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(Reuters)   Supreme Court is divided over an affirmative action case involving college admissions. Come on, why shouldn't minorities have the same opportunity to get mired hopelessly deep in college loan debt like anyone else?   (reuters.com) divider line 300
    More: Followup, Justice Kennedy, supreme courts, University and college admissions, Justice Antonin Scalia, Solicitor General of the United States, strict scrutiny, Stephen Breyer, Chief Justice John Roberts  
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3915 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Oct 2012 at 7:45 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-12 07:47:16 AM
Suuby apparently isn't clear on the concept of "same opportunity".
 
2012-10-12 07:47:27 AM
Reverse racism isn't racism.
 
2012-10-12 07:47:29 AM
Or....we could just judge people not be the color of their skin but by the content of their charter, or in this case, mind.
 
2012-10-12 07:48:01 AM
Because thanks to Affirmative action, college students are not being weighed on academics and potential alone, but based on their race?

Just a thought for those who weren't in the top 10% of their High School Class in Texas.
 
2012-10-12 07:53:12 AM
Affirmative action actually harms minorities. They get in over their heads, so to speak, and have a lower rate of graduation from more prestigious schools that they otherwise would not have qualified for.

Source: NPR
 
2012-10-12 07:53:28 AM
Good work guys. Seriously, you all nailed it, and I have nothing more to add.
 
2012-10-12 08:00:22 AM
Affirmative action needs to be done away with everywhere. Let's start at the top... with the office of the President.
 
2012-10-12 08:02:45 AM
It makes me giggle that "minority" in a college setting has come to mean black or hispanic, and asians are not included.
 
2012-10-12 08:03:45 AM

Silly Jesus: Reverse racism isn't racism.


I'm not interested in the content of your statement. However, if you are a member of a protected minority, I will agree with it.
 
2012-10-12 08:06:30 AM
While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.
 
2012-10-12 08:09:15 AM

zamboni: Silly Jesus: Reverse racism isn't racism.

I'm not interested in the content of your statement. However, if you are a member of a protected minority, I will agree with it.


www.legaljuice.com
 
2012-10-12 08:10:24 AM

Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.


of course, that would be true equity, but then some blacks might escape from the democratic party plantation.
 
2012-10-12 08:13:52 AM
Affirmative action helps minorities?

Since when...?




www.profilebrand.com
 
2012-10-12 08:18:21 AM

Silly Jesus: Affirmative action actually harms minorities. They get in over their heads, so to speak, and have a lower rate of graduation from more prestigious schools that they otherwise would not have qualified for.

Source: NPR


I'm sure that's probably true--the problem is the alternative--which is zero representation of anyone but European or Asian descent at any high end American schools. Which then throws in our face AND highlights institutionalized racism all at the same time.

Considering where these kids are starting from, Affirmative Action is sort of like a necessary evil. It is inherently unfair to make up for the societal unfairness of simply being born a different color. I'm not sure if that bodes well for it being constitutional, but I certainly support it.
 
2012-10-12 08:18:25 AM
Long ago I attended William Paterson College in NJ. I stopped taking classes there the day I saw a brother bopping about with a huge boombox radio on his shoulder, wearing a thick wool cap on a very hot day. People that play a 15 year old stereotype give me a sad.
 
2012-10-12 08:22:13 AM
Basing affirmative action on race is a practice that, in my opinion, should be ended.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.
 
2012-10-12 08:23:06 AM
Legalized racism, pure and simple.
 
2012-10-12 08:23:32 AM

Molavian: It makes me giggle that "minority" in a college setting has come to mean black or hispanic, and asians are not included.


That's because there aren't enough of them.
 
2012-10-12 08:25:11 AM

what_now: Basing affirmative action on race is a practice that, in my opinion, should be ended.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.


So even if you scored a 20 on ACT and i scored 32, you should get in first because you are poor?
 
2012-10-12 08:25:26 AM

KrispyKritter: Long ago I attended William Paterson College in NJ. I stopped taking classes there the day I saw a brother bopping about with a huge boombox radio on his shoulder, wearing a thick wool cap on a very hot day. People that play a 15 year old stereotype give me a sad.


Are you saying that seeing that guy made you decide to stop attending classes or was it something else entirely and you just happened to see that dude on the same day?
 
2012-10-12 08:26:39 AM

TimonC346: I'm sure that's probably true--the problem is the alternative--which is zero representation of anyone but European or Asian descent at any high end American schools. Which then throws in our face AND highlights institutionalized racism all at the same time.

Considering where these kids are starting from, Affirmative Action is sort of like a necessary evil. It is inherently unfair to make up for the societal unfairness of simply being born a different color. I'm not sure if that bodes well for it being constitutional, but I certainly support it.


Race, ethnicity, color, religion, etc should have NOTHING to do with getting in to college. Affirmative action hurts otherwise qualified candidates from getting there.

College admissions should be based on scores, and the prospective student's competence.
 
2012-10-12 08:26:48 AM

what_now: Basing affirmative action on race is a practice that, in my opinion, should be ended.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.


SillyJesus posted a great piece by NPR that talked about statistics where some minority students just aren't ready. Colleges, if using race based admissions, should help them get ready and allow for an extra year to get the kids up to speed. If Colleges are willing to undertake a project to better a student based on race, go the full mile.
 
2012-10-12 08:28:50 AM

Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.


This.

As for the headline, minorities have the same opportunities for college they shouldn't get special ones based on race.
 
2012-10-12 08:29:13 AM

Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.


Yeah, because if there's anything a university needs, it to increase the percentage of its students who have losers for parents, and are therefore double-dosing the loser gene.

On the second point I agree. I know of cases where universities lower standards for some races to up their percentages...as long as Joe Dark can pay the bill. In the end, no minority was helped.
 
2012-10-12 08:31:26 AM

Joe Blowme: what_now: Basing affirmative action on race is a practice that, in my opinion, should be ended.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.

So even if you scored a 20 on ACT and i scored 32, you should get in first because you are poor?


Should the ability to do well on a standardized test be the only criteria for entry?
 
2012-10-12 08:33:35 AM

Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.


Your statement makes a certain amount of sense. When I was very young I opposed affirmative action. One of the smartest people at my high school was a black female. I thought, obviously, anyone would trip over themselves to accept her to their college or hire her. I thought affirmative action was insulting to people like her. Then I began to work at actual jobs versus, for instance, babysitting.

By the time I was 23 years old, I had done a 180. I had worked at places where I was not allowed to even provide an application to black people. I was required to say the business was out of applications. Resumes received from black people were not even kept on file. They were tossed directly into the trash. Funny thing about jobs like that, they manage to make the "acceptable" people allowed to work in such a place perfectly miserable. An owner/manager that dedicated to acting unjustly and inequitably certainly isn't going to treat the people s/he does hire fairly or respectfully.

I concede that other, non-race based, discrimination happens. After picking up a little experience and learning to stand my ground a bit, I worked in a retail store where I refused to have anything at all to do with applications. Personnel accepting applications had been directed to code the application indicating the race of the applicant and whether the applicant was fat. The store set a limited number of positions that could be held by non-white people and would not exceed that number. If you were fat, however, you weren't getting hired, period.

When you are young you imagine that people strive to be as intelligent, logical, and fair minded as possible. Then you live for a while and realize there are people who wallow in ignorance and darkness; that are deeply proud of their ignorance. That's when you realize some form of affirmative action is necessary though it may be an imperfect solution.

Sorry about going novel again. Lately, I've had thoughts and words bursting out of my ears and nostrils. It's really kind of gross.
 
2012-10-12 08:34:18 AM

TimonC346: Silly Jesus: Affirmative action actually harms minorities. They get in over their heads, so to speak, and have a lower rate of graduation from more prestigious schools that they otherwise would not have qualified for.

Source: NPR

I'm sure that's probably true--the problem is the alternative--which is zero representation of anyone but European or Asian descent at any high end American schools. Which then throws in our face AND highlights institutionalized racism all at the same time.

Considering where these kids are starting from, Affirmative Action is sort of like a necessary evil. It is inherently unfair to make up for the societal unfairness of simply being born a different color. I'm not sure if that bodes well for it being constitutional, but I certainly support it.


Those would be good points if all white people were well off and all minorities were poor.

If you want to address inequalities in the real world there should be preference for poor and people from shiatty schools.
 
2012-10-12 08:35:24 AM
Incidentally, UT says race wasn't a factor in the girl not getting accepted. Maybe they just didn't want someone who blames her failures on other people.
 
2012-10-12 08:35:44 AM
taurusowner
Or....we could just judge people not be the color of their skin but by the content of their charter, or in this case, mind
.

Only a redneck, tea bagging fundamentalist would suggest that we rely on the "content of their character ..."
 
2012-10-12 08:35:56 AM
While we have the hood up, can we get rid of athletic scholarships? Admitting someone to a college because they can dribble well is dumb.
 
2012-10-12 08:36:56 AM

Brontes: what_now: Basing affirmative action on race is a practice that, in my opinion, should be ended.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.

SillyJesus posted a great piece by NPR that talked about statistics where some minority students just aren't ready. Colleges, if using race based admissions, should help them get ready and allow for an extra year to get the kids up to speed. If Colleges are willing to undertake a project to better a student based on race, go the full mile.


This.

There are schools that are teaching from decades old textbooks. There are schools with overcrowded classrooms. There are schools with inadequate resources. We can't allocate an admission advantage and then not alter the expecations upon admissions.
 
2012-10-12 08:37:31 AM
What an utter waste of time this case is. Regardless of its merits, Elena Justice Kagan, has recused herself because she did some work on it when she was Solicitor General. So there's a 4-4 court, which will come down along predictable lines. When the Court's vote is tied, the law in question must remain unchanged.

Based on what I have read, this young lady would not have been admitted regardless of any consideration of race. Her HS academic performance and SAT scores simply were not high enough and her composite score in UT's formula just a tad too low for her to be admitted. Close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades.
 
2012-10-12 08:38:56 AM
This thread smells like butthurt.
 
2012-10-12 08:39:06 AM

Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.


This.

Let's not preted what affluent kids have more bootstrappy gentic material. They were given advantages that the poor children were not. Affirmative Action should be geared at redistributing advantage.
 
2012-10-12 08:39:42 AM

Tyrone Slothrop: Joe Blowme: what_now: Basing affirmative action on race is a practice that, in my opinion, should be ended.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.

So even if you scored a 20 on ACT and i scored 32, you should get in first because you are poor?

Should the ability to do well on a standardized test be the only criteria for entry?


ACT and SAT, how do they work? So everyone gets in. Then what?
 
2012-10-12 08:40:18 AM

Brontes: what_now: Basing affirmative action on race is a practice that, in my opinion, should be ended.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.

SillyJesus posted a great piece by NPR that talked about statistics where some minority students just aren't ready. Colleges, if using race based admissions, should help them get ready and allow for an extra year to get the kids up to speed. If Colleges are willing to undertake a project to better a student based on race, go the full mile.


This is why I started at a community college. My high school / middle school wasn't great and I was so undereducated math wise I had to start math from the beginning all over again. I still hate math.
 
2012-10-12 08:40:50 AM

Joe Blowme: what_now: Basing affirmative action on race is a practice that, in my opinion, should be ended.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.

So even if you scored a 20 on ACT and i scored 32, you should get in first because you are poor?


Obviously there have to be standards. But admissions is not simply test scores, it's a whole metric of things- especially at the better schools. If a kid who grew up in a affluent suburb with parents who are college educated professionals has the same grades, skill set and test scores as a kid who grew up in poverty, went to a shiatty public high school and has no history of higher education I his family, then the second kid has clearly worked harder.
 
2012-10-12 08:40:59 AM

Joe Blowme: what_now: Basing affirmative action on race is a practice that, in my opinion, should be ended.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.

So even if you scored a 20 on ACT and i scored 32, you should get in first because you are poor?


If you think this is the way Affirmative Action works then you should probably educate yourself before forming an opinion.
 
2012-10-12 08:41:27 AM

Tyrone Slothrop: Incidentally, UT says race wasn't a factor in the girl not getting accepted. Maybe they just didn't want someone who blames her failures on other people.


The only factor that came into play was how incredibly handsome this girl is.
 
2012-10-12 08:41:49 AM

TimonC346: Silly Jesus: Affirmative action actually harms minorities. They get in over their heads, so to speak, and have a lower rate of graduation from more prestigious schools that they otherwise would not have qualified for.

Source: NPR

I'm sure that's probably true--the problem is the alternative--which is zero representation of anyone but European or Asian descent at any high end American schools. Which then throws in our face AND highlights institutionalized racism all at the same time.

Considering where these kids are starting from, Affirmative Action is sort of like a necessary evil. It is inherently unfair to make up for the societal unfairness of simply being born a different color. I'm not sure if that bodes well for it being constitutional, but I certainly support it.


^^^^^^^^^^

Wow! Just come out and say what you really think, people of certain races are genetically inferior. That is what you are saying, I simply summed up your thought using fewer words.
 
2012-10-12 08:43:40 AM

TimonC346: Silly Jesus: Affirmative action actually harms minorities. They get in over their heads, so to speak, and have a lower rate of graduation from more prestigious schools that they otherwise would not have qualified for.

Source: NPR

I'm sure that's probably true--the problem is the alternative--which is zero representation of anyone but European or Asian descent at any high end American schools. Which then throws in our face AND highlights institutionalized racism all at the same time.

Considering where these kids are starting from, Affirmative Action is sort of like a necessary evil. It is inherently unfair to make up for the societal unfairness of simply being born a different color. I'm not sure if that bodes well for it being constitutional, but I certainly support it.


Asian people cannot be racist because they are not institutionalized. Traditionally racism is something that has been exlusively the domain of the white male power structure. To undo centuries of oppression, slavery and rape affirmitive action is needed to place white males below women and people of color. Centuries of oppression are not reversed in a few years, thus affirmitive action is needed until whites in power represent their true numbers on this black planet (a tiny minority).

Asians only achieve status due to the "model minority" stigma. The whites say jump and they say "how high" look good little worker bees in this hyper capitalist dystopia. I don't feel the need to apologize that blacks and browns have taken an alternate path and decide to take what is owed to us.
 
2012-10-12 08:43:55 AM
Lets put it this way. Who is more likely to have better grades: Honey Boo Boo or Sasha Obama?
 
2012-10-12 08:45:09 AM

what_now: a kid who grew up in poverty, went to a shiatty public high school and has no history of higher education I his family


That's what community colleges are for.
 
2012-10-12 08:46:26 AM

david_gaithersburg: TimonC346: Silly Jesus: Affirmative action actually harms minorities. They get in over their heads, so to speak, and have a lower rate of graduation from more prestigious schools that they otherwise would not have qualified for.

Source: NPR

I'm sure that's probably true--the problem is the alternative--which is zero representation of anyone but European or Asian descent at any high end American schools. Which then throws in our face AND highlights institutionalized racism all at the same time.

Considering where these kids are starting from, Affirmative Action is sort of like a necessary evil. It is inherently unfair to make up for the societal unfairness of simply being born a different color. I'm not sure if that bodes well for it being constitutional, but I certainly support it.

^^^^^^^^^^

Wow! Just come out and say what you really think, people of certain races are genetically inferior. That is what you are saying, I simply summed up your thought using fewer words.


You simply said what you always say in these threads. "I'm a poor, oppressed peckerwood and all the minorities are taking away my opportunities and I have a small penis :("
 
2012-10-12 08:47:39 AM

Lunaville: Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.

Your statement makes a certain amount of sense. When I was very young I opposed affirmative action. One of the smartest people at my high school was a black female. I thought, obviously, anyone would trip over themselves to accept her to their college or hire her. I thought affirmative action was insulting to people like her. Then I began to work at actual jobs versus, for instance, babysitting.

By the time I was 23 years old, I had done a 180. I had worked at places where I was not allowed to even provide an application to black people. I was required to say the business was out of applications. Resumes received from black people were not even kept on file. They were tossed directly into the trash. Funny thing about jobs like that, they manage to make the "acceptable" people allowed to work in such a place perfectly miserable. An owner/manager that dedicated to acting unjustly and inequitably certainly isn't going to treat the people s/he does hire fairly or respectfully.

I concede that other, non-race based, discrimination happens. After picking up a little experience and learning to stand my ground a bit, I worked in a retail store where I refused to have anything at all to do with applications. Personnel accepting applications had been directed to code the application indicating the race of the applicant and whether the applicant was fat. The store set a limited number of positions that could be held by non-white people and would not exceed that number. If you were fat, however, you weren't getting hired, period.

When you are young you imagine that people strive to be as intelligent, logical, and fair minded as possible. Then you live for a while and realize there are people who wallow in ignorance and darkness; that are deeply proud of their ignorance. That's when you realize some form of affirmative action is necessary though it may be an imperfect solution.

Sorry about going novel again. Lately, I've had thoughts and words bursting out of my ears and nostrils. It's really kind of gross.


This was a terrific post. Freakanomics basically tested your personal experience and agrees. In their test - they created a resume and sent it out with two names: a white sounding name and a black sounding name.

The person with the white sounding names received a LOT more calls despite the resume containing the exact same skills and experience.
 
2012-10-12 08:47:44 AM

ChuDogg: TimonC346: Silly Jesus: Affirmative action actually harms minorities. They get in over their heads, so to speak, and have a lower rate of graduation from more prestigious schools that they otherwise would not have qualified for.

Source: NPR

I'm sure that's probably true--the problem is the alternative--which is zero representation of anyone but European or Asian descent at any high end American schools. Which then throws in our face AND highlights institutionalized racism all at the same time.

Considering where these kids are starting from, Affirmative Action is sort of like a necessary evil. It is inherently unfair to make up for the societal unfairness of simply being born a different color. I'm not sure if that bodes well for it being constitutional, but I certainly support it.

Asian people cannot be racist because they are not institutionalized. Traditionally racism is something that has been exlusively the domain of the white male power structure. To undo centuries of oppression, slavery and rape affirmitive action is needed to place white males below women and people of color. Centuries of oppression are not reversed in a few years, thus affirmitive action is needed until whites in power represent their true numbers on this black planet (a tiny minority).

Asians only achieve status due to the "model minority" stigma. The whites say jump and they say "how high" look good little worker bees in this hyper capitalist dystopia. I don't feel the need to apologize that blacks and browns have taken an alternate path and decide to take what is owed to us.


,
.
You appear to be qualified to be president with such stone age views.
 
2012-10-12 08:48:51 AM

PallMall: Molavian: It makes me giggle that "minority" in a college setting has come to mean black or hispanic, and asians are not included.

That's because there aren't enough of them.


It's also because they come from a culture that values intelligence and education. Just sayin'.
 
2012-10-12 08:49:09 AM

404 page not found: david_gaithersburg: TimonC346: Silly Jesus: Affirmative action actually harms minorities. They get in over their heads, so to speak, and have a lower rate of graduation from more prestigious schools that they otherwise would not have qualified for.

Source: NPR

I'm sure that's probably true--the problem is the alternative--which is zero representation of anyone but European or Asian descent at any high end American schools. Which then throws in our face AND highlights institutionalized racism all at the same time.

Considering where these kids are starting from, Affirmative Action is sort of like a necessary evil. It is inherently unfair to make up for the societal unfairness of simply being born a different color. I'm not sure if that bodes well for it being constitutional, but I certainly support it.

^^^^^^^^^^

Wow! Just come out and say what you really think, people of certain races are genetically inferior. That is what you are saying, I simply summed up your thought using fewer words.

You simply said what you always say in these threads. "I'm a poor, oppressed peckerwood and all the minorities are taking away my opportunities and I have a small penis :("


LOL, if that makes you feel better.
 
2012-10-12 08:49:14 AM
If we get rid of affirmative action, we better just accept that white people no longer get into MIT.
 
2012-10-12 08:49:49 AM
'MERICA!
where we're all equal

..until someone decides that a racial group is inferior and needs their help to be like everyone else.

so awesome
 
2012-10-12 08:50:08 AM

PallMall: Race, ethnicity, color, religion, etc should have NOTHING to do with getting in to college. Affirmative action hurts otherwise qualified candidates from getting there.


Completely agree. And it's horribly condescending when it's suggested that somehow we're hurt by it. I don't feel like my graduate education was negatively impacted by not having racial minorities in the problem. It was, however, dramatically enhanced by having some incredibly bright people around me from diverse educational backgrounds. Replacing one of them with a token black guy would have been detrimental.
 
2012-10-12 08:51:31 AM
"Wow! Just come out and say what you really think, people of certain races are genetically culturally inferior. That is what you are saying, I simply summed up your thought using fewer words." 

Fixed
 
2012-10-12 08:52:27 AM

ChuDogg: Asians only achieve status due to the "model minority" stigma. The whites say jump and they say "how high" look good little worker bees in this hyper capitalist dystopia. I don't feel the need to apologize that blacks and browns have taken an alternate path and decide to take what is owed to us.


What the fark? Seriously, that's the most racist thing I've seen on Fark up to this point. And I read the politics tab.
 
2012-10-12 08:54:37 AM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: ChuDogg: Asians only achieve status due to the "model minority" stigma. The whites say jump and they say "how high" look good little worker bees in this hyper capitalist dystopia. I don't feel the need to apologize that blacks and browns have taken an alternate path and decide to take what is owed to us.

What the fark? Seriously, that's the most racist thing I've seen on Fark up to this point. And I read the politics tab.


Affirmative action threads have a way of thinking we need to be perfectly fair in our genocide of the entire human race.
 
2012-10-12 08:54:47 AM

Dr.Mxyzptlk.: taurusowner
Or....we could just judge people not be the color of their skin but by the content of their charter, or in this case, mind.

Only a redneck, tea bagging fundamentalist would suggest that we rely on the "content of their character ..."


www.westernjournalism.com
 
2012-10-12 08:54:54 AM
This is one of those areas where the federal government has to step in to do some leveling of the playing field. If not, we'll end up with too many college classrooms with zero black or hispanic faces and zero input from those people into the "elite" graduating from those schools.
If all we have are white people in the classrooms, we're mostly going to have white leaders. And if those white leaders have only seen minorities on TV or as part of their drug habit, then minorities are never going to get a fair shake.
The up and coming 50% minority population in this country has not enjoyed the same access to college as the former white majority, and we're going to have major problems as a society if we cannot produce enough integrated leaders.
 
2012-10-12 08:55:41 AM

Zeb Hesselgresser: "Wow! Just come out and say what you really think, people of certain races are genetically culturally inferior. That is what you are saying, I simply summed up your thought using fewer words." 

Fixed


He said color, I'm pretty sure color isn't a cultural thing. I could be wrong.
 
2012-10-12 08:56:23 AM

thurstonxhowell: thinking


*making me think

The "Add Comment" button is my greatest nemesis. It tempts me with its immediacy, but shames me with my inability to write things correctly the first time.

...and now, I click the "Add Comment" button. May God have mercy on my post.
 
2012-10-12 08:56:48 AM

what_now: Joe Blowme: what_now: Basing affirmative action on race is a practice that, in my opinion, should be ended.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.

So even if you scored a 20 on ACT and i scored 32, you should get in first because you are poor?

Obviously there have to be standards. But admissions is not simply test scores, it's a whole metric of things- especially at the better schools. If a kid who grew up in a affluent suburb with parents who are college educated professionals has the same grades, skill set and test scores as a kid who grew up in poverty, went to a shiatty public high school and has no history of higher education I his family, then the second kid has clearly worked harder.


