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(New York Daily News)   Now that we civilized the land the Onondaga Indian Tribe of New York is fighting to reclaim 2.5 million acres, including Binghamton, Oswego, Syracuse and Watertown   (nydailynews.com) divider line 67
    More: Asinine, Watertown, Binghamton, Onondaga Indian Tribe, Onondaga Nation, Syracuse, Onondaga, New York, Central New York  
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4789 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Oct 2012 at 1:55 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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Archived thread
2012-10-13 02:28:22 PM
8 votes:

Decados: I am getting so damed sick and tired of all of this crap.

You all lost the war against civilization. Please either acclimate into our, the victors, society, or go off into a little corner and just die. Go away. Stop whining that every mound of dirt that's more than a foot tall is 'sacred' to you. Stop pretending that the land you forced OTHER indians out of has 'always been a spiritual heartland to our people'. Stop claiming that just because you're 1/10000000'th indian that you have 'special rights'. Stop pretending that you're not a conquered people.

The reservation system was a result of our bigotry towards native americans, and it's continued existance only perpetuates the cultural differences and divisions.


They are; they are suing for breech of contract. What you are complaining about is that they are using the white man's tool to roger the white man.

You: Be like us white people; stab others inthe back and use legalistic gooble-de-gook to rape the other guys silly!
Them: Well ... if you insist: we signed this; your designated representatives signed this; you haven't been honoring the deal; we're gonna sue you for breach of contract; bend over pretty-boy
You: Noooooooooooooooooo! That's not faaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr !
2012-10-13 02:53:10 PM
4 votes:
My Dad's family is from Oswego, I was born in Onondaga County, went to SUNY Binghamton... Now I live in Nevada. Look up Sarah Winnemucca. This case just underscores the fact that when the Constitution said all men are created equal, they didn't mean blacks, or indigenous people, or Irish, or women, or poor.

To those who say "We won, get over it," I would say, "Learn Spanish (or Mandarin), get over it."
2012-10-13 02:22:14 PM
4 votes:
Mantour:To expose the "noble lie", as these lands were stolen through force or fraud from the Indian tribes. And you cannot build a moral society if its foundation is built on immoral actions.

I'd be curious to find out what society has been built on a foundation of moral actions.
2012-10-13 02:52:40 PM
3 votes:

chuckufarlie: maybe they should have spoken up sooner.

maybe we should find out how many people in this tribe are left and their percentage of tribal blood.

maybe they should shut up and find a life.

maybe they should be happy that they were not completely wiped out long ago.


So, what you are saying is that if any corporation that wants to can totally null any agreement it may have with you, and you will slin off and kill yourself in a corner to avoid causing them any problems for breaking a legal contract.

They found a life; they decided to adopt the Western legal system as their model, i.e. they did what you wanted. They then realized that they had a legal claim based on the failure of other entities to love up to the terms of that contract. If the case was "John Smith is suing Edward Taylor because Edward Taylor agreed to pay John Smith for 10 acres of land, but then Edward Taylor refused to, and now John Smith is suing Edward Taylor to get his land back" how would it be any different legally than what this is?
2012-10-13 02:16:57 PM
3 votes:
Well, considering that Europeans stole the land from them in the first place. And that they were already thought of as "civilized" 350 yrs ago - even by the European invaders' standards. And that the US Govt has broken every treaty they've ever made with them - Maybe they have a right to sue to get back what is theirs.
2012-10-13 02:14:14 PM
3 votes:
capital-flow-watch.net

To expose the "noble lie", as these lands were stolen through force or fraud from the Indian tribes. And you cannot build a moral society if its foundation is built on immoral actions.


/Just a hunch.
2012-10-13 02:10:22 PM
3 votes:
I am getting so damed sick and tired of all of this crap.

You all lost the war against civilization. Please either acclimate into our, the victors, society, or go off into a little corner and just die. Go away. Stop whining that every mound of dirt that's more than a foot tall is 'sacred' to you. Stop pretending that the land you forced OTHER indians out of has 'always been a spiritual heartland to our people'. Stop claiming that just because you're 1/10000000'th indian that you have 'special rights'. Stop pretending that you're not a conquered people.

