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(Press TV)   Tinfoil hats are already fluttering with conspiracy theories of Obama's loss in the not yet held election   (presstv.com) divider line 211
    More: Interesting, obama, Romney family, voting machines, October Surprise, Financial District, election night, equity funds, American Election  
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3261 clicks; posted to Politics » on 21 Oct 2012 at 2:04 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-21 10:00:52 PM

skullkrusher: the people who yell at movies aren't in a strongly Republican demographic


Yeah, poor folks never vote republican...
 
2012-10-21 10:01:35 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: dickfreckle: Delay: Weaver95: it would strike me as questionable...but not conclusive.

Fair enough, but why would Romney do such a questionable thing if it were not necessary. Seems as if he knows not owning the voting machines, which have no paper audit, they're black box machines, would be worse for him than not owning them. Same reasoning with the release of his income taxes. Romney knew showing them would be worse than the implication that he had stuff to hide.

This. The Romney clan has to know that even the appearance of impropriety is to be avoided at all costs. So why this curious investment? What could possibly be the motivation of the Romneys, knowing it doesn't pass the smell test?

They're rich and a significant percentage of the voting public would vote for them if Romney was caught on tape raping kittens, just so long as he had the R after his name. Rich in this country? Neither the law nor rules of polite society apply to you. Politically connected on the right? The media will never dare look askance at you. The Romneys are both.


The media's utter lack of teeth is really beginning to piss me off. I'm 38, and even though I was a very young man I recall a time when the press was a pack of wolves and you hoped not to cross them. Well, they still are, but it's more about celebrity now.

Sadly, were a member of Obama's family to have investments in voting machines, the press would be on fire for weeks. Were Democratic operatives responsible for the rash of voter fraud cases - no matter how minor - the press and FOX (note that I separated them) would be in a feeding frenzy. So why, WHY, are Republicans getting a pass on virtually everything they do, unless it's as mind-numbingly stupid as "legitimate rape?" And they only reported on that because they had no choice. It was already viral.

That anyone can look me in the face and, without a trace of a sarcastic grin, claim that the media is "liberal" just astounds me. Hell, look at the Tea Party vs. OWS. The TP got sh*t-tons of coverage on all major networks and in all newspapers/periodicals, and it was mostly to probe their side of the issues and not to mock them. OWS?

DRUM CIRCLES! HIPPIES!
 
2012-10-21 10:24:54 PM
At one time O was personable. Maybe more than Hillary.

Then he got all smarmy....
 
2012-10-21 10:25:04 PM

Weaver95: RedPhoenix122:
The worst part is it's not in the past, Bain is about to close down one in Freeport, Illinois and I'm noticing a small amount, but not much, discussion about it, and a complete silence from the Romney camp.

Also, per my list earlier, voter coercion. Several companies are now threatening to lay off people if Obama is reelected. The total amount of BS in this election is staggering.

OWS ran into the same sort of wall of silence. the corporate press DOES NOT want to talk about US companies moving jobs out of this country. they'd rather talk about the weather, or which hollywood starlett is sleeping around with which director/producer. anything other than our fiscal problems or the very well documented flaws in what we laughingly call 'capitalism'. people are angry...but they're not yet starving. we're in that weird 'in between' phase when everyone is mad as hell about the elite bankers but it's too early to start shooting the bastards.

for my part, I am continually amazed at rank and file republicans who think Romney (or the GOP in general) cares about the plight of workers in this country. there are piles of evidence that the GOP doesn't give a shiat about helping the middle class. yet, they still keep right on voting Republican. sometimes you just have to let 'em burn.


You could say the same thing about the military people and the way the Republicans treat veterans. I actually had a republican tell me that the GOP put a secret hold on the COLA bill for vets because it didn't contain any COLA's. I just had to say are you farking kidding me.
 
2012-10-21 10:36:37 PM
Fraud is a serious issue when it's black people and democrats.


When it's republicans it's a conspiracy theory.


How predictable.
 
2012-10-21 10:50:51 PM
skullkrusher 2012-10-21 09:22:47 PM

Kittypie070: jjorsett 2012-10-21 03:44:06 PM

what does GOP stupid have to do with this author's stupid?


FFS, look at the goddamn link Skully.

Dimwit is claiming it's Duh Durty Hippyz that are plotting to riot and I showed up his witless lying ass as WRONG.

