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(Reuters)   Supreme Court is divided over an affirmative action case involving college admissions. Come on, why shouldn't minorities have the same opportunity to get mired hopelessly deep in college loan debt like anyone else?   (reuters.com) divider line 74
    More: Followup, Justice Kennedy, supreme courts, University and college admissions, Justice Antonin Scalia, Solicitor General of the United States, strict scrutiny, Stephen Breyer, Chief Justice John Roberts  
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3915 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Oct 2012 at 7:45 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


Archived thread
2012-10-12 08:00:22 AM
6 votes:
Affirmative action needs to be done away with everywhere. Let's start at the top... with the office of the President.
2012-10-12 08:33:35 AM
5 votes:

Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.


Your statement makes a certain amount of sense. When I was very young I opposed affirmative action. One of the smartest people at my high school was a black female. I thought, obviously, anyone would trip over themselves to accept her to their college or hire her. I thought affirmative action was insulting to people like her. Then I began to work at actual jobs versus, for instance, babysitting.

By the time I was 23 years old, I had done a 180. I had worked at places where I was not allowed to even provide an application to black people. I was required to say the business was out of applications. Resumes received from black people were not even kept on file. They were tossed directly into the trash. Funny thing about jobs like that, they manage to make the "acceptable" people allowed to work in such a place perfectly miserable. An owner/manager that dedicated to acting unjustly and inequitably certainly isn't going to treat the people s/he does hire fairly or respectfully.

I concede that other, non-race based, discrimination happens. After picking up a little experience and learning to stand my ground a bit, I worked in a retail store where I refused to have anything at all to do with applications. Personnel accepting applications had been directed to code the application indicating the race of the applicant and whether the applicant was fat. The store set a limited number of positions that could be held by non-white people and would not exceed that number. If you were fat, however, you weren't getting hired, period.

When you are young you imagine that people strive to be as intelligent, logical, and fair minded as possible. Then you live for a while and realize there are people who wallow in ignorance and darkness; that are deeply proud of their ignorance. That's when you realize some form of affirmative action is necessary though it may be an imperfect solution.

Sorry about going novel again. Lately, I've had thoughts and words bursting out of my ears and nostrils. It's really kind of gross.
2012-10-12 08:22:13 AM
5 votes:
Basing affirmative action on race is a practice that, in my opinion, should be ended.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.
2012-10-12 08:02:45 AM
4 votes:
It makes me giggle that "minority" in a college setting has come to mean black or hispanic, and asians are not included.
2012-10-12 10:24:44 AM
3 votes:
i.imgur.com

Pretty much all you need to know about why drawing attention to ethnic minorities (when there are many routes to expedited college admissions) is itself playing the racial card.
2012-10-12 09:38:51 AM
3 votes:
I think we first need to get over the "everyone deserves to go to college!" mindset.

College really is turning into high school 2.0
2012-10-12 08:54:54 AM
3 votes:
This is one of those areas where the federal government has to step in to do some leveling of the playing field. If not, we'll end up with too many college classrooms with zero black or hispanic faces and zero input from those people into the "elite" graduating from those schools.
If all we have are white people in the classrooms, we're mostly going to have white leaders. And if those white leaders have only seen minorities on TV or as part of their drug habit, then minorities are never going to get a fair shake.
The up and coming 50% minority population in this country has not enjoyed the same access to college as the former white majority, and we're going to have major problems as a society if we cannot produce enough integrated leaders.
2012-10-12 08:03:45 AM
3 votes:

Silly Jesus: Reverse racism isn't racism.


I'm not interested in the content of your statement. However, if you are a member of a protected minority, I will agree with it.
2012-10-12 07:53:12 AM
3 votes:
Affirmative action actually harms minorities. They get in over their heads, so to speak, and have a lower rate of graduation from more prestigious schools that they otherwise would not have qualified for.

Source: NPR
2012-10-12 07:47:29 AM
3 votes:
Or....we could just judge people not be the color of their skin but by the content of their charter, or in this case, mind.
2012-10-12 04:49:02 PM
2 votes:

Silly Jesus: Affirmative action actually harms minorities. They get in over their heads, so to speak, and have a lower rate of graduation from more prestigious schools that they otherwise would not have qualified for.


True that I have a friend who went through something like that as a Legacy Admission he flunked out his first year and had to take a year off where he smoked a bunch of pot and did remedial study.

Hint: In private schools legacy admissions are around 10% of the student body. While affirmative action and disadvantaged admits are 5%.
2012-10-12 10:17:13 AM
2 votes:

Silly Jesus: ChuDogg:


dneiwert.blogspot.com
2012-10-12 10:04:49 AM
2 votes:

Lunaville: Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.

Your statement makes a certain amount of sense. When I was very young I opposed affirmative action. One of the smartest people at my high school was a black female. I thought, obviously, anyone would trip over themselves to accept her to their college or hire her. I thought affirmative action was insulting to people like her. Then I began to work at actual jobs versus, for instance, babysitting.

By the time I was 23 years old, I had done a 180. I had worked at places where I was not allowed to even provide an application to black people. I was required to say the business was out of applications. Resumes received from black people were not even kept on file. They were tossed directly into the trash. Funny thing about jobs like that, they manage to make the "acceptable" people allowed to work in such a place perfectly miserable. An owner/manager that dedicated to acting unjustly and inequitably certainly isn't going to treat the people s/he does hire fairly or respectfully.

I concede that other, non-race based, discrimination happens. After picking up a little experience and learning to stand my ground a bit, I worked in a retail store where I refused to have anything at all to do with applications. Personnel accepting applications had been directed to code the application indicating the race of the applicant and whether the applicant was fat. The store set a limited number of positions that could be held by non-white people and would not exceed that number. If you were fat, however, you weren't getting hired, period.

