Zombie DJ: Are you saying Rhinna is just like Wonder Woman? I must have missed those scenes in Battleship. Perhaps you could lend me your Directors Cut/ Blu-Ray. Diana is supposed to be a Queen and a warrior. Give her some dignity and class, not hotpants.

The point is: Wearing skimpy clothes and being sexualized is not a hamper on success with the female crowd. That's just what armchair feminists love to tell themselves.

FirstNationalBastard: Well, actually, Wonder Woman started out in a skirt. That led to... for lack of a better term, bicycle shorts. Some time in the 70s, the whole outfit became a one piece swimsuit.

True, but what pissed me off was, DC led people to believe they were going to give her a different costume, knowing full farking well they were months away from doing the whole DC52.
I grew up with Diana visiting the UN and being a Ambassador from Paradise Island.
Always thought, "Who's taking her seriously.?"
I wouldn't mind the skirt even. A little Trojan Soldier thing maybe, but hot pants?
They fixed Superman (by giving him knee pads) and Batman. Even Aquaman and Flash but farked WW.
Just stupid. You want to be taken "serious" for your books, DC? Really?

/never read a Marvel comic until 15 years ago
//always a DC fan
///I have a hold list of 50 comics. Marvel now has 20 spots and DC has 2 (Aquaman and JL Dark)
////They even gave Zatanna pants!

rocky_howard: Zombie DJ: Are you saying Rhinna is just like Wonder Woman? I must have missed those scenes in Battleship. Perhaps you could lend me your Directors Cut/ Blu-Ray. Diana is supposed to be a Queen and a warrior. Give her some dignity and class, not hotpants.

The point is: Wearing skimpy clothes and being sexualized is not a hamper on success with the female crowd. That's just what armchair feminists love to tell themselves.

Really? Name a single successful woman people take seriously that is famous for wearing hotpants.
/entertainers don't count
//because we all care what Madonna votes for

texdent: rocky_howard: texdent: That first pic is Supergirl, not Power Girl

You realize Power Girl is an Earth-2 derivation of Supergirl, so that's why he referred to Supergirl as "Original Formula".

Missed that part.

NP, and thanks dude (rocky_howard).


I look at it like this: the men are highly sexualized as well, That classic Rob Liefeld drawing of Captain America



and the Joel Schumacher versions of Batman and Robin



are the male version of what happens to female characters. Just because the dick ain't hanging out doesn't mean that men aren't being presented with ridiculous body images as well. Schumacher's costuming is the most faithful rendition of what happens to comic book characters I've ever seen. There are no punches pulled in the sexualizing and fantasy-body creation. Because Schumacher is gay, Batgirl's costuming probably deserves a second look for the 'don't touch' additions of her gauntlets and the comparative demureness of her costuming, where the only 'LOOK AT ME!!!' highlights are above her tits, not her pussy (where her belt acts as a stop sign instead of an arrow pointing to the goodies).

Batman and Robin's costuming is all about 'LOOK AT ME!!!!' sexing up and drawing the eye, though. Very 90s.

People don't buy comics to look at people who look just like them. They don't buy it for Steve Rogers. They buy it for Captain America. Liefeld's drawing is a mess, but it's also a truth, like fake tits. That's not to say that that makes it okay to highly sexualize women. It just won't sell, if the women are not.

Zombie DJ: Really? Name a single successful woman people take seriously that is famous for wearing hotpants.
/entertainers don't count
//because we all care what Madonna votes for

So now the hurdle is "being taken seriously"? I thought we were talking about commercial success.

And yes, entertainers count. They count much more than any "taken seriously people" you may mention.

albuquerquehalsey: [media.comicvine.com image 550x873]

Tee hee. Starfire was always sexualized. And to use a little black girl as the one fantasizing about Starfire -- Starfire, of the iconic hair -- is actually kind of subversive to the point.


Curly, but not kinky... and it goes on and on and on and on forever

Teen Titan cartoon network Starfire looks like Anime. They straightened her outrageous curls. They straightened her curls. Again, subversive choice, to put a black girl in there, and to only have her throw the shiat in the trash over Starfire being a Western sexual fetish instead of an Eastern sexual fetish neutered for a Western audience.