Don't you dare start trying to mix up one of your nifty little massive thread shiatting argument clinics with ME.
 
2012-10-21 10:52:00 PM
And it was jjorsett I was addressing, not the author of the article.

So SHUT IT.
 
2012-10-21 10:57:10 PM

cc_rider: Not to say the general premise of this article isn't something to be concerned about, but I believe there are several more credible sources about voter suppression/dirty tricks/GOP fraud than an an article written by some 9/11 troofer on an Iranian state news site, no?


There are. An article by Victoria Collier in November's Harper's Magazine (not available online), from which much of this piece seems to be cribbed, makes a very strong case that not only can vote rigging happen here, it has happened here, and that today's computerized, privatized voting technology (only two corporations are, between them, responsible for counting more than half of the votes cast in the United States) has created opportunities for vote tampering that Huey Long and the folks at Tammany Hall could only dream about. She traces concerns about electronic voting systems back to Chuck Hagel's 1996 Senate campaign against Nebraska governor Ben Nelson. Despite pre-election polls that had the candidates essentially tied, Hagel won the election by 15 percentage points. Until shortly before the election, Hagel had been chairman of the company whose machines counted those votes: Election Systems and Software (ES&S).She covers most of the more suspiciously improbable election victories of the last 15 years, including Saxby Chambliss; Alvin Greene, the unemployed accused sex offender who won the South Carolina Democratic primary race to challenge Jim DeMint without campaigning (absentee ballots, counted by hand, ran as high as 84 percent in favor of his opponent in some precincts); Rick Scott; Wisconsin Supreme Court Justice David Prosser; and Massachusetts senator Scott Brown, who lost in locations where ballots were counted by hand, but made up for it by winning in communities where votes were tallied by computer.despite the fact that computerized districts were actually more Democratic by voter registration and electoral history than hand-count districts. She's careful not to overstate the case for fraud in any of these cases, but constructs a very strong argument that we should at least be very nervous about these easily hackable voting machines and the often unsavory characters who run the companies that provide them and control their software.

Personally, I feel we should follow the lead of Ireland and Germany and mandate that no presidential or congressional election results are official until every vote has been counted by hand under public observation. We can still use electronic machines to compile preliminary results, but those results should be considered no more reliable, or official, than exit polls.

Will never happen in my lifetime. Most Americans seem much more concerned whether or not a football player is "down by contact" before he fumbles than whether election results are legitimate. But a man can dream, right?
 
2012-10-21 11:12:55 PM

mab1823: Chimperror2: If Dems refrain from petitioning the courts to keep stronghold polling places open longer in close districts, I'll pay attention to "voter suppression" nonsense.

What would be wrong with allowing more people to vote?


Nothing. Extend it everywhere. Early voting. Late voting. Whatever. But that's not the way Dems work. It's always someplace where they can shape the vote in a close race. Look at the last 5 presidential elections and which areas were petitioned and ordered by the court to stay open later than all the other polling places (Hint: Dems ran buses to those places with a free food, provisional ballots, no ID required and debit cards for the liquor store later.) No one petitions the court and none are granted for conservative precincts in hotly contested districts. If you're not in line when the polls close, you don't vote in conservative precincts. Dick Gephardt did this in East St. Louis in 2000 election when both the presidential and congressional elections were close. East St. Louis has more registered voters than residents. Hmmmmmm. coincidence? Dems did this in Ohio in 2004 but only wanted the minority precinct to have extended hours even though the conservative and liberal precintcs had roughly the same number of voting machines, ballots, registered voters, etc. Dems got an extra two hours to get people to the polls in a precinct that had a 2:1 advantage for Democrats.

I doubt Dems would be open to the same thing being turned on them if conservative districts were given an additional 2 to 4 hours to get out the vote after the exit polling showed exactly how any voters they would need to get to the polls in those hours given precinct demographics..
 
2012-10-21 11:33:38 PM
Will all the GOP shenanigans get them closer to winning the election than they otherwise would have? Certainly.
Will it be enough to put them over the top? Probably not.

All of this shiat that the GOP is pulling is the only way they can even enjoy a 1 in 3 chance of winning.
 
2012-10-21 11:47:15 PM

Mugato: Can you republicans put down the farking partisan bullshiat for two seconds and honestly say that there's nothing shady about Romney's son buying out voting machines in a swing state?