When you are young you imagine that people strive to be as intelligent, logical, and fair mi ...


You're talking too much sense in this thread. The standard response is some knee-jerk, high-and-mighty, butthurt and distorting statement about how AA is an offense to god and flag, making sure to avoid looking at society at large and the still powerful forces AA was meants to address - admittedly, as with any large-scale issue imperfectly.

But no, almost everyone in this thread sounds like the young lady who brought this suit (her co-plaintiff has abandoned the case), a butthurt, whiny little thing the U of Texas has pointed out would not have made it into their school regardless. But apparently this was too much for the little snowflake to take and she had to cover her scholastic inadequacies by trying to take down a program that is helping hundreds of disadvantaged students. She is a buffoon for bringing this case.
2012-10-12 09:57:56 AM
2 votes:

ha-ha-guy: Affirmative action is just a band aid for the real issue, how public schools are funded. It's basically "Sorry you grew up in an impoverished area with no funding for the school and as such had almost no hope of scoring decently on the ACT/SAT. Here have some bonus points on an application to a college you'll most likely fail out of, we're cool now right?".

Fix the root of the problem, don't just toss students 4 years at a better school to make up for K-12 neglect.


There is a large element of truth in this. The overarching truth is that from birth, the playing field is not level. Affirmative Action is a clumsy and heavy handed way of leveling the playing field late in the game. The better solution would be to level the playing field earlier in life, but that is a complex problem that is not easily addressed.

The answer is not to stand at the top of the hill and say 'field looks perfectly level from where I am at, what's your problem?'
2012-10-12 09:46:34 AM
2 votes:
I just had an epiphany that would solve the issue at hand....

College applications should have no identifying information on them. Only your grades, test scores, etc.

No names, no DOBs, no addresses, just a randomly-generated ID number. When the applicant shows up for class, you'll be able to see who was worthy.

That's both equal and fair.
2012-10-12 09:35:29 AM
2 votes:

MycroftHolmes: Affirmative action may be a clumsy tool that can result in some negative consequence, but the need for some corrective mechanism to counteract institutional bias is undeniable, if the goal is an integrated, classless society of equal opportunity.


California tried to be progressive and create an integrated, raceless society. Problem is the people that benefit the most from non-integrated, race-based society voted against it(you know, non-whites. I can't say minorities because white is a minority in California.. guess they should get affirmative action).
2012-10-12 09:07:22 AM
2 votes:

zedster: time to dust this one off
[imageshack.us image 450x355]


colorlines.com
2012-10-12 09:02:12 AM
2 votes:
time to dust this one off
imageshack.us
2012-10-12 08:40:59 AM
2 votes:

Joe Blowme: what_now: Basing affirmative action on race is a practice that, in my opinion, should be ended.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.

So even if you scored a 20 on ACT and i scored 32, you should get in first because you are poor?


If you think this is the way Affirmative Action works then you should probably educate yourself before forming an opinion.
2012-10-12 08:40:50 AM
2 votes:

Joe Blowme: what_now: Basing affirmative action on race is a practice that, in my opinion, should be ended.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.

So even if you scored a 20 on ACT and i scored 32, you should get in first because you are poor?


Obviously there have to be standards. But admissions is not simply test scores, it's a whole metric of things- especially at the better schools. If a kid who grew up in a affluent suburb with parents who are college educated professionals has the same grades, skill set and test scores as a kid who grew up in poverty, went to a shiatty public high school and has no history of higher education I his family, then the second kid has clearly worked harder.
2012-10-12 08:18:21 AM
2 votes:

Silly Jesus: Affirmative action actually harms minorities. They get in over their heads, so to speak, and have a lower rate of graduation from more prestigious schools that they otherwise would not have qualified for.

Source: NPR


I'm sure that's probably true--the problem is the alternative--which is zero representation of anyone but European or Asian descent at any high end American schools. Which then throws in our face AND highlights institutionalized racism all at the same time.

Considering where these kids are starting from, Affirmative Action is sort of like a necessary evil. It is inherently unfair to make up for the societal unfairness of simply being born a different color. I'm not sure if that bodes well for it being constitutional, but I certainly support it.
2012-10-12 08:10:24 AM
2 votes:

Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.


of course, that would be true equity, but then some blacks might escape from the democratic party plantation.
2012-10-12 08:06:30 AM
2 votes:
While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.
2012-10-15 08:13:00 AM
1 votes:

rewind2846: no, academic achievement cannot and should not be the only factor in college admission. If I were to choose between two people, one who had the better schools in the wealthier part of town, whose parents were able to afford cello lessons, and who grew up with all the advantage that being a non-minority entails, versus the kid who had none of that and was knocked further down the socioeconomic ladder because they were a minority... I choose the kid who didn't get the breaks every time.

Why? Because I regard a person who earns 3.5 GPA from a neighborhood school which might be on lockdown once or twice a month due to a gang shooting much more highly than a person who earns a 4.0 from a school where a student's biggest problem might be whether to match the color of their prom dress to the car daddy bought them for their 16th birthday


You aren't dumb enough to believe all white kids live in the cello lesson world you describe and that all black kids go to crime ridden schools, so why support a program that only makes sense if that is the case?
2012-10-12 11:52:10 PM
1 votes:
I know a girl that didn't get into Princeton because of affirmative action. She's white. It was given to a black girl. It worked out since The University of Chicago covered her entire tuition plus gave her $5K a semester to join their college. It still isn't right to not get into a college just because of the non-color of her skin. Affirmative action is evil.
2012-10-12 03:57:29 PM
1 votes:

Silly Jesus: Here's a thought. Life isn't fair and we can never artificially make it that way. Some people are born losers, some people are born winners. This is how it has always been and how it will always be despite the "best" efforts of bleeding hearts and self congratulating do-gooders.


