Do you have adblock enabled?
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Reuters)   This will end well: Nissan is introducing a "steer by wire" so you can crash while trying to reboot your car   (reuters.com) divider line 125
    More: Stupid, Cuban Missile Crisis, cold-war, Air France Flight 447, Infiniti, car companies, reboot, wires, engine control unit  
•       •       •

6999 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Oct 2012 at 4:20 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



125 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Last | Show all
 
2012-10-17 05:12:12 PM  

LoneVVolf: "Under the new system, the driver's intentions are transmitted more quickly to the wheels because of the quick speed of electronic signals"

Because people are always complaining about how long it takes rotational input to travel from one end of a steering shaft to the other?


Yeah, that's what I was thinking, too.
 
2012-10-17 05:13:13 PM  
I'd like to drive using a game controller or a keyboard...
 
2012-10-17 05:13:54 PM  

ChadM89: I like the by-wire idea when everything's working right.

I don't like the idea of a car that, if the battery's dead, I can't turn the front wheels.


I'm not too concerned. I am sure that there is triple redundancy built in with its own battery backup system that is constantly monitored. Sure it can fail, but you are probably more likely to crash due to a tire blow out than a failure of a system like this i'd believe.
 
2012-10-17 05:15:19 PM  
There seems to be some confusion here with terminology. Allow me to clear some things up. What some people seem to think is drive by wire in existing cars is actually electric assist power steering. Instead of a messy hydraulic assisted steering gear there's an electric motor attached to your steering shaft that helps out with rotating. The new ones are pretty good at being variable assistive to give a good road feel. Still has a mechanical connection to the wheels so if the electrics go out you can still muscle the wheel to steer.

Steer by wire takes the mechanical connection out of the system and the steering wheel becomes a rotational sensor that sends a signal to a box that controls the steering mechanism. Lose power and you're SOL.
 
2012-10-17 05:19:16 PM  

Loki009: ChadM89: I like the by-wire idea when everything's working right.

I don't like the idea of a car that, if the battery's dead, I can't turn the front wheels.

I'm not too concerned. I am sure that there is triple redundancy built in with its own battery backup system that is constantly monitored. Sure it can fail, but you are probably more likely to crash due to a tire blow out than a failure of a system like this i'd believe.


Also its not a new idea. Another random SAAB factoid is that they were working on this back in 1993. Complete with elimination of the steering wheel with a joystick instead.

1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-10-17 05:19:47 PM  

Loki009: / the first SAAB had those front wheel wells, was awesome for aerodynamics
// driving in the snow would cause ice pack along the sides until you couldn't steer anymore
/// Yes SAAB's were actually designed by airplane designers back then
//// less than 1/3rd the design team had a driver's license when they designed the prototype


I think I remember seeing something about that on a Top Gear segment a while back.

/I think that it was TG, anyways
 
2012-10-17 05:20:49 PM  
Will there be a "Ctrl Alt Delete"?
 
2012-10-17 05:21:07 PM  

Millennium: TFA: Under the new system, the driver's intentions are transmitted more quickly to the wheels because of the quick speed of electronic signals, Asai said.

Color me skeptical that electronic signals move appreciably faster than the physical information of the movement of a rigid body. Obviously they're unlikely to be appreciably slower, either; I merely question the concept of the difference being anything other than negligible. Steer-by-wire is a solution in search of a problem.


I suspect the problem they are solving has more to do with making it cheaper to put the wheel on the left vs the right side of the car.

As far as steering loss goes... I don't really have any high ground to yell from, since I drive an Intrepid.
 
2012-10-17 05:21:26 PM  
Drive by wire rally cross racing!

NOT
 
2012-10-17 05:23:27 PM  
Has anyone mentioned how the design has a mechanical backup for the unlikely event that the power fails?
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2012-10-17 05:24:07 PM  
The article says there will be a clutch you can engage to provide a mechanical connection while you debug the steering computer.

