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(AZCentral)   Obama administration silent on 3 states initiatives to legalize recreational marijuana. Could Obama's secret plan involve turning the nation into drug addicts?   (azcentral.com) divider line 264
    More: Scary, obama, Controlled Substances Act, United States Code, school zones, drug czar, Obama administration, United States, marijuana  
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2314 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 Oct 2012 at 4:08 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-12 05:23:40 PM

Amos Quito: mongbiohazard: ferretman: I don't think so:

Federal Law trumps State Law

Federal law is supreme over state laws yes... but that only matters if you have the resources to actually enforce those laws. If several states were to fully legalize pot, refuse to arrest or prosecute for it, then there isn't much the feds could do.


Just like they couldn't enforce a national speed limit (55), or a national drinking age (21) etc, right?

They don't have to physically enforce the laws, they just threaten to withhold federal funds (highway money), and the states cave.


Ah, but that would require an act of Congress and would trigger a national fight discussion over MJ. There is no way the DEA and the prohibitionists want that. They want to maintain the status quo for as long as possible. The writing is on the wall and they know it.
 
2012-10-12 05:24:01 PM

Amos Quito: Too easy to grow = too hard to tax.


Tomatoes are easy to grow but I still pay money for them.

I sure as hell wouldn't waste my time cultivating plants when I could just run to the weed store and pick up a pack of joints.
 
2012-10-12 05:25:03 PM

jigger: So I have to pay a tax on my own homegrown tomatoes?


Oh, I think I see what you're saying now. You want people get a tax stamp to grow , is that it? Ironically, this is how the feds made what was a ubiquitous crop at the time, illegal in the first place.
 
2012-10-12 05:25:10 PM

mongbiohazard: ferretman: I don't think so:

Federal Law trumps State Law

Federal law is supreme over state laws yes... but that only matters if you have the resources to actually enforce those laws. If several states were to fully legalize pot, refuse to arrest or prosecute for it, then there isn't much the feds could do.


It depends. The feds can bribe the states with road funding, etc. like they do with all sorts of stuff.
 
2012-10-12 05:25:41 PM

MSFT: Eligarf: He's not talking about it because it is a non-issue for the POTUS. It has nothing to do with his jorb or his responsibilities as president, so his opinion means exactly dick. He knows full well that if it comes down to it the SCOTUS will be making the ruling on it, not the president, and he knows that if/when that happens he will be long gone anyway. So what would be the point of him getting involved with it, or even talking about it? The only thing it would accomplish is further national divisiveness. I actually think not talking about it shows a lot of responsibility and discipline on his part.

He's worth re-electing based on SCOTUS appointments alone. Anyone have any idea how many we expect to lose over the next 4yrs?


Possibly as many as five.

Ginsburg is 79 and I think we can count on her retiring sometime in the next 4 years, regardless of the nature of the administration.

Scalia is 76 and won't voluntarily retire under a Democratic president, but would probably retire if Romney wins.

Thomas is only 64, but may feel the heat over his conduct. He could take the assurance of a Romney-appointed successor and follow Scalia.

Kennedy is 76 and Breyer is 74, so who knows.

There's almost no chance of replacing Kagan, Sotomayor, Roberts, and Alito.
 
2012-10-12 05:26:01 PM
i512.photobucket.com
 
2012-10-12 05:26:51 PM

slayer199: ShawnDoc: Its very important that weed not just be decriminalized, but sold through retail (Dispensaries, government owned "liquor" stores or whatever) and regulated. Its important that it be coming from a safe source (no hazardous pesticides), the proceeds not be going to organized crime, that customer know exactly what they are getting, and that they are easily able to procure it.

That's the problem with the Fed. Them going after dispensaries keeps the mj out of the hands of people who need it, while at the same time driving drug money to Mexican drug lords and increasing the risk of death or injury due to contaminates.

I don't disagree. But outright legalization undercuts the Fed going after the dispensaries and allowing individuals to grow their own for personal consumption. The Fed has LONG overstepped the limitations in the Constitution by trying to tie everything to the Commerce Clause. In this case, I hope the states shove it right up the Fed's asses.