The reservation system was a result of our bigotry towards native americans, and it's continued existance only perpetuates the cultural differences and divisions.
2012-10-14 12:19:51 AM
2 votes:

chuckufarlie: 2wolves: Constitution.

Stupid auto correct.

yea, blame it on that.

Now explain to me how the Constitution has anything to do with this? This tribe filed a lawsuit in 2005 about something that had happened in 1788 and 1822. They lost that lawsuit. They had their day in court. That is all that any of us can or should expect from the government.


How could they file a lawsuit in 1822? they weren't even regarded as people then. Neither was any other non-white... or woman. Native americans weren't even granted citizenship until 1924, if you were a native american born before 1924 you STILL were not a citizen, and some states didn't even grant them voting rights until 1948. That's after WWII and within living memory.

Their case would likely have been dismissed before opening arguments, if they had been allowed to file it at all. So no, all the sh*t that happened to them wasn't just long ago and far away, which means that the timing of their suit is perfectly valid.
2012-10-13 11:22:57 PM
2 votes:

chuckufarlie: Read the article, moron. The tribe took this to court in 2005 and they lost. They are trying to fight a treaty from the 1700s; Did you get that?? The 1700s. What took them so long?


You can't be serious. You are asking why the Indians didn't simply sue the USA in the late 1700s to get their land back?

I guess they could have avoided the whole "Trail of Tears" thing just by hiring a lawyer too, amirite?

This is probably the dumbest argument in the whole thread.
2012-10-13 05:42:27 PM
2 votes:

UltimaCS: chuckufarlie: maybe they should have spoken up sooner.
If you spent more time with your head outside of your ass, you'd know that this has been a legal issue since such treaties were signed.

maybe we should find out how many people in this tribe are left and their percentage of tribal blood.
Why does it matter? Surely you're not so ridiculously antiquated that you still hold onto the idea that Natives (the only people in the Western Hemisphere where this matters) are only as Native as their blood allows? Would you sponsor a bill that says government handouts should only apply to people who can trace their lineage to forefathers?

maybe they should shut up and find a life.
I'm glad you're taking the country's oldest issue so seriously.

maybe they should be happy that they were not completely wiped out long ago.
I just hope you're not the kind of animal who says this to their parents/grandparents before shoving them in a home.


1, The fact that this has been an issue for so long is not important. Each situation must be treated alone. In THIS case, they should have spoken up sooner.

2. Bloodlines seem to matter to the Indians. Show me a tribe with a money source to share among the tribal members and I will show you a tribe that has put limits on who is and who is not a member of the tribe, Beyond that, there has been Federal limitations based on percentage of tribal blood for a long time. Many of the handouts given to Indians is based on bloodline percentage,

3. Troubles with the Indians is not the oldest issue in the country. It is just the oldest not to be settled. More Indians would assimilate if they were not given handouts by the govt. Spend some time in western states with large reservations and then get back to me. No group of people takes advantage of the govt. more than the Indians.

4. The idea that there is any comparison between the failure to completely wipe out the Indians and sending old people to a home is based on stupidity. There is no way to make a logical comparison. Not that you are all that logical.

So, it seems that your real problem is a lack of information on the subject coupled with the erroneous idea that you do have that information.
2012-10-13 03:47:16 PM
2 votes:
I would say that waiting 183 years to file just might be beyond any limiting statute and could be taken as tacit approval.
2012-10-13 03:29:00 PM
2 votes:
The Bear
No Indian alive today had their land stolen, and no white man alive today stole said land. I'd say it's time to get over it and learn to make your own way in the world. Just like the rest of us.

I, for one, know that I got no special advantages from being white. Everyone's bootstraps are exactly as long as mine. No one lacks quality schools, a stable family and social upbringing, and ready access to economic opportunity. Nope, nobody at all.


Techhell
I'd be curious to find out what society has been built on a foundation of moral actions.

Everyone else does it wrong, so why shouldn't we?


Need_MindBleach
Let me let you in on a little secret....virtually all land in the world, even the land that Indian tribes lived on, was stolen from someone else. To learn more, read some ancient history, or some pre-columbian history. It's all the same, over, and over and over. Murder and conquest, or murder and the driving off of the losers. Over and over, on every region on earth inhabited by humans.

