd Landis and Contador a comparative break?

Didn't they admit it?


Landis and Contador both tested positive; Landis went on to confess all kinds of drug stuff. I'm unaware of Contador "coming clean" (lol) afterwards.

Difference is they both actually popped on tests, so confessions after the fact aren't all that don't mean so much to me.
 
2012-10-22 10:31:20 AM

drewsclues: earthwirm: In before the Lance haters.... Oh. Too late. Everyone hates a winner.

There's a a lot of smug whining in this thread. I glad you all attribute such high morals to riding a goddam bicycle. Get over it. Winners take every advantage and bend every rule. If you you're not cheating, you're not trying. Period.


couldn't agree more
cache.deadspin.com
 
2012-10-22 10:31:40 AM

gwowen: max_pooper: Eyewitness testimony of "another teammate said he overheard the team doctor say Lance took HGH" is hearsay. A teammate that says, "I was on his team and I was given steroids so that means that Lance was too" is circumstantial evidence.

Here's 70 seconds of an interview with Tyler Hamilton. Selected quotes from the first 40 seconds:

"We had a transfusion together, we did that multiple times"
"We took EPO together, not a big deal as we all [USPS] did it"
"I knew he took cortisone, but I never saw him do it".
"I saw him do activogene, you can get that injected the morning of a race and I saw him do that"
"I saw him take testosterone, both in pill form and in liquid form"


I can forgive the testosterone... dude was missing a nut after all.
 
2012-10-22 10:32:14 AM

Headso: hopefully this will reduce the number of douchebag cyclists using roads for exercise equipment and inconveniencing everyone else as they do it.


Nope. I don't know anybody in my local racing community who does it because of Lance or anyone else.

So roads are single use? Mostly to take your 6000 lbs vehicle to go buy 17 lbs worth of groceries?
 
2012-10-22 10:34:25 AM

expobill: Uchiha_Cycliste: Sigh, I believed until the last moment.
I also think no one else was clean, let him keep his Jerseys

sorry
but there were alot of clean GT winners in these decades.


The last decade hasn't looked so hot =/
 
2012-10-22 10:35:06 AM
Marion Jones never failed a drug test either and yet she was stripped and sent to prison.
 
2012-10-22 10:35:13 AM

feanorn: Obama4Life: Nobody could win 7 consecutive Titles without a little outside help.

Bill Russell looks at you askance.


+1 for "askance." Now I have to work "askance" into all of my conversations today.
 
2012-10-22 10:35:14 AM

expobill: but there were alot of clean GT winners in these decades.


There may have been some, but its hard to think of many. Armstrong, Ullrich, Riis, Heras, Pantani, Contador, Vinokurov, Basso... this is not a list that fills me with

Denis Menchov and Carlos Sastre seem likely to be the cleanest, and Simoni tested +ve for cocaine, and Simoni road for Discovery Channel
 
2012-10-22 10:36:20 AM

BeesNuts: Mose: And the goal of anti-doping rules isn't only to create a level playing ground.

Are there others? What are they?


For the safety and health of the participants and the influence their rules have on the rest of the sport. And the fact that the way some of these products are used is illegal in a lot of the participating countries and the competitors' home countries as well.
 
2012-10-22 10:37:36 AM

Mose: Uchiha_Cycliste: Sigh, I believed until the last moment.
I also think no one else was clean, let him keep his Jerseys

As I know you're a cyclist, I'm surprised you're not cynical and jaded.

/are up happy? there's no happiness in bike racing!


I'm slightly less happy than I was. On the other hand, he *WAS* still hands down the fastest. I'll always have those years.

I'm gonna get a beating for this...
Like a Boss.
 
2012-10-22 10:39:13 AM
When Alberto Contador was stripped of his 2010 Tour victory for a doping violation, organizers awarded the title to Andy Schleck. In 2006, Oscar Pereiro was awarded the victory after the doping disqualification of American rider Floyd Landis.

So awards were stripped in 2006 and 2010. Is there any integrity in the sport?
 
2012-10-22 10:39:31 AM

Girion47: kriegfusion: Obama4Life: Nobody could win 7 consecutive Titles without a little outside help.

[i129.photobucket.com image 300x300]

Unless of course the event is exactly the same or very close to the same thing over and over again.

/thinks there's too many olympic swimming events.
//Doesn't consider Phelps having more than 2 or 3 gold medals at most.

his "dope" has a downer effect, not performance enhancing.


Actually regular smokers have increased VO2max and THC is a bronchodialator, as ass-backwards as it may seem
 
2012-10-22 10:40:58 AM

maddermaxx: Clean house for the next generation, and maybe you'll have a clean sport in the future, even if drug testing continues to lag behind new drug/masking developments.


Drug testing will always lag behind PED development; it's the nature of the beast. So long as there's money to be made, new PEDs will be developed. Some athletes will use them, some won't.
 
2012-10-22 10:41:33 AM

Skarekrough: machoprogrammer: In before the Lance apologists

....However no one gave a crap about cycling before him and no one will likely give a crap about the sport after him.


Because, why would I now be interested in a sport whose pantheon is composed of cheaters and liars?
 
2012-10-22 10:42:12 AM
Stupid-head Armstrong. You made me get up early to watch the mountain stages live. Thanks for ruining my sleep dopey-mcdoper.
 
2012-10-22 10:42:48 AM
DO YOU EVEN CYCLE?
 
2012-10-22 10:45:01 AM
This has been a good story. Like a Greek tragedy with the hero rising to great heights and then being smashed to bits on the rocks below. It was getting to be a bit of a boring narrative before all this came out.
 
2012-10-22 10:45:13 AM

ranold: DO YOU EVEN CYCLE?


lather, rinse, repeat...?
 
2012-10-22 10:46:13 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: Mose: Uchiha_Cycliste: Sigh, I believed until the last moment.
I also think no one else was clean, let him keep his Jerseys

As I know you're a cyclist, I'm surprised you're not cynical and jaded.

/are up happy? there's no happiness in bike racing!

I'm slightly less happy than I was. On the other hand, he *WAS* still hands down the fastest. I'll always have those years.

I'm gonna get a beating for this...
Like a Boss.


I still hold on to the nostalgia too. Watching that first climb to Sestriere in '99 did a lot to inspire my own cycling.
 
2012-10-22 10:46:15 AM

destrip: How can they accuse him of cheating if he never failed a doping test?


"Hitler never killed anybody" logic.

Armstrong's stance took ball, I'll give him that.
 
2012-10-22 10:46:27 AM

ranold: DO YOU EVEN CYCLE?


Cycle on and off PEDs to avoid popping on a test?
 
2012-10-22 10:47:36 AM

damat01: Marion Jones never failed a drug test either and yet she was stripped and sent to prison.


Jones went to prison for perjury[1]. Which, interestingly enough, is exactly what Armstrong stopped short of by choosing to quit fighting when he did. To fight on, he'd have to repeat his lie to a judge, and he knows that that escalates things from "public shame" to "jail time".

1] and cheque fraud
 
2012-10-22 10:47:39 AM

Valiente: destrip: How can they accuse him of cheating if he never failed a doping test?

"Hitler never killed anybody" logic.

Armstrong's stance took ball, I'll give him that.


*slow clap*
 
2012-10-22 10:51:29 AM

felching pen: Skarekrough: machoprogrammer: In before the Lance apologists

....However no one gave a crap about cycling before him and no one will likely give a crap about the sport after him.

Because, why would I now be interested in a sport whose pantheon is composed of cheaters and liars?


....that the public found out about because the governing body did everything but set themselves on fire and run through every major city to announce it.
 
2012-10-22 10:53:04 AM

damat01: Marion Jones never failed a drug test either and yet she was stripped and sent to prison.


Giggity
 
2012-10-22 10:54:03 AM

tomWright: damat01: Marion Jones never failed a drug test either and yet she was stripped and sent to prison.

Giggity


Oh, well played Mr Wright, well played indeed.
 
2012-10-22 10:54:44 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: I'm slightly less happy than I was. On the other hand, he *WAS* still hands down the fastest.


That likely wouldn't be true either if the other elite teams/cyclists had an entire team of dopers with the armstrong-uci inside connection/advanced undetectable doping techniques. The rest of the world wasn't in on the microdosing train, have advanced warning for tests, or were saddled with at least a few clean riders or riders who couldn't dose daily like armstrong's team. They were just winging it - of course they couldn't keep up.
 
2012-10-22 10:56:32 AM
UCI president Pat McQuaid announced that the federation accepted the USADA's report on Armstrong and would not appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

I knew Lance didn't have the balls to appeal.
 
ifq
2012-10-22 10:56:36 AM
not that strong finally...
 
2012-10-22 10:57:02 AM

Tyrone Slothrop: drewsclues: lohphat: drewsclues: earthwirm: In before the Lance haters.... Oh. Too late. Everyone hates a winner.

There's a a lot of smug whining in this thread. I glad you all attribute such high morals to riding a goddam bicycle. Get over it. Winners take every advantage and bend every rule. If you you're not cheating, you're not trying. Period.

You sound Conservative.

Liberal as they come. I just don't think sports matter enough in the world to get all pissed when someone bends to rules to their advantage. Don't want to get pissed when people make money off cheating at sports? Stop paying billions to the people that play the games. Simple as that.

And yet your attitude describes the Republican platform perfectly.


And yours describes the Democrat platform; whining rather than doing.
 
2012-10-22 11:00:47 AM
Are the people asking for their money back from Livestrong trying to one-up Lance as the the biggest scumbags in the world. They are asking for their money back... from a cancer charity.

Besides whose stronger than somebody all tuned up on PEDs?
 
2012-10-22 11:00:50 AM
He didn't cheat, he changed the conditions of the race. He deserves an accommodation for original thinking.

edgeofthewest.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-10-22 11:04:44 AM

gwowen: expobill: but there were alot of clean GT winners in these decades.

There may have been some, but its hard to think of many. Armstrong, Ullrich, Riis, Heras, Pantani, Contador, Vinokurov, Basso... this is not a list that fills me with

Denis Menchov and Carlos Sastre seem likely to be the cleanest, and Simoni tested +ve for cocaine, and Simoni road for Discovery Channel


Im thinking of my club since I been following the sport since the 70's and a huge banesto-movistar supporter were we won a total of 12 GT and numerous races CLEAN!
 
2012-10-22 11:06:58 AM

lohphat: Don't you tools still feel smug wearing those sheep tags...er, Livestrong[tm] bracelets? You know, for "cancer awareness" that gave nothing to research but mostly into his pocket?

P. T. Barnum wins again.


[Citation Needed]
 
2012-10-22 11:07:17 AM

Carth: Oh no he used steroids in a sport where everyone used steroids! So officially no one won all those years since?


Óscar Pereiro of Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears won the TDF 2006
 
2012-10-22 11:08:06 AM

Uranus Is Huge!: Are the people asking for their money back from Livestrong trying to one-up Lance as the the biggest scumbags in the world. They are asking for their money back... from a cancer charity.

Besides whose stronger than somebody all tuned up on PEDs?


I never gave them a dime!
/hates cancer tho!
 
2012-10-22 11:08:14 AM
civil lawsuits from ex-sponsors or even the U.S. government.

Let see, he rode for the US Postal Service. Who's going broke right about now? Oh, the US Postal Service?
 
2012-10-22 11:10:22 AM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: He's such a good guy with such a compelling story that it's such a shame he has to go out this way. He took a sport few people care about and really exploded the amount of attention that it got, and now, to find out he'd been cheating, it's such a letdown.


Good guy... who left his wife who stood by him through cancer, and the mother of his children, for freaking Cheryl Crow?
Not so much.

lohphat: Don't you tools still feel smug wearing those sheep tags...er, Livestrong[tm] bracelets? You know, for "cancer awareness" that gave nothing to research but mostly into his pocket?

P. T. Barnum wins again.


Just in case no one has already given you a great big STFU you liar: https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=6 5 70
 
2012-10-22 11:10:59 AM
I still do not forgive the UCI for banning Alejandro Valverde, but today was great for the sport of cycling!
 
2012-10-22 11:11:56 AM

expobill: Im thinking of my club since I been following the sport since the 70's and a huge banesto-movistar supporter were we won a total of 12 GT and numerous races CLEAN!


Oh, OK. That's fair enough.

I was limiting myself to post-Indurain (i.e. before USPS, Festina, EPO etc took the doping to the industrial level). Up to and including Indurain, whatever doping was going on in the peloton was relatively small scale (think Tom Simpson, rather than Marco Pantani).
 
2012-10-22 11:13:01 AM

rumpelstiltskin: Sybarite: Does anyone really think the guys who finished second, third, and fourth in all those races weren't doping as well?

Most of those guys have already been caught. One of the problems with stripping him of his titles is, who do you give them to?

 

Well, ladies and gentlemen, I don't think any of our Tour de France contestants have succeeded in passing the doping test, so I say we award the first prize to the girl with the biggest tits. 

/Proust
 
2012-10-22 11:13:08 AM

destrip: How can they accuse him of cheating if he never failed a doping test?


Because that's what he was cheating on. Testimony of his teammates.
 
2012-10-22 11:14:15 AM
So THIS is how France gets back at us for all that "freedom fries" nonsense.
 
2012-10-22 11:14:43 AM
Looks like it is going to take a little bit longer for the naive and gullible Lance apologists to finally understand that their fake hero is a pathological liar, a bully, and a piece of shiat who tried to destroy anyone who got in the way of his carefully constructed one-ball liestrong universe.
 
2012-10-22 11:14:48 AM

waterrockets: Headso: hopefully this will reduce the number of douchebag cyclists using roads for exercise equipment and inconveniencing everyone else as they do it.

Nope. I don't know anybody in my local racing community who does it because of Lance or anyone else.

So roads are single use? Mostly to take your 6000 lbs vehicle to go buy 17 lbs worth of groceries?


So cyclists are delusional as well.

You're hobby is fundamentally disruptive to your community. Which is fine, so long as you're aware of it and adjust your behavior appropriately. Commandeering shoulderless, windy roads for 4 - 6 hours a week isn't appropriate. Especially in the region I live in, because trail riding is abundant as all get out.

If you believe that Lance Armstrong didn't increase the popularity of street cycling in America... you're completely insane.
 
2012-10-22 11:15:23 AM

EyeballKid: Skarekrough: However no one gave a crap about cycling before him and no one will likely give a crap about the sport after him.

[startwithtypewriters.com image 298x449]
3 time Tour de France winner and former Taco Bell pitchman Greg Lemond may beg to differ. Just because you yourself don't remember something doesn't mean it didn't hapen.


Which has really little do with that guy's comment. Cycling is a niche sport and the only reason it got any sort of public attention outside of it's narrow fan base is because of Lance Armstrong. Without a more or less iconic champion, cycling will fade back into obscurity.

You're not wrong, either.
 
2012-10-22 11:16:26 AM
ecx.images-amazon.com
 
2012-10-22 11:18:28 AM

expobill: Carth: Oh no he used steroids in a sport where everyone used steroids! So officially no one won all those years since?

Óscar Pereiro of Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears won the TDF 2006


And he has already had one doping allegation which he explained away as asthma medication. I bet if we spend a few million dollars investigating him we could turn up something else.
 
2012-10-22 11:18:48 AM

SirGeorgeBurkelwitzIII: And he still won 7 in a row, He was still the best.

Even if he was clean he would never be the best because he only competed and trained for the TDF.
a true champion cyclist can win the Giro, Vuelta or TDF that year.
Lance never raced in those tours one year.
but Pat McQuaid told us cycling fans to forget that person.
so I will- he never existed!
Happy riding everyone, and visit my Movistar team cycling blog (which needs updating) to stay in touch!
 
2012-10-22 11:21:41 AM

Carth: expobill: Carth: Oh no he used steroids in a sport where everyone used steroids! So officially no one won all those years since?

Óscar Pereiro of Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears won the TDF 2006

And he has already had one doping allegation which he explained away as asthma medication. I bet if we spend a few million dollars investigating him we could turn up something else.


wrong rider, that was Indurain who was clear because due to asthma.
And Miguel suffered from allergies and never took anything for them, which explains his dismal Vuelta results.
 
2012-10-22 11:24:32 AM
Given how physically fit he was/is, like Lewis Black said, the question isn't was he doping, the question is why aren't we all doping.
 