Its definitely shady. This particular article is pretty wack though. I would imagine the Obama campaign has people watching Tagg and his investments quite carefully.
 
2012-10-21 11:49:28 PM

Gyrfalcon: Maybe just an attempt to keep the peace locally.


I don't think most people care, this time around. All the noise (on both sides, but especially from the Right) is coming from a very small part of the populace.

In the short term, it doesn't really matter if Romney is elected. What worries me is the damage he'll do in the long-term by refusing to regulate the banking industry and by lowering taxes.

We're at a tipping point in history
 
2012-10-21 11:55:09 PM

Dwight_Yeast: Gyrfalcon: Maybe just an attempt to keep the peace locally.

I don't think most people care, this time around. All the noise (on both sides, but especially from the Right) is coming from a very small part of the populace.

In the short term, it doesn't really matter if Romney is elected. What worries me is the damage he'll do in the long-term by refusing to regulate the banking industry and by lowering taxes.

We're at a tipping point in history


Meh we'll just keep borrowing.

Maybe we can put together a "guest worker" program where the 47% who don't pay taxes can make iPhones in China. That'll fix 'em. :D
 
2012-10-22 12:07:41 AM

Generation_D: TomD9938: FTA : Former President Jimmy Carter says that American elections, unlike elections in banana republics, are so hopelessly corrupt that they are not even worth monitoring

Well, it's certainly true that Carter won by fraud, so the writer may have a point.

What derpiverse did you come up with that one from.

The recognized fraudulent presidencies are usually accepted to be Rutherford B Hayes, Warren Glamiel Harding, John Fitzgerald Kennedy and George W. Bush.


Citation needed; the Harding administration was certainly crooked, but if there were any noteworthy shenanigans in the 1920 election, they've escaped the notice of history.
 
2012-10-22 12:10:34 AM

Dwight_Yeast: Gyrfalcon: Maybe just an attempt to keep the peace locally.

I don't think most people care, this time around. All the noise (on both sides, but especially from the Right) is coming from a very small part of the populace.

In the short term, it doesn't really matter if Romney is elected. What worries me is the damage he'll do in the long-term by refusing to regulate the banking industry and by lowering taxes.

We're at a tipping point in history


I would think that the biggest long term concern would be Supreme Court appointments, especially if the GOP also manage to take the Senate.
 
2012-10-22 12:16:33 AM

apoptotic: Dwight_Yeast: Gyrfalcon: Maybe just an attempt to keep the peace locally.

I don't think most people care, this time around. All the noise (on both sides, but especially from the Right) is coming from a very small part of the populace.

In the short term, it doesn't really matter if Romney is elected. What worries me is the damage he'll do in the long-term by refusing to regulate the banking industry and by lowering taxes.

We're at a tipping point in history

I would think that the biggest long term concern would be Supreme Court appointments, especially if the GOP also manage to take the Senate.


Pfft. They're going to take the Senate, and when the Supreme Court refuses to go back to precedent regarding the Romney/Obama Electoral tie, the Republican-controlled House will confirm Romney.

Bet me.
 
2012-10-22 12:54:01 AM

whidbey: apoptotic: Dwight_Yeast: Gyrfalcon: Maybe just an attempt to keep the peace locally.

I don't think most people care, this time around. All the noise (on both sides, but especially from the Right) is coming from a very small part of the populace.

In the short term, it doesn't really matter if Romney is elected. What worries me is the damage he'll do in the long-term by refusing to regulate the banking industry and by lowering taxes.

We're at a tipping point in history

I would think that the biggest long term concern would be Supreme Court appointments, especially if the GOP also manage to take the Senate.

Pfft. They're going to take the Senate, and when the Supreme Court refuses to go back to precedent regarding the Romney/Obama Electoral tie, the Republican-controlled House will confirm Romney.

Bet me.


Give me three-digit odds and I'll consider it.
 
2012-10-22 12:56:34 AM

vygramul: whidbey: apoptotic: Dwight_Yeast: Gyrfalcon: Maybe just an attempt to keep the peace locally.

I don't think most people care, this time around. All the noise (on both sides, but especially from the Right) is coming from a very small part of the populace.

In the short term, it doesn't really matter if Romney is elected. What worries me is the damage he'll do in the long-term by refusing to regulate the banking industry and by lowering taxes.

