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(Atlanta Journal Constitution)   The EU wins Nobel Peace Prize. No word on which country will get to use the prize money to pay off debt   ( ajc.com) divider line
    More: Spiffy, Nobel Peace Prize, Norwegian Nobel Committee, french foreign minister, Geert Wilders, European Council, human rights group, Jagland, Council of Europe  
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1374 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Oct 2012 at 10:41 AM (5 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-12 11:21:34 AM  

footshot: WorldCitizen:

And those countries were part of the EU? No. What is one of the driving forces for those countries to clean up their acts and turn people over to the Hague for war crimes committed during that time? Desire for EU membership and meeting EU requirements for joining.

Dude, you're not doing it right. As an American Farker discussing anything vaguely European, your duty is to be ignorant, throw around baseless stereotypes, and claim until you're blue in the face that the US is better in every conceivable manner.

Buck up your act buddy!


Sorry.

MY TRIBE IS NUMBER ONE AND YOURS SUCKS!
 
2012-10-12 11:25:28 AM  

BigNumber12: WorldCitizen: They have no real threats to their territory.

Uh... you know how they got to be that way, right?


By joining forces within NATO? Did I say anywhere that being within the NATO security umbrella hasn't been a huge benefit for Europe and, thus, the EU? I don't think I did.

And I hope this wasn't going to head to the "US saved your asses from the Nazis so grovel at our feet" line of thinking completely forgetting about the Soviet front in the war. Of course, the thing that probably kept the Soviets from then making a devastated Western Europe into its sphere of influence after WWII was the US, and later, NATO presence.
 
2012-10-12 11:25:57 AM  

DammitIForgotMyLogin: indylaw: Sure, but why not award the NPP to the people who were responsible for the Maastricht Treaty? Awarding the prize to a trade/monetary union is even sillier than awarding it to a President who hasn't had a chance to actually do anything yet. It's obviously, nakedly political.

Because it was the Treaty of Rome which set up the European Union, not the Maastricht treaty. As that was signed in 1958, it's a reasonable assumption that most of the original signatories are dead by now.

It's not the first time that the Peace prize has been awarded to a group rather than to a person (The Institute of International law won it in 1904, the Permanent International Peace bureau in 1910, the ICRC in 1917 & 1944, as well as others) and, for all its many and varied faults, the EU has been remarkably successful at promoting peace.


The Treaty of Rome created the European Economic Community, which is the precursor to the EU. The Maastricht Treaty (formally known as the Treaty on European Union) created the EU.

I get that organizations sometimes receive the prize, but the EU is a pseudo-nation. It just strikes me as strange - the EU is the *result* of the kind of work that the peace prize seeks to honor, not the group that created the work.
 
2012-10-12 11:28:55 AM  

indylaw: The Treaty of Rome created the European Economic Community, which is the precursor to the EU. The Maastricht Treaty (formally known as the Treaty on European Union) created the EU.


Damnit. Yeah, you're right, my bad. I always kinda consider the EEC and the EU to be basically the same thing under a different name.

/apologies
 
2012-10-12 11:32:40 AM  

kendelrio:

USA!!USA!!USA!!USA!!USA!!

cryingeagle.jpg
cryingindian.jpg
dontmesswithtexasbygod.gif


WorldCitizen: MY TRIBE IS NUMBER ONE AND YOURS SUCKS!


Thank you kindly, things feel more familiar and comfortable now :)
 
2012-10-12 11:35:57 AM  
I've found that the Nobel Peace Prize really vindicates itself by bringing out the stupidity in its detractors.
 
2012-10-12 11:38:46 AM  

WorldCitizen: Well, I would say their biggest problem is that they are trying to function off of the equivalent of the the US Articles of Confederation, and even our Founders over 200 years ago figured out what a bad idea that was.


The difference is that European states had a long history of being fully functional autonomous units before the EU, while the various states of the US didn't have anywhere near the economic or political organization to survive on their own, especially as they were trying to walk a very fine line to prevent foreign domination. European states have managed to live together for centuries, but they decided that constantly blowing each other up was getting old, so they joined together, but maintained autonomy. The EU is a successful model in that situation.