You sound like you like tea.

You know how you get over being born a loser? Have a rich daddy. George W. Bush is walking, breathing proof of this, as are so many other successful bozos who couldn't pour piss out of boot if the instructions were written on the heel.
2012-10-12 02:04:38 PM
1 votes:

bhcompy: Bontesla: bhcompy: Bontesla: bhcompy: ha-ha-guy: Affirmative action is just a band aid for the real issue, how public schools are funded. It's basically "Sorry you grew up in an impoverished area with no funding for the school and as such had almost no hope of scoring decently on the ACT/SAT. Here have some bonus points on an application to a college you'll most likely fail out of, we're cool now right?".

Fix the root of the problem, don't just toss students 4 years at a better school to make up for K-12 neglect.

California doesn't fund in such a manner, yet it produces the same results(poor urban districts actually get more money per student than more affluent suburbs in general, and way more than middle class suburbs). So don't give me that bullshiat. The problem isn't the schools, it's the people, it's the culture, it's the acceptance of anything but success. Asian dad meme is a stereotype based in fact, but Asian dad meme doesn't have to be an Asian dad, it can be any dad, and that will generate success.

A well resourced school doesn't remove systematic and institutional bias. Why would you think it would?

What bias would that be? Whites are a minority of faculty at LAUSD schools.

Numerical minority isn't the same thing as having a minority status.

Why would you assume that bias must be driven by white instructors?

Minority is minority.

Regardless, answer the question if it's something else.


It's not the same. You're being daft. Or you're simply an idiot.
Answered this question upthread. Ctrl+F Bontesla.
2012-10-12 02:02:37 PM
1 votes:

taurusowner: Or....we could just judge people not be the color of their skin but by the content of their charter, or in this case, mind.


Yeah, well I'm old enough to remember when schools weren't integrated. And I've sat in on racist discussions by my fellow honky crackers within the last week where they opined that the REAL problem America faces is that white males don't hold all positions of power.

We should give some brothers a break. Really.

/Very hard to keep some of my old friends as friends.
2012-10-12 12:58:15 PM
1 votes:

Gdalescrboz: ChuDogg

Do you realize people like you are the primary reason for rascism today? You have caused a backlash against minorities with your attempts at white guilt. You can scream and biatch and moan all you want about how I, a 26 year old white male whos voting block put the first minority into the oval office, owe you, a person who is distantly related to people who were discriminated against, something. fark you for holding minorities back


Lol @ at this argument again "I'm only racist because people like you made me racist!". I know its so tough being white and being reminded of your privelege every now and then.

I've only argued that in an egalitarian society white males would make up positions of power that reflect their porportion of the people around the globe. How could anybody but a racist disagree with that?
2012-10-12 11:15:04 AM
1 votes:

PallMall: College is for higher education. Some folks just aren't cut out for it.


And a runner-up!

Here's one of the problem we have today: we send too many people to college. Historically, only about 18% of the population has been admitted to college. It's really all we need. This has increased in recent years, but the completion rate has not gone up; in fact as a percentage of freshmen admitted, it has done down. Too many students either wash out of college or quit before they complete their degree. Only 44% of freshmen entering college graduate. Drop out rates of minorities is much higher than that of whites. This is because they simply are not adequately prepared for college level work. This isn't because they aren't as intelligent, but because the public schools they attend are so bad.
2012-10-12 11:11:45 AM
1 votes:

JesusJuice: ChuDogg: TimonC346: Silly Jesus: Affirmative action actually harms minorities. They get in over their heads, so to speak, and have a lower rate of graduation from more prestigious schools that they otherwise would not have qualified for.

Source: NPR

I'm sure that's probably true--the problem is the alternative--which is zero representation of anyone but European or Asian descent at any high end American schools. Which then throws in our face AND highlights institutionalized racism all at the same time.

Considering where these kids are starting from, Affirmative Action is sort of like a necessary evil. It is inherently unfair to make up for the societal unfairness of simply being born a different color. I'm not sure if that bodes well for it being constitutional, but I certainly support it.

Asian people cannot be racist because they are not institutionalized. Traditionally racism is something that has been exlusively the domain of the white male power structure. To undo centuries of oppression, slavery and rape affirmitive action is needed to place white males below women and people of color. Centuries of oppression are not reversed in a few years, thus affirmitive action is needed until whites in power represent their true numbers on this black planet (a tiny minority).

Asians only achieve status due to the "model minority" stigma. The whites say jump and they say "how high" look good little worker bees in this hyper capitalist dystopia. I don't feel the need to apologize that blacks and browns have taken an alternate path and decide to take what is owed to us.

Nobody owes you shiat. If your ancestors hadn't been enslaved, you'd be squatting in the mud in some filthy African shiathole with a distended stomach and blowflies crawling on you. It was white people who saved you from Africa, white people who freed you, and white people who send you your welfare checks. Show some gratitude.


Lol. Finally the hoods come off.

Step up your game. Blacks are here and we have the will to compete. Luckily its your own white women mostly who actually gives opportunities to black on school boards and HR departments. Luckily the old school white boys don't nearly have as much privelege as they used to, not to say they still don't, but its fading fast and the first wave of blacks making their name as true equals have shown their talents and skills cant be quelled any longer from racist whites.

