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(Some Buffy fansite)   How to get more female superheroes, like Buffy, into TV, movies, and comics: Fewer "boobs with guns"   (btvsonline.com) divider line 24
    More: Unlikely, boobies, comics  
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2675 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 12 Oct 2012 at 11:49 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-10-12 09:15:19 PM
2 votes:

rickycal78: ZeroCorpse: Buffy is not a superhero. She is a supernatural Mary Sue, but not a superhero.

Articles like TFA are the reason why I take such glee in f♥cking with Buffy fans. The far-out "Buffy is teh best show evar!" types are seriously demented, and get more bent out of shape than trekkies do when you criticize their show.

Then you have shows like Buffy, Charmed, or Alias who have strong female leads who aren't all boobs but if you look at the show's plots it's not a show aimed at males, it's a drama disguising itself as an action show. The action is often there as a medium to deliver the relationships between characters not as an end to itself. The only difference between those shows and Single Female Lawyer is that they're fighting monsters instead of criminals.

`Nailed it.

Buffy is a teen drama that happens to have monsters in it. It's SO much more about the relationships, angst, gossip, sex, and hook-ups than about the supernatural threat. Not that this is bad, but it means it's not a superhero show; It's a drama.

/For the record, the best zombie stories are also horror-drama, (and not action-drama), and are about relationships between characters, NOT the monsters. Any zombie story that focuses on zombies and killing them is missing the point.

Not sure what kind of Buffy fans you've been farking with, but most of them know this, and acknowledge that it's actually the interpersonal relationships that made the show as good as it was.


I'll admit that I'm a nerd who doesn't like Buffy, even with friends who love it.

I gave it a good shot, but I couldn't get past the second season, with all the teenage angst. I know high school sucked, and I don't need to be reminded of it. I was expecting vampire slaying, not whiny beautiful people.
2012-10-12 04:46:21 PM
2 votes:
Not all women are turned off by a female superhero that is scantily clad with big boobs. There just has to be more to her than t&a in order to keep their interest. Besides, nowadays they'll just cosplay as her regardless if she's a dumb bimbo or not. I think this notion that women are anti-comic book/superhero/hot chick is a little out dated at this point. I say bring on the big boobs and revealing outfits and let the girls decide for themselves.
2012-10-12 10:13:05 AM
2 votes:
Yeah, right.

Let's be honest, fanboys... the only reason comics starring female characters even survive is because they're in skimpy costumes and have huge tits. Take those away, the books don't even get published in the first place.
2012-10-13 08:52:37 AM
1 votes:

Shadow Blasko: So, it's time for the Joss Whedon Waif-Fu thread of the week.


That's why I never watched his shows.

/I don't dig skinny chicks
2012-10-12 07:03:22 PM
1 votes:

ExperianScaresCthulhu: And no dude wants to read about a de-glammed chick
Who Doesn't Matter, either. Dudes read comics
to get away from the mundane; they can get all the
de-glammed background chicks they want in real life.
Give Her a storyline that matters, and the readers
will be all on it. Just my opinion.


What you say is true, but it's not the only problem, and so by itself it won't solve things.

If you are male and dealing with women, there is only one universal rule: don't be creepy. Anything else will very from person to person, but a creepy person will push women away in droves, knowingly or otherwise. And comic book fans are creepy: everyone knows that. It's a stereotype, of course -it's not true for all fans- but stereotypes don't arise in a vacuum. They're true often enough to be useful, even if they're imperfect.

End result: even if the characters and stories are improved, women won't read them if they have to deal with a legion of basement-dwellers to buy them or participate in the fan community. The existing female fanbase will, because they manage to look past the creepy guys, but they're already reading comics, so this doesn't represent an increase in sales. This will cause it to be seen as a failure by the comic execs, and nothing will change.

And that's why, even though what you say is all true, it's not enough by itself: it can only work as part of a multi-pronged solution. We do indeed need to clear out the trash, but we've also got to do something about the rats in the walls.
2012-10-12 05:41:12 PM
1 votes:
Female comic book characters are bland. They might be more interesting if they were willing to give the characters more characteristically female vices. A vain, catty, manipulative female character is more interesting than a goody two shoes. Hell, even the world's dumbest bimbo would be worth some kind of comic relief. Comics are willing to go all out misogynistic when it comes to hot bodies and skimpy costumes, but aren't willing to go there when it comes to personality.

It's ok though, manga has been filling that demographic for a while now.
2012-10-12 05:40:46 PM
1 votes:

FirstNationalBastard: Yeah, right.

Let's be honest, fanboys... the only reason comics starring female characters even survive is because they're in skimpy costumes and have huge tits. Take those away, the books don't even get published in the first place.