Now, a monetary union without a unified monetary policy- that's just stupid.

SphericalTime: Great. My boyfriend is a member of a group that just won the Nobel Peace Prize? Crap. His ego is never going to fit through a doorway again.


Yes, but now you get to fark a nobel peace prize winner, and we all know that that's a sexy, sexy demographic. 

[Anyone have a suggestive pic of Jimmy Carter?]
 
2012-10-12 11:43:39 AM  

WorldCitizen: BigNumber12: WorldCitizen: They have no real threats to their territory.

Uh... you know how they got to be that way, right?

By joining forces within NATO? Did I say anywhere that being within the NATO security umbrella hasn't been a huge benefit for Europe and, thus, the EU? I don't think I did.

And I hope this wasn't going to head to the "US saved your asses from the Nazis so grovel at our feet" line of thinking completely forgetting about the Soviet front in the war.



Nope, I'm well aware of who kept 75%+ of the Nazis occupied during WWII. I was going to say:

A) Nuclear deterrant. Protected by America's arsenal until they could get their own weapons up and running in 1952 for the UK and 1960 for France, ffs.

B) The USSR's implosion, due to a flawed economic model and trying desperately to compete with the U.S.

I don't know if either of these things qualifies as a laudable European political or military achievement.


WorldCitizen: Of course, the thing that probably kept the Soviets from then making a devastated Western Europe into its sphere of influence after WWII was the US, and later, NATO presence.


There it is. Eastern Europe was the USSR's playground, and the whole thing would have been that way, but for the U.S.'s intervention. As you pointed out - with the momentum the Red Army had, they wouldn't have stopped until they hit the Atlantic, and they were in a rapey mood.
 
2012-10-12 11:50:21 AM  

BigNumber12: B) The USSR's implosion, due to a flawed economic model and trying desperately to compete with the U.S.

I don't know if either of these things qualifies as a laudable European political or military achievement.


I would say the EU's influence in getting those former Soviet satellite states quickly up to the democratic and Western economic structure and integrating them so quickly into the West has been a huge European political achievement. That, combined with NATO expansion, has given Eastern Europe a framework upon which to build stability, peace, and prosperity that otherwise might not have existed. It was guaranteed in 1989 that former Soviet Eastern Europe (minus that Romanian issue) would go bloodlessly into peace and prosperity. Of course, there are varying levels of success between say, Estonia and Bulgaria, but the whole thing could have gone much, much worse. I would say that is a huge EU success story.
 
2012-10-12 11:51:19 AM  
Ugh.

It was NOT guaranteed in 1989 that former Soviet Eastern Europe...
 
2012-10-12 11:52:18 AM  
Ah, yes, it's clearly the EU, which didn't even exist until 1992, that was responsible for France and Germany not getting into another war, and not, for example, the military occupation of Germany from 1945 to . . . oh, wait, the US Army is still in Germany, isn't it?

Yeah, see, the whole reason Europe hasn't had a major war for the last 67 years is that Europe has been under adult supervision the whole time.
 
2012-10-12 11:54:07 AM  

Verzio: Ah, yes, it's clearly the EU, which didn't even exist until 1992, that was responsible for France and Germany not getting into another war, and not, for example, the military occupation of Germany from 1945 to . . . oh, wait, the US Army is still in Germany, isn't it?

Yeah, see, the whole reason Europe hasn't had a major war for the last 67 years is that Europe has been under adult supervision the whole time.


The EU is the current product of an evolution of actions and frameworks that started following WWII. It's a pretty simple concept, really.
 
2012-10-12 11:54:54 AM  

WorldCitizen: Verzio: Ah, yes, it's clearly the EU, which didn't even exist until 1992, that was responsible for France and Germany not getting into another war, and not, for example, the military occupation of Germany from 1945 to . . . oh, wait, the US Army is still in Germany, isn't it?

Yeah, see, the whole reason Europe hasn't had a major war for the last 67 years is that Europe has been under adult supervision the whole time.

The EU is the current product of an evolution of actions and frameworks that started following WWII. It's a pretty simple concept, really.


Which have been ENCOURAGED by the US, by the way.
 
