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(BBC)   David Cameron will allow Scottish independence referendum, a simple "yes" or "no" vote that thanks to lawyers and politicians will take two years to arrange   (bbc.co.uk ) divider line
    More: Interesting, independence referendum, Dungeons & Dragons deities, yes-no questions, Holyrood, first minister  
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4127 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Oct 2012 at 1:38 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-15 11:45:31 AM  
Well, with their accents it could take years.
 
2012-10-15 11:59:51 AM  
Ooooohh that's interesting. Wonder if Scotland would join the EU if it got it's independence? Also wondering if N. Ireland will get a similiar vote?
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2012-10-15 12:13:45 PM  
raerae1980

The Good Friday accords give Northern Ireland a right to secede following a popular vote. Everybody assumes the vote would be to join a united Ireland. I don't know if the treaty requires that outcome.
 
2012-10-15 12:33:14 PM  
ok, but does it have a chance in hell at passing?

/seriously asking
 
2012-10-15 12:35:19 PM  
An Independent Scotland. That's going to take some getting used to, if that does indeed happen. But, but.. the U.K.'s flag looks so cool as it is right now, losing Scotland is going to ugly-fy it. :(
 
2012-10-15 12:55:06 PM  

ZAZ: raerae1980

The Good Friday accords give Northern Ireland a right to secede following a popular vote. Everybody assumes the vote would be to join a united Ireland. I don't know if the treaty requires that outcome.


What about a devolved Northern Ireland with Dominion status?
 
2012-10-15 12:56:25 PM  
That should put the referendum for Confederate secession at 2173.
 
2012-10-15 01:37:50 PM  

OtherLittleGuy: ZAZ: raerae1980

The Good Friday accords give Northern Ireland a right to secede following a popular vote. Everybody assumes the vote would be to join a united Ireland. I don't know if the treaty requires that outcome.

What about a devolved Northern Ireland with Dominion status?


Dominion status? Holy hell, that wormhole went way farther than Sisko thought!
 
2012-10-15 01:39:42 PM  
Shouldn't it be an "aye" or "nae" vote?
 
2012-10-15 01:40:14 PM  
Done in one
 
2012-10-15 01:41:07 PM  

Arkanaut: Shouldn't it be an "aye" or "nae" vote?


Came to say exactly this and missed it by a minute. Yez luikin' at a faceful o'heid!

/shakes tiny caber
 
2012-10-15 01:43:30 PM  
a simple "yes" "fookin' aye" or "no" "nae ye daft coont" vote

FTFY
 
2012-10-15 01:43:46 PM  

Grand_Moff_Joseph: ok, but does it have a chance in hell at passing?

/seriously asking


A poll I saw had 20-30% of voters being in favor. The vote is 2 years away. The main party leader who is pushing for this thinks he can sway the vote in favor with his patriotic rhetoric.

I'd put the likelyhood at 50/50, but only if Scotland can get a good share of those North Sea gas fields in the divorce.
 
2012-10-15 01:45:06 PM  
It'd be interesting to have an independent Scotland, but honestly I just think the whole idea will f both England and Scotland's economy. Is this really necessary?

/American with Scottish-English blood, with more English, but a Scottish last name.
 
2012-10-15 01:45:41 PM  

Arkanaut: Shouldn't it be an "aye" or "nae" vote?


Aw pesh.
 
2012-10-15 01:47:58 PM  

cgraves67: The main party leader who is pushing for this thinks he can sway the vote in favor with his patriotic rhetoric.


Mel Gibson unavailable for comment
 
2012-10-15 01:51:18 PM  
Do it Quebec style;

"Do you agree that Quebec should become sovereign, after having made a formal offer to Canada for a new Economic and Political partnership, within the scope of the Bill respecting the future of Quebec and of the agreement signed on June 12, 1995?"

Do you to agree to disagree that you agree with the disagreement? That ought to mess up the average Scots person.
 
