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(Time)   Time asks if it is all right for teachers to spank your little monkey   (healthland.time.com) divider line 106
    More: Obvious, physical punishment, Oklahoma State University, largest school districts, Texas school districts, cognitive development, hyperactivity, antisocial behavior, teachers  
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5087 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Oct 2012 at 9:00 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-20 02:07:48 AM  
FTFA: Spanking is one of the many things about which parents agree - passionately - to disagree. Most American parents swear by the old adage "Spare the rod, spoil the child," but others are horrified by the very thought of raising a hand to a kid.

Okay. Tell you what, parents. Those of you who think your little snowflakes should never be spanked will sign a document attesting to your promise to drop whatever you're doing and come to the school to pick up your child whenever he or she is behaving in a way that would warrant corporal punishment under school guidelines. No ifs, ands, or buts. If you fail to live up to this promise, your child will be expelled and you will be required to relocate to another school system at your expense. Otherwise, give us the power to properly discipline your child and STFU.
 
2012-10-20 02:24:02 AM  

Fark Me To Tears: FTFA: Spanking is one of the many things about which parents agree - passionately - to disagree. Most American parents swear by the old adage "Spare the rod, spoil the child," but others are horrified by the very thought of raising a hand to a kid.

Okay. Tell you what, parents. Those of you who think your little snowflakes should never be spanked will sign a document attesting to your promise to drop whatever you're doing and come to the school to pick up your child whenever he or she is behaving in a way that would warrant corporal punishment under school guidelines. No ifs, ands, or buts. If you fail to live up to this promise, your child will be expelled and you will be required to relocate to another school system at your expense. Otherwise, give us the power to properly discipline your child and STFU.


Nope. I'll make sure he behaves in class. If he acts like a clown and needs to be removed, do it. Touch him and now we have a problem. If you're a teacher, you know children. They're like most of FARK; petulant, impulsive and generally ruled by emotion. You signed on as a teacher, you know these things. Deal with them appropriately and assume I, as the parent, want my kid respectful to you. He gives you grief, you call me. I'll deal with him at home. You don't get to hit my child.
 
2012-10-20 02:45:49 AM  

Fark Me To Tears: FTFA: Spanking is one of the many things about which parents agree - passionately - to disagree. Most American parents swear by the old adage "Spare the rod, spoil the child," but others are horrified by the very thought of raising a hand to a kid.

Okay. Tell you what, parents. Those of you who think your little snowflakes should never be spanked will sign a document attesting to your promise to drop whatever you're doing and come to the school to pick up your child whenever he or she is behaving in a way that would warrant corporal punishment under school guidelines. No ifs, ands, or buts. If you fail to live up to this promise, your child will be expelled and you will be required to relocate to another school system at your expense. Otherwise, give us the power to properly discipline your child and STFU.


Leaving aside the fetishistic aspects of spanking, your proposal takes an incredibly complex problem which encompasses a large segment of the population over a significant span of their life, and offers exactly two solutions. c'mon, it's a little more complicated than that, no?

I think spanking is great. Between two well-adjusted adults. As fun as sparring, without having to show up at work with a busted tooth or black eye. But seriously, allowing an adult to spank a kid? someone else's kid? That's wrong. Somewhere between baby-punching wrong and scoutmaster wrong.
 
2012-10-20 07:59:56 AM  

Fark Me To Tears: Okay. Tell you what, parents. Those of you who think your little snowflakes should never be spanked will sign a document attesting to your promise to drop whatever you're doing and come to the school to pick up your child whenever he or she is behaving in a way that would warrant corporal punishment under school guidelines. No ifs, ands, or buts. If you fail to live up to this promise, your child will be expelled and you will be required to relocate to another school system at your expense. Otherwise, give us the power to properly discipline your child and STFU.


That was almost exactly the agreement we signed with the local church daycare for our kids age 1 to 3. At 3 we sent them to Montessori schools. Strangely, the parents who refused the corporal part had the biggest asshole kids.
 
/our kids never got spanked
//the refusing parents seemed to be on the sign-out list in the middle of the day quite often
 
2012-10-20 09:02:12 AM  
I say just hook them all up to shock collars (you could turn down the voltage!) and let the teacher zap 'em without ever laying a hand on 'em. Teach the little bastards the world will tolerate their shiat and that actions have immediate and mysterious consequences. It's the sort of thing a five year old should learn.
 
2012-10-20 09:02:56 AM  

Fark Me To Tears: FTFA: Spanking is one of the many things about which parents agree - passionately - to disagree. Most American parents swear by the old adage "Spare the rod, spoil the child," but others are horrified by the very thought of raising a hand to a kid.

Okay. Tell you what, parents. Those of you who think your little snowflakes should never be spanked will sign a document attesting to your promise to drop whatever you're doing and come to the school to pick up your child whenever he or she is behaving in a way that would warrant corporal punishment under school guidelines. No ifs, ands, or buts. If you fail to live up to this promise, your child will be expelled and you will be required to relocate to another school system at your expense. Otherwise, give us the power to properly discipline your child and STFU.


Really? Go f*ck yourself. You're an idiot.
 
2012-10-20 09:04:58 AM  
Kids need a few good beatings. Helps them learn that real life isn't all foam covered rounded corners and time outs.

We should bring back washing kids mouths out with soap too. Mention honey boo boo? You're getting soaped.
 
2012-10-20 09:05:10 AM  

Ennuipoet: I say just hook them all up to shock collars (you could turn down the voltage!) and let the teacher zap 'em without ever laying a hand on 'em. Teach the little bastards the world will tolerate their shiat and that actions have immediate and mysterious consequences. It's the sort of thing a five year old should learn.


Or we could just eat them. That would seem like a more moment proposal.

/had to be done
 
2012-10-20 09:12:34 AM  
I definitely need to be spanked retroactively by my 10th grade English teacher.

(I am 42 and she was a hottie fresh out of college, and still is the hawt)

But the question at hand.... My headstrong kid sometimes needs a reminder of who is in charge, so spank away.
 
2012-10-20 09:13:20 AM  
DNRTFA, but I am a public school teacher (in Canada). If you have to resort to corporal discipline in your classroom, you're either unimaginative or just plain bad at your job. There are so many more effective ways to ge tthe kids to behave themselves, why would you bother doing something like spanking when it's so useless AND controversial?

That being said, I'm not against spanking. As a parent, I do see how there are some circumstances where an association with a given dangerous behaviour and "pain" might be effective (e.g. smacking your toddler on the butt if he gets too near a hot kettle). But those kinds of situations never come up in a school setting anyway.
 
2012-10-20 09:14:18 AM  
Here's an even easier program: touch my kid and I break your face. If he/she is a problem, take them out of class. I will discipline them when I bring them home.
 
2012-10-20 09:15:36 AM  

Fark Me To Tears: Those of you who think your little snowflakes should never be spanked will sign a document attesting to your promise to drop whatever you're doing and come to the school to pick up your child whenever he or she is behaving in a way that would warrant corporal punishment under school guidelines. No ifs, ands, or buts. If you fail to live up to this promise, your child will be expelled and you will be required to relocate to another school system at your expense. Otherwise, give us the power to properly discipline your child and STFU.


Why should parents be expected to drop everything and run simply because the school can only think of one disciplinary policy?
 