I can see doing that.
 
2012-10-12 08:57:11 AM

Smoky Dragon Dish: Dr.Mxyzptlk.: taurusowner
Or....we could just judge people not be the color of their skin but by the content of their charter, or in this case, mind.

Only a redneck, tea bagging fundamentalist would suggest that we rely on the "content of their character ..."

[www.westernjournalism.com image 300x380]


Well, he was a Republican, and he embraced all of the values of The Tea Party.
 
2012-10-12 08:57:31 AM
When you consider that birth rates plummet with increases in women's education, you'd think the racists would be screaming to get minority women in college.
 
2012-10-12 08:59:30 AM

Kaymon: When you consider that birth rates plummet with increases in women's education, you'd think the racists would be screaming to get minority women in college.


Read the above posts, they are.
 
2012-10-12 09:00:42 AM

Bontesla: Lunaville: Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.

Your statement makes a certain amount of sense. When I was very young I opposed affirmative action. One of the smartest people at my high school was a black female. I thought, obviously, anyone would trip over themselves to accept her to their college or hire her. I thought affirmative action was insulting to people like her. Then I began to work at actual jobs versus, for instance, babysitting.

By the time I was 23 years old, I had done a 180. I had worked at places where I was not allowed to even provide an application to black people. I was required to say the business was out of applications. Resumes received from black people were not even kept on file. They were tossed directly into the trash. Funny thing about jobs like that, they manage to make the "acceptable" people allowed to work in such a place perfectly miserable. An owner/manager that dedicated to acting unjustly and inequitably certainly isn't going to treat the people s/he does hire fairly or respectfully.

I concede that other, non-race based, discrimination happens. After picking up a little experience and learning to stand my ground a bit, I worked in a retail store where I refused to have anything at all to do with applications. Personnel accepting applications had been directed to code the application indicating the race of the applicant and whether the applicant was fat. The store set a limited number of positions that could be held by non-white people and would not exceed that number. If you were fat, however, you weren't getting hired, period.

When you are young you imagine that people strive to be as intelligent, logical, ...


Honestly, would you not feel any differently calling in for customer service and someone answering "Hi, this is Sha-nay-nay." vs "Hi, this is Michelle?"

Sha-nay-nay just sounds less professional than Michelle. I don't think that that is necessarily a race thing, it's just a ridiculous phonetic name vs. a traditional name thing.
 
2012-10-12 09:01:18 AM

taurusowner: Or....we could just judge people not be the color of their skin but by the content of their charter, or in this case, mind.


This is the ideal, but is certainly unrealstic. It is naive in the extreme to think that removing affirmative action would result in a leveling of the playing field or objective standards.
 
2012-10-12 09:01:22 AM

Big Dave: This is one of those areas where the federal government has to step in to do some leveling of the playing field. If not, we'll end up with too many college classrooms with zero black or hispanic faces and zero input from those people into the "elite" graduating from those schools.
If all we have are white people in the classrooms, we're mostly going to have white leaders. And if those white leaders have only seen minorities on TV or as part of their drug habit, then minorities are never going to get a fair shake.
The up and coming 50% minority population in this country has not enjoyed the same access to college as the former white majority, and we're going to have major problems as a society if we cannot produce enough integrated leaders.


Leaders are BORN, not CREATED. Trying to manufacture a leader will only result in a half-ass loser. Most folks are born to be sheep. Some are born to be shepherds. This is the law of nature.
 
2012-10-12 09:02:12 AM
time to dust this one off
imageshack.us
 
2012-10-12 09:03:34 AM

Bontesla: The person with the white sounding names received a LOT more calls despite the resume containing the exact same skills and experience.


I concur with this.

I am white. My birth name is "multi-cultural." Until someone sees me in person, they assume I'm either a filthy wetback, a sub-human negro or a sand dwelling muslin' terrorist.
 
2012-10-12 09:03:37 AM

Bontesla: Joe Blowme: what_now: Basing affirmative action on race is a practice that, in my opinion, should be ended.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.

So even if you scored a 20 on ACT and i scored 32, you should get in first because you are poor?

If you think this is the way Affirmative Action works then you should probably educate yourself before forming an opinion.


says the person who cant quite comprehend the post they comment on.
 
2012-10-12 09:05:06 AM
First generation Irish here, I must be punished for the sins of your ancestors.
 
2012-10-12 09:05:26 AM
Asians aren't discriminated against? Chinese exclusion act, Japanese internment, the use of diversity quotas to ban all but the upper echelon of Asians from any position?

Lunaville: Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.

Your statement makes a certain amount of sense. When I was very young I opposed affirmative action. One of the smartest people at my high school was a black female. I thought, obviously, anyone would trip over themselves to accept her to their college or hire her. I thought affirmative action was insulting to people like her. Then I began to work at actual jobs versus, for instance, babysitting.

By the time I was 23 years old, I had done a 180. I had worked at places where I was not allowed to even provide an application to black people. I was required to say the business was out of applications. Resumes received from black people were not even kept on file. They were tossed directly into the trash. Funny thing about jobs like that, they manage to make the "acceptable" people allowed to work in such a place perfectly miserable. An owner/manager that dedicated to acting unjustly and inequitably certainly isn't going to treat the people s/he does hire fairly or respectfully.

I concede that other, non-race based, discrimination happens. After picking up a little experience and learning to stand my ground a bit, I worked in a retail store where I refused to have anything at all to do with applications. Personnel accepting applications had been directed to code the application indicating the race of the applicant and whether the applicant was fat. The store set a limited number of positions that could be held by non-white people and would not exceed that number. If you were fat, however, you weren't getting hired, period.

When you are young you imagine that people strive to be as intelligent, logical, and fair m ...


I was on the hiring council at a major technology company, looking for qualified software people.

we made damn sure we were hiring a diverse staff, and we farking scoured the applicant pool to make sure our bases were all covered... blacks, women, native American, people with disabilities, etc.

I don't doubt there is some idiosyncratic racism out there, but it doesn't happen in the big firms because we don't need to waste legal teams on retarded bull shiat.
 
2012-10-12 09:06:21 AM

Silly Jesus: Sha-nay-nay just sounds less professional than Michelle. I don't think that that is necessarily a race thing, it's just a ridiculous phonetic name vs. a traditional name thing.


yes, and traditional names change. Sure they could do the same thing foreign call centers do and use fake names, but why should you be judged by what your parents named you?

//does not apply for the name shiathead (pronounced Sha-theed) and yes, I've heard of at least one case of this from two sources talking about the same person
 
2012-10-12 09:07:01 AM
I would be curious to know how many of the people speaking against affirmative action are memebers of a traditionally repressed minority class.

Sure, Affirmative action is, by it's very nature, racist. But if you take away the racism that helps minorities without addressing the institutional and cultural racism that harms them, you are not helping the problem.

The problem is a good deal more complex than that, but I don't think simplistic stances like 'we should only judge people by their actions' and 'we should remove raced based decisions', while appealing to idealists, are practical or fair social policy
 
2012-10-12 09:07:22 AM

zedster: time to dust this one off
[imageshack.us image 450x355]


colorlines.com
 
2012-10-12 09:07:41 AM

legion_of_doo: we made damn sure we were hiring a diverse staff, and we farking scoured the applicant pool to make sure our bases were all covered... blacks, women, native American, people with disabilities, etc.


Is this a video on your hiring practices?
 
2012-10-12 09:08:09 AM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: PallMall: Race, ethnicity, color, religion, etc should have NOTHING to do with getting in to college. Affirmative action hurts otherwise qualified candidates from getting there.

Completely agree. And it's horribly condescending when it's suggested that somehow we're hurt by it. I don't feel like my graduate education was negatively impacted by not having racial minorities in the problem. It was, however, dramatically enhanced by having some incredibly bright people around me from diverse educational backgrounds. Replacing one of them with a token black guy would have been detrimental.


Ha. If you think the white students were there only because of merit then you're part of the problem. White students, specifically affluent white students, are given the advantage since birth.

Take tracking as a great example. Schools that participate in tracking actually invest in the students they decide have the best opportunities for future achievement. Academics play a role - but so does parental involvement, parental education levels, student neatness, appearance, and so on.

Once selected as someone the school will track for success - the teachers are encouraged to befriend the families, tutor the children (or find tutuors), and separate that student from the herd.

And if you don't think your school tracks students then you weren't a chosen one. Most schools track.

There are many other examples of the types of advantages bestowed upon white students - specifically affluent white students. The race of a teacher plays a HUGE role in how that teacher will teach students of different races. In several studies - white teachers were shown to call on white students to answer questions more often. White teachers were more often willing to make exceptions for white students. Black teachers were harder on struggling black students than they were on white students.

A single bad teacher can set a student behind an entire academic year whereas a single good teacher can cover more than an academic year's worth of material. So, a student can drop from B to C or D based on a teacher's performance. A single bad year can propel each subsequent year into being bad if the student isn't given an opportunity to catch up.
 
2012-10-12 09:09:31 AM

david_gaithersburg: TimonC346: Silly Jesus: Affirmative action actually harms minorities. They get in over their heads, so to speak, and have a lower rate of graduation from more prestigious schools that they otherwise would not have qualified for.

Source: NPR

I'm sure that's probably true--the problem is the alternative--which is zero representation of anyone but European or Asian descent at any high end American schools. Which then throws in our face AND highlights institutionalized racism all at the same time.

Considering where these kids are starting from, Affirmative Action is sort of like a necessary evil. It is inherently unfair to make up for the societal unfairness of simply being born a different color. I'm not sure if that bodes well for it being constitutional, but I certainly support it.

^^^^^^^^^^

Wow! Just come out and say what you really think, people of certain races are genetically inferior. That is what you are saying, I simply summed up your thought using fewer words.


I don't see how one gets from "Affirmative action makes up for the societal unfairness of being born a different color" to "You are saying that people of certain races are genetically inferior." Unless you're equating "socially disadvantaged due to skin color" with "genetically inferior," in which case, I guess I could see that interpretation (if you consider "society" to be "environment" in a Darwinian sense), but that's not how people generally think of such things. Not when the "environment" is "stupid thinking" instead of, say, heat or a hurricane.
 
2012-10-12 09:10:05 AM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: PallMall: Race, ethnicity, color, religion, etc should have NOTHING to do with getting in to college. Affirmative action hurts otherwise qualified candidates from getting there.

Completely agree. And it's horribly condescending when it's suggested that somehow we're hurt by it. I don't feel like my graduate education was negatively impacted by not having racial minorities in the problem. It was, however, dramatically enhanced by having some incredibly bright people around me from diverse educational backgrounds. Replacing one of them with a token black guy would have been detrimental.


Yes, from a purely self centered point of view, you are correct.
 
2012-10-12 09:10:08 AM

david_gaithersburg: First generation Irish here, I must be punished for the sins of your ancestors.


There you go again.
 
2012-10-12 09:10:11 AM

Smoky Dragon Dish: Dr.Mxyzptlk.: taurusowner
Or....we could just judge people not be the color of their skin but by the content of their charter, or in this case, mind.

Only a redneck, tea bagging fundamentalist would suggest that we rely on the "content of their character ..."

[www.westernjournalism.com image 300x380]


+3
 
2012-10-12 09:10:24 AM

MycroftHolmes: I would be curious to know how many of the people speaking against affirmative action are memebers of a traditionally repressed minority class.

Sure, Affirmative action is, by it's very nature, racist. But if you take away the racism that helps minorities without addressing the institutional and cultural racism that harms them, you are not helping the problem.

The problem is a good deal more complex than that, but I don't think simplistic stances like 'we should only judge people by their actions' and 'we should remove raced based decisions', while appealing to idealists, are practical or fair social policy


.
So what you are saying is that you feel guilty about your family's past and others should suffer for your guilt.

//Two wrongs don't make a right, or something like that.
 
2012-10-12 09:10:40 AM

Silly Jesus: Bontesla: Lunaville: Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.

Your statement makes a certain amount of sense. When I was very young I opposed affirmative action. One of the smartest people at my high school was a black female. I thought, obviously, anyone would trip over themselves to accept her to their college or hire her. I thought affirmative action was insulting to people like her. Then I began to work at actual jobs versus, for instance, babysitting.

By the time I was 23 years old, I had done a 180. I had worked at places where I was not allowed to even provide an application to black people. I was required to say the business was out of applications. Resumes received from black people were not even kept on file. They were tossed directly into the trash. Funny thing about jobs like that, they manage to make the "acceptable" people allowed to work in such a place perfectly miserable. An owner/manager that dedicated to acting unjustly and inequitably certainly isn't going to treat the people s/he does hire fairly or respectfully.

I concede that other, non-race based, discrimination happens. After picking up a little experience and learning to stand my ground a bit, I worked in a retail store where I refused to have anything at all to do with applications. Personnel accepting applications had been directed to code the application indicating the race of the applicant and whether the applicant was fat. The store set a limited number of positions that could be held by non-white people and would not exceed that number. If you were fat, however, you weren't getting hired, period.

When you are young you imagine that people strive to be as intelligent, logical, ...

Honestly, would you not feel any differently calling in for customer service and someone answering "Hi, this is Sha-nay-nay." vs "Hi, this is Michelle?"

Sha-nay-nay just sounds less professional than Michelle. I don't think that that is necessarily a race thing, it's just a ridiculous phonetic name vs. a traditional name thing.


Traditional American = white.
It is very much a race thing.
 
2012-10-12 09:11:36 AM

zedster: Silly Jesus: Sha-nay-nay just sounds less professional than Michelle. I don't think that that is necessarily a race thing, it's just a ridiculous phonetic name vs. a traditional name thing.

yes, and traditional names change. Sure they could do the same thing foreign call centers do and use fake names, but why should you be judged by what your parents named you?

//does not apply for the name shiathead (pronounced Sha-theed) and yes, I've heard of at least one case of this from two sources talking about the same person


Genetics? If you parents genes resulted in them thinking that it was a good idea to name you Lemonjello then you inherited those genes and that is a consideration in your future work performance.

Frank Zappa was crazy...he named his kids crazy names, my favorite being Moon Unit. If Moon Unit asked me for a job I would rightfully assume that her parents were mentally unstable and that she just might be as well.

Ridiculous names carry weight, like it or not.
 
2012-10-12 09:12:22 AM

david_gaithersburg: Zeb Hesselgresser: "Wow! Just come out and say what you really think, people of certain races are genetically culturally inferior. That is what you are saying, I simply summed up your thought using fewer words." 

Fixed

He said color, I'm pretty sure color isn't a cultural thing. I could be wrong.


Ah, gotcha.

Perception of people based on skin color is a cultural thing. But people with the "wrong" skin color aren't geneteically inferior in that sense, because perception can be altered.
 
2012-10-12 09:14:08 AM

Bontesla: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: PallMall: Race, ethnicity, color, religion, etc should have NOTHING to do with getting in to college. Affirmative action hurts otherwise qualified candidates from getting there.

Completely agree. And it's horribly condescending when it's suggested that somehow we're hurt by it. I don't feel like my graduate education was negatively impacted by not having racial minorities in the problem. It was, however, dramatically enhanced by having some incredibly bright people around me from diverse educational backgrounds. Replacing one of them with a token black guy would have been detrimental.

Ha. If you think the white students were there only because of merit then you're part of the problem. White students, specifically affluent white students, are given the advantage since birth.

Take tracking as a great example. Schools that participate in tracking actually invest in the students they decide have the best opportunities for future achievement. Academics play a role - but so does parental involvement, parental education levels, student neatness, appearance, and so on.

Once selected as someone the school will track for success - the teachers are encouraged to befriend the families, tutor the children (or find tutuors), and separate that student from the herd.

And if you don't think your school tracks students then you weren't a chosen one. Most schools track.

There are many other examples of the types of advantages bestowed upon white students - specifically affluent white students. The race of a teacher plays a HUGE role in how that teacher will teach students of different races. In several studies - white teachers were shown to call on white students to answer questions more often. White teachers were more often willing to make exceptions for white students. Black teachers were harder on struggling black students than they were on white students.

A single bad teacher can set a student behind an entire academic year whereas a single good tea ...


So, essentially, if you're not smart enough to get into a good school, it's the fault of society, teachers, parents etc.
 
2012-10-12 09:14:59 AM

david_gaithersburg: MycroftHolmes: I would be curious to know how many of the people speaking against affirmative action are memebers of a traditionally repressed minority class.

Sure, Affirmative action is, by it's very nature, racist. But if you take away the racism that helps minorities without addressing the institutional and cultural racism that harms them, you are not helping the problem.

The problem is a good deal more complex than that, but I don't think simplistic stances like 'we should only judge people by their actions' and 'we should remove raced based decisions', while appealing to idealists, are practical or fair social policy

.
So what you are saying is that you feel guilty about your family's past and others should suffer for your guilt.

//Two wrongs don't make a right, or something like that.


No, i am not saying anything of the sort, nor am I part of the majority class (I am Asian, so somewhat neutral in this debate). My point is that today's society is not integrated, it is not a level playing field, institutional racism does exist. if he goal is to, over time, erode racial distinctions as being synonymous with educational and class distinctions, a policy of 'let's just ignore the last 100 years of history and the position that the majority has placed the minorities in and pretend everything is merit based' is naive in the extreme and misguided.
 
2012-10-12 09:15:28 AM

Quick Fixer: david_gaithersburg: TimonC346: Silly Jesus: Affirmative action actually harms minorities. They get in over their heads, so to speak, and have a lower rate of graduation from more prestigious schools that they otherwise would not have qualified for.

Source: NPR

I'm sure that's probably true--the problem is the alternative--which is zero representation of anyone but European or Asian descent at any high end American schools. Which then throws in our face AND highlights institutionalized racism all at the same time.

Considering where these kids are starting from, Affirmative Action is sort of like a necessary evil. It is inherently unfair to make up for the societal unfairness of simply being born a different color. I'm not sure if that bodes well for it being constitutional, but I certainly support it.

^^^^^^^^^^

Wow! Just come out and say what you really think, people of certain races are genetically inferior. That is what you are saying, I simply summed up your thought using fewer words.

I don't see how one gets from "Affirmative action makes up for the societal unfairness of being born a different color" to "You are saying that people of certain races are genetically inferior." Unless you're equating "socially disadvantaged due to skin color" with "genetically inferior," in which case, I guess I could see that interpretation (if you consider "society" to be "environment" in a Darwinian sense), but that's not how people generally think of such things. Not when the "environment" is "stupid thinking" instead of, say, heat or a hurricane.


..
.
Where is"societal unfairness" mentioned. I'm only reading that people of certain races are not capable of competing. That's an interesting plantation you people are tending.
 
2012-10-12 09:15:54 AM

Bontesla: Silly Jesus: Bontesla: Lunaville: Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.

Your statement makes a certain amount of sense. When I was very young I opposed affirmative action. One of the smartest people at my high school was a black female. I thought, obviously, anyone would trip over themselves to accept her to their college or hire her. I thought affirmative action was insulting to people like her. Then I began to work at actual jobs versus, for instance, babysitting.

By the time I was 23 years old, I had done a 180. I had worked at places where I was not allowed to even provide an application to black people. I was required to say the business was out of applications. Resumes received from black people were not even kept on file. They were tossed directly into the trash. Funny thing about jobs like that, they manage to make the "acceptable" people allowed to work in such a place perfectly miserable. An owner/manager that dedicated to acting unjustly and inequitably certainly isn't going to treat the people s/he does hire fairly or respectfully.

I concede that other, non-race based, discrimination happens. After picking up a little experience and learning to stand my ground a bit, I worked in a retail store where I refused to have anything at all to do with applications. Personnel accepting applications had been directed to code the application indicating the race of the applicant and whether the applicant was fat. The store set a limited number of positions that could be held by non-white people and would not exceed that number. If you were fat, however, you weren't getting hired, period.

When you are young you imagine that people strive to be a ...


Michelle Obama isn't white.
 
2012-10-12 09:19:16 AM
Studies have shown that minorities who got through college on affirmative action do just as well in their careers as other graduates from the same schools. That points out the fact that America is all about opportunity. I'd be willing to get rid of affirmative action if we could also get rid of nepotism and cronyism, which are exponentially more of a problem. In fact, affirmative action was created a slight remedy to nepotism and cronyism. If you're a mediocre white kid who didn't get admitted to the college of your choice, you can fight for real justice, or you can be practical and network better. You have that opportunity.

/ I got suckered in by Shelby Steele's 'Content of Their Character' when it came out. Until I realized that it assumes a level playing field. The level playing field is a given in conservative logic.
 
2012-10-12 09:20:08 AM

Silly Jesus: zedster: Silly Jesus: Sha-nay-nay just sounds less professional than Michelle. I don't think that that is necessarily a race thing, it's just a ridiculous phonetic name vs. a traditional name thing.

yes, and traditional names change. Sure they could do the same thing foreign call centers do and use fake names, but why should you be judged by what your parents named you?

//does not apply for the name shiathead (pronounced Sha-theed) and yes, I've heard of at least one case of this from two sources talking about the same person

Genetics? If you parents genes resulted in them thinking that it was a good idea to name you Lemonjello then you inherited those genes and that is a consideration in your future work performance.

Frank Zappa was crazy...he named his kids crazy names, my favorite being Moon Unit. If Moon Unit asked me for a job I would rightfully assume that her parents were mentally unstable and that she just might be as well.

Ridiculous names carry weight, like it or not.


But we don't need to imagine such extreme differences. The name Greg carries a different weight than Jamal or Donte. Williard than Freeman. Milton than Marcus.

My name is Jessica. I had it made socially. They studied the name Jessica and compared it to Bernadette. Similar essay responses and Jessica scored worse than Bernadette at an alarming rate. Teachers gave the academic benefit to a "smart" name and not the "popular" name.

/I did "ok" in K-12 because I was lazy. I made it into an elite college but obviously not based on academic success.
 
2012-10-12 09:20:44 AM

Dr.Mxyzptlk.: taurusowner
Or....we could just judge people not be the color of their skin but by the content of their charter, or in this case, mind.

Only a redneck, tea bagging fundamentalist would suggest that we rely on the "content of their character ..."


Only a Sith deals in absolutes
 
2012-10-12 09:20:46 AM

MycroftHolmes: david_gaithersburg: MycroftHolmes: I would be curious to know how many of the people speaking against affirmative action are memebers of a traditionally repressed minority class.

Sure, Affirmative action is, by it's very nature, racist. But if you take away the racism that helps minorities without addressing the institutional and cultural racism that harms them, you are not helping the problem.

The problem is a good deal more complex than that, but I don't think simplistic stances like 'we should only judge people by their actions' and 'we should remove raced based decisions', while appealing to idealists, are practical or fair social policy

.
So what you are saying is that you feel guilty about your family's past and others should suffer for your guilt.

//Two wrongs don't make a right, or something like that.

No, i am not saying anything of the sort, nor am I part of the majority class (I am Asian, so somewhat neutral in this debate). My point is that today's society is not integrated, it is not a level playing field, institutional racism does exist. if he goal is to, over time, erode racial distinctions as being synonymous with educational and class distinctions, a policy of 'let's just ignore the last 100 years of history and the position that the majority has placed the minorities in and pretend everything is merit based' is naive in the extreme and misguided.

.
.

So you believe then that your children should be denied access to scholarships because in the past per capita way to many have been awarded to people of Asian decent. That should teach your future generations to be all edumacated and what nots.
 