We're at a tipping point in history

I would think that the biggest long term concern would be Supreme Court appointments, especially if the GOP also manage to take the Senate.

Pfft. They're going to take the Senate, and when the Supreme Court refuses to go back to precedent regarding the Romney/Obama Electoral tie, the Republican-controlled House will confirm Romney.

Bet me.

Give me three-digit odds and I'll consider it.


Aw come on. You gotta love the image of the newly elected Republican House choosing Romney.

Panrific!
 
2012-10-22 12:57:30 AM
Who cares? Its all theater anyway. We chose between two carefully selected front men, already groomed and ready to implement the wishes of those with money. Its an open secret, but we have grown too distracted, lazy, and complacent to care more than a few angry internet post or a nice day in the sunshine holding up misspelled signs.
 
2012-10-22 01:02:11 AM

whidbey: Aw come on. You gotta love the image of the newly elected Republican House choosing Romney.

Panrific!


The gloating would be epic, that's for sure.
 
2012-10-22 01:03:03 AM

nmemkha: Who cares? Its all theater anyway. We chose between two carefully selected front men, already groomed and ready to implement the wishes of those with money. Its an open secret, but we have grown too distracted, lazy, and complacent to care more than a few angry internet post or a nice day in the sunshine holding up misspelled signs.


In other words, just because they let you vote for your favorite clown doesn't change who owns the circus.
 
2012-10-22 01:03:45 AM

nmemkha: Who cares? Its all theater anyway. We chose between two carefully selected front men, already groomed and ready to implement the wishes of those with money. Its an open secret, but we have grown too distracted, lazy, and complacent to care more than a few angry internet post or a nice day in the sunshine holding up misspelled signs.


Actually, you're welcome to study the rather long list of accomplishments this administration has achieved and take that smug "both parties are the same" crap and stuff it.
 
2012-10-22 01:14:24 AM

Spaz-master: [www.bloggernews.net image 450x338]

He's destroyed countries with far less BS


Who is that? Apart from the hair that looks just like my dad.
 
2012-10-22 01:15:50 AM

whidbey: nmemkha: Who cares? Its all theater anyway. We chose between two carefully selected front men, already groomed and ready to implement the wishes of those with money. Its an open secret, but we have grown too distracted, lazy, and complacent to care more than a few angry internet post or a nice day in the sunshine holding up misspelled signs.

Actually, you're welcome to study the rather long list of accomplishments this administration has achieved and take that smug "both parties are the same" crap and stuff it.


You would have thought that became obvious after we invaded Iraq. Then again, there are plenty of new 20 year-olds who were 11 in 2003 and think Gore would have also invaded Iraq. Seems like that should be enough of a difference to disabuse anyone of that silly faux-libertarian BSAB rebelliousness.
 
2012-10-22 01:18:47 AM

vygramul: that silly faux-libertarian BSAB rebelliousness.


this
 
2012-10-22 01:21:46 AM

whidbey: nmemkha: Who cares? Its all theater anyway. We chose between two carefully selected front men, already groomed and ready to implement the wishes of those with money. Its an open secret, but we have grown too distracted, lazy, and complacent to care more than a few angry internet post or a nice day in the sunshine holding up misspelled signs.

Actually, you're welcome to study the rather long list of accomplishments this administration has achieved and take that smug "both parties are the same" crap and stuff it.


It not substantive change. The problems we are facing are the result of the status quo, especially our corporate, monetary, and banking systems. Our infrastructure is crumbing, our educational system is a mess. Our banking and investor sectors are rife with corruption; the list goes on and on. While people quibble over social issues and cheer pittances like Obamacare, the real problems get kicked down the line where they continue to balloon beyond any hope of rectification.
 
2012-10-22 01:29:06 AM

nmemkha: whidbey: nmemkha: Who cares? Its all theater anyway. We chose between two carefully selected front men, already groomed and ready to implement the wishes of those with money. Its an open secret, but we have grown too distracted, lazy, and complacent to care more than a few angry internet post or a nice day in the sunshine holding up misspelled signs.

Actually, you're welcome to study the rather long list of accomplishments this administration has achieved and take that smug "both parties are the same" crap and stuff it.

It not substantive change.


Your opinion.