Supreme Court has already ruled the feds regulation of drugs is constitutional.
 
2012-10-12 05:27:03 PM

fqhollis: Y'know who is one of the prominent supporters of the Colorado amendment to regulate marijuana like alcohol?

Staunch conservacritter Tom freakin' Tancredo.

Y'know who is one of the prominent members of the opposition to the amendment?

Former brewpub owner and current Democratic governor John Hickenlooper.

Strange world. Maybe Tancredo's for it because he thinks it would screw "the Mexicans" or something. Maybe Hick's against it because he has aspirations for higher office.

Linkage


Well, Hickenlooper has come out against Amendment 64 (hypocrite), but he isn't campaigning against it. So, I'm not sure calling him part of the opposition is fair. Ken Buck, Tea Party/small government proponent, however....
 
2012-10-12 05:27:51 PM

logistic: Weaver95: I suppose it wouldn't matter if I mentioned that cannabis isn't addictive...?

Tell that to the literal millions of 6 year olds who die every single day due to shooting up marijuana. Every second of every day, thousands die from overdosing on pots.

[shambhalatimes.org image 400x415]


i.imgur.com
 
2012-10-12 05:28:31 PM

tricycleracer: Amos Quito: Too easy to grow = too hard to tax.

Tomatoes are easy to grow but I still pay money for them.

I sure as hell wouldn't waste my time cultivating plants when I could just run to the weed store and pick up a pack of joints.



You may not want to grow it, but some of your buddies likely would, and wouldn't you rather support a friend's happy hobby than pay taxes on Phillip Morris / RJ Reynolds frankenweed?

/Most people would
 
2012-10-12 05:28:39 PM

jigger: mongbiohazard: ferretman: I don't think so:

Federal Law trumps State Law

Federal law is supreme over state laws yes... but that only matters if you have the resources to actually enforce those laws. If several states were to fully legalize pot, refuse to arrest or prosecute for it, then there isn't much the feds could do.

It depends. The feds can bribe the states with road funding, etc. like they do with all sorts of stuff.


Coincidentally enough, the SCOTUS just laid down a marker about that in the Obamacare ruling.
 
2012-10-12 05:28:44 PM

Amos Quito:
There's a slight problem with that plan. 

Too easy to grow = too hard to tax.


I love beer but don't take the time to brew my own. Same goes for weed.
Pretty sure I'm not in the minority when it comes to this.
 
2012-10-12 05:30:02 PM

Karma Curmudgeon: jigger: So I have to pay a tax on my own homegrown tomatoes?

Oh, I think I see what you're saying now. You want people get a tax stamp to grow , is that it? Ironically, this is how the feds made what was a ubiquitous crop at the time, illegal in the first place.


Huh? No. Anything involving permits, stamps, taxes or anything like that would mean that it was "legal."

All I'm saying is let people grow some harmless plants, sell them if they want, and use them if they so choose, and don't go chasing after them for permits, licenses, taxes, and fees. Don't make it "legal" just make it not criminal.
 
2012-10-12 05:30:48 PM

jigger: mongbiohazard: ferretman: I don't think so:

Federal Law trumps State Law

Federal law is supreme over state laws yes... but that only matters if you have the resources to actually enforce those laws. If several states were to fully legalize pot, refuse to arrest or prosecute for it, then there isn't much the feds could do.

It depends. The feds can bribe the states with road funding, etc. like they do with all sorts of stuff.



First tomatoes, now road funding...?

I suppose I'll have to add you to my faves - just to keep an eye on you.
 
2012-10-12 05:30:54 PM

Amos Quito: tricycleracer: Amos Quito: Too easy to grow = too hard to tax.

Tomatoes are easy to grow but I still pay money for them.

I sure as hell wouldn't waste my time cultivating plants when I could just run to the weed store and pick up a pack of joints.


You may not want to grow it, but some of your buddies likely would, and wouldn't you rather support a friend's happy hobby than pay taxes on Phillip Morris / RJ Reynolds frankenweed?