2012-10-12 09:22:25 AM

Silly Jesus: Bontesla: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: PallMall: Race, ethnicity, color, religion, etc should have NOTHING to do with getting in to college. Affirmative action hurts otherwise qualified candidates from getting there.

Completely agree. And it's horribly condescending when it's suggested that somehow we're hurt by it. I don't feel like my graduate education was negatively impacted by not having racial minorities in the problem. It was, however, dramatically enhanced by having some incredibly bright people around me from diverse educational backgrounds. Replacing one of them with a token black guy would have been detrimental.

Ha. If you think the white students were there only because of merit then you're part of the problem. White students, specifically affluent white students, are given the advantage since birth.

Take tracking as a great example. Schools that participate in tracking actually invest in the students they decide have the best opportunities for future achievement. Academics play a role - but so does parental involvement, parental education levels, student neatness, appearance, and so on.

Once selected as someone the school will track for success - the teachers are encouraged to befriend the families, tutor the children (or find tutuors), and separate that student from the herd.

And if you don't think your school tracks students then you weren't a chosen one. Most schools track.

There are many other examples of the types of advantages bestowed upon white students - specifically affluent white students. The race of a teacher plays a HUGE role in how that teacher will teach students of different races. In several studies - white teachers were shown to call on white students to answer questions more often. White teachers were more often willing to make exceptions for white students. Black teachers were harder on struggling black students than they were on white students.

A single bad teacher can set a student behind an entire academic year whereas a single good tea ...

So, essentially, if you're not smart enough to get into a good school, it's the fault of society, teachers, parents etc.


Is it the sole fault of teachers, parents, school, and so on? No. Do they play a role? Yes. Are students partly to blame? Yes.
 
2012-10-12 09:23:26 AM

Dear Jerk: Studies have shown that minorities who got through college on affirmative action do just as well in their careers as other graduates from the same schools. That points out the fact that America is all about opportunity. I'd be willing to get rid of affirmative action if we could also get rid of nepotism and cronyism, which are exponentially more of a problem. In fact, affirmative action was created a slight remedy to nepotism and cronyism. If you're a mediocre white kid who didn't get admitted to the college of your choice, you can fight for real justice, or you can be practical and network better. You have that opportunity.

/ I got suckered in by Shelby Steele's 'Content of Their Character' when it came out. Until I realized that it assumes a level playing field. The level playing field is a given in conservative logic.


This is spot on. The whole idea of judging people based on their merit should only be applied to affirmative action if it can be equally applied to all other candidates as well. And since so much is based on interviews and rapport, and people naturally form rapport with people who are similar to them, it iwill be almost impossible to ever have a system that is entirely merit based.

Affirmative action may be a clumsy tool that can result in some negative consequence, but the need for some corrective mechanism to counteract institutional bias is undeniable, if the goal is an integrated, classless society of equal opportunity.
 
2012-10-12 09:23:44 AM

legion_of_doo: Asians aren't discriminated against? Chinese exclusion act, Japanese internment, the use of diversity quotas to ban all but the upper echelon of Asians from any position?

Lunaville: Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.

Your statement makes a certain amount of sense. When I was very young I opposed affirmative action. One of the smartest people at my high school was a black female. I thought, obviously, anyone would trip over themselves to accept her to their college or hire her. I thought affirmative action was insulting to people like her. Then I began to work at actual jobs versus, for instance, babysitting.

By the time I was 23 years old, I had done a 180. I had worked at places where I was not allowed to even provide an application to black people. I was required to say the business was out of applications. Resumes received from black people were not even kept on file. They were tossed directly into the trash. Funny thing about jobs like that, they manage to make the "acceptable" people allowed to work in such a place perfectly miserable. An owner/manager that dedicated to acting unjustly and inequitably certainly isn't going to treat the people s/he does hire fairly or respectfully.

I concede that other, non-race based, discrimination happens. After picking up a little experience and learning to stand my ground a bit, I worked in a retail store where I refused to have anything at all to do with applications. Personnel accepting applications had been directed to code the application indicating the race of the applicant and whether the applicant was fat. The store set a limited number of positions that could be held by non-white people and ...


While you are busy asserting that racism no longer exists except as a rare anomaly, if you will take a moment to reread your own post, you will realize that you yourself seem to find little value in hiring minorities beyond avoiding legal inconvenience.
 
2012-10-12 09:24:49 AM
Affirmative action: More equal than equal.
 
2012-10-12 09:25:25 AM
I can't remember what show I was watching, but these two guys were making the case to scrap AA as it is and move towards a socio-economic model that favors PEOPLE that are broke-ass. Doesn't matter what colour they are, but if they are poor and want to get edgjumacated, off they go.

To quote the great Michael Scott - "I'm collar blind".
 
2012-10-12 09:27:06 AM

Bontesla: Ha. If you think the white students were there only because of merit then you're part of the problem. White students, specifically affluent white students, are given the advantage since birth.


So, do you genuinely think that affluent black students don't get the same or equivalent opportunities from birth?
That's why race is a shiatty determiner. Being poor is actually what causes most of the problems you're mentioning. (Except maybe the bit about how different teachers respond to different students).

If you gave preference based on parental income, I'd be a little less pissed than I am giving preference based on race. I've got my own slew of anecdotes about how parental income is irrelevant to some students.
 
2012-10-12 09:27:21 AM
david_gaithersburg: So you believe then that your children should be denied access to scholarships because in the past per capita way to many have been awarded to people of Asian decent. That should teach your future generations to be all edumacated and what nots.

It depends on what my goal and perspective is. From a purely self centered standpoint, of course not. I want my family to have all the opportunities in the world. if i step beyond my ego centric view point and look at what is sustainable for our culture as a whole, if I value creating an inclusive culture of equal opportunity, then ues, I would support some type of corrective mechanism.

Don't get me wrong, I think affirmative action is a clumsy tool. But I think issues of racer and class are very much more complex than the very naive statement that we should get rid of affirmative action, because it is racist, but let's not do anything about all the other institutional racism out there.
 
2012-10-12 09:27:39 AM

david_gaithersburg: Quick Fixer: david_gaithersburg: TimonC346:

I'm sure that's probably true--the problem is the alternative--which is zero representation of anyone but European or Asian descent at any high end American schools. Which then throws in our face AND highlights institutionalized racism all at the same time.

Considering where these kids are starting from, Affirmative Action is sort of like a necessary evil. It is inherently unfair to make up for the societal unfairness of simply being born a different color. I'm not sure if that bodes well for it being constitutional, but I certainly support it.

^^^^^^^^^^
..
.
Where is"societal unfairness" mentioned...


Right there.
 
2012-10-12 09:29:22 AM
If they really want to give people a leg up, don't base it on skin color, base it on economic status. Being poor makes it hard to succeed, regardless of your race. If a disadvantaged student can score as well as a privildged one, you know which one has the talent and the drive - and which one coasted.
 
2012-10-12 09:29:39 AM

Quick Fixer: david_gaithersburg: Quick Fixer: david_gaithersburg: TimonC346:

I'm sure that's probably true--the problem is the alternative--which is zero representation of anyone but European or Asian descent at any high end American schools. Which then throws in our face AND highlights institutionalized racism all at the same time.

Considering where these kids are starting from, Affirmative Action is sort of like a necessary evil. It is inherently unfair to make up for the societal unfairness of simply being born a different color. I'm not sure if that bodes well for it being constitutional, but I certainly support it.

^^^^^^^^^^
..
.
Where is"societal unfairness" mentioned...

Right there.


LOL, if that makes you feel better
 
2012-10-12 09:31:08 AM
Racist, like asshats, come in all colors
 
2012-10-12 09:31:28 AM
Screw affirmative action. Affirmative action should be action at the individual level.

I know MANY Asians who came to this country with nothing, their parents worked in sweat jobs and menial labor, but stressed education and direction. Most of their kids went on to graduate from college, and become doctors, lawyers, professionals.

On the flipside, I know many kids born in this country (regardless of race) with a damn silver spoon in their mouths, always got the best clothing, newest video game systems, latest computer and gadget, and don't even make an attempt to make anything of themselves, yet think the country/world OWES THEM a comfortable life.
 
2012-10-12 09:34:02 AM

Bontesla: Silly Jesus: zedster: Silly Jesus: Sha-nay-nay just sounds less professional than Michelle. I don't think that that is necessarily a race thing, it's just a ridiculous phonetic name vs. a traditional name thing.

yes, and traditional names change. Sure they could do the same thing foreign call centers do and use fake names, but why should you be judged by what your parents named you?

//does not apply for the name shiathead (pronounced Sha-theed) and yes, I've heard of at least one case of this from two sources talking about the same person

Genetics? If you parents genes resulted in them thinking that it was a good idea to name you Lemonjello then you inherited those genes and that is a consideration in your future work performance.

Frank Zappa was crazy...he named his kids crazy names, my favorite being Moon Unit. If Moon Unit asked me for a job I would rightfully assume that her parents were mentally unstable and that she just might be as well.

Ridiculous names carry weight, like it or not.

But we don't need to imagine such extreme differences. The name Greg carries a different weight than Jamal or Donte. Williard than Freeman. Milton than Marcus.

My name is Jessica. I had it made socially. They studied the name Jessica and compared it to Bernadette. Similar essay responses and Jessica scored worse than Bernadette at an alarming rate. Teachers gave the academic benefit to a "smart" name and not the "popular" name.

/I did "ok" in K-12 because I was lazy. I made it into an elite college but obviously not based on academic success.


I wonder if there is some causation vs correlation at play here.

The black folks I knew in college were overwhelmingly named William and Greg etc. while the black folks who daily appear in the local police blotter are overwhelmingly named Dumbtavious and Rodricus etc.
 
2012-10-12 09:35:13 AM

Dadoody: Screw affirmative action. Affirmative action should be action at the individual level.

I know MANY Asians who came to this country with nothing, their parents worked in sweat jobs and menial labor, but stressed education and direction. Most of their kids went on to graduate from college, and become doctors, lawyers, professionals.

On the flipside, I know many kids born in this country (regardless of race) with a damn silver spoon in their mouths, always got the best clothing, newest video game systems, latest computer and gadget, and don't even make an attempt to make anything of themselves, yet think the country/world OWES THEM a comfortable life.


One girl I knew from college, named Thanh, had a BAYONET scar in her back as a NV solder had rammed it at her as she was fleeing the country with her family. Her family made it onto a boat and to the ocean, but half of them died from exposure and starvation. The rest of them were somehow saved by US Navy, came here with nothing and have done more with that nothing than many American born have done with ALL the resources they could ever need at their disposal. Blacks, Hispanics, Whites, and even American born Asians.
 
2012-10-12 09:35:29 AM

MycroftHolmes: Affirmative action may be a clumsy tool that can result in some negative consequence, but the need for some corrective mechanism to counteract institutional bias is undeniable, if the goal is an integrated, classless society of equal opportunity.


California tried to be progressive and create an integrated, raceless society. Problem is the people that benefit the most from non-integrated, race-based society voted against it(you know, non-whites. I can't say minorities because white is a minority in California.. guess they should get affirmative action).
 
2012-10-12 09:35:42 AM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: ChuDogg: Asians only achieve status due to the "model minority" stigma. The whites say jump and they say "how high" look good little worker bees in this hyper capitalist dystopia. I don't feel the need to apologize that blacks and browns have taken an alternate path and decide to take what is owed to us.

What the fark? Seriously, that's the most racist thing I've seen on Fark up to this point. And I read the politics tab.


That's because you have a white privelege resulting from centuries of a colonial-slave complex. Take your soap blunders off.

It's kool though, different people react differently to oppression, asians just happened to snap into place and were generously rewarded by their colonialist masters. Those who point to them as the model to follow are the real racists. But the shackles of oppression will one day come off and those white boys trembling over some true equality are bout to shiat donuts.
 
2012-10-12 09:35:58 AM
If you ant to help the disadvantaged, help the poor.

If you want diversity, look at their experience on their application.

Race based affirmative action at this point is like using a web of wrongs to make a right.
 
2012-10-12 09:36:47 AM
Just no way a person can be for affirmative action and not be racist.

Also, not one single study, anywhere, ever, has shown a benefit to forced diversity. Only study ever admitted to a court was in the Grutter case, it showed affirmative action actually pisses everyone off, white and minorities.

Liberals are ruining everything.

Base everything on merit, as it should be.
 
2012-10-12 09:36:53 AM
It is funny how they want to become incredibly angry when a judgment is based on the color of their skin, unless it works in their favor. Skin color should not be a factor you are admitted based on your merits nothing more and nothing less. It is a sad thing our highest court cannot see this simple truth.
 
2012-10-12 09:37:42 AM

Silly Jesus: Bontesla: Silly Jesus: zedster: Silly Jesus: Sha-nay-nay just sounds less professional than Michelle. I don't think that that is necessarily a race thing, it's just a ridiculous phonetic name vs. a traditional name thing.

yes, and traditional names change. Sure they could do the same thing foreign call centers do and use fake names, but why should you be judged by what your parents named you?

//does not apply for the name shiathead (pronounced Sha-theed) and yes, I've heard of at least one case of this from two sources talking about the same person

Genetics? If you parents genes resulted in them thinking that it was a good idea to name you Lemonjello then you inherited those genes and that is a consideration in your future work performance.

Frank Zappa was crazy...he named his kids crazy names, my favorite being Moon Unit. If Moon Unit asked me for a job I would rightfully assume that her parents were mentally unstable and that she just might be as well.

Ridiculous names carry weight, like it or not.

But we don't need to imagine such extreme differences. The name Greg carries a different weight than Jamal or Donte. Williard than Freeman. Milton than Marcus.

My name is Jessica. I had it made socially. They studied the name Jessica and compared it to Bernadette. Similar essay responses and Jessica scored worse than Bernadette at an alarming rate. Teachers gave the academic benefit to a "smart" name and not the "popular" name.

/I did "ok" in K-12 because I was lazy. I made it into an elite college but obviously not based on academic success.

I wonder if there is some causation vs correlation at play here.

The black folks I knew in college were overwhelmingly named William and Greg etc. while the black folks who daily appear in the local police blotter are overwhelmingly named Dumbtavious and Rodricus etc.


Is your middle name Wayne? You might be a serial killer.
 
2012-10-12 09:38:37 AM

MycroftHolmes: Dear Jerk: Studies have shown that minorities who got through college on affirmative action do just as well in their careers as other graduates from the same schools. That points out the fact that America is all about opportunity. I'd be willing to get rid of affirmative action if we could also get rid of nepotism and cronyism, which are exponentially more of a problem. In fact, affirmative action was created a slight remedy to nepotism and cronyism. If you're a mediocre white kid who didn't get admitted to the college of your choice, you can fight for real justice, or you can be practical and network better. You have that opportunity.

/ I got suckered in by Shelby Steele's 'Content of Their Character' when it came out. Until I realized that it assumes a level playing field. The level playing field is a given in conservative logic.

This is spot on. The whole idea of judging people based on their merit should only be applied to affirmative action if it can be equally applied to all other candidates as well. And since so much is based on interviews and rapport, and people naturally form rapport with people who are similar to them, it iwill be almost impossible to ever have a system that is entirely merit based.


We're talking about the University of Texas in this particular case. Do they actually base their admissions on interviews? That would be a serious undertaking for a school that size. Every college I applied to (Virginia Tech, WVU, Ohio State) accepted me based on my high school transcripts (and race). There were no interviews or essay questions.

Affirmative action may be a clumsy tool that can result in some negative consequence, but the need for some corrective mechanism to counteract institutional bias is undeniable, if the goal is an integrated, classless society of equal opportunity.

I never really bought into that goal. Unless we go full communist, there's always going to be somebody who was born with poor parents. Making sure that being born with poor parents doesn't lock you in to being poor is a good thing, but we can't screw people over to get there. There's a point where we have to say, "tough shiat. You had 18 years of good-enough educational opportunities but you still didn't make the cut. Go to community college instead."
 
2012-10-12 09:38:51 AM
I think we first need to get over the "everyone deserves to go to college!" mindset.

College really is turning into high school 2.0
 
2012-10-12 09:39:06 AM

Private_Citizen: If they really want to give people a leg up, don't base it on skin color, base it on economic status. Being poor makes it hard to succeed, regardless of your race. If a disadvantaged student can score as well as a privildged one, you know which one has the talent and the drive - and which one coasted.


The problem with this "logic" is that poor white boys who complain about this just didn't take advantage of the priveleges and opportunties that were offered to them. At every stage a life of helping hand was offered in school and work, yet they either partied or were just lazy. Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

Now I'm supposed to be told by some white priveleged dude that he had it worse than the ghetto cuz his momma was poor too? Lol
 
2012-10-12 09:39:34 AM

serial_crusher: Bontesla: Ha. If you think the white students were there only because of merit then you're part of the problem. White students, specifically affluent white students, are given the advantage since birth.

So, do you genuinely think that affluent black students don't get the same or equivalent opportunities from birth?
That's why race is a shiatty determiner. Being poor is actually what causes most of the problems you're mentioning. (Except maybe the bit about how different teachers respond to different students).

If you gave preference based on parental income, I'd be a little less pissed than I am giving preference based on race. I've got my own slew of anecdotes about how parental income is irrelevant to some students.


Absolutely. Affluent white kids are given more opportunities and advantages than affluent black kids. Affluent black kids more than poor black kids.

I'm okay with race-based Affirmative Action but I'd also like to see it expanded to socioeconmic status, too.
 
2012-10-12 09:39:54 AM

Dadoody: Dadoody: Screw affirmative action. Affirmative action should be action at the individual level.

I know MANY Asians who came to this country with nothing, their parents worked in sweat jobs and menial labor, but stressed education and direction. Most of their kids went on to graduate from college, and become doctors, lawyers, professionals.

On the flipside, I know many kids born in this country (regardless of race) with a damn silver spoon in their mouths, always got the best clothing, newest video game systems, latest computer and gadget, and don't even make an attempt to make anything of themselves, yet think the country/world OWES THEM a comfortable life.

One girl I knew from college, named Thanh, had a BAYONET scar in her back as a NV solder had rammed it at her as she was fleeing the country with her family. Her family made it onto a boat and to the ocean, but half of them died from exposure and starvation. The rest of them were somehow saved by US Navy, came here with nothing and have done more with that nothing than many American born have done with ALL the resources they could ever need at their disposal. Blacks, Hispanics, Whites, and even American born Asians.


That sounds boot strappy and must be ridiculed on FARK, be warned.
 
2012-10-12 09:40:52 AM
Of course "minorities" should get coddling, preferential treatment.

And Obamaphones.
 
2012-10-12 09:40:57 AM

ChuDogg: Private_Citizen: If they really want to give people a leg up, don't base it on skin color, base it on economic status. Being poor makes it hard to succeed, regardless of your race. If a disadvantaged student can score as well as a privildged one, you know which one has the talent and the drive - and which one coasted.

The problem with this "logic" is that poor white boys who complain about this just didn't take advantage of the priveleges and opportunties that were offered to them. At every stage a life of helping hand was offered in school and work, yet they either partied or were just lazy. Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

Now I'm supposed to be told by some white priveleged dude that he had it worse than the ghetto cuz his momma was poor too? Lol


Don't talk about david_gaithersburg like he's not even in the room.
 
2012-10-12 09:41:30 AM

Profedius: It is funny how they want to become incredibly angry when a judgment is based on the color of their skin, unless it works in their favor. Skin color should not be a factor you are admitted based on your merits nothing more and nothing less. It is a sad thing our highest court cannot see this simple truth.


So, you are saying that currently, in hiring, admittance, and other practices, that race is not a factor? No one is currently ever judged simply by the color of their skin or their general appearance? Also, you are saying that 'merits' of (a job, a college admittance, a court decision, etc.) is a purely objective standard and subjective judgement never comes into play?

of course the answer to those questions is a resounding no. So it is unfair in the extreme to rail against affirmative action as being racist (of course it is, by definition), while not acknowledging or addressing the problems that affirmative action seeks to address.
 
2012-10-12 09:41:45 AM

Thunderpipes: Just no way a person can be for affirmative action and not be racist.

Also, not one single study, anywhere, ever, has shown a benefit to forced diversity. Only study ever admitted to a court was in the Grutter case, it showed affirmative action actually pisses everyone off, white and minorities.

Liberals are ruining everything.

Base everything on merit, as it should be.


Fair and balanced.
 
2012-10-12 09:42:59 AM

ChuDogg: Private_Citizen: If they really want to give people a leg up, don't base it on skin color, base it on economic status. Being poor makes it hard to succeed, regardless of your race. If a disadvantaged student can score as well as a privildged one, you know which one has the talent and the drive - and which one coasted.

The problem with this "logic" is that poor white boys who complain about this just didn't take advantage of the priveleges and opportunties that were offered to them. At every stage a life of helping hand was offered in school and work, yet they either partied or were just lazy. Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

Now I'm supposed to be told by some white priveleged dude that he had it worse than the ghetto cuz his momma was poor too? Lol


Just curious, how old are you? Because it doesn't sound like you're (accurately) describing the environment that present-day college applicants grew up in. What privileges do poor white kids get that poor black kids don't?
 
2012-10-12 09:43:31 AM

ChuDogg: Private_Citizen: If they really want to give people a leg up, don't base it on skin color, base it on economic status. Being poor makes it hard to succeed, regardless of your race. If a disadvantaged student can score as well as a privildged one, you know which one has the talent and the drive - and which one coasted.

The problem with this "logic" is that poor white boys who complain about this just didn't take advantage of the priveleges and opportunties that were offered to them. At every stage a life of helping hand was offered in school and work, yet they either partied or were just lazy. Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

Now I'm supposed to be told by some white priveleged dude that he had it worse than the ghetto cuz his momma was poor too? Lol


See, racist came in all colors. Thanks for proving my point
 
2012-10-12 09:43:46 AM

Silly Jesus:
The black folks I knew in college were overwhelmingly named William and Greg etc. while the black folks who daily appear in the local police blotter are overwhelmingly named Dumbtavious and Rodricus etc.


Needs more apostrophes and random capitalization, or punctuation symbols.

La-a = Ladasha
-&ria = Dashandria
 
2012-10-12 09:43:48 AM

Silly Jesus: Bontesla: Silly Jesus: zedster: Silly Jesus: Sha-nay-nay just sounds less professional than Michelle. I don't think that that is necessarily a race thing, it's just a ridiculous phonetic name vs. a traditional name thing.

yes, and traditional names change. Sure they could do the same thing foreign call centers do and use fake names, but why should you be judged by what your parents named you?

//does not apply for the name shiathead (pronounced Sha-theed) and yes, I've heard of at least one case of this from two sources talking about the same person

Genetics? If you parents genes resulted in them thinking that it was a good idea to name you Lemonjello then you inherited those genes and that is a consideration in your future work performance.

Frank Zappa was crazy...he named his kids crazy names, my favorite being Moon Unit. If Moon Unit asked me for a job I would rightfully assume that her parents were mentally unstable and that she just might be as well.

Ridiculous names carry weight, like it or not.

But we don't need to imagine such extreme differences. The name Greg carries a different weight than Jamal or Donte. Williard than Freeman. Milton than Marcus.

My name is Jessica. I had it made socially. They studied the name Jessica and compared it to Bernadette. Similar essay responses and Jessica scored worse than Bernadette at an alarming rate. Teachers gave the academic benefit to a "smart" name and not the "popular" name.

/I did "ok" in K-12 because I was lazy. I made it into an elite college but obviously not based on academic success.