2012-10-22 11:25:43 AM

Some Bass Playing Guy: E

Which has really little do with that guy's comment. Cycling is a niche sport and the only reason it got any sort of public attention outside of it's narrow fan base is because of Lance Armstrong. Without a more or less iconic champion, cycling will fade back into obscurity.


sez who?
i know the sport will and has succeed with record amounts of spectators this year, even with the winter conditions Spain that cancelled some routes last March.
 
2012-10-22 11:29:40 AM

expobill: Carth: expobill: Carth: Oh no he used steroids in a sport where everyone used steroids! So officially no one won all those years since?

Óscar Pereiro of Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears won the TDF 2006

And he has already had one doping allegation which he explained away as asthma medication. I bet if we spend a few million dollars investigating him we could turn up something else.

wrong rider, that was Indurain who was clear because due to asthma.
And Miguel suffered from allergies and never took anything for them, which explains his dismal Vuelta results.


Sorry this was the first thing that came up when I added his name to dopingLink?
 
2012-10-22 11:30:03 AM
Wow, if this is what happens when you're merely ACCUSED of doping, what do they do to you when they find that you're actually doping?

If you come in second place in the race, I guess your best strategy is to accuse the winner of taking drugs. No need to actually win anymore...
 
2012-10-22 11:30:36 AM

Mose: BeesNuts: Mose: And the goal of anti-doping rules isn't only to create a level playing ground.

Are there others? What are they?

For the safety and health of the participants and the influence their rules have on the rest of the sport. And the fact that the way some of these products are used is illegal in a lot of the participating countries and the competitors' home countries as well.


In the NFL it's an expectation that you will break bones, be concussed, tear ligaments... In boxing, you will develop brain damage. In Hockey you will lose teeth. In power lifting you will dislocate something or other. It is for these risks and for the value of the overall organization that they are so heavily compensated (in most professional sports anyway).

Some of these drugs can reduce the risk of injury. Some can increase the risk of heart disease. Keeping it below board certainly doesn't help these athletes make informed decisions. By creating a blanket prohibition on all PEDs, they have conceived an environment in which the legality of the drugs plays only a small role in an athletes decision to use them. Now, the only drugs they are willing or able to take are the ones that are most easily passed through the system, masked by additional (and potentially *more* dangerous) drugs, or so new that no test exists to detect it yet. Wouldn't it be nice if these athletes were sticking to the safest available performance enhancers? And those who didn't wish to subject their bodies to punishment would simply (as is the case already) choose to not participate?
 
2012-10-22 11:30:51 AM

Zizzowop: Given how physically fit he was/is, like Lewis Black said, the question isn't was he doping, the question is why aren't we all doping.


why should we? all riders do have a conscious , well the ones i support!
 
2012-10-22 11:31:08 AM

drewsclues: If you you're not cheating, you're not trying. Period.


what a sad commentary on, well, you.
 
2012-10-22 11:34:17 AM

Zizzowop: Given how physically fit he was/is, like Lewis Black said, the question isn't was he doping, the question is why aren't we all doping.


With EPO - good luck. Some supremely fit cyclists have died in their sleep while trying to pump the old catchup blood. I know what you are saying, 'just take blood thinners!'. Well, there's the guy who bled out from a miinor injury from taking to many blood thinners to counter the EPO.

At any rate, yeah, EPO can increase you athletic performance if you train properly... but it's dangerous shiat. I for one, do not like the idea of sleeping with a heart monitor to wake me up if it slows down too much so I can hop on an exercise bike to get it going again.

In the words of one guy...

"During the day we live to ride, and at night, we ride to stay alive"

Sounds like great fun, no?
 
2012-10-22 11:34:58 AM
So, I'm wondering when someone will finally go after Barry Bonds-I have that dude's rookie baseball card, and it's obvious looking at then and like 5 years later that he changed quite a bit.
 
2012-10-22 11:36:12 AM

Carth:

Sorry this was the first thing that came up when I added his name to dopingLink?


No problem, this is my favorite sport so i kinda know these things more that myself.
I also blogged a team from Spain.

The sport is exciting, heartbreaking and sad, we lost a great friendly rider Xavier Tondo last year to an accident involving a garage door, and a very funny Wouters to a wall. Just watching a handful of riders race up a incline to the finish line and have your facebook friend win, is very incredible!
 
kab
2012-10-22 11:36:22 AM

expobill: Carth: expobill: Carth: Oh no he used steroids in a sport where everyone used steroids! So officially no one won all those years since?

Óscar Pereiro of Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears won the TDF 2006

And he has already had one doping allegation which he explained away as asthma medication. I bet if we spend a few million dollars investigating him we could turn up something else.

wrong rider, that was Indurain who was clear because due to asthma.
And Miguel suffered from allergies and never took anything for them, which explains his dismal Vuelta results.


Actually both Oscar and Miguel tested positive for salbutamol (in '06 and '94, respectively)
 
2012-10-22 11:37:38 AM

godxam: drewsclues: If you you're not cheating, you're not trying. Period.

what a sad commentary on, well, you.


If there's something you love to do and you want to be the best at it you do whatever it takes to get what you want. This does not mean always cheating to get ahead. There are plenty of places where playing by the rules can get you to the top. In most sports, cheating is almost a requirement to win. If you don't like it, stop paying to see them play.
 
2012-10-22 11:37:39 AM
Pretty poor understanding of hearsay and circumstantial evidence in here.

Circumstantial evidence is admissible and usually the bulk of the evidence used in courts. Probably 95% of cases are entirely circumstantial. The comments in here are a result of the CSI Effect, where people who watch too much TV, and haven't set a foot in a criminal courtroom think that no one is convicted unless there's DNA or other hard direct slam-dunk type evidence proving guilt.

Plenty, if not the majority of people on death row where the only evidence against them was circumstantial.

Hearsay involves one person saying that another person said something. All of the riders who testify that they witnessed Lance dope would not be giving hearsay evidence. Hearsay would only be where someone testifies that Lance admitted that he doped to them privately.

/the more you know 
//You haven't won the race if in winning the race you have lost the respect of your competitors.
 
kab
2012-10-22 11:38:12 AM

BeesNuts: You're hobby is fundamentally disruptive to your community.


Your assessment of what is and is not legal road use is off base, unsurprisingly.

You'll get over it.
 
2012-10-22 11:39:03 AM

expobill: why should we? all riders do have a conscious , well the ones i support!


My question to all the 'so what?' brigade is this: If every rider in all the big races was clean, wouldn't someone still finish first? It's like people have become brainwashed and they no longer think it's possible to ride the grand tours without drugs.

Of course it's possible and many have done it. The problem is it doesn't fit the american corporate narrative. To sell product you need a dominant superstar to build around. Not a different guy with a funny name winning all the different various races.
 
2012-10-22 11:39:22 AM

kingflower: Looks like it is going to take a little bit longer for the naive and gullible Lance apologists to finally understand that their fake hero is a pathological liar, a bully, and a piece of shiat who tried to destroy anyone who got in the way of his carefully constructed one-ball liestrong universe.


Did you fall off your bike in the race, honey?
 
2012-10-22 11:41:18 AM

drewsclues: And yet your attitude describes the Republican platform perfectly.

And yours describes the Democrat platform; whining rather than doing.


I'd rather have a Democratic party that whines about lying and cheating instead of the GOP which embraces those values wholeheartedly.
 
2012-10-22 11:41:25 AM

JohnBigBootay: Zizzowop: Given how physically fit he was/is, like Lewis Black said, the question isn't was he doping, the question is why aren't we all doping.

With EPO - good luck. Some supremely fit cyclists have died in their sleep while trying to pump the old catchup blood. I know what you are saying, 'just take blood thinners!'. Well, there's the guy who bled out from a miinor injury from taking to many blood thinners to counter the EPO.

At any rate, yeah, EPO can increase you athletic performance if you train properly... but it's dangerous shiat. I for one, do not like the idea of sleeping with a heart monitor to wake me up if it slows down too much so I can hop on an exercise bike to get it going again.

In the words of one guy...

"During the day we live to ride, and at night, we ride to stay alive"

Sounds like great fun, no?


I was just quoting Lewis Black, the only drugs I take are Prilosec. I ride a bike roughly 5 or 6 miles every day, although I may need to alter that with the change in weather, luckily I live in CA though.
 
2012-10-22 11:43:42 AM

JohnBigBootay: expobill: why should we? all riders do have a conscious , well the ones i support!

My question to all the 'so what?' brigade is this: If every rider in all the big races was clean, wouldn't someone still finish first? It's like people have become brainwashed and they no longer think it's possible to ride the grand tours without drugs.

Of course it's possible and many have done it. The problem is it doesn't fit the american corporate narrative. To sell product you need a dominant superstar to build around. Not a different guy with a funny name winning all the different various races.


Ding Ding Ding

/We have a winner here
 
2012-10-22 11:43:50 AM
I'll just leave this here.

Link 

NSFW language.
 
2012-10-22 11:47:35 AM
Actually both Oscar and Miguel tested positive for salbutamol (in '06 and '94, respectively)


Salbutamol is commonly used to treat asthma symptoms, and is allowed to be used in cycle racing if the cyclist can provide a medical prescription for the substance. which both did before the tour.
 
2012-10-22 11:49:08 AM
Does this mean I can now drive in the bike lane? No?

Then, fark it.
 
2012-10-22 11:53:43 AM

lohphat: drewsclues: And yet your attitude describes the Republican platform perfectly.

And yours describes the Democrat platform; whining rather than doing.

I'd rather have a Democratic party that whines about lying and cheating instead of the GOP which embraces those values wholeheartedly.


Then Democrats will always find a way to lose. Just like they've always done.

If you're talking about the future of our country. fark morality. Place yourself in a position to do what you think is best. That's the Republican platform. Democrats could be served well by embracing some of it.
 
2012-10-22 11:56:10 AM

Leonard Washington:
Plenty, if not the majority of people on death row where the only evidence against them was circumstantial.
.


Sounds to me like that's a problem rather than a good thing.

There's still no actual evidence Lance cheated, and it took over a decade for a body with a grudge against him to round up a bunch of other jealous known liars and cheaters, and then ask them to give conflicting "evidence" against him. Anybody who willingly believes this stuff should go back to elementary school and pick up a critical thinking book.
 
2012-10-22 11:56:25 AM

drewsclues: Tyrone Slothrop: drewsclues: lohphat: drewsclues: earthwirm: In before the Lance haters.... Oh. Too late. Everyone hates a winner.

There's a a lot of smug whining in this thread. I glad you all attribute such high morals to riding a goddam bicycle. Get over it. Winners take every advantage and bend every rule. If you you're not cheating, you're not trying. Period.

You sound Conservative.

Liberal as they come. I just don't think sports matter enough in the world to get all pissed when someone bends to rules to their advantage. Don't want to get pissed when people make money off cheating at sports? Stop paying billions to the people that play the games. Simple as that.

And yet your attitude describes the Republican platform perfectly.

And yours describes the Democrat platform; whining rather than doing.


It's hilarious that you think the position, "people shouldn't cheat" is whining. Sorry about the shiatty parents and role models you had.
 
2012-10-22 11:57:04 AM
Sure he was doping. And he beat a bunch of other guys that were doping. Just like Barry Bonds and Mark McGuire. They're grownups. What they inject into their bodies is their business, not mine. And if they do it for my entertainment, so much the better. These people are million dollar guinnea pigs. Using chemicals to make yourself better isn't unethical. The question is how to do it safely, and that's where the pro athletes come in. Pay them lots of money to test this stuff out so that when I'm 50, I can be as strong as I was when I was 24, and so I can do it safely. Let 'em dope, but give us full disclosure so we can learn something.
 
2012-10-22 11:58:58 AM

Sargun: Leonard Washington:
Plenty, if not the majority of people on death row where the only evidence against them was circumstantial.
.

Sounds to me like that's a problem rather than a good thing.

There's still no actual evidence Lance cheated, and it took over a decade for a body with a grudge against him to round up a bunch of other jealous known liars and cheaters, and then ask them to give conflicting "evidence" against him. Anybody who willingly believes this stuff should go back to elementary school and pick up a critical thinking book.


meh...sports Luddites win in the rules committees, not on the field.
 
2012-10-22 11:58:59 AM

drewsclues: lohphat: drewsclues: And yet your attitude describes the Republican platform perfectly.

And yours describes the Democrat platform; whining rather than doing.

I'd rather have a Democratic party that whines about lying and cheating instead of the GOP which embraces those values wholeheartedly.

Then Democrats will always find a way to lose. Just like they've always done.

If you're talking about the future of our country. fark morality. Place yourself in a position to do what you think is best. That's the Republican platform. Democrats could be served well by embracing some of it.


Clearly that's why you and your ilk are part of the problem.

"Christian family values for everyone -- except us."

Fark that hypocritical noise.
 
2012-10-22 11:59:22 AM

browntimmy: drewsclues: Tyrone Slothrop: drewsclues: lohphat: drewsclues: earthwirm: In before the Lance haters.... Oh. Too late. Everyone hates a winner.

There's a a lot of smug whining in this thread. I glad you all attribute such high morals to riding a goddam bicycle. Get over it. Winners take every advantage and bend every rule. If you you're not cheating, you're not trying. Period.

You sound Conservative.

Liberal as they come. I just don't think sports matter enough in the world to get all pissed when someone bends to rules to their advantage. Don't want to get pissed when people make money off cheating at sports? Stop paying billions to the people that play the games. Simple as that.

And yet your attitude describes the Republican platform perfectly.

And yours describes the Democrat platform; whining rather than doing.

It's hilarious that you think the position, "people shouldn't cheat" is whining. Sorry about the shiatty parents and role models you had.


Unless they are cheating the immigration system, welfare, elections, ect... you know... the shiat that actually matters then its ok to right?
 
2012-10-22 12:01:08 PM
Johny Schleck advises sons to "quit cycling"
That is a shame, I hope they do not because they are fun riders to watch!
 
2012-10-22 12:02:02 PM

EyeballKid: mbillodeaux: If you don't use synthetic oil in your vehicle, you're doing it wrong.

Just sayin...as the times change, so do the ways in which we manipulate efficiency. Always has been, always will be, always should be.

Yes, I'm conservative.

Hell, I'd say you're a speechwriter for conservatives, given the way you re-phrased "cheating" to "manipulating efficiency." What did you call torture? Are you familiar with Orwell's "Politics and the English Language" essay?

Hold up, are you Frank Luntz?


LOL...no. Not familiar with it; but, will read it. Thank you for the reference! A link would be much more efficient for my current mood.

Yes. I like semantics. ;-)
 
2012-10-22 12:02:28 PM

lohphat: Don't you tools still feel smug wearing those sheep tags...er, Livestrong[tm] bracelets? You know, for "cancer awareness" that gave nothing to research but mostly into his pocket?


They make a good c*ck ring.  So, yah, they feel snug.
 
2012-10-22 12:02:29 PM

expobill: Johny Schleck advises sons to "quit cycling"

link from cycling world
 
2012-10-22 12:02:35 PM

Sargun: There's still no actual evidence Lance cheated


Circumstantial evidence is evidence. I don't know what you mean by "actual" evidence, but no courts in the world make that distinction.
 
2012-10-22 12:03:07 PM

lohphat: drewsclues: And yet your attitude describes the Republican platform perfectly.

And yours describes the Democrat platform; whining rather than doing.

I'd rather have a Democratic party that whines about lying and cheating instead of the GOP which embraces those values wholeheartedly.


HAHAHHAHAHhahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

You don't think the Dems are about lying and cheating too? Patheticly funny. They just do it while hugging you.

/ Amused by people who criticize Romney for lying in the debates. You tune into a lying contest where two liars lie to each other and the public, and then take exception when one does it better than the other.
 
2012-10-22 12:04:13 PM

Sargun: There's still no actual evidence Lance cheated


There are hundreds of thousands if not millions of grumpy prisoners living behind bars today who like how you think. It's a bike race dude - you go try to find 26 people and get them to all tell the same lie to an investigator. You can't do it. You sound like one of the few left - the true believers who will continue to deny, even after he admits it. Which will likely come this week.
 