Honestly I think a lot of you are scared of your insecurities. I guess I don't blame you, I wouldn't want to be some scared peckerwood on a black planet. All I can say is get used to it. I ain't staying quiet like my grandfathers did.
2012-10-12 10:55:06 AM
1 votes:

Orgasmatron138: Joe Blowme: Legalized racism, pure and simple.

Considering we had it the opposite direction for hundreds of years, white people won't have anything to complain about until about 2360.


Go apply to a British school, then. The balance clock on legalized racism ran out in 1955, and was reset by the deaths of 4% of the white population.
2012-10-12 10:42:25 AM
1 votes:
Swap 'racial' diversity for economic/geographic diversity.
e.g. give 'tie-breaker' points to people from under-represented ZIP codes. and under-represented economic classes, etc

The practical effect of that *would be* more diversity. The truly desirable kind (giving opportunities to people who -- statistically and objectively -- haven't been getting them, regardless of the reason.)
You'd side-step race itself as the talking point and future-proof it against new definitions of minority status or reversals of minority fortune.
(i.e. it would be safe from the crap that paranoid white people worry about: what happens when they're the minority. what happens when liberal academics play word games to make minorities out of everyone but the conservative "real 'merkans" and thus discriminate against *them*. etc)
2012-10-12 10:41:53 AM
1 votes:

PallMall: dustygrimp: There should be a better procedure for selections. There are kids with good test scores who are going to get there and drink their way through 2 semesters before dropping out the same as there are kids with lower test scores who will get there and bust their asses to graduate cum laude.

Basing college admissions on scores and grades only assumes all scores and grades from all sources are standardized.

Who cares if they drink themselves through semesters and dropping out? It's their money! If they drop out, then there will be an opening next round of classes.


Your argument was that those with the test scores and grades are deserving. Some of those withe the grades and scores are not. As an admissions officer I would rather have good kids that work hard than smart kids that bring down my graduation rate by boozing their way out of school. By the way, that's who cares. The colleges.
2012-10-12 10:41:10 AM
1 votes:

Lunaville: Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.

Your statement makes a certain amount of sense. When I was very young I opposed affirmative action. One of the smartest people at my high school was a black female. I thought, obviously, anyone would trip over themselves to accept her to their college or hire her. I thought affirmative action was insulting to people like her. Then I began to work at actual jobs versus, for instance, babysitting.

By the time I was 23 years old, I had done a 180. I had worked at places where I was not allowed to even provide an application to black people. I was required to say the business was out of applications. Resumes received from black people were not even kept on file. They were tossed directly into the trash. Funny thing about jobs like that, they manage to make the "acceptable" people allowed to work in such a place perfectly miserable. An owner/manager that dedicated to acting unjustly and inequitably certainly isn't going to treat the people s/he does hire fairly or respectfully.

I concede that other, non-race based, discrimination happens. After picking up a little experience and learning to stand my ground a bit, I worked in a retail store where I refused to have anything at all to do with applications. Personnel accepting applications had been directed to code the application indicating the race of the applicant and whether the applicant was fat. The store set a limited number of positions that could be held by non-white people and would not exceed that number. If you were fat, however, you weren't getting hired, period.

When you are young you imagine that people strive to be as intelligent, logical, and fair m ...


I was opposed to AA and, having experienced some of the same things you did, came to the conclusion that not only am I still opposed to AA, I believe that business owners should be allowed to be complete bigots. I am happiest if they wear it on their sleeve. That allows me to make sure I never do business with them.

Every company sells capacity -whatever that capacity is. Every company's competitors can get the same capacity it can. In order to make one company's capacity more attractive than another's, that company needs to differentiate its capacity. The way to do that is with the people a company hires. Every employee has something to offer. The best managers are going to figure out what that is and utilize a person's capabilities to the fullest and reward those employees who are most effectively selling that capacity.

If you have a bigot who doesn't want to hire blacks, for example, that bigot is passing by a whole bunch of capacity differentiation. If there is a black who could best fulfill a position and make his company most effective, he'll never know because he wont hire him. Meanwhile, an intelligent competitor of his will hire that black person and they'll both make money. When you force a bigot to hire a minority, I can guarantee you (from about 40 years of experience) that the bigot will not utilize that employee effectively. That is not only a waste of good talent, it deprives a non-bigot of the opportunity to utilize the talents of that minority and afford both the minority and the other business owner of the opportunity to succeed. And, in the meantime, the bigot can trot out his AA employee to prove that he's not a bigot and unsuspecting customers who don't like bigotry will be suckered into doing business with him.

I'm not suggesting that life will be easy for minorities. But success can be attained by those who are willing to go after it. There are too many examples of minorities who have made it in spite of discrimination to argue otherwise. In my opinion, a lot of the discouragement amongst minorities comes from dealing with "closeted" bigots - those who can hide behind AA while still using subtler forms of discrimination. That starts, for many, in the elementary schools with teachers and school administrators and continues all the way through their working life.

It has been demonstrated that minorities who are admitted with lesser standards into top ranked schools have a higher drop out rate. In schools that are operated by minorities or less prestigious schools, minorities' success rate is much better. Has anyone ever done a study to see if that success rate has anything to do with the attitude of faculty and staff at the various institutions? I have a suspicion (not in any way scientifically validated) that there is certain amount of bigotry amongst professors and staff at prestigious schools toward the poor and minorities that isn't found in, for example, black colleges.

AA, in my opinion, tells minorities that they are incapable of achieving without the help of their "betters." Is that a message that is supposed to help them with the confidence that they can achieve?
2012-10-12 10:35:53 AM
1 votes:
There is abundant and growing evidence that academic success is determined by the knowledge and vocabulary that you were exposed to by age six. The number of books in the home is a strong indicator of future success. Kids from uppper and upper middle socioeconomic levels start school with an advantage.