I wonder if there is some causation vs correlation at play here.

The black folks I knew in college were overwhelmingly named William and Greg etc. while the black folks who daily appear in the local police blotter are overwhelmingly named Dumbtavious and Rodricus etc.


Freakanomics also did a bit on this. As it turns out - the Greg's are more likely to come from a more stable household than the Dumbtavious's. But - holding for all things equal - Dumbtavious is less likely to be given the same opportunities as Greg.
 
2012-10-12 09:43:59 AM

Frank N Stein: I think we first need to get over the "everyone deserves to go to college!" mindset.

College really is turning into high school 2.0


This is true.

If everyone in the US went to college... Bachelors degrees would be the new GED.
 
2012-10-12 09:44:35 AM
It's more than a little disheartening to see that the number of posters to this thread that actually understand what UT's acceptance policy actually is (You know, the actual subject of the current case?) can be counted on the fingers of a single hand.

And it goes without saying that the most prolific and vociferous posters are not not among that group.

Kinda like the folks with a jones about "hate crimes" who don't know what they actually are.
 
2012-10-12 09:44:45 AM

serial_crusher: Just curious, how old are you? Because it doesn't sound like you're (accurately) describing the environment that present-day college applicants grew up in. What privileges do poor white kids get that poor black kids don't?


Are you honestly saying that if you take wo kids, one white, one black, and dress them up the same, they will be treated the same by society, whether it is interacting with police, applying for a job, etc.? I don't buy this.
 
2012-10-12 09:45:16 AM

ChuDogg: Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.


oag.org

Yes, the insatiable appetite for educations that blacks have is undeniable.
 
2012-10-12 09:45:29 AM

give me doughnuts: Silly Jesus:
The black folks I knew in college were overwhelmingly named William and Greg etc. while the black folks who daily appear in the local police blotter are overwhelmingly named Dumbtavious and Rodricus etc.

Needs more apostrophes and random capitalization, or punctuation symbols.

La-a = Ladasha
-&ria = Dashandria


Take him to school, Braeden!
 
2012-10-12 09:45:52 AM
editorial.sidereel.com

Affirmative Action is available to those who qualify.
 
2012-10-12 09:46:34 AM
I just had an epiphany that would solve the issue at hand....

College applications should have no identifying information on them. Only your grades, test scores, etc.

No names, no DOBs, no addresses, just a randomly-generated ID number. When the applicant shows up for class, you'll be able to see who was worthy.

That's both equal and fair.
 
2012-10-12 09:46:53 AM
MycroftHolmes:

post...

post...

post...

post...


I like the cut of your jib.
 
2012-10-12 09:47:10 AM

Frank N Stein: ChuDogg: Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

[oag.org image 721x475]

Yes, the insatiable appetite for educations that blacks have is undeniable.


LOL. You beat down a group, put them at a disadvantage, and then tell them it is their fault when they can't break the cycle that you put them in. Well done. People like you are what convince me that, despite be clumsy and heavy handed, programs like affirmative action are essential.
 
2012-10-12 09:49:04 AM

MycroftHolmes: Frank N Stein: ChuDogg: Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

[oag.org image 721x475]

Yes, the insatiable appetite for educations that blacks have is undeniable.

LOL. You beat down a group, put them at a disadvantage, and then tell them it is their fault when they can't break the cycle that you put them in. Well done. People like you are what convince me that, despite be clumsy and heavy handed, programs like affirmative action are essential.


Did you look at the top line on the graph?
 
2012-10-12 09:49:07 AM
"not not"?

Not.

Knothead.

Management regrets the error.
 
2012-10-12 09:49:36 AM

MycroftHolmes: LOL. You beat down a group, put them at a disadvantage, and then tell them it is their fault when they can't break the cycle that you put them in. Well done. People like you are what convince me that, despite be clumsy and heavy handed, programs like affirmative action are essential.


I'm counter trolling ChugDogg
 
2012-10-12 09:50:03 AM

Lunaville: Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.

Your statement makes a certain amount of sense. When I was very young I opposed affirmative action. One of the smartest people at my high school was a black female. I thought, obviously, anyone would trip over themselves to accept her to their college or hire her. I thought affirmative action was insulting to people like her. Then I began to work at actual jobs versus, for instance, babysitting.

By the time I was 23 years old, I had done a 180. I had worked at places where I was not allowed to even provide an application to black people. I was required to say the business was out of applications. Resumes received from black people were not even kept on file. They were tossed directly into the trash. Funny thing about jobs like that, they manage to make the "acceptable" people allowed to work in such a place perfectly miserable. An owner/manager that dedicated to acting unjustly and inequitably certainly isn't going to treat the people s/he does hire fairly or respectfully.

I concede that other, non-race based, discrimination happens. After picking up a little experience and learning to stand my ground a bit, I worked in a retail store where I refused to have anything at all to do with applications. Personnel accepting applications had been directed to code the application indicating the race of the applicant and whether the applicant was fat. The store set a limited number of positions that could be held by non-white people and would not exceed that number. If you were fat, however, you weren't getting hired, period.

When you are young you imagine that people strive to be as intelligent, logical, and fair mi ...


Luna, you are a horrible horrible person and much of what is wrong with this entire issue is wholely your fault personally. It is nice that you recognized racist practices and actions. It is also nice that you were offended by them.

But you failed to act. It was incumbent on you to step up for those that were clearly discriminated against. Yet you did nothing.

You champion a terrible concept like affirmative action. It is only necessary because cowards like yourself fail to act.

But keep patting yourself on the back for being such a good person.
 
2012-10-12 09:50:26 AM

ChuDogg: Private_Citizen: If they really want to give people a leg up, don't base it on skin color, base it on economic status. Being poor makes it hard to succeed, regardless of your race. If a disadvantaged student can score as well as a privildged one, you know which one has the talent and the drive - and which one coasted.

The problem with this "logic" is that poor white boys who complain about this just didn't take advantage of the priveleges and opportunties that were offered to them. At every stage a life of helping hand was offered in school and work, yet they either partied or were just lazy. Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

Now I'm supposed to be told by some white priveleged dude that he had it worse than the ghetto cuz his momma was poor too? Lol


You're probably just trolling, but in case you actually believe the drivel you just spouted:

No, if you're poor, it sucks. Period. In your fevered brain, you may imagine that poor white people are somehow treated better than poor blacks - but I assure you, hunger could care less about your skin color. Crappy clothes, worn out shoes and no coat don't care if your in the hood or the hills. And getting hit by an alcoholic parent hurts whether your hair is straight or curly.

Overcoming poverty and scoring as well as a priviledged kid shows raw talent and a drive to succeed. That should be rewarded when it comes time to get into a college.
 
2012-10-12 09:50:54 AM
Since this is about admissions at The University of Texas, and it is the weekend of the Red River Shootout, I would just like to point out that in a unanimous decision, the Supreme Court has ruled that OU Sucks.

Hook 'em.

cache.deadspin.com
 
2012-10-12 09:51:41 AM

Bontesla: Silly Jesus: Bontesla: Silly Jesus: zedster: Silly Jesus: Sha-nay-nay just sounds less professional than Michelle. I don't think that that is necessarily a race thing, it's just a ridiculous phonetic name vs. a traditional name thing.

yes, and traditional names change. Sure they could do the same thing foreign call centers do and use fake names, but why should you be judged by what your parents named you?

//does not apply for the name shiathead (pronounced Sha-theed) and yes, I've heard of at least one case of this from two sources talking about the same person

Genetics? If you parents genes resulted in them thinking that it was a good idea to name you Lemonjello then you inherited those genes and that is a consideration in your future work performance.

Frank Zappa was crazy...he named his kids crazy names, my favorite being Moon Unit. If Moon Unit asked me for a job I would rightfully assume that her parents were mentally unstable and that she just might be as well.

Ridiculous names carry weight, like it or not.

But we don't need to imagine such extreme differences. The name Greg carries a different weight than Jamal or Donte. Williard than Freeman. Milton than Marcus.

My name is Jessica. I had it made socially. They studied the name Jessica and compared it to Bernadette. Similar essay responses and Jessica scored worse than Bernadette at an alarming rate. Teachers gave the academic benefit to a "smart" name and not the "popular" name.

/I did "ok" in K-12 because I was lazy. I made it into an elite college but obviously not based on academic success.

I wonder if there is some causation vs correlation at play here.

The black folks I knew in college were overwhelmingly named William and Greg etc. while the black folks who daily appear in the local police blotter are overwhelmingly named Dumbtavious and Rodricus etc.

Freakanomics also did a bit on this. As it turns out - the Greg's are more likely to come from a more stable household than the Dumbtavious' ...


Life isn't fair.
 
2012-10-12 09:52:49 AM

give me doughnuts: MycroftHolmes: Frank N Stein: ChuDogg: Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

[oag.org image 721x475]

Yes, the insatiable appetite for educations that blacks have is undeniable.

LOL. You beat down a group, put them at a disadvantage, and then tell them it is their fault when they can't break the cycle that you put them in. Well done. People like you are what convince me that, despite be clumsy and heavy handed, programs like affirmative action are essential.

Did you look at the top line on the graph?


Yep. Believe me, as an Asian, I can tell you that we do not endure the day to day casual bias that a black or hispanic individual endures. And our history of in the US does not contain nearly the same quality or quanitity of conflict.
 
2012-10-12 09:54:58 AM
Affirmative action is just a band aid for the real issue, how public schools are funded. It's basically "Sorry you grew up in an impoverished area with no funding for the school and as such had almost no hope of scoring decently on the ACT/SAT. Here have some bonus points on an application to a college you'll most likely fail out of, we're cool now right?".

Fix the root of the problem, don't just toss students 4 years at a better school to make up for K-12 neglect.
 
2012-10-12 09:55:46 AM

MycroftHolmes: Frank N Stein: ChuDogg: Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

[oag.org image 721x475]

Yes, the insatiable appetite for educations that blacks have is undeniable.

LOL. You beat down a group, put them at a disadvantage, and then tell them it is their fault when they can't break the cycle that you put them in. Well done. People like you are what convince me that, despite be clumsy and heavy handed, programs like affirmative action are essential.


You have to want to improve your lot in life in order for it to actually improve. Drive through your local projects in the middle of the day and look at all of the people who could be out applying for a job or working or doing anything other than what they are doing.
 
2012-10-12 09:57:56 AM

ha-ha-guy: Affirmative action is just a band aid for the real issue, how public schools are funded. It's basically "Sorry you grew up in an impoverished area with no funding for the school and as such had almost no hope of scoring decently on the ACT/SAT. Here have some bonus points on an application to a college you'll most likely fail out of, we're cool now right?".

Fix the root of the problem, don't just toss students 4 years at a better school to make up for K-12 neglect.


There is a large element of truth in this. The overarching truth is that from birth, the playing field is not level. Affirmative Action is a clumsy and heavy handed way of leveling the playing field late in the game. The better solution would be to level the playing field earlier in life, but that is a complex problem that is not easily addressed.

The answer is not to stand at the top of the hill and say 'field looks perfectly level from where I am at, what's your problem?'
 
2012-10-12 09:58:38 AM

ha-ha-guy: Affirmative action is just a band aid for the real issue, how public schools are funded. It's basically "Sorry you grew up in an impoverished area with no funding for the school and as such had almost no hope of scoring decently on the ACT/SAT. Here have some bonus points on an application to a college you'll most likely fail out of, we're cool now right?".

Fix the root of the problem, don't just toss students 4 years at a better school to make up for K-12 neglect.


California doesn't fund in such a manner, yet it produces the same results(poor urban districts actually get more money per student than more affluent suburbs in general, and way more than middle class suburbs). So don't give me that bullshiat. The problem isn't the schools, it's the people, it's the culture, it's the acceptance of anything but success. Asian dad meme is a stereotype based in fact, but Asian dad meme doesn't have to be an Asian dad, it can be any dad, and that will generate success.
 
2012-10-12 10:00:50 AM

JackieRabbit: Based on what I have read, this young lady would not have been admitted regardless of any consideration of race. Her HS academic performance and SAT scores simply were not high enough and her composite score in UT's formula just a tad too low for her to be admitted. Close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades


IF they weren't giving special preference for race then the bar for everyone would be a little lower.
 
2012-10-12 10:01:00 AM

Silly Jesus: MycroftHolmes: Frank N Stein: ChuDogg: Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

[oag.org image 721x475]

Yes, the insatiable appetite for educations that blacks have is undeniable.

LOL. You beat down a group, put them at a disadvantage, and then tell them it is their fault when they can't break the cycle that you put them in. Well done. People like you are what convince me that, despite be clumsy and heavy handed, programs like affirmative action are essential.

You have to want to improve your lot in life in order for it to actually improve. Drive through your local projects in the middle of the day and look at all of the people who could be out applying for a job or working or doing anything other than what they are doing.


A snapshot in time. That's all one needs to understand the state of society. Well done.
 
2012-10-12 10:01:03 AM

bhcompy: ha-ha-guy: Affirmative action is just a band aid for the real issue, how public schools are funded. It's basically "Sorry you grew up in an impoverished area with no funding for the school and as such had almost no hope of scoring decently on the ACT/SAT. Here have some bonus points on an application to a college you'll most likely fail out of, we're cool now right?".

Fix the root of the problem, don't just toss students 4 years at a better school to make up for K-12 neglect.

California doesn't fund in such a manner, yet it produces the same results(poor urban districts actually get more money per student than more affluent suburbs in general, and way more than middle class suburbs). So don't give me that bullshiat. The problem isn't the schools, it's the people, it's the culture, it's the acceptance of anything but success. Asian dad meme is a stereotype based in fact, but Asian dad meme doesn't have to be an Asian dad, it can be any dad, and that will generate success.


THIS
 
2012-10-12 10:01:18 AM
I have a Pakistani friend and we were both talking about going to college (13 years ago). We had similar grades, scores and activities. His dad was/is the premier heart surgeon of the region, they live in a 16,000 sf mansion with elevators, indoor pool etc...(that they also paid cash for)

I was talking about how hard it was gonna be for me to put myself through school, not complaining just talking about what I needed to do, since my parents couldn't do it given my mother was dying.

He said: "That sucks man, wanna hear something stupid? I was given a full ride because I'm Pakistani"
 
2012-10-12 10:01:50 AM

Silly Jesus: MycroftHolmes: Frank N Stein: ChuDogg: Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

[oag.org image 721x475]

Yes, the insatiable appetite for educations that blacks have is undeniable.

LOL. You beat down a group, put them at a disadvantage, and then tell them it is their fault when they can't break the cycle that you put them in. Well done. People like you are what convince me that, despite be clumsy and heavy handed, programs like affirmative action are essential.

You have to want to improve your lot in life in order for it to actually improve. Drive through your local projects in the middle of the day and look at all of the people who could be out applying for a job or working or doing anything other than what they are doing.


There is some element of truth in that, but it goes deeper than that. Look at the people who have been unemployed during the recession, a lot of them have given up hope after 2 years of failure.

Now, imagine your whole life, every time you try, society, in some way, shape, or form, tells you that you can't succeed, you belong in the projects. Eventually, you start believing it, even become proud of it as a way of defending your ego and become part of the system to perpetuate the cycle.

The culture of projects and ghettos is a symptom, not a cause, of the problem. It is part of the cycle. Break the cycle, and then everyone will at least have a fighting chance.
 
2012-10-12 10:02:26 AM

MycroftHolmes: serial_crusher: Just curious, how old are you? Because it doesn't sound like you're (accurately) describing the environment that present-day college applicants grew up in. What privileges do poor white kids get that poor black kids don't?

Are you honestly saying that if you take wo kids, one white, one black, and dress them up the same, they will be treated the same by society, whether it is interacting with police, applying for a job, etc.? I don't buy this.


Absolutely. The black kid might have the occasional run in with a racist idiot, but if he's going to get hung up on that, his problem goes farther than just his skin color.
 
2012-10-12 10:03:11 AM

PallMall: I just had an epiphany that would solve the issue at hand....

College applications should have no identifying information on them. Only your grades, test scores, etc.

No names, no DOBs, no addresses, just a randomly-generated ID number. When the applicant shows up for class, you'll be able to see who was worthy.

That's both equal and fair.


In the mid-eighties I had a white, female high school English teacher who participated in an experiment that dictated that no identifying information could appear on about half the work we handed in for a grade. A few weeks in, she explained to each of her classes that she had always thought she was fair minded and utterly opposed to racism. She got a little weepy as she explained that the results of the experiment showed that when grades from the work with identifying information were compared to the grades from the work that could not be connected to an individual she had consistently given lower grades to certain groups of people when they were identified than when they were not.

She made an apology to each of her classes. Then she made it a permanent policy that all work turned in for a grade had to be labeled with only a numerical code. When she returned graded material, she stepped out of the room while we retrieved the paper that belonged to us so that she wouldn't know which code belonged to which student.

If all the world made the sincere effort she did, we maybe wouldn't need affirmative action.
 
2012-10-12 10:03:12 AM
As someone who went to a low class, black and hispanic majority school, I must say that the best way to get minorities into college would be a reform of our public education system. It's a personal anecdote, yes, but I know that more than a few fellow classmates had any sort of desire to learn crushed by the soul-killing hellhole that is Bloom High School.

www.trulia.com
Blue=Bloom High School
Light blue=District
Grey=Illinois Average

The place is full of teachers who don't care, teachers that are racists, administration that are only there because of political connections, and students that don't want to be there. Young teachers, ones that generally do care, are soon driven out of this school
 
2012-10-12 10:03:23 AM

serial_crusher: ChuDogg: Private_Citizen: If they really want to give people a leg up, don't base it on skin color, base it on economic status. Being poor makes it hard to succeed, regardless of your race. If a disadvantaged student can score as well as a privildged one, you know which one has the talent and the drive - and which one coasted.

The problem with this "logic" is that poor white boys who complain about this just didn't take advantage of the priveleges and opportunties that were offered to them. At every stage a life of helping hand was offered in school and work, yet they either partied or were just lazy. Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

Now I'm supposed to be told by some white priveleged dude that he had it worse than the ghetto cuz his momma was poor too? Lol

Just curious, how old are you? Because it doesn't sound like you're (accurately) describing the environment that present-day college applicants grew up in. What privileges do poor white kids get that poor black kids don't?


Jesus christ man, you gotta be kidding me?

By ackknowlidging the racism inherent in society you are defaco supporting that racism. By not ackknowlidging privelges you are inherently supporting priveleges.

This is why affirmative action is needed. If you simply deny something is there it doesn't go away. It stays there.

So if you want racism tobstay there, well just keep denying it. But stay mad when peoples of all colors call you a racist white boy. Every single poster in this thread sniveling at a little opportunity given to blacks is racist. Attempting to deny racism is racist. Take a sociology class or two I don't have time to educate you on every facet of structuralist society.

Stay mad.
 
2012-10-12 10:03:24 AM
"Screw you!" should be made the new American national motto.
 
2012-10-12 10:03:27 AM

serial_crusher: MycroftHolmes: serial_crusher: Just curious, how old are you? Because it doesn't sound like you're (accurately) describing the environment that present-day college applicants grew up in. What privileges do poor white kids get that poor black kids don't?

Are you honestly saying that if you take wo kids, one white, one black, and dress them up the same, they will be treated the same by society, whether it is interacting with police, applying for a job, etc.? I don't buy this.

Absolutely. The black kid might have the occasional run in with a racist idiot, but if he's going to get hung up on that, his problem goes farther than just his skin color.


You aren't a minority, are you? Specifically, you aren't black, are you?
 
2012-10-12 10:04:15 AM

MycroftHolmes: Silly Jesus: MycroftHolmes: Frank N Stein: ChuDogg: Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

[oag.org image 721x475]

Yes, the insatiable appetite for educations that blacks have is undeniable.

LOL. You beat down a group, put them at a disadvantage, and then tell them it is their fault when they can't break the cycle that you put them in. Well done. People like you are what convince me that, despite be clumsy and heavy handed, programs like affirmative action are essential.

You have to want to improve your lot in life in order for it to actually improve. Drive through your local projects in the middle of the day and look at all of the people who could be out applying for a job or working or doing anything other than what they are doing.

There is some element of truth in that, but it goes deeper than that. Look at the people who have been unemployed during the recession, a lot of them have given up hope after 2 years of failure.

Now, imagine your whole life, every time you try, society, in some way, shape, or form, tells you that you can't succeed, you belong in the projects. Eventually, you start believing it, even become proud of it as a way of defending your ego and become part of the system to perpetuate the cycle.

The culture of projects and ghettos is a symptom, not a cause, of the problem. It is part of the cycle. Break the cycle, and then everyone will at least have a fighting chance.


You sound like you want to do away with the Democratic plantations.
 
2012-10-12 10:04:42 AM

MycroftHolmes: Now, imagine your whole life, every time you try, society, in some way, shape, or form, tells you that you can't succeed, you belong in the projects.


LOL. You're dumb.
 
2012-10-12 10:04:49 AM

Lunaville: Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.

Your statement makes a certain amount of sense. When I was very young I opposed affirmative action. One of the smartest people at my high school was a black female. I thought, obviously, anyone would trip over themselves to accept her to their college or hire her. I thought affirmative action was insulting to people like her. Then I began to work at actual jobs versus, for instance, babysitting.

By the time I was 23 years old, I had done a 180. I had worked at places where I was not allowed to even provide an application to black people. I was required to say the business was out of applications. Resumes received from black people were not even kept on file. They were tossed directly into the trash. Funny thing about jobs like that, they manage to make the "acceptable" people allowed to work in such a place perfectly miserable. An owner/manager that dedicated to acting unjustly and inequitably certainly isn't going to treat the people s/he does hire fairly or respectfully.

I concede that other, non-race based, discrimination happens. After picking up a little experience and learning to stand my ground a bit, I worked in a retail store where I refused to have anything at all to do with applications. Personnel accepting applications had been directed to code the application indicating the race of the applicant and whether the applicant was fat. The store set a limited number of positions that could be held by non-white people and would not exceed that number. If you were fat, however, you weren't getting hired, period.

When you are young you imagine that people strive to be as intelligent, logical, and fair mi ...


You're talking too much sense in this thread. The standard response is some knee-jerk, high-and-mighty, butthurt and distorting statement about how AA is an offense to god and flag, making sure to avoid looking at society at large and the still powerful forces AA was meants to address - admittedly, as with any large-scale issue imperfectly.

But no, almost everyone in this thread sounds like the young lady who brought this suit (her co-plaintiff has abandoned the case), a butthurt, whiny little thing the U of Texas has pointed out would not have made it into their school regardless. But apparently this was too much for the little snowflake to take and she had to cover her scholastic inadequacies by trying to take down a program that is helping hundreds of disadvantaged students. She is a buffoon for bringing this case.
 
2012-10-12 10:05:30 AM

Silly Jesus: MycroftHolmes: Frank N Stein: ChuDogg: Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

[oag.org image 721x475]

Yes, the insatiable appetite for educations that blacks have is undeniable.

LOL. You beat down a group, put them at a disadvantage, and then tell them it is their fault when they can't break the cycle that you put them in. Well done. People like you are what convince me that, despite be clumsy and heavy handed, programs like affirmative action are essential.

You have to want to improve your lot in life in order for it to actually improve. Drive through your local projects in the middle of the day and look at all of the people who could be out applying for a job or working or doing anything other than what they are doing.