I see the point, in spite of all that. I'm just cracking up over what else is being said.

red5ish: Your blog sucks. Unreadable. Don't quit your day job.

Apos: I'm sorry......What were we discussing again?

This is relevant to my interests.
[imageshack.us image 398x550]

Toethumbder Woman, amirite?

"Fewer boobs with guns" won't happen until the companies believe that this is what will get more sales than the status quo...

...which won't happen until the largest demographic by far in the comics market is no longer the sort of fan who will buy these comics...

...which won't happen until more of the sort of fan who wouldn't buy these comics becomes the largest demographic in the comics market, however that occurs...

...which won't happen until the stereotype of the comics fan ceases to be about the sort of person why would buy these comics...

...which won't happen until the comic book companies have the numbers to prove that the stereotype isn't true...

...which won't happen until the comics companies make a serious attempt to appeal to anyone else...

...which won't happen until the companies believe that this is what will get more sales than the status quo.

And that, my friends, is the sad state of the modern American comics industry. I'm frankly getting tired of having to defend my interest in comics from non-fans who see this.

rocky_howard: Zombie DJ: Really? Name a single successful woman people take seriously that is famous for wearing hotpants.
/entertainers don't count
//because we all care what Madonna votes for

So now the hurdle is "being taken seriously"? I thought we were talking about commercial success.

And yes, entertainers count. They count much more than any "taken seriously people" you may mention.

Well there you go. I was NOT talking about commercial success. I was talking about "If Wonder Woman is to be a better role model and taken seriously, give her some pants."
And who did I mention? I don't remember mentioning anyone.
And no. The only people who farking care what entertainers do are people who have a subscription to People Magazine. Not sure how you got commercial success out of that, but oh, well Blame the internet matrix.

Zombie DJ: You're picking a dumb fight, but here:

rocky_howard: 1.- You think he's black? And that it's a racist book? You clearly haven't read it and are just foaming at the mouth for some context-less picture.

Insert picture of Kevin Spacy from Superman "WROOOOOOOOOOOONG!!". I work in a comic book store. Been reading them for over 30 years. The first farking issue they have him carjack a van and then have a bomb in it. You know, the Muslim guy. It's stupid and it's like George Lucas created a character. We've had EVERY single black customer of ours say how it's racist. (Granted there's not many. A black geek is like seeing a Unicorn)

2.- LOL, and?
Nothing. Just venting.

3.- So you think women from 50 years ago were less covered than women today? Rihanna shows more skin and is more sexualized than Wonder Woman. Females everywhere still love her to death.

Are you saying Rhinna is just like Wonder Woman? I must have missed those scenes in Battleship. Perhaps you could lend me your Directors Cut/ Blu-Ray. Diana is supposed to be a Queen and a warrior. Give her some dignity and class, not hotpants.

Speaking of, off-topic: I saw a deviant art photoshop of Marion Alston-Kurlelo... they used a white chick. Just slapped some white chick in a uniform in front of a picture of a ship. So everybody commenting on the .gif was like, 'dude, Marion is black'. So the 'artist' just switched out the white chick with............... Rihanna, in her Battleship uniform.

And the commenters were satisfied.

Rihanna. As Marion Alston-Kurlelo. I wanted to bang my head against my desk. I didn't, because the artist made the attempt to correct, instead of digging in deep like some segments of the Last Airbender fandom will do when it comes to whitening Katara, Sokka and Korra's very dark skin. It was just.... they couldn't find a photo of S. Epatha or (even better) Alfre Woodard? Aiight, then.

/off topic, off

rocky_howard: The point is: Wearing skimpy clothes and being sexualized is not a hamper on success with the female crowd. That's just what armchair feminists love to tell themselves.
It's not the female characters: it's the men who fantasize about them. You're quite correct that these characters are not a hamper on success with female comic book fans who manage to look past how creepy the stereotypical comic book fan is, but that's not really the largest of demographics. The depiction of women in comics serves as a pretty constant reminder of how creepy the stereotypical comic book fan is, and that pushes a lot of women away from comics entirely.