Dave Willis, Jeph Jacques, Andrew Hussie, and the web-comic industry generally prove you wrong on that point. They may not be raking in millions upon millions, but there are plenty of folks out there making a comfortable living off fans perfectly happy to buy comics and related kitsch featuring female characters that are more than window-dressing. More over it isn't like there haven't been any successful non-objectifying book runs done by DC and Marvel over the years. At this point saying cheesecake is the only way a comic book can succeed is just a cop-out; a way to avoid the argument through an appeal to cynicism.
2012-10-12 05:31:27 PM
1 votes:
I never liked Buffy as a character, she always felt very flat and boring. I preferred the other members of the cast.
2012-10-12 05:04:43 PM
1 votes:

ZeroCorpse: Buffy is not a superhero. She is a supernatural Mary Sue, but not a superhero.

Articles like TFA are the reason why I take such glee in f♥cking with Buffy fans. The far-out "Buffy is teh best show evar!" types are seriously demented, and get more bent out of shape than trekkies do when you criticize their show.

Then you have shows like Buffy, Charmed, or Alias who have strong female leads who aren't all boobs but if you look at the show's plots it's not a show aimed at males, it's a drama disguising itself as an action show. The action is often there as a medium to deliver the relationships between characters not as an end to itself. The only difference between those shows and Single Female Lawyer is that they're fighting monsters instead of criminals.

`Nailed it.

Buffy is a teen drama that happens to have monsters in it. It's SO much more about the relationships, angst, gossip, sex, and hook-ups than about the supernatural threat. Not that this is bad, but it means it's not a superhero show; It's a drama.


/For the record, the best zombie stories are also horror-drama, (and not action-drama), and are about relationships between characters, NOT the monsters. Any zombie story that focuses on zombies and killing them is missing the point.


Not sure what kind of Buffy fans you've been farking with, but most of them know this, and acknowledge that it's actually the interpersonal relationships that made the show as good as it was.
2012-10-12 04:36:11 PM
1 votes:

rocky_howard: The point is: Wearing skimpy clothes and being sexualized is not a hamper on success with the female crowd. That's just what armchair feminists love to tell themselves.

It's not the female characters: it's the men who fantasize about them. You're quite correct that these characters are not a hamper on success with female comic book fans who manage to look past how creepy the stereotypical comic book fan is, but that's not really the largest of demographics. The depiction of women in comics serves as a pretty constant reminder of how creepy the stereotypical comic book fan is, and that pushes a lot of women away from comics entirely.

Or, to put it another way, the comic book companies are catering almost exclusively to a demographic that shouldn't be catered to at all.
2012-10-12 04:29:33 PM
1 votes:
"Fewer boobs with guns" won't happen until the companies believe that this is what will get more sales than the status quo...

...which won't happen until the largest demographic by far in the comics market is no longer the sort of fan who will buy these comics...

...which won't happen until more of the sort of fan who wouldn't buy these comics becomes the largest demographic in the comics market, however that occurs...

...which won't happen until the stereotype of the comics fan ceases to be about the sort of person why would buy these comics...

...which won't happen until the comic book companies have the numbers to prove that the stereotype isn't true...

...which won't happen until the comics companies make a serious attempt to appeal to anyone else...

...which won't happen until the companies believe that this is what will get more sales than the status quo.

And that, my friends, is the sad state of the modern American comics industry. I'm frankly getting tired of having to defend my interest in comics from non-fans who see this.
2012-10-12 04:24:40 PM
1 votes:

albuquerquehalsey: [media.comicvine.com image 550x873]


Tee hee. Starfire was always sexualized. And to use a little black girl as the one fantasizing about Starfire -- Starfire, of the iconic hair -- is actually kind of subversive to the point.

www.hyperborea.org
Curly, but not kinky... and it goes on and on and on and on forever

Teen Titan cartoon network Starfire looks like Anime. They straightened her outrageous curls. They straightened her curls. Again, subversive choice, to put a black girl in there, and to only have her throw the shiat in the trash over Starfire being a Western sexual fetish instead of an Eastern sexual fetish neutered for a Western audience.

I see the point, in spite of all that. I'm just cracking up over what else is being said.
2012-10-12 04:16:34 PM
1 votes:

texdent: Wonder Woman's costume changes
[s3.hubimg.com image 260x288]
[s1.hubimg.com image 850x637]
[s1.hubimg.com image 520x800]
[s2.hubimg.com image 520x802]


Or, you could have just posted this for everything between the Golden Age skirt up to the horrible JMS reboot that preceded the horribler Jim Lee nu52...

1.bp.blogspot.com 

L to R:

70s Diana Rigg Wonder Woman
Silver Age Bob Khaniger and Mike Sekowski-era Wonder Woman
Lynda Carter Wonder Woman
Standard Wonder Woman
70's Earth 2 Wonder Woman
George Perez Post-Crisis Wonder Woman
William Messner-Loebs "Artemis becomes Wonder Woman" Princess Diana.