2012-10-20 09:16:50 AM  

dugitman: That was almost exactly the agreement we signed with the local church daycare for our kids age 1 to 3. At 3 we sent them to Montessori schools. Strangely, the parents who refused the corporal part had the biggest asshole kids.


Are you saying that your church daycare believed in beating 1, 2 and 3 year olds? Good grief.
 
2012-10-20 09:17:06 AM  
My wife has a little brother that I met when he was ~8. No men in the family, so he had been raised entirely by the women of the family. You can imagine how babied he was. Within six months he understood and respected the term 'upside your head'. Now he pays attention when ordered to do something, less excuses and more action on his part. He went from a kid who could barely operate a Nintendo DS to someone that will eagerly mow my lawn and do other tedious yard work, at the low rate of $1 per job. He's in trouble less at school and gets better grades. My mother-in-law hated my method, but now she's a fan of the phrase. It gets results, just know that eventually they will be bigger than you and may fight back; I have a few years before that comes about.
 
2012-10-20 09:17:55 AM  
My dad told me:

1. Whatever trouble you get in st school, expect worse at home.
2. If you get arrested, don't waste your phone call on me.

He meant it, and I knew it.
 
2012-10-20 09:20:16 AM  

bertgomez: My dad told me:

1. Whatever trouble you get in st school, expect worse at home.
2. If you get arrested, don't waste your phone call on me.

He meant it, and I knew it.


And I'll bet he raised a heartless serial killer.
 
2012-10-20 09:23:55 AM  

orbister: Why should parents be expected to drop everything and run simply because the school can only think of one disciplinary policy?


If you cannot drop everything to deal with your runny shiat of a kid, you don't deserve to be a parent.

/It's a parents job to drop everything for their kid
 
2012-10-20 09:28:51 AM  

orbister: Are you saying that your church daycare believed in beating 1, 2 and 3 year olds? Good grief.


Nah, no kids were 'beaten'. The daycare was run by a group of old ladies who would at most swat a kid on the butt to separate a fight or something. Honestly I never heard of a kid getting taken aside and spanked. They had a whole list of procedures for disciplining kids, with spanking being a last resort type thing you had to sign off on... or alternately- agree to come in immediately and pick up your kid if their other methods weren't working(timeouts, standing in the corner, etc). Also, we're atheists so we only sent the kids there cause it was cheap and we liked the old ladies who worked there. One of them lives in Floriday now, but still remembers both kids' birthdays and sends them a 2 dollar bill through the mail. She keeps up with them through facebook pictures nearly 5 years later. 
 
2012-10-20 09:31:10 AM  
 
2012-10-20 09:37:04 AM  
I would rather them come over and spank my monkey then have sex with students.
 
2012-10-20 09:37:27 AM  
I'm a teacher as well. Totally agree with Gortex. If you can't maintain control of your classroom without resorting to spanking, you probably should consider another profession. There are so many better ways to achieve the desired behavior.
 
2012-10-20 09:37:57 AM  

fluffy2097: If you cannot drop everything to deal with your runny shiat of a kid, you don't deserve to be a parent.

/It's a parents job to drop everything for their kid


It is not the school's job to call the parents in every single time something happens that they would rather not happen.
 
2012-10-20 09:39:33 AM  

Fark Me To Tears: Otherwise, give us the power to properly discipline your child and STFU.


You don't have the power to properly discipline a child without striking them? You would be the type of teacher whose methods simply bolster misbehavior as students age, making the task of correction, not to mention learning itself, in later years harder on everyone, thus diminishing the patience of latter teachers who resort to similar mindsets.
 
2012-10-20 09:40:51 AM  
I'm a teacher as well. Totally agree with Gortex. If you can't maintain control of your classroom without resorting to spanking, you should probably consider another profession. There are so many better ways to get kids to behave.
 
2012-10-20 09:43:03 AM  

zena: I'm a teacher as well. Totally agree with Gortex. If you can't maintain control of your classroom without resorting to spanking, you probably should consider another profession. There are so many better ways to achieve the desired behavior.


And as an addendum to my above comments: Yeah, there may be a time for spanking kids, but elementary school is probably too late. And a teaching professional should not have to make a decision on whether to use it on your misbehaving kid.
 
2012-10-20 09:44:02 AM  
Why should we only beat children? If you do something I don't approve of, I should get to beat you and no resisting or the beating will continue. Beating people to make them do what you want is barbaric and idiotic.
 
2012-10-20 09:44:17 AM  
a7.typepad.com

Prefers shocking them.
 
2012-10-20 09:46:50 AM  
Well, it's not gonnna spank itself.
 
2012-10-20 09:48:26 AM  
I don't think a teacher should be allowed to spank my kid. But I think that a robot would be okay. The Spankbot 9000. They'd measure body fat and mass and calculate the proper force. If the kid's tough: it would increase the "pop" (noise factor) and "crack" (sting factors) by 5% each swing (until the proper amount of tears and blubbing erupt). It would incorporate lie-detecting tech so it wouldn't be fooled by any crocodile tears.

Also: during the robosmacking, a recording of James Earl Jones' voice would say, "This hurts me more than it does you," and, "I love you, but this is for your own good." If you struggle and cry before the first blow lands it'll say, "Why are you crying? I'll GIVE you something to CRY about!"
 
2012-10-20 09:50:59 AM  
Each pupil and situation should be examined and handled eeperately. Teachers,parents and cops are not always right. Neither are pupils and students. Physical action is just the easiest method.
 
2012-10-20 09:51:40 AM  

Gortex: DNRTFA, but I am a public school teacher (in Canada). If you have to resort to corporal discipline in your classroom, you're either unimaginative or just plain bad at your job. There are so many more effective ways to ge tthe kids to behave themselves, why would you bother doing something like spanking when it's so useless AND controversial?

That being said, I'm not against spanking. As a parent, I do see how there are some circumstances where an association with a given dangerous behaviour and "pain" might be effective (e.g. smacking your toddler on the butt if he gets too near a hot kettle). But those kinds of situations never come up in a school setting anyway.


Thank you for bringing this up! With so many different behavioral supports and interventions available, I don't see why spanking should an option.
 
2012-10-20 09:54:43 AM  

TheSwizz: My wife has a little brother that I met when he was ~8. No men in the family, so he had been raised entirely by the women of the family. You can imagine how babied he was. Within six months he understood and respected the term 'upside your head'. Now he pays attention when ordered to do something, less excuses and more action on his part. He went from a kid who could barely operate a Nintendo DS to someone that will eagerly mow my lawn and do other tedious yard work, at the low rate of $1 per job. He's in trouble less at school and gets better grades. My mother-in-law hated my method, but now she's a fan of the phrase. It gets results, just know that eventually they will be bigger than you and may fight back; I have a few years before that comes about.


What does paying him a dollar to go down on you have to do with the topic at hand?

Oh, punishment, got it.
 
2012-10-20 09:54:57 AM  

Spad31: Fark Me To Tears: FTFA: Spanking is one of the many things about which parents agree - passionately - to disagree. Most American parents swear by the old adage "Spare the rod, spoil the child," but others are horrified by the very thought of raising a hand to a kid.

Okay. Tell you what, parents. Those of you who think your little snowflakes should never be spanked will sign a document attesting to your promise to drop whatever you're doing and come to the school to pick up your child whenever he or she is behaving in a way that would warrant corporal punishment under school guidelines. No ifs, ands, or buts. If you fail to live up to this promise, your child will be expelled and you will be required to relocate to another school system at your expense. Otherwise, give us the power to properly discipline your child and STFU.