$ strctl engage manual
Error: Manual steering setting conflicts with currently selected steer by wire mode.
$ strctl down sbw
Error: No such subsystem sbw.
$ strctl down tbw
Turn by wire subsystem disabled.
Warning: Front wheels are currently free.
$ strctl engage manual
You have selected manual steering mode. Please read and agree to the following:
Nissan and its subsidiaries, collectively referred to as "Nissan", have
agreed to provide you with a manual steering feature. In manual steering
mode the car will not automatically change direction. It is your responsibility
to guide the car safely. You agree that you will obey all traffic laws.
You agree that you will not use this vehicle to commit any illegal or
tortious act. You agree that you will indemnify and hold harmless Nissan
for any damage resulting from your use of the car in manual steering mode.
You agree that improper use of manual steering mode may result in serious
injury or death to you, an occupant of the car, or any other person, and
such injury or death will be your sole responsibility. This car contains
substances known to the state of California to cause cancer. You acknowledge
that if involved in a collision within the state of California, such substances
may be released. You agree to indemnify and hold harmless Nissan for any
cancer or other injury you or any other person suffers as a result of release
of such chemicals. You further agree that this is a summary of the complete
terms of service of the manual steering option. The complete legal agreement
is found on the Nissan web site. You agree to be bound by that agreement as
if included in full here.

Do you agree to the above contract? (Y/N)
 
2012-10-17 05:25:51 PM  
I know people always break out the lack of feedback argument whenever drive-by-wire is mentioned, but I don't really understand why.

1. It would be quite easy to give force feedback through a decent servo motor.

2. I don't believe I actually use the feedback from the tires to steer. In fact, sometimes the feedback makes going straight harder with all the ruts in the road around here.

I think ChadM89, whose post I just noticed wins the argument forever. I still want a joystick to control my car, though!

ChadM89: I like the by-wire idea when everything's working right.

I don't like the idea of a car that, if the battery's dead, I can't turn the front wheels.

 
2012-10-17 05:27:31 PM  

Current Resident: Pffft. Pontiac was toying around with that back in '87.

[images.hemmings.com image 700x478]


Wtf, how would that car turn? Wouldn't the front wheels grind into the covering on the side there as soon as you turned the wheel at all?
 
2012-10-17 05:30:06 PM  

Abner Doon: Wtf, how would that car turn? Wouldn't the front wheels grind into the covering on the side there as soon as you turned the wheel at all?


It did somehow. And it was a four-wheel steer deal, to boot.
 
2012-10-17 05:34:51 PM  

Enemabag Jones: minoridiot
Most apirplanes made today are "fly by wire" so this isn't new technology, but what concerns me is the statment: "Drivers can also man oeuvre cars more easily as the system cuts out what it deems as unnecessary feedback from the tires to the driver." I wonder what sort of feedback they will cut out. We all use the feedback from the road and tires to help us steer through traffic.

I thought Toyota Camrys already had technology.



My 2006 gas pedal is drive by wire. Went from a 1995 to an '06. Have to admit at first it felt a little weird, but I got used to it.
 
2012-10-17 05:37:04 PM  
Steer by Wire?

They'll just email me some bull....
 
2012-10-17 05:38:22 PM  

Current Resident: Abner Doon: Wtf, how would that car turn? Wouldn't the front wheels grind into the covering on the side there as soon as you turned the wheel at all?

It did somehow. And it was a four-wheel steer deal, to boot.


Bizarre. Wish car companies could bring stuff like that to market. That looks cool as hell, especially considering that it's from the '80s.
 
2012-10-17 05:38:41 PM  

Lev_Astov: I know people always break out the lack of feedback argument whenever drive-by-wire is mentioned, but I don't really understand why.

1. It would be quite easy to give force feedback through a decent servo motor.

2. I don't believe I actually use the feedback from the tires to steer. In fact, sometimes the feedback makes going straight harder with all the ruts in the road around here.


Realistic force feedback is not a trivial problem. And force feedback isn't just bumps. It's how easy the wheel is to turn, which depends on the road surface conditions. If all of a sudden my steering goes really light, I know I'm on ice. Or something else bad is happening. Mud feels different from dirt, etc.
 
2012-10-17 05:40:04 PM  
I can see some benefits to this, for example you could quicken the steering at slow speeds and slow it at high speeds. When you're going 70 down the freeway you don't need to make large movements in the wheel.

Also, what if you never had to adjust your alignment again? Want to zero your steering? Just position your wheel where you think the resting position should be, hit a button and boom, your steering is zeroed. You could adjust your alignment as easily as you adjust your power mirrors from the comfort of your seat.

It would also be possible to compensate for things like understeer or skidding dynamically. And finally what about different steering characteristics for different driving styles? Maybe grandma likes very slow steering with zero feedback, while junior likes quick, racecar like steering with lots of force feedback.
 