All that's missing is John Byrne's redesign from issue #101, and all that did was change Wonder Woman's panties from star spangled to having only two stars on 'em.
2012-10-12 04:08:57 PM
1 votes:
Wonder Woman's costume changes
s3.hubimg.com
s1.hubimg.com
s1.hubimg.com
s2.hubimg.com
2012-10-12 04:02:23 PM
1 votes:

Zombie DJ: You're picking a dumb fight, but here:

rocky_howard: 1.- You think he's black? And that it's a racist book? You clearly haven't read it and are just foaming at the mouth for some context-less picture.

Insert picture of Kevin Spacy from Superman "WROOOOOOOOOOOONG!!". I work in a comic book store. Been reading them for over 30 years. The first farking issue they have him carjack a van and then have a bomb in it. You know, the Muslim guy. It's stupid and it's like George Lucas created a character. We've had EVERY single black customer of ours say how it's racist. (Granted there's not many. A black geek is like seeing a Unicorn)

2.- LOL, and?
Nothing. Just venting.

3.- So you think women from 50 years ago were less covered than women today? Rihanna shows more skin and is more sexualized than Wonder Woman. Females everywhere still love her to death.

Are you saying Rhinna is just like Wonder Woman? I must have missed those scenes in Battleship. Perhaps you could lend me your Directors Cut/ Blu-Ray. Diana is supposed to be a Queen and a warrior. Give her some dignity and class, not hotpants.


Well, actually, Wonder Woman started out in a skirt. That led to... for lack of a better term, bicycle shorts. Some time in the 70s, the whole outfit became a one piece swimsuit.
2012-10-12 03:54:50 PM
1 votes:

texdent: That first pic is Supergirl, not Power Girl


You realize Power Girl is an Earth-2 derivation of Supergirl, so that's why he referred to Supergirl as "Original Formula".
2012-10-12 03:20:20 PM
1 votes:
media.comicvine.com
2012-10-12 02:58:25 PM
1 votes:
This goes back to the thread on female characters in video games. If there was a market for it then people would buy it. When they do create superhero characters who aren't all boobs and guns, they don't sell.

Then you have shows like Buffy, Charmed, or Alias who have strong female leads who aren't all boobs but if you look at the show's plots it's not a show aimed at males, it's a drama disguising itself as an action show. The action is often there as a medium to deliver the relationships between characters not as an end to itself. The only difference between those shows and Single Female Lawyer is that they're fighting monsters instead of criminals.

The article wants more female superheros on TV but there's little reason for studios to take on such an expensive risky project when if they want superheros there are plenty of well established male ones that they can turn into dramas and they know women will watch anyway. The author doesn't want more female superheros, she want's more dramas staring female superheros.
2012-10-12 02:36:19 PM
1 votes:

rocky_howard: FTFA: The size of the comic-book market in North America has grown from roughly $310 million in 1997 to $675 million in 2011, an increase of 118% that far surpasses the estimated 14% increase in population over the same period of time - meaning a greater and greater percentage of Americans are reading comic books each year

Hahaha, what a bullshiat article.

Price of comics in 1997: 1.99
Price of comics in 2011: 3.99

Gee, so if you double the price, you double the money you make?


And in that time, the number of readers has been somewhere between stagnant and decreasing.
2012-10-12 02:17:33 PM
1 votes:
FTFA: The size of the comic-book market in North America has grown from roughly $310 million in 1997 to $675 million in 2011, an increase of 118% that far surpasses the estimated 14% increase in population over the same period of time - meaning a greater and greater percentage of Americans are reading comic books each year

Hahaha, what a bullshiat article.

Price of comics in 1997: 1.99
Price of comics in 2011: 3.99

Gee, so if you double the price, you double the money you make?
2012-10-12 02:02:13 PM
1 votes:
www.top40db.net

Approve.

/hot link!
//obscure?
2012-10-12 01:15:48 PM
1 votes:
Terry Moore's 'Echo' has a scorching hot lead character who isn't a walking sterotype. It's fairly excellent.

Link
2012-10-12 12:21:40 PM
1 votes:

bostonguy: FirstNationalBastard: The female demographic of comic book readers is so small, by catering to them you're alienating the majority of the readers.

TFA argues that people who want to see more female superheroes should ignore comics and focus on TV. It's kind of a lengthy marketing analysis that goes through different options...


The problem with that is that TV doesn't know how to do female superheroes correctly.

Sure, they did Xena. But that's about it. Look at the Wonder Woman pilot that was buried. They wanted it to be Ally McBeal with super powers. In fact, executives think pretty much every show with a female lead needs to be Ally McBeal with *insert needed attribute*. They can't just let there be a strong, asskicking woman action hero.
2012-10-12 11:55:38 AM
1 votes:
www.btvsonline.com 

I'm sorry......What were we discussing again?
 
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