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(Some Guy)   Kickstarter contributors learning that throwing money at someone doesn't guarantee on time delivery or that a product will even be released. VC dudes: welcome to the real world, kids   (crowdsourcing.org) divider line 53
    More: Obvious, guarantees  
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4298 clicks; posted to Business » on 21 Oct 2012 at 4:08 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-21 01:49:01 PM  
I sent in $50 because the Obvious tag said it'd put me in the credits and....oh, here it is.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2012-10-21 01:51:30 PM  
VC dudes: welcome to the real world, kids

VC dudes: Welcome to our world, except if we win we get millions and if you win you get a T-shirt, a game, or an album with a fair market value of less than $100.
 
2012-10-21 03:57:18 PM  
"VC dudes: welcome to the real world"

i199.photobucket.com 

/preferred nomenclature 
 
2012-10-21 04:10:05 PM  
They did have 2 of their programmers jump ship. It's not like the money boys just said fark you all, we're gonna leave you high and dry while we go chase the next hot thing. Altho as capitalists that is their rightful prerogative.
 
2012-10-21 04:14:18 PM  

ZAZ: VC dudes: welcome to the real world, kids

VC dudes: Welcome to our world, except if we win we get millions and if you win you get a T-shirt, a game, or an album with a fair market value of less than $100.



of course VCs toss i hundreds of thousands to millions and expect to lose money 70% of the time break even 20% make a small gain 9%, and hope that the 1% hits it big is enough to offset the losses and make a nice profit in the mix,

you toss in 50 and hope they get your tshirt size right
 
2012-10-21 04:18:41 PM  
I have yet to encounter someone who has funded a Kickstarter or similar campaign that had the idea it was a guaranteed bet. The overall impression that I have received from others, and the feeling that I have when I "invest", is that I am putting money I can afford to lose into something that I think would be worthwhile to support. If it makes it, fantastic, I get something cool and I get to have been a part of making that happen. If not, well, that sucks, but not every project is going to be a winner. You try to find the ones that you think are worthwhile and have a reasonable chance of success.

Of the five I've backed, I've received one so far. The other four are on track, so we'll see.
 
2012-10-21 04:27:41 PM  

timujin: I have yet to encounter someone who has funded a Kickstarter or similar campaign that had the idea it was a guaranteed bet. The overall impression that I have received from others, and the feeling that I have when I "invest", is that I am putting money I can afford to lose into something that I think would be worthwhile to support. If it makes it, fantastic, I get something cool and I get to have been a part of making that happen. If not, well, that sucks, but not every project is going to be a winner. You try to find the ones that you think are worthwhile and have a reasonable chance of success.

Of the five I've backed, I've received one so far. The other four are on track, so we'll see.


Of the seven I've back - 6 have delivered. The remaining one went off course but a third party has stepped in and put it back on course. So overall - things have worked out well.
 
2012-10-21 04:51:13 PM  
The problem with KS is obvious: People see legit ventures getting oodles of funding and think they can get the same for their idea for a game about training a virtual dog to bark commands at a 3D yeti in a mecha jump suit that fights llama bombers while solving sudoku puzzles rendered in 8-bit graphics that morph into craft ideas for your wedding planner.
 
2012-10-21 04:59:13 PM  
Thats what happens when hipsters program your game, as soon as someone else hears about it and it becomes mainstream, they have to move on to something else that isn't cool yet.
 
2012-10-21 05:02:01 PM  

tillerman35: The problem with KS is obvious: People see legit ventures getting oodles of funding and think they can get the same for their idea for a game about training a virtual dog to bark commands at a 3D yeti in a mecha jump suit that fights llama bombers while solving sudoku puzzles rendered in 8-bit graphics that morph into craft ideas for your wedding planner.


soshable.com
 
2012-10-21 05:14:02 PM  
Does this mean Joe isn't getting his Trans Am?
 
2012-10-21 05:20:33 PM  
KS is liable to destroy the VC system meaning that sole ownership of something big is going to remain with it's creators and instead of going IPO they'll just enjoy the massive profits.

Facebook would not have gone public if not for the VC demanding they make an IPO. It could have gone on making hundreds of millions each year but now it might implode as everyone mistakes it's stock performance as it's popularity. (Hint, it's a $4 stock for as many shares as they issued.)
 