Here's the thing - when you can make "minimum wage" on disability - I don't blame anyone who decides not to work at Walmart or Amazon. What incentive does anyone have to work your butt off when you will only ever make the same amount as someone not working? Especially when you have a 3rd grade reading level and an incomplete high school education - your options are limited.

When you decide that criminal activity can be even more profitable - I can fully sympathize and understand how that looks like an attractive alternative.

Want to clean up the projects? We start with great education, a focus on college, and enough resources to make up for a single parent household in which one parent is working multiple jobs.
 
2012-10-12 10:07:57 AM

Lunaville: In the mid-eighties I had a white, female high school English teacher who participated in an experiment that dictated that no identifying information could appear on about half the work we handed in for a grade. A few weeks in, she explained to each of her classes that she had always thought she was fair minded and utterly opposed to racism. She got a little weepy as she explained that the results of the experiment showed that when grades from the work with identifying information were compared to the grades from the work that could not be connected to an individual she had consistently given lower grades to certain groups of people when they were identified than when they were not.

She made an apology to each of her classes. Then she made it a permanent policy that all work turned in for a grade had to be labeled with only a numerical code. When she returned graded material, she stepped out of the room while we retrieved the paper that belonged to us so that she wouldn't know which code belonged to which student.

If all the world made the sincere effort she did, we maybe wouldn't need affirmative action.


I think it should be mandatory. Subconsciously, most of us are prejudiced in one way or another. May not be racism specifically, but we're definitely prejudiced toward something.

Random codes as ID removes the common prejudices and bigoted frame of mind. Well, unless you hate numbers or random alphanumeric strings.
 
2012-10-12 10:08:04 AM

Joe Blowme: Legalized racism, pure and simple.


Considering we had it the opposite direction for hundreds of years, white people won't have anything to complain about until about 2360.
 
2012-10-12 10:08:40 AM
 
2012-10-12 10:08:53 AM

MycroftHolmes: Specifically, you aren't black, are you?


IN MY PANTS!!!!

/amidoinitrite?
 
2012-10-12 10:09:03 AM

bhcompy: ha-ha-guy: Affirmative action is just a band aid for the real issue, how public schools are funded. It's basically "Sorry you grew up in an impoverished area with no funding for the school and as such had almost no hope of scoring decently on the ACT/SAT. Here have some bonus points on an application to a college you'll most likely fail out of, we're cool now right?".

Fix the root of the problem, don't just toss students 4 years at a better school to make up for K-12 neglect.

California doesn't fund in such a manner, yet it produces the same results(poor urban districts actually get more money per student than more affluent suburbs in general, and way more than middle class suburbs). So don't give me that bullshiat. The problem isn't the schools, it's the people, it's the culture, it's the acceptance of anything but success. Asian dad meme is a stereotype based in fact, but Asian dad meme doesn't have to be an Asian dad, it can be any dad, and that will generate success.


A well resourced school doesn't remove systematic and institutional bias. Why would you think it would?
 
2012-10-12 10:11:03 AM

taurusowner: Or....we could just judge people not be the color of their skin but by the content of their charter, or in this case, mind.


Judge people on the content of their mind?? What are you? The thought police?!?!
 
2012-10-12 10:11:48 AM

Bontesla: Silly Jesus: MycroftHolmes: Frank N Stein: ChuDogg: Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

[oag.org image 721x475]

Yes, the insatiable appetite for educations that blacks have is undeniable.

LOL. You beat down a group, put them at a disadvantage, and then tell them it is their fault when they can't break the cycle that you put them in. Well done. People like you are what convince me that, despite be clumsy and heavy handed, programs like affirmative action are essential.

You have to want to improve your lot in life in order for it to actually improve. Drive through your local projects in the middle of the day and look at all of the people who could be out applying for a job or working or doing anything other than what they are doing.

Here's the thing - when you can make "minimum wage" on disability - I don't blame anyone who decides not to work at Walmart or Amazon. What incentive does anyone have to work your butt off when you will only ever make the same amount as someone not working? Especially when you have a 3rd grade reading level and an incomplete high school education - your options are limited.

When you decide that criminal activity can be even more profitable - I can fully sympathize and understand how that looks like an attractive alternative.

Want to clean up the projects? We start with great education, a focus on college, and enough resources to make up for a single parent household in which one parent is working multiple jobs.


Or take away the giveaway programs. Hunger is an awfully good incentive for finding a job and bettering yourself.

/but but they will just start stealing to get food... Fine, shoot them. Seriously. If you are going to steal because you are too lazy or stupid to work, then you contribute nothing to society and don't deserve a place in it.
 
2012-10-12 10:11:49 AM

Bontesla: bhcompy: ha-ha-guy: Affirmative action is just a band aid for the real issue, how public schools are funded. It's basically "Sorry you grew up in an impoverished area with no funding for the school and as such had almost no hope of scoring decently on the ACT/SAT. Here have some bonus points on an application to a college you'll most likely fail out of, we're cool now right?".

Fix the root of the problem, don't just toss students 4 years at a better school to make up for K-12 neglect.

California doesn't fund in such a manner, yet it produces the same results(poor urban districts actually get more money per student than more affluent suburbs in general, and way more than middle class suburbs). So don't give me that bullshiat. The problem isn't the schools, it's the people, it's the culture, it's the acceptance of anything but success. Asian dad meme is a stereotype based in fact, but Asian dad meme doesn't have to be an Asian dad, it can be any dad, and that will generate success.

A well resourced school doesn't remove systematic and institutional bias. Why would you think it would?


It's institutionalized bias in favor of poor, black schools.

Sooner or later you're going to have to admit that if you want to help poor minorities, then they need to meet you half way and participate in the academic process.
 
2012-10-12 10:13:35 AM

PallMall: Race, ethnicity, color, religion, etc should have NOTHING to do with getting in to college. Affirmative action hurts otherwise qualified candidates from getting there.

College admissions should be based on scores, and the prospective student's competence.


There should be a better procedure for selections. There are kids with good test scores who are going to get there and drink their way through 2 semesters before dropping out the same as there are kids with lower test scores who will get there and bust their asses to graduate cum laude.

Basing college admissions on scores and grades only assumes all scores and grades from all sources are standardized.
 
2012-10-12 10:14:00 AM

Tricky Chicken: Lunaville: Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.

Your statement makes a certain amount of sense. When I was very young I opposed affirmative action. One of the smartest people at my high school was a black female. I thought, obviously, anyone would trip over themselves to accept her to their college or hire her. I thought affirmative action was insulting to people like her. Then I began to work at actual jobs versus, for instance, babysitting.

By the time I was 23 years old, I had done a 180. I had worked at places where I was not allowed to even provide an application to black people. I was required to say the business was out of applications. Resumes received from black people were not even kept on file. They were tossed directly into the trash. Funny thing about jobs like that, they manage to make the "acceptable" people allowed to work in such a place perfectly miserable. An owner/manager that dedicated to acting unjustly and inequitably certainly isn't going to treat the people s/he does hire fairly or respectfully.

I concede that other, non-race based, discrimination happens. After picking up a little experience and learning to stand my ground a bit, I worked in a retail store where I refused to have anything at all to do with applications. Personnel accepting applications had been directed to code the application indicating the race of the applicant and whether the applicant was fat. The store set a limited number of positions that could be held by non-white people and would not exceed that number. If you were fat, however, you weren't getting hired, period.

When you are young you imagine that people strive to be as intelligent, logical, ...


Well, I whined ineffectively about it to management. I would like to say I took some deeply courageous stand, but I didn't. When I realized I couldn't stand to work places that actively discriminated, my idea of protesting was to line up another job, then, resign. It's not exactly taking a grenade to save your buddies. Looking back on it with the benefit of hindsight, there is probably some government agency I might have reported the situation to. There had to have been something more effective than saying "I don't like this and I'm hiding in the stockroom when applicants come in from now on!"
 
2012-10-12 10:17:13 AM

Silly Jesus: ChuDogg:


dneiwert.blogspot.com
 
2012-10-12 10:18:17 AM

Silly Jesus: Bontesla: Silly Jesus: MycroftHolmes: Frank N Stein: ChuDogg: Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

[oag.org image 721x475]

Yes, the insatiable appetite for educations that blacks have is undeniable.

LOL. You beat down a group, put them at a disadvantage, and then tell them it is their fault when they can't break the cycle that you put them in. Well done. People like you are what convince me that, despite be clumsy and heavy handed, programs like affirmative action are essential.

You have to want to improve your lot in life in order for it to actually improve. Drive through your local projects in the middle of the day and look at all of the people who could be out applying for a job or working or doing anything other than what they are doing.

Here's the thing - when you can make "minimum wage" on disability - I don't blame anyone who decides not to work at Walmart or Amazon. What incentive does anyone have to work your butt off when you will only ever make the same amount as someone not working? Especially when you have a 3rd grade reading level and an incomplete high school education - your options are limited.

When you decide that criminal activity can be even more profitable - I can fully sympathize and understand how that looks like an attractive alternative.

Want to clean up the projects? We start with great education, a focus on college, and enough resources to make up for a single parent household in which one parent is working multiple jobs.

Or take away the giveaway programs. Hunger is an awfully good incentive for finding a job and bettering yourself.

/but but they will just start stealing to get food... Fine, shoot them. Seriously. If you are going to steal because you are too lazy or stupid to work, then you contribute nothing to society and don't deserve a place in it.


Because a starving applicant has the resources to obtain adequate employment? They can afford clothes for the interview, access to resume builders and printers, and can perform comparably to well-fed candidates? Right.

Certainly the poor nutritional diet wouldn't result in bad teeth and skin. Definitely not.

Certainly the starving candidate can wash their clothes prior to each interview. Can afford transportation to the interview.

Do you know what's more motivating than starvation? Hope, opportunity, and equality.
 
2012-10-12 10:20:39 AM

ha-ha-guy: Affirmative action is just a band aid for the real issue, how public schools are funded. It's basically "Sorry you grew up in an impoverished area with no funding for the school and as such had almost no hope of scoring decently on the ACT/SAT. Here have some bonus points on an application to a college you'll most likely fail out of, we're cool now right?".

Fix the root of the problem, don't just toss students 4 years at a better school to make up for K-12 neglect.


This is an excellent point. The inequities that continue to exist within the public school system are outrageous. And I think, with the current drive toward embracing for-profit, corporate charter schools, the gaps are going to get worse not better. I'm all for public charters, even scholarships to non-profit private schools, but the primary goal of a for-profit entity is always going to be profit.
 
2012-10-12 10:23:31 AM

dustygrimp: There should be a better procedure for selections. There are kids with good test scores who are going to get there and drink their way through 2 semesters before dropping out the same as there are kids with lower test scores who will get there and bust their asses to graduate cum laude.

Basing college admissions on scores and grades only assumes all scores and grades from all sources are standardized.


Who cares if they drink themselves through semesters and dropping out? It's their money! If they drop out, then there will be an opening next round of classes.
 
2012-10-12 10:23:35 AM

Bontesla: Because a starving applicant has the resources to obtain adequate employment? They can afford clothes for the interview, access to resume builders and printers, and can perform comparably to well-fed candidates? Right.

Certainly the poor nutritional diet wouldn't result in bad teeth and skin. Definitely not.

Certainly the starving candidate can wash their clothes prior to each interview. Can afford transportation to the interview.

Do you know what's more motivating than starvation? Hope, opportunity, and equality.


Yeah, it's too bad all those resources they're given go towards big screen TVs at Rent-A-Center.
 
2012-10-12 10:24:06 AM

Bontesla: bhcompy: ha-ha-guy: Affirmative action is just a band aid for the real issue, how public schools are funded. It's basically "Sorry you grew up in an impoverished area with no funding for the school and as such had almost no hope of scoring decently on the ACT/SAT. Here have some bonus points on an application to a college you'll most likely fail out of, we're cool now right?".

Fix the root of the problem, don't just toss students 4 years at a better school to make up for K-12 neglect.

California doesn't fund in such a manner, yet it produces the same results(poor urban districts actually get more money per student than more affluent suburbs in general, and way more than middle class suburbs). So don't give me that bullshiat. The problem isn't the schools, it's the people, it's the culture, it's the acceptance of anything but success. Asian dad meme is a stereotype based in fact, but Asian dad meme doesn't have to be an Asian dad, it can be any dad, and that will generate success.

A well resourced school doesn't remove systematic and institutional bias. Why would you think it would?


What bias would that be? Whites are a minority of faculty at LAUSD schools.
 
2012-10-12 10:24:21 AM

ChuDogg: Silly Jesus: ChuDogg:

[dneiwert.blogspot.com image 300x199]


archive.4chon.net
 
2012-10-12 10:24:32 AM
Half of you are idiots, the other half are morans. I'll let both sides settle the debate.
 
2012-10-12 10:24:44 AM
i.imgur.com

Pretty much all you need to know about why drawing attention to ethnic minorities (when there are many routes to expedited college admissions) is itself playing the racial card.
 
2012-10-12 10:25:25 AM

dustygrimp: Basing college admissions on scores and grades only assumes all scores and grades from all sources are standardized.


Then they can go to a college where their version of the test is a closer match to the school.

It's not rocket science. There are regional differences as well as cultural. Don't be a knave.
 
2012-10-12 10:26:07 AM

Bontesla: Because a starving applicant has the resources to obtain adequate employment? They can afford clothes for the interview, access to resume builders and printers, and can perform comparably to well-fed candidates? Right.

Certainly the poor nutritional diet wouldn't result in bad teeth and skin. Definitely not.

Certainly the starving candidate can wash their clothes prior to each interview. Can afford transportation to the interview.

Do you know what's more motivating than starvation? Hope, opportunity, and equality.


The McDonald's around the corner from the projects always seems to be hiring...and from the looks of the employees, their standards aren't very high. It's a starting point.

OR we could just keep sending them a check every month so that they are content living right on the cusp of starvation with no incentive to change.
 
2012-10-12 10:28:16 AM

Silly Jesus: Bontesla: Silly Jesus: MycroftHolmes: Frank N Stein: ChuDogg: Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

[oag.org image 721x475]

Yes, the insatiable appetite for educations that blacks have is undeniable.

LOL. You beat down a group, put them at a disadvantage, and then tell them it is their fault when they can't break the cycle that you put them in. Well done. People like you are what convince me that, despite be clumsy and heavy handed, programs like affirmative action are essential.

You have to want to improve your lot in life in order for it to actually improve. Drive through your local projects in the middle of the day and look at all of the people who could be out applying for a job or working or doing anything other than what they are doing.

Here's the thing - when you can make "minimum wage" on disability - I don't blame anyone who decides not to work at Walmart or Amazon. What incentive does anyone have to work your butt off when you will only ever make the same amount as someone not working? Especially when you have a 3rd grade reading level and an incomplete high school education - your options are limited.

When you decide that criminal activity can be even more profitable - I can fully sympathize and understand how that looks like an attractive alternative.

Want to clean up the projects? We start with great education, a focus on college, and enough resources to make up for a single parent household in which one parent is working multiple jobs.

Or take away the giveaway programs. Hunger is an awfully good incentive for finding a job and bettering yourself.

/but but they will just start stealing to get food... Fine, shoot them. Seriously. If you are going to steal because you are too lazy or stupid to work, then you contribute nothing to society and don't deserve a place in it.


Let people starve and shoot them if they try to acquire food: Would this policy include children, the elderly, the handicapped?
 
2012-10-12 10:29:16 AM

Lunaville: Silly Jesus: Bontesla: Silly Jesus: MycroftHolmes: Frank N Stein: ChuDogg: Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

[oag.org image 721x475]

Yes, the insatiable appetite for educations that blacks have is undeniable.

LOL. You beat down a group, put them at a disadvantage, and then tell them it is their fault when they can't break the cycle that you put them in. Well done. People like you are what convince me that, despite be clumsy and heavy handed, programs like affirmative action are essential.

You have to want to improve your lot in life in order for it to actually improve. Drive through your local projects in the middle of the day and look at all of the people who could be out applying for a job or working or doing anything other than what they are doing.

Here's the thing - when you can make "minimum wage" on disability - I don't blame anyone who decides not to work at Walmart or Amazon. What incentive does anyone have to work your butt off when you will only ever make the same amount as someone not working? Especially when you have a 3rd grade reading level and an incomplete high school education - your options are limited.

When you decide that criminal activity can be even more profitable - I can fully sympathize and understand how that looks like an attractive alternative.

Want to clean up the projects? We start with great education, a focus on college, and enough resources to make up for a single parent household in which one parent is working multiple jobs.

Or take away the giveaway programs. Hunger is an awfully good incentive for finding a job and bettering yourself.

/but but they will just start stealing to get food... Fine, shoot them. Seriously. If you are going to steal because you are too lazy or stupid to work, then you contribute nothing to society and don't deserve a place in it.

Let people starve and shoot them if they try to acquire food: Would this policy include childre ...


Ah, I should have clarified. It would apply to all able bodied adults.
 
2012-10-12 10:29:23 AM

ChuDogg: Silly Jesus: ChuDogg:

[dneiwert.blogspot.com image 300x199]


itmakessenseblog.com
 
2012-10-12 10:30:11 AM

PallMall: dustygrimp: There should be a better procedure for selections. There are kids with good test scores who are going to get there and drink their way through 2 semesters before dropping out the same as there are kids with lower test scores who will get there and bust their asses to graduate cum laude.

Basing college admissions on scores and grades only assumes all scores and grades from all sources are standardized.

Who cares if they drink themselves through semesters and dropping out? It's their money! If they drop out, then there will be an opening next round of classes.


This makes little sense. You are saying that candidates should be based on their abilities, then saying that their abilities are irrelevant.
 
2012-10-12 10:31:55 AM

Frank N Stein: I must say that the best way to get minorities into college would be a reform of our public education system.


Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner!

Colleges and universities cannot admit unqualified students just because they happen to be minorities. It is a disservice to all students and especially the minorities. Under-representation of minorities was once a racial problem, but this has not been the case for over 30 years. Today, it is a social problem that Affirmative Action cannot resolve.
 
2012-10-12 10:32:03 AM

Somacandra: [i.imgur.com image 500x299]

Pretty much all you need to know about why drawing attention to ethnic minorities (when there are many routes to expedited college admissions) is itself playing the racial card.


So a policy based on race isn't the race card?

That is pretty weak.
 
2012-10-12 10:32:22 AM

Somacandra: [i.imgur.com image 500x299]

Pretty much all you need to know about why drawing attention to ethnic minorities (when there are many routes to expedited college admissions) is itself playing the racial card.


Alumni and large money donors are a very small fraction of admissions. Out of staters can be of any race, and evens itself out since you can apply out of state too. Athletic scholarships consider at least some kind of skill and are usually given to minorities anyway.

These are red herrings.
 
2012-10-12 10:33:16 AM

Lunaville: Resumes received from black people were not even kept on file. They were tossed directly into the trash.


How would you know? Was there a special kind of paper black people used? 

Half the time, I'm taking a wild guess as to whether an applicant is male or female.
 
2012-10-12 10:34:38 AM

fireclown: While we have the hood up, can we get rid of athletic scholarships? Admitting someone to a college because they can dribble well is dumb.


If it didn't benefit them, schools wouldn't do it.
 
2012-10-12 10:34:53 AM

MycroftHolmes: This makes little sense. You are saying that candidates should be based on their abilities, then saying that their abilities are irrelevant.


You're a jack-off idiot.

Candidates going to COLLEGE (hint: for education) should be admitted based on their SMARTS. If they get in and blow it off by getting wasted and screwing around, then so be it.

Trying to pass "drinking" as an ability is ludicrous. Everyone can do that.

College is for higher education. Some folks just aren't cut out for it. Your view on things is fantastical and ridiculous.. but keep on farking that chicken, idiots come in all sorts of shapes and colors.
 
2012-10-12 10:35:53 AM
There is abundant and growing evidence that academic success is determined by the knowledge and vocabulary that you were exposed to by age six. The number of books in the home is a strong indicator of future success. Kids from uppper and upper middle socioeconomic levels start school with an advantage.

While race relations have improved considerably since the advent of affirmative action, you have to be delusional or deliberately blind to claim that there's no racism or advantage to being white. And I could argue that being Asian confers advantages over being black or Hispanic.

I think adding a socioeconomic component would help even the playing field. The child of a couple of black doctors has advantages that the child of a couple of semi-employed white people with low level jobs. But the child of the black doctors it's still subject to racism, although that person is probably facing a more subtle form of racism. And nobody crosses the street to avoid a young Asian man.

It's also true that a black culture of deriding academic success is a problem. The smart black kid who gets good grades but lives in a poor black inner city neighborhood isn't going this have many friends and is going to get beat up for walking home from school carrying textbooks.

The Texas policy of guaranteed admissions to the top 10% isn't really fair. The grades that put you in the top 10% at one school may only be in the 11%-15% at another school.

I grew up in Maryland and when I was in high school, UM had guaranteed admissions for state residents, meaning that you were admitted if you met a certain GPA/SAT level. This is no longer the case.

This issue is more complicated than simple affirmative action.

My husband is a computer programmer, currently works for a large defense contractor. But he has also worked for small and large private companies. Programming is very merit based, you need specific technical skills and certain programming languages for any position and they don't seem to care what kind of name or skin color a person has. His workplaces have always been very diverse but the only black programmers he's worked with were African immigrants. He's a senior guy so here reviews resumes and does interviews. I know how he reviews resumes, he looks for specific skills and about of experience; he doesn't look at the name until he's calling someone in for an interviewe. He told me that he's never even interviewed a non-immigrant black programmer.
 
2012-10-12 10:41:10 AM

Lunaville: Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.

Your statement makes a certain amount of sense. When I was very young I opposed affirmative action. One of the smartest people at my high school was a black female. I thought, obviously, anyone would trip over themselves to accept her to their college or hire her. I thought affirmative action was insulting to people like her. Then I began to work at actual jobs versus, for instance, babysitting.

By the time I was 23 years old, I had done a 180. I had worked at places where I was not allowed to even provide an application to black people. I was required to say the business was out of applications. Resumes received from black people were not even kept on file. They were tossed directly into the trash. Funny thing about jobs like that, they manage to make the "acceptable" people allowed to work in such a place perfectly miserable. An owner/manager that dedicated to acting unjustly and inequitably certainly isn't going to treat the people s/he does hire fairly or respectfully.

I concede that other, non-race based, discrimination happens. After picking up a little experience and learning to stand my ground a bit, I worked in a retail store where I refused to have anything at all to do with applications. Personnel accepting applications had been directed to code the application indicating the race of the applicant and whether the applicant was fat. The store set a limited number of positions that could be held by non-white people and would not exceed that number. If you were fat, however, you weren't getting hired, period.

When you are young you imagine that people strive to be as intelligent, logical, and fair m ...


I was opposed to AA and, having experienced some of the same things you did, came to the conclusion that not only am I still opposed to AA, I believe that business owners should be allowed to be complete bigots. I am happiest if they wear it on their sleeve. That allows me to make sure I never do business with them.

Every company sells capacity -whatever that capacity is. Every company's competitors can get the same capacity it can. In order to make one company's capacity more attractive than another's, that company needs to differentiate its capacity. The way to do that is with the people a company hires. Every employee has something to offer. The best managers are going to figure out what that is and utilize a person's capabilities to the fullest and reward those employees who are most effectively selling that capacity.