Nope. I'll make sure he behaves in class. If he acts like a clown and needs to be removed, do it. Touch him and now we have a problem. If you're a teacher, you know children. They're like most of FARK; petulant, impulsive and generally ruled by emotion. You signed on as a teacher, you know these things. Deal with them appropriately and assume I, as the parent, want my kid respectful to you. He gives you grief, you call me. I'll deal with him at home. You don't get to hit my child.



If you were effectively dealing with your snowflake they would not need to call you. All removing the snowflake for the class accomplishes is teaching them that if they want to get out to class act up.

As you stated children are "petulant, impulsive and generally ruled by emotion" which means you may not be able to reason with them, that is why you spank. It is something their not fully developed frontal lobe mind understands.

If you do not want to give the schools the authority to keep your snowflake in line then home school him/her so other people's kids do not have to have their education disrupted by your spawn.
.
 
2012-10-20 09:55:33 AM  

zena: I'm a teacher as well. Totally agree with Gortex. If you can't maintain control of your classroom without resorting to spanking, you probably should consider another profession. There are so many better ways to achieve the desired behavior.


Spanking works pretty well . I only got two of them in 12 years of pubic school , Also the punishment was left up to the student .You get a paddling or your parents will be notified and /or you will be be expelled . My grades were not good enough that I could afford to be expelled and I damn sure didn't want my partents knowing that I had a problem at school .
 
2012-10-20 09:56:33 AM  

Feral_and_Preposterous: I don't think a teacher should be allowed to spank my kid. But I think that a robot would be okay. The Spankbot 9000. They'd measure body fat and mass and calculate the proper force. If the kid's tough: it would increase the "pop" (noise factor) and "crack" (sting factors) by 5% each swing (until the proper amount of tears and blubbing erupt). It would incorporate lie-detecting tech so it wouldn't be fooled by any crocodile tears.

Also: during the robosmacking, a recording of James Earl Jones' voice would say, "This hurts me more than it does you," and, "I love you, but this is for your own good." If you struggle and cry before the first blow lands it'll say, "Why are you crying? I'll GIVE you something to CRY about!"


Awesome!
 
2012-10-20 09:58:13 AM  

Fark Me To Tears: Okay. Tell you what, parents. Those of you who think your little snowflakes should never be spanked will sign a document attesting to your promise to drop whatever you're doing and come to the school to pick up your child whenever he or she is behaving in a way that would warrant corporal punishment under school guidelines. No ifs, ands, or buts. If you fail to live up to this promise, your child will be expelled and you will be required to relocate to another school system at your expense. Otherwise, give us the power to properly discipline your child and STFU.


You do know that those times your father hit you in the face, that was actually child abuse? It's not normal to be treated that way.
 
2012-10-20 10:01:08 AM  

Gortex: DNRTFA, but I am a public school teacher (in Canada). If you have to resort to corporal discipline in your classroom, you're either unimaginative or just plain bad at your job. There are so many more effective ways to ge tthe kids to behave themselves, why would you bother doing something like spanking when it's so useless AND controversial?

That being said, I'm not against spanking. As a parent, I do see how there are some circumstances where an association with a given dangerous behaviour and "pain" might be effective (e.g. smacking your toddler on the butt if he gets too near a hot kettle). But those kinds of situations never come up in a school setting anyway.


Am probably gonna get flamed hard for this, and I really don't care, but the little assholes and biatches that like to treat other kids like shiat and beat them up SHOULD get their asses kicked. Boy or girl, doesn't matter. You wanna be a jerk? Have a taste of your own medicine and see how it feels.
 
2012-10-20 10:03:09 AM  
Which is why you cut off a finger when they screw up.
 
2012-10-20 10:07:52 AM  
People who treat spanking like child abuse annoy the shiat out of me...

/me eagerly signs on the dotted line
 
2012-10-20 10:09:27 AM  
Texas

6655321: Each pupil and situation should be examined and handled eeperately. Teachers,parents and cops are not always right. Neither are pupils and students. Physical action is just the easiest method.


Physical action is often the method that requires the least amount of judgement and / or critical thinking on the part of "officials".

Zero Tolerance policies make retrograde cavemen happy.
 
2012-10-20 10:10:32 AM  

orbister: Fark Me To Tears: Those of you who think your little snowflakes should never be spanked will sign a document attesting to your promise to drop whatever you're doing and come to the school to pick up your child whenever he or she is behaving in a way that would warrant corporal punishment under school guidelines. No ifs, ands, or buts. If you fail to live up to this promise, your child will be expelled and you will be required to relocate to another school system at your expense. Otherwise, give us the power to properly discipline your child and STFU.

Why should parents be expected to drop everything and run simply because the school can only think of one disciplinary policy?


Because the school has one job: To educate.

Making sure your child knows how to behave in a variety of social settings is the parents' job. Teachers have more important things to do than thinking up personalized plans on how to get your unruly kid to pipe down so the other two dozen kids can learn science and math. If you failed to properly instruct your kid in proper modes of behavior, then the school is going to take the shortest simplest method to insure your kid stops disrupting class: throw him out for you to deal with, or show Little Johnny that bad behavior in class hurts Even if he isn't the sharpest crayon in the box, he can learn to make that association.
 
2012-10-20 10:11:49 AM  
Oh, it's time for this thread again.

/Institute the Minnesota Spankalogical Protocol
 
2012-10-20 10:12:59 AM  

Coffee Snob: Here's an even easier program: touch my kid and I break your face. If he/she is a problem, take them out of class. I will discipline them when I bring them home.


Might I suggest homeschooling then?

Sometimes, timing is everything. You'd be amazed how effective a quick pat on the ass at school in front of their classmates- at the time of the offense-- to remind them that the classroom won't be a safe zone for acting out really is. Saves you the drive in, saves the kid the psychological drama of wondering what hells yu have in store when you do pick him up, saves a lot of class time not having to lose a student and teacher to the principle's office while she explains why it is necessary to call you in.

Catering to the individual needs of parents is both disruptive and time consuming. You send the wrong message to the child: that the the only one they need obey is the parent rather than the person in charge as they hold no authority over their actions.

I am not advocating a public sentence of paddling for wrong doing- only a situational reminder of who's in charge or what behavior will not be tolerated should other means fail.

You relinguish them to the teacher's care- let them have the means (within reason) to keep your kid in line.
 
2012-10-20 10:13:35 AM  
My district didn't have corporal punishment. When I was seven years old, I was goofing off with a friend instead of doing sign language along to Surfin' USA in music class (we invented our own signs - not obscene, just silly - and did them instead). The teacher came up behind me, grabbed me around the throat, dragged me to the front of the class, and shook me. She would also scream at this kid EVERY DAY for daring to pronounce his name the way it was actually pronouced instead of the way she said it should be. She mysteriously didn't return the next year after these things came to light.

I guess my perspective is if the only way you can discipline a second-grader is with violence, you're probably not even smart enough to teach them the goddamn alphabet.
 
2012-10-20 10:16:44 AM  

orbister: Fark Me To Tears: Those of you who think your little snowflakes should never be spanked will sign a document attesting to your promise to drop whatever you're doing and come to the school to pick up your child whenever he or she is behaving in a way that would warrant corporal punishment under school guidelines. No ifs, ands, or buts. If you fail to live up to this promise, your child will be expelled and you will be required to relocate to another school system at your expense. Otherwise, give us the power to properly discipline your child and STFU.