2012-10-21 05:21:38 PM  
FTA: Haunts had raised $28,700 this summer (surpassing the initial $25,000 goal)...

Oh, you thought you were going to develop a game for $25k? That's cute.

What I don't get is why people donate to projects that are obviously asking for too little money. It costs money to make things, you're not getting something for nothing. More than likely, what you're getting is actually nothing.
 
2012-10-21 05:24:47 PM  

timujin: I have yet to encounter someone who has funded a Kickstarter or similar campaign that had the idea it was a guaranteed bet.


Reaper. Hands down, Reaper. I've bought plenty of stuff from them before, they have the experience, facilities, they just needed a little bit extra to bring a large range to market quickly. Adding to the pledge didn't take much.

I also funded the new Tea Party (as in Jeff Martin) album, safe in the knowledge that I'd get it.

Did a couple of others, knowing that the person/people have the ability to make good... A couple where they have the ability, but it could possibly fall over... and a couple that are gambles.
 
2012-10-21 05:44:25 PM  
Well, not every project will succeed, however Kickstarter has helped a lot of projects:-
s3.amazonaws.com

6.mshcdn.com

pikigeek.com
 
2012-10-21 06:19:20 PM  
There have been a lot of kickstarter successes so I'm not keen on writing off the entire idea of crowd-sourcing and especially crowd-funding. What people need to realize (and evidence suggests we have realized to some degree) is that deliverables and reputations are tantamount to a solid end product. You can gamble on John Videogames if you so desire. On the other hand, Chris Roberts shiats gold and is routinely ignored, yet through the medium of crowd-sourcing he can achieve something publishers considered bankrupt. Let's don't count this avenue out just yet.
 
2012-10-21 06:35:48 PM  

Ogre840: tillerman35: The problem with KS is obvious: People see legit ventures getting oodles of funding and think they can get the same for their idea for a game about training a virtual dog to bark commands at a 3D yeti in a mecha jump suit that fights llama bombers while solving sudoku puzzles rendered in 8-bit graphics that morph into craft ideas for your wedding planner.

[soshable.com image 500x313]


encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
 
2012-10-21 07:00:16 PM  
Hmmmm- is Yogventures still coming out on time?
 
2012-10-21 07:03:01 PM  

MrEricSir: FTA: Haunts had raised $28,700 this summer (surpassing the initial $25,000 goal)...

Oh, you thought you were going to develop a game for $25k? That's cute.

What I don't get is why people donate to projects that are obviously asking for too little money. It costs money to make things, you're not getting something for nothing. More than likely, what you're getting is actually nothing.


The issue was not the money, but that two of the programmers jumped ship.
 
2012-10-21 07:15:53 PM  

timujin: I have yet to encounter someone who has funded a Kickstarter or similar campaign that had the idea it was a guaranteed bet. The overall impression that I have received from others, and the feeling that I have when I "invest", is that I am putting money I can afford to lose into something that I think would be worthwhile to support. If it makes it, fantastic, I get something cool and I get to have been a part of making that happen. If not, well, that sucks, but not every project is going to be a winner. You try to find the ones that you think are worthwhile and have a reasonable chance of success.

Of the five I've backed, I've received one so far. The other four are on track, so we'll see.


This.

I've backed one that I consider a sure bet, but that's because I actually KNOW the guy running it (so that one doesn't really count). The others I've backed I consider to be relatively safe bets, but I've never put in more than I could afford to lose.

For my current stuff...
Shaker (CRPG): Looks like it didn't make the cut... still 14 days to go, but only 1/4 of the way to being funded, and the developers are pulling it. Of course, since it never funded my $15 pledge was never actually charged.
Project Eternity (CRPG):Funded for more than triple the goal. I'm sure everyone here already knows about it, and I think it's likely Shaker would have done better if it hadn't been up against this behemoth. $25 is worth it if they deliver, and nothing to worry about if they fail.
Numenera (P&P RPG): Funded for more than 25 times the goal. I'm pretty sure Monte Cook will deliver, but if it fails I'm out a whole $50... the horror. On the other hand, if it succeeds I get a dozen rulebooks and a character creation app.
 
2012-10-21 07:23:31 PM  

syrynxx: Does this mean Joe isn't getting his Trans Am?


No, that's through IndieGogo. Totally different.
 
2012-10-21 07:45:37 PM  

Sargun: The issue was not the money, but that two of the programmers jumped ship.