While race relations have improved considerably since the advent of affirmative action, you have to be delusional or deliberately blind to claim that there's no racism or advantage to being white. And I could argue that being Asian confers advantages over being black or Hispanic.

I think adding a socioeconomic component would help even the playing field. The child of a couple of black doctors has advantages that the child of a couple of semi-employed white people with low level jobs. But the child of the black doctors it's still subject to racism, although that person is probably facing a more subtle form of racism. And nobody crosses the street to avoid a young Asian man.

It's also true that a black culture of deriding academic success is a problem. The smart black kid who gets good grades but lives in a poor black inner city neighborhood isn't going this have many friends and is going to get beat up for walking home from school carrying textbooks.

The Texas policy of guaranteed admissions to the top 10% isn't really fair. The grades that put you in the top 10% at one school may only be in the 11%-15% at another school.

I grew up in Maryland and when I was in high school, UM had guaranteed admissions for state residents, meaning that you were admitted if you met a certain GPA/SAT level. This is no longer the case.

This issue is more complicated than simple affirmative action.

My husband is a computer programmer, currently works for a large defense contractor. But he has also worked for small and large private companies. Programming is very merit based, you need specific technical skills and certain programming languages for any position and they don't seem to care what kind of name or skin color a person has. His workplaces have always been very diverse but the only black programmers he's worked with were African immigrants. He's a senior guy so here reviews resumes and does interviews. I know how he reviews resumes, he looks for specific skills and about of experience; he doesn't look at the name until he's calling someone in for an interviewe. He told me that he's never even interviewed a non-immigrant black programmer.
2012-10-12 10:31:55 AM
1 votes:

Frank N Stein: I must say that the best way to get minorities into college would be a reform of our public education system.


Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner!

Colleges and universities cannot admit unqualified students just because they happen to be minorities. It is a disservice to all students and especially the minorities. Under-representation of minorities was once a racial problem, but this has not been the case for over 30 years. Today, it is a social problem that Affirmative Action cannot resolve.
2012-10-12 10:24:06 AM
1 votes:

Bontesla: bhcompy: ha-ha-guy: Affirmative action is just a band aid for the real issue, how public schools are funded. It's basically "Sorry you grew up in an impoverished area with no funding for the school and as such had almost no hope of scoring decently on the ACT/SAT. Here have some bonus points on an application to a college you'll most likely fail out of, we're cool now right?".

Fix the root of the problem, don't just toss students 4 years at a better school to make up for K-12 neglect.

California doesn't fund in such a manner, yet it produces the same results(poor urban districts actually get more money per student than more affluent suburbs in general, and way more than middle class suburbs). So don't give me that bullshiat. The problem isn't the schools, it's the people, it's the culture, it's the acceptance of anything but success. Asian dad meme is a stereotype based in fact, but Asian dad meme doesn't have to be an Asian dad, it can be any dad, and that will generate success.

A well resourced school doesn't remove systematic and institutional bias. Why would you think it would?


What bias would that be? Whites are a minority of faculty at LAUSD schools.
2012-10-12 10:03:12 AM
1 votes:
As someone who went to a low class, black and hispanic majority school, I must say that the best way to get minorities into college would be a reform of our public education system. It's a personal anecdote, yes, but I know that more than a few fellow classmates had any sort of desire to learn crushed by the soul-killing hellhole that is Bloom High School.

www.trulia.com
Blue=Bloom High School
Light blue=District
Grey=Illinois Average

The place is full of teachers who don't care, teachers that are racists, administration that are only there because of political connections, and students that don't want to be there. Young teachers, ones that generally do care, are soon driven out of this school
2012-10-12 10:01:50 AM
1 votes:

Silly Jesus: MycroftHolmes: Frank N Stein: ChuDogg: Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

[oag.org image 721x475]

Yes, the insatiable appetite for educations that blacks have is undeniable.

LOL. You beat down a group, put them at a disadvantage, and then tell them it is their fault when they can't break the cycle that you put them in. Well done. People like you are what convince me that, despite be clumsy and heavy handed, programs like affirmative action are essential.

You have to want to improve your lot in life in order for it to actually improve. Drive through your local projects in the middle of the day and look at all of the people who could be out applying for a job or working or doing anything other than what they are doing.


There is some element of truth in that, but it goes deeper than that. Look at the people who have been unemployed during the recession, a lot of them have given up hope after 2 years of failure.

Now, imagine your whole life, every time you try, society, in some way, shape, or form, tells you that you can't succeed, you belong in the projects. Eventually, you start believing it, even become proud of it as a way of defending your ego and become part of the system to perpetuate the cycle.

The culture of projects and ghettos is a symptom, not a cause, of the problem. It is part of the cycle. Break the cycle, and then everyone will at least have a fighting chance.
2012-10-12 10:01:18 AM
1 votes:
I have a Pakistani friend and we were both talking about going to college (13 years ago). We had similar grades, scores and activities. His dad was/is the premier heart surgeon of the region, they live in a 16,000 sf mansion with elevators, indoor pool etc...(that they also paid cash for)

I was talking about how hard it was gonna be for me to put myself through school, not complaining just talking about what I needed to do, since my parents couldn't do it given my mother was dying.

He said: "That sucks man, wanna hear something stupid? I was given a full ride because I'm Pakistani"
2012-10-12 09:54:58 AM
1 votes:
Affirmative action is just a band aid for the real issue, how public schools are funded. It's basically "Sorry you grew up in an impoverished area with no funding for the school and as such had almost no hope of scoring decently on the ACT/SAT. Here have some bonus points on an application to a college you'll most likely fail out of, we're cool now right?".