Why should parents be expected to drop everything and run simply because the school can only think of one disciplinary policy?


You're assuming that they haven't tried other means to get your kid in line.
 
2012-10-20 10:19:00 AM  

Maul555: People who treat spanking like child abuse annoy the shiat out of me...

/me eagerly signs on the dotted line


Then you should go to a calm clinic and get help with your anger issues. The glue's not quite dry inside your head.
 
2012-10-20 10:19:44 AM  
Spanking is not child abuse. If parents feel they need to smack their children to get a desired behavior, then they should be able to do so. However, as TEACHERS, we should be above that. I have never felt the need to hit a child in my class to maintain order and control. Like most teachers, I have training, education, and experience that provides me much better ways to manage challenging behaviors.
 
2012-10-20 10:22:22 AM  

zena: Spanking is not child abuse. If parents feel they need to smack their children to get a desired behavior, then they should be able to do so. However, as TEACHERS, we should be above that. I have never felt the need to hit a child in my class to maintain order and control. Like most teachers, I have training, education, and experience that provides me much better ways to manage challenging behaviors.


Don't know what state you are in zena but i live in Maine. There have been people that CPA has gone after for spanking who have gotten in big trouble for it. you see a story now and then in the paper bout it.
 
2012-10-20 10:22:54 AM  
It is a stone-cold FACT that the rise of students misbehaving in school directly corresponded with removal of teacher's ability to spank.

I was in school as it happened, and it happened almost immediately, and has only gotten worse from there.

Teachers used to have authority, and the means to enforce it. And kids stayed in line.

Then the first lawsuits for someone's poor little kid getting a bruise or two happened, and it went from where the teacher could just tear you up, to having to get another teacher to witness the spanking, to having only the assistant principal do it, to 3 licks only, to nothing.
 
2012-10-20 10:23:15 AM  

jumac: zena: Spanking is not child abuse. If parents feel they need to smack their children to get a desired behavior, then they should be able to do so. However, as TEACHERS, we should be above that. I have never felt the need to hit a child in my class to maintain order and control. Like most teachers, I have training, education, and experience that provides me much better ways to manage challenging behaviors.

Don't know what state you are in zena but i live in Maine. There have been people that CPA has gone after for spanking who have gotten in big trouble for it. you see a story now and then in the paper bout it.


opps didn't see my spelling error I ment CPS not CPA
 
2012-10-20 10:32:08 AM  

hasty ambush: If you were effectively dealing with your snowflake they would not need to call you. All removing the snowflake for the class accomplishes is teaching them that if they want to get out to class act up.

As you stated children are "petulant, impulsive and generally ruled by emotion" which means you may not be able to reason with them, that is why you spank. It is something their not fully developed frontal lobe mind understands.


Lol wut? In this context "getting out of class" does not mean they get to go outside and play, they sit in a boring room and then face embarrassment within their peer group.

I don't have kids, but I can tell you that if another adult hit my kid, I'd do exactly the same thing to them. Sending your kids to the public schools your taxes are paying for should not entitle anyone to discipline your children in a physical manner despite your disapproval.
 
2012-10-20 10:32:18 AM  
No.

But they should be able to defend themselves and restrain students when needed.
 
2012-10-20 10:34:19 AM  
Spanking, like war, should only be applied after all others forms of diplomacy have failed.

Schools do not need the headaches of whiny parents and injury lawsuits- let's take a breather here for a moment and assume all other resources to get your kid to behave have failed

Back when i was in school- paddling was reserved only for those who were really mouthy/ agressive contact after being reasoned and warned with, and play ground fights. There was no winner in a play ground fight.
 
2012-10-20 10:35:24 AM  
Pacfanweb, I would argue that the trend has nothing to do with the removal of corporal punishment. What you are seeing is the absence of parenting in general.
 
2012-10-20 10:35:26 AM  
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.
 
2012-10-20 10:38:22 AM  
Only if the teacher is female and attractive.

Seriously, we need more effective ways of teaching out children. Animals learn by playing, putting them way ahead of us in educational science.
 
2012-10-20 10:38:44 AM  
You only want to spank black children? That's racist
 
2012-10-20 10:41:21 AM  

hasty ambush: As you stated children are "petulant, impulsive and generally ruled by emotion" which means you may not be able to reason with them, that is why you spank. It is something their not fully developed frontal lobe mind understands.


Kids are indeed generally ruled by emotion, and while you can teach reason to an extent, you have to engage on the emotional front. However, you also have to understand that the lesson you think you're teaching isn't necessarily what they're learning.

Kids learn best if you model the behavior you want them to emulate. That means respecting them the way you want them to respect others. The only way to teach them to "hands off" is to _hands the hell off_. When you bully them into obeying you, they learn that to get their own way, they have to bully others.

And when you do that, you make my job much, much harder than it needs to be.
 
2012-10-20 10:42:24 AM  

dopekitty74: but the little assholes and biatches that like to treat other kids like shiat and beat them up SHOULD get their asses kicked.


What about the big ones?
 
2012-10-20 10:42:27 AM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: hasty ambush: If you were effectively dealing with your snowflake they would not need to call you. All removing the snowflake for the class accomplishes is teaching them that if they want to get out to class act up.

As you stated children are "petulant, impulsive and generally ruled by emotion" which means you may not be able to reason with them, that is why you spank. It is something their not fully developed frontal lobe mind understands.

Lol wut? In this context "getting out of class" does not mean they get to go outside and play, they sit in a boring room and then face embarrassment within their peer group.

I don't have kids, but I can tell you that if another adult hit my kid, I'd do exactly the same thing to them. Sending your kids to the public schools your taxes are paying for should not entitle anyone to discipline your children in a physical manner despite your disapproval.


Being removed from class meant farking around out in the hallway, making faces through the doorway to get other students to laugh, and if your removal was particularly spectacular- but not enough to get paddled-- you were elevated to celebrity status for the day. Definitely no shame about it though. What did suck was getting held in the classroom on recess (they don't have those any more) and having the teacher preside over the joint while you carried out your sentence.
 
2012-10-20 10:43:56 AM  

zena: I'm a teacher as well. Totally agree with Gortex. If you can't maintain control of your classroom without resorting to spanking, you probably should consider another profession. There are so many better ways to achieve the desired behavior.


Agreed. If you can get a child to stand still while you hit them, surely you should be able to get them to do whatever-it-is you wanted them to do in the first place?
 
2012-10-20 10:48:36 AM  

Pacfanweb: It is a stone-cold FACT that the rise of students misbehaving in school directly corresponded with removal of teacher's ability to spank.


Post hoc ergo propter hoc

"Post hoc ergo propter hoc, Latin for "after this, therefore because of this", is a logical fallacy (of the questionable cause variety) that states "Since that event followed this one, that event must have been caused by this one.""
 
2012-10-20 10:53:40 AM  
Interesting that what would be considered child abuse in one venue is legal and proper educational policy in another.
 
2012-10-20 10:54:23 AM  

hitlersbrain: Only if the teacher is female and attractive.

Seriously, we need more effective ways of teaching out children. Animals learn by playing, putting them way ahead of us in educational science.


