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(New York Daily News)   Now that we civilized the land the Onondaga Indian Tribe of New York is fighting to reclaim 2.5 million acres, including Binghamton, Oswego, Syracuse and Watertown   (nydailynews.com) divider line 143
    More: Asinine, Watertown, Binghamton, Onondaga Indian Tribe, Onondaga Nation, Syracuse, Onondaga, New York, Central New York  
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4791 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Oct 2012 at 1:55 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-13 02:43:54 PM

Gosling: chuckufarlie: or the battlefield

Unless you're advocating driving tanks onto the reservation, get serious.


seriously, tanks would not be necessary.
 
2012-10-13 02:45:12 PM
An act of Congress may supersede a prior treaty.

/so vote Republican ;)
 
2012-10-13 02:52:40 PM

chuckufarlie: maybe they should have spoken up sooner.

maybe we should find out how many people in this tribe are left and their percentage of tribal blood.

maybe they should shut up and find a life.

maybe they should be happy that they were not completely wiped out long ago.


So, what you are saying is that if any corporation that wants to can totally null any agreement it may have with you, and you will slin off and kill yourself in a corner to avoid causing them any problems for breaking a legal contract.

They found a life; they decided to adopt the Western legal system as their model, i.e. they did what you wanted. They then realized that they had a legal claim based on the failure of other entities to love up to the terms of that contract. If the case was "John Smith is suing Edward Taylor because Edward Taylor agreed to pay John Smith for 10 acres of land, but then Edward Taylor refused to, and now John Smith is suing Edward Taylor to get his land back" how would it be any different legally than what this is?
 
2012-10-13 02:53:10 PM
My Dad's family is from Oswego, I was born in Onondaga County, went to SUNY Binghamton... Now I live in Nevada. Look up Sarah Winnemucca. This case just underscores the fact that when the Constitution said all men are created equal, they didn't mean blacks, or indigenous people, or Irish, or women, or poor.

To those who say "We won, get over it," I would say, "Learn Spanish (or Mandarin), get over it."
 
2012-10-13 02:53:44 PM
I agree with the troll-tastic single comment in the article: just grant them full mineral rights to the region.

Just imagine how insane the fracking debate would suddenly become if all of the revenue would go to the native Americans. You'd walk into the public computer room of the Library and see people with their brains outside of their bodies.
 
2012-10-13 02:53:50 PM
Why is this asinine, subby? They're only asking for the lands that were rightfully thiers, to begin with
 
2012-10-13 02:58:25 PM

metric: My Dad's family is from Oswego, I was born in Onondaga County, went to SUNY Binghamton... Now I live in Nevada. Look up Sarah Winnemucca. This case just underscores the fact that when the Constitution said all men are created equal, they didn't mean blacks, or indigenous people, or Irish, or women, or poor.

To those who say "We won, get over it," I would say, "Learn Spanish


Did.

(or Mandarin)

Working on it.

/only just
 
2012-10-13 02:59:07 PM

Obama4Life: Why is this asinine, subby? They're only asking for the lands that were rightfully thiers, to begin with


Your boy Obama is in favor of eminent domain (along with drone attacks, warrantless arrests and assassinations of US citizens which are different issues). Why won't he and Congress just tell them to die?
 
2012-10-13 02:59:18 PM

festoon: Well, considering that Europeans stole the land from them in the first place. And that they were already thought of as "civilized" 350 yrs ago - even by the European invaders' standards. And that the US Govt has broken every treaty they've ever made with them - Maybe they have a right to sue to get back what is theirs.



And considering how societies way back when occupied territory why should they have a right to sue for territory they stole?
 
2012-10-13 03:00:56 PM
Back rent is going to be a mofo.
 
2012-10-13 03:02:32 PM

Decados: I am getting so damed sick and tired of all of this crap.

You all lost the war against civilization. Please either acclimate into our, the victors, society, or go off into a little corner and just die. Go away. Stop whining that every mound of dirt that's more than a foot tall is 'sacred' to you. Stop pretending that the land you forced OTHER indians out of has 'always been a spiritual heartland to our people'. Stop claiming that just because you're 1/10000000'th indian that you have 'special rights'. Stop pretending that you're not a conquered people.

The reservation system was a result of our bigotry towards native americans, and it's continued existance only perpetuates the cultural differences and divisions.


"Would you Quintas? Would I?"
 
2012-10-13 03:03:43 PM

chuckufarlie: maybe they should have spoken up sooner.