2012-10-17 05:42:58 PM  
facepalm

all of you who are posting "my car has had this since XX" are not to bright. there is a big difference between:

- Drive by Wire (which is throttle and brake control)

and

- Steer by Wire (which is directional control)

currently there are NO production autos with Steer by Wire. the greatest concern I have is that there is NO redundancy like there is in aircraft (miltary aircraft can have as much as 4-times redundancy, with commercial aircraft having at least an additional redundant system).

there is a difference.
 
2012-10-17 05:43:47 PM  
The bluetooth connection will allow you to hijack -by-wire the car next to you.
 
2012-10-17 05:47:58 PM  
images2.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2012-10-17 05:48:11 PM  

child_god: LoneVVolf: "Under the new system, the driver's intentions are transmitted more quickly to the wheels because of the quick speed of electronic signals"

Because people are always complaining about how long it takes rotational input to travel from one end of a steering shaft to the other?

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, too.


I thought that too and then remembered some cars still use a steering box, even if the car has rack and pinion you still have the hydraulic assist to add to the lag or feeling of lag. Not that I think current steering is unresponsive, I just think it is very possible this could be noticeably more so, my big concern would be feedback or lack of it.
 
2012-10-17 05:48:21 PM  

LSinLV: the greatest concern I have is that there is NO redundancy like there is in aircraft (miltary aircraft can have as much as 4-times redundancy, with commercial aircraft having at least an additional redundant system).

there is a difference.


The system has a clutch and will default to mechanical steering if there are any problems.
 
2012-10-17 05:51:10 PM  

Current Resident: Pffft. Pontiac was toying around with that back in '87.

[images.hemmings.com image 700x478]


How... how can the wheels turn on that thing?
 
2012-10-17 05:51:18 PM  

PanicMan:
Realistic force feedback is not a trivial problem. And force feedback isn't just bumps. It's how easy the wheel is to turn, which depends on the road surface conditions. If all of a sudden my steering goes really light, I know I'm on ice. Or something else bad is happening. Mud feels different from dirt, etc.


Simbin and several other high end 'race sim' software houses already have their heads wrapped around simulating accurate force feedback with high end race-sim controllers. Hell with my Logitech G wheel I can tell when I'm up on the candy stripes, hanging a wheel in the grass, pushing the front, or getting chatter as I approach the edge of lock under braking. Simbin's GTR even goes as far to give me that same sick floppy snow-plow feeling as I'm trying to get my ass out of a gravel trap that I've felt IRL.

I'd imagine car mfgrs won't bother reinventing the wheel (hah) and will probably just use existing race-sim force feedback as a starting point for true fly-by-wire steering input.
 
2012-10-17 05:59:58 PM  

FrancoFile: Four engineers are driving down the road when the engine starts running rough. They start arguing about the cause.
The ChE says "We've got a fuel problem; we need to drain the tank and refill it".
The ME says "No, the wheels are unbalanced; we need to get a front-end alignment and a wheel balance"
The EE says "You're both wrong; the ignition controls are messed up, we need to get the timing circuit checked"
The Software Engineer says "How about we just pull over, turn it off, and restart it?"

/thanks, I'm here all week
//try the veal


Isn't the Software Engineer supposed to recommend rolling the windows (get it?) down and bringing them back up?
 
2012-10-17 06:03:02 PM  

ElBarto79: LSinLV: the greatest concern I have is that there is NO redundancy like there is in aircraft (miltary aircraft can have as much as 4-times redundancy, with commercial aircraft having at least an additional redundant system).

there is a difference.

The system has a clutch and will default to mechanical steering if there are any problems.


What have you gained other than added cost if you include a mechanical backup system in a steer-by-wire design? Why not just have mechanical steering to begin with, like every other car?
 
2012-10-17 06:07:58 PM  

screwzloos: ElBarto79: LSinLV: the greatest concern I have is that there is NO redundancy like there is in aircraft (miltary aircraft can have as much as 4-times redundancy, with commercial aircraft having at least an additional redundant system).

there is a difference.

The system has a clutch and will default to mechanical steering if there are any problems.

What have you gained other than added cost if you include a mechanical backup system in a steer-by-wire design? Why not just have mechanical steering to begin with, like every other car?


They listed potential benefits in the article, I also surmised a few in a previous post. Also, if you read they article you would see they stated that hopefully they could eventually eliminate the mechanical backup if they can prove the reliability of the system.
 
2012-10-17 06:09:54 PM  

ZAZ: The article says there will be a clutch you can engage to provide a mechanical connection while you debug the steering computer.