This is about as dumb as saying the Iranians are sexually well adjusted as they have no homosexuality there.

Animals have a pecking order in which the weak are most often beaten and driven away. Ever notice that you don't see albino's in animal populations? It's not just that they suck at the art of camouflage and make an easy target at meal time, but more often, it is because the others drive them away so that they won't endanger the rest of the herd because of that difference.

I wouldn't use the "animals at play" model in regards to education unless your kid is truly one of the herd.
 
TWX
2012-10-20 10:54:48 AM  
I think that children need to learn, at a young age, that there are consequences for their inappropriate actions. If a child grows up to borderline-adulthood without such enforced constraints for when they chronically violate the rules, it's likely that the legal system will be their first exposure to actual punishment.

Spank 'em as children, when they've truly earned it, rather than letting the legal system spanking them as adults.
 
2012-10-20 10:59:32 AM  

clowncar on fire: Being removed from class meant farking around out in the hallway, making faces through the doorway to get other students to laugh, and if your removal was particularly spectacular- but not enough to get paddled-- you were elevated to celebrity status for the day. Definitely no shame about it though. What did suck was getting held in the classroom on recess (they don't have those any more) and having the teacher preside over the joint while you carried out your sentence.


What about detention?
i48.tinypic.com

Honestly, I don't remember many kids getting in trouble in my schools, but if they did, they didn't get any real celebrity status. Pretty much half the class wouldn't care, and the other half just thought they looked stupid for trying too hard to be cool.
 
2012-10-20 10:59:49 AM  
MooseUpNorth: Kids learn best if you model the behavior you want them to emulate. That means respecting them the way you want them to respect others. The only way to teach them to "hands off" is to _hands the hell off_. When you bully them into obeying you, they learn that to get their own way, they have to bully others.

And when you do that, you make my job much, much harder than it needs to be.


Perfectly said! We work so hard in our classroom to model good behavior, conflict resolution strategies, and cooperation. Sometimes it feels like a losing battle. Teachers need parents who are engaged, present, and committed to long-term solutions. I don't want a kid who behaves in the moment and only to avoid getting hit. I want kids to understand that a classroom (just like a society) needs rules to ensure everyone is able to participate in activities. We spend a lot of time working together to create guidelines for classroom behavior. We do this cooperatively several times a year. All class members get input, and we all sign our agreement. Kids tend to follow rules when they understand the reasons for them and when they have some ownership in their creation. 

Clear boundaries with logical consequences applied consistently prevent most behavior problems before they occur.
 
2012-10-20 11:01:14 AM  

clowncar on fire: I wouldn't use the "animals at play" model


You should. It works.
 
2012-10-20 11:06:02 AM  

Spad31:
Nope. I'll make sure he behaves in class. If he acts like a clown and needs to be removed, do it. Touch him and now we have a problem. If you're a teacher, you know children. They're like most of FARK; petulant, impulsive and generally ruled by emotion. You signed on as a teacher, you know these things. Deal with them appropriately and assume I, as the parent, want my kid respectful to you. He gives you grief, you call me. I'll deal with him at home. You don't get to hit my child.


Uh huh, and when your precious little snowflake physically refuses to get up out of his seat because you have taught him that actions have no consequences, then what?
 
2012-10-20 11:09:30 AM  

give me doughnuts: Because the school has one job: To educate.


What nice, neat boundaries you seem to draw around that word, eh?
 
Skr
2012-10-20 11:11:03 AM  
Always felt there is a difference between discipline and vindictive punishment. If you can discipline your kids without being emotionally vengeful, go for it. That doesn't seem possible for many, as they will punish for self gratification. Kids and animals grow, learn , and test boundaries... you need to be firm, swift, and most of all consistent to shape the little one into good behaviors.

That said, I'm not sure about letting teachers back into the corporeal punishment gig, that seems the territory of parents to me. A teacher doing it would be about causing shame in front of classmates and I've never been a fan of ostracizing children in such a fashion. It might work as a deterrent, but so would finding out the kid's real issues and getting them helped.
 
2012-10-20 11:11:53 AM  

Pacfanweb: It is a stone-cold FACT that the rise of students misbehaving in school directly corresponded with removal of teacher's ability to spank.


Did teachers regularly spank sixteen year olds?

Has the behaviour of sixteen year olds also deteriorated?
 
2012-10-20 11:17:26 AM  

StrangeQ: Uh huh, and when your precious little snowflake physically refuses to get up out of his seat because you have taught him that actions have no consequences, then what?


I dunno... he stays in his seat? Or is it "the world comes to an end?"
 
2012-10-20 11:18:04 AM  

MooseUpNorth: clowncar on fire: I wouldn't use the "animals at play" model

You should. It works.


Not really. Nature is eat or be eaten. Animal play establishes the pecking order which will determine later whether you are the hunter or the prey. To give the herd the hunter's edge/ ability to stand up against the hunters- the weak are usually driven away.

Not what i want for my child. If a pat on the ass is all it takes to get her attention/focus, so be it.
 
2012-10-20 11:24:50 AM  
Do kids need to get smacked every now and then? Yes. There is definitely a place for corporal punishment. That said, if the first way to discipline your child is to smack him or spank him, you're doing it wrong. My father (despite being a utter jackass aside) had a good system of punishment - he'd warn his children once to not do something and then he'd whap them or punish them in some other non-physical way. Sometimes, you simply need to talk to your children, other times, they need to get hit.

However, once they're teens, you have to consider them to be utterly irrational adults, an no, no teen boy with any considerable strength is going to let you paddle him. Yes, you actually have to talk with your children and get to know them.

That said, your job is to turn them into responsible (or at least resourceful) adults. They can like you after them move out of your house.
 
2012-10-20 11:25:10 AM  

zena: I want kids to understand that a classroom (just like a society) needs rules to ensure everyone is able to participate in activities.


It's not so much "needs rules" as much as helping kids experience (and value) community. For someone who values community, 'the rules' are just the bookkeeping that helps everybody know what to expect (and what is expected of them).

This was really hammered home to me a few years ago when we were lining up after an afternoon theatrical performance in the gym. This kid's end-of-day activity was in the gym, but everybody was lining up to return to class for dismissal. And the theater group was getting ready to tear down the set. He comes to me and explains the problem, concluding quietly (but clearly very unsettled): "... and I don't know what to do."

Most kids fall apart when they're pulled too far out of what should be routine. When they know something's expected of them, but not what. (Most classroom misbehavior is rooted in that sort of anxiety.) I knew all of this intellectually, but I didn't truly get it until that moment.

/ Yes, I reassured him. He returned to class with us for the _outdoor_ activities admin had planned for that gorgeous afternoon.
 
2012-10-20 11:25:47 AM  
When I was in elementary school, hell yes. Teachers and parents were adults who shared a common sense of right and wrong.

Today?

Read Fark regularly.
 
2012-10-20 11:26:15 AM  
This will lead to more and more spanking fetish videos.
 
2012-10-20 11:29:11 AM  
Time asks if it is all right for teachers to spank your little monkey

Izzat anything like whippin' your skippy?
 
2012-10-20 11:32:24 AM  

clowncar on fire: Not really.


I'm sorry, and I don't know how to say this nicely, but you're simply wrong. Everything a kid does is play. (Adults do it too, but we mostly have that burned out of us by the time we enter the workforce.)