The problems we are facing are the result of the status quo, especially our corporate, monetary, and banking systems. Our infrastructure is crumbing, our educational system is a mess. Our banking and investor sectors are rife with corruption; the list goes on and on. While people quibble over social issues and cheer pittances like Obamacare, the real problems get kicked down the line where they continue to balloon beyond any hope of rectification.

Well then we had better stop electing Republicans and other selfish socially conservative types to office.

We're still way better off if we put into practice the goals this administration has been proposing. And you know it.
 
2012-10-22 01:35:25 AM

whidbey: nmemkha: whidbey: nmemkha: Who cares? Its all theater anyway. We chose between two carefully selected front men, already groomed and ready to implement the wishes of those with money. Its an open secret, but we have grown too distracted, lazy, and complacent to care more than a few angry internet post or a nice day in the sunshine holding up misspelled signs.

Actually, you're welcome to study the rather long list of accomplishments this administration has achieved and take that smug "both parties are the same" crap and stuff it.

It not substantive change.

Your opinion.

The problems we are facing are the result of the status quo, especially our corporate, monetary, and banking systems. Our infrastructure is crumbing, our educational system is a mess. Our banking and investor sectors are rife with corruption; the list goes on and on. While people quibble over social issues and cheer pittances like Obamacare, the real problems get kicked down the line where they continue to balloon beyond any hope of rectification.

Well then we had better stop electing Republicans and other selfish socially conservative types to office.

We're still way better off if we put into practice the goals this administration has been proposing. And you know it.


Its going to be Evil vs Lesser Evil from here on out. The problem will be the Lesser Evil will be a little more evil each iteration.

However the GOP will get us to end goal of an oligarchic corpocracy a lot faster. We will keep the trappings of democracy, but money alone will be true measure of political power. We will have the best government money can buy and the one our lazy asses deserve.
 
2012-10-22 01:35:58 AM

whidbey: In the short term, it doesn't really matter if Romney is elected. What worries me is the damage he'll do in the long-term by refusing to regulate the banking industry and by lowering taxes.

We're at a tipping point in history

Meh we'll just keep borrowing.


It's not the debt that worries me.

It's the next financial crisis which is coming sooner rather than later if we don't regulate and control Wall St. Unless we return to something like Glass-Steagall, we'll see another major economic crisis in this decade.

And lowering taxes is a problem because it will serve to widen the gap between rich and poor and wipe out what's left of the middle classes.

Combine these two elements and things get very bad very quickly.
 
2012-10-22 01:42:16 AM

nmemkha: Its going to be Evil vs Lesser Evil from here on out. The problem will be the Lesser Evil will be a little more evil each iteration.


The Democratic Party is not a "lesser evil."

Again, you're welcome to actually study the accomplishments of the past 4 years, but I doubt you will.

The fact is that we need another Democratic Party President after Obama, and then maybe even after that. It's the only way this country is going to progress in lieu of a 3rd party.

Accept it.

However the GOP will get us to end goal of an oligarchic corpocracy a lot faster. We will keep the trappings of democracy, but money alone will be true measure of political power. We will have the best government money can buy and the one our lazy asses deserve.

Oh so both political parties aren't actually the same, there's a notable difference.

Confuse much?
 
2012-10-22 01:48:39 AM

whidbey: nmemkha: whidbey: nmemkha: Who cares? Its all theater anyway. We chose between two carefully selected front men, already groomed and ready to implement the wishes of those with money. Its an open secret, but we have grown too distracted, lazy, and complacent to care more than a few angry internet post or a nice day in the sunshine holding up misspelled signs.

Actually, you're welcome to study the rather long list of accomplishments this administration has achieved and take that smug "both parties are the same" crap and stuff it.

It not substantive change.

Your opinion.

The problems we are facing are the result of the status quo, especially our corporate, monetary, and banking systems. Our infrastructure is crumbing, our educational system is a mess. Our banking and investor sectors are rife with corruption; the list goes on and on. While people quibble over social issues and cheer pittances like Obamacare, the real problems get kicked down the line where they continue to balloon beyond any hope of rectification.

Well then we had better stop electing Republicans and other selfish socially conservative types to office.

We're still way better off if we put into practice the goals this administration has been proposing. And you know it.