If you spent more time with your head outside of your ass, you'd know that this has been a legal issue since such treaties were signed.

maybe we should find out how many people in this tribe are left and their percentage of tribal blood.
Why does it matter? Surely you're not so ridiculously antiquated that you still hold onto the idea that Natives (the only people in the Western Hemisphere where this matters) are only as Native as their blood allows? Would you sponsor a bill that says government handouts should only apply to people who can trace their lineage to forefathers?

maybe they should shut up and find a life.
I'm glad you're taking the country's oldest issue so seriously.

maybe they should be happy that they were not completely wiped out long ago.
I just hope you're not the kind of animal who says this to their parents/grandparents before shoving them in a home.
 
2012-10-13 03:05:56 PM

JesusJuice: The land was taken by right of conquest. If they want it back, they're welcome to try reconquering it.


Ya mean like Jesus and his ilk did to the Romans ?

They ARE trying to reconquer it ya schmuck.
 
2012-10-13 03:08:03 PM

Mantour: [capital-flow-watch.net image 244x261]

To expose the "noble lie", as these lands were stolen through force or fraud from the Indian tribes. And you cannot build a moral society if its foundation is built on immoral actions.


/Just a hunch.


And plenty of good ol' white, christian racism. Lets not forget that.
 
2012-10-13 03:10:20 PM

Xcott: I agree with the troll-tastic single comment in the article: just grant them full mineral rights to the region.

Just imagine how insane the fracking debate would suddenly become if all of the revenue would go to the native Americans. You'd walk into the public computer room of the Library and see people with their brains outside of their bodies.


Except this still would just perpetuate a lot of wrongs that are still going on today. The US likes to sell off mineral rights to Natives only if it comes with exclusive buying rights. In turn they get to act like they're purchasing foreign goods so it comes with fees, taxes, and paying pennies on the dollar; All without the pesky transportation costs.
 
2012-10-13 03:10:45 PM

The Bear: No Indian alive today had their land stolen, and no white man alive today stole said land. I'd say it's time to get over it and learn to make your own way in the world. Just like the rest of us.


You sound like the type of person who doesn't analyze how he got his start.
 
2012-10-13 03:11:29 PM

Mantour: [capital-flow-watch.net image 244x261]

To expose the "noble lie", as these lands were stolen through force or fraud from the Indian tribes. And you cannot build a moral society if its foundation is built on immoral actions.


/Just a hunch.


Let me let you in on a little secret....virtually all land in the world, even the land that Indian tribes lived on, was stolen from someone else. To learn more, read some ancient history, or some pre-columbian history. It's all the same, over, and over and over. Murder and conquest, or murder and the driving off of the losers. Over and over, on every region on earth inhabited by humans.
 
2012-10-13 03:14:02 PM

Need_MindBleach: Let me let you in on a little secret....virtually all land in the world, even the land that Indian tribes lived on, was stolen from someone else. To learn more, read some ancient history, or some pre-columbian history. It's all the same, over, and over and over. Murder and conquest, or murder and the driving off of the losers. Over and over, on every region on earth inhabited by humans.


Time is what helps to heal old wounds. That and removing petty racism. You don't hear people telling ancestors of Genghis Khan that "they should be happy that their foremothers were just raped instead of killed outright."
 
2012-10-13 03:14:53 PM

Need_MindBleach: Let me let you in on a little secret....virtually all land in the world, even the land that Indian tribes lived on, was stolen from someone else. To learn more, read some ancient history, or some pre-columbian history. It's all the same, over, and over and over. Murder and conquest, or murder and the driving off of the losers. Over and over, on every region on earth inhabited by humans.


So if some dude busts into your house with an Uzi and orders you out, I guess that means he gets to keep your house then.
 
2012-10-13 03:15:08 PM

Need_MindBleach: Mantour: [capital-flow-watch.net image 244x261]

To expose the "noble lie", as these lands were stolen through force or fraud from the Indian tribes. And you cannot build a moral society if its foundation is built on immoral actions.


/Just a hunch.

Let me let you in on a little secret....virtually all land in the world, even the land that Indian tribes lived on, was stolen from someone else. To learn more, read some ancient history, or some pre-columbian history. It's all the same, over, and over and over. Murder and conquest, or murder and the driving off of the losers. Over and over, on every region on earth inhabited by humans.


If we all give back what we've taken, I suppose we'll all have to move back to where our ancestors came from.