Yes, you can regimentalize learning and get them to remember stuff (mostly by-rote learning), but if you want them to _understand_ something, they have to _experience_ it. Kids experience emotionally. That means engaging them through play (or through trauma). Reason is a good thing, but reason develops late, and it must be learned.
 
2012-10-20 11:32:30 AM  
We got The Cane,


operachic.typepad.com 

Of course without caning we would have never had this masterpiece.

www.planet13.com.au



Are you feeling OK? Time to go. Are you feeling OK? Time to go. Are you feeling OK? Time to go.

Call the schoolmaster!

I always said he'd come to no good
In the end your honor.
If they'd let me have my way I could
Have flayed him into shape.
But my hands were tied,
The bleeding hearts and artists
Let him get away with laughter.
Let me hammer him today?
 
2012-10-20 11:44:38 AM  

Clemkadidlefark: Teachers and parents were adults who shared a common sense of right and wrong.


This, fundamentally, is what's needed. Although among the list of "rights", valuing education is pretty much at the top of the list. I've never done this in a controlled setting (so grain of salt it), but by casual observation, there appears to be a strong correlation between parents who value knowledge and kids who value knowledge. It's the same in literacy. If you want kids who read well, read to them. Read with them. And not just when they're very young.

/ Middle schoolers won't admit it if asked, but they secretly _love_ to be read to. 'Literacy nights', where we'd spread mats, cushions and cozy chairs in the gym while teachers and parents would read kids books to them for a couple hours... Very strong showing among the 7th and 8th graders, who were generally excellent with the younger kids. Most would come in PJs.
 
2012-10-20 11:45:00 AM  
All the people on here screaming "you dont get to discipline my kids, I do," are the parents of the shiatheads the rest of us have to deal with because they don't discipline their kids. These people also tend to be the ones that insists society come together as a whole in order to look after the well being of each other; pay for health coverage, welfare, school, etc. We are all in this together, but holy fark, if you correct their child because he/she is acting outside the acceptable behavioral boundaries of said society, you've crossed the line
 
2012-10-20 11:46:46 AM  
In my day, teachers could spank us. However, the principal would also stop by the house periodically just to check in. So there was a level of trust that doesn't exist in my kids schools. Their admins just run a petty fiefdom, and the principal was a biatch. Power tripping assholes don't get to spank my kids. Sorry.
 
2012-10-20 12:10:23 PM  

Gortex: DNRTFA, but I am a public school teacher (in Canada)...There are so many more effective ways to ge tthe kids to behave themselves,


zena: I'm a teacher as well...There are so many better ways to get kids to behave.


I am a person who would never in a million years be a parent OR a teacher, but I am honestly curious if you could give us (me) some examples of these more effective ways to get kids to behave.

A friend of mine is a teacher in a poor, urban middle school and it is fraught with behavior problems. We are both at a loss about what the next course of action should be.
 
2012-10-20 12:12:58 PM  
Great...first the teacher's sleep with the kids, now they want to introduce them to S&M.

/at least it's not furries.
 
2012-10-20 12:22:25 PM  
Spanking is barbaric. It should never be used as punishment in school.

I prefer a taser, duct tape to a chair and a dunce cap.

/Oddly enough, I only need to do this once or twice in a year.
 
2012-10-20 12:24:21 PM  

Gdalescrboz: All the people on here screaming "you dont get to discipline my kids, I do," are the parents of the shiatheads the rest of us have to deal with because they don't discipline their kids. These people also tend to be the ones that insists society come together as a whole in order to look after the well being of each other; pay for health coverage, welfare, school, etc. We are all in this together, but holy fark, if you correct their child because he/she is acting outside the acceptable behavioral boundaries of said society, you've crossed the line


One of the biggest advocates of the idea that parent and not the school should use spank the kid that I have seen is a relative who running for the U.S. Congress right now. I strongly suspect what the school would do would be mild in comparison.

---------------

Might I point out that I am not aware of too many people who say "spare the rod and spoil the child" who even dream of using anything remotely like what I would consider a rod. It is amazing how many people who say they are for the Bible never really practice what it really says. Most use their hand. A few will use a belt on rare occasions. And a tiny fraction might use a very thin stick. If you used a cane on a kid today, you will certainly get signs of disapproval if not an actual visit from child welfare services.

/I wonder the Bible said "Spare the cat o' nine tail...." if people was still cite it for spanking and be horrified by a rod even though the cat is even worse.
 
2012-10-20 12:37:49 PM  

Arthurgoboom: I am a person who would never in a million years be a parent OR a teacher, but I am honestly curious if you could give us (me) some examples of these more effective ways to get kids to behave.


Just so we're clear that despite the marketing, there are no magic solutions. Each kid is different. Each circumstance is different, and discipline generally needs to be tailored to the child, not the child to the discipline.

I have kids who need (crave, really) to be dominated through personality and/or force of will. Others who are very sensitive who respond best to a more gentle persistence. Others only fall apart when they don't know what they should be doing. More than one kid I've had (with tempers) would follow me around like a puppy (given the chance) because I show them what they so rarely receive outside of my classroom environment: kindness and respect.

That said:

There are some good ideas in this book.

Artie Kohn speaks a lot of truth, too, and has shaped my approach with kids (understanding their behavior in terms of need) although his advice is less practicable to a classroom.

There's some application for Phelan's 1-2-3 Magic/Correct.

Keep in mind that all three authors flatly contradict each other, but what I've found effective is in limited application of 1-2-3 Magic, but mostly operating using Moresh's advice, with Kohn providing the big picture.

A friend of mine is a teacher in a poor, urban middle school and it is fraught with behavior problems. We are both at a loss about what the next course of action should be.

The bad news is that no one teacher or parent can fix what is ultimately a community problem, and certainly not quickly. Still, Moresh claims results with school-wide discipline programs (but warns that school-wide cultural 'change' takes three years to effect).
 
2012-10-20 12:47:16 PM  
Back when I was in elementary school (late 80s) all of our teachers kept paddles displayed on the wall above their desks. If you acted up, they took you into the hall, sometimes made you pull your pants down (if you were wearing jeans or other thicker clothing), and swung away. None of the classes had doors on them so all the rooms in the area could hear every whack. That entire section of the school would get eerily quiet for a while after that. My 5th grade teacher was particularly proud of his paddle, as it had the most holes drilled in it and would therefore cause the most pain. Looking back - It was pretty farked up :p
 
2012-10-20 12:52:33 PM  
"There isn't a single study that shows kids' behavior gets better over time," says Elizabeth Gershoff, an associate professor of human development and family sciences at the University of Texas at Austin. "Every study I've looked at that links parent spanking and kids' aggression found that the more kids are spanked, the more aggressive and problematic their behavior is."."

I both agree and disagree.

Beating the krap out of your kid on a regular basis does more harm than good. Spanking occasionally for serious infractions does a lot of good. Spanking only does good up to a certain age, then it does more harm than good.

My folks rarely spanked me, but when they did it enforced the fact that what I had done was wrong, no matter what I thought and the pain made me think twice about doing it again. I was never beaten, just spanked.

A young kid, told time and time again not to mess with that pretty glass vase, is going to mess with it and explaining why he should not do it goes in one ear and out the other. Even if it's put up high to get it out of easy reach, the bugger will stack up chairs to reach it.