2012-10-15 01:51:18 PM  

cgraves67: Grand_Moff_Joseph: ok, but does it have a chance in hell at passing?

/seriously asking

A poll I saw had 20-30% of voters being in favor. The vote is 2 years away. The main party leader who is pushing for this thinks he can sway the vote in favor with his patriotic rhetoric.

I'd put the likelyhood at 50/50, but only if Scotland can get a good share of those North Sea gas fields in the divorce.


Doesn't seem very likely then, no where near a 50/50 as you put it. I'm assuming that a simple majority referendum isn't necessary for a split? I'd guess it would take at least two-thirds majority.

/drtfa
 
2012-10-15 01:51:39 PM  

cgraves67: Grand_Moff_Joseph: ok, but does it have a chance in hell at passing?

/seriously asking

A poll I saw had 20-30% of voters being in favor. The vote is 2 years away. The main party leader who is pushing for this thinks he can sway the vote in favor with his patriotic rhetoric.

I'd put the likelyhood at 50/50, but only if Scotland can get a good share of those North Sea gas fields in the divorce.


It's a gamble, but it's too all or nothing for the Scots, who have always preferred to have home rule, but with the protection and money of the rest of the UK flowing through. This is Cameron basically finding a way to get the Scots to stop talking about independence during every political discussion.

/same deal with Puerto Rico and the US
 
2012-10-15 01:52:49 PM  
Sean Connery will vote "yessh"
 
2012-10-15 01:52:52 PM  
Yes or no?

More like haggis or scones.
 
2012-10-15 01:54:14 PM  

indarwinsshadow: Do it Quebec style;

"Do you agree that Quebec should become sovereign, after having made a formal offer to Canada for a new Economic and Political partnership, within the scope of the Bill respecting the future of Quebec and of the agreement signed on June 12, 1995?"

Do you to agree to disagree that you agree with the disagreement? That ought to mess up the average Scots person.


Not if they can do it cheaper...and they'll figure it out, trust me.
 
2012-10-15 01:56:36 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Well, with their accents it could take years.


"D'e no want tae be indeepentant, See? Aye or Nae, isnae yer rocket science, the noo, are ye gaun tae tak' all the day noo or d'ye want tae get off tae the pubs afore th' crack o'doomsday, ye neep, 'fore all the bints'll be jiggin' wi' some other wankers?"
 
2012-10-15 01:57:27 PM  
Does this mean COMPLETE independence...meaning Scotland will have to raise their own taxes to support their own military, and all their own social services, etc?
 
2012-10-15 02:00:54 PM  

The Southern Dandy: Does this mean COMPLETE independence...meaning Scotland will have to raise their own taxes to support their own military, and all their own social services, etc?


I take it, it's probably more like Quebecs "Hey, we can use your money, your military and your banking system when it's convenient for us, but call ourselves an independent entity when it suits us".
 
2012-10-15 02:00:59 PM  
Interesting, but I don't see it happening. While three-quarters of Scots favor holding a referendum, only about 35% favor leaving the UK. Support of independence has dropped since the SNP was formed. Many Scots believe they are better of staying in the UK. Even if they do leave the union, they intend to keep the Pound Sterling as their currency. They are already fully autonomous, with very little interference from London. Why change things now?
 
2012-10-15 02:02:10 PM  
Ah, yes, the "Disunited Kingdom", as my British History professor called it.

"I'm only slightly different than you, most of the world doesn't care what flag I'm under, so I'm going to force everyone to recognized my people as a country."

Worked wonders in the Balkans. It must be a European thing, too, because this crap doesn't fly in the US and most Canadians are getting at least somewhat tired of Quebec's constant whining.
 
2012-10-15 02:04:16 PM  

indarwinsshadow: The Southern Dandy: Does this mean COMPLETE independence...meaning Scotland will have to raise their own taxes to support their own military, and all their own social services, etc?

I take it, it's probably more like Quebecs "Hey, we can use your money, your military and your banking system when it's convenient for us, but call ourselves an independent entity when it suits us".