Fix the root of the problem, don't just toss students 4 years at a better school to make up for K-12 neglect.
2012-10-12 09:50:26 AM
1 votes:

ChuDogg: Private_Citizen: If they really want to give people a leg up, don't base it on skin color, base it on economic status. Being poor makes it hard to succeed, regardless of your race. If a disadvantaged student can score as well as a privildged one, you know which one has the talent and the drive - and which one coasted.

The problem with this "logic" is that poor white boys who complain about this just didn't take advantage of the priveleges and opportunties that were offered to them. At every stage a life of helping hand was offered in school and work, yet they either partied or were just lazy. Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

Now I'm supposed to be told by some white priveleged dude that he had it worse than the ghetto cuz his momma was poor too? Lol


You're probably just trolling, but in case you actually believe the drivel you just spouted:

No, if you're poor, it sucks. Period. In your fevered brain, you may imagine that poor white people are somehow treated better than poor blacks - but I assure you, hunger could care less about your skin color. Crappy clothes, worn out shoes and no coat don't care if your in the hood or the hills. And getting hit by an alcoholic parent hurts whether your hair is straight or curly.

Overcoming poverty and scoring as well as a priviledged kid shows raw talent and a drive to succeed. That should be rewarded when it comes time to get into a college.
2012-10-12 09:49:04 AM
1 votes:

MycroftHolmes: Frank N Stein: ChuDogg: Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

[oag.org image 721x475]

Yes, the insatiable appetite for educations that blacks have is undeniable.

LOL. You beat down a group, put them at a disadvantage, and then tell them it is their fault when they can't break the cycle that you put them in. Well done. People like you are what convince me that, despite be clumsy and heavy handed, programs like affirmative action are essential.


Did you look at the top line on the graph?
2012-10-12 09:47:10 AM
1 votes:

Frank N Stein: ChuDogg: Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

[oag.org image 721x475]

Yes, the insatiable appetite for educations that blacks have is undeniable.


LOL. You beat down a group, put them at a disadvantage, and then tell them it is their fault when they can't break the cycle that you put them in. Well done. People like you are what convince me that, despite be clumsy and heavy handed, programs like affirmative action are essential.
2012-10-12 09:45:16 AM
1 votes:

ChuDogg: Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.


oag.org

Yes, the insatiable appetite for educations that blacks have is undeniable.
2012-10-12 09:44:45 AM
1 votes:

serial_crusher: Just curious, how old are you? Because it doesn't sound like you're (accurately) describing the environment that present-day college applicants grew up in. What privileges do poor white kids get that poor black kids don't?


Are you honestly saying that if you take wo kids, one white, one black, and dress them up the same, they will be treated the same by society, whether it is interacting with police, applying for a job, etc.? I don't buy this.
2012-10-12 09:39:34 AM
1 votes:

serial_crusher: Bontesla: Ha. If you think the white students were there only because of merit then you're part of the problem. White students, specifically affluent white students, are given the advantage since birth.

So, do you genuinely think that affluent black students don't get the same or equivalent opportunities from birth?
That's why race is a shiatty determiner. Being poor is actually what causes most of the problems you're mentioning. (Except maybe the bit about how different teachers respond to different students).

If you gave preference based on parental income, I'd be a little less pissed than I am giving preference based on race. I've got my own slew of anecdotes about how parental income is irrelevant to some students.


Absolutely. Affluent white kids are given more opportunities and advantages than affluent black kids. Affluent black kids more than poor black kids.

I'm okay with race-based Affirmative Action but I'd also like to see it expanded to socioeconmic status, too.
2012-10-12 09:36:47 AM
1 votes:
Just no way a person can be for affirmative action and not be racist.

Also, not one single study, anywhere, ever, has shown a benefit to forced diversity. Only study ever admitted to a court was in the Grutter case, it showed affirmative action actually pisses everyone off, white and minorities.

Liberals are ruining everything.

Base everything on merit, as it should be.
2012-10-12 09:35:58 AM
1 votes:
If you ant to help the disadvantaged, help the poor.

If you want diversity, look at their experience on their application.

Race based affirmative action at this point is like using a web of wrongs to make a right.
2012-10-12 09:35:13 AM
1 votes:

Dadoody: Screw affirmative action. Affirmative action should be action at the individual level.

I know MANY Asians who came to this country with nothing, their parents worked in sweat jobs and menial labor, but stressed education and direction. Most of their kids went on to graduate from college, and become doctors, lawyers, professionals.

On the flipside, I know many kids born in this country (regardless of race) with a damn silver spoon in their mouths, always got the best clothing, newest video game systems, latest computer and gadget, and don't even make an attempt to make anything of themselves, yet think the country/world OWES THEM a comfortable life.


One girl I knew from college, named Thanh, had a BAYONET scar in her back as a NV solder had rammed it at her as she was fleeing the country with her family. Her family made it onto a boat and to the ocean, but half of them died from exposure and starvation. The rest of them were somehow saved by US Navy, came here with nothing and have done more with that nothing than many American born have done with ALL the resources they could ever need at their disposal. Blacks, Hispanics, Whites, and even American born Asians.
2012-10-12 09:31:28 AM
1 votes:
Screw affirmative action. Affirmative action should be action at the individual level.

I know MANY Asians who came to this country with nothing, their parents worked in sweat jobs and menial labor, but stressed education and direction. Most of their kids went on to graduate from college, and become doctors, lawyers, professionals.