2012-10-22 12:04:24 PM

expobill: wrong rider, that was Indurain who was clear because due to asthma.
And Miguel suffered from allergies and never took anything for them, which explains his dismal Vuelta results.


Right. EPO use on the pro circuit began in the late '80s, on a very small scale. Lemond's miracle recovery from dud in the Giro to winner of the TdF in 1989? Iron shots, totally. Maybe Lemond himself didn't know what he was getting as he seems convinced he was always clean. But I'd guess he was getting EPO.

All of the truly great TdF riders that preceded Indurain reached the podium within their first or second try. Indurain, like Armstrong made several attempts at the TdF with mediocre results. Then both of them consulted with Italian EPO doping experts (Indurain with Francesco Conconi, Armstrong with Conconi's disciple Ferrari) and started winning the TdF several years in a row.

Indurain outsmarted Lance by taking his palmares, retiring and living a nice quiet life. Armstrong did anything but and it has back fired on in enormously.
 
2012-10-22 12:04:53 PM

Joe Blowme: Unless they are cheating the immigration system, welfare, elections, ect... you know... the shiat that actually matters then its ok to right?


You're including the employers that willingly and knowingly hire undocumented workers to protect their profits right? Do you think those people are working in crappy slave conditions because they want to?

Want to solve the immigration problem? Jail a few agribusiness and construction CEOs and seize their assets for hiring undocumented workers. They're creating the employment market drawing them here.
 
2012-10-22 12:06:04 PM

Bigjohn3592: lohphat: drewsclues: And yet your attitude describes the Republican platform perfectly.

And yours describes the Democrat platform; whining rather than doing.

I'd rather have a Democratic party that whines about lying and cheating instead of the GOP which embraces those values wholeheartedly.

HAHAHHAHAHhahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

You don't think the Dems are about lying and cheating too? Patheticly funny. They just do it while hugging you.

/ Amused by people who criticize Romney for lying in the debates. You tune into a lying contest where two liars lie to each other and the public, and then take exception when one does it better than the other.


I never said Democrats are above cheating, but it's not part of their core strategy.
 
2012-10-22 12:08:05 PM

Zizzowop: Given how physically fit he was/is, like Lewis Black said, the question isn't was he doping, the question is why aren't we all doping.


I wish I was as concise!
Well done.
 
2012-10-22 12:08:40 PM
JohnBigBootay

Zizzowop: Given how physically fit he was/is, like Lewis Black said, the question isn't was he doping, the question is why aren't we all doping.

With EPO - good luck. Some supremely fit cyclists have died in their sleep while trying to pump the old catchup blood. I know what you are saying, 'just take blood thinners!'. Well, there's the guy who bled out from a miinor injury from taking to many blood thinners to counter the EPO.

At any rate, yeah, EPO can increase you athletic performance if you train properly... but it's dangerous shiat. I for one, do not like the idea of sleeping with a heart monitor to wake me up if it slows down too much so I can hop on an exercise bike to get it going again.

In the words of one guy...

"During the day we live to ride, and at night, we ride to stay alive"

Sounds like great fun, no? 


In 2006 I spent 6 weeks doing some mountain biking in the Cordillera Blanca near Huaraz, Peru. Huaraz was my lowest elevation 10,000 feet and most of the riding I did was over 12,000 as high as 16,500 feet.
Coming back home with that acclimatization it was staggering the difference in my riding, if I was climbing say 1000 feet of elevation in an hour normally, I was probably doing 1250 feet per hour. Would have never believed it. I also maintained this acclimatization for a month or so which I would have not thought possible. Mind you, I acclimate well, which may be why I retain it well.
What blows the mind is that you can get that 20% in a syringe or a blood transfusion. If you read the Reasoned Decision and see how the doctors manage the doping you realize it is virtually impossible to get caught. Tempting.....very tempting.....
 
2012-10-22 12:09:27 PM

browntimmy: drewsclues: Tyrone Slothrop: drewsclues: lohphat: drewsclues: earthwirm: In before the Lance haters.... Oh. Too late. Everyone hates a winner.

There's a a lot of smug whining in this thread. I glad you all attribute such high morals to riding a goddam bicycle. Get over it. Winners take every advantage and bend every rule. If you you're not cheating, you're not trying. Period.

You sound Conservative.

Liberal as they come. I just don't think sports matter enough in the world to get all pissed when someone bends to rules to their advantage. Don't want to get pissed when people make money off cheating at sports? Stop paying billions to the people that play the games. Simple as that.

And yet your attitude describes the Republican platform perfectly.

And yours describes the Democrat platform; whining rather than doing.

It's hilarious that you think the position, "people shouldn't cheat" is whining. Sorry about the shiatty parents and role models you had.


I agree with you, people shouldn't cheat. But they do and sometimes they win, and most of them are never caught. Cheaters will always win. Accept it. It's way past the time to get outraged about people bending the rules. Someone biatching about something that happens all the time and continues to biatch about it when it happens over and over and over is a whiner.
 
2012-10-22 12:10:53 PM

lohphat: Joe Blowme: Unless they are cheating the immigration system, welfare, elections, ect... you know... the shiat that actually matters then its ok to right?

You're including the employers that willingly and knowingly hire undocumented workers to protect their profits right? Do you think those people are working in crappy slave conditions because they want to?

Want to solve the immigration problem? Jail a few agribusiness and construction CEOs and seize their assets for hiring undocumented workers. They're creating the employment market drawing them here.


Right, its not the sanctuary cities and welfare bennefits luring them here. Which party again is against voter ID, implements sanctuary cities, and gives DLs to illegals? But cheating is bad right?
 
2012-10-22 12:10:55 PM

Molavian: What a f*cking liar. I knew that damn testicular cancer thing was a cover-up! He had one of his balls surgically removed to be a more competitive cyclist! His junk could then all flop to the same side when biking, allowing him to sprint more easily than those with both testicles!!

!!!!


Yeah, that's Robin Willams, Cheater!
 
2012-10-22 12:12:53 PM
cyclingteammovistar.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-10-22 12:12:57 PM

Skarekrough: machoprogrammer: In before the Lance apologists

I won't apologize for him.

However no one gave a crap about cycling before him and no one will likely give a crap about the sport after him.

In between his influence generated millions upon millions for bike manufacturers, clothing makers, membership fees for bicycle race orgs and Christ knows what else.

It's a dumb move to shorten that gravy train a single day longer than it needed to be. For the sake of all parties involved investigations should have concluded for everyone racing, organizing and coaching before they'd outed him.

I know....I know. "Bicycling doesn't need a cheater." Sure. Right. Like the past fifteen years of near light-speed advancements in cycling would have happened without him on the merits of a sport no one gave a shiat about.

Keep thinking that. It'll be important to remember when they're tearing down the velodrome to make way for a skate park.


In the US... I am sorry that you've only had one competent racer all this time. Now it's back to non-relevance.
 
2012-10-22 12:17:53 PM

steve_wmn: Indurain, like Armstrong made several attempts at the TdF with mediocre results.

that like saying umm Derek Jeter is not a good baseball player
Miguel beat some top riders who were the best of all time, including Delgado whom he rode for.

Then both of them consulted with Italian EPO doping experts (Indurain with Francesco Conconi, Armstrong with Conconi's disciple Ferrari) and started winning the TdF several years in a row.
source?

Indurain outsmarted Lance by taking his palmares, retiring and living a nice quiet life. Armstrong did anything but and it has back fired on in enormously.
Indurain was going to sign with ONCE, but left cycling because Banesto forced him to ride the Vuelta in 1996, not our proudest team moment.

what else ya got?
 
2012-10-22 12:17:56 PM

waterrockets: Headso: hopefully this will reduce the number of douchebag cyclists using roads for exercise equipment and inconveniencing everyone else as they do it.

Nope. I don't know anybody in my local racing community who does it because of Lance or anyone else.

So roads are single use? Mostly to take your 6000 lbs vehicle to go buy 17 lbs worth of groceries?


yeah roads are for commerce and they are paid for with gas taxes. People are nice enough to let cyclist douches use them as exercise equipment but instead of acknowledging that and respecting their primary purpose and those people using them for their primary purpose cyclists ride on roads with no shoulder or break down lane or if they are they ride as close to the lane people are driving in as possible. So every last person that passes them has to slow down. One cyclist douche riding his stupid road bike around town for excise probably inconveniences hundreds if not thousands of people, no other recreational activity does that including other forms of biking.
 
2012-10-22 12:19:41 PM

mbillodeaux: Zizzowop: Given how physically fit he was/is, like Lewis Black said, the question isn't was he doping, the question is why aren't we all doping.

I wish I was as concise!
Well done.


We should be celebrating Armstrong, rather than castigating him.

Dock Ellis' no-hitter on LSD is a greater accomplishment than all seven of Nolan Ryan's...although this...

media.komonews.com

...outshines them all.
 
2012-10-22 12:21:13 PM

TheOther: mbillodeaux: Zizzowop: Given how physically fit he was/is, like Lewis Black said, the question isn't was he doping, the question is why aren't we all doping.

I wish I was as concise!
Well done.

We should be celebrating Armstrong, rather than castigating him.

Dock Ellis' no-hitter on LSD is a greater accomplishment than all seven of Nolan Ryan's...although this...

[media.komonews.com image 320x348]

...outshines them all.


Nolan Ryan rules.
 
2012-10-22 12:21:26 PM

TheOther:

We should be celebrating Armstrong, rather than castigating him.

 
2012-10-22 12:21:34 PM
And while I'm at it, if you think you are saving gas and the planet by riding your bike to work if you are making every car that goes by you put their brakes on to avoid hitting your retarded ass then you are not saving the planet, you are probably causing more gasoline to be used than if you just drove a hummer to work.
 
2012-10-22 12:22:27 PM

Obama4Life: Nobody could win 7 consecutive Titles without a little outside help.


Bill Russell Agrees
 
kab
2012-10-22 12:24:46 PM

expobill: [cyclingteammovistar.files.wordpress.com image 500x286]


Delgado = probenecid
 
2012-10-22 12:28:07 PM

New Age Redneck: If you read the Reasoned Decision and see how the doctors manage the doping you realize it is virtually impossible to get caught. Tempting.....very tempting.....


Sounds like microdosing is the way to go.... Especially for me - mediocre at best on the flats, yet absolutely horrible in the hills. Thank god for mountain biking I say! It's still fun but it's hard to see how much I suck for all the trees in the way.

steve_wmn: Lemond's miracle recovery from dud in the Giro to winner of the TdF in 1989? Iron shots, totally.


And that's why it's worth it see see cycling cleaned up once and for all and a perfect illustration of why doping is so insiduous. Human beings on occasion ARE capable of periodic amazing feats seemingly out of nowhere. Like Bob Beamon. But unless the drugs are ceased they'll all just be written off to PED's instead of celebrated for the amazing feats they were.
 
2012-10-22 12:28:20 PM

Joe Peanut: Obama4Life: Nobody could win 7 consecutive Titles without a little outside help.

Which is why they should investigate Michael Schumacher. He must have been injecting nitrous oxide into his engine.

/derp


Schumacher's not exactly the best example of a clean winner. Lots of FIA/Ferrari Shenanigans, and several race suspesnions during his Benetton days for team cheating, plus they weren't 7 consecutive.

/Still one of the two best ever
//Senna
 
2012-10-22 12:30:10 PM

Headso: And while I'm at it,


While you're at it... just GTFO already. We get it - you don't ride bikes. That's cool dude. Very cool.
 
2012-10-22 12:30:13 PM
I'll preface this by saying that Lance is a stereotypical type-A, cocky, texan jackhole.... but it was this jackholery that also enabled him to compete at that level after cancer.

Cycling is a corrupt sport full of filthy, dirty dopers & always has been. In the 60s & 70s they pedaled on meth & in the 80s & 90s on 'roids. This is the era of blood doping, hgh & designed recovery hormones.

Lance was 'in compliance' with the tests he was given at the time of victory, anything else is just ex post facto BS. I'm not some fan saying 'Elvis never did no drugs' I'm sure Lance was doping, just like the rest of the riders in the peloton. His body just took to the doping a little better than they did. Maybe a future rider will experiment with nut cancer drugs trying to find Lance's edge, but he was still beating a bunch of dopers just like himself so I don't see the problem except for all that hypocrisy pedaling up the mountain in the peloton.

Unless they vacate every victory of every cyclist & give the Tour, Giro & Vuelta titles to Christophe Bassoons they are just blowing smoke up your ass about the doping thing.
 
2012-10-22 12:35:01 PM

Dopgang: but he was still beating a bunch of dopers just like himself


No, not JUST like himself. The other teams didn't have the benefit of a sponsor making a giant 'donation' to the testing authority and occasional early warnings. The other teams almost certainly didn't have all eight other riders on a sophisticated doping system - they had a doper here, a doper there, not the team wide coordinated effort of team armstrong. And they certainly didn't have all of Ferrari's microdosing/saline expertise.
 
2012-10-22 12:38:22 PM

expobill: steve_wmn: Indurain, like Armstrong made several attempts at the TdF with mediocre results.
that like saying umm Derek Jeter is not a good baseball player
Miguel beat some top riders who were the best of all time, including Delgado whom he rode for.

Then both of them consulted with Italian EPO doping experts (Indurain with Francesco Conconi, Armstrong with Conconi's disciple Ferrari) and started winning the TdF several years in a row.
source?

Indurain outsmarted Lance by taking his palmares, retiring and living a nice quiet life. Armstrong did anything but and it has back fired on in enormously.
Indurain was going to sign with ONCE, but left cycling because Banesto forced him to ride the Vuelta in 1996, not our proudest team moment.

what else ya got?


Consulting with Conconi since 1987: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_Indurain#Physical_advantages. All that stuff about his amazing physical advantages on Wikipedia? Yeah, doping does that for you, especially the VO2Max numbers. The lung capacity number is meaningless except as a psychological tool. Got smaller lungs? Breathe faster, problem solved.

And just like Lance, when Indurain made him amazing turn around from time trial specialist to all-round rider and tour winner they said it was because he lost weight under supervision from an Italian Doctor who is mostly famous for his expertise in EPO administration and passing doping tests http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Conconi.
 
2012-10-22 12:39:25 PM

kab: expobill: [cyclingteammovistar.files.wordpress.com image 500x286]

Delgado = probenecid


Delgado wore the "maillot jaune" for eleven days, and passed doping tests every day. There was no trace of probenecid nor steroids in any other test. He affirmed that he would always be grateful for the support received from the French public during those days.

/sorry i need to defend my riders!
 
kab
2012-10-22 12:41:07 PM

JohnBigBootay: And that's why it's worth it see see cycling cleaned up once and for all and a perfect illustration of why doping is so insiduous. Human beings on occasion ARE capable of periodic amazing feats seemingly out of nowhere. Like Bob Beamon. But unless the drugs are ceased they'll all just be written off to PED's instead of celebrated for the amazing feats they were.


Cycling is not going to 'clean up', especially when you consider how grueling some of the races are. As I stated earlier, drug testing has been going on for almost 5 decades now in the sport, and the only thing that has changed is the cat and mouse game involved.

But you're correct, you won't see any amazing mountain stages happening, without the first assumption going through most minds that "well, he's clearly doping".
 
2012-10-22 12:41:42 PM
LOl, all this to do about guys riding bicycles.
 
2012-10-22 12:42:18 PM

To The Escape Zeppelin!: The medals will go to racers who's doping hasn't been caught yet.


is that how it works?

i figured they would just strip his title and that's it. like the NCAA did to PSU - it's not like they went back 30 years and gave every team they beat and extra win - the wins are just vacated.
 
2012-10-22 12:42:41 PM

JohnBigBootay: Dopgang: but he was still beating a bunch of dopers just like himself

No, not JUST like himself. The other teams didn't have the benefit of a sponsor making a giant 'donation' to the testing authority and occasional early warnings. The other teams almost certainly didn't have all eight other riders on a sophisticated doping system - they had a doper here, a doper there, not the team wide coordinated effort of team armstrong. And they certainly didn't have all of Ferrari's microdosing/saline expertise.


Umm, bullchit. No human could ride in that group w/o the "spice".

The lesson here is don't fark Rup Murdoch.
 