Both are not necessarily untrue. Some things need to get done and hence get done despite the bipartisan bickering; or get done when one side relinquishes "it's" version and goes with "their" version that isn't really radically different but has somebody else's name as a sponsor. And some things, like the economic and banking problems, actually benefit both sides of the aisle, with the result that neither proposes changes. You don't think it's only the rich Republicans who benefit from the current tax laws, do you? Or that Boehner was speaking only for his GOP cronies when he said he got 98% of what he wanted?

And some things are beyond the reach of partisan politics and are the result of the weight of too much contradictory law and regulation. Infrastructure collapse and educational disasters have come about not because of Republican vs. Democrat quarreling, but more because of too much legal and regulatory layering; budget cuts in other areas; environmental studies, legal wrangling, NIMBYism...all that takes place at the local level and may never reach the state or Federal politicians. But laying it all off on the other side is a great way to keep the status quo in place--it keeps the hoipolloi distracted from fixing the actual issues.
 
2012-10-22 02:03:13 AM

Gyrfalcon: And some things, like the economic and banking problems, actually benefit both sides of the aisle, with the result that neither proposes changes. You don't think it's only the rich Republicans who benefit from the current tax laws, do you? Or that Boehner was speaking only for his GOP cronies when he said he got 98% of what he wanted?


The Democratic party clearly wants more regulation of business, and higher taxes for the wealthy.

I don't see anything comparable to this ideology in the Republican ranks.

And some things are beyond the reach of partisan politics and are the result of the weight of too much contradictory law and regulation. Infrastructure collapse and educational disasters have come about not because of Republican vs. Democrat quarreling, but more because of too much legal and regulatory layering; budget cuts in other areas; environmental studies, legal wrangling, NIMBYism...all that takes place at the local level and may never reach the state or Federal politicians. But laying it all off on the other side is a great way to keep the status quo in place--it keeps the hoipolloi distracted from fixing the actual issues.

While I understand that big money and its associated business interests are fighting to keep things that way, the fact is that people have a lot more of a chance of changing that status quo with the Democrats in office. This is a fact.

And until the possibility of a 3rd party becomes more realistic, we should be throwing all of our support into the Democratic Party, it really is that simple. Otherwise, enjoy living off the grid and not participating in the system.
 
2012-10-22 02:04:45 AM

nmemkha: whidbey: nmemkha: Who cares? Its all theater anyway. We chose between two carefully selected front men, already groomed and ready to implement the wishes of those with money. Its an open secret, but we have grown too distracted, lazy, and complacent to care more than a few angry internet post or a nice day in the sunshine holding up misspelled signs.

Actually, you're welcome to study the rather long list of accomplishments this administration has achieved and take that smug "both parties are the same" crap and stuff it.

It not substantive change. The problems we are facing are the result of the status quo, especially our corporate, monetary, and banking systems. Our infrastructure is crumbing, our educational system is a mess. Our banking and investor sectors are rife with corruption; the list goes on and on. While people quibble over social issues and cheer pittances like Obamacare, the real problems get kicked down the line where they continue to balloon beyond any hope of rectification.


Pop quiz: during which administration was the Consumer Finance Protection Bureau created, and which candidate would eliminate it? Hint: Both sides are not the same.
 
2012-10-22 02:14:09 AM

apoptotic: Both sides are not the same.


Honestly, having to explain why they aren't really really gets old.

Libertarians are the 2012 equivalent of the Me Generation....
 
2012-10-22 02:24:47 AM

whidbey: Gyrfalcon: And some things, like the economic and banking problems, actually benefit both sides of the aisle, with the result that neither proposes changes. You don't think it's only the rich Republicans who benefit from the current tax laws, do you? Or that Boehner was speaking only for his GOP cronies when he said he got 98% of what he wanted?

The Democratic party clearly wants more regulation of business, and higher taxes for the wealthy.

I don't see anything comparable to this ideology in the Republican ranks.

And some things are beyond the reach of partisan politics and are the result of the weight of too much contradictory law and regulation. Infrastructure collapse and educational disasters have come about not because of Republican vs. Democrat quarreling, but more because of too much legal and regulatory layering; budget cuts in other areas; environmental studies, legal wrangling, NIMBYism...all that takes place at the local level and may never reach the state or Federal politicians. But laying it all off on the other side is a great way to keep the status quo in place--it keeps the hoipolloi distracted from fixing the actual issues.