On the flipside, I know many kids born in this country (regardless of race) with a damn silver spoon in their mouths, always got the best clothing, newest video game systems, latest computer and gadget, and don't even make an attempt to make anything of themselves, yet think the country/world OWES THEM a comfortable life.
2012-10-12 09:27:06 AM
1 votes:

Bontesla: Ha. If you think the white students were there only because of merit then you're part of the problem. White students, specifically affluent white students, are given the advantage since birth.


So, do you genuinely think that affluent black students don't get the same or equivalent opportunities from birth?
That's why race is a shiatty determiner. Being poor is actually what causes most of the problems you're mentioning. (Except maybe the bit about how different teachers respond to different students).

If you gave preference based on parental income, I'd be a little less pissed than I am giving preference based on race. I've got my own slew of anecdotes about how parental income is irrelevant to some students.
2012-10-12 09:25:25 AM
1 votes:
I can't remember what show I was watching, but these two guys were making the case to scrap AA as it is and move towards a socio-economic model that favors PEOPLE that are broke-ass. Doesn't matter what colour they are, but if they are poor and want to get edgjumacated, off they go.

To quote the great Michael Scott - "I'm collar blind".
2012-10-12 09:23:26 AM
1 votes:

Dear Jerk: Studies have shown that minorities who got through college on affirmative action do just as well in their careers as other graduates from the same schools. That points out the fact that America is all about opportunity. I'd be willing to get rid of affirmative action if we could also get rid of nepotism and cronyism, which are exponentially more of a problem. In fact, affirmative action was created a slight remedy to nepotism and cronyism. If you're a mediocre white kid who didn't get admitted to the college of your choice, you can fight for real justice, or you can be practical and network better. You have that opportunity.

/ I got suckered in by Shelby Steele's 'Content of Their Character' when it came out. Until I realized that it assumes a level playing field. The level playing field is a given in conservative logic.


This is spot on. The whole idea of judging people based on their merit should only be applied to affirmative action if it can be equally applied to all other candidates as well. And since so much is based on interviews and rapport, and people naturally form rapport with people who are similar to them, it iwill be almost impossible to ever have a system that is entirely merit based.

Affirmative action may be a clumsy tool that can result in some negative consequence, but the need for some corrective mechanism to counteract institutional bias is undeniable, if the goal is an integrated, classless society of equal opportunity.
2012-10-12 09:19:16 AM
1 votes:
Studies have shown that minorities who got through college on affirmative action do just as well in their careers as other graduates from the same schools. That points out the fact that America is all about opportunity. I'd be willing to get rid of affirmative action if we could also get rid of nepotism and cronyism, which are exponentially more of a problem. In fact, affirmative action was created a slight remedy to nepotism and cronyism. If you're a mediocre white kid who didn't get admitted to the college of your choice, you can fight for real justice, or you can be practical and network better. You have that opportunity.

/ I got suckered in by Shelby Steele's 'Content of Their Character' when it came out. Until I realized that it assumes a level playing field. The level playing field is a given in conservative logic.
2012-10-12 09:14:08 AM
1 votes:

Bontesla: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: PallMall: Race, ethnicity, color, religion, etc should have NOTHING to do with getting in to college. Affirmative action hurts otherwise qualified candidates from getting there.

Completely agree. And it's horribly condescending when it's suggested that somehow we're hurt by it. I don't feel like my graduate education was negatively impacted by not having racial minorities in the problem. It was, however, dramatically enhanced by having some incredibly bright people around me from diverse educational backgrounds. Replacing one of them with a token black guy would have been detrimental.

Ha. If you think the white students were there only because of merit then you're part of the problem. White students, specifically affluent white students, are given the advantage since birth.

Take tracking as a great example. Schools that participate in tracking actually invest in the students they decide have the best opportunities for future achievement. Academics play a role - but so does parental involvement, parental education levels, student neatness, appearance, and so on.

Once selected as someone the school will track for success - the teachers are encouraged to befriend the families, tutor the children (or find tutuors), and separate that student from the herd.

And if you don't think your school tracks students then you weren't a chosen one. Most schools track.

There are many other examples of the types of advantages bestowed upon white students - specifically affluent white students. The race of a teacher plays a HUGE role in how that teacher will teach students of different races. In several studies - white teachers were shown to call on white students to answer questions more often. White teachers were more often willing to make exceptions for white students. Black teachers were harder on struggling black students than they were on white students.

A single bad teacher can set a student behind an entire academic year whereas a single good tea ...


So, essentially, if you're not smart enough to get into a good school, it's the fault of society, teachers, parents etc.
2012-10-12 09:07:01 AM
1 votes:
I would be curious to know how many of the people speaking against affirmative action are memebers of a traditionally repressed minority class.

Sure, Affirmative action is, by it's very nature, racist. But if you take away the racism that helps minorities without addressing the institutional and cultural racism that harms them, you are not helping the problem.

The problem is a good deal more complex than that, but I don't think simplistic stances like 'we should only judge people by their actions' and 'we should remove raced based decisions', while appealing to idealists, are practical or fair social policy
2012-10-12 09:03:37 AM
1 votes:

Bontesla: Joe Blowme: what_now: Basing affirmative action on race is a practice that, in my opinion, should be ended.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.

So even if you scored a 20 on ACT and i scored 32, you should get in first because you are poor?

If you think this is the way Affirmative Action works then you should probably educate yourself before forming an opinion.


says the person who cant quite comprehend the post they comment on.
2012-10-12 09:00:42 AM
1 votes:

Bontesla: Lunaville: Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.