2012-10-22 12:43:26 PM

JeffDudeLebowski: BIIIIIIIIIIII-cycle

BIIIIIIIIIIII-cycle

BIIIIIIIIIIII-cycle

I want to ride my bicycle I want to ride my biiiike I want to ride my biCYCLE I want to ride it where I liiiiiiiike

but i can't because I got buuuuuuuusted!


don't be such a queen
 
2012-10-22 12:44:12 PM

Cheron: Armstrong stripped of Tour de France Titles, staged Moon Landing

and sham marriage to Sheryl Crow. 
FTFY
 
2012-10-22 12:46:45 PM
When is the hanging scheduled?

Does everyone have their pitchforks and torches?
 
2012-10-22 12:51:55 PM
Alright, is it just me or is ALL of this evidence against him hearsay? By people that didn't win and former butthurt teammates no less...
The evidence was so scant in fact, that federal prosecutors DROPPED the case against him due to lack of evidence.
 
2012-10-22 12:54:05 PM
Never trust a bicyclist
 
2012-10-22 12:54:18 PM

Contrabulous Flabtraption: LOl, all this to do about guys riding bicycles.


Guys that make more money riding bicycles in 10-15 years than you'll make in your lifetime. Professional cycling is the best paying sport available to endurance athletes. With that big money comes big incentives to cheat.
 
2012-10-22 12:56:05 PM

Dopgang:
Unless they vacate every victory of every cyclist & give the Tour, Giro & Vuelta titles to Christophe Bassoons they are just blowing smoke up your ass about the doping thing.


That was one of the more insightful comments on this thread.

Regardless of whether or not Lance doped, if the UCI just turns around and immediately hands the titles to the next person in line then it shows that this whole thing had nothing to do with doping and more to do with pursuing one individual.

Cycling is a dirty sport - always has been. The truth of the matter is that many, perhaps most of the riders on the Tour dope. Anyone who believes otherwise is completely delusional. All Lance did was beat them at their own game (making a lot of enemies along the way, of course).
 
2012-10-22 12:56:42 PM
On a related note, the members of Kraftwerk were stripped of their bicycles.
 
2012-10-22 12:56:44 PM

mikaloyd: Never trust a bicyclist


hey!
 
2012-10-22 12:57:44 PM

steve_wmn: Contrabulous Flabtraption: LOl, all this to do about guys riding bicycles.

Guys that make more money riding bicycles in 10-15 years than you'll make in your lifetime. Professional cycling is the best paying sport available to endurance athletes. With that big money comes big incentives to cheat.


No doubt there's a lot of money in it, which actually makes it even more ridiculous that we're paying so much attention to men riding bicycles.
 
2012-10-22 12:58:01 PM
Democrats like downtrodden helpless people who lack effective voices. Republicans like rich people who buy what they want. Both parties strive to turn all of America into the kind of people they like.
 
2012-10-22 12:58:05 PM

DeathCipris: Alright, is it just me or is ALL of this evidence against him hearsay?


People in this thread keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
 
2012-10-22 12:59:43 PM

mikes73:

Cycling is a dirty sport - always has been. The truth of the matter is that many, perhaps most of the riders on the Tour dope. Anyone who believes otherwise is completely delusional. All Lance did was beat them at their own game (making a lot of enemies along the way, of course).


i think not, the sport is clean because we scrubbed some dirty dishes and put them away today.
there are more clean riders than dirty ones which is a fact due to team carrying 20 or more riders, which a few failed tests this season.
happy cycling!
 
2012-10-22 12:59:46 PM

expobill: mikaloyd: Never trust a bicyclist

hey!


Are you trustworthy?
 
2012-10-22 01:01:35 PM

DeathCipris: Alright, is it just me or is ALL of this evidence against him hearsay?


Yet another buffoon with no understanding of the definition of 'hearsay'. Hint - a witness describing what he has seen directly is not in any way shape or form hearsay. It's really quite simple, that's called eyewitness testimony - and we use it convict rapists and murderers every day of the week. So in answer to your question, it's just you. Look, if Lance has a brain is his head and is not - as I fear, a high functioning sociopath - he'll be confessing himself shortly and speaking the lamest way too late halfhearted apology you've ever heard. Will THAT be enough for you?
 
2012-10-22 01:01:52 PM

sleep lack: Dude had cancer 16 years ago and still alive.
/WINNING


Dude had low-risk seminoma testicular cancer. Compared to some other cancers, that's just slightly worse than a bad head cold. Even with metastatic disease, you can still get >90% chance at a durable remission with surgical resection, radiation, and four cycles of etoposide + cisplatin, like Lance got (and he wasn't metastatic).
 
2012-10-22 01:03:34 PM
As someone who does not own a car and is forced to ride his bicycle into work; let me tell you that I absolutely hate cyclists. Finding out Lance Armstrong and all the other lying bastards were lying bastards sets right my world view.

What I find most pathetic about this is how he's all, 'I NEVER FAILED A TEST! I'M LEGIT!'

And believe believe it.
 
2012-10-22 01:08:50 PM
This will be fun. In 100 years it will look as though the Tour was not raced for more than a decade. "Well, kids, there were no winners. They were all losers."

Fark this revisionist crap. They should have closed the book on each Tour within 12 months of its completion. They were all dopers. We've known this for some time. So one doper beat the other dopers. Sounds like a legit win to me.
 
2012-10-22 01:10:15 PM
still no cure for cancer.
 
2012-10-22 01:10:42 PM

mikaloyd: expobill: mikaloyd: Never trust a bicyclist

hey!

Are you trustworthy?


I'm the most trustworthy person you'll ever meet dingleberry, and no, I'm not one of these cyclists that rides in the middle of a lane disrupting traffic. I'll ride up on sidewalks or whatever to avoid cars.
 
2012-10-22 01:10:56 PM

DeathCipris: Alright, is it just me or is ALL of this evidence against him hearsay? By people that didn't win and former butthurt teammates no less...
The evidence was so scant in fact, that federal prosecutors DROPPED the case against him due to lack of evidence.


Hearsay is when someone tells you they did something, or even worse, someone else tells you that he did something. What we have here is direct eye witness testimony, from people that saw Lance take drugs or were ordered to take drugs by Lance and Johann Bruyneel. The federal case was dropped because doping is not a federal crime in the US. The worst they were going to get him on was defrauding the Postal Service or something like that. Small potatoes for the Justice Department that still hasn't prosecuted anyone for the mortgage backed securities and derivatives fraud that brought the world economy down.
 
2012-10-22 01:12:39 PM

mikaloyd: expobill: mikaloyd: Never trust a bicyclist

hey!

Are you trustworthy?


too trustworthy
/trust me!
 
2012-10-22 01:12:52 PM

jchic: Okay, so this means that they are 100% sure that everyone else is clean and Lance was the only cheater right? Right?

Yea, that's what I thought.


The whole case centered around the fact that something like two dozen of his teammates from over the years came forward to finger him, either being caught or admitting to their own doping in the process.

So no. They're 100% sure that lots of people are dirty.
 
2012-10-22 01:14:36 PM

JohnBigBootay: Zizzowop: Given how physically fit he was/is, like Lewis Black said, the question isn't was he doping, the question is why aren't we all doping.

With EPO - good luck. Some supremely fit cyclists have died in their sleep while trying to pump the old catchup blood. I know what you are saying, 'just take blood thinners!'. Well, there's the guy who bled out from a miinor injury from taking to many blood thinners to counter the EPO.

At any rate, yeah, EPO can increase you athletic performance if you train properly... but it's dangerous shiat. I for one, do not like the idea of sleeping with a heart monitor to wake me up if it slows down too much so I can hop on an exercise bike to get it going again.

In the words of one guy...

"During the day we live to ride, and at night, we ride to stay alive"

Sounds like great fun, no?


that is some interesting and scary shiat. makes me think of the bed chamber for the swimmer guy - michael phelps to simulate being at altitude. probably not as dangerous (have no idea really...seems like getting the bends when you get up to pee at night would be no fun) but still... sleeping in darth vaders chamber don't sound like a good time.
 
2012-10-22 01:15:09 PM

TeamEd: destrip: How can they accuse him of cheating if he never failed a doping test?

If you kill a series of people in cold blood but have the good sense to destroy all physical evidence linking you to the crimes, you better believe you'll be convicted if five years later a dozen credible witnesses come forward to testify to your guilt, in detail.


... admitted cheaters are credible?

really?
 
2012-10-22 01:17:47 PM
i have a question.....who watched any cycling events this year?
a yes or no would be fine.
 
2012-10-22 01:19:20 PM
blockhouse Dude had low-risk seminoma testicular cancer. Compared to some other cancers, that's just slightly worse than a bad head cold. Even with metastatic disease, you can still get >90% chance at a durable remission with surgical resection, radiation, and four cycles of etoposide + cisplatin, like Lance got (and he wasn't metastatic).

Dude, his cancer had spread to his abdomen, lungs and brain and he was given a 40% chance of survival after surgery. What do you think metastasized means.
 
2012-10-22 01:20:37 PM
Yes
 
2012-10-22 01:22:27 PM

damat01: blockhouse Dude had low-risk seminoma testicular cancer. Compared to some other cancers, that's just slightly worse than a bad head cold. Even with metastatic disease, you can still get >90% chance at a durable remission with surgical resection, radiation, and four cycles of etoposide + cisplatin, like Lance got (and he wasn't metastatic).

Dude, his cancer had spread to his abdomen, lungs and brain and he was given a 40% chance of survival after surgery. What do you think metastasized means.


Aren't medical records confidential?

At this point - can anyone trust anything the guy has said?
 
2012-10-22 01:27:58 PM

damat01: Yes


i know you do......
 
2012-10-22 01:28:12 PM

Sybarite: Does anyone really think the guys who finished second, third, and fourth in all those races weren't doping as well?


i47.tinypic.com

That's why it's "under review" instead of automatically giving it to the guy who came in second, third , etc.
 
2012-10-22 01:30:54 PM
Armstrong didn't even have cancer! Lies upon lies upon lies!
 
2012-10-22 01:32:08 PM

Mr_Ectomy: Sybarite: Does anyone really think the guys who finished second, third, and fourth in all those races weren't doping as well?

[i47.tinypic.com image 212x290]

That's why it's "under review" instead of automatically giving it to the guy who came in second, third , etc.


Banesto should get some team TDF and some cash as well!
 
2012-10-22 01:36:07 PM

kriegfusion: Obama4Life: Nobody could win 7 consecutive Titles without a little outside help.


Unless of course the event is exactly the same or very close to the same thing over and over again.

/thinks there's too many olympic swimming events.
//Doesn't consider Phelps having more than 2 or 3 gold medals at most.


I am curious as to why you think there are too many olympic swimming events ... other than having to watch all of them on NBC during their 'wonderful' olympic coverage. I will tell you that, for example, the 100 back stroke and 200 backstroke may appear very similar to some one watching the races. But how they are swum, strategy, stroke technique, use of the walls and starts are all very different in those two races ...
 
2012-10-22 01:37:29 PM

d23: maybe doping should be mandatory.


I've been saying this for YEARS!
 
rka
2012-10-22 01:49:53 PM

JohnBigBootay: The other teams almost certainly didn't have all eight other riders on a sophisticated doping system - they had a doper here, a doper there, not the team wide coordinated effort of team armstrong.


Is that why the entire Astana team had to withdraw in 2007?

Was that a coordinated team effort or just half the team coincidentally doping on their own?
 
2012-10-22 01:52:50 PM
inner ted


JohnBigBootay: Zizzowop: Given how physically fit he was/is, like Lewis Black said, the question isn't was he doping, the question is why aren't we all doping.

With EPO - good luck. Some supremely fit cyclists have died in their sleep while trying to pump the old catchup blood. I know what you are saying, 'just take blood thinners!'. Well, there's the guy who bled out from a miinor injury from taking to many blood thinners to counter the EPO.

At any rate, yeah, EPO can increase you athletic performance if you train properly... but it's dangerous shiat. I for one, do not like the idea of sleeping with a heart monitor to wake me up if it slows down too much so I can hop on an exercise bike to get it going again.

In the words of one guy...

"During the day we live to ride, and at night, we ride to stay alive"

Sounds like great fun, no?

that is some interesting and scary shiat. makes me think of the bed chamber for the swimmer guy - michael phelps to simulate being at altitude. probably not as dangerous (have no idea really...seems like getting the bends when you get up to pee at night would be no fun) but still... sleeping in darth vaders chamber don't sound like a good time. 


Essentially EPO and blood doping mimic the same changes your body goes through to adapt to altitude. Going to run a marathon at sea level? Go train for 2 weeks in Colorado at 12,000 feet. You will be stunned. Legal, natural blood doping. It can be done naturally but the logistics.....

Here is a photo of me blood doping, all natural, in compliance with all the anti-doping rules....nicer view than a team bus and a fridge, too....riding at 13,000 feet near Huaraz, Peru

imageshack.us
 
2012-10-22 01:54:06 PM

JohnBigBootay: Zizzowop: Given how physically fit he was/is, like Lewis Black said, the question isn't was he doping, the question is why aren't we all doping.

With EPO - good luck. Some supremely fit cyclists have died in their sleep while trying to pump the old catchup blood. I know what you are saying, 'just take blood thinners!'. Well, there's the guy who bled out from a miinor injury from taking to many blood thinners to counter the EPO.

At any rate, yeah, EPO can increase you athletic performance if you train properly... but it's dangerous shiat. I for one, do not like the idea of sleeping with a heart monitor to wake me up if it slows down too much so I can hop on an exercise bike to get it going again.

In the words of one guy...

"During the day we live to ride, and at night, we ride to stay alive"

Sounds like great fun, no?


Sounds like a risk these men willingly take upon themselves, no?
 
2012-10-22 01:54:17 PM

dave2198: ... admitted cheaters are credible?

really?


You say that as if our prisons aren't stuffed with people who are there because of the testimony of co-conspirators.

Like I've told the other (vastly dwindling) naysayers - will you believe it after his lame apology probably coming later this week? Why do you want to believe him so bad?
 
2012-10-22 01:57:26 PM
Strip the little biatch of all his winnings and sponsor money, too.
 
2012-10-22 01:58:06 PM

rka: Is that why the entire Astana team had to withdraw in 2007?

Was that a coordinated team effort or just half the team coincidentally doping on their own?


Doubtless there are a few others who had doped teams though it stands to reason that many teams' sponsors would rather simply skip the race and save the expense if their feature rider was under suspicion. Many teams have withdrawn for suspicion or a positive on only one rider. In the US postal example we know the whole team was dirty because they've all admitted it. Except for lance of course.
 
2012-10-22 01:58:09 PM

maddermaxx: kregh99: destrip: How can they accuse him of cheating if he never failed a doping test?

And we're done.
(not really, but we should be.)

All of the evidence is circumstantial at best. Guilt by association is not evidence. If he used, I'm all for stripping his titles. But come up with better evidence than disgruntled non-winners and "because he was around other users, he must have used" crap.

There's quite a few witnesses who were on his own cycling team who also testified against him, 11 of them apparently. These aren't a few disgruntled losers, they're his team mates, and the number of them testifying against him would make it a pretty unlikely conspiracy.


Did they all get banned and stripped of any medal? If not thats pretty hypocritical.
Wonder if any of those guys will have mysterious bicycle accidents.
/Snitches get stiches
 
2012-10-22 01:59:13 PM

kab: BeesNuts: You're hobby is fundamentally disruptive to your community.

Your assessment of what is and is not legal road use is off base, unsurprisingly.

You'll get over it.


Oh hey. Did I say legal? Fancy that. I was pretty sure I said disruptive. LIke... Model rocketry is disruptive if you live in an Airlane and don't check with the local ATC before firing your big ass class FF rocket in the air. Like... running is disruptive if you run on the wrong side of the road, or in high traffic areas during rush hour.

Apparently, you see people attacking your hobby as being illegal when, in fact, nobody said that at all. I find this funny since I used to skateboard... which was actually attacked as illegal... for years.

I'm not sure you'll get over it.

If you want me to hate, I'll hate as follows:
/Go get a trail bike and enjoy a real hobby for once. Nancy.
//Or do the bumps upset your delicate constitution?