Which makes it OK!
2012-10-13 03:27:29 PM
2 votes:
What Americans consider "civilizing" the land:

randylewis.org

i.telegraph.co.uk

cf.juggle-images.com
2012-10-13 02:53:50 PM
2 votes:
Why is this asinine, subby? They're only asking for the lands that were rightfully thiers, to begin with
2012-10-13 02:35:53 PM
2 votes:

Decados: I am getting so damed sick and tired of all of this crap.

You all lost the war against civilization. Please either acclimate into our, the victors, society, or go off into a little corner and just die. Go away. Stop whining that every mound of dirt that's more than a foot tall is 'sacred' to you. Stop pretending that the land you forced OTHER indians out of has 'always been a spiritual heartland to our people'. Stop claiming that just because you're 1/10000000'th indian that you have 'special rights'. Stop pretending that you're not a conquered people.

The reservation system was a result of our bigotry towards native americans, and it's continued existance only perpetuates the cultural differences and divisions.


'You lost, get over it' didn't work during the Bush Administration and it ain't gonna work now. Ask the Senecas how well that works. They signed a 100-year lease granting what became Salamanca, which Salamanca proceeded to completely forget about. The Seneca didn't. When the lease ran out in the 90's, Salamanca started up with pretty much the exact same line of argument you just used. The Seneca's response was basically 'A deal's a deal'.

The Seneca got the land. And they do actively evict people who won't play by their rules.

You want to beat the Onondagas back? Telling them to go away ain't gonna work. You better beat them in the courtroom.
2012-10-13 02:17:34 PM
2 votes:

Decados: I am getting so damed sick and tired of all of this crap.

You all lost the war against civilization. Please either acclimate into our, the victors, society, or go off into a little corner and just die. Go away. Stop whining that every mound of dirt that's more than a foot tall is 'sacred' to you. Stop pretending that the land you forced OTHER indians out of has 'always been a spiritual heartland to our people'. Stop claiming that just because you're 1/10000000'th indian that you have 'special rights'. Stop pretending that you're not a conquered people.

The reservation system was a result of our bigotry towards native americans, and it's continued existance only perpetuates the cultural differences and divisions.


Shame that neither of our countries will ever have a discussion this frank on this subject. Not in total agreement with you on this, but it's fast coming time where there's going to need to be a major change in the relationship. And it's not going to be pretty.
2012-10-13 02:15:59 PM
2 votes:
No Indian alive today had their land stolen, and no white man alive today stole said land. I'd say it's time to get over it and learn to make your own way in the world. Just like the rest of us.
2012-10-13 02:14:16 PM
2 votes:

Decados: I am getting so damed sick and tired of all of this crap.

You all lost the war against civilization. Please either acclimate into our, the victors, society, or go off into a little corner and just die. Go away. Stop whining that every mound of dirt that's more than a foot tall is 'sacred' to you. Stop pretending that the land you forced OTHER indians out of has 'always been a spiritual heartland to our people'. Stop claiming that just because you're 1/10000000'th indian that you have 'special rights'. Stop pretending that you're not a conquered people.

The reservation system was a result of our bigotry towards native americans, and it's continued existance only perpetuates the cultural differences and divisions.


You sound white.
2012-10-13 02:12:37 PM
2 votes:
Let the UN settle this. They did such a good job with those other guys. We never hear from them. C'mon, Onondagas, claim ancestral holy ground. take what the UN partitions and then seize a couple of extra square miles 'for security'. Then, move in more tribes and expand in to disputed areas. Develope your own trade, laws and get recognized by a 'friendly' nation who will give you a couple a billion a year to buy weapons.

Then a miracle will happen and peace and happiness will fall upon the land.
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2012-10-13 12:15:31 PM
2 votes:
The Seneca tribe also wants land back and has been billing New York for tolls it charges drivers who use the Thruway through their claimed territory.
2012-10-14 08:03:22 AM
1 votes:
This thread is relevant to my interests. I will be anticipating travel disruptions along the 81 corridor south of Syracuse.
2012-10-14 12:18:32 AM
1 votes:

chuckufarlie: BTW, the Indians did not do what I wanted. I would want them to learn to stand on their own two feet, stop asking the govt. for handouts and stop instigating lawsuits like this one.