Or, to put it another way, the comic book companies are catering almost exclusively to a demographic that shouldn't be catered to at all.

FirstNationalBastard: Zombie DJ: You're picking a dumb fight, but here:

rocky_howard: 1.- You think he's black? And that it's a racist book? You clearly haven't read it and are just foaming at the mouth for some context-less picture.

Insert picture of Kevin Spacy from Superman "WROOOOOOOOOOOONG!!". I work in a comic book store. Been reading them for over 30 years. The first farking issue they have him carjack a van and then have a bomb in it. You know, the Muslim guy. It's stupid and it's like George Lucas created a character. We've had EVERY single black customer of ours say how it's racist. (Granted there's not many. A black geek is like seeing a Unicorn)

2.- LOL, and?
Nothing. Just venting.

3.- So you think women from 50 years ago were less covered than women today? Rihanna shows more skin and is more sexualized than Wonder Woman. Females everywhere still love her to death.

Are you saying Rhinna is just like Wonder Woman? I must have missed those scenes in Battleship. Perhaps you could lend me your Directors Cut/ Blu-Ray. Diana is supposed to be a Queen and a warrior. Give her some dignity and class, not hotpants.

Well, actually, Wonder Woman started out in a skirt. That led to... for lack of a better term, bicycle shorts. Some time in the 70s, the whole outfit became a one piece swimsuit.



if you're a chick,
and you're of a certain age,
you remember what it was like on the playground
when all your friends were imitating this ;)

dang, said the .gif was too big. Here it is: Linda Carter as WW2 Diana Prince spinning into the iconic short shorts and bustier

Not all women are turned off by a female superhero that is scantily clad with big boobs. There just has to be more to her than t&a in order to keep their interest. Besides, nowadays they'll just cosplay as her regardless if she's a dumb bimbo or not. I think this notion that women are anti-comic book/superhero/hot chick is a little out dated at this point. I say bring on the big boobs and revealing outfits and let the girls decide for themselves.

Millennium: rocky_howard: The point is: Wearing skimpy clothes and being sexualized is not a hamper on success with the female crowd. That's just what armchair feminists love to tell themselves.
It's not the female characters: it's the men who fantasize about them. You're quite correct that these characters are not a hamper on success with female comic book fans who manage to look past how creepy the stereotypical comic book fan is, but that's not really the largest of demographics. The depiction of women in comics serves as a pretty constant reminder of how creepy the stereotypical comic book fan is, and that pushes a lot of women away from comics entirely.

Or, to put it another way, the comic book companies are catering almost exclusively to a demographic that shouldn't be catered to at all.

Women like to be thought of as sexy though.
Women don't like to be put in refrigerators,
but women loooooove to be thought of as sexy.

The problem isn't the boobs,
it's how much control they have beyond
the boobs. If it's all catfights and titty-bounces
while the dudes have the meaty storylines
and Big Decisions To Make, that won't work.

Deglamming women won't change what women
really want: to matter. A de-glammed costume on a character
who doesn't really matter or Make The Big Decisions,
Leading The Group, Offering Opinions that Matter
in the Group, that de-glammed costume isn't feminism.

And no dude wants to read about a de-glammed chick
Who Doesn't Matter, either. Dudes read comics
to get away from the mundane; they can get all the
de-glammed background chicks they want in real life.
Give Her a storyline that matters, and the readers
will be all on it. Just my opinion.

Millennium: rocky_howard: The point is: Wearing skimpy clothes and being sexualized is not a hamper on success with the female crowd. That's just what armchair feminists love to tell themselves.
It's not the female characters: it's the men who fantasize about them. You're quite correct that these characters are not a hamper on success with female comic book fans who manage to look past how creepy the stereotypical comic book fan is, but that's not really the largest of demographics. The depiction of women in comics serves as a pretty constant reminder of how creepy the stereotypical comic book fan is, and that pushes a lot of women away from comics entirely.

Or, to put it another way, the comic book companies are catering almost exclusively to a demographic that shouldn't be catered to at all.

Yeah, they should cater to the wifebeating jock demographic like Rihanna.