If you read the summary on Kickstarter, it's pretty clear that it was about the money -- the main programmer was working on this in his spare time, and gave up when he got a full-time job.
 
2012-10-21 08:03:39 PM  
The Reuters article about the LED bulb is more interesting. I think when you start giving money for projects that involve technology that's revolutionary in some way you have to be wary. It can take years to create something for the end user and millions of dollars. I don't think some people understand that.
 
2012-10-21 08:51:34 PM  
I pledge money that I can afford to lose. Simple as that. So far, I have a pretty good track record (46 pledges - 41 successes, 1 failure to deliver, 4 in progress).

It's fun and pointless, and I get lots of really weird stuff to clutter up my life with. I also tend to avoid the music, art (mostly), dance, and theater sections of Kickstarter. LOTS of hipster crap on there that's not "I have an idea and a model, I just need money" but rather "Help me do something I've been toying around with". I'll pledge money to the former, not the latter.

Gadgets and games are much more fertile ground for improvements and innovation. I've gotten some really sweet things by dropping cash. If you do your homework (or only wait to fund projects that are already funded, as I have on a couple of questionable ones), it's like shopping on Amazon.
 
2012-10-21 09:57:44 PM  
This is my problem with crowd sourcing, and i have seen some real local examples. The basic idea is if it works, the guys running it make off like bandits. If not, fark it sorry about your luck. Everyone likes to say 'yeah be a part of this idea', the thing is you aren't. You are paying in advance for dvd, or poster or whatever. How about we found a mini ipo model. If you really believe in your shiat you sell off equity. fark your tshirt for 25, i want .1% of the profit.
 
2012-10-21 10:01:32 PM  

NickelP: This is my problem with crowd sourcing, and i have seen some real local examples. The basic idea is if it works, the guys running it make off like bandits. If not, fark it sorry about your luck. Everyone likes to say 'yeah be a part of this idea', the thing is you aren't. You are paying in advance for dvd, or poster or whatever. How about we found a mini ipo model. If you really believe in your shiat you sell off equity. fark your tshirt for 25, i want .1% of the profit.


Problem with that is it's much more difficult to setup the legal framework necessary for enforcing that arrangement. Certainly much more difficult than clicking a simple "Donate" button and transfering some paypal funds.
 
2012-10-21 10:17:31 PM  

Lost Thought 00: NickelP: This is my problem with crowd sourcing, and i have seen some real local examples. The basic idea is if it works, the guys running it make off like bandits. If not, fark it sorry about your luck. Everyone likes to say 'yeah be a part of this idea', the thing is you aren't. You are paying in advance for dvd, or poster or whatever. How about we found a mini ipo model. If you really believe in your shiat you sell off equity. fark your tshirt for 25, i want .1% of the profit.

Problem with that is it's much more difficult to setup the legal framework necessary for enforcing that arrangement. Certainly much more difficult than clicking a simple "Donate" button and transfering some paypal funds.


I understand this, and think maybe it is time we ease some of that up for companies under 100k. We have already actually seen the equity raising laws relax somewhat.

That wasn't my point though. All I was saying is don't act like i am the savior of the farking world because i bought a tshirt. I am tired of getting emails from companies about how they need my help to accomplish their noble mission and here is the link to help out. Just farking say we have this kickass idea, if you are willing to prepay it can really help us make it happen and we would appreciate it. I dunno i am in some nonprofits and community groups and i just see way to many for profits using this like they are charities who need assistance.
 
2012-10-21 11:11:11 PM  
Kickstarter is donation, investment in small business. It's not a way to get cheap games or your name in lights.

Spend your money wisely, on solid projects, and be prepared for some of your investments to go belly up, just like the stock market. Don't whine about it like a child. That's life.
 
2012-10-21 11:13:05 PM  

Kelly McGlade: Well, not every project will succeed, however Kickstarter has helped a lot of projects:-
[s3.amazonaws.com image 640x400]

[6.mshcdn.com image 616x425]

[pikigeek.com image 580x326]


As well as Chivalry, Medieval Warfare.

Coming down the line are projects from proven developers, like Wasteland 2, Shadowrun, Volgarr, Grim Dawn, Double Fine Adventure, and Star Citizen.

Don't throw money at Jimmy from Montana and his friends who really really want to make a game and you won't have to worry about your $100 donation (keyword: donation) going up in smoke.
 