$ strctl engage manual
Error: Manual steering setting conflicts with currently selected steer by wire mode.
$ strctl down sbw
Error: No such subsystem sbw.
$ strctl down tbw
Turn by wire subsystem disabled.
Warning: Front wheels are currently free.
$ strctl engage manual
You have selected manual steering mode. Please read and agree to the following:
Nissan and its subsidiaries, collectively referred to as "Nissan", have
agreed to provide you with a manual steering feature. In manual steering
mode the car will not automatically change direction. It is your responsibility
to guide the car safely. You agree that you will obey all traffic laws.
You agree that you will not use this vehicle to commit any illegal or
tortious act. You agree that you will indemnify and hold harmless Nissan
for any damage resulting from your use of the car in manual steering mode.
You agree that improper use of manual steering mode may result in serious
injury or death to you, an occupant of the car, or any other person, and
such injury or death will be your sole responsibility. This car contains
substances known to the state of California to cause cancer. You acknowledge
that if involved in a collision within the state of California, such substances
may be released. You agree to indemnify and hold harmless Nissan for any
cancer or other injury you or any other person suffers as a result of release
of such chemicals. You further agree that this is a summary of the complete
terms of service of the manual steering option. The complete legal agreement
is found on the Nissan web site. You agree to be bound by that agreement as
if included in full here.

Do you agree to the above contract? (Y/N)


Bravo.
 
2012-10-17 06:12:12 PM  

ElBarto79: LSinLV: the greatest concern I have is that there is NO redundancy like there is in aircraft (miltary aircraft can have as much as 4-times redundancy, with commercial aircraft having at least an additional redundant system).

there is a difference.

The system has a clutch and will default to mechanical steering if there are any problems.


then it's NOT steer by wire....

for a system to be truely steer by wire, there is no "physical" connection between the input and output. only an electronic sensor for input being read by an ECU which in turns signals a servo with a feedback circuit to manage the output.

you can't have a manual fail-safe and really call it steer by wire....there's more than just wire inbetween.
 
2012-10-17 06:12:41 PM  
I'm all for "self-driving" cars so long as it gets you slather asses out of the goddamn left lane.

/and if it drives you into a bridge abutment, all the better!
 
2012-10-17 06:16:42 PM  

PanicMan: Lev_Astov: I know people always break out the lack of feedback argument whenever drive-by-wire is mentioned, but I don't really understand why.

1. It would be quite easy to give force feedback through a decent servo motor.

2. I don't believe I actually use the feedback from the tires to steer. In fact, sometimes the feedback makes going straight harder with all the ruts in the road around here.

Realistic force feedback is not a trivial problem. And force feedback isn't just bumps. It's how easy the wheel is to turn, which depends on the road surface conditions. If all of a sudden my steering goes really light, I know I'm on ice. Or something else bad is happening. Mud feels different from dirt, etc.


In all honesty what you stated is actually more of a positive. This is where ESP really kicks in. And my understanding is that this is also part of the road map for next gen ESP systems.

There is a good youtube video showing human control vs a car with ESP on an ice late in Norway or something. First they do the course at 50mph on ice with ESP off and try to avoid some cones and a sytrofoam wall and fail spectacularly and then they turn ESP back on and do it again this time driving right by as if nothing happened. The computer can compensate and adjust 1000x faster than you can. Now there should be some warning system in place to let you know when you are in such a situation. Either a warning light or a force feedback system, but i say let the ESP system actually handle the situation.
 
2012-10-17 06:17:18 PM  
As long as the OS doesn't have MacroShiat involved I would trust it....
 
2012-10-17 06:18:16 PM  

LSinLV: ElBarto79: LSinLV: the greatest concern I have is that there is NO redundancy like there is in aircraft (miltary aircraft can have as much as 4-times redundancy, with commercial aircraft having at least an additional redundant system).

there is a difference.

The system has a clutch and will default to mechanical steering if there are any problems.

then it's NOT steer by wire....

for a system to be truely steer by wire, there is no "physical" connection between the input and output. only an electronic sensor for input being read by an ECU which in turns signals a servo with a feedback circuit to manage the output.

you can't have a manual fail-safe and really call it steer by wire....there's more than just wire inbetween.


If the clutch is disengaged then there is no physical connection and the system is operating in a fully steer by wire mode. The mechanical backup only kicks in if something goes wrong.
 
2012-10-17 06:28:11 PM  
ChipNASA: blatz514: My Nissan just blew a cylinder, so I am not getting a kick.