What the fark are you talking about?
They aren't getting handouts from the government, they're getting handouts from the morons that go to the casinos.
2012-10-14 12:10:03 AM
1 votes:

Xcott: chuckufarlie: Read the article, moron. The tribe took this to court in 2005 and they lost. They are trying to fight a treaty from the 1700s; Did you get that?? The 1700s. What took them so long?

You can't be serious. You are asking why the Indians didn't simply sue the USA in the late 1700s to get their land back?

I guess they could have avoided the whole "Trail of Tears" thing just by hiring a lawyer too, amirite?

This is probably the dumbest argument in the whole thread.


The really ironic thing--the Cherokee Nation DID try to stop the whole "Trail of Tears" thing by going all the way to the Supreme Court (and the decision in question is pretty much the entire legal basis for the sovereign status of First Nations in US law)--ruling that the state of Georgia's attempt to remove the Cherokee Nation was in fact quite illegal.

Alas, Andrew Jackson subsequently became the first President to directly defy a Supreme Court order (which in and of itself should have triggered a bit of a constitutional crisis) and proceeded to have the US Army march pretty much everyone who didn't hide in the mountains (and shoot back) or who didn't sneak off the trail (and subsequently try to pass as "Black Dutch" or "Black Irish" and became functionally illegal aliens in their own country for the next hundred years) right the fark to Goddamn Oklahoma by gunpoint in the dead of winter in what is probably the first modern incident of what is now known as "ethnic cleansing".

Suffice it to say that there are a fair number of their descendants who have not so much faith in the court system as a result.

/yup, some of my ancestors bailed and/or hid out and "passed"
//there's a real reason that there's a rather large population of descendants of the Five Civilised Tribes in the Southeast who are not "Dawes Act Indians"--pretty much they stopped trusting the legal agreements after being farked over the first time
2012-10-13 11:42:15 PM
1 votes:

JK47: festoon: Well, considering that Europeans stole the land from them in the first place. And that they were already thought of as "civilized" 350 yrs ago - even by the European invaders' standards. And that the US Govt has broken every treaty they've ever made with them - Maybe they have a right to sue to get back what is theirs.


And considering how societies way back when occupied territory why should they have a right to sue for territory they stole?


There's a difference between stealing and refusing to honor a legal contract.
The white people who signed the contract didn't really regard the natives as people anyway and too stupid to ever actually ask that the contracts be enforced, so the signings were (to them) just for show.

Or so they thought.

Now the native americans are using the white man's laws in the white man's courtrooms to force the white man to honor his contracts. Good for them. Guess they're not as stupid as once thought, eh?
2012-10-13 10:59:42 PM
1 votes:
hbk72777
You've never heard of squatting? Nothings changed in this country, you can still try to take what belongs to others.
See this story
Link


Abandoned property belongs to nobody. That's a Fox "News" article, so there's no telling what reality is.


Ecliptic
The Iroqouis fought for the British. They lost. Fark them.

They fought on whichever side they thought would result in them keeping their land. Nations that fought on the side of the settlers never fared any better.


chuckufarlie
that would be a great idea, if you do not win in court, kill people.

According to most Farkers, that would make it theirs.

I guess that your moniker is inaccurate. NO, that is not what happened in the American Revolution.

Right: You have to make an eloquent declaration before you start killing people.

Read the article, moron. The tribe took this to court in 2005 and they lost. They are trying to fight a treaty from the 1700s; Did you get that?? The 1700s. What took them so long?

Maybe they thought the country had gotten more civilized. Guess not!

As for your ignorant statement about right of conquest. If you want to negate that idea, you are going to screw up every border in the world several times over.

We certainly wouldn't want to make things hard for cartographers...

What they want is a large pile of money that they do not deserve.