The implications become two-fold then: danger to the kid and to the vase. However, a sharp smack on the butt when he gets caught drives the meaning home with pain, something he'll remember better than words.

Now, remember, a spanking doesn't leave bruises. If it does, you're beating the kid. Usually it consists of two or three open handed slaps across the arse or a slap on the hand. That is usually followed by a secondary punishment, like being sent to their room or a privilege being temporarily denied.

We've all seen those funny home video's where toddlers climb out of their cribs in the middle of the night, barely escaping a brain damaging fall, or the little f**k climbs over a high child proof barrier you installed in a hall and waddles down to get into Mommy's expensive makeup, 'decorating' not only himself but the room or 'helping' daddy paint by painting over the furniture -- and for good measure, slapping a coat on little brother.

Spanking is called for there because talking is not going to sink in. Especially in the authority testing terrible twos.

Come puberty, then spanking doesn't do much good but a controlled slap across the face or shoulder can make a point sink in much faster, like when your kid tells you he's going to a party whether you agree or not.

Spanking then is replaced with yelling when rational conversation fails -- which it often will during that age. Puberty is not for the weak.

Notice I indicated spanking and not beating. If you're wailing away at your kids but like trying to start a chain saw, then you're doing it wrong. Kids that were beaten rather than spanked, in my first hand observation, tended to be more aggressive and rebellious.

I lived about a mile away from a large 'red neck' community. (White Trash.) Parents there had no problem punching their kids out, smacking them with belts, switches and 2X4's and a boy wasn't 'grown' or 'haired over' until he could take on the old man in a (usually) drunken fist fight.

On a side note, I observed that kids raised there tended to be more combative, ready to fight, enjoyed fighting and developed a high pain tolerance. Many also used to discuss problems and bad things the kids did during meal time -- something I never approved of. Some suppers could become shouting matches.

That caused assorted eating problems down the line. Your meal time should be a relaxing period -- which includes Mom and Dad not growling at each other in front of the kids over bills.

However, reaching across the table and swatting your kid across the head because he won't stop poking his brother with his fork is acceptable.

Corporal punishment, IMO, is necessary when combined with verbal communication.

Then again, in my family we kids had chores. Like Mom fixed the meal and we ate when Dad came home from work. Us kids cleared the table, washed and dried the dishes and put them away, then emptied the garbage. Often, we helped set the table.

For you who have no idea whatinthehell I'm talking about, it used to be traditional for a family to eat together around a table, at the same time with mom and dad claiming the end or 'head' positions. Real forks, plates and dishes were used. Those had to be washed afterwards. Homes rarely had mechanical dishwashers.
 
2012-10-20 01:22:02 PM  
I was beaten really bad by a teacher in 3rd. grade so much I was begging for her to stop.
I realize the situation, it was a time of desegregation imposed by President Carter and this black woman was having a fun time beating on a white boy.
I think the teacher went way out of bounds.

With that said, I still do believe in corporal punishment (getting the paddle), but by supervised effort. Not one person left alone to do the bidding.
Same 3rd grade, I didn't hear the bell and stayed playing outside. The principal gave me one for that. That was reasonable.

The biatch who beat me desereved a beating herself.
And although I believe it was racially motivated, I am not against black people because of it.
 
2012-10-20 01:24:49 PM  
I had to deal with enough physical abuse and the like in my home, to have to put up with it at school would have sucked. School was my only escape. I had no disciplinary issues in school. If my teachers had believed in corporal punishment, I probably would have killed myself. So no, I disagree with spanking by school staff. Find a better way to get kids to behave.
 
2012-10-20 01:25:56 PM  

indarwinsshadow: Maul555: People who treat spanking like child abuse annoy the shiat out of me...

/me eagerly signs on the dotted line

Then you should go to a calm clinic and get help with your anger issues. The glue's not quite dry inside your head.


You annoy me too...
 
2012-10-20 01:41:00 PM  
Confederacy
upload.wikimedia.org
Corporal punishment legality in public schools
upload.wikimedia.org
Latest presidential election polling
www.electoral-vote.com
 
2012-10-20 01:54:14 PM  
Why yes absolutely she can spank my....Oh that monkey. Yeah I guess.
 
2012-10-20 02:01:23 PM  

Rik01:
For you who have no idea whatinthehell I'm talking about, it used to be traditional for a family to eat together around a table, at the same time with mom and dad claiming the end or 'head' positions. Real forks, plates and dishes were used. Those had to be washed afterwards. Homes rarely had mechanical dishwashers.

Oddly, that is exactly how we were raised in my deeply religious, tee-totaling, Scottish Covenanter come immigrant farmer come Baptist come union coalminer redneck family.

 
2012-10-20 04:07:55 PM  
Sorry pro-corporal-punishment-in-schools crowd, the people who would be administering this punishment have demonstrated a thorough inability to handle power. They need LESS power, not more.

Those of you in favor of corporal punishment in schools do realize that this would quite likely mean paddling:
a 6 year old because he had a plastic butter knife that was placed in his lunch by his parents,
an 11 year old who in brings in SPENT (as in empty, inert) shotgun shells to show from a camping trip
a 15 year old who chews energy gum and shares it with friends
a 13 year old who brings ibuprofen with her to help with menstrual cramps


School administrators continue to push the "are you farking kidding me?" meter to new heights every couple of months. Take all of the idiocy we've read about and replace suspension with paddling and you should see why school personnel cannot be trusted with that kind of power.
 
2012-10-20 04:30:15 PM  
Sounds like a lot of you are lazy parents or childless dickwads. I never had to spank my kids, the school never had to spank my kids, and they're honor students with no problems.

My WIFE, on the other hand...
/just kidding honey
 
2012-10-20 04:51:50 PM  
Ninny Smartest
Funniest
2012-10-20 01:24:49 PM


I had to deal with enough physical abuse and the like in my home, to have to put up with it at school would have sucked. School was my only escape. I had no disciplinary issues in school. If my teachers had believed in corporal punishment, I probably would have killed myself. So no, I disagree with spanking by school staff. Find a better way to get kids to behave.


I feel your pain man. I got an infection after I had my wisdom teeth removed because the dontor didnt sew the hole up in one corner of my mouth. Im just glad I didn't get an infection every time i went to school or I would have killed myself. So no, I disagree with dentists removing teeth. We have to think of another way to deal with teeth that are too big for our mouths, we can't keep going to dentists.
 
2012-10-20 07:27:15 PM  
More parents need to spank their kids. It shouldn't be your first option for punishment but sometimes the little shiats need their asses tanned
 
2012-10-20 11:31:36 PM  

ghare: Sounds like a lot of you are lazy parents or childless dickwads. I never had to spank my kids, the school never had to spank my kids, and they're honor students with no problems.

My WIFE, on the other hand...
/just kidding honey


I've heard she needs a good spanking! ;)
 
2012-10-21 12:50:25 AM  

Ummon: More parents need to spank their kids. It shouldn't be your first option for punishment but sometimes the little shiats need their asses tanned


A comparison of crime rates in 1960 to those in 2000 would seem to imply that fewer kids being spanked, and less often has led to significantly lower crime rates.
 
2012-10-21 03:44:34 AM  
Subby here. I absolutely support spanking as a parenting tool. There is a right way and wrong way to handle it. Handled correctly - its not abuse at all - IMO quite the opposite.

It should never be the first choice, but if all other options fail and the child refuses to behave after repeated warnings etc - then do it.