/Most people would


Look, I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm just saying that I really think there is a market out there. If McDonalds can sell bland hamburgers to the American public, there's a market for Marlboro Greens.
 
2012-10-12 05:31:53 PM

Karma Curmudgeon: jigger: mongbiohazard: ferretman: I don't think so:

Federal Law trumps State Law

Federal law is supreme over state laws yes... but that only matters if you have the resources to actually enforce those laws. If several states were to fully legalize pot, refuse to arrest or prosecute for it, then there isn't much the feds could do.

It depends. The feds can bribe the states with road funding, etc. like they do with all sorts of stuff.

Coincidentally enough, the SCOTUS just laid down a marker about that in the Obamacare ruling.


Oh yeah! I forgot about that. Hmmm.
 
2012-10-12 05:34:20 PM

Ow! That was my feelings!: Well, Hickenlooper has come out against Amendment 64 (hypocrite), but he isn't campaigning against it.


Fair point. He's been very public on his position, though. I think he's trying to stay out of it, but, as governor, he really can't.
 
2012-10-12 05:34:46 PM

MSFT: Amos Quito:
There's a slight problem with that plan. 

Too easy to grow = too hard to tax.

I love beer but don't take the time to brew my own. Same goes for weed.
Pretty sure I'm not in the minority when it comes to this.



Ask New Yorkers about cigarette taxes. Bootlegging has gone wild there.

People seem to think the GOV will be able to tax the shiat out of weed and make a killing off of dopers, but beyond a certain point you create a black market, and all the FUN (crime, violence, corruption, etc) that goes with it.


/Also, homestyle weed is much easier than beer
 
2012-10-12 05:35:02 PM

jigger: Karma Curmudgeon: jigger: So I have to pay a tax on my own homegrown tomatoes?

Oh, I think I see what you're saying now. You want people get a tax stamp to grow , is that it? Ironically, this is how the feds made what was a ubiquitous crop at the time, illegal in the first place.

Huh? No. Anything involving permits, stamps, taxes or anything like that would mean that it was "legal."

All I'm saying is let people grow some harmless plants, sell them if they want, and use them if they so choose, and don't go chasing after them for permits, licenses, taxes, and fees. Don't make it "legal" just make it not criminal.


So someone gets to enforce the law, just not the government?

/doublespeak is how we got the drug war, gun bans, and a bunch of other useless things.
/just make it legal and leave people the fark alone.
 
2012-10-12 05:36:15 PM

Amos Quito: jigger: Karma Curmudgeon: jigger: Think of it the same way growing tomatoes in your backyard and eating them for dinner is decriminalized.

That's because those aren't decriminalized, they're legal.

So I have to pay a tax on my own homegrown tomatoes? Is there even a law on the books regarding homegrown tomatoes. You know what I'll bet there is, knowing people's general mentality.


1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-10-12 05:36:45 PM

tricycleracer: Look, I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm just saying that I really think there is a market out there. If McDonalds can sell bland hamburgers to the American public, there's a market for Marlboro Greens.


I agree. I think it'll be a lot like beer. Some folks will always buy the cheapest beer in the store. Some folks look for the most finely made handcrafted beers they can get their hands on. Still others will brew their own because the store bought stuff just doesn't have the love and care they would put into it themselves.

I don't see why marijuana would be any different.
 
2012-10-12 05:36:46 PM
The drug dealers will lobby hard against this, just like they did when there was a similar measure in California. They're terrified of competition.
 
2012-10-12 05:37:14 PM
I think it would be funny if the munchie manufacturing industries would start and heavily fund a pro-legalization SuperPAC.
 
2012-10-12 05:38:01 PM

Gyrfalcon:
I'm moving there.

To a dugout in the wilds of the Yukon Territories. As far from other people as I can possibly manage. And I'll kill anything that approaches on less than three legs.


My nickname is "Tripod". ; )
 
2012-10-12 05:38:56 PM

jigger: All I'm saying is let people grow some harmless plants, sell them if they want, and use them if they so choose, and don't go chasing after them for permits, licenses, taxes, and fees. Don't make it "legal" just make it not criminal.