While I understand that big money and its associated business interests are fighting to keep things that way, the fact is that people have a lot more of a chance of changing that status quo with the Democrats in office. This is a fact.

And until the possibility of a 3rd party becomes more realistic, we should be throwing all of our support into the Democratic Party, it really is that simple. Otherwise, enjoy living off the grid and not participating in the system.


I never said one side wasn't worse than the other. The Evil vs. Lesser evil comments should give you guys a clue. I assert it moot, given both sides are beholden to the same interests. Barring revolution, or a real 3rd party that truly embraces democratic ideals rather than just pandering to them, things are not going to change. That said, I am voting Democratic because I want to believe I live in a free and democratic country where my rights are secure and my vote matters. But, I must wrestle with the cognitive dissonance caused by the truth I see in our leaders not jiving with ideals I was taught.
 
2012-10-22 02:26:34 AM

nmemkha: The Evil vs. Lesser evil comments should give you guys a clue


Oh trust me, it does. It makes me want to lay into anyone making that kind of absurd cynical contention even harder.
 
2012-10-22 02:31:04 AM

whidbey: nmemkha: The Evil vs. Lesser evil comments should give you guys a clue

Oh trust me, it does. It makes me want to lay into anyone making that kind of absurd cynical contention even harder.


Ever talk a WWE fan about their "side"?
 
2012-10-22 02:33:55 AM

nmemkha: whidbey: nmemkha: The Evil vs. Lesser evil comments should give you guys a clue

Oh trust me, it does. It makes me want to lay into anyone making that kind of absurd cynical contention even harder.

Ever talk a WWE fan about their "side"?


Yeah I know you believe both parties are like fans cheerleading their favorite baseball teams.

That's actually part of the problem here. I guess I really don't get where someone would so willfully ignore an elected leadership's accomplishments and achieved goals while at the same time offering no other viable plan or alternative.
 
2012-10-22 02:36:58 AM

whidbey: nmemkha: whidbey: nmemkha: The Evil vs. Lesser evil comments should give you guys a clue

Oh trust me, it does. It makes me want to lay into anyone making that kind of absurd cynical contention even harder.

Ever talk a WWE fan about their "side"?

Yeah I know you believe both parties are like fans cheerleading their favorite baseball teams.

That's actually part of the problem here. I guess I really don't get where someone would so willfully ignore an elected leadership's accomplishments and achieved goals while at the same time offering no other viable plan or alternative.


There is no alternative, democracy is a failure. The same thing happened that happened to every human system of governance: a tiny few wind up with nearly all the resource and power. It seems we cannot sustain any form of governance other than benevolent dictatorships.
 
2012-10-22 02:38:13 AM

nmemkha: That said, I am voting Democratic because I want to believe I live in a free and democratic country where my rights are secure and my vote matters. But, I must wrestle with the cognitive dissonance caused by the truth I see in our leaders not jiving with ideals I was taught.


Well, at least we agree on something. But again, I don't understand how you would propose any alternative that doesn't involve the political art of compromise. There is no all or nothing.

And if it does seem that the 1% get the better end of the bargain, it's our fault for not being more directly involved in the process. I really do feel that apathy is the real culprit, not two political parties equating in some square peg/round hole fashion.
 
2012-10-22 02:41:58 AM

nmemkha: There is no alternative, democracy is a failure. The same thing happened that happened to every human system of governance: a tiny few wind up with nearly all the resource and power. It seems we cannot sustain any form of governance other than benevolent dictatorships.


There's no reason to believe that we can't make our system of representative democracy work. The fact is, it usually does.

The mistake is allowing the 1% to take that much control, and we're at the point in our society where we recognize it's possible to change paradigms through regulation and other means.
 
2012-10-22 02:47:49 AM

whidbey: nmemkha: That said, I am voting Democratic because I want to believe I live in a free and democratic country where my rights are secure and my vote matters. But, I must wrestle with the cognitive dissonance caused by the truth I see in our leaders not jiving with ideals I was taught.

Well, at least we agree on something. But again, I don't understand how you would propose any alternative that doesn't involve the political art of compromise. There is no all or nothing.

And if it does seem that the 1% get the better end of the bargain, it's our fault for not being more directly involved in the process. I really do feel that apathy is the real culprit, not two political parties equating in some square peg/round hole fashion.