/Africa's gonna be crowded
 
2012-10-13 03:15:24 PM

Nemo's Brother: Obama4Life: Why is this asinine, subby? They're only asking for the lands that were rightfully thiers, to begin with

Your boy Obama is in favor of eminent domain (along with drone attacks, warrantless arrests and assassinations of US citizens which are different issues). Why won't he and Congress just tell them to die?


But nevermind the fact that Bush signed the bill.
 
2012-10-13 03:16:56 PM
It's the same as my problem when people say we should give the Black Hills back to the Sioux: Why should we give it to the Sioux? They stole it from the Kiowa 100 years before that, in the 1770s.

The US government does owe them millions for the value of the land for breaking their treaty with them, but they shouldn't get the land.
 
2012-10-13 03:18:43 PM
These injuns are funny

i1253.photobucket.com
 
2012-10-13 03:18:44 PM

UltimaCS: Need_MindBleach: Let me let you in on a little secret....virtually all land in the world, even the land that Indian tribes lived on, was stolen from someone else. To learn more, read some ancient history, or some pre-columbian history. It's all the same, over, and over and over. Murder and conquest, or murder and the driving off of the losers. Over and over, on every region on earth inhabited by humans.

Time is what helps to heal old wounds. That and removing petty racism. You don't hear people telling ancestors of Genghis Khan that "they should be happy that their foremothers were just raped instead of killed outright."


You also don't hear people suggesting the Turks move back to central asia, either.
 
2012-10-13 03:19:16 PM
the indigenous indian of land later called the USA are first line proof that we the great unwashed will never rise up and revolt against the wealthy power elitists who own and control the country. my daydreams of thugs who wear badges and scum who hold political office being caged and paraded in the streets, decapitated and displayed on pike and pole, the streets running red with blood as the citizens right the wrongs will never take place. just one more year that Santa doesn't give me what i want the most.
 
2012-10-13 03:19:37 PM

kombat_unit: Fight harder next time.


They will. From hiding, with bombs, most likely. Judging from your handle I'd wager you have a little understanding of how less funded groups fight, am I right?
 
2012-10-13 03:21:04 PM

festoon: Well, considering that Europeans stole the land from them in the first place. And that they were already thought of as "civilized" 350 yrs ago - even by the European invaders' standards. And that the US Govt has broken every treaty they've ever made with them - Maybe they have a right to sue to get back what is theirs.


I'm gonna need to see a deed.
 
2012-10-13 03:21:04 PM

Launch Code: These injuns are funny

[i1253.photobucket.com image 128x83]


GoGo Gophers won't be appearing on tv again anytime soon. Or those Japanese mice.
 
2012-10-13 03:27:29 PM
What Americans consider "civilizing" the land:

randylewis.org

i.telegraph.co.uk

cf.juggle-images.com
 
2012-10-13 03:29:00 PM
The Bear
No Indian alive today had their land stolen, and no white man alive today stole said land. I'd say it's time to get over it and learn to make your own way in the world. Just like the rest of us.

I, for one, know that I got no special advantages from being white. Everyone's bootstraps are exactly as long as mine. No one lacks quality schools, a stable family and social upbringing, and ready access to economic opportunity. Nope, nobody at all.


Techhell
I'd be curious to find out what society has been built on a foundation of moral actions.

Everyone else does it wrong, so why shouldn't we?


Need_MindBleach
Let me let you in on a little secret....virtually all land in the world, even the land that Indian tribes lived on, was stolen from someone else. To learn more, read some ancient history, or some pre-columbian history. It's all the same, over, and over and over. Murder and conquest, or murder and the driving off of the losers. Over and over, on every region on earth inhabited by humans.

Which makes it OK!
 
2012-10-13 03:30:01 PM
I for one look forward to the formation of NAN.
 
2012-10-13 03:30:15 PM
This appears to be a non-story, if I'm reading it right. They lost their court case, and now they're on the sidewalk pleading their case to the media (and not doing so well at that either). Could one of you who are fantasizing about the white man finally getting held to his word explain how you're getting more out of this?

I wouldn't mind seeing the Indians get the land back though, FWIW.
 
2012-10-13 03:31:45 PM

Obama4Life: Nemo's Brother: Obama4Life: Why is this asinine, subby? They're only asking for the lands that were rightfully thiers, to begin with

Your boy Obama is in favor of eminent domain (along with drone attacks, warrantless arrests and assassinations of US citizens which are different issues). Why won't he and Congress just tell them to die?

But nevermind the fact that Bush signed the bill.


img.photobucket.com
 
2012-10-13 03:33:12 PM

muck4doo: Do cases like these ever pop up in Canada or Mexico?