What you wrote in the first sentence is outright legalization. I'm not sure why or where you're trying to draw a distinction between pot and tomatoes, or why you don't want to say that marijuana should be legalized when that is exactly what you're describing. I thought you were suggesting that a tax should be paid on homegrown marijuana and differentiating that with the by using the example of tomatoes.

/tomatoes
 
2012-10-12 05:40:54 PM

fqhollis: Ow! That was my feelings!: Well, Hickenlooper has come out against Amendment 64 (hypocrite), but he isn't campaigning against it.

Fair point. He's been very public on his position, though. I think he's trying to stay out of it, but, as governor, he really can't.


Also keep in mind that Hickenlooper is very popular among national Dems and has potential as a national candidate. I think he has thoughts on a possible POTUS run one day. Gotta play it safe...
 
2012-10-12 05:42:11 PM

tricycleracer: Amos Quito: tricycleracer: Amos Quito: Too easy to grow = too hard to tax.

Tomatoes are easy to grow but I still pay money for them.

I sure as hell wouldn't waste my time cultivating plants when I could just run to the weed store and pick up a pack of joints.


You may not want to grow it, but some of your buddies likely would, and wouldn't you rather support a friend's happy hobby than pay taxes on Phillip Morris / RJ Reynolds frankenweed?

/Most people would

Look, I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm just saying that I really think there is a market out there. If McDonalds can sell bland hamburgers to the American public, there's a market for Marlboro Greens.


IMO, there is a market. There would be craft strains sold that the mass producers just couldn't handle profitably. Hell, I love that I can walk into a dispensary right now and walk out with a half oz of top shelf bud and a bag of thc infused popcorn.
 
2012-10-12 05:43:09 PM

way south: So someone gets to enforce the law, just not the government?


What? What law?

way south: /doublespeak is how we got the drug war, gun bans, and a bunch of other useless things.
/just make it legal and leave people the fark alone.


Doublespeak is calling a criminal offense a "civil infraction."

Fine, "legalize" it, if you want to call it that. But when most people put it that way they also imagine this complicated regulatory structure built up around it. So even when it's "legal" there will still be some people who will run afoul of those regulations and be treated as criminals and punished accordingly.
 
2012-10-12 05:45:22 PM

logistic: I'd miss the beach, but I could live in Colorado I think.


Yeah, but your debate performance might suffer. Now that I think about it, that's a risk we are willing to take. C'mon up here, I'll roll ya a fattie.
 
2012-10-12 05:45:32 PM

Karma Curmudgeon: jigger: All I'm saying is let people grow some harmless plants, sell them if they want, and use them if they so choose, and don't go chasing after them for permits, licenses, taxes, and fees. Don't make it "legal" just make it not criminal.

What you wrote in the first sentence is outright legalization. I'm not sure why or where you're trying to draw a distinction between pot and tomatoes, or why you don't want to say that marijuana should be legalized when that is exactly what you're describing. I thought you were suggesting that a tax should be paid on homegrown marijuana and differentiating that with the by using the example of tomatoes.

/tomatoes


"Legalizing" involves all the permits, licenses, etc. Growing your own veggies and eating them isn't "legalized" it's non-criminal.
 
2012-10-12 05:46:40 PM

Amos Quito: Just like they couldn't enforce a national speed limit (55), or a national drinking age (21) etc, right?

They don't have to physically enforce the laws, they just threaten to withhold federal funds (highway money), and the states cave.


That worked great in the seventies when the states were receiving more federal funds than they were contributing. What happens if the Federal govt. threatens to cut off funds from a state that pays in more than it gets back, like WA or CO?
 
2012-10-12 05:47:08 PM

Amos Quito: MSFT: Amos Quito:
There's a slight problem with that plan. 

Too easy to grow = too hard to tax.

I love beer but don't take the time to brew my own. Same goes for weed.
Pretty sure I'm not in the minority when it comes to this.


Ask New Yorkers about cigarette taxes. Bootlegging has gone wild there.

People seem to think the GOV will be able to tax the shiat out of weed and make a killing off of dopers, but beyond a certain point you create a black market, and all the FUN (crime, violence, corruption, etc) that goes with it.