2012-10-21 11:33:57 PM  
I'd be leery of any kickstarter software projects that 'employ' programmers, as opposed to being run by programmers. I don't know anything about this particular project, but there's a lot of negative stereotypes about "idea guys" in indie software, and for good reason.
 
2012-10-21 11:50:16 PM  
I've backed a bunch of kickstarter projects, a few indiegogo causes, and several micro-loans. I have yet to be screwed over. No games/software though. Mostly books, art, music, comics, charity, or small businesses trying to expand in some way.

Typically I hand over money to projects that I would otherwise have no problem freely donating money to with no expectations of anything in return. Getting something in return is a nice bonus.
 
2012-10-22 12:04:42 AM  

MrEricSir: Sargun: The issue was not the money, but that two of the programmers jumped ship.

If you read the summary on Kickstarter, it's pretty clear that it was about the money -- the main programmer was working on this in his spare time, and gave up when he got a full-time job.


The guy already had a job, and then went to make this, and then jumped for another job. They had enough money to last a bit while longer, and the game is mostly complete.
 
2012-10-22 01:22:15 AM  

natmar_76: Kickstarter is donation, investment in small business. It's not a way to get cheap games or your name in lights.

Spend your money wisely, on solid projects, and be prepared for some of your investments to go belly up, just like the stock market. Don't whine about it like a child. That's life.


I'd go even further -- it's merely digital panhandling. It's like giving the guy on the corner five bucks to "help clean up his life" and then biatching when you see him the next day, still drunk and soiling himself.
 
2012-10-22 01:29:04 AM  

Sargun: MrEricSir: Sargun: The issue was not the money, but that two of the programmers jumped ship.

If you read the summary on Kickstarter, it's pretty clear that it was about the money -- the main programmer was working on this in his spare time, and gave up when he got a full-time job.

The guy already had a job, and then went to make this, and then jumped for another job. They had enough money to last a bit while longer, and the game is mostly complete.


My point still stands -- hiring part-time programmers for sub-standard wages doesn't lead to a complete product.
 
2012-10-22 02:06:03 AM  
Last kickstarter I gave to ponied up exactly what they said they'd send.

It was nicer than I expected.
 
2012-10-22 03:44:09 AM  

Sargun: MrEricSir: FTA: Haunts had raised $28,700 this summer (surpassing the initial $25,000 goal)...

Oh, you thought you were going to develop a game for $25k? That's cute.

What I don't get is why people donate to projects that are obviously asking for too little money. It costs money to make things, you're not getting something for nothing. More than likely, what you're getting is actually nothing.

The issue was not the money, but that two of the programmers jumped ship.


If the loss of two software guys is enough to tank your project, you're doing it wrong.
 
2012-10-22 04:11:52 AM  
So I shouldn't take money from strangers and I shouldn't give money to strangers?
 
2012-10-22 04:29:18 AM  

Sargun: MrEricSir: Sargun: The issue was not the money, but that two of the programmers jumped ship.

If you read the summary on Kickstarter, it's pretty clear that it was about the money -- the main programmer was working on this in his spare time, and gave up when he got a full-time job.

The guy already had a job, and then went to make this, and then jumped for another job. They had enough money to last a bit while longer, and the game is mostly complete.


Apparently the problem is that the main programmer convinced the creator that they 'needed' to write the thing with Go instead of C++. Now the creator unsurprisingly can't find anyone who can finish the project.
 
2012-10-22 06:34:58 AM  

Kelly McGlade: Well, not every project will succeed, however Kickstarter has helped a lot of projects:-
[s3.amazonaws.com image 640x400]

[6.mshcdn.com image 616x425]

[pikigeek.com image 580x326]


For those of us not in the loop, what are these games? That spider game looks awesome
 
2012-10-22 06:51:58 AM  
FTFA: "...Dakan claimed only two people have taken up his offer of a refund..."

VC Dudes: "What!? You guys have a chance of getting your money back?"


/I hope this doesn't discourage people from supporting Chris Roberts' latest project
 
2012-10-22 07:12:32 AM  

You're the jerk... jerk: Kelly McGlade: Well, not every project will succeed, however Kickstarter has helped a lot of projects:-
[s3.amazonaws.com image 640x400]

[6.mshcdn.com image 616x425]

[pikigeek.com image 580x326]

For those of us not in the loop, what are these games? That spider game looks awesome


I don't know what the top one is.