Nunavut
 
2012-10-13 03:34:57 PM
ShannonKW
This appears to be a non-story, if I'm reading it right. They lost their court case

FTFA
in 2010 a federal judge threw out the takeover bid, saying it would be "inherently disruptive."

I know I walked into your house with a gun and kicked you out, but you can't have it back because it would be too disruptive to me.
 
2012-10-13 03:40:50 PM
I think they should get, but they should be forced to pay the fair market value for it. I'll start the bidding at 25 bucks.
 
2012-10-13 03:45:10 PM

puckrock2000: muck4doo: Do cases like these ever pop up in Canada or Mexico?

Nunavut


Interesting. Thanks.
 
2012-10-13 03:47:16 PM
I would say that waiting 183 years to file just might be beyond any limiting statute and could be taken as tacit approval.
 
2012-10-13 03:54:29 PM

austin_millbarge: What Americans consider "civilizing" the land:

[randylewis.org image 750x562]

[i.telegraph.co.uk image 460x288]

[cf.juggle-images.com image 600x373]


You said "Taco Bell" twice.
 
2012-10-13 03:58:24 PM

RanDomino: FTFA
in 2010 a federal judge threw out the takeover bid, saying it would be "inherently disruptive."

I know I walked into your house with a gun and kicked you out, but you can't have it back because it would be too disruptive to me.


Well, yes, that sucks for the Indians. They lost their case and they're not getting their stuff back. Unless they have a chance of being granted the land by legislative action, that's the end of it. I'm not seeing how they can really be said to be "fighting" at this point, unless they've got another lawsuit with a chance of coming off. Yes, it's nice to advocate the cause of the right, but no matter how passionately people plead for this, they have as much chance of getting their way as they had of influencing the Casey Anthony verdict. 

Sound and fury, signifying nothing, yadda yadda.
 
2012-10-13 04:05:54 PM

RanDomino: ShannonKW
This appears to be a non-story, if I'm reading it right. They lost their court case

FTFA
in 2010 a federal judge threw out the takeover bid, saying it would be "inherently disruptive."

I know I walked into your house with a gun and kicked you out, but you can't have it back because it would be too disruptive to me.


You've never heard of squatting? Nothings changed in this country, you can still try to take what belongs to others.

See this story

Link
 
2012-10-13 04:16:53 PM
Let Congress make them all full American citizens and abolish the reservation system...problem resolved.
 
2012-10-13 04:21:56 PM

phojo1946: Let Congress make them all full American citizens


o_O
 
2012-10-13 04:46:51 PM
Tough shiat. Show me one reservation that is doing something constructive and even remotely self-sustaining WITHOUT biatching about poverty or relying on casinos. The Native American culture is not at the same level of maturation to survive in modern society via manufacturing, natural resource harvesting, or tech-sector jobs.

The choice is simple--live like a super-poor old-school Indian, or assimilate into the modern world. An earlier poster mentioned the courtroom as playing by out rules. From other articles I saw they have no legitimate foundation for this lawsuit and know it. They're trying to extort cash from the region to drop it because the reservation is massively messed up.

Another poster mentioned an old treaty. Again--tough shiat. Signing a treaty 200+ years ago, basically allowing unchecked development ever since, and then trotting into court after the land is widely considered 100% not Indian land doesn't pass any muster in any court. If you want to use that argument, it's like not complaining if your neighbor builds a shed in your back yard. Eventually you lose the land to that neighbor.

Trademarks are also lost if they are not protected. Imagine Disney sitting quiet for 30 years, and then trying to run around to stamp out non-Disney use of Mickey or Donald. Same concept that has held up in court.
 
2012-10-13 04:47:03 PM
I knew I shouldn't have gone to the main page. Yeesh.
 
2012-10-13 04:49:27 PM
Wow.

I lived for a year in Watertown as a kid.

I've never found a single other person who knew of its existence before this thread.
 
2012-10-13 05:00:35 PM

EatCritAndDie: Wow.

I lived for a year in Watertown as a kid.

I've never found a single other person who knew of its existence before this thread.


Grew up in Watertown. Joined the Army in my junior year of HS to get out if there.
 
2012-10-13 05:17:54 PM
yeh eff those native savages. they deserve nothing and will like it!

might makes right, amirite?
 
2012-10-13 05:18:29 PM
The Iroqouis fought for the British. They lost. Fark them.
 
2012-10-13 05:42:16 PM

LabGrrl: (Technically, two of the Superfund sites are both Onondaga Lake, the other is in Fulton.)


Don't forget Endicott
 
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