/Also, homestyle weed is much easier than beer


Tell that to someone who has been dealing with spider mites for several grow cycles. And let's not forget several hundred dollars in a decent lighting system, quality starter seeds, a grow room/ closet that can handle the heat from the lamps, three months to kill....

Some people will grow it just like some people brew their own beer, but why you think this will be a majority is beyond me. I make the most amazing BBQ in my smoker, but somehow all these crappy restaurants are still in business...
 
2012-10-12 05:49:28 PM
Not sure if anybody mentioned this yet, but I think Holder is purposely not answering and is deciding that the states' rights are more important, secretly hoping it passes. If it does, a lot of people will be pissed/paranoid, whatever, and Holder will say that too much government is not going to help the states. The Teabaggers believe that smaller government is the way to go. If they go against what they preach, they will out themselves as hypocrites.
 
2012-10-12 05:49:58 PM

jigger: Ego edo infantia cattus: Yeah, my guess is that jigger lives in the middle of nowhere and has never had to deal with a paranoid grower or major drug dealer in his or her life.

Would they be so paranoid if there weren't a risk of a long prison sentence. And yes, I knew a guy who owned a couple houses in the hood, where the whole house was filled with plants. And yeah, he was paranoid, but he stayed super low key obviously. He didn't get into any "turf wars." It's not like there was some gang selling weed on the corner in the hood and had to fight over the corner. Jeez.


I've seen many different types of dealers and growers, and I'm willing to bet that your "couple houses in the hood" grower had a few firearms around. The Mexican cartels aren't the only criminal element that Prohibition causes. There are some good mom and pop growers out there, but for every one of them there's a dozen tweekers and cartel grows in the woods, and believe me, people go missing because of that shiat. One of my towns city council members got killed because he stumbled on a grow while hiking in our state forest, and I've heard a few stories about the cartel grows up here too. The small dealers don't perpetrate too many violent crimes, but then there's the ones that are dealing more than weed. If we legalized it, normal average smokers wouldn't have to deal with scumbags that have a gun hidden between their couch cushions.
 
2012-10-12 05:50:20 PM
I just shot up three pots into the webbing between my toes, so I'm getting a kick out of these comments

/no you're a towel
 
2012-10-12 05:50:39 PM

CalamitousCrasher: IMO, there is a market. There would be craft strains sold that the mass producers just couldn't handle profitably. Hell, I love that I can walk into a dispensary right now and walk out with a half oz of top shelf bud and a bag of thc infused popcorn.


Not to mention not everyone wants to learn the ins and outs of these things... in fact, some people just want to get high.
 
2012-10-12 05:50:53 PM

Ball Peen Hammer Laxative: Not sure if anybody mentioned this yet, but I think Holder is purposely not answering and is deciding that the states' rights are more important, secretly hoping it passes. If it does, a lot of people will be pissed/paranoid, whatever, and Holder will say that too much government is not going to help the states. The Teabaggers believe that smaller government is the way to go. If they go against what they preach, they will out themselves as hypocrites.


Again?
 
2012-10-12 05:52:34 PM
Nah.
I mean it's marijuana, you can't get but psychologically addicted. Aspirin and tylenol are a bigger threat to your health and more addictive.
Unless this is all a cover while Obama channels Reagan and the CIA and starts pushing crack in white neighborhoods.
 
2012-10-12 05:53:28 PM

logistic: I'd miss the beach, but I could live in Colorado I think.


Fark you. We have enough people here.


I'm voting Yes on Amendment 64. I haven't even read it yet, but I think I am for it.
 
2012-10-12 05:53:51 PM

jigger: HeartBurnKid: jigger: MSFT: stewmadness: Yeaaaahhhh, somthing else legalized that is terrible for you.

No kidding. We legalize anything else and people will start calling this "the land of the free" or some BS.
I don't know about you, but if I wanted to be free I would move to Canada.

How about instead of legalize, decriminalize. Let the government just stay out of it. In addition to not arresting people or harassing people for growing it, selling it, possessing it, or using it, they also don't tax it, subsidize it, etc. Just make it not a crime and leave people alone.