///Obviously not serious*
 
2012-10-22 01:59:25 PM
This is why they should just let everyone use anything they want to improve their ability. ANYTHIONG
 
2012-10-22 01:59:56 PM

Alonjar: *shrug* almost any professional athlete you see on television has doped at some point in their lives. If you think otherwise, you are naive. Everyone knows the deal, and everyone knows when the testing happens. You can only detect these things while they're active in your system... and its not like you need to be on it all the time. You bulk and train during the opposite season as testing occurs.

Why do you think the player unions oppose HGH testing so much? Or they agree to things like only testing in the off season.

Of course, this is any field that requires extreme physical performance. You think green berets bulk up to 240 lbs of beast, go off into the field and burn/lose 60 pounds in 3 weeks, then come back and bulk back up to their 240 weight for the text exercise a month or two later naturally too? Hah... hah.... hah....

/I'm not saying I know these things from first hand experience, but I know these things from first hand experience.


You do, of course, have citation on your claims that the green berets are doping?
 
2012-10-22 02:00:05 PM

BeesNuts: Sounds like a risk these men willingly take upon themselves, no?


Yep. One of those risks is surrendering your titles and a suspension from cycling. As oh so many before Armstrong have learned. Lots of those previously banned were banned for mere 'circumstancial' evidence.
 
rka
2012-10-22 02:05:03 PM

JohnBigBootay: rka: Is that why the entire Astana team had to withdraw in 2007?

Was that a coordinated team effort or just half the team coincidentally doping on their own?

Doubtless there are a few others who had doped teams though it stands to reason that many teams' sponsors would rather simply skip the race and save the expense if their feature rider was under suspicion. Many teams have withdrawn for suspicion or a positive on only one rider. In the US postal example we know the whole team was dirty because they've all admitted it. Except for lance of course.


Well, yeah. TMobile dropped their sponsorship because the bulk of their current team, including Ulrich, and many former riders were doping and they wanted no part of it. I suspect that had a lot to do with Discovery dropping out as well.

The sophistication to keep ahead of the doping tests take money. And it takes organization. At some level the teams (if at least the managers/trainers/doctors, if not the outright sponsor themselves) had to be involved. This goes for many more than just USPS.
 
2012-10-22 02:09:27 PM

liam76: lohphat: Don't you tools still feel smug wearing those sheep tags...er, Livestrong[tm] bracelets? You know, for "cancer awareness" that gave nothing to research but mostly into his pocket?

P. T. Barnum wins again.

I am not sure if you are a moron or trolling...


The two conditions are not mutually exclusive...
 
2012-10-22 02:09:58 PM

New Age Redneck: inner ted


JohnBigBootay: Zizzowop: Given how physically fit he was/is, like Lewis Black said, the question isn't was he doping, the question is why aren't we all doping.

With EPO - good luck. Some supremely fit cyclists have died in their sleep while trying to pump the old catchup blood. I know what you are saying, 'just take blood thinners!'. Well, there's the guy who bled out from a miinor injury from taking to many blood thinners to counter the EPO.

At any rate, yeah, EPO can increase you athletic performance if you train properly... but it's dangerous shiat. I for one, do not like the idea of sleeping with a heart monitor to wake me up if it slows down too much so I can hop on an exercise bike to get it going again.

In the words of one guy...

"During the day we live to ride, and at night, we ride to stay alive"

Sounds like great fun, no?

that is some interesting and scary shiat. makes me think of the bed chamber for the swimmer guy - michael phelps to simulate being at altitude. probably not as dangerous (have no idea really...seems like getting the bends when you get up to pee at night would be no fun) but still... sleeping in darth vaders chamber don't sound like a good time. 

Essentially EPO and blood doping mimic the same changes your body goes through to adapt to altitude. Going to run a marathon at sea level? Go train for 2 weeks in Colorado at 12,000 feet. You will be stunned. Legal, natural blood doping. It can be done naturally but the logistics.....

Here is a photo of me blood doping, all natural, in compliance with all the anti-doping rules....nicer view than a team bus and a fridge, too....riding at 13,000 feet near Huaraz, Peru

[imageshack.us image 640x126]


i can dig it
too lazy to google it
but my csb is riding in sun valley, idaho
i live in portland, oregon - almost sea level
felt like i was trying to ride while holding my breath - took every part of 3 days to get used to it - surely rode better once i came back to town... for a few days.
 
2012-10-22 02:13:16 PM

rka: The sophistication to keep ahead of the doping tests take money. And it takes organization. At some level the teams (if at least the managers/trainers/doctors, if not the outright sponsor themselves) had to be involved. This goes for many more than just USPS.


Undoubtedly, though I kind of doubt there are very many (some, not many) examples of the top down coordinated effort employed by Armstrong. But I think a lot of guys were just doing the cowboy method - many of the accounts certainly sound that way. Certainly the guys who died or almost died.
 
2012-10-22 02:14:33 PM

Headso: hopefully this will reduce the number of douchebag cyclists using roads for exercise equipment and inconveniencing everyone else as they do it.


You sound fat.
 
2012-10-22 02:22:16 PM

expobill: i have a question.....who watched any cycling events this year?
a yes or no would be fine.



Yes. Giro, Tour de France, Olympics Veulta and Tour of Britain
 
rka
2012-10-22 02:24:05 PM
So I guess the million dollar question is...was it worth it?

If someone had come to me back in the mid-90s, where I was a pretty good, but not particularly memorable or notable rider and when I was battling cancer and said "You can have 13-14 years as the King of the World, raise millions for charity, basically be the Big Man on Campus. Meet Presidents and CEOs, have unprecedented influence and power...but the downside is you have to cheat and when you're found out you'll be disgraced"....would I take it?
 
2012-10-22 02:31:08 PM

whatshisname: expobill: i have a question.....who watched any cycling events this year?
a yes or no would be fine.


Yes. Giro, Tour de France, Olympics Veulta and Tour of Britain


thank you
 
2012-10-22 02:33:32 PM

lohphat: drewsclues: And yet your attitude describes the Republican platform perfectly.

And yours describes the Democrat platform; whining rather than doing.

I'd rather have a Democratic party that whines about lying and cheating instead of the GOP which embraces those values wholeheartedly.


BOOOOSH!
 
2012-10-22 02:35:14 PM

rka: So I guess the million dollar question is...was it worth it?

If someone had come to me back in the mid-90s, where I was a pretty good, but not particularly memorable or notable rider and when I was battling cancer and said "You can have 13-14 years as the King of the World, raise millions for charity, basically be the Big Man on Campus. Meet Presidents and CEOs, have unprecedented influence and power...but the downside is you have to cheat and when you're found out you'll be disgraced"....would I take it?


Christophe Bassons would have said, 'non, I still have to look at myself in the mirror don't I?"

We know what high-functioning sociopath Lance Armstrong said. Dude sends threatening text messages to other riders' wives and sleeps like a baby. Some people just don't have a conscience.

Then you have lots of guys in the middle - like Hincapie. He made the same choice - he cheated. But I think it bugged the hell out of him and when faced with a subpoena he couldn't lie anymore. Armstrong would have carried the secret to his grave with no doubts whatsoever.
 
2012-10-22 02:38:20 PM

expobill: thank you


Heh. Do local crits, MTB and xcross events count?
 
2012-10-22 02:40:01 PM

rka: So I guess the million dollar question is...was it worth it?

If someone had come to me back in the mid-90s, where I was a pretty good, but not particularly memorable or notable rider and when I was battling cancer and said "You can have 13-14 years as the King of the World, raise millions for charity, basically be the Big Man on Campus. Meet Presidents and CEOs, have unprecedented influence and power...but the downside is you have to cheat and when you're found out you'll be disgraced"....would I take it?



OJ Simpson disgraced or Barry Bonds disgraced? As long as I can still get money from my Swiss bank account, I could live with a Barry Bonds level of disgrace. 13 or 14 years as King of The World is a pretty good run and a lifetime of good memories. If I knew about the disgrace in advance and could sow my wild oats accordingly, that much better.
 
rka
2012-10-22 02:45:44 PM

JohnBigBootay: rka: So I guess the million dollar question is...was it worth it?

If someone had come to me back in the mid-90s, where I was a pretty good, but not particularly memorable or notable rider and when I was battling cancer and said "You can have 13-14 years as the King of the World, raise millions for charity, basically be the Big Man on Campus. Meet Presidents and CEOs, have unprecedented influence and power...but the downside is you have to cheat and when you're found out you'll be disgraced"....would I take it?

Christophe Bassons would have said, 'non, I still have to look at myself in the mirror don't I?"

We know what high-functioning sociopath Lance Armstrong said. Dude sends threatening text messages to other riders' wives and sleeps like a baby. Some people just don't have a conscience.

Then you have lots of guys in the middle - like Hincapie. He made the same choice - he cheated. But I think it bugged the hell out of him and when faced with a subpoena he couldn't lie anymore. Armstrong would have carried the secret to his grave with no doubts whatsoever.


I never buy the "I cheated, but it tortured me" line from pro athletes. Hincapie didn't come forward on his own, he was dragged kicking and screaming before the Man. Just like every other pro athlete who gets caught.

When money gets involved, almost everyone will cheat to some extent. Even something as minor as a football player taping his jersey to make sure no one gets a good grip, or the offensive lineman holding on every single play, or the Chargers and their current "StickUm" investigation. Spygate (1 and 2). A bit more pine tar than strictly legal on the bat...or in the pitcher's black baseball mitt. It goes on and on and on.
 
2012-10-22 02:50:00 PM

Uchiha_Cycliste: ranold: DO YOU EVEN CYCLE?

lather, rinse, repeat...?


smelly cat smelly cat what have been feeding you
 
rka
2012-10-22 02:53:23 PM

steve_wmn: rka: So I guess the million dollar question is...was it worth it?

If someone had come to me back in the mid-90s, where I was a pretty good, but not particularly memorable or notable rider and when I was battling cancer and said "You can have 13-14 years as the King of the World, raise millions for charity, basically be the Big Man on Campus. Meet Presidents and CEOs, have unprecedented influence and power...but the downside is you have to cheat and when you're found out you'll be disgraced"....would I take it?


OJ Simpson disgraced or Barry Bonds disgraced? As long as I can still get money from my Swiss bank account, I could live with a Barry Bonds level of disgrace. 13 or 14 years as King of The World is a pretty good run and a lifetime of good memories. If I knew about the disgrace in advance and could sow my wild oats accordingly, that much better.


Yeah, Barry Bonds level disgraced. We're not talking killing people here. I mean is it morally wrong to cheat the other cheaters? Strictly speaking yes, but I probably wouldn't lose much sleep over it either.

Reminds me of that famous scene in "Pirates of Silicon Valley" where Steve Jobs is complaining to Bill Gates about stealing Apple's ideas. Gates says we're like 2 guys living next to a rich neighbor (Xerox) and mocks Jobs for complaining that he wanted to steal from Xerox first. "I GOT THE LOOT STEVE!"

That's pretty much what doping in cycling is to me. A bunch of cheaters complaining that someone out-cheated them.
 
2012-10-22 02:54:38 PM

Mock26: You do, of course, have citation on your claims that the green berets are doping?


Only my personal experience with the ones I have known. Nobody is trying to stop/catch them, if you're looking for proof of investigations or something. Just like nobody really tries to stop police officers.


Its the dirty little secret everybody knows about, but is never discussed.
 
rka
2012-10-22 02:59:40 PM

Mock26: Alonjar: *shrug* almost any professional athlete you see on television has doped at some point in their lives. If you think otherwise, you are naive. Everyone knows the deal, and everyone knows when the testing happens. You can only detect these things while they're active in your system... and its not like you need to be on it all the time. You bulk and train during the opposite season as testing occurs.

Why do you think the player unions oppose HGH testing so much? Or they agree to things like only testing in the off season.

Of course, this is any field that requires extreme physical performance. You think green berets bulk up to 240 lbs of beast, go off into the field and burn/lose 60 pounds in 3 weeks, then come back and bulk back up to their 240 weight for the text exercise a month or two later naturally too? Hah... hah.... hah....

/I'm not saying I know these things from first hand experience, but I know these things from first hand experience.

You do, of course, have citation on your claims that the green berets are doping?


Wikipedia has a couple of cite notes. Take it for what it's worth though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_doping#Military_use
 
2012-10-22 03:03:09 PM

expobill: i have a question.....who watched any cycling events this year?
a yes or no would be fine.


Yes. Tour de France, bits of the Vuelta, bits of the Tour of Britain, men's and women's Olympic road race, time trial and triathlons, enormous amounts of Olympic and Paralympic track cycling.
 
2012-10-22 03:07:55 PM

maddermaxx: kregh99: destrip: How can they accuse him of cheating if he never failed a doping test?

And we're done.
(not really, but we should be.)

All of the evidence is circumstantial at best. Guilt by association is not evidence. If he used, I'm all for stripping his titles. But come up with better evidence than disgruntled non-winners and "because he was around other users, he must have used" crap.

There's quite a few witnesses who were on his own cycling team who also testified against him, 11 of them apparently. These aren't a few disgruntled losers, they're his team mates, and the number of them testifying against him would make it a pretty unlikely conspiracy.


I think only one of them was still considered his 'friend', Landis came out in the open after getting snubbed - and a number of the testimonies they got were by people Armstrong had tossed to the side. There is certainly some cloudiness to the water, but how much, nobody can say for sure.

This would be a lot easier if he had a positive test (both samples, not just one sample) that everyone could point to for proof.

That being said, my personal take on the matter is that he did what he did better than anyone else at the time who was doing the same things. If you want to take the the 'evidence' at face value, you should look to the beginning of the report where it highlights an interaction Armstrong had which basically boiled down to him realizing that to be an actual competitor, he had to dope because everyone else at the time was doing it.

Going after Armstrong, who is a symptom of a larger problem, isn't the answer. An entire overhaul of the sport is needed, through every organization, sponsor, training facility, doctor, regulation, etc. When the sport itself is forcing people to dope in order to be competitive, that's your sign that it's time to change - not to blame the competitive riders who end up doping after your top podium finishers already are.
 
rka
2012-10-22 03:12:38 PM

expobill: i have a question.....who watched any cycling events this year?
a yes or no would be fine.


TdF, Tour of California, Tour of Colorado, those are appointment TV. I DVR those.

Anything else I happen to catch when flipping past the cycling channel.

DeathByGeekSquad: Going after Armstrong, who is a symptom of a larger problem, isn't the answer.


Neither is pulling over the guy going 110 in a 75. It doesn't stop speeding, but no one says "Well, let's let him go because this won't stop speeding".
 
2012-10-22 03:13:56 PM

rka: So I guess the million dollar question is...was it worth it?

If someone had come to me back in the mid-90s, where I was a pretty good, but not particularly memorable or notable rider and when I was battling cancer and said "You can have 13-14 years as the King of the World, raise millions for charity, basically be the Big Man on Campus. Meet Presidents and CEOs, have unprecedented influence and power...but the downside is you have to cheat and when you're found out you'll be disgraced"....would I take it?


Girl walks into a bar. One guy looks at the other and tells his friend, "If you fark that you'll lose your Johnson."

His friend lowers his eyes for a contemplative moment and replies, "Well, let's get it over with."
 
2012-10-22 03:15:55 PM

Duke_leto_Atredes: Uchiha_Cycliste: ranold: DO YOU EVEN CYCLE?

lather, rinse, repeat...?

smelly cat smelly cat what have been feeding you


smelly cat, smelly cat, it's not your fault.


\I hate myself for knowing that and for remembering it from god knows how long ago =/
 
2012-10-22 03:21:17 PM

Alonjar: Mock26: You do, of course, have citation on your claims that the green berets are doping?

Only my personal experience with the ones I have known. Nobody is trying to stop/catch them, if you're looking for proof of investigations or something. Just like nobody really tries to stop police officers.


Its the dirty little secret everybody knows about, but is never discussed.


Don't know about special forces, but among police?

Steroids are pretty common.
 
2012-10-22 03:27:23 PM
Cycling is doing everything they can to compete with boxing for "least relevant sport in America."
 
2012-10-22 03:36:58 PM

mbillodeaux: EyeballKid: mbillodeaux: If you don't use synthetic oil in your vehicle, you're doing it wrong.

Just sayin...as the times change, so do the ways in which we manipulate efficiency. Always has been, always will be, always should be.

Yes, I'm conservative.