The second one is Castle Story. It is not yet released.

The bottom one is "FTL", as in Faster Than Light. It's available for $9.99 on Steam at the moment.
 
2012-10-22 07:17:37 AM  

starsrift: I'd be leery of any kickstarter software projects that 'employ' programmers, as opposed to being run by programmers.


At the same time, games made by programmers tend to end up looking more like Minecraft than Skyrim. As a programmer, I know that the skillset for programming and game design are not the biggest overlap on the Venn diagram. In general, you want to look for a team or a studio, that already has developers committed to the project through completion.

I did actually throw in on Haunts, mostly because a friend of mine was excited about the game, and I figured, "what the heck". Once funding closed, it rapidly became obvious that this guy didn't know how to run a project or communicate to customers.
 
2012-10-22 09:33:19 AM  
I consider funding something on Kickstarter in the same way I think of giving to charity. Most likely, my money is gone and didn't really help anything. maybe I got a t-shirt. however, there is a slim chance that my money helped someone do something. that's nice.

I don't think you should be funding these things expecting returns. It's a charity. If the ideas were that great, they'd be looking for investors and probably finding them. If the idea was that great, I'd rather give money as an investor and get some equity and be a part of the project.

sometimes these projects are even started by real geniuses of their trade. However, something the real world has taught me, genius is not the only requirement in a successful project. I imagine some of the reason these geniuses resort to kickstarter is that they are not very good at managing things or getting along with people, or the business side. Sure, they may be genius at making a video game, but they may suck balls at managing a team, managing their finances, and everything else that is as important as the original genius when it comes to finishing a project.
 
2012-10-22 09:46:42 AM  

pute kisses like a man: If the ideas were that great, they'd be looking for investors and probably finding them. If the idea was that great


You'd think that, but it's not really true. The guys behind Project Eternity commented that they approached game publishers, and all of the game publishers thought the idea was great- and then suggested the studio get Kickstarter funding, anyway. Game publishers love Kickstarter because it lets them do the publishing (and money-making) part, without investing in the up-front costs of production.

There are plenty of Kickstarters that are looking for, and finding, investors. Many of the more interesting, fund-intensive projects offer up reward tiers in the five figure range- and people claim them.

Very few of the interesting and well-funded kickstarters are some lone "genius" with a dream and no social skills. To the contrary, in many cases it's a team of people with a prototype of a product and a desire to bring it to market. They're using Kickstarter to get funding without giving equity. It's a great business model for the right kind of business.
 
2012-10-22 10:02:14 AM  
It's an investment, and well, not every investment pans out in the real world.

You have to do some thinking, and only give money to those companies you think will actually bring the product to market.
 
2012-10-22 10:08:42 AM  
Wow...that article was *not* about what subby claimed it was.
 
2012-10-22 11:06:10 AM  
Saying "I pledge money I can afford to lose" is less about being a baby venture capitalist and more about treating investment like charity.

You're tithing at the business altar when someone passes the collection plate.
 
2012-10-22 11:33:56 AM  

You're the jerk... jerk: Kelly McGlade: Well, not every project will succeed, however Kickstarter has helped a lot of projects:-
[s3.amazonaws.com image 640x400]

[6.mshcdn.com image 616x425]

[pikigeek.com image 580x326]

For those of us not in the loop, what are these games? That spider game looks awesome


The spider one is "Timber and Stone" its essentially a voxel minecraft with siege engines and castles. It has just secured its kickstarter funding with 4 days to go. here's the link:-
Link
 
2012-10-22 11:45:27 AM  
Having backed six Kickstarters and successfully running one of my own, I only go in on projects that are run by people with a proven track record or that I won't be upset if the project fails.

So far of those six, I've only received the finished product on one, but the others are doing good with regular updates and progress reports. None of them have disappeared and all of them have track records of delivering on Kickstarters.
 
2012-10-22 12:01:10 PM  
Can we not use the word 'invest' or 'investment' with crowd-funding?

It's not an investment. You are not getting equity. You don't own anything. It is not about recouping funds or gaining net worth.

You're donating money to someone's business. No different than donating to NPR or a charity - you're hoping to get some donation gift after the fact.

You just are donating to people that may give you something more interesting than a tote bag.
 
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