2012-10-12 12:01:37 PM  
stevebaker.infoView Full Size

/Ready to accept the prize in 26minutes.
 
2012-10-12 12:05:12 PM  

DammitIForgotMyLogin: Before the trolls get here, it's worth reminding people that the EU was originally founded with the intent of preventing the European nations (particularly France and Germany) from starting their fourth major war in under a century. However much it might have screwed up anything else it's done since, it has been spectacularly successful at that goal.

If you don't think that qualifies as "shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses.", then let me be the first to call you an idiot.


Uh, let us be the first to call you an idiot. The acrimony between member states is at a higher level than any time in the last 20 years. And they get a peace prize for not shooting at each other....yet? How idiotic is that? The Northern Europeans have effectively exported their former unemployment problems to Southern Europe. The Southern Europeans have only now figured out how thoroughly screwed they are and now Mama Merkel just gives them lectures on their foolishness. The German banks funded the entire Spanish real estate bubble which threatens to make Subprime look like child's play.

If the Northern Europeans simply walk away from the mess and ditch the currency, you're going to see bedlam.
 
2012-10-12 12:11:44 PM  
I'm waiting for this Onion story: Nobel Peace Prize Committee awards Nobel Peace Prize to itself
 
2012-10-12 12:29:12 PM  
List of Conflicts in Europe since the signing of the Treaty of Rome

1959-2011 Basque Conflict
1968 Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia
1968-1998 The Troubles
1970-1984 Unrest in Italy
1972-1973 Second Cod War
1974 Turkish invasion of Cyprus
1975-1976 Third Cod War
1988-1994 Nagorno-Karabakh War
1989 Romanian Revolution
1991 Ten-Day War
1991-1992 South Ossetian War of Independence
1991-1993 Georgian Civil War
1991-1995 Croatian War of Independence

Signing of the Maastricht Treaty

1992 War of Transnistria
1992 Ossetian-Ingush conflict
1992-1993 First War in Abkhazia
1992-1995 Bosnian War
1993 Cherbourg incident
1993 Russian constitutional crisis
1994-1996 First Chechen War
1997 Unrest in Albania
1998-1999 Kosovo War
1998-present Dissident Irish Republican campaign
1998 Second War in Abkhazia
1999 Dagestan War
1999-2009 Second Chechen War
1999-2001 Insurgency in the Preševo Valley
2001 Insurgency in the Republic of Macedonia
2002 Perejil Island crisis
2004 Unrest in Kosovo
2004 Adjara crisis
2007-present Civil war in Ingushetia
2008 Unrest in Kosovo
2008 War in South Ossetia
2009-present Insurgency in the North Caucasus
2011-present Kosovo-Serbia border clashes 


List of conflicts in North America since the signing of the Treaty of Rome

1953-1959 Cuban Revolutionary War

Signing of NAFTA

1994-1995 Zapatista Uprising
2001 - present War on Terrorism
2006 - present Mexican Drug War

So where's NAFTA's Peace Prize?
 
2012-10-12 12:45:33 PM  

rugman11: List of Conflicts in Europe since the signing of the Treaty of Rome That actually involved member states of the current EU

1959-2011 Basque Conflict
1968-1998 The Troubles
1970-1984 Unrest in Italy
Whoops, deleted something about Croatia

Signing of the Maastricht Treaty:



That is much more accurate.
 
2012-10-12 01:02:29 PM  
Since the EU has no controls on spending but they're all tied to the same currency and essentially debt I wont be shocked if they start fighting over who has to pay the bill in a few years.
 
2012-10-12 01:07:48 PM  

Teknowaffle: rugman11: List of Conflicts in Europe since the signing of the Treaty of Rome That actually involved member states of the current EU

1959-2011 Basque Conflict
1968-1998 The Troubles
1970-1984 Unrest in Italy
Whoops, deleted something about Croatia

Signing of the Maastricht Treaty:

That is much more accurate.


Forget it, he's rolling
 
2012-10-12 01:41:26 PM  

DammitIForgotMyLogin: Before the trolls get here, it's worth reminding people that the EU was originally founded with the intent of preventing the European nations (particularly France and Germany) from starting their fourth major war in under a century. However much it might have screwed up anything else it's done since, it has been spectacularly successful at that goal.