It's not like we were born on third base or anything. Being an Indian means a person starts off with exactly the same advantages as white people. For realz.
2012-10-13 10:24:37 PM
1 votes:
Welcome to New Zealand. Oh wait, sorry didn't see you there USA.
2012-10-13 08:55:32 PM
1 votes:

MeanJean: 50$ says that the same people here complaining about Native Americans are the same ones who piss and moan about illegal immigrants.


Duh, they know the value of keeping the illegal immigrants out. Since the previous natives didn't do such a great job.
2012-10-13 08:35:53 PM
1 votes:
You lost. Get over it.
2012-10-13 08:17:38 PM
1 votes:

wellreadneck: chuckufarlie: ZombieStreetCred: Maybe the Onondagas might get their way if they pushed the point home by burning down a few churches, to show whitey what time it is.

that would be a great idea, if you do not win in court, kill people.

Isn't that sort of what happened in the American Revolution?


I guess that your moniker is inaccurate. NO, that is not what happened in the American Revolution.
2012-10-13 06:39:08 PM
1 votes:
If they weren't strong enough to hold on to their possesions, they have no rights to it anymore.

Kind of a mote point after the 14th Amendment was ratified.
2012-10-13 06:31:50 PM
1 votes:

jso2897: ThrobblefootSpectre: Laws of adverse possession (squatters law) usually give the rightful owner 7 years to make the legal claim in court to get back his property . I think we are past 7 years. Next case.

Meh. Let the courts decide - there is settled law on all this shiat. I don't give a f**k one way or another.


the courts DID decide and the Indians lost. They just do not want to accept it.
2012-10-13 06:30:25 PM
1 votes:

jso2897: chuckufarlie: phalamir: Decados: I am getting so damed sick and tired of all of this crap.

You all lost the war against civilization. Please either acclimate into our, the victors, society, or go off into a little corner and just die. Go away. Stop whining that every mound of dirt that's more than a foot tall is 'sacred' to you. Stop pretending that the land you forced OTHER indians out of has 'always been a spiritual heartland to our people'. Stop claiming that just because you're 1/10000000'th indian that you have 'special rights'. Stop pretending that you're not a conquered people.

The reservation system was a result of our bigotry towards native americans, and it's continued existance only perpetuates the cultural differences and divisions.

They are; they are suing for breech of contract. What you are complaining about is that they are using the white man's tool to roger the white man.

You: Be like us white people; stab others inthe back and use legalistic gooble-de-gook to rape the other guys silly!
Them: Well ... if you insist: we signed this; your designated representatives signed this; you haven't been honoring the deal; we're gonna sue you for breach of contract; bend over pretty-boy
You: Noooooooooooooooooo! That's not faaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr !

maybe they should have spoken up sooner.

maybe we should find out how many people in this tribe are left and their percentage of tribal blood.

maybe they should shut up and find a life.

maybe they should be happy that they were not completely wiped out long ago.

Hey - they're doing things our way - in courts, with lawyers and so on. What's your beef? Nobody asked you to contribute to their legal fund - mind your own business.


wouldn't fark be an awfully lonely place if everybody minded their own business? A rather stupid idea on your part.

They went to court SEVEN years ago and they lost the case. They do not want to accept the ruling of the court. They have not filed an appeal, they are taking to the streets to protest. So much for doing things our way.
2012-10-13 06:23:45 PM
1 votes:
Laws of adverse possession (squatters law) usually give the rightful owner 7 years to make the legal claim in court to get back his property . I think we are past 7 years. Next case.
2012-10-13 06:17:22 PM
1 votes:

2wolves: Constitution.

Stupid auto correct.


yea, blame it on that.

Now explain to me how the Constitution has anything to do with this? This tribe filed a lawsuit in 2005 about something that had happened in 1788 and 1822. They lost that lawsuit. They had their day in court. That is all that any of us can or should expect from the government.
2012-10-13 05:49:29 PM
1 votes:

phalamir: chuckufarlie: maybe they should have spoken up sooner.

maybe we should find out how many people in this tribe are left and their percentage of tribal blood.

maybe they should shut up and find a life.

maybe they should be happy that they were not completely wiped out long ago.

So, what you are saying is that if any corporation that wants to can totally null any agreement it may have with you, and you will slin off and kill yourself in a corner to avoid causing them any problems for breaking a legal contract.