But never hit a child when you are angry. Only ever do it out of love - and explain after all is said and done that you do NOT want to do that but they left you with no choice. The important thing is to let them know that if all else fails and they won't listen, its an option "on the table." That way, you will very rarely ever have to actually use it.

Before people ask - yes I was spanked and I thank my parents for it. I think it adjusted my attitude early enough in life to make me a much better person. My best friend(who opposes spanking) never was disciplined in this manor and quite frankly its was always clear that his mother could never control him growing up. His upbringing definitely leaves something to be desired IMO.

Believe me - if anyone needed a good swatting as a kid it was him and he never got one. To this day he is very stubborn about following simple laws where he should know better, or listening to his bosses etc. He is completely mal-adjusted towards listening to anyone telling him to do what he does not want to do. He has almost no impulse control. That is probably why he spent the last 4 years on my couch even when we are both almost 31 years old.

These things I learned early on as a very young child. Spanking helped. Learning may not be the operative word actually. As a child - especially as a toddler - the brain is still developing/wiring. This early wiring is essential. You need to get it right. Children need to understand that they will at times need to yield to authority figures or there are consequences. They need to learn impulse control. They need to learn to be less self-centered.

He didn't learn these things as a young child and even as he understands them on a logical level, he struggles with them even now. His mother completely failed him with her new-age way of raising children.

People forget some things. Human are animals that happen to be more logical than other animals - but very young children more closely resemble animals than logical humans on a mental level. They will some times need dealt with the same way animals in a pack do - they need to be taught that they are not the alpha in your group. The parent leads. This is the way to teach them - a way they will instinctively understand.

Spanking has fallen far out of fashion - at least it has here in IL where I live. The results are obvious. Brats totally out of control everywhere. You can see the generational differences clearly.

Those who think its abuse seem to me to always fall into 1 of 2 categories(far more often the 2nd).
1. Those who had parents with anger issues(which is a totally separate issue from spanking). Thus their parents did not use spanking in a responsible, loving manor.
2. Those who have never been spanked. These people are talking from a position of complete ignorance and imagination - pretending they even know what it is like to be spanked.

I don't know anyone who has had a parent who will spank - reasonably and correctly - who thinks spanking is wrong.

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Fark your implication. Correlation does not imply causation. I am a pretty darn left leaning guy on most issues. Yet I stand with spanking. I definitely stand against laws that would tell a parent how to raise their child. Next they will pass a law against time out because its just so abusive. I mean if a child cries as a result and has their feelings hurt it will cause emotional damage etc etc etc. Yeah that sounds ridiculous but people who think spanking is abuse seem pretty ridiculous to me.

That is one of those problems with passing laws based off your beliefs. I don't think anti-spanking laws are so different from theology base laws that Conservatives want to pass (or have). They think abortion is wrong - and therefore MUST outlaw it. You think spanking is wrong - and therefore MUST outlaw it. Why can't people who dislike abortions simply JUST NOT GET ABORTIONS and those who oppose spanking simply JUST NOT SPANK YOUR OWN KIDS? You could look at so many subjects this way.

Don't like gay marriage? OK then, don't get married to someone of the same sex - leave other people to make that choice themselves. Don't like contraception? Don't use it. Think drugs are bad? Don't do drugs and drop the monumental disaster called the "War on Drugs." Don't like porn - you're a liar but just say you don't watch it and leave me alone. ETC ETC. Your beliefs of right and wrong do not need to be shoved down everyone else's throats.

The behaviors that need to be outlawed are those that cause verifiable harm to others. That is all. Imagine how much more free we could be if laws where judged by that metric.
 
2012-10-21 06:26:47 AM  

bk3k: But never hit a child when you are angry. Only ever do it out of love ...

Yeah that sounds ridiculous but people who think spanking is abuse seem pretty ridiculous to me.


People who think that it is acceptable deliberately and calmly to inflict pain on a child and then tell them you're doing it "out of love" don't just seem ridiculous to me. They seem downright creepy. I find it far easier to understand someone who hits a child in the heat of the moment than someone who is capable of calming down, reflecting and then dispassionately hitting them.

Would you hit a sixteen year old in this way, or would it have to be someone small enough for you to overpower?

Why can't people who dislike abortions simply JUST NOT GET ABORTIONS and those who oppose spanking simply JUST NOT SPANK YOUR OWN KIDS? You could look at so many subjects this way.

Indeed you could. Against child rape? Don't rape children. Against lynching black people? Don't lynch black people? Against flying aircraft into skyscrapers? Don't fly aircraft into skyscrapers. How dare these godless liberals enforce their own hippy beliefs on everyone else, eh?
 
2012-10-21 10:33:39 AM  

orbister: bk3k: But never hit a child when you are angry. Only ever do it out of love ...

Yeah that sounds ridiculous but people who think spanking is abuse seem pretty ridiculous to me.


People who think that it is acceptable deliberately and calmly to inflict pain on a child and then tell them you're doing it "out of love" don't just seem ridiculous to me. They seem downright creepy. I find it far easier to understand someone who hits a child in the heat of the moment than someone who is capable of calming down, reflecting and then dispassionately hitting them.

Would you hit a sixteen year old in this way, or would it have to be someone small enough for you to overpower?

Oh noes! A child must feel a little pain! We must work hard to ensure that a child never experiences what pain feels like until they become adults. Don't spank them. Don't let them play(its dangerous and they could get HURT). In fact lets just duck tape them to a chair to make sure they never get hurt.

The pain is temporary. As for age - a parent who spanks isn't going to need to do it to an older child. I don't think me or my 3 younger brothers ever needed to get spanked past 4-5 years old and very rarely on the upper end. As we age, more logical thinking sets in. Plus we had learned behavior.

We understood actions have consequences - one of the possible consequences could be spanking. We also where made to understand and care that our actions affected those around us. We where not the kids you always see now throwing tantrums in the store(while there parents do NOTHING). Our parents had a much easier time taking their 4 boys in public than many do with only 1. Even as a small child I could see the contrast.

I never thought that my parents hated me for getting spanked. They coupled the spanking with explanation. Its called "parenting" - you might look the term up.

You sound like a gigantic wimp frankly. Its not bullying - its not about feeling "powerful" through physical domination over your child. Its about correcting behavior early enough. Learned behavior in early life becomes hard to overcome later in life. But early in life - logic really does not reach children. They operate mostly on animal instinct and this is one thing they DO instinctively understand.

It also provides a sharp contrast when coupled with positive reinforcement. Most of the time, you will be doing good for your child. This time, you are causing them a little pain. They will understand that something has caused this change in behavior from you and will more easily get that their behavior is unacceptable in a way that words alone cannot at that age.

orbister:
Why can't people who dislike abortions simply JUST NOT GET ABORTIONS and those who oppose spanking simply JUST NOT SPANK YOUR OWN KIDS? You could look at so many subjects this way.

Indeed you could. Against child rape? Don't rape children. Against lynching black people? Don't lynch black people? Against flying aircraft into skyscrapers? Don't fly aircraft into skyscrapers. How dare these godless liberals enforce their own hippy beliefs on everyone else, eh?

Conveniently ignoring my last 2nd to last which puts to rest all your examples - The behaviors that need to be outlawed are those that cause verifiable harm to others.

Rape, lynching, and bad piloting cause harm to other people.

 
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