The EU has done more to preserve peace in Europe than anybody since Hitler or, arguably, Napoleon.
 
2012-10-12 01:57:46 PM  

LL316: So not being in a war is deserving of a Peace award. Setting the bar kind of low, aren't you?


Considering past history? My grandparents, great-grandparents, great-great-great-grandparents considered war (and by that I mean war where they lived) pretty much a fact of life. Like bad harvests and epidemics, every once in a while war would sweep across the land and snuff out lives all willy-nilly.

My parent's generation haven't had a war where they lived. I haven't had a war where I live. Looks like my nephews and nieces won't have a war where they live. It's a huge deal.
 
2012-10-12 02:01:25 PM  

rugman11: List of Conflicts in Europe since the signing of the Treaty of Rome


Yeah, damn the EU for not being able to contain conflict in Abkazia. (Cod Wars? Seriously?)
 
2012-10-12 02:01:35 PM  
*ctrl-f "kissinger"*

*0 results*

Buncha damn slackers.
 
2012-10-12 02:35:12 PM  

Erik_Emune: rugman11: List of Conflicts in Europe since the signing of the Treaty of Rome

Yeah, damn the EU for not being able to contain conflict in Abkazia. (Cod Wars? Seriously?)


Was mostly just trolling after I found the Wikipedia page for "List of conflicts in Europe." I understand the thinking behind the award, though I do think the bar should be a little higher than "congratulations on not killing each other for 60 years."
 
2012-10-12 03:57:25 PM  

rugman11: Erik_Emune: rugman11: List of Conflicts in Europe since the signing of the Treaty of Rome

Yeah, damn the EU for not being able to contain conflict in Abkazia. (Cod Wars? Seriously?)

Was mostly just trolling after I found the Wikipedia page for "List of conflicts in Europe." I understand the thinking behind the award, though I do think the bar should be a little higher than "congratulations on not killing each other for 60 years."


Also, I am sure you knew that Dumbledore couldn't have done anything about the war of Abkazia. Dementors are hard to stop.
 
2012-10-12 04:40:04 PM  

DammitIForgotMyLogin: Thunderpipes: Ya, because France and Germany were certainly headed for war...

Yeah, I mean it's not like there's a long history of Franco-German conflict or anything.


There's a history of conflict between the U.S. and Great Britain too. We better incorporate, develop a common currency and otherwise entangle our nations, before the Queen tries to take back the colonies.
 
2012-10-12 05:01:47 PM  
Congratulations EU... for being too destitute to play toy soldiers.

No more outrageous than Obama or Arafat. I hear Putin is being considered for his humanitarian efforts in Syria. Fingers crossed, Vlad!
 
2012-10-12 08:00:51 PM  
The EU saved Europe from European oppression by freeing the Europeans from the Europeans. Praise Allah.
 
2012-10-13 01:57:13 AM  

WorldCitizen: The EU is the current product of an evolution of actions and frameworks that started following WWII. It's a pretty simple concept, really.

Which have been ENCOURAGED by the US, by the way.


Yes, and adults often encourage kids to participate in student government. But the participants usually have enough self-awareness to realize that the student government doesn't actually keep peace in the schools.
 
2012-10-13 04:25:33 AM  
There's something called the "Democratic Peace Theory" which states, that war between democracies are very, very, very seldom. So what exactly is the EU contribution to peace in Europa if you take into account that the EU consists solely of democratic states?

To the misinformed guy that stated that the EU was founded to keep France and Germany away from each other: The EU was founded in 1992. So you want to check what happened before an dyou might realize that the stuff done before was much more important to Peace than what the EU has done since (i.e. botching up a lot of very important things and trying to get more and more power without any adequate democratic framework).
 
2012-10-13 08:41:54 AM  

Monophtalmos: To the misinformed guy that stated that the EU was founded to keep France and Germany away from each other: The EU was founded in 1992.


Seriously? Do you not actually realize that the EU is the direct successor to the EEC and all the way back to the European Coal and Steel Community? And you're calling somebody else "misinformed"?