They found a life; they decided to adopt the Western legal system as their model, i.e. they did what you wanted. They then realized that they had a legal claim based on the failure of other entities to love up to the terms of that contract. If the case was "John Smith is suing Edward Taylor because Edward Taylor agreed to pay John Smith for 10 acres of land, but then Edward Taylor refused to, and now John Smith is suing Edward Taylor to get his land back" how would it be any different legally than what this is?


why do so many farkers come up with analogies that would not make sense to any intelligent person? I guess it is because so many of you are not intelligent. Your analogy would be better, but still stupid, if you said that John Smith's great great great grandson who suing for the land.

BTW, the Indians did not do what I wanted. I would want them to learn to stand on their own two feet, stop asking the govt. for handouts and stop instigating lawsuits like this one.

Did you read the article? This stems back to 1788 and 1822. The lawsuit was not filed until 2005. That is a long time between the "wrong" and the lawsuit. Hopefully you can do the math.

There is a statute of limitations for most actions. Let's make the limit 100 years and tell the Indians to go fark themselves.
2012-10-13 05:18:29 PM
1 votes:
The Iroqouis fought for the British. They lost. Fark them.
2012-10-13 04:46:51 PM
1 votes:
Tough shiat. Show me one reservation that is doing something constructive and even remotely self-sustaining WITHOUT biatching about poverty or relying on casinos. The Native American culture is not at the same level of maturation to survive in modern society via manufacturing, natural resource harvesting, or tech-sector jobs.

The choice is simple--live like a super-poor old-school Indian, or assimilate into the modern world. An earlier poster mentioned the courtroom as playing by out rules. From other articles I saw they have no legitimate foundation for this lawsuit and know it. They're trying to extort cash from the region to drop it because the reservation is massively messed up.

Another poster mentioned an old treaty. Again--tough shiat. Signing a treaty 200+ years ago, basically allowing unchecked development ever since, and then trotting into court after the land is widely considered 100% not Indian land doesn't pass any muster in any court. If you want to use that argument, it's like not complaining if your neighbor builds a shed in your back yard. Eventually you lose the land to that neighbor.

Trademarks are also lost if they are not protected. Imagine Disney sitting quiet for 30 years, and then trying to run around to stamp out non-Disney use of Mickey or Donald. Same concept that has held up in court.
2012-10-13 04:05:54 PM
1 votes:

RanDomino: ShannonKW
This appears to be a non-story, if I'm reading it right. They lost their court case

FTFA
in 2010 a federal judge threw out the takeover bid, saying it would be "inherently disruptive."

I know I walked into your house with a gun and kicked you out, but you can't have it back because it would be too disruptive to me.


You've never heard of squatting? Nothings changed in this country, you can still try to take what belongs to others.

See this story

Link
2012-10-13 03:58:24 PM
1 votes:

RanDomino: FTFA
in 2010 a federal judge threw out the takeover bid, saying it would be "inherently disruptive."

I know I walked into your house with a gun and kicked you out, but you can't have it back because it would be too disruptive to me.


Well, yes, that sucks for the Indians. They lost their case and they're not getting their stuff back. Unless they have a chance of being granted the land by legislative action, that's the end of it. I'm not seeing how they can really be said to be "fighting" at this point, unless they've got another lawsuit with a chance of coming off. Yes, it's nice to advocate the cause of the right, but no matter how passionately people plead for this, they have as much chance of getting their way as they had of influencing the Casey Anthony verdict. 

Sound and fury, signifying nothing, yadda yadda.
2012-10-13 03:33:12 PM
1 votes:

muck4doo: Do cases like these ever pop up in Canada or Mexico?


Nunavut
2012-10-13 03:31:45 PM
1 votes:

Obama4Life: Nemo's Brother: Obama4Life: Why is this asinine, subby? They're only asking for the lands that were rightfully thiers, to begin with

Your boy Obama is in favor of eminent domain (along with drone attacks, warrantless arrests and assassinations of US citizens which are different issues). Why won't he and Congress just tell them to die?