ZeroCorpse: Buffy is not a superhero. She is a supernatural Mary Sue, but not a superhero.

Articles like TFA are the reason why I take such glee in f♥cking with Buffy fans. The far-out "Buffy is teh best show evar!" types are seriously demented, and get more bent out of shape than trekkies do when you criticize their show.

Then you have shows like Buffy, Charmed, or Alias who have strong female leads who aren't all boobs but if you look at the show's plots it's not a show aimed at males, it's a drama disguising itself as an action show. The action is often there as a medium to deliver the relationships between characters not as an end to itself. The only difference between those shows and Single Female Lawyer is that they're fighting monsters instead of criminals.

`Nailed it.

Buffy is a teen drama that happens to have monsters in it. It's SO much more about the relationships, angst, gossip, sex, and hook-ups than about the supernatural threat. Not that this is bad, but it means it's not a superhero show; It's a drama.

/For the record, the best zombie stories are also horror-drama, (and not action-drama), and are about relationships between characters, NOT the monsters. Any zombie story that focuses on zombies and killing them is missing the point.

Not sure what kind of Buffy fans you've been farking with, but most of them know this, and acknowledge that it's actually the interpersonal relationships that made the show as good as it was.

I never liked Buffy as a character, she always felt very flat and boring. I preferred the other members of the cast.

FirstNationalBastard: Yeah, right.

Let's be honest, fanboys... the only reason comics starring female characters even survive is because they're in skimpy costumes and have huge tits. Take those away, the books don't even get published in the first place.

Dave Willis, Jeph Jacques, Andrew Hussie, and the web-comic industry generally prove you wrong on that point. They may not be raking in millions upon millions, but there are plenty of folks out there making a comfortable living off fans perfectly happy to buy comics and related kitsch featuring female characters that are more than window-dressing. More over it isn't like there haven't been any successful non-objectifying book runs done by DC and Marvel over the years. At this point saying cheesecake is the only way a comic book can succeed is just a cop-out; a way to avoid the argument through an appeal to cynicism.

Female comic book characters are bland. They might be more interesting if they were willing to give the characters more characteristically female vices. A vain, catty, manipulative female character is more interesting than a goody two shoes. Hell, even the world's dumbest bimbo would be worth some kind of comic relief. Comics are willing to go all out misogynistic when it comes to hot bodies and skimpy costumes, but aren't willing to go there when it comes to personality.

It's ok though, manga has been filling that demographic for a while now.

The problem is that there's an assumption that guys just want "boobs and guns" women. Now, I like women in TV and movies to be attractive, but I'm happy watching the likes of Lola from Run Lola Run, Buffy, Chell from Portal and Leeloo Dallas as they are.

If I want to see a sexy woman, I'll download porn.

Hebalo: Terry Moore's 'Echo' has a scorching hot lead character who isn't a walking sterotype. It's fairly excellent.

Link

This and Rachel Rising is pretty great. Any comic with a murderous 10 year old girl is ok in my book

farkeruk: The problem is that there's an assumption that guys just want "boobs and guns" women. Now, I like women in TV and movies to be attractive, but I'm happy watching the likes of Lola from Run Lola Run, Buffy, Chell from Portal and Leeloo Dallas as they are.

If I want to see a sexy woman, I'll download porn.

Hey now, if you're calling Franka Potente unattractive, I've got words for you. Strong words. Like, "good day, sir!"

ExperianScaresCthulhu: And no dude wants to read about a de-glammed chick
Who Doesn't Matter, either. Dudes read comics
to get away from the mundane; they can get all the
de-glammed background chicks they want in real life.
Give Her a storyline that matters, and the readers
will be all on it. Just my opinion.

What you say is true, but it's not the only problem, and so by itself it won't solve things.

If you are male and dealing with women, there is only one universal rule: don't be creepy. Anything else will very from person to person, but a creepy person will push women away in droves, knowingly or otherwise. And comic book fans are creepy: everyone knows that. It's a stereotype, of course -it's not true for all fans- but stereotypes don't arise in a vacuum. They're true often enough to be useful, even if they're imperfect.