It was just Ice Cream, I SWEAR!!!


YOU ARE MY HERO!
 
2012-10-17 06:30:22 PM  
This tech has a lot of potential benefits (reduced weight, more steering wheel positioning options, more cockpit space, variable steering ratios). but Nissan has an electronic system that's backed up by a mechanical steering system that is more complex than a standard steering system. It's costly feature, without much benefit (other than experience in using the tech) to the manufacturers, though it is a sexy feature if you can

but the real issue here that's kept the auto industry wary is the liability placed on the auto manufacturer. As soon as 5 of these things fail, the press could be all over it, it someone dies from a failure, the press and lawyers come knocking quickly.
 
2012-10-17 06:35:52 PM  
I love my Maxima. I don't think I will ever need a Nissan with this "feature" and I expect it will only cost more money to have fixed.
Quit trying to make cars into computers that have computers inside their computers.
 
2012-10-17 06:46:54 PM  
So where does the BSOD/kernel fault message display before you crash?
 
2012-10-17 06:55:52 PM  
Dear Nissan,

Not in a million farking years.
 
2012-10-17 06:55:55 PM  

Gleeman: So where does the BSOD/kernel fault message display before you crash?


I think the airbag would make the most sense...
 
2012-10-17 07:02:06 PM  
I'll just leave this here. Link
 
2012-10-17 07:22:22 PM  

Current Resident: Pffft. Pontiac was toying around with that back in '87.

[images.hemmings.com image 700x478]


Hey look! A 90's Mercury Sable!
 
2012-10-17 07:25:33 PM  

DWitchiewoman: I love my Maxima. I don't think I will ever need a Nissan with this "feature" and I expect it will only cost more money to have fixed.
Quit trying to make cars into computers that have computers inside their computers.


Hey now, it's technology. It has to be better than what you had before.
 
2012-10-17 07:47:52 PM  
"In the future, if we are freed from that, we would be able to place the steering wheel wherever we like, such as in the back seat."

I have frequent dreams where I am driving from the back seat. The problem for me always, is that I cannot brake.
 
2012-10-17 07:51:58 PM  
If there is a mechanical backup, as some have said (requiring a clutch to engage?), I really don't see the point of this. If the linkage is there anyway then you aren't going to be saving weight, and you can already use the electric steering motor to do minor course corrections if that's what you're going for (I think Mercedes or somebody offers automated cross-wind correction this way; it gives a little extra boost in one direction to counter a cross wind when it detects it), so what advantage does this offer? The idea that taking your steering input -> digitizer -> transmit to processor -> process -> transmit to steering motor is going to be quicker than just turning a rigid shaft doesn't seem to fly, either. I suppose it would make it easier to install an autopilot or something, otherwise it really just doesn't seem to make sense - except, perhaps, for those poor souls who want to be totally disconnected from the task at hand and want a totally numb steering feel that doesn't transmit any of the bumps, bounces, or textures to their hands. That seems to be the only real reason to mechanically disconnect the steering.
 
2012-10-17 08:05:48 PM  
Power steering went out on my PT Cruiser last Christmas as I was driving to my mom's. I could still steer it just fine with good old fashioned muscle power. I don't think I'd want to be driving a car where manual steering control was completely out of the picture.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2012-10-17 08:15:35 PM  
As soon as 5 of these things fail, the press could be all over it

And then the federal government orders a recall, but the problem is software so nobody knows how to fix the problem. Manufacturer has to buy back 20,000 cars, and then face 20,000 lawsuits for emotional distress and fraud and consequential damages and so on.
 
2012-10-17 08:37:30 PM  
static5.businessinsider.com


Thank God. For a minute there, Subby, I thought you said, "steer by wife."
 
2012-10-17 08:39:45 PM  

FrancoFile: Four engineers are driving down the road when the engine starts running rough. They start arguing about the cause.
The ChE says "We've got a fuel problem; we need to drain the tank and refill it".
The ME says "No, the wheels are unbalanced; we need to get a front-end alignment and a wheel balance"
The EE says "You're both wrong; the ignition controls are messed up, we need to get the timing circuit checked"
The Software Engineer says "How about we just pull over, turn it off, and restart it?"

/thanks, I'm here all week
//try the veal


How the hell did that ME ever graduate thinking that the cause of a poorly-running engine could have anything to do with the wheels and suspension? He's an idiot. Is he a Phoenix?
 
Displayed 50 of 125 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
Advertisement
On Twitter





In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report