But nevermind the fact that Bush signed the bill.


img.photobucket.com
2012-10-13 03:30:15 PM
1 votes:
This appears to be a non-story, if I'm reading it right. They lost their court case, and now they're on the sidewalk pleading their case to the media (and not doing so well at that either). Could one of you who are fantasizing about the white man finally getting held to his word explain how you're getting more out of this?

I wouldn't mind seeing the Indians get the land back though, FWIW.
2012-10-13 03:19:37 PM
1 votes:

kombat_unit: Fight harder next time.


They will. From hiding, with bombs, most likely. Judging from your handle I'd wager you have a little understanding of how less funded groups fight, am I right?
2012-10-13 03:18:44 PM
1 votes:

UltimaCS: Need_MindBleach: Let me let you in on a little secret....virtually all land in the world, even the land that Indian tribes lived on, was stolen from someone else. To learn more, read some ancient history, or some pre-columbian history. It's all the same, over, and over and over. Murder and conquest, or murder and the driving off of the losers. Over and over, on every region on earth inhabited by humans.

Time is what helps to heal old wounds. That and removing petty racism. You don't hear people telling ancestors of Genghis Khan that "they should be happy that their foremothers were just raped instead of killed outright."


You also don't hear people suggesting the Turks move back to central asia, either.
2012-10-13 03:16:56 PM
1 votes:
It's the same as my problem when people say we should give the Black Hills back to the Sioux: Why should we give it to the Sioux? They stole it from the Kiowa 100 years before that, in the 1770s.

The US government does owe them millions for the value of the land for breaking their treaty with them, but they shouldn't get the land.
2012-10-13 03:14:02 PM
1 votes:

Need_MindBleach: Let me let you in on a little secret....virtually all land in the world, even the land that Indian tribes lived on, was stolen from someone else. To learn more, read some ancient history, or some pre-columbian history. It's all the same, over, and over and over. Murder and conquest, or murder and the driving off of the losers. Over and over, on every region on earth inhabited by humans.


Time is what helps to heal old wounds. That and removing petty racism. You don't hear people telling ancestors of Genghis Khan that "they should be happy that their foremothers were just raped instead of killed outright."
2012-10-13 03:11:29 PM
1 votes:

Mantour: [capital-flow-watch.net image 244x261]

To expose the "noble lie", as these lands were stolen through force or fraud from the Indian tribes. And you cannot build a moral society if its foundation is built on immoral actions.


/Just a hunch.


Let me let you in on a little secret....virtually all land in the world, even the land that Indian tribes lived on, was stolen from someone else. To learn more, read some ancient history, or some pre-columbian history. It's all the same, over, and over and over. Murder and conquest, or murder and the driving off of the losers. Over and over, on every region on earth inhabited by humans.
2012-10-13 03:10:45 PM
1 votes:

The Bear: No Indian alive today had their land stolen, and no white man alive today stole said land. I'd say it's time to get over it and learn to make your own way in the world. Just like the rest of us.


You sound like the type of person who doesn't analyze how he got his start.
2012-10-13 03:10:20 PM
1 votes:

Xcott: I agree with the troll-tastic single comment in the article: just grant them full mineral rights to the region.

Just imagine how insane the fracking debate would suddenly become if all of the revenue would go to the native Americans. You'd walk into the public computer room of the Library and see people with their brains outside of their bodies.


Except this still would just perpetuate a lot of wrongs that are still going on today. The US likes to sell off mineral rights to Natives only if it comes with exclusive buying rights. In turn they get to act like they're purchasing foreign goods so it comes with fees, taxes, and paying pennies on the dollar; All without the pesky transportation costs.
2012-10-13 03:00:56 PM
1 votes:
Back rent is going to be a mofo.
2012-10-13 02:59:07 PM
1 votes:

Obama4Life: Why is this asinine, subby? They're only asking for the lands that were rightfully thiers, to begin with


Your boy Obama is in favor of eminent domain (along with drone attacks, warrantless arrests and assassinations of US citizens which are different issues). Why won't he and Congress just tell them to die?
2012-10-13 02:40:28 PM
1 votes:
Hence the reason why, Plato's Republic is not a democracy but a society ruled by "philosopher-kings"
2012-10-13 02:38:20 PM
1 votes:

Techhell: Mantour:To expose the "noble lie", as these lands were stolen through force or fraud from the Indian tribes. And you cannot build a moral society if its foundation is built on immoral actions.