Hell, I'd say you're a speechwriter for conservatives, given the way you re-phrased "cheating" to "manipulating efficiency." What did you call torture? Are you familiar with Orwell's "Politics and the English Language" essay?

Hold up, are you Frank Luntz?

LOL...no. Not familiar with it; but, will read it. Thank you for the reference! A link would be much more efficient for my current mood.

Yes. I like semantics. ;-)


Interesting read. I've always admired Wilde. But I'm truly fond of Ambrose Bierce; especially "The Devil's Dictionary." It's much more to the point, to use an overused cliche.

That being said, (I am having way too much fun with this!) Wilde and others of valuable differences of opinion have always been important sources of information and entertainment for me. I especially love "The Importance..." I think it is one of the most brilliant pieces of literature to ever be written.

Terrible day.
Great conversation!

I can live with that!
 
2012-10-22 03:38:43 PM

maggoo: I've remember when the french cycling federation accused Lance Armstrong for using performance-enhancing drugs, a horde of americans quickly came up with a bunch of conspiracy theories and repeatedly insulted France.

Now the US anti-doping agency points out the exact same conclusions and I hear no apology being given to France and the french.


are you fraking serious??!!?!? you must be french or some really left wing liberal pansy.

this is USA!
as in GO USA USA USA!!!!!!
the USA .... DO NOT apologize.
The USA DO NOT APOLOGIZE!!! 

the greatest country ever in the history of human civilization..... past, present and future makes no apologies whatsoever. Do you ever see God make an apology? well the USA is like the country version of God.

I CANNOT believe the thought even crossed your mind.
 
2012-10-22 03:38:49 PM
So what? It's not like they take away his money he made from doing drugs, now is it?
 
2012-10-22 03:38:54 PM

debo1683: kriegfusion: Obama4Life: Nobody could win 7 consecutive Titles without a little outside help.


Unless of course the event is exactly the same or very close to the same thing over and over again.

/thinks there's too many olympic swimming events.
//Doesn't consider Phelps having more than 2 or 3 gold medals at most.

I am curious as to why you think there are too many olympic swimming events ... other than having to watch all of them on NBC during their 'wonderful' olympic coverage. I will tell you that, for example, the 100 back stroke and 200 backstroke may appear very similar to some one watching the races. But how they are swum, strategy, stroke technique, use of the walls and starts are all very different in those two races ...



I don't wish to diminish the talent of swimming the backstroke, but I can't imagine (speaking as someone not familiar with the sport, only looking at logic) the difference to be all that different. I concede that there may be differences in exactly how much energy each lap is put forth, what kind of strategy could pertain to a swimming event besides 'be faster than the other guys' or 'act like you're slower then explode in the end to surprise', and the use of walls other than to leap from can really be different. As someone once here said, a whole team of basketball players can do many more tactics, strategy and plays than a swimmer, outwit, outmaneuver, and use the court and ball in a hundred different ways, and after *many* games, at the very end, they end up with....one.....gold medal. Just one.
I simply feel when you compare events like cycling, team sports and other more sophisticated events (sophisticated in a sense that means it has more parts then say, swimming, shot put, pole vault etc), I see no reason why swimming should hold more than 2 or 3 medals at best.
I have no doubt there are small nuances in swimming events, but one would have to argue how that is somehow vastly different than nuances in other events. That's my uniformed opinion, not to take away from what was accomplished in the events, just on how they are weighted vs. other events.
 
2012-10-22 03:39:48 PM

EyeballKid: Skarekrough: However no one gave a crap about cycling before him and no one will likely give a crap about the sport after him.

[startwithtypewriters.com image 298x449]
3 time Tour de France winner and former Taco Bell pitchman Greg Lemond may beg to differ. Just because you yourself don't remember something doesn't mean it didn't hapen.


Who? No really... Who?
 
rka
2012-10-22 03:45:09 PM

kriegfusion: I don't wish to diminish the talent of swimming the backstroke, but I can't imagine (speaking as someone not familiar with the sport, only looking at logic) the difference to be all that different.


My nieces both swim in club and high school teams. Every so often, my wife and I will go meet them and their parents at some meet if they swing close to Colorado.

Sweet jesus, is a full swim meet repetitive and boring for just about everyone there. A full day's meet for both the girls and the boys team is just a non-stop assembly line of ... basically the same damn thing. Oh, this one is the 50m fly, but the next one is the 100m fly. TOTALLY DIFFERENT!
 
2012-10-22 03:50:06 PM

EyeballKid: Skarekrough: However no one gave a crap about cycling before him and no one will likely give a crap about the sport after him.

[startwithtypewriters.com image 298x449]
3 time Tour de France winner and former Taco Bell pitchman Greg Lemond may beg to differ. Just because you yourself don't remember something doesn't mean it didn't hapen.


never heard of him even though I do watch TV, including alot of sports, and thats the point. The only pro-cyclist I could ever name was Lance Armstrong and now they destroyed him for something everyone else was doing too. It would be like diving trying to destroy Phelps.

Seriously cycling took out a gun and shot it's own foot when they decided to tear down Lance.
 
2012-10-22 03:50:29 PM

rka: If someone had come to me back in the mid-90s....would I take it?


Why are you asking me?
 
2012-10-22 04:03:41 PM

Digitalstrange: Seriously cycling took out a gun and shot it's own foot when they decided to tear down Lance.


1) "Cycling" didn't do anything. The United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) started this investigation. The International Cycling Union is "cycling", and they covered Lance's ass for years. Coincidentally, in the two years in which positive tests popped up against Lance, 2001 and 2005, Lance made almost $200K in "donations" to the UCI. This would be like A-Rod making a donation to MLB after testing positive.

2) USADA governs any sport which is a signatory to the World Anti-Doping Code, including Olympic sports. Unfortunately for Lance, the UCI is a signatory to the WADA code.

3) Nobody is "tearing down" anybody. The U.S. Congress has given USADA the responsibility to investivate, adjudicate, and punish any U.S. athletes or personnel over which they have jurisdiction. Their investigation in this case was not, believe it or not, centered around Lance Armstrong. Their investigation was centered around doping for the ENTIRE US Postal Service cycling team. They aren't just going after Armstrong, and brought formal charges against 4 other team managers and doctors. 3 of those personnel are still fighting their charges and will have proceedings before an arbitrator to determine their fate.. Armstrong and one other team doctor decided not to fight the charges, and simply allowed USADA to punish them.

The misinformation around this story (mostly fed by Lance's PR team) and downright excuse-making by Lance supporters is frustrating to read.
 
2012-10-22 04:05:07 PM
I have to ask this, to any Armstrong haters.... you DO know that steroids are used to help treat cancer right? Even EPO?
 
2012-10-22 04:08:43 PM

steve_wmn: DeathCipris: Alright, is it just me or is ALL of this evidence against him hearsay? By people that didn't win and former butthurt teammates no less...
The evidence was so scant in fact, that federal prosecutors DROPPED the case against him due to lack of evidence.

Hearsay is when someone tells you they did something, or even worse, someone else tells you that he did something. What we have here is direct eye witness testimony, from people that saw Lance take drugs or were ordered to take drugs by Lance and Johann Bruyneel. The federal case was dropped because doping is not a federal crime in the US. The worst they were going to get him on was defrauding the Postal Service or something like that. Small potatoes for the Justice Department that still hasn't prosecuted anyone for the mortgage backed securities and derivatives fraud that brought the world economy down.


I stand corrected. The evidence presented against him are testimonies from ex-butthurt teammates and people that didn't win along with some hearsay for good measure (see issue with Dr. Ferrari). The federal government dropped the case due to lack of evidence. Plain and simple. They encountered no evidence that would be admissible in a formal court of law for blood doping/illegal substances; thus, closed the book.
I have read through most of the massive "reasoned decision" that the USADA issued and most of the evidence contained therein is ludicrous. Here is a gem straight from the report: "Jonathan Vaughters also believed Armstrong was likely using EPO-there were some tell tale signs, such as Lance carrying around a thermos."
Really? A thermos...that's a piece of evidence you are using to strip a lifetime of achievements away from a man and ruin him? Because he was carrying a thermos and you ASSUMED he is using EPO.
This isn't evidence. This is just people pointing fingers with nothing real to fall back on other than "I saw him...XYZ" Some of their evidence doesn't even match up (see also issue with 2001 race).
I think the man has done a lot of wonderful things in his life and is an inspiration to many people. Now I do hold an appreciation for Lance, but I am still objective and the evidence (or lack thereof) does not point to anything concrete and the people telling the stories have a motive. The situation reeks of politics and people that just want to "get back" at Lance.

Sources:
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/!invesitgations%20and%20enterp ri se%20docs/armstrong-reasoned-decision.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_armstrong#cite_note-61 (I hate using Wikipedia but the damn LA Times article it referenced is broken)


/Can't help but think of a doctor that works on Ferrari's
//VROOM!!
 
2012-10-22 04:15:10 PM
I would also like to add the people that testified against Lance (yes his ex-teammates), were caught and given a reduced sentence for selling someone else out...even if it wasn't true. These people had motive to name Lance, someone winning big and already the target of allegations, to save their own asses.
 
2012-10-22 04:21:05 PM

DeathCipris: I stand corrected. The evidence presented against him are testimonies from ex-butthurt teammates and people that didn't win along with some hearsay for good measure (see issue with Dr. Ferrari). The federal government dropped the case due to lack of evidence. Plain and simple. They encountered no evidence that would be admissible in a formal court of law for blood doping/illegal substances; thus, closed the book.
I have read through most of the massive "reasoned decision" that the USADA issued and most of the evidence contained therein is ludicrous. Here is a gem straight from the report: "Jonathan Vaughters also believed Armstrong was likely using EPO-there were some tell tale signs, such as Lance carrying around a thermos."
Really? A thermos...that's a piece of evidence you are using to strip a lifetime of achievements away from a man and ruin him? Because he was carrying a thermos and you ASSUMED he is using EPO.
This isn't evidence. This is just people pointing fingers with nothing real to fall back on other than "I saw him...XYZ" Some of their evidence doesn't even match up (see also iss ...


You Lance fanboys are so sad to watch. The cognitive dissonance is just oozing from your pores. To take the direct testimony of 26 people and boil it down to one sentence about a thermos is so desperately pathetic and devoid of logic. Would you like me to post the massive metric fark ton of statements

These were his farking teammates and support staff. What did they have to be butt-hurt about? Their farking job was to see to it that Lance Armstrong won those TdFs. You obviously don't understand cycling if you think that his teammates were "butthurt" about not being able to "beat" Lance. Their job was never to beat Lance. It was to be his support. Cycling is a team sport. Why would his personal masseuse be "butt hurt"? Why would his farking BEST FRIEND, George Hincapie, (who never tested positive either, BTW) admit to doping himself and sign an affidavit saying that he saw Lance get blood transfusions and talked about doping with him? Why? For what purpose?

Finally, you simply don't understand what hearsay means. Hearsay is "I heard from so and so that Lance Armstrong did this." Hearsay is not "I farkING saw him do it with my own two eyes." That's direct witness testimony, and that's what is contained in those 26 (twenty farking six) sworn affidavits.
 
2012-10-22 04:22:48 PM
DeathCipris, look how clever you are, you can take one sentence from a report that is over a 1000 pages in length, and condemn it all as bogus. I am impressed.
 
2012-10-22 04:25:16 PM

DeathCipris: I would also like to add the people that testified against Lance (yes his ex-teammates), were caught and given a reduced sentence for selling someone else out...even if it wasn't true. These people had motive to name Lance, someone winning big and already the target of allegations, to save their own asses.


George Hincapie had nothing to gain by speaking out. He'd never tested positive was retiring as one of the most respected riders in the peloton.

Emma O'Reilly had nothing to gain, except the honour of Lance Armstrong calling her an alcoholic and a prostitute.

Betsy Andreue had nothing to gain from speaking out, except the honour of Lance Armstrong calling her a bitter old shrew.

... I could go on (you think Sheryl Crow would lie to Federal investigators for revenge over a failed relationship?) but the vast majority of people who confessed to the USPS would not have been banned if the omerta had held.
 
2012-10-22 04:26:44 PM

DeathCipris: I would also like to add the people that testified against Lance (yes his ex-teammates), were caught and given a reduced sentence for selling someone else out...even if it wasn't true. These people had motive to name Lance, someone winning big and already the target of allegations, to save their own asses.


a) Unfortnuately for you and the other Lance fanboys, Armstrong was declared cancer free in Feb. 1997. He didn't win his first TdF until two years later. EPO stays in your bloodstream for about 5-6 hours.

b) Of the 26 who testified, only 11 were former teammates. Of those 11, 6 of them had ever tested positive IN THE PAST. They had already been punished. USADA had nothing at all on 5 of these guys - including George Hincapie - Armstrong's best friend who Armstrong himself has referred to as a "brother". Hincapie had never failed a test. And what of the other 15 people who aren't even athletes? People like Armstrong's masseuse? What did she stand to gain from this? They can't punish a farking massesuse for anything...
 
2012-10-22 04:28:33 PM

6655321: RCA tried to take his patents about FM from him.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x319]

Eventually, the courts ruled in his favour.


....didn't do him much good - RCA drove him into financial ruin, and he did a swan dive out the window of his New York apartement.
 
2012-10-22 04:33:11 PM
George Carlin, right again.
I almost got in a fight over this bit. I agreed totally at the time and still do. My dad died of cancer and I was sick of this tool years ago. Also tired of pink everything in October.
Link

Athletes are never heroes. They all dope in one way or another. ALL.
 
2012-10-22 04:41:30 PM
Sort of surprised that no one has* at least floated the idea that his testicular cancer was brought on by testosterone abuse. Is that not remotely possible?


* = to the extent that my browser will let me search worth a damn when it's bogged down with 414 posts on a single page
 
2012-10-22 04:46:01 PM
Dope or not, those were some of the best Tours to watch. That guy was always attacking, taking risks. Put that with Ulrich, Hamilton, Rasmussen, Kloden, the whole T-Mobile and USPS teams. Back when Levi was awesome, Vino and Robbie McEwen. I call it an even playing field. Everyone was juiced. I don't think this is a black cloud in any way. Armstrong brought excitement to the sport, hence attention and viewership in the untapped American market.

/not a LA fanboy
//just really like cycling
 
2012-10-22 04:56:23 PM

TanHamster: Sort of surprised that no one has* at least floated the idea that his testicular cancer was brought on by testosterone abuse. Is that not remotely possible?


* = to the extent that my browser will let me search worth a damn when it's bogged down with 414 posts on a single page


It's absolutely possible, but its not something we'll ever know the answer to definitively.
 
2012-10-22 04:57:35 PM
*sigh*
My statement was that is a PIECE of evidence used...morons...clear thinking is very apparently devoid in this thread.
Would you like more of this same style of "We assume...duh" evidence?
How bout:

"Christian Vande Velde also walked in on what he believed to be an EPO injection Dr. del Moral was giving to Kevin Livingston during the 1999
Tour." What he thinks? Seriously?

"At a team training camp in Solvang, California, Armstrong again tried to get Frankie Andreu to begin working with
Michele Ferrari, imploring Andreu, "you have to get serious."74 For Armstrong getting serious
meant, among other things, following a doping plan prescribed by Michele Ferrari." This is a leading statement with no statement of fact.

*Summarized Ferrari Section pages 23-27*
Most of the section regarding Ferrari is pretty leading, contains nothing more than opinion, a story from what would appear to be a documentary, and guilty by association. None of which are admissible in a court of law.

I say AGAIN, this is nothing more than testimonies of butthurt ex-teammates, most of whom were caught and opted for a reduced sentence by selling down Lance, and losers. If you are going to try to ruin the man, at least give him the decency of a fair trial and a jury of his peers.

Ohh and the thegoodthebadthedumb I know what hearsay is, numbnuts. I am aware that the sworn testimonies are not hearsay and I am not saying that any of the evidence IN the article is hearsay either...

I will leave you all with this...directly from the farking USADA decision.

"As a result, none of the evidence assembled by USADA has come from federal law enforcement."
 