Its not the system that is at fault, but the implementation. Most political systems look good on paper, but their implementations invariably become corrupted by human failings. Maybe a cycle of revolution is the best we can manage, but that is a sad testament to our inability to overcome our selfish natures and work together for the common good.
 
2012-10-22 02:52:05 AM

nmemkha: Its not the system that is at fault, but the implementation. Most political systems look good on paper, but their implementations invariably become corrupted by human failings. Maybe a cycle of revolution is the best we can manage, but that is a sad testament to our inability to overcome our selfish natures and work together for the common good.


OK so while you're doing all that internalizing, I'm going to do what I can and actually put some effort into accomplishing things with other like-minded people. Bonus: very likely all Democrats.
 
2012-10-22 02:53:21 AM

whidbey: nmemkha: Its not the system that is at fault, but the implementation. Most political systems look good on paper, but their implementations invariably become corrupted by human failings. Maybe a cycle of revolution is the best we can manage, but that is a sad testament to our inability to overcome our selfish natures and work together for the common good.

OK so while you're doing all that internalizing, I'm going to do what I can and actually put some effort into accomplishing things with other like-minded people. Bonus: very likely all Democrats.


Good luck. I will grab a bucket and help you, but that gash in the side of our boat is awfully big.
 
2012-10-22 02:54:38 AM

nmemkha: whidbey: nmemkha: Its not the system that is at fault, but the implementation. Most political systems look good on paper, but their implementations invariably become corrupted by human failings. Maybe a cycle of revolution is the best we can manage, but that is a sad testament to our inability to overcome our selfish natures and work together for the common good.

OK so while you're doing all that internalizing, I'm going to do what I can and actually put some effort into accomplishing things with other like-minded people. Bonus: very likely all Democrats.

Good luck. I will grab a bucket and help you, but that gash in the side of our boat is awfully big.


Or maybe I will just say "fark it" and rearrange the deck chairs with everyone else. Seems less stressful.
 
2012-10-22 02:59:16 AM

nmemkha: whidbey: nmemkha: Its not the system that is at fault, but the implementation. Most political systems look good on paper, but their implementations invariably become corrupted by human failings. Maybe a cycle of revolution is the best we can manage, but that is a sad testament to our inability to overcome our selfish natures and work together for the common good.

OK so while you're doing all that internalizing, I'm going to do what I can and actually put some effort into accomplishing things with other like-minded people. Bonus: very likely all Democrats.

Good luck. I will grab a bucket and help you, but that gash in the side of our boat is awfully big.


Thanks. Sorry if I harshed you out. I just don't see it as conspiratorial as you do. I really believe the problem is antiquated conservative republicanism, and that representative democracy is a true foil to anarchy.
 
2012-10-22 03:00:33 AM
OK, too many syllables there. Time for bed.
 
2012-10-22 03:06:32 AM

whidbey: nmemkha: whidbey: nmemkha: Its not the system that is at fault, but the implementation. Most political systems look good on paper, but their implementations invariably become corrupted by human failings. Maybe a cycle of revolution is the best we can manage, but that is a sad testament to our inability to overcome our selfish natures and work together for the common good.

OK so while you're doing all that internalizing, I'm going to do what I can and actually put some effort into accomplishing things with other like-minded people. Bonus: very likely all Democrats.

Good luck. I will grab a bucket and help you, but that gash in the side of our boat is awfully big.

Thanks. Sorry if I harshed you out. I just don't see it as conspiratorial as you do. I really believe the problem is antiquated conservative republicanism, and that representative democracy is a true foil to anarchy.


No worries, I am heartened by your zeal to prevent the inevitable. Its not about a conspiracy, its about the cycle of human governance. As Robert Frost wrote, "nothing gold can stay." We are on a cyclic downswing and no matter who we elect, bad times are coming. We have too much comeuppance due to escape it. The problem is that, like always, the brunt of it will fall on the working classes.

Maybe this time we will learn from our mistakes. Just maybe ... Yeah, and maybe I'm a Chinese jet pilot.
 
2012-10-22 03:07:16 AM

whidbey: OK, too many syllables there. Time for bed.


Have a good night.
 
2012-10-22 07:21:39 AM

whidbey: It's going to be Florida2: Electric Boogaloo, isn't it?


No, Ohio in 2004 was Florida 2. This will be Florida 3: This Time It's Personal.
 
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