Technically its Scotland's banking system. They kind of invented it.
 
2012-10-15 02:11:20 PM  

Marine1: "I'm only slightly different than you, most of the world doesn't care what flag I'm under, so I'm going to force everyone to recognized my people as a country."

Worked wonders in the Balkans. It must be a European thing, too, because this crap doesn't fly in the US and most Canadians are getting at least somewhat tired of Quebec's constant whining.


Just wait. Ethnic, religious, racial and cultural tensions are at an all-time high in the USA. It may breakup into several racial or religious sub-nations (sub-divisions of nation-state). 

Historically, jamming together a bunch of different populations and calling them a nation hasn't worked so well. I hear Northern Ireland is senescent, but Belgium is still troubled by this. Being Belgians, "troubled" means angry fist-waving, not bombs or gunfire.
 
2012-10-15 02:12:30 PM  

sodomizer: Just wait. Ethnic, religious, racial and cultural tensions are at an all-time high in the USA. It may breakup into several racial or religious sub-nations (sub-divisions of nation-state).


haha, ok.
 
2012-10-15 02:19:16 PM  
Does that mean England can stop paying all Scotland's bills for them and they can actually pay for their own stuff?
 
2012-10-15 02:20:04 PM  
But if Scotland left, where would England send all of its welfare money?
 
2012-10-15 02:20:55 PM  
{ oh beans, now I have to look up senescent }
 
2012-10-15 02:20:57 PM  

sodomizer: Marine1: "I'm only slightly different than you, most of the world doesn't care what flag I'm under, so I'm going to force everyone to recognized my people as a country."

Worked wonders in the Balkans. It must be a European thing, too, because this crap doesn't fly in the US and most Canadians are getting at least somewhat tired of Quebec's constant whining.

Just wait. Ethnic, religious, racial and cultural tensions are at an all-time high in the USA. It may breakup into several racial or religious sub-nations (sub-divisions of nation-state). 

Historically, jamming together a bunch of different populations and calling them a nation hasn't worked so well. I hear Northern Ireland is senescent, but Belgium is still troubled by this. Being Belgians, "troubled" means angry fist-waving, not bombs or gunfire.


*sigh*

Ethnic, religious, and racial/cultural tensions are not at an all-time high in the US. I mean, ffs, I'm dating a Jew and my parents are conservative Christians (more moderate Christian myself)... and they have no problem with it. 50 years ago, that would have almost been unheard of in the Midwest. Ethnic food joints are all over the place these days, especially in neighborhoods where whitey likes to pretend to be worldly. A black man is the President of the United States. Hell, in Joplin, MO (if Springfield is the buckle of the Bible Belt, Joplin is the notch that makes the belt the smallest), church and synagogue leaders pitched in to help the members of that mosque that was intentionally burned.

That being said, what you have in a lot of these regions would be the equivalent to all of the Italian-Americans in New York calling for a vote to break off their neighborhoods into a sovereign nation simply because those neighborhoods are mostly Catholic and the names end in a vowel. It's stupid logic to draw borders by.
 
2012-10-15 02:21:06 PM  

Grand_Moff_Joseph: ok, but does it have a chance in hell at passing?

/seriously asking


The Scot Nats' leadership don't really think they can win - although they have to claim in public they can...
 
2012-10-15 02:24:03 PM  
Scotland being actually completely independent would weaken two small nations in the face of intense international competition, wouldn't it?
 
2012-10-15 02:24:38 PM  
Oil taxes and subsidy pretty much cancel each other out at present.

Of course, oil production is going down every year. The North Sea oilfields are very old.
 
2012-10-15 02:25:21 PM  

opiumpoopy: Grand_Moff_Joseph: ok, but does it have a chance in hell at passing?

/seriously asking

The Scot Nats' leadership don't really think they can win - although they have to claim in public they can...