End result: even if the characters and stories are improved, women won't read them if they have to deal with a legion of basement-dwellers to buy them or participate in the fan community. The existing female fanbase will, because they manage to look past the creepy guys, but they're already reading comics, so this doesn't represent an increase in sales. This will cause it to be seen as a failure by the comic execs, and nothing will change.

And that's why, even though what you say is all true, it's not enough by itself: it can only work as part of a multi-pronged solution. We do indeed need to clear out the trash, but we've also got to do something about the rats in the walls.

rickycal78: ZeroCorpse: Buffy is not a superhero. She is a supernatural Mary Sue, but not a superhero.

Articles like TFA are the reason why I take such glee in f♥cking with Buffy fans. The far-out "Buffy is teh best show evar!" types are seriously demented, and get more bent out of shape than trekkies do when you criticize their show.

Then you have shows like Buffy, Charmed, or Alias who have strong female leads who aren't all boobs but if you look at the show's plots it's not a show aimed at males, it's a drama disguising itself as an action show. The action is often there as a medium to deliver the relationships between characters not as an end to itself. The only difference between those shows and Single Female Lawyer is that they're fighting monsters instead of criminals.

`Nailed it.

Buffy is a teen drama that happens to have monsters in it. It's SO much more about the relationships, angst, gossip, sex, and hook-ups than about the supernatural threat. Not that this is bad, but it means it's not a superhero show; It's a drama.

/For the record, the best zombie stories are also horror-drama, (and not action-drama), and are about relationships between characters, NOT the monsters. Any zombie story that focuses on zombies and killing them is missing the point.

Not sure what kind of Buffy fans you've been farking with, but most of them know this, and acknowledge that it's actually the interpersonal relationships that made the show as good as it was.

I'll admit that I'm a nerd who doesn't like Buffy, even with friends who love it.

I gave it a good shot, but I couldn't get past the second season, with all the teenage angst. I know high school sucked, and I don't need to be reminded of it. I was expecting vampire slaying, not whiny beautiful people.

What about Guns with Boobs?

I'm so sure this is based on real data. Oh, but it makes a point, I see. With made-up data.

Subby has an affinity for misplaced commas, it seems.

grokca: Apos: [www.btvsonline.com image 600x839] 

I'm sorry......What were we discussing again?

I believe it was boobs and guns, somebody shop a gun into that picture.



Mole Man:
//obscure?

Dude... the Cramps. Awesome. Fist bump etc.

Shadow Blasko: So, it's time for the Joss Whedon Waif-Fu thread of the week.

That's why I never watched his shows.

/I don't dig skinny chicks

ExperianScaresCthulhu: texdent: rocky_howard: texdent: That first pic is Supergirl, not Power Girl

You realize Power Girl is an Earth-2 derivation of Supergirl, so that's why he referred to Supergirl as "Original Formula".

Missed that part.

NP, and thanks dude (rocky_howard).


I look at it like this: the men are highly sexualized as well, That classic Rob Liefeld drawing of Captain America

[media.tumblr.com image 470x360]

and the Joel Schumacher versions of Batman and Robin

[spinoff.comicbookresources.com image 714x478]

are the male version of what happens to female characters. Just because the dick ain't hanging out doesn't mean that men aren't being presented with ridiculous body images as well. Schumacher's costuming is the most faithful rendition of what happens to comic book characters I've ever seen. There are no punches pulled in the sexualizing and fantasy-body creation. Because Schumacher is gay, Batgirl's costuming probably deserves a second look for the 'don't touch' additions of her gauntlets and the comparative demureness of her costuming, where the only 'LOOK AT ME!!!' highlights are above her tits, not her pussy (where her belt acts as a stop sign instead of an arrow pointing to the goodies).

Batman and Robin's costuming is all about 'LOOK AT ME!!!!' sexing up and drawing the eye, though. Very 90s.

People don't buy comics to look at people who look just like them. They don't buy it for Steve Rogers. They buy it for Captain America. Liefeld's drawing is a mess, but it's also a truth, like fake tits. That's not to say that that makes it okay to highly sexualize women. It just won't sell, if the women are not.

The difference? They're both perceived as terrible.