If you have a bigot who doesn't want to hire blacks, for example, that bigot is passing by a whole bunch of capacity differentiation. If there is a black who could best fulfill a position and make his company most effective, he'll never know because he wont hire him. Meanwhile, an intelligent competitor of his will hire that black person and they'll both make money. When you force a bigot to hire a minority, I can guarantee you (from about 40 years of experience) that the bigot will not utilize that employee effectively. That is not only a waste of good talent, it deprives a non-bigot of the opportunity to utilize the talents of that minority and afford both the minority and the other business owner of the opportunity to succeed. And, in the meantime, the bigot can trot out his AA employee to prove that he's not a bigot and unsuspecting customers who don't like bigotry will be suckered into doing business with him.

I'm not suggesting that life will be easy for minorities. But success can be attained by those who are willing to go after it. There are too many examples of minorities who have made it in spite of discrimination to argue otherwise. In my opinion, a lot of the discouragement amongst minorities comes from dealing with "closeted" bigots - those who can hide behind AA while still using subtler forms of discrimination. That starts, for many, in the elementary schools with teachers and school administrators and continues all the way through their working life.

It has been demonstrated that minorities who are admitted with lesser standards into top ranked schools have a higher drop out rate. In schools that are operated by minorities or less prestigious schools, minorities' success rate is much better. Has anyone ever done a study to see if that success rate has anything to do with the attitude of faculty and staff at the various institutions? I have a suspicion (not in any way scientifically validated) that there is certain amount of bigotry amongst professors and staff at prestigious schools toward the poor and minorities that isn't found in, for example, black colleges.

AA, in my opinion, tells minorities that they are incapable of achieving without the help of their "betters." Is that a message that is supposed to help them with the confidence that they can achieve?
 
2012-10-12 10:41:45 AM

Phins: His workplaces have always been very diverse but the only black programmers he's worked with were African immigrants.


That's because programming isn't "fo shizzle" to blacks in the US. This has nothing to do with a school. This has to do with parenting and cultural upbringing.

I know a black aerospace engineer. Not DeGrasse black, but full on "Yo homie, wat it do?" black. Smart mofo, but only ended up where he is because his parents taught him that education was important, and getting away from a welfare lifestyle would do him good. That and he was born with the capacity to be intelligent. Most folks are destined to be dumbshiats. It is the law of nature.
 
2012-10-12 10:41:49 AM

Bontesla: Joe Blowme: what_now: Basing affirmative action on race is a practice that, in my opinion, should be ended.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.

So even if you scored a 20 on ACT and i scored 32
, you should get in first because you are poor?

If you think this is the way Affirmative Action works then you should probably educate yourself before forming an opinion.


that's exactly how it works RIGHT NOW, just replace poor for *more melanin in your skin*.
blacks get close to a 50% bump on their SATs compared to Asians. you need to educate yourself before informing us about how ignorant you are about the topic.

http://cornellsun.com/section/opinion/content/2011/11/14/no-asians-n ee d-apply
A study on affirmative action by Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade showed that when numerous factors are controlled for, Hispanic students receive a admissions boost equivalent to around 130 points on the SAT, while black students receive a boost of 310 points. Asian students, however, face a 140 point penalty. It was therefore no surprise when, after California outlawed the use of racial preferences in admissions, the representation of Asian Americans jumped significantly at University of California schools.

Asian students have higher average SAT scores than any other group, including whites. Espenshade found that Asian-Americans needed a 1550 SAT to have an equal chance of getting into an elite college as white students with a 1410 or black students with an 1100.
 
2012-10-12 10:41:53 AM

PallMall: dustygrimp: There should be a better procedure for selections. There are kids with good test scores who are going to get there and drink their way through 2 semesters before dropping out the same as there are kids with lower test scores who will get there and bust their asses to graduate cum laude.

Basing college admissions on scores and grades only assumes all scores and grades from all sources are standardized.

Who cares if they drink themselves through semesters and dropping out? It's their money! If they drop out, then there will be an opening next round of classes.


Your argument was that those with the test scores and grades are deserving. Some of those withe the grades and scores are not. As an admissions officer I would rather have good kids that work hard than smart kids that bring down my graduation rate by boozing their way out of school. By the way, that's who cares. The colleges.
 
2012-10-12 10:42:25 AM
Swap 'racial' diversity for economic/geographic diversity.
e.g. give 'tie-breaker' points to people from under-represented ZIP codes. and under-represented economic classes, etc

The practical effect of that *would be* more diversity. The truly desirable kind (giving opportunities to people who -- statistically and objectively -- haven't been getting them, regardless of the reason.)
You'd side-step race itself as the talking point and future-proof it against new definitions of minority status or reversals of minority fortune.
(i.e. it would be safe from the crap that paranoid white people worry about: what happens when they're the minority. what happens when liberal academics play word games to make minorities out of everyone but the conservative "real 'merkans" and thus discriminate against *them*. etc)
 
2012-10-12 10:43:21 AM

PallMall: MycroftHolmes: This makes little sense. You are saying that candidates should be based on their abilities, then saying that their abilities are irrelevant.

You're a jack-off idiot.

Candidates going to COLLEGE (hint: for education) should be admitted based on their SMARTS. If they get in and blow it off by getting wasted and screwing around, then so be it.

Trying to pass "drinking" as an ability is ludicrous. Everyone can do that.

College is for higher education. Some folks just aren't cut out for it. Your view on things is fantastical and ridiculous.. but keep on farking that chicken, idiots come in all sorts of shapes and colors.


You narrowly define qualifications to fit your arguments. If you are going to base admittance on qualifications, it should also include the ability to actually succeed at the challenges presented. That does include, to varying degrees, the character and discipline to continue your studies, the social and communication skills necessary to interact with the college community, and the drive and intellectual curiousity needed to learn for the sake of learning. To say that grades (not standard across all schools) and test scores (horribly one dimensional) should be the only criteria for college admittance is a horribly shallow and misguided idea, though the idea of creating objective admittance standards is, in itself, not horrible.
 
2012-10-12 10:46:33 AM

ringersol: Swap 'racial' diversity for economic/geographic diversity.
e.g. give 'tie-breaker' points to people from under-represented ZIP codes. and under-represented economic classes, etc

The practical effect of that *would be* more diversity. The truly desirable kind (giving opportunities to people who -- statistically and objectively -- haven't been getting them, regardless of the reason.)
You'd side-step race itself as the talking point and future-proof it against new definitions of minority status or reversals of minority fortune.
(i.e. it would be safe from the crap that paranoid white people worry about: what happens when they're the minority. what happens when liberal academics play word games to make minorities out of everyone but the conservative "real 'merkans" and thus discriminate against *them*. etc)


how about this, do it because discriminating against people based on the color of their skin is wrong. you people have claimed that it is literally the most evil thing a government could possibly participate in but a the same time have championed it since the 1970's.
 
2012-10-12 10:46:58 AM

This text is now purple: How would you know? Was there a special kind of paper black people used?


i141.photobucket.com

/i keed 
//usually blunts
 
2012-10-12 10:47:41 AM

MycroftHolmes: You narrowly define qualifications to fit your arguments. If you are going to base admittance on qualifications, it should also include the ability to actually succeed at the challenges presented. That does include, to varying degrees, the character and discipline to continue your studies, the social and communication skills necessary to interact with the college community, and the drive and intellectual curiousity needed to learn for the sake of learning. To say that grades (not standard across all schools) and test scores (horribly one dimensional) should be the only criteria for college admittance is a horribly shallow and misguided idea, though the idea of creating objective admittance standards is, in itself, not horrible.


Which is why you have things like reference letters from teachers and administrators and extracurricular activities to break the tie with the other people you're competing against who are otherwise as qualified as you. It should be primarily objective, with subjective measures for breaking ties. In many places it's the other way around.
 
2012-10-12 10:47:53 AM

ChuDogg: TimonC346: Silly Jesus: Affirmative action actually harms minorities. They get in over their heads, so to speak, and have a lower rate of graduation from more prestigious schools that they otherwise would not have qualified for.

Source: NPR

I'm sure that's probably true--the problem is the alternative--which is zero representation of anyone but European or Asian descent at any high end American schools. Which then throws in our face AND highlights institutionalized racism all at the same time.

Considering where these kids are starting from, Affirmative Action is sort of like a necessary evil. It is inherently unfair to make up for the societal unfairness of simply being born a different color. I'm not sure if that bodes well for it being constitutional, but I certainly support it.

Asian people cannot be racist because they are not institutionalized. Traditionally racism is something that has been exlusively the domain of the white male power structure. To undo centuries of oppression, slavery and rape affirmitive action is needed to place white males below women and people of color. Centuries of oppression are not reversed in a few years, thus affirmitive action is needed until whites in power represent their true numbers on this black planet (a tiny minority).

Asians only achieve status due to the "model minority" stigma. The whites say jump and they say "how high" look good little worker bees in this hyper capitalist dystopia. I don't feel the need to apologize that blacks and browns have taken an alternate path and decide to take what is owed to us.


Nobody owes you shiat. If your ancestors hadn't been enslaved, you'd be squatting in the mud in some filthy African shiathole with a distended stomach and blowflies crawling on you. It was white people who saved you from Africa, white people who freed you, and white people who send you your welfare checks. Show some gratitude.
 
2012-10-12 10:47:57 AM

Mr. Right: Lunaville: Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.

Your statement makes a certain amount of sense. When I was very young I opposed affirmative action. One of the smartest people at my high school was a black female. I thought, obviously, anyone would trip over themselves to accept her to their college or hire her. I thought affirmative action was insulting to people like her. Then I began to work at actual jobs versus, for instance, babysitting.

By the time I was 23 years old, I had done a 180. I had worked at places where I was not allowed to even provide an application to black people. I was required to say the business was out of applications. Resumes received from black people were not even kept on file. They were tossed directly into the trash. Funny thing about jobs like that, they manage to make the "acceptable" people allowed to work in such a place perfectly miserable. An owner/manager that dedicated to acting unjustly and inequitably certainly isn't going to treat the people s/he does hire fairly or respectfully.

I concede that other, non-race based, discrimination happens. After picking up a little experience and learning to stand my ground a bit, I worked in a retail store where I refused to have anything at all to do with applications. Personnel accepting applications had been directed to code the application indicating the race of the applicant and whether the applicant was fat. The store set a limited number of positions that could be held by non-white people and would not exceed that number. If you were fat, however, you weren't getting hired, period.

When you are young you imagine that people strive to be as intelligent, logical, ...


Your post is logical and makes sense. Your proposition would work until you reach a geographical region where it is culturally unacceptable to hire minorities unless you are forced by government to do so. Then the issue becomes more problematic. Even in our modern world, you might be surprised how many such places still exist.

I especially like the idea of knowing who the bigots are so that we can refuse to do business with bigots.
 
2012-10-12 10:50:01 AM

Phins: My husband is a computer programmer, currently works for a large defense contractor. But he has also worked for small and large private companies. Programming is very merit based, you need specific technical skills and certain programming languages for any position and they don't seem to care what kind of name or skin color a person has. His workplaces have always been very diverse but the only black programmers he's worked with were African immigrants. He's a senior guy so here reviews resumes and does interviews. I know how he reviews resumes, he looks for specific skills and about of experience; he doesn't look at the name until he's calling someone in for an interviewe. He told me that he's never even interviewed a non-immigrant black programmer.


As a student in Computer Science (U. Michigan), I can say that the students are mostly white and East Asian males. Asians are probably a little overrepresented compared to the state, but underrepresented compared to the country (though having been to the West Coast for internships, they're about 50% out there). A few token hispanics, and maybe 2 black students. I've got no idea why there are no black kids, given that we're an hour from Detroit. So when everyone is white and Asian, that's why.

/Also, are they hiring? I'm graduating this December, and am still looking for a job (though I got cold-called by a recruiter while I was finishing this sentence. Lulz).
 
2012-10-12 10:50:33 AM

dustygrimp: Your argument was that those with the test scores and grades are deserving. Some of those withe the grades and scores are not. As an admissions officer I would rather have good kids that work hard than smart kids that bring down my graduation rate by boozing their way out of school. By the way, that's who cares. The colleges.


Those who "DESERVE" to get higher education should be judged on competency in the subjects being taught, not on perceived graduation rates. How do you know who's going to decide getting wasted is more important? Are you a goddamned wizard?

If you're an admissions officer, then you should be fired for being prejudiced and bigoted. I guarantee that the affirmative actions nuts would love to hear how you've instituted your own version.
 
2012-10-12 10:51:08 AM

Somacandra: [i.imgur.com image 500x299]

Pretty much all you need to know about why drawing attention to ethnic minorities (when there are many routes to expedited college admissions) is itself playing the racial card.


Shrug, with the exception of the athlete I'm opposed to special treatment for all the other classes mentioned there too. Maybe the supreme court can knock down all those crappy preference policies at once.

/ The soccer player actually has unique talents that are beneficial to the school's soccer team. I don't see athletic scholarships as being any different than academic scholarships.
 
2012-10-12 10:51:39 AM

MycroftHolmes: You narrowly define qualifications to fit your arguments. If you are going to base admittance on qualifications, it should also include the ability to actually succeed at the challenges presented. That does include, to varying degrees, the character and discipline to continue your studies, the social and communication skills necessary to interact with the college community, and the drive and intellectual curiousity needed to learn for the sake of learning. To say that grades (not standard across all schools) and test scores (horribly one dimensional) should be the only criteria for college admittance is a horribly shallow and misguided idea, though the idea of creating objective admittance standards is, in itself, not horrible.


So only white kids should be admitted then?
 
2012-10-12 10:53:10 AM

Orgasmatron138: Joe Blowme: Legalized racism, pure and simple.

Considering we had it the opposite direction for hundreds of years, white people won't have anything to complain about until about 2360.


Assuming you are working from the date of the passing of the Civil Rights Act in 1964, then the correct future date would be 2152.
 
2012-10-12 10:53:16 AM

JesusJuice: Nobody owes you shiat. If your ancestors hadn't been enslaved, you'd be squatting in the mud in some filthy African shiathole with a distended stomach and blowflies crawling on you. It was white people who saved you from Africa, white people who freed you, and white people who send you your welfare checks. Show some gratitude.


www.we-make-money-not-art.com
 
2012-10-12 10:53:31 AM

bhcompy: MycroftHolmes: You narrowly define qualifications to fit your arguments. If you are going to base admittance on qualifications, it should also include the ability to actually succeed at the challenges presented. That does include, to varying degrees, the character and discipline to continue your studies, the social and communication skills necessary to interact with the college community, and the drive and intellectual curiousity needed to learn for the sake of learning. To say that grades (not standard across all schools) and test scores (horribly one dimensional) should be the only criteria for college admittance is a horribly shallow and misguided idea, though the idea of creating objective admittance standards is, in itself, not horrible.

Which is why you have things like reference letters from teachers and administrators and extracurricular activities to break the tie with the other people you're competing against who are otherwise as qualified as you. It should be primarily objective, with subjective measures for breaking ties. In many places it's the other way around.


Without getting into the details of selection methods, I will say this. Until selection and judgement processes can be objective and unbiased across the board (and this applies to more than just college admittance, but to all aspects of life), I am in favor of some compensatory mechanism like affirmative action, though I do feel that affirmative action itself is currently too clumsy in it's application.
 
2012-10-12 10:55:06 AM

Orgasmatron138: Joe Blowme: Legalized racism, pure and simple.

Considering we had it the opposite direction for hundreds of years, white people won't have anything to complain about until about 2360.


Go apply to a British school, then. The balance clock on legalized racism ran out in 1955, and was reset by the deaths of 4% of the white population.
 
2012-10-12 10:55:36 AM

relcec: Bontesla: Joe Blowme: what_now: Basing affirmative action on race is a practice that, in my opinion, should be ended.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.

So even if you scored a 20 on ACT and i scored 32, you should get in first because you are poor?

If you think this is the way Affirmative Action works then you should probably educate yourself before forming an opinion.

that's exactly how it works RIGHT NOW, just replace poor for *more melanin in your skin*.
blacks get close to a 50% bump on their SATs compared to Asians. you need to educate yourself before informing us about how ignorant you are about the topic.

http://cornellsun.com/section/opinion/content/2011/11/14/no-asians-n ee d-apply
A study on affirmative action by Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade showed that when numerous factors are controlled for, Hispanic students receive a admissions boost equivalent to around 130 points on the SAT, while black students receive a boost of 310 points. Asian students, however, face a 140 point penalty. It was therefore no surprise when, after California outlawed the use of racial preferences in admissions, the representation of Asian Americans jumped significantly at University of California schools.

Asian students have higher average SAT scores than any other group, including whites. Espenshade found that Asian-Americans needed a 1550 SAT to have an equal chance of getting into an elite college as white students with a 1410 or black students with an 1100.


You could sneeze on an SAT score-sheet and get at least an 1100.
 
2012-10-12 10:58:46 AM
Here's a thought. Life isn't fair and we can never artificially make it that way. Some people are born losers, some people are born winners. This is how it has always been and how it will always be despite the "best" efforts of bleeding hearts and self congratulating do-gooders.
 
2012-10-12 10:59:09 AM

MycroftHolmes: Without getting into the details of selection methods, I will say this. Until selection and judgement processes can be objective and unbiased across the board (and this applies to more than just college admittance, but to all aspects of life), I am in favor of some compensatory mechanism like affirmative action, though I do feel that affirmative action itself is currently too clumsy in it's application.


They can never be "objective and unbiased across the board", you nitwit. There are so many variables that the Federal Government should have no place in making a decision on any of this. Regional, cultural, racial differences can't all be lumped in to one pot. HUMANS DIFFER FROM EACH OTHER CULTURALLY.

I can't believe how many folks (who are supposed to be smart) can be so goddamned idiotic and dumb. You're in complete denial about reality, choosing to go with some fantasy you've churned up in your mind because you heard somewhere that minorities are constantly oppressed by evil white people just trying to get them down.

Grow the fark up.
 
2012-10-12 11:00:49 AM

Silly Jesus: Here's a thought. Life isn't fair and we can never artificially make it that way. Some people are born losers, some people are born winners. This is how it has always been and how it will always be despite the "best" efforts of bleeding hearts and self congratulating do-gooders.


Well, that's put better than I tried to putted it on that there thread-a-ma-jig.
 
2012-10-12 11:00:58 AM

ChuDogg: Asian people cannot be racist because they are not institutionalized. TraditionallyA relatively new definition of racism (popular of people who like to blame all the world's ills on white people) is something that has been exlusively the domain of the white male power structure. To undo centuries of oppression, slavery and rape affirmitive action is needed to place white males below women and people of color. Centuries of oppression are not reversed in a few years, thus affirmitive action is needed until whites in power represent their true numbers on this black planet (a tiny minority).


FTFY.
 
2012-10-12 11:02:46 AM

Amos Quito: [editorial.sidereel.com image 400x310]

Affirmative Action is available to those who qualify.


did that black widow dress freak out NOBODY else?
 
2012-10-12 11:03:23 AM

PallMall: MycroftHolmes: Without getting into the details of selection methods, I will say this. Until selection and judgement processes can be objective and unbiased across the board (and this applies to more than just college admittance, but to all aspects of life), I am in favor of some compensatory mechanism like affirmative action, though I do feel that affirmative action itself is currently too clumsy in it's application.

They can never be "objective and unbiased across the board", you nitwit. There are so many variables that the Federal Government should have no place in making a decision on any of this. Regional, cultural, racial differences can't all be lumped in to one pot. HUMANS DIFFER FROM EACH OTHER CULTURALLY.

I can't believe how many folks (who are supposed to be smart) can be so goddamned idiotic and dumb. You're in complete denial about reality, choosing to go with some fantasy you've churned up in your mind because you heard somewhere that minorities are constantly oppressed by evil white people just trying to get them down.

Grow the fark up.


Take a deep breath. Exhale. it will be alright.

You should probably have realized, from the way I worded my comment, that i am fully aware that bias is almost impossible to eliminate from the selection process. My other comments to you were meant to illustrate the complexity in subjectivity required to accurately select candidates. I apologize if I did not make my point clearly.

Complex selection processes will always contain some subjective interpretation, which means that there will always be some bias. Which is why, as heavy handed and clumsy as it is, I favor something like affirmative action.
 
2012-10-12 11:06:14 AM

give me doughnuts: relcec: Bontesla: Joe Blowme: what_now: Basing affirmative action on race is a practice that, in my opinion, should be ended.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.

So even if you scored a 20 on ACT and i scored 32, you should get in first because you are poor?

If you think this is the way Affirmative Action works then you should probably educate yourself before forming an opinion.

that's exactly how it works RIGHT NOW, just replace poor for *more melanin in your skin*.
blacks get close to a 50% bump on their SATs compared to Asians. you need to educate yourself before informing us about how ignorant you are about the topic.

http://cornellsun.com/section/opinion/content/2011/11/14/no-asians-n ee d-apply
A study on affirmative action by Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade showed that when numerous factors are controlled for, Hispanic students receive a admissions boost equivalent to around 130 points on the SAT, while black students receive a boost of 310 points. Asian students, however, face a 140 point penalty. It was therefore no surprise when, after California outlawed the use of racial preferences in admissions, the representation of Asian Americans jumped significantly at University of California schools.

Asian students have higher average SAT scores than any other group, including whites. Espenshade found that Asian-Americans needed a 1550 SAT to have an equal chance of getting into an elite college as white students with a 1410 or black students with an 1100.

You could sneeze on an SAT score-sheet and get at least an 1100.


I think that this was back in the day when it was out of 1600.

You get 900 for signing your name now, but 1100 then was a decent average score that might get you into a state school (and in no way should qualify you for an Ivy. SAT isn't perfect, but in no way was an 1100 equal to a 1550).
 
2012-10-12 11:08:13 AM

Dadoody: Screw affirmative action. Affirmative action should be action at the individual level.

I know MANY Asians who came to this country with nothing, their parents worked in sweat jobs and menial labor, but stressed education and direction. Most of their kids went on to graduate from college, and become doctors, lawyers, professionals.

On the flipside, I know many kids born in this country (regardless of race) with a damn silver spoon in their mouths, always got the best clothing, newest video game systems, latest computer and gadget, and don't even make an attempt to make anything of themselves, yet think the country/world OWES THEM a comfortable life.


On the other hand, did they get shipped to America for education, or did their parents work those sweat jobs and medial labor while being US citizens?

I do believe we should enforce a level of help to the people whose parents put the hard work in the US, and therefore provided the tax dollars to continue to have a functioning country. If MIT ends up only accepting Chinese and Indians from here on out (And without AA, lets not kid ourselves, that's what they're going to accept), where does that leave all the people that provide the support structure that allows MIT to succeed? In this case MIT becomes a leech on the country, educating foreign workers who return home.
 
2012-10-12 11:09:08 AM

MycroftHolmes: Complex selection processes will always contain some subjective interpretation, which means that there will always be some bias. Which is why, as heavy handed and clumsy as it is, I favor something like affirmative action.


Which is why you're part of the problem. Again, some folks are just destined to be truck stop toilet cleaners. Wasting time and taxpayer money to bring them up to mediocre is an insult to those who busted their ass and brings society down as a whole.
 
2012-10-12 11:11:09 AM

meyerkev: give me doughnuts: relcec: Bontesla: Joe Blowme: what_now: Basing affirmative action on race is a practice that, in my opinion, should be ended.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.

So even if you scored a 20 on ACT and i scored 32, you should get in first because you are poor?