Your statement makes a certain amount of sense. When I was very young I opposed affirmative action. One of the smartest people at my high school was a black female. I thought, obviously, anyone would trip over themselves to accept her to their college or hire her. I thought affirmative action was insulting to people like her. Then I began to work at actual jobs versus, for instance, babysitting.

By the time I was 23 years old, I had done a 180. I had worked at places where I was not allowed to even provide an application to black people. I was required to say the business was out of applications. Resumes received from black people were not even kept on file. They were tossed directly into the trash. Funny thing about jobs like that, they manage to make the "acceptable" people allowed to work in such a place perfectly miserable. An owner/manager that dedicated to acting unjustly and inequitably certainly isn't going to treat the people s/he does hire fairly or respectfully.

I concede that other, non-race based, discrimination happens. After picking up a little experience and learning to stand my ground a bit, I worked in a retail store where I refused to have anything at all to do with applications. Personnel accepting applications had been directed to code the application indicating the race of the applicant and whether the applicant was fat. The store set a limited number of positions that could be held by non-white people and would not exceed that number. If you were fat, however, you weren't getting hired, period.

When you are young you imagine that people strive to be as intelligent, logical, ...


Honestly, would you not feel any differently calling in for customer service and someone answering "Hi, this is Sha-nay-nay." vs "Hi, this is Michelle?"

Sha-nay-nay just sounds less professional than Michelle. I don't think that that is necessarily a race thing, it's just a ridiculous phonetic name vs. a traditional name thing.
2012-10-12 08:59:30 AM
1 votes:

Kaymon: When you consider that birth rates plummet with increases in women's education, you'd think the racists would be screaming to get minority women in college.


Read the above posts, they are.
2012-10-12 08:57:31 AM
1 votes:
When you consider that birth rates plummet with increases in women's education, you'd think the racists would be screaming to get minority women in college.
2012-10-12 08:49:49 AM
1 votes:
'MERICA!
where we're all equal

..until someone decides that a racial group is inferior and needs their help to be like everyone else.

so awesome
2012-10-12 08:49:14 AM
1 votes:
If we get rid of affirmative action, we better just accept that white people no longer get into MIT.
2012-10-12 08:46:26 AM
1 votes:

david_gaithersburg: TimonC346: Silly Jesus: Affirmative action actually harms minorities. They get in over their heads, so to speak, and have a lower rate of graduation from more prestigious schools that they otherwise would not have qualified for.

Source: NPR

I'm sure that's probably true--the problem is the alternative--which is zero representation of anyone but European or Asian descent at any high end American schools. Which then throws in our face AND highlights institutionalized racism all at the same time.

Considering where these kids are starting from, Affirmative Action is sort of like a necessary evil. It is inherently unfair to make up for the societal unfairness of simply being born a different color. I'm not sure if that bodes well for it being constitutional, but I certainly support it.

^^^^^^^^^^

Wow! Just come out and say what you really think, people of certain races are genetically inferior. That is what you are saying, I simply summed up your thought using fewer words.


You simply said what you always say in these threads. "I'm a poor, oppressed peckerwood and all the minorities are taking away my opportunities and I have a small penis :("
2012-10-12 08:39:06 AM
1 votes:

Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.


This.

Let's not preted what affluent kids have more bootstrappy gentic material. They were given advantages that the poor children were not. Affirmative Action should be geared at redistributing advantage.
2012-10-12 08:37:31 AM
1 votes:
What an utter waste of time this case is. Regardless of its merits, Elena Justice Kagan, has recused herself because she did some work on it when she was Solicitor General. So there's a 4-4 court, which will come down along predictable lines. When the Court's vote is tied, the law in question must remain unchanged.

Based on what I have read, this young lady would not have been admitted regardless of any consideration of race. Her HS academic performance and SAT scores simply were not high enough and her composite score in UT's formula just a tad too low for her to be admitted. Close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades.
2012-10-12 08:35:56 AM
1 votes:
While we have the hood up, can we get rid of athletic scholarships? Admitting someone to a college because they can dribble well is dumb.
2012-10-12 08:35:24 AM
1 votes:
Incidentally, UT says race wasn't a factor in the girl not getting accepted. Maybe they just didn't want someone who blames her failures on other people.
2012-10-12 08:31:26 AM
1 votes:

Joe Blowme: what_now: Basing affirmative action on race is a practice that, in my opinion, should be ended.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.

So even if you scored a 20 on ACT and i scored 32, you should get in first because you are poor?


Should the ability to do well on a standardized test be the only criteria for entry?
2012-10-12 08:26:39 AM
1 votes:

TimonC346: I'm sure that's probably true--the problem is the alternative--which is zero representation of anyone but European or Asian descent at any high end American schools. Which then throws in our face AND highlights institutionalized racism all at the same time.

Considering where these kids are starting from, Affirmative Action is sort of like a necessary evil. It is inherently unfair to make up for the societal unfairness of simply being born a different color. I'm not sure if that bodes well for it being constitutional, but I certainly support it.


Race, ethnicity, color, religion, etc should have NOTHING to do with getting in to college. Affirmative action hurts otherwise qualified candidates from getting there.

College admissions should be based on scores, and the prospective student's competence.
2012-10-12 08:23:06 AM
1 votes:
Legalized racism, pure and simple.
2012-10-12 08:18:25 AM
1 votes:
Long ago I attended William Paterson College in NJ. I stopped taking classes there the day I saw a brother bopping about with a huge boombox radio on his shoulder, wearing a thick wool cap on a very hot day. People that play a 15 year old stereotype give me a sad.
2012-10-12 07:47:16 AM
1 votes:
Suuby apparently isn't clear on the concept of "same opportunity".
 
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