Or is this the part where you argue that none of that matters because, strictly speaking, that wasn't the EU, while the rest of us point and laugh at your argument?

By the way, if you want to be pedantic, and I can see that you do, the European Union was not founded in 1992; it was formally established when the Maastricht Treaty came into force on 1 November 1993.
 
2012-10-13 08:52:46 AM  

Monophtalmos: There's something called the "Democratic Peace Theory" which states, that war between democracies are very, very, very seldom.


Hitler came to power in democratic Germany through (technically) legal and constitutional means. When Germany invaded Czechoslovakia, the latter was the only remaining democracy among the Eastern European states created after World War One. One or two other democracies may also have been involved later in the war.

This is the part where you argue that Germany doesn't count as a democracy because "no true Scotsman" and anyway that would ruin your theory.
 
2012-10-13 11:09:40 AM  

czetie:
Seriously? Do you not actually realize that the EU is the direct successor to the EEC and all the way back to the European Coal and Steel Community? And you're calling somebody else "misinformed"? Or is this the part where you argue that none of that matters because, strictly speaking, that wasn't the EU, while the rest of us point and laugh at your argument?


By "the rest of us" you probably mean yourself and your gang from the shortbus. The passage from the very Boobies was as follows "it's worth reminding people that the EU was originally founded with the intent of preventing the European nations (particularly France and Germany) from starting their fourth major war in under a century."

So pray tell me how "the EU was founded to prevent" a fourth major war if it - as you pointed out - was but a successor to EEC and the Steel and Coal community. In case your level of reading comprehension prevents you from getting the difference you can skip the answer because I won't argue with a dyslexic.


By the way, if you want to be pedantic, and I can see that you do, the European Union was not founded in 1992; it was formally established when the Maastricht Treaty came into force on 1 November 1993.


It was signed in February 1992, so you can be pedantic about it, but even the German Wikipedia shows both dates as founding dates. Not that facts seem to bother you as you make plainly clear with the following paragraph:


Hitler came to power in democratic Germany through (technically) legal and constitutional means. When Germany invaded Czechoslovakia, the latter was the only remaining democracy among the Eastern European states created after World War One. One or two other democracies may also have been involved later in the war. This is the part where you argue that Germany doesn't count as a democracy because "no true Scotsman" and anyway that would ruin your theory.


You should wait until you covered that topic at school before trying to debate it, because your lack of knowledge is painfully obvious and creates what we call in German "Fremdscham" or vicarious embarassment. Let's begin with the observation that even if your statement "Hitler came to power through technically legal and constitutional means" wasn't a brainless repetition of official Nazi propaganda it still would be a statement about 1933. The annexation of the "Rest-Tschechei" took in place in 1939 and even though it wasn't a war, so it is doubly harebrained. If you want to be moronic, and I see that you do, you should now try to prove that Germany was still a democracy in 1939. Good luck with that.

And in case you are really earnest about your drivel with the 1933 "Machtergreifung" being legal I would simply like to point out that the murder and imprisonment of members of the Reichstag *before* the vote on the Ermächtigungsgesetz was against the constitution as was the threatening of remaining members of parliament. I am not sure which definition of democracy you are adhering to but I am pretty sure that imprisonment and harassment of members of parliament is not being accepted as being compatible or even "technically compatible" with democracy.
 
2012-10-13 12:14:27 PM  
Monophtalmos:

By "the rest of us" you probably mean yourself and your gang from the shortbus ... I won't argue with a dyslexic.

You should wait until you covered that topic at school before trying to debate it, because your lack of knowledge is painfully obvious... If you want to be moronic...


In other words: you got nothing. Well, you got pwned. And filter-pwned. But apart from that you got nothing.

Look, I'll explain it to you once again in simple words. Every thinking person in this thread understands that the reference to "the EU" up above implies "the EU, the EEC, and other predecessor European institutions". The only person who would think that correcting that shorthand is a worthwhile point of debate is either profoundly ignorant of modern European history, or still suffering from the pedantic mindset typical of thirteen year olds. In other words, you.

Now, having demonstrated that you have a grasp of European politics derived entirely from a brief visit to Wikipedia, I suggest you shut up and sit down while the adults talk.

*favorited!*
 
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