If you think this is the way Affirmative Action works then you should probably educate yourself before forming an opinion.

that's exactly how it works RIGHT NOW, just replace poor for *more melanin in your skin*.
blacks get close to a 50% bump on their SATs compared to Asians. you need to educate yourself before informing us about how ignorant you are about the topic.

http://cornellsun.com/section/opinion/content/2011/11/14/no-asians-n ee d-apply
A study on affirmative action by Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade showed that when numerous factors are controlled for, Hispanic students receive a admissions boost equivalent to around 130 points on the SAT, while black students receive a boost of 310 points. Asian students, however, face a 140 point penalty. It was therefore no surprise when, after California outlawed the use of racial preferences in admissions, the representation of Asian Americans jumped significantly at University of California schools.

Asian students have higher average SAT scores than any other group, including whites. Espenshade found that Asian-Americans needed a 1550 SAT to have an equal chance of getting into an elite college as white students with a 1410 or black students with an 1100.

You could sneeze on an SAT score-sheet and get at least an 1100.

I think that this was back in the day when it was out of 1600.

You get 900 for signing your name now, but 1100 then was a decent average score that might get you into a state school (and in no way should qualify you for an Ivy. SAT isn ...


Like I said, you could get an 1100 back in the day with a sneeze. If you couldn't do any better than that, they should just hand you a broom, or a shovel.

(insert Judge Smails pic)
 
2012-10-12 11:11:45 AM

JesusJuice: ChuDogg: TimonC346: Silly Jesus: Affirmative action actually harms minorities. They get in over their heads, so to speak, and have a lower rate of graduation from more prestigious schools that they otherwise would not have qualified for.

Source: NPR

I'm sure that's probably true--the problem is the alternative--which is zero representation of anyone but European or Asian descent at any high end American schools. Which then throws in our face AND highlights institutionalized racism all at the same time.

Considering where these kids are starting from, Affirmative Action is sort of like a necessary evil. It is inherently unfair to make up for the societal unfairness of simply being born a different color. I'm not sure if that bodes well for it being constitutional, but I certainly support it.

Asian people cannot be racist because they are not institutionalized. Traditionally racism is something that has been exlusively the domain of the white male power structure. To undo centuries of oppression, slavery and rape affirmitive action is needed to place white males below women and people of color. Centuries of oppression are not reversed in a few years, thus affirmitive action is needed until whites in power represent their true numbers on this black planet (a tiny minority).

Asians only achieve status due to the "model minority" stigma. The whites say jump and they say "how high" look good little worker bees in this hyper capitalist dystopia. I don't feel the need to apologize that blacks and browns have taken an alternate path and decide to take what is owed to us.

Nobody owes you shiat. If your ancestors hadn't been enslaved, you'd be squatting in the mud in some filthy African shiathole with a distended stomach and blowflies crawling on you. It was white people who saved you from Africa, white people who freed you, and white people who send you your welfare checks. Show some gratitude.


Lol. Finally the hoods come off.

Step up your game. Blacks are here and we have the will to compete. Luckily its your own white women mostly who actually gives opportunities to black on school boards and HR departments. Luckily the old school white boys don't nearly have as much privelege as they used to, not to say they still don't, but its fading fast and the first wave of blacks making their name as true equals have shown their talents and skills cant be quelled any longer from racist whites.

Honestly I think a lot of you are scared of your insecurities. I guess I don't blame you, I wouldn't want to be some scared peckerwood on a black planet. All I can say is get used to it. I ain't staying quiet like my grandfathers did.
 
2012-10-12 11:12:18 AM
Because this is not based on family income, only on race, it sticks out as even more racist. What liberals are saying, is black people in particular are not capable and need handouts. Poor white kids statistically do better in school, even in the same income bracket. Why? Black culture.

Time to take away the bottle. Once again, no study, anywhere, ever, has shown forced integration helps. Colleges keep saying they need diversity, but the fact is, it harms more than it helps when you have people who don't deserve it getting in, and people who worked hard getting denied.
 
2012-10-12 11:15:04 AM

PallMall: College is for higher education. Some folks just aren't cut out for it.


And a runner-up!

Here's one of the problem we have today: we send too many people to college. Historically, only about 18% of the population has been admitted to college. It's really all we need. This has increased in recent years, but the completion rate has not gone up; in fact as a percentage of freshmen admitted, it has done down. Too many students either wash out of college or quit before they complete their degree. Only 44% of freshmen entering college graduate. Drop out rates of minorities is much higher than that of whites. This is because they simply are not adequately prepared for college level work. This isn't because they aren't as intelligent, but because the public schools they attend are so bad.
 
2012-10-12 11:17:09 AM

give me doughnuts: relcec: Bontesla: Joe Blowme: what_now: Basing affirmative action on race is a practice that, in my opinion, should be ended.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.

So even if you scored a 20 on ACT and i scored 32, you should get in first because you are poor?

If you think this is the way Affirmative Action works then you should probably educate yourself before forming an opinion.

that's exactly how it works RIGHT NOW, just replace poor for *more melanin in your skin*.
blacks get close to a 50% bump on their SATs compared to Asians. you need to educate yourself before informing us about how ignorant you are about the topic.

http://cornellsun.com/section/opinion/content/2011/11/14/no-asians-n ee d-apply
A study on affirmative action by Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade showed that when numerous factors are controlled for, Hispanic students receive a admissions boost equivalent to around 130 points on the SAT, while black students receive a boost of 310 points. Asian students, however, face a 140 point penalty. It was therefore no surprise when, after California outlawed the use of racial preferences in admissions, the representation of Asian Americans jumped significantly at University of California schools.

Asian students have higher average SAT scores than any other group, including whites. Espenshade found that Asian-Americans needed a 1550 SAT to have an equal chance of getting into an elite college as white students with a 1410 or black students with an 1100.

You could sneeze on an SAT score-sheet and get at least an 1100.


Well, an 1100 today is different from an 1100 a decade ago, since they went from 1600 point scale to 2400.
 
2012-10-12 11:17:54 AM

what_now: Lets put it this way. Who is more likely to have better grades: Honey Boo Boo or Sasha Obama?


Who is more likely to be someone you actually want at your institution: Honey Boo Boo or Sasha Obama?
 
2012-10-12 11:19:12 AM

bhcompy: Well, an 1100 today is different from an 1100 a decade ago, since they went from 1600 point scale to 2400.


They were going to run out of boosts, so they had to extend it out. When adding 310 to a black score doesn't work, they'll add 800.
 
2012-10-12 11:19:52 AM
Adding points to or subtracting points from an ACT or SAT is essentially meaningless because these tests have been shown time and time again to have absolutely no predictive power on student success in college.

Link

First hit on google... but this practically common knowledge at the secondary level now.
 
2012-10-12 11:20:59 AM
Also you might want to check your history, and no not the white washed version you probably learned in some Lilly white suburb.

Africans had some of the most glorious empires the world had seen. From the Mali empire, Kush, aksum, Egyptians, hell even ancient Israel was black. Whites in Europe were sitting around in straw huts smearing blood and feces on their bodies while Africans were building pyramids and empires.

It was only until whites stole inventions and weapons from colored folks they went on a raping and pillaging spree around the entire planet that literally not a single non white person was not a victim, and their descendants are still reeling from centuries of oppression.

Whites are literally the most evil group of people. Of course not all whites are like this, some of them apologize for it and are willing to step aside for colored folks. But most of you think nothing of keeping this oppression going on today, even blaming victims of your oppression for their sealed fate. I can't wait for the date whites find themself a minority and have to step aside for the brown peoples again. And we can go on and build our glorious global empires on the ruins of colonialist capatilast nations.

Though some of you I think are gonna go all holocaust again before letting nature take its due course.
 
2012-10-12 11:22:01 AM

President Raygun: Adding points to or subtracting points from an ACT or SAT is essentially meaningless because these tests have been shown time and time again to have absolutely no predictive power on student success in college.

Link

First hit on google... but this practically common knowledge at the secondary level now.


Yet they still use it to cull the applicant field
 
2012-10-12 11:22:18 AM

Lunaville: Well, I whined ineffectively about it to management. I would like to say I took some deeply courageous stand, but I didn't. When I realized I couldn't stand to work places that actively discriminated, my idea of protesting was to line up another job, then, resign. It's not exactly taking a grenade to save your buddies. Looking back on it with the benefit of hindsight, there is probably some government agency I might have reported the situation to. There had to have been something more effective than saying "I don't like this and I'm hiding in the stockroom when applicants come in from now on!"


I was a bit harsh, sorry.

I grew up in a town populated by 'white flight', so I had no clue about how racist my environment was until I left. When everybody is white and you only hear derrogatory things about black people, you grow up sort of accepting what you hear. Strangely, many of the stereotypes I heard apply to me (I do not particularly like working, I like fried chicken and watermellon, I tend to be lazy). It never occured to me how disjointed my thinking was until I got into a more normal social environment.

Now when I see one group get angry with/about another, I get uncomfortable.
 
2012-10-12 11:25:38 AM
Thrusting under-qualified students into college because of their race is a disservice to everyone and only promotes racism. If the only black people you meet in college are ones that aren't as prepared as the white students and perform more poorly, that isn't going to leave a good impression in people at a subconscious level. If colleges want to have more latino/black students from underprivileged backgrounds (ie not sons/daughters of doctors/ceo's/lawyers etc.) then they need to have remedial programs where they can work with these students, get them qualified and then allow them to apply on equal terms to everyone else (might take about 2 years). IE we really need to make community college more affordable and realize that it might take 6 years to graduate, which is okay (but we need to help make such affordable).
 
2012-10-12 11:31:22 AM

ChuDogg: Also you might want to check your history, and no not the white washed version you probably learned in some Lilly white suburb.

Africans had some of the most glorious empires the world had seen. From the Mali empire, Kush, aksum, Egyptians, hell even ancient Israel was black. Whites in Europe were sitting around in straw huts smearing blood and feces on their bodies while Africans were building pyramids and empires.

It was only until whites stole inventions and weapons from colored folks they went on a raping and pillaging spree around the entire planet that literally not a single non white person was not a victim, and their descendants are still reeling from centuries of oppression.

Whites are literally the most evil group of people. Of course not all whites are like this, some of them apologize for it and are willing to step aside for colored folks. But most of you think nothing of keeping this oppression going on today, even blaming victims of your oppression for their sealed fate. I can't wait for the date whites find themself a minority and have to step aside for the brown peoples again. And we can go on and build our glorious global empires on the ruins of colonialist capatilast nations.

Though some of you I think are gonna go all holocaust again before letting nature take its due course.


3/10

Not getting into troll college with those grades, son.
 
2012-10-12 11:33:05 AM

ChuDogg: Also you might want to check your history, and no not the white washed version you probably learned in some Lilly white suburb.

Africans had some of the most glorious empires the world had seen. From the Mali empire, Kush, aksum, Egyptians, hell even ancient Israel was black. Whites in Europe were sitting around in straw huts smearing blood and feces on their bodies while Africans were building pyramids and empires.

It was only until whites stole inventions and weapons from colored folks they went on a raping and pillaging spree around the entire planet that literally not a single non white person was not a victim, and their descendants are still reeling from centuries of oppression.

Whites are literally the most evil group of people. Of course not all whites are like this, some of them apologize for it and are willing to step aside for colored folks. But most of you think nothing of keeping this oppression going on today, even blaming victims of your oppression for their sealed fate. I can't wait for the date whites find themself a minority and have to step aside for the brown peoples again. And we can go on and build our glorious global empires on the ruins of colonialist capatilast nations.

Though some of you I think are gonna go all holocaust again before letting nature take its due course.


farkied: most racist farker evar
 
2012-10-12 11:33:52 AM

MycroftHolmes: Profedius: It is funny how they want to become incredibly angry when a judgment is based on the color of their skin, unless it works in their favor. Skin color should not be a factor you are admitted based on your merits nothing more and nothing less. It is a sad thing our highest court cannot see this simple truth.

So, you are saying that currently, in hiring, admittance, and other practices, that race is not a factor? No one is currently ever judged simply by the color of their skin or their general appearance? Also, you are saying that 'merits' of (a job, a college admittance, a court decision, etc.) is a purely objective standard and subjective judgement never comes into play?

of course the answer to those questions is a resounding no. So it is unfair in the extreme to rail against affirmative action as being racist (of course it is, by definition), while not acknowledging or addressing the problems that affirmative action seeks to address.


No. You might try reading that again I said skin color should not be a factor I never said that it wasn't only that it shouldn't be. I also said nothing about jobs or a court decision. On the subject of jobs I really don't think the government should have a say in whom a company employs. If a racist feminist wants to employ only white women she should not be forced by the government to employ a black male. It is up to the consumers to determine if she remains solvent. Affirmative action is nothing more than giving an unfair advantage to a select group and it is as wrong as racism is.
 
2012-10-12 11:37:12 AM

ChuDogg: Also you might want to check your history, and no not the white washed version you probably learned in some Lilly white suburb.

Africans had some of the most glorious empires the world had seen. From the Mali empire, Kush, aksum, Egyptians, hell even ancient Israel was black. Whites in Europe were sitting around in straw huts smearing blood and feces on their bodies while Africans were building pyramids and empires.

It was only until whites stole inventions and weapons from colored folks they went on a raping and pillaging spree around the entire planet that literally not a single non white person was not a victim, and their descendants are still reeling from centuries of oppression.

Whites are literally the most evil group of people. Of course not all whites are like this, some of them apologize for it and are willing to step aside for colored folks. But most of you think nothing of keeping this oppression going on today, even blaming victims of your oppression for their sealed fate. I can't wait for the date whites find themself a minority and have to step aside for the brown peoples again. And we can go on and build our glorious global empires on the ruins of colonialist capatilast nations.

Though some of you I think are gonna go all holocaust again before letting nature take its due course.


Shut up, Honkey.
 
2012-10-12 11:38:39 AM

ChuDogg: Whites are literally the most evil group of people.


I love this guy!

Frank N Stein: Not getting into troll college with those grades, son


I think he is serious...

President Raygun: Adding points to or subtracting points from an ACT or SAT is essentially meaningless because these tests have been shown time and time again to have absolutely no predictive power on student success in college


The raw score alone, yes.
 
2012-10-12 11:39:45 AM

Silly Jesus: So, essentially, if you're not smart enough to get into a good school, it's the fault of society, teachers, parents etc.


Mainly parents. I'm too lazy to pull up articles but one of the strongest predictors of academic performance is how often children are read to when babies/toddlers. If you spend 10 minutes a day reading to a kid everyday they will do much, much better when entering the school system. It really does all come down to parents.

Sadly 1/2 of children under the age of 5 are not read to on a daily basis, with minorities being overrepresented. It's sad when you give a toddler a book upside down and they have no frickin idea what to do with it (when kids who are read to will flip it around and start turning pages).
 
2012-10-12 11:40:32 AM

kaduh: ChuDogg: Also you might want to check your history, and no not the white washed version you probably learned in some Lilly white suburb.

Africans had some of the most glorious empires the world had seen. From the Mali empire, Kush, aksum, Egyptians, hell even ancient Israel was black. Whites in Europe were sitting around in straw huts smearing blood and feces on their bodies while Africans were building pyramids and empires.

It was only until whites stole inventions and weapons from colored folks they went on a raping and pillaging spree around the entire planet that literally not a single non white person was not a victim, and their descendants are still reeling from centuries of oppression.

Whites are literally the most evil group of people. Of course not all whites are like this, some of them apologize for it and are willing to step aside for colored folks. But most of you think nothing of keeping this oppression going on today, even blaming victims of your oppression for their sealed fate. I can't wait for the date whites find themself a minority and have to step aside for the brown peoples again. And we can go on and build our glorious global empires on the ruins of colonialist capatilast nations.

Though some of you I think are gonna go all holocaust again before letting nature take its due course.

Shut up, Honkey.


Im Cherokee, though I probably pass for black to some of you white folks. Not like that helps any.
 
2012-10-12 11:53:07 AM

Lunaville: Your post is logical and makes sense. Your proposition would work until you reach a geographical region where it is culturally unacceptable to hire minorities unless you are forced by government to do so. Then the issue becomes more problematic. Even in our modern world, you might be surprised how many such places still exist.


You are correct that some geographical regions exist where minority hiring isn't going to happen. My solution would be that the minorities should move to where enlightened employers will hire them. I know that's an inconvenience for the minorities but the end result would be that an entire geographical region would suffer. Or, if only a couple employers in those regions not prone to hiring minorities would actually go ahead and hire them, their success would overcome a lot of bigotry. I know more than one bigot who was overcome by greed - in other words, he saw the opportunity that existed by hiring a minority and the fact that he could make money. That goes a long way towards overcoming bigotry and a lot faster than any government mandate.

Look at professional sports. The teams that were willing to hire minorities and utilize them were more successful than the bigots. And suddenly bigotry wasn't profitable. Not a whole lot of bigots in professional sports - they cost owners profits.
 
2012-10-12 11:53:33 AM

The_Homeless_Guy: Silly Jesus: So, essentially, if you're not smart enough to get into a good school, it's the fault of society, teachers, parents etc.

Mainly parents. I'm too lazy to pull up articles but one of the strongest predictors of academic performance is how often children are read to when babies/toddlers. If you spend 10 minutes a day reading to a kid everyday they will do much, much better when entering the school system. It really does all come down to parents.

Sadly 1/2 of children under the age of 5 are not read to on a daily basis, with minorities being overrepresented. It's sad when you give a toddler a book upside down and they have no frickin idea what to do with it (when kids who are read to will flip it around and start turning pages).


I suppose someone is going to come by and say that it's the White Man's fault that the individual minority parents choose not to engage their children with reading?
 
2012-10-12 11:54:39 AM

Silly Jesus: ChuDogg: Also you might want to check your history, and no not the white washed version you probably learned in some Lilly white suburb.

Africans had some of the most glorious empires the world had seen. From the Mali empire, Kush, aksum, Egyptians, hell even ancient Israel was black. Whites in Europe were sitting around in straw huts smearing blood and feces on their bodies while Africans were building pyramids and empires.

It was only until whites stole inventions and weapons from colored folks they went on a raping and pillaging spree around the entire planet that literally not a single non white person was not a victim, and their descendants are still reeling from centuries of oppression.

Whites are literally the most evil group of people. Of course not all whites are like this, some of them apologize for it and are willing to step aside for colored folks. But most of you think nothing of keeping this oppression going on today, even blaming victims of your oppression for their sealed fate. I can't wait for the date whites find themself a minority and have to step aside for the brown peoples again. And we can go on and build our glorious global empires on the ruins of colonialist capatilast nations.

Though some of you I think are gonna go all holocaust again before letting nature take its due course.

farkied: most racist farker evar


Even more racist than Spike Lee's Favorite Farker?
 
2012-10-12 11:55:31 AM

ChuDogg: Im Cherokee, though I probably pass for black to some of you white folks. Not like that helps any.



In that case...

GTFO and go back to smoking the peace pipe, chief. *pats mouth with palm* wop wop wop wop wop wop!!

Get me some wampum, biatch!!
 
2012-10-12 11:58:16 AM

taurusowner: I suppose someone is going to come by and say that it's the White Man's fault that the individual minority parents choose not to engage their children with reading?


Dey dun maid dem books wif white pages. Das racisis!
 
2012-10-12 12:00:18 PM

what_now: I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.


This times a gazillion.
 
2012-10-12 12:01:14 PM

The_Homeless_Guy: Silly Jesus: So, essentially, if you're not smart enough to get into a good school, it's the fault of society, teachers, parents etc.

Mainly parents. I'm too lazy to pull up articles but one of the strongest predictors of academic performance is how often children are read to when babies/toddlers. If you spend 10 minutes a day reading to a kid everyday they will do much, much better when entering the school system. It really does all come down to parents.

Sadly 1/2 of children under the age of 5 are not read to on a daily basis, with minorities being overrepresented. It's sad when you give a toddler a book upside down and they have no frickin idea what to do with it (when kids who are read to will flip it around and start turning pages).


I'm writing my thesis on health literacy. I've got about 30 sources, so far, that support this claim.
 
2012-10-12 12:02:43 PM

Skyrmion: what_now


My point is, the black child has two professional, well educated parents and is growing up in luxury. The white child is being raised by wolves.

Under the current Affirmative Action program, the black child would be given a bump for being a minority while the white child is being considered privileged.

As to answer your question, if Honey boo boo manages to survive till she's college aged, I'll be impressed.
 
2012-10-12 12:05:29 PM

PallMall: dustygrimp: Your argument was that those with the test scores and grades are deserving. Some of those withe the grades and scores are not. As an admissions officer I would rather have good kids that work hard than smart kids that bring down my graduation rate by boozing their way out of school. By the way, that's who cares. The colleges.

Those who "DESERVE" to get higher education should be judged on competency in the subjects being taught, not on perceived graduation rates. How do you know who's going to decide getting wasted is more important? Are you a goddamned wizard?

If you're an admissions officer, then you should be fired for being prejudiced and bigoted. I guarantee that the affirmative actions nuts would love to hear how you've instituted your own version.


Good trolling.

9/10. You got too angry too soon.
 
2012-10-12 12:05:47 PM

ChuDogg: kaduh: ChuDogg: Also you might want to check your history, and no not the white washed version you probably learned in some Lilly white suburb.

Africans had some of the most glorious empires the world had seen. From the Mali empire, Kush, aksum, Egyptians, hell even ancient Israel was black. Whites in Europe were sitting around in straw huts smearing blood and feces on their bodies while Africans were building pyramids and empires.

It was only until whites stole inventions and weapons from colored folks they went on a raping and pillaging spree around the entire planet that literally not a single non white person was not a victim, and their descendants are still reeling from centuries of oppression.

Whites are literally the most evil group of people. Of course not all whites are like this, some of them apologize for it and are willing to step aside for colored folks. But most of you think nothing of keeping this oppression going on today, even blaming victims of your oppression for their sealed fate. I can't wait for the date whites find themself a minority and have to step aside for the brown peoples again. And we can go on and build our glorious global empires on the ruins of colonialist capatilast nations.

Though some of you I think are gonna go all holocaust again before letting nature take its due course.

Shut up, Honkey.

Im Cherokee, though I probably pass for black to some of you white folks. Not like that helps any.


That's a lot of derp from someone who's a white man.

/yes, you're DNA says you're caucasian
 
2012-10-12 12:06:25 PM
you'reyour
 
2012-10-12 12:10:21 PM

dustygrimp: Good trolling.

9/10. You got too angry too soon.


Who's angry? Does using profanities indicate anger, or just a foul-mouthed person?

0/10 for being a wizard sleeve vs. an actual wizard.
 
2012-10-12 12:12:26 PM

ChuDogg: kaduh: ChuDogg: Also you might want to check your history, and no not the white washed version you probably learned in some Lilly white suburb.

Africans had some of the most glorious empires the world had seen. From the Mali empire, Kush, aksum, Egyptians, hell even ancient Israel was black. Whites in Europe were sitting around in straw huts smearing blood and feces on their bodies while Africans were building pyramids and empires.

It was only until whites stole inventions and weapons from colored folks they went on a raping and pillaging spree around the entire planet that literally not a single non white person was not a victim, and their descendants are still reeling from centuries of oppression.

Whites are literally the most evil group of people. Of course not all whites are like this, some of them apologize for it and are willing to step aside for colored folks. But most of you think nothing of keeping this oppression going on today, even blaming victims of your oppression for their sealed fate. I can't wait for the date whites find themself a minority and have to step aside for the brown peoples again. And we can go on and build our glorious global empires on the ruins of colonialist capatilast nations.