I'd be curious to find out what society has been built on a foundation of moral actions.


If I remember my class in classical philosophy, in 1997, no society has ever been built on moral actions. However, the goal of any civilization is to build moral men, moral citizen. Hence the requirement of "noble lies" : "noble" because they are aimed at creating moral men and "lies" because they are not true, historically.

The easiest and probably the most known, application of a noble lie is the political process of ting the land to its people: "Land of the (you name it)". As such, people will feel that their lands is theirs and that the immoral actions that happened, in order to conquer that land are therefore excused, or I such say, justified.
2012-10-13 02:34:17 PM
1 votes:

phalamir: Decados: I am getting so damed sick and tired of all of this crap.

You all lost the war against civilization. Please either acclimate into our, the victors, society, or go off into a little corner and just die. Go away. Stop whining that every mound of dirt that's more than a foot tall is 'sacred' to you. Stop pretending that the land you forced OTHER indians out of has 'always been a spiritual heartland to our people'. Stop claiming that just because you're 1/10000000'th indian that you have 'special rights'. Stop pretending that you're not a conquered people.

The reservation system was a result of our bigotry towards native americans, and it's continued existance only perpetuates the cultural differences and divisions.

They are; they are suing for breech of contract. What you are complaining about is that they are using the white man's tool to roger the white man.

You: Be like us white people; stab others inthe back and use legalistic gooble-de-gook to rape the other guys silly!
Them: Well ... if you insist: we signed this; your designated representatives signed this; you haven't been honoring the deal; we're gonna sue you for breach of contract; bend over pretty-boy
You: Noooooooooooooooooo! That's not faaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr !


maybe they should have spoken up sooner.

maybe we should find out how many people in this tribe are left and their percentage of tribal blood.

maybe they should shut up and find a life.

maybe they should be happy that they were not completely wiped out long ago.
2012-10-13 02:34:09 PM
1 votes:
What's the most popular red w(h)ine in New York?
2012-10-13 02:33:44 PM
1 votes:
Who is this 'we' you're speaking of, subby?
2012-10-13 02:32:09 PM
1 votes:
They can have Oswego. Spent a month there. Trust me, the country would come out the winner if it gave up Oswego.
2012-10-13 02:31:51 PM
1 votes:
The land was taken by right of conquest. If they want it back, they're welcome to try reconquering it.
2012-10-13 02:31:27 PM
1 votes:
Do cases like these ever pop up in Canada or Mexico?
2012-10-13 02:31:11 PM
1 votes:
Fight harder next time.
2012-10-13 02:25:16 PM
1 votes:
So, does this mean the Onondaga have a plan to clean up the three large superfund sites on that land claim without federal dollars?

Once of them was, until recently, the most polluted lake in the world. It hasn't gotten that much better, it's just that Lake Karachay got much worse. 

(Technically, two of the Superfund sites are both Onondaga Lake, the other is in Fulton.)
2012-10-13 02:18:08 PM
1 votes:
t3.gstatic.com

What's their hole doin' in my state?

/If my state was Missouri - which it isn't
//49 stars forever!
2012-10-13 02:16:38 PM
1 votes:

Cybe: I say give it to 'em and cut federal/state funded programs to those areas to ease the tax burden on the State.


American Indians including the Seneca nation receive fed. funds. They are Americans.
2012-10-13 02:10:37 PM
1 votes:

2wolves: enik: How's no grab 'ya?

How does valid treaty grab you?


Oh, wait-- you're serious.
2012-10-13 02:03:37 PM
1 votes:
How's no grab 'ya?
2012-10-13 12:16:42 PM
1 votes:

Diogenes: SilentStrider: Why the hell would anyone want Watertown?

The Oneida Community?


I've been to Watertown, and am heading to Oswego in a couple hours for a friends wedding. Trust me, nobody wants that area.
2012-10-13 10:25:38 AM
1 votes:
Why the hell would anyone want Watertown?
 
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