They need this fellow:

beyondtherim.meisheid.com

In a pinch the real one will do, but this one can shoot lightning bolts out his ass.
 
2012-10-15 02:30:08 PM  

Spade: But if Scotland left, where would England send all of its welfare money?


Spade: But if Scotland left, where would England send all of its welfare money?


I think what you mean is if Scotland left, where would England get their subsidy from? The GERS report is politically motivated to keep Scotland as part of the union and is fundamentally flawed. and the government have actually admitted it. So what will England do if the money Scotland supports them with disappears?
 
2012-10-15 02:33:11 PM  
I don't get a lot of the independence movements around the world, but Scotland's especially confuses me. They already have a local legislature, they get more money from the national government than they give, they have power over just about everything except immigration, defense, and foreign relations. Scotland gets its own banking system, legal system, language legislation, church, etc, etc.

Even if all of the North Sea oil revenue from "Scotland's waters" were given to Scotland, they still get more from the UK than they pay in and there's some debate as to whether they'd be able to keep all of the North Sea oil for themselves after independence, since the boundaries would be redrawn. I also don't think the Scottish are really discriminated against, are they? It's not like they're living under a heavy yoke of English oppression, right?

I kinda get Quebec's independence movement - there's a completely separate language spoken by the vast majority of the population. In Scotland, essentially everyone speaks English and only about 31% speak another, "Scottish" language. If you count Scots as a dialect of English rather than a separate language (which even the majority of Scottish do), then you get only 1% of the population speaking a native Scottish language (Scottish Gaelic).

I'm not trying to be a jerk about this - I truly just don't understand. Someone please explain to me why Scotland wants independence in realpolitik terms. If it really is just "we want to be independent becase we want to be independent" then, that's great, but I don't think it will work out well in real terms.
 
2012-10-15 02:34:22 PM  

NutznGum: indarwinsshadow: The Southern Dandy: Does this mean COMPLETE independence...meaning Scotland will have to raise their own taxes to support their own military, and all their own social services, etc?

I take it, it's probably more like Quebecs "Hey, we can use your money, your military and your banking system when it's convenient for us, but call ourselves an independent entity when it suits us".

Technically its Scotland's banking system. They kind of invented it.


Not sure how you figure that out, the Bank of Scotland was founded a year after the Bank of England (and the Swedes have both beat).

... and technically the Scot's banking system was completely farked when the two kingdoms joined, that was a major factor driving the act of union.
 
2012-10-15 02:34:45 PM  

Lord Dimwit: I don't get a lot of the independence movements around the world, but Scotland's especially confuses me. They already have a local legislature, they get more money from the national government than they give, they have power over just about everything except immigration, defense, and foreign relations. Scotland gets its own banking system, legal system, language legislation, church, etc, etc.

Even if all of the North Sea oil revenue from "Scotland's waters" were given to Scotland, they still get more from the UK than they pay in and there's some debate as to whether they'd be able to keep all of the North Sea oil for themselves after independence, since the boundaries would be redrawn. I also don't think the Scottish are really discriminated against, are they? It's not like they're living under a heavy yoke of English oppression, right?

I kinda get Quebec's independence movement - there's a completely separate language spoken by the vast majority of the population. In Scotland, essentially everyone speaks English and only about 31% speak another, "Scottish" language. If you count Scots as a dialect of English rather than a separate language (which even the majority of Scottish do), then you get only 1% of the population speaking a native Scottish language (Scottish Gaelic).

I'm not trying to be a jerk about this - I truly just don't understand. Someone please explain to me why Scotland wants independence in realpolitik terms. If it really is just "we want to be independent becase we want to be independent" then, that's great, but I don't think it will work out well in real terms.


Their names are different and have an accent.
 
2012-10-15 02:35:53 PM  

sodomizer: Marine1: "I'm only slightly different than you, most of the world doesn't care what flag I'm under, so I'm going to force everyone to recognized my people as a country."