So you're for legalization.

/hint: "decriminalize" only refers to posession; the growers would still be farked

Decriminalize growing, selling, possessing, and using.


So, in other words, legalize.
 
2012-10-12 05:54:33 PM

vernonFL: What are the bad neighborhoods in Denver? It could be like Hamsterdam from The Wire.

[www.ejumpcut.org image 280x218]


There are already plenty of dispensaries in the nice areas so it doesn't really matter. But if you were serious, then just hit Colfax ave.
 
2012-10-12 05:55:14 PM
BTW, this a pretty good book regarding the complexity of growing if anyone wants to read it. Those good 'ol boys in Kentucky know a thing or two about making things under prohibition, that's for sure.
ecx.images-amazon.com
 
2012-10-12 05:56:14 PM

MSFT: I make the most amazing BBQ in my smoker,...


I'm listening....
 
2012-10-12 05:56:26 PM

MSFT: Amos Quito: MSFT: Amos Quito:
There's a slight problem with that plan. 

Too easy to grow = too hard to tax.

I love beer but don't take the time to brew my own. Same goes for weed.
Pretty sure I'm not in the minority when it comes to this.


Ask New Yorkers about cigarette taxes. Bootlegging has gone wild there.

People seem to think the GOV will be able to tax the shiat out of weed and make a killing off of dopers, but beyond a certain point you create a black market, and all the FUN (crime, violence, corruption, etc) that goes with it.


/Also, homestyle weed is much easier than beer

Tell that to someone who has been dealing with spider mites for several grow cycles. And let's not forget several hundred dollars in a decent lighting system, quality starter seeds, a grow room/ closet that can handle the heat from the lamps, three months to kill....

Some people will grow it just like some people brew their own beer, but why you think this will be a majority is beyond me. I make the most amazing BBQ in my smoker, but somehow all these crappy restaurants are still in business...



They wouldn't be if they mandated $20.00 per plate in taxes in BBQ restaurants, thinking it's going to be a cash cow.

/Pun intended?
 
2012-10-12 05:57:17 PM

Amos Quito: /Pun intended?


If not, you should be ashamed of yourself.
 
2012-10-12 05:57:56 PM

HeartBurnKid: jigger: HeartBurnKid: jigger: MSFT: stewmadness: Yeaaaahhhh, somthing else legalized that is terrible for you.

No kidding. We legalize anything else and people will start calling this "the land of the free" or some BS.
I don't know about you, but if I wanted to be free I would move to Canada.

How about instead of legalize, decriminalize. Let the government just stay out of it. In addition to not arresting people or harassing people for growing it, selling it, possessing it, or using it, they also don't tax it, subsidize it, etc. Just make it not a crime and leave people alone.

So you're for legalization.

/hint: "decriminalize" only refers to posession; the growers would still be farked

Decriminalize growing, selling, possessing, and using.

So, in other words, legalize.



How about UNcriminalize?
 
2012-10-12 05:58:19 PM

jigger: "Legalizing" involves all the permits, licenses, etc. Growing your own veggies and eating them isn't "legalized" it's non-criminal.


Legalized just means there's no law against it, and doesn't automatically imply regulation, thought most people would assume it would be regulated because other legal drugs are regulated. To be clear, you should say you're for the the unregulated, untaxed legalization of marijuana, not decriminalization, which means something entirely different than what you were trying to say.
 
2012-10-12 05:58:51 PM
Marijuana is the cash cow of the privatized prison system.
 
2012-10-12 05:59:20 PM

Tickle Mittens: MSFT: I make the most amazing BBQ in my smoker,...

I'm listening....


The smell alone would make you cry. Not to brag but it's the one thing I do pretty well.
 
2012-10-12 06:02:05 PM

Amos Quito:
They wouldn't be if they mandated $20.00 per plate in taxes in BBQ restaurants, thinking it's going to be a cash cow.


Pretty sure it would fall under the same taxation as booze and cigs.
People will complain about the cost all the way up to the cash register, same as they do now.
 
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