2012-10-22 04:58:18 PM

MakerGrey: Dope or not, those were some of the best Tours to watch. That guy was always attacking, taking risks. Put that with Ulrich, Hamilton, Rasmussen, Kloden, the whole T-Mobile and USPS teams. Back when Levi was awesome, Vino and Robbie McEwen. I call it an even playing field. Everyone was juiced. I don't think this is a black cloud in any way. Armstrong brought excitement to the sport, hence attention and viewership in the untapped American market.

/not a LA fanboy
//just really like cycling


It's easy to do when you're using the equivalent of a Game-Shark.
 
2012-10-22 04:59:47 PM
"They were all doping" is a pretty weak excuse. Lance only raced the TdF, skipped out on the other grand tours, and doped to the gills. It was all against the rules. There were clean riders on those tours, however they were on losing teams, or were riders who dropped out b/c they couldn't keep up with a doped peleton after a fall the day before, and probably never got close to the podium. It's not a level playing field, and it would really suck to have been a clean rider in that era.
 
2012-10-22 05:02:07 PM

DeathCipris: "As a result, none of the evidence assembled by USADA has come from federal law enforcement."


Thanks Lance. You're done for the day. Besides, being as you are completely unaffected by all this, shouldn't you be at home chilling with the fam?
 
2012-10-22 05:05:39 PM

MakerGrey: Dope or not, those were some of the best Tours to watch. That guy was always attacking, taking risks. Put that with Ulrich, Hamilton, Rasmussen, Kloden, the whole T-Mobile and USPS teams. Back when Levi was awesome, Vino and Robbie McEwen. I call it an even playing field. Everyone was juiced. I don't think this is a black cloud in any way. Armstrong brought excitement to the sport, hence attention and viewership in the untapped American market.

/not a LA fanboy
//just really like cycling


Lemond's wins were just as good. Massive winning attacks in the mountains, battling his own teammate, beating Fignon by seconds on the very last day of the tour. They even managed to overcome the sappy soundtrack music and commentary by John Tesh that we had to endure on american TV. The fact that Phil Liggett still knew his arse from his elbow back then really helped.
 
2012-10-22 05:06:31 PM
Since a select few are clearly having a shiat-fit that I don't believe the flimsy "evidence." I would like to note that I don't know if he is doping or not, nor do I care, but I am getting my point across that I sure as hell don't believe what the USADA is passing off as "evidence" and that the man deserves a fair trial with court-admissible evidence.
 
2012-10-22 05:08:06 PM
DeathCipris "As a result, none of the evidence assembled by USADA has come from federal law enforcement."

You are absolutely right, federal law enforcement has nothing to do with this; because the truth is, Mr. Armstrong is not charged with any crime, just breaking the rules of the game to which he had agreed to play by. If he found he could not win while "everyone else" was doping, maybe he should have taken the higher road by exposing the cheaters and cleaning up his sport, instead he chose to take cheating to a whole other level.
 
2012-10-22 05:10:00 PM
I hope he gets cancer and dies.

/tickets please!
 
2012-10-22 05:12:44 PM
DeathCipris:

"I was generally aware that Lance was using testosterone throughout the time we were teammates. For instance at a race in Spain in 2000 Lance indicated to me he had taken testosterone... When I heard that drug testing officials were at the hotel, I texted Lance to warn him to avoid the place. As a result, he dropped out of the race." ... Affidavit of George Hincapie, a former Armstrong teammate and one of his closest friends in cycling.

"At the (1998) World Championships Lance and Christian (Vande Velde) and Dr. (Pedro) Celaya and I stayed at a bed and breakfast. The individual bedrooms opened into a single common area. One morning a UCI drug tester showed up to test us and began to set up in the common area. At that point, Dr. Celaya went out to the car and retrieved a liter of saline. He hid the saline under his raincoat, walked right past the UCI tester and went into Armstrong's room, closed the door and administered the saline to lower Lance's hematocrit level." ... Affidavit of Jonathan Vaughters, a former Armstrong teammate.

"Although I had some good results with Dr. (Michele) Ferrari's program, as of 2002 I had been off the doping program more than I had been on it ... Armstrong told me that if I wanted to continue to ride for the (U.S.) Postal Service team I would have to use what Dr. Ferrari has been telling me to use and would have to follow Dr. Ferrari's program to the letter. The conversation left me with no question that I was in the doghouse and that the only way forward with Armstrong's team was to get fully on Dr. Ferrari's doping program." ... Christian Vande Velde, a former teammate, discussing a 2002 meeting with Armstrong and Ferrari, the alleged mastermind of the doping regimen for Armstrong and select teammates.

"Shortly before the 2005 Tour de France I was in need of EPO and I asked Lance Armstrong if he could provide some EPO for me. Lance said that he could, and he gave me two vials of EPO while we were both in Nice, France. Lance had previously provided EPO to me on another occasion following a training camp in Santa Barbara." ... Affidavit of Hincapie.

"I returned to Girona and attempted to increase my hematocrit by using more EPO ... Johan (Bruyneel) suggested that I keep my reported whereabouts at my Girona home but that I not tell USADA and go to stay at the Hotel Fontanals Golf in Puigcerdà, Spain, where he said that Lance Armstrong had gone in the past to avoid drug testing." ... Affidavit of Tom Danielson, a former Armstrong teammate, discussing the required daily "whereabouts" logs required by USADA for its drug testers and how he avoided it in 2006

"Reticulocytes are immature red blood cells created naturally by the body. When an athlete adds additional red blood cells to his circulation by transfusing his own stored blood, the body's production of reticulocytes is suppressed ... When Prof. (Christopher) Gore compared the suppressed reticulocyte percentage in Armstrong's 2009 and 2010 Tour de France samples to the reticulocyte percentage in his other samples, Prof. Gore concluded that the approximate likelihood of Armstrong's seven suppressed reticulocyte values during the 2009 and 2010 Tours de France occurring naturally was less than one in a million." ... Page 140 of USADA "Reasoned Decision" report

I could go on...and on...and on...and on...
 
2012-10-22 05:14:22 PM

DeathCipris: Since a select few are clearly having a shiat-fit that I don't believe the flimsy "evidence." I would like to note that I don't know if he is doping or not, nor do I care, but I am getting my point across that I sure as hell don't believe what the USADA is passing off as "evidence" and that the man deserves a fair trial with court-admissible evidence.


Armstrong himself decided to forego any opportunity to formally clear his name. That's his fault, not USADAs.
 
2012-10-22 05:16:13 PM

damat01: DeathCipris "As a result, none of the evidence assembled by USADA has come from federal law enforcement."

You are absolutely right, federal law enforcement has nothing to do with this; because the truth is, Mr. Armstrong is not charged with any crime, just breaking the rules of the game to which he had agreed to play by. If he found he could not win while "everyone else" was doping, maybe he should have taken the higher road by exposing the cheaters and cleaning up his sport, instead he chose to take cheating to a whole other level.


Again....evidence...not people with conflicting and unverifiable stories. These people just transcribed the stories and signed off on it saying "Yup, that happened. Promise!" Even the Texas Federal Judge said, when throwing out both LA's and USADA's cases, that the whole situation smacked of a want for media attention and publicity rather than the upholding of the rules. (paraphrasing there)
Point me to some REAL evidence, something tangible or verifiable, not just someone, with a possible unseen motive, that he was doping.
 
2012-10-22 05:21:09 PM

thegoodthebadthedumb: DeathCipris: Since a select few are clearly having a shiat-fit that I don't believe the flimsy "evidence." I would like to note that I don't know if he is doping or not, nor do I care, but I am getting my point across that I sure as hell don't believe what the USADA is passing off as "evidence" and that the man deserves a fair trial with court-admissible evidence.

Armstrong himself decided to forego any opportunity to formally clear his name. That's his fault, not USADAs.


USADA, in their decision paper, liked to lead on that it was an admission of guilt as he wouldn't have to testify under oath. I can understand where he is coming from dealing with all of it, but it is interesting he didn't put up more of a fight.
 
2012-10-22 05:25:42 PM

DeathCipris:
Point me to some REAL evidence, something tangible or verifiable, not just someone, with a possible unseen motive, that he was doping.


Direct witness testimony is real evidence, I can assure you. You can get convicted for murder at get the death penalty with the witness testimony of one or two people. 26 people? shiat...you'd hang in a second.

But it doesn't really matter, though. Regardless of the evidence, I bet that your brain will simply not allow you to reach the conclusion that Armstrong is a cheater. And if by some miracle it does, you'll rationalize his behavior another way and continue to give him a pass.

But here it goes anyway - a scientist and doping expert explains Armstrong's 1999 TdF samples which tested positive for EPO in 2005: http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden

And here's another doctor and doping expert talking about how Armstrong's 2009 samples showed signs of blood maniuplation: http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/10/news/gore-armstrongs-blood-show ed-clear-signs-of-manipulation-in-2009_256658
 
2012-10-22 05:26:46 PM
thegoodthebadthedumb

Aside from the blood count, which this on the same page explaining the excerpt:

"In evaluating the sample data, Dr. Gore rejected four of the test results, either because the
transport time to the laboratory was too long (3), or collection occurred too soon after
competition (1) in violation of WADA's Athlete Biological Passport Guidelines. These rejected
samples included one of the six samples collected during the 2009 Tour de France."

...everything else is just "stories."
 
2012-10-22 05:27:25 PM

DeathCipris: damat01: DeathCipris "As a result, none of the evidence assembled by USADA has come from federal law enforcement."

You are absolutely right, federal law enforcement has nothing to do with this; because the truth is, Mr. Armstrong is not charged with any crime, just breaking the rules of the game to which he had agreed to play by. If he found he could not win while "everyone else" was doping, maybe he should have taken the higher road by exposing the cheaters and cleaning up his sport, instead he chose to take cheating to a whole other level.

Again....evidence...not people with conflicting and unverifiable stories. These people just transcribed the stories and signed off on it saying "Yup, that happened. Promise!" Even the Texas Federal Judge said, when throwing out both LA's and USADA's cases, that the whole situation smacked of a want for media attention and publicity rather than the upholding of the rules. (paraphrasing there)
Point me to some REAL evidence, something tangible or verifiable, not just someone, with a possible unseen motive, that he was doping.


How about you produce one shred of evidence regarding Hincapie's or Leipheimer's "unseen motive" for their testimony? Levi was just fired from his team, both their reputations are destoryed. Why would they do that?
 
2012-10-22 05:32:19 PM

DeathCipris: Since a select few are clearly having a shiat-fit that I don't believe the flimsy "evidence." I would like to note that I don't know if he is doping or not, nor do I care, but I am getting my point across that I sure as hell don't believe what the USADA is passing off as "evidence" and that the man deserves a fair trial with court-admissible evidence.


Trial? For what? Cycling dopers don't get trials very often you know. Court admissible evidence? Well, he could have challenged these results at an arbitration hearing but he passed on the opportunity.

Also, you watch waaaaaaaay too much bullshiat police tv if you think eyewitness testimony is not court admissible evidence. And, now that I think of it, the very foundation of Law and Order is witness testimony. Tune is and you can watch about a zillion hours of people being sentenced to real actual jails based on witness testimony.

So, your point, if you had one, is that you will accept failed drug tests and failed drug tests only. Ok, cool. Sit back and enjoy - Armstrong is gonna get his day in court. He's gonna get lots and lots of days actually. Because he's about to get the ever loving shiat sued out of him by SCA, Rupert Murdoch, and at least half a dozen other farkers. You can sit there and say 'that's not real evidence!' very loudly as his carcass is picked clean.
 
2012-10-22 05:33:11 PM

thegoodthebadthedumb: DeathCipris:
Point me to some REAL evidence, something tangible or verifiable, not just someone, with a possible unseen motive, that he was doping.

Direct witness testimony is real evidence, I can assure you. You can get convicted for murder at get the death penalty with the witness testimony of one or two people. 26 people? shiat...you'd hang in a second.

But it doesn't really matter, though. Regardless of the evidence, I bet that your brain will simply not allow you to reach the conclusion that Armstrong is a cheater. And if by some miracle it does, you'll rationalize his behavior another way and continue to give him a pass.

But here it goes anyway - a scientist and doping expert explains Armstrong's 1999 TdF samples which tested positive for EPO in 2005: http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden

And here's another doctor and doping expert talking about how Armstrong's 2009 samples showed signs of blood maniuplation: http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/10/news/gore-armstrongs-blood-show ed-clear-signs-of-manipulation-in-2009_256658


Well as another poster stated, it would be interesting to see the connection between doping and his testicular cancer. I am not above reason, good sir or madam, but I still find it hard to take 26 separate accounts with stories that don't really match. I will have to look into more later, but right now, I don't see the connection. I will read through that first article you sent.
 
2012-10-22 05:36:16 PM
I knew this was coming , i had hoped they would stand up to the USADA and demand physical evidence to back up the circumstantial but they did not. I remain neutral on the whole matter.
 
2012-10-22 05:37:48 PM

JohnBigBootay: DeathCipris: Since a select few are clearly having a shiat-fit that I don't believe the flimsy "evidence." I would like to note that I don't know if he is doping or not, nor do I care, but I am getting my point across that I sure as hell don't believe what the USADA is passing off as "evidence" and that the man deserves a fair trial with court-admissible evidence.

Trial? For what? Cycling dopers don't get trials very often you know. Court admissible evidence? Well, he could have challenged these results at an arbitration hearing but he passed on the opportunity.

Also, you watch waaaaaaaay too much bullshiat police tv if you think eyewitness testimony is not court admissible evidence. And, now that I think of it, the very foundation of Law and Order is witness testimony. Tune is and you can watch about a zillion hours of people being sentenced to real actual jails based on witness testimony.

So, your point, if you had one, is that you will accept failed drug tests and failed drug tests only. Ok, cool. Sit back and enjoy - Armstrong is gonna get his day in court. He's gonna get lots and lots of days actually. Because he's about to get the ever loving shiat sued out of him by SCA, Rupert Murdoch, and at least half a dozen other farkers. You can sit there and say 'that's not real evidence!' very loudly as his carcass is picked clean.


Wow....dick.
Really don't care what you think.
I am open minded, but it still seems flimsy to me. I have some reading that thegoodthebadthedumb directed me to that I will be following up on to check it out.
 
2012-10-22 05:58:43 PM
So, are any of the individuals who are sifting through reams of report data, following up to ask what is going to be done to make sure that cycling is cleaner in the future?
 
2012-10-22 06:01:56 PM

DeathCipris: Wow....dick.
Really don't care what you think.


Aw, is the guy who called other posters numbnuts or morons for not seeing it his way a little upset this afternoon? That's ok - I am completely unaffected and just chilling with my fam and focusing on what's really important.
 
2012-10-22 06:25:06 PM

lohphat: notatrollorami:
Overall his presence on earth has been positive because of the amount of cancer research his cause has funded. But make no mistake if you knew him personally you would consider him a huge dick.

Where are the details of how much has been given for research. IIRC the money raised was fore "awareness" and not research.


That's a valid point. I've never considered contributing so I've never checked into that charity. It may very well be a big scam like Komen (where only a tiny portion of the money goes to anything actually useful) but I don't know.
 
2012-10-22 06:29:36 PM

notatrollorami: lohphat: notatrollorami:
Overall his presence on earth has been positive because of the amount of cancer research his cause has funded. But make no mistake if you knew him personally you would consider him a huge dick.

Where are the details of how much has been given for research. IIRC the money raised was fore "awareness" and not research.

That's a valid point. I've never considered contributing so I've never checked into that charity. It may very well be a big scam like Komen (where only a tiny portion of the money goes to anything actually useful) but I don't know.


Armstrong is a huge cheating Dick. And no, livestrong does not do very much at all for cancer research. And Armstrong certainly receives a hefty paycheck from his livestrong efforts and questions have been raised about the muddy waters between the for profit stuff vs the non profit - but livestrong itself receives high marks from charity navigator and does good work. No sense throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
 
2012-10-22 06:29:41 PM
Saying Lance Armstrong doped is like saying there is no god. Proof it. Oh you can't all you have is testimony years after the fact and a bunch of high priests ready to persecute the atheists who don't believe.
 
2012-10-22 06:49:00 PM

Alone in the Snark: Therefore, nobody remembers him.