Worked wonders in the Balkans. It must be a European thing, too, because this crap doesn't fly in the US and most Canadians are getting at least somewhat tired of Quebec's constant whining.

Just wait. Ethnic, religious, racial and cultural tensions are at an all-time high in the USA. It may breakup into several racial or religious sub-nations (sub-divisions of nation-state). 

Historically, jamming together a bunch of different populations and calling them a nation hasn't worked so well. I hear Northern Ireland is senescent, but Belgium is still troubled by this. Being Belgians, "troubled" means angry fist-waving, not bombs or gunfire.


The thing that will stop the United States from breaking up like that is that, even in the most divided states, it's still at most a 60-40 split between the two opposing sides on essentially everything - either that, or the minority that wants to split off is so small as to have insufficient political power to become truly independent.

That being said, it would be interesting if all the liberals moved north and all the conservatives moved south and we let things evolve naturally. I have a feeling the south would be a third-world country within a generation.
 
2012-10-15 02:36:43 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: /same deal with Puerto Rico and the US


Except that if the Puerto Rico referendum passes, it won't mean shiat.
 
2012-10-15 02:38:10 PM  
While making secession noises can sometimes get you free crap to make you stop harassing everyone, I doubt anywhere near half of the Scottish genuinely want it. Sort of the same deal as with states in the US, the economies are bound so tightly together that secession is sort of playing jenga with your livelihood. It's not the 1800s where political sub-units were more or less self-supporting.
 
2012-10-15 02:41:20 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: cgraves67: Grand_Moff_Joseph: ok, but does it have a chance in hell at passing?

/seriously asking

A poll I saw had 20-30% of voters being in favor. The vote is 2 years away. The main party leader who is pushing for this thinks he can sway the vote in favor with his patriotic rhetoric.

I'd put the likelyhood at 50/50, but only if Scotland can get a good share of those North Sea gas fields in the divorce.

It's a gamble, but it's too all or nothing for the Scots, who have always preferred to have home rule, but with the protection and money of the rest of the UK flowing through. This is Cameron basically finding a way to get the Scots to stop talking about independence during every political discussion.

/same deal with Puerto Rico and the US


It's very different with Puerto Rico and the US. Puerto Rico speaks a different language from the vast majority of the United States, doesn't have voting representation in the federal legislative bodies, can't vote for President, and has much more limited self-government than Scotland.

Scotland has essentially complete home-rule, plus voting representation in the national Parliament, and doesn't speak a different language.
 
2012-10-15 02:44:10 PM  
AS an expat Englishman who still considers England to be home, I think England should pre-empt the uppity Scottish and dissolve the Union ourselves.

They add little to no value and deserve the chance to see what the world is like without their relatively powerful southern neighbor to protect them.
 
2012-10-15 02:49:23 PM  

The Southern Dandy: Does this mean COMPLETE independence...meaning Scotland will have to raise their own taxes to support their own military, and all their own social services, etc?


I hope so. Scotland is a leech on the English economy, which would be fine if they didn't hate us so much.

Let them go - or even force them out.
 
2012-10-15 02:50:49 PM  

kg2095: AS an expat Englishman who still considers England to be home, I think England should pre-empt the uppity Scottish and dissolve the Union ourselves.

They add little to no value and deserve the chance to see what the world is like without their relatively powerful southern neighbor to protect them.


You're not helping.
 
Xai
2012-10-15 02:51:54 PM  

Spiralmonkey: Spade: But if Scotland left, where would England send all of its welfare money?

Spade: But if Scotland left, where would England send all of its welfare money?

I think what you mean is if Scotland left, where would England get their subsidy from? The GERS report is politically motivated to keep Scotland as part of the union and is fundamentally flawed. and the government have actually admitted it. So what will England do if the money Scotland supports them with disappears?


Personally I want Scotland to stay just because I love Scotland. I wish it was about more than money - this just seems to be an issue to most of 'we want more money therefore we're going to destroy the union'
 
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