I do (and dug this out just for you). Also remember he almost died after being accidentally shot while out hunting and came back from that, a story almost as good as Lance's cancer. I also remember the duel with Laurent Fignon. But, then again, didn't Fignon later admit to using amphetamines? It's hard to say how far back it goes. It's just different drugs for different times and everyone was trying to get an edge.

i1237.photobucket.com
 
2012-10-22 06:54:40 PM

lucksi: So what? It's not like they take away his money he made from doing drugs, now is it?


He nerds to cough up 7ml
That is just the start
 
2012-10-22 07:02:32 PM
Somebody make another one nut joke. We can get this baby over 500!
 
2012-10-22 07:03:15 PM

BiblioTech: I do (and dug this out just for you).


Very cool. You know, of all the people wronged by LA, Lemond is at the top of the list. The dude did not get the life he had coming to him after what he accomplished. Because, mostly, of Lance Armstrong being a vindictive raging dick. You gotta have huge ball to serially sue person after person for doing nothing more than telling the truth.
 
2012-10-22 07:07:00 PM

expobill: lucksi: So what? It's not like they take away his money he made from doing drugs, now is it?

He nerds to cough up 7ml
That is just the start


That's just from the bonus and settlement from the bonus. then they have already requested back the tour prize money. And rupert murdoch is suing to recover his libel judgement with legal fees. Then the LA Confidentiel guys will come calling. It's gonna be a long list. Could not happen to a nicer guy.
 
2012-10-22 07:21:50 PM
JohnBigBootay:

Glad you liked the pic. Sorry it flipped when I posted. Think that is circa 1981/1982?? Had some pics of Eric Heiden as well so that's about the right time frame.
 
2012-10-22 07:23:17 PM
Bigjohn
Cheers, I have enjoyed your posts these weeks!
http://imageshack.us/a/img685/9845/im agexlw.jpg

Sorry on an itouch at a brewpub!
 
rka
2012-10-22 07:23:27 PM

JohnBigBootay: expobill: lucksi: So what? It's not like they take away his money he made from doing drugs, now is it?

He nerds to cough up 7ml
That is just the start

That's just from the bonus and settlement from the bonus. then they have already requested back the tour prize money. And rupert murdoch is suing to recover his libel judgement with legal fees. Then the LA Confidentiel guys will come calling. It's gonna be a long list. Could not happen to a nicer guy.


That's an interesting twist, or could be at least.

One assumes that everyone Lance sued and won judgements against lost because they couldn't come up with enough evidence in a court of law to fight a libel rap.

None of USADA's evidence has actually been vetted in a court of law either. There are rules for admissibility and chain of evidence and whatnot in a real court that a lot of their stuff didn't need. They could basically throw everything out there and hit him with "preponderance of evidence".

Should be interesting to see if any of this stuff can stand up.
 
2012-10-22 07:24:53 PM
Applying the appropriate filter to this thread, I see about 36 posts......

Bootay

I completely agree, he f*cked LeMond over so big time. Sad, LeMond's story is pretty amazing.
 
2012-10-22 07:25:28 PM
FTFA: "Lance Armstrong has no place in cycling and he deserves to be forgotten in cycling," said Pat McQuaid, the president said of the International Cycling Union. "This is a landmark day for cycling."

"Cycling," he continued. "It's all about cycling. Which Lance Armstrong is no longer a part of. Cycling, that is."
 
2012-10-22 07:27:11 PM

smadge1: I hope he gets cancer and dies.

/tickets please!


They said 110% of his vital organs were effected so he void be a cjborgs......but we were informed to forget him!
 
2012-10-22 07:31:55 PM
http://imageshack.us/a/img685/9845/imagexlw.jpg
 
2012-10-22 07:40:54 PM

Snort: When is the hanging scheduled?

Does everyone have their pitchforks and torches?


Next week, he's has child porn on his computer.
Tuesday after that, he beats his dog, and cheats on taxes.
And then on Friday next,,,

W/o enhancement chemistry, there is no sport as done today. No PROFIT for the owners now making a dog and pony show of cleaning up their toilet. "For the integrity of the sport".

/never go hypocritical
 
2012-10-22 07:50:13 PM
Does anyone honestly give a rat's ass about douches wearing douchey clothes riding a douchey bicycle? Cycling is something anyone can do. It isn't like it takes skill to peddle a bicycle. With that being said they're banning the only person to ever bring attention to that piece of trash 'sport' because he doped blood. I can understand the fact people may care more about the fact he adamantly denies it instead of the fact he did it. I get it. Thing is, what if he really didn't do it? What if it's some huge conspir... hahahha, nah, nobody gives a rat's ass about it enough for that. I'm with Lewis Black on this one: Why aren't we all blood doping if it gives you Superman's metabolism and body mechanics?
 
2012-10-22 07:52:09 PM

expobill: Cheers


Back at ya'

New Age Redneck: I completely agree, he f*cked LeMond over so big time. Sad, LeMond's story is pretty amazing.


Yeah. Bit of a pet peeve of mine and one of the reasons I followed this story so closely.

rka: One assumes that everyone Lance sued and won judgements against lost because they couldn't come up with enough evidence in a court of law to fight a libel rap.


That's the thing about it and exactly how the wealthy abuse the legal system. there was a big story today about all these libel cases and how virtually none of them went to court. Like the LA confidentiel guys. Armstrong sued the writers, the publisher, and half the witnesses. Then months and months go by... and Armstrong quietly drops the suit. Meanwhile, the US publisher, fearing legal action, drops plans to publish the book. Armstrong never has to enter a courtroom and the writers lose the book's biggest market. Armstrong repeated this same strategy over and over in europe.
 
2012-10-22 08:11:38 PM
Late to the party, but as a former fan, FARK him. Not only was he a cheat, but he was a bully to the nth degree. That's what I'm more pissed about. He went out of his way to be a dick to people who dared question him. FARK him. It's about time the UCI got their shiat together. But they're corrupt as well....
 
2012-10-22 08:17:15 PM

New Age Redneck: Applying the appropriate filter to this thread, I see about 36 posts......

Bootay

I completely agree, he f*cked LeMond over so big time. Sad, LeMond's story is pretty amazing.


I would love to see a movie treatment or documentary of the 89 Tour. Unfortunately, Fignon is no longer with us.
 
2012-10-22 09:23:45 PM
I'd give my left nut to have this whole scandal not have happened.
 
2012-10-22 10:02:42 PM

kriegfusion: debo1683: kriegfusion: Obama4Life: Nobody could win 7 consecutive Titles without a little outside help.


Unless of course the event is exactly the same or very close to the same thing over and over again.

/thinks there's too many olympic swimming events.
//Doesn't consider Phelps having more than 2 or 3 gold medals at most.

I am curious as to why you think there are too many olympic swimming events ... other than having to watch all of them on NBC during their 'wonderful' olympic coverage. I will tell you that, for example, the 100 back stroke and 200 backstroke may appear very similar to some one watching the races. But how they are swum, strategy, stroke technique, use of the walls and starts are all very different in those two races ...


I don't wish to diminish the talent of swimming the backstroke, but I can't imagine (speaking as someone not familiar with the sport, only looking at logic) the difference to be all that different. I concede that there may be differences in exactly how much energy each lap is put forth, what kind of strategy could pertain to a swimming event besides 'be faster than the other guys' or 'act like you're slower then explode in the end to surprise', and the use of walls other than to leap from can really be different. As someone once here said, a whole team of basketball players can do many more tactics, strategy and plays than a swimmer, outwit, outmaneuver, and use the court and ball in a hundred different ways, and after *many* games, at the very end, they end up with....one.....gold medal. Just one.
I simply feel when you compare events like cycling, team sports and other more sophisticated events (sophisticated in a sense that means it has more parts then say, swimming, shot put, pole vault etc), I see no reason why swimming should hold more than 2 or 3 medals at best.
I have no doubt there are small nuances in swimming events, but one would have to argue how that is somehow vastly different than nuances in other events. Tha ...


Fair enough ... I used to swim and coach swimming now. We have different opinions. I am sure its the same as me saying to a badminton player that there should be no gold medal for that. Cheers!
 
2012-10-23 01:58:30 AM
You're all racists.
 
2012-10-23 05:47:29 AM
He cheated. Got that. I think most reasonable people would agree.

But to deny history is ignorant. It happened and he finished the race first. At this point, so many years later, it's almost irrelevant how he did it. Not only that, but the same corporate mountains that are vilifying him today are the ones that financed his operation and made zillions to his millions on him. He transformed a niche' sport, a euro-fad event into one of the greatest summertime viewing through the month of July.

Lance is the real deal. He's an icon. Cheater or not. You can't deny that.
 
2012-10-23 08:25:03 AM

DeathCipris: thegoodthebadthedumb

Aside from the blood count, which this on the same page explaining the excerpt:

"In evaluating the sample data, Dr. Gore rejected four of the test results, either because the
transport time to the laboratory was too long (3), or collection occurred too soon after
competition (1) in violation of WADA's Athlete Biological Passport Guidelines. These rejected
samples included one of the six samples collected during the 2009 Tour de France."

...everything else is just "stories."


Wow, are you retarded or just in love with Lance?

TWENTY SIX eye witnesses (not hearsay, actual witnesses) testified against him. People have been convicted for murder with just one eye witness. So eye witnesses are ok for murder cases, but not doping cases in cycling? Please.
 
2012-10-23 08:45:44 AM

DeathCipris: thegoodthebadthedumb: DeathCipris: Since a select few are clearly having a shiat-fit that I don't believe the flimsy "evidence." I would like to note that I don't know if he is doping or not, nor do I care, but I am getting my point across that I sure as hell don't believe what the USADA is passing off as "evidence" and that the man deserves a fair trial with court-admissible evidence.

Armstrong himself decided to forego any opportunity to formally clear his name. That's his fault, not USADAs.

USADA, in their decision paper, liked to lead on that it was an admission of guilt as he wouldn't have to testify under oath. I can understand where he is coming from dealing with all of it, but it is interesting he didn't put up more of a fight.


I think he weighed the options of having 26 or so people testify about their direct experience with Lance doping and/or bullying them about doping, on camera for the world to see, including tearful scenes of Emma O'Reilly and Betsy Andreu saying how he ruined their lives, or the publication of a lengthy report about what would have been said in the arbitration hearings, and figured that the arbitration hearings would be a huge PR disaster.
 
2012-10-23 12:11:58 PM
expobill:

Hey expobill, I'd be interested in your opinion of this: Former Champion Indurain Believes in Armstrong's Innocence
 
2012-10-23 12:42:43 PM
rikkitikkitavi Smartest
Funniest
2012-10-23 05:47:29 AM


He cheated. Got that. I think most reasonable people would agree.

But to deny history is ignorant. It happened and he finished the race first. At this point, so many years later, it's almost irrelevant how he did it. Not only that, but the same corporate mountains that are vilifying him today are the ones that financed his operation and made zillions to his millions on him. He transformed a niche' sport, a euro-fad event into one of the greatest summertime viewing through the month of July.

Lance is the real deal. He's an icon. Cheater or not. You can't deny that.




Ben Johnson agrees.
 
2012-10-23 07:03:40 PM

gwowen: expobill:

Hey expobill, I'd be interested in your opinion of this: Former Champion Indurain Believes in Armstrong's Innocence


I read that the day Miguel stated that, Miguel is just a classy guy who everyone loves.
The article was in back of my mind every time i posted here.
 
2012-10-23 09:28:19 PM

intelligent comment below: ParagonComplex: Cycling is something anyone can do. It isn't like it takes skill to peddle a bicycle.


Bouncing a ball and shooting it in a hoop is easy, anyone can do it

catching a ball and running to an end zone is easy, anyone can do it

I expect you to ride the Tour de France next year


Actually bouncing a ball and shooting it into a hoop as well as catching a ball and running to an end zone actually need hand-eye coordination, ability to judge distance, etc. Not everyone posesses those skills. Everyone has the ability to pedal a bicycle.
 
2012-10-23 09:58:41 PM

ParagonComplex: Everyone has the ability to pedal a bicycle.


up Luz Ardiden...ok?
 
2012-10-23 11:00:07 PM

machoprogrammer: In before the Lance apologists


too late
 
2012-10-24 03:22:44 AM
This whole affair reeks of dirty politics and sour grapes. And I don't mean the overpriced overrated crap they called wine.
 
2012-10-24 11:28:14 AM

expobill: ParagonComplex: Everyone has the ability to pedal a bicycle.

up Luz Ardiden...ok?


More importantly, down one of the big Cols at 60 MPH on skinny tires and hot oil slicked roads. Giving credit where credit is due, that save that Armstrong made when Beloki crashed in front of him was amazing.
 
2012-10-24 12:01:19 PM

steve_wmn: expobill: ParagonComplex: Everyone has the ability to pedal a bicycle.

up Luz Ardiden...ok?

More importantly, down one of the big Cols at 60 MPH on skinny tires and hot oil slicked roads. Giving credit where credit is due, that save that Armstrong made when Beloki crashed in front of him was amazing.


I remember that Beloki's wheel got caught in a tar stripe they use for patching holes.
there was controversy wether "the ignored one" should have waited, but Beloki would not have won anyways.
 
2012-10-24 01:09:03 PM
And the rewrite of history proceeds,,,

Lance Armstrong is what he is, did what he did and the rest of the entire world can just hurt their butts all they like.

Comm'on back for another thrashin' some time, ya hear?
We'll even let you set the rules.
 
2012-10-25 01:02:11 PM

snocone: ance Armstrong is what he is, did what he did and the rest of the entire world can just hurt their butts all they like.


You sound Republican. The party of lying and cheating[tm].
 
2012-10-25 01:51:20 PM

lohphat: You sound Republican. The party of lying and cheating[tm].


Aww, poor thing does not like the cynicism of reality.
 
2012-10-25 04:21:02 PM

Snort: lohphat: You sound Republican. The party of lying and cheating[tm].

Aww, poor thing does not like the cynicism of reality.


Another gem from a bootstrappy family values voter proud of their hypocrisy. Keep on hiding behind that moral superiority.
 
2012-10-25 04:42:40 PM

lohphat: snocone: ance Armstrong is what he is, did what he did and the rest of the entire world can just hurt their butts all they like.

You sound Republican. The party of lying and cheating[tm].


Naww, I do believe, Rules is Rules, quite unlike any partisan retard.
Armstrong competed and kicked ass under The Rules at the time as did ALL THE FARKING RIDERS.
Moving goalposts, rewriting rules 'cause you don't like it is classic Republican, you are right.
This crap, now, is (Warning Will Robinsion, FILTER FILTER)

/follow the attack dogs, and guess who they work for
 
2012-10-25 04:51:11 PM
I guess it was age 5 or six when I figured out that most games/rules had "bend" in them and that beating the game was a LOT easier than beating the competition.

There are simply too many of our fearless leaders that indicate they believe you too stupid to realize how they play/cheat.
Rather than ignor this sociopathic behavior, as most indoctrinated good citizens do, I suggest a nice hanging party each weekend and Monday Night.
 
2012-10-25 05:17:25 PM

snocone: Armstrong competed and kicked ass under The Rules at the time as did ALL THE FARKING RIDERS.


He subverted the rules against using controlled substances and intentionally tried to gain advantage when he knew it was unethical.

If you can't even understand the concept of what cheating is, that's pathetic.
 
2012-10-25 09:55:55 PM

lohphat: snocone: Armstrong competed and kicked ass under The Rules at the time as did ALL THE FARKING RIDERS.

He subverted the rules against using controlled substances and intentionally tried to gain advantage when he knew it was unethical.

If you can't even understand the concept of what cheating is, that's pathetic.


Every rider in that event doped as much/often as they could just to be competitive.
Your precious subverted ethical sham was old and broken long before.

Just save it. I have been treating pro athletes since 1972. Inside and out.
Never lie to your medic. Just never.
 
2012-10-25 11:24:13 PM

snocone: lohphat: snocone: Armstrong competed and kicked ass under The Rules at the time as did ALL THE FARKING RIDERS.

He subverted the rules against using controlled substances and intentionally tried to gain advantage when he knew it was unethical.

If you can't even understand the concept of what cheating is, that's pathetic.

Every rider in that event doped as much/often as they could just to be competitive.
Your precious subverted ethical sham was old and broken long before.


[citation needed]

Just save it. I have been treating pro athletes since 1972. Inside and out.
Never lie to your medic. Just never.


Don't let me get in the way of you getting back to the gym.
 
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