Though some of you I think are gonna go all holocaust again before letting nature take its due course.

Shut up, Honkey.

Im Cherokee, though I probably pass for black to some of you white folks. Not like that helps any.


Your tribe conquered people and sold them into slavery (Helping the whites). I'm not sure where you feel you have the upper hand historically.
 
2012-10-12 12:16:18 PM

Mr. Right: Lunaville: Your post is logical and makes sense. Your proposition would work until you reach a geographical region where it is culturally unacceptable to hire minorities unless you are forced by government to do so. Then the issue becomes more problematic. Even in our modern world, you might be surprised how many such places still exist.

You are correct that some geographical regions exist where minority hiring isn't going to happen. My solution would be that the minorities should move to where enlightened employers will hire them. I know that's an inconvenience for the minorities but the end result would be that an entire geographical region would suffer. Or, if only a couple employers in those regions not prone to hiring minorities would actually go ahead and hire them, their success would overcome a lot of bigotry. I know more than one bigot who was overcome by greed - in other words, he saw the opportunity that existed by hiring a minority and the fact that he could make money. That goes a long way towards overcoming bigotry and a lot faster than any government mandate.

Look at professional sports. The teams that were willing to hire minorities and utilize them were more successful than the bigots. And suddenly bigotry wasn't profitable. Not a whole lot of bigots in professional sports - they cost owners profits.


I'll just leave this quote here:

From an anonymous Asst GM. "If Meyers Leonard were black, he'd be the #2 pick"
 
2012-10-12 12:16:38 PM

ChuDogg: JesusJuice: ChuDogg: TimonC346: Silly Jesus: Affirmative action actually harms minorities. They get in over their heads, so to speak, and have a lower rate of graduation from more prestigious schools that they otherwise would not have qualified for.

Source: NPR

I'm sure that's probably true--the problem is the alternative--which is zero representation of anyone but European or Asian descent at any high end American schools. Which then throws in our face AND highlights institutionalized racism all at the same time.

Considering where these kids are starting from, Affirmative Action is sort of like a necessary evil. It is inherently unfair to make up for the societal unfairness of simply being born a different color. I'm not sure if that bodes well for it being constitutional, but I certainly support it.

Asian people cannot be racist because they are not institutionalized. Traditionally racism is something that has been exlusively the domain of the white male power structure. To undo centuries of oppression, slavery and rape affirmitive action is needed to place white males below women and people of color. Centuries of oppression are not reversed in a few years, thus affirmitive action is needed until whites in power represent their true numbers on this black planet (a tiny minority).

Asians only achieve status due to the "model minority" stigma. The whites say jump and they say "how high" look good little worker bees in this hyper capitalist dystopia. I don't feel the need to apologize that blacks and browns have taken an alternate path and decide to take what is owed to us.

Nobody owes you shiat. If your ancestors hadn't been enslaved, you'd be squatting in the mud in some filthy African shiathole with a distended stomach and blowflies crawling on you. It was white people who saved you from Africa, white people who freed you, and white people who send you your welfare checks. Show some gratitude.

Lol. Finally the hoods come off.

Step up your game. Blacks are ...


You are one racist piece of shiat.
 
2012-10-12 12:16:41 PM

bhcompy: ChuDogg: kaduh: ChuDogg: Also you might want to check your history, and no not the white washed version you probably learned in some Lilly white suburb.

Africans had some of the most glorious empires the world had seen. From the Mali empire, Kush, aksum, Egyptians, hell even ancient Israel was black. Whites in Europe were sitting around in straw huts smearing blood and feces on their bodies while Africans were building pyramids and empires.

It was only until whites stole inventions and weapons from colored folks they went on a raping and pillaging spree around the entire planet that literally not a single non white person was not a victim, and their descendants are still reeling from centuries of oppression.

Whites are literally the most evil group of people. Of course not all whites are like this, some of them apologize for it and are willing to step aside for colored folks. But most of you think nothing of keeping this oppression going on today, even blaming victims of your oppression for their sealed fate. I can't wait for the date whites find themself a minority and have to step aside for the brown peoples again. And we can go on and build our glorious global empires on the ruins of colonialist capatilast nations.

Though some of you I think are gonna go all holocaust again before letting nature take its due course.

Shut up, Honkey.

Im Cherokee, though I probably pass for black to some of you white folks. Not like that helps any.

That's a lot of derp from someone who's a white man.

/yes, you're DNA says you're caucasian


Implying DNA proves race. I see racist psuedo science has come a long way since phrenology.
 
2012-10-12 12:18:37 PM
MycroftHolmes
Dear Jerk: Studies have shown that minorities who got through college on affirmative action do just as well in their careers as other graduates from the same schools. That points out the fact that America is all about opportunity. I'd be willing to get rid of affirmative action if we could also get rid of nepotism and cronyism, which are exponentially more of a problem. In fact, affirmative action was created a slight remedy to nepotism and cronyism. If you're a mediocre white kid who didn't get admitted to the college of your choice, you can fight for real justice, or you can be practical and network better. You have that opportunity.

/ I got suckered in by Shelby Steele's 'Content of Their Character' when it came out. Until I realized that it assumes a level playing field. The level playing field is a given in conservative logic.

This is spot on. The whole idea of judging people based on their merit should only be applied to affirmative action if it can be equally applied to all other candidates as well. And since so much is based on interviews and rapport, and people naturally form rapport with people who are similar to them, it iwill be almost impossible to ever have a system that is entirely merit based.

Affirmative action may be a clumsy tool that can result in some negative consequence, but the need for some corrective mechanism to counteract institutional bias is undeniable, if the goal is an integrated, classless society of equal opportunity.
Amen Mr. marx, Amen
 
2012-10-12 12:25:57 PM

ChuDogg: bhcompy: ChuDogg: kaduh: ChuDogg: Also you might want to check your history, and no not the white washed version you probably learned in some Lilly white suburb.

Africans had some of the most glorious empires the world had seen. From the Mali empire, Kush, aksum, Egyptians, hell even ancient Israel was black. Whites in Europe were sitting around in straw huts smearing blood and feces on their bodies while Africans were building pyramids and empires.

It was only until whites stole inventions and weapons from colored folks they went on a raping and pillaging spree around the entire planet that literally not a single non white person was not a victim, and their descendants are still reeling from centuries of oppression.

Whites are literally the most evil group of people. Of course not all whites are like this, some of them apologize for it and are willing to step aside for colored folks. But most of you think nothing of keeping this oppression going on today, even blaming victims of your oppression for their sealed fate. I can't wait for the date whites find themself a minority and have to step aside for the brown peoples again. And we can go on and build our glorious global empires on the ruins of colonialist capatilast nations.

Though some of you I think are gonna go all holocaust again before letting nature take its due course.

Shut up, Honkey.

Im Cherokee, though I probably pass for black to some of you white folks. Not like that helps any.

That's a lot of derp from someone who's a white man.

/yes, you're DNA says you're caucasian

Implying DNA proves race. I see racist psuedo science has come a long way since phrenology.


THAT'S RIGHT BROTHA-MAN!

REALITY HAS A RACIST BIAS AGAINST NON WHITES AND NON ASIANS!

George Washington - Black, Gengis Khan - Black, Abraham Lincoln - Black

But you'd never know this if we let racist-add biologists and scientists do their racist-ass "tests" and "experiments".
 
2012-10-12 12:33:11 PM
Affirmative Action in a nutshell:

- Are you qualified?
Nope.
- Made good grades?
Nope.
- Are you a hard worker??
Nope.
- Are you an honest person?
Nope.
- Are you black?
Yep.

Good enough!!! Welcome aboard!
 
2012-10-12 12:38:11 PM

super_grass: ChuDogg: bhcompy: ChuDogg: kaduh: ChuDogg: Also you might want to check your history, and no not the white washed version you probably learned in some Lilly white suburb.

Africans had some of the most glorious empires the world had seen. From the Mali empire, Kush, aksum, Egyptians, hell even ancient Israel was black. Whites in Europe were sitting around in straw huts smearing blood and feces on their bodies while Africans were building pyramids and empires.

It was only until whites stole inventions and weapons from colored folks they went on a raping and pillaging spree around the entire planet that literally not a single non white person was not a victim, and their descendants are still reeling from centuries of oppression.

Whites are literally the most evil group of people. Of course not all whites are like this, some of them apologize for it and are willing to step aside for colored folks. But most of you think nothing of keeping this oppression going on today, even blaming victims of your oppression for their sealed fate. I can't wait for the date whites find themself a minority and have to step aside for the brown peoples again. And we can go on and build our glorious global empires on the ruins of colonialist capatilast nations.

Though some of you I think are gonna go all holocaust again before letting nature take its due course.

Shut up, Honkey.

Im Cherokee, though I probably pass for black to some of you white folks. Not like that helps any.

That's a lot of derp from someone who's a white man.

/yes, you're DNA says you're caucasian

Implying DNA proves race. I see racist psuedo science has come a long way since phrenology.

THAT'S RIGHT BROTHA-MAN!

REALITY HAS A RACIST BIAS AGAINST NON WHITES AND NON ASIANS!

George Washington - Black, Gengis Khan - Black, Abraham Lincoln - Black

But you'd never know this if we let racist-add biologists and scientists do their racist-ass "tests" and "experiments".


Your not too far off. Modern feminist critical theory suggests that the scientific method, long argued to be entirely neutral and subjective. In fact, its merely a product of our standpoint and subject to the same biases and bigotry of the observor. Since modern science is practically dominated by the white male patriarchy it becomes a tool of oppression toward women and non white minorities.

This is the current consensus amongst academia, and yet another reason affirmitive action is needed. Until whites in positions of power are reduced to their porportionate levels of the global population (about 8%) we will always be plagued by white supremacy.

Lookup standpoint theory or anything by Tim Wise for more info on that.
 
2012-10-12 12:45:00 PM
ChuDogg

Do you realize people like you are the primary reason for rascism today? You have caused a backlash against minorities with your attempts at white guilt. You can scream and biatch and moan all you want about how I, a 26 year old white male whos voting block put the first minority into the oval office, owe you, a person who is distantly related to people who were discriminated against, something. fark you for holding minorities back
 
2012-10-12 12:46:10 PM

ChuDogg: super_grass: ChuDogg: bhcompy: ChuDogg: kaduh: ChuDogg: Also you might want to check your history, and no not the white washed version you probably learned in some Lilly white suburb.

Africans had some of the most glorious empires the world had seen. From the Mali empire, Kush, aksum, Egyptians, hell even ancient Israel was black. Whites in Europe were sitting around in straw huts smearing blood and feces on their bodies while Africans were building pyramids and empires.

It was only until whites stole inventions and weapons from colored folks they went on a raping and pillaging spree around the entire planet that literally not a single non white person was not a victim, and their descendants are still reeling from centuries of oppression.

Whites are literally the most evil group of people. Of course not all whites are like this, some of them apologize for it and are willing to step aside for colored folks. But most of you think nothing of keeping this oppression going on today, even blaming victims of your oppression for their sealed fate. I can't wait for the date whites find themself a minority and have to step aside for the brown peoples again. And we can go on and build our glorious global empires on the ruins of colonialist capatilast nations.

Though some of you I think are gonna go all holocaust again before letting nature take its due course.

Shut up, Honkey.

Im Cherokee, though I probably pass for black to some of you white folks. Not like that helps any.

That's a lot of derp from someone who's a white man.

/yes, you're DNA says you're caucasian

Implying DNA proves race. I see racist psuedo science has come a long way since phrenology.

THAT'S RIGHT BROTHA-MAN!

REALITY HAS A RACIST BIAS AGAINST NON WHITES AND NON ASIANS!

George Washington - Black, Gengis Khan - Black, Abraham Lincoln - Black

But you'd never know this if we let racist-add biologists and scientists do their racist-ass "tests" and "experiments".

Your not too far off. Modern feminis ...


cant tell if you are trolling or just a racist asshat.... but im leaning tward racist asshat
 
2012-10-12 12:58:15 PM

Gdalescrboz: ChuDogg

Do you realize people like you are the primary reason for rascism today? You have caused a backlash against minorities with your attempts at white guilt. You can scream and biatch and moan all you want about how I, a 26 year old white male whos voting block put the first minority into the oval office, owe you, a person who is distantly related to people who were discriminated against, something. fark you for holding minorities back


Lol @ at this argument again "I'm only racist because people like you made me racist!". I know its so tough being white and being reminded of your privelege every now and then.

I've only argued that in an egalitarian society white males would make up positions of power that reflect their porportion of the people around the globe. How could anybody but a racist disagree with that?
 
2012-10-12 01:00:53 PM

Joe Blowme: ChuDogg: super_grass: ChuDogg: bhcompy: ChuDogg: kaduh: ChuDogg: Also you might want to check your history, and no not the white washed version you probably learned in some Lilly white suburb.

Africans had some of the most glorious empires the world had seen. From the Mali empire, Kush, aksum, Egyptians, hell even ancient Israel was black. Whites in Europe were sitting around in straw huts smearing blood and feces on their bodies while Africans were building pyramids and empires.

It was only until whites stole inventions and weapons from colored folks they went on a raping and pillaging spree around the entire planet that literally not a single non white person was not a victim, and their descendants are still reeling from centuries of oppression.

Whites are literally the most evil group of people. Of course not all whites are like this, some of them apologize for it and are willing to step aside for colored folks. But most of you think nothing of keeping this oppression going on today, even blaming victims of your oppression for their sealed fate. I can't wait for the date whites find themself a minority and have to step aside for the brown peoples again. And we can go on and build our glorious global empires on the ruins of colonialist capatilast nations.

Though some of you I think are gonna go all holocaust again before letting nature take its due course.

Shut up, Honkey.

Im Cherokee, though I probably pass for black to some of you white folks. Not like that helps any.

That's a lot of derp from someone who's a white man.

/yes, you're DNA says you're caucasian

Implying DNA proves race. I see racist psuedo science has come a long way since phrenology.

THAT'S RIGHT BROTHA-MAN!

REALITY HAS A RACIST BIAS AGAINST NON WHITES AND NON ASIANS!

George Washington - Black, Gengis Khan - Black, Abraham Lincoln - Black

But you'd never know this if we let racist-add biologists and scientists do their racist-ass "tests" and "experiments".

Your not too far off. Modern feminis ...

cant tell if you are trolling or just a racist asshat.... but im leaning tward racist asshat


It's 2012 is it really too much to ask people to Google something for themself?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standpoint_theory

This is the current scientific consensus. Please educate yourself.
 
2012-10-12 01:00:57 PM
This thread should be deleted now.
 
2012-10-12 01:05:47 PM
ChuDogg:

Theory.. how does it work?

Axiom... how does it work?

Racist asshat.... ChuDogg is how it works.
 
2012-10-12 01:12:50 PM
víctimas theory
Losing the Race: Self-Sabotage in Black America
Author?
www.ommster.com
Looks like a racist

consensus does not equal axiom. See Flat Earth
 
2012-10-12 01:14:45 PM

ChuDogg: Also you might want to check your history, and no not the white washed version you probably learned in some Lilly white suburb.

Africans had some of the most glorious empires the world had seen. From the Mali empire, Kush, aksum, Egyptians, hell even ancient Israel was black. Whites in Europe were sitting around in straw huts smearing blood and feces on their bodies while Africans were building pyramids and empires.

It was only until whites stole inventions and weapons from colored folks they went on a raping and pillaging spree around the entire planet that literally not a single non white person was not a victim, and their descendants are still reeling from centuries of oppression.

Whites are literally the most evil group of people. Of course not all whites are like this, some of them apologize for it and are willing to step aside for colored folks. But most of you think nothing of keeping this oppression going on today, even blaming victims of your oppression for their sealed fate. I can't wait for the date whites find themself a minority and have to step aside for the brown peoples again. And we can go on and build our glorious global empires on the ruins of colonialist capatilast nations.

Though some of you I think are gonna go all holocaust again before letting nature take its due course.


Don't like white people? How about you drag your black ass back ti Africa. You won't be missed.
 
2012-10-12 01:15:57 PM
ChuDogg
Gdalescrboz: ChuDogg

Do you realize people like you are the primary reason for rascism today? You have caused a backlash against minorities with your attempts at white guilt. You can scream and biatch and moan all you want about how I, a 26 year old white male whos voting block put the first minority into the oval office, owe you, a person who is distantly related to people who were discriminated against, something. fark you for holding minorities back

Lol @ at this argument again "I'm only racist because people like you made me racist!". I know its so tough being white and being reminded of your privelege every now and then.

I've only argued that in an egalitarian society white males would make up positions of power that reflect their porportion of the people around the globe. How could anybody but a racist disagree with that?


Im not rascist because someone else made me rascist. Im rascist because minorities in the country are useless unless they are given handouts from white people, as Aa proves. Indians got their ass kicked by a superior race. Black people sold their fellow Africans to the white man and are killing each other in the streets in mass . And Mexicans, well have you lived near a mass of Mexicans? I should apologize for being better than you? You should apologize to me for having to put up with you
 
2012-10-12 01:18:30 PM

bhcompy: Bontesla: bhcompy: ha-ha-guy: Affirmative action is just a band aid for the real issue, how public schools are funded. It's basically "Sorry you grew up in an impoverished area with no funding for the school and as such had almost no hope of scoring decently on the ACT/SAT. Here have some bonus points on an application to a college you'll most likely fail out of, we're cool now right?".

Fix the root of the problem, don't just toss students 4 years at a better school to make up for K-12 neglect.

California doesn't fund in such a manner, yet it produces the same results(poor urban districts actually get more money per student than more affluent suburbs in general, and way more than middle class suburbs). So don't give me that bullshiat. The problem isn't the schools, it's the people, it's the culture, it's the acceptance of anything but success. Asian dad meme is a stereotype based in fact, but Asian dad meme doesn't have to be an Asian dad, it can be any dad, and that will generate success.

A well resourced school doesn't remove systematic and institutional bias. Why would you think it would?

What bias would that be? Whites are a minority of faculty at LAUSD schools.


Numerical minority isn't the same thing as having a minority status.

Why would you assume that bias must be driven by white instructors?
 
2012-10-12 01:19:35 PM

super_grass: Bontesla: bhcompy: ha-ha-guy: Affirmative action is just a band aid for the real issue, how public schools are funded. It's basically "Sorry you grew up in an impoverished area with no funding for the school and as such had almost no hope of scoring decently on the ACT/SAT. Here have some bonus points on an application to a college you'll most likely fail out of, we're cool now right?".

Fix the root of the problem, don't just toss students 4 years at a better school to make up for K-12 neglect.

California doesn't fund in such a manner, yet it produces the same results(poor urban districts actually get more money per student than more affluent suburbs in general, and way more than middle class suburbs). So don't give me that bullshiat. The problem isn't the schools, it's the people, it's the culture, it's the acceptance of anything but success. Asian dad meme is a stereotype based in fact, but Asian dad meme doesn't have to be an Asian dad, it can be any dad, and that will generate success.

A well resourced school doesn't remove systematic and institutional bias. Why would you think it would?

It's institutionalized bias in favor of poor, black schools.

Sooner or later you're going to have to admit that if you want to help poor minorities, then they need to meet you half way and participate in the academic process.


You're clearly not a poor black student.

/minorities do NOT have an easier time
 
2012-10-12 01:22:36 PM

ChuDogg: super_grass: ChuDogg: bhcompy: ChuDogg: kaduh: ChuDogg: Also you might want to check your history, and no not the white washed version you probably learned in some Lilly white suburb.

Africans had some of the most glorious empires the world had seen. From the Mali empire, Kush, aksum, Egyptians, hell even ancient Israel was black. Whites in Europe were sitting around in straw huts smearing blood and feces on their bodies while Africans were building pyramids and empires.

It was only until whites stole inventions and weapons from colored folks they went on a raping and pillaging spree around the entire planet that literally not a single non white person was not a victim, and their descendants are still reeling from centuries of oppression.

Whites are literally the most evil group of people. Of course not all whites are like this, some of them apologize for it and are willing to step aside for colored folks. But most of you think nothing of keeping this oppression going on today, even blaming victims of your oppression for their sealed fate. I can't wait for the date whites find themself a minority and have to step aside for the brown peoples again. And we can go on and build our glorious global empires on the ruins of colonialist capatilast nations.

Though some of you I think are gonna go all holocaust again before letting nature take its due course.

Shut up, Honkey.

Im Cherokee, though I probably pass for black to some of you white folks. Not like that helps any.

That's a lot of derp from someone who's a white man.

/yes, you're DNA says you're caucasian

Implying DNA proves race. I see racist psuedo science has come a long way since phrenology.

THAT'S RIGHT BROTHA-MAN!

REALITY HAS A RACIST BIAS AGAINST NON WHITES AND NON ASIANS!

George Washington - Black, Gengis Khan - Black, Abraham Lincoln - Black

But you'd never know this if we let racist-add biologists and scientists do their racist-ass "tests" and "experiments".

Your not too far off. Modern feminist critical theory suggests that the scientific method, long argued to be entirely neutral and subjective. In fact, its merely a product of our standpoint and subject to the same biases and bigotry of the observor. Since modern science is practically dominated by the white male patriarchy it becomes a tool of oppression toward women and non white minorities.

This is the current consensus amongst academia, and yet another reason affirmitive action is needed. Until whites in positions of power are reduced to their porportionate levels of the global population (about 8%) we will always be plagued by white supremacy.

Lookup standpoint theory or anything by Tim Wise for more info on that.


I love how feminists attach "theory to their bullshiat". It gives their nonsense an air of legitemacy. Never mind that they don't practice anything like actual science.
 
2012-10-12 01:24:47 PM
Quotes should have been around "theory"
 
2012-10-12 01:24:55 PM
Affirmative action is clearly a terrible system because this one black dude I knew was against it.
 
2012-10-12 01:25:35 PM

Joe Blowme: víctimas theory
Losing the Race: Self-Sabotage in Black America
Author?

Looks like a racist

consensus does not equal axiom. See Flat Earth


I just said its the consensus in academia, that's not insignificant. Knee jerk reactionaries aren't going to change that.
 
2012-10-12 01:40:26 PM

Bontesla: bhcompy: Bontesla: bhcompy: ha-ha-guy: Affirmative action is just a band aid for the real issue, how public schools are funded. It's basically "Sorry you grew up in an impoverished area with no funding for the school and as such had almost no hope of scoring decently on the ACT/SAT. Here have some bonus points on an application to a college you'll most likely fail out of, we're cool now right?".

Fix the root of the problem, don't just toss students 4 years at a better school to make up for K-12 neglect.

California doesn't fund in such a manner, yet it produces the same results(poor urban districts actually get more money per student than more affluent suburbs in general, and way more than middle class suburbs). So don't give me that bullshiat. The problem isn't the schools, it's the people, it's the culture, it's the acceptance of anything but success. Asian dad meme is a stereotype based in fact, but Asian dad meme doesn't have to be an Asian dad, it can be any dad, and that will generate success.

A well resourced school doesn't remove systematic and institutional bias. Why would you think it would?

What bias would that be? Whites are a minority of faculty at LAUSD schools.

Numerical minority isn't the same thing as having a minority status.

Why would you assume that bias must be driven by white instructors?


Minority is minority.

Regardless, answer the question if it's something else.
 
2012-10-12 01:56:27 PM

TimonC346: Silly Jesus: Affirmative action actually harms minorities. They get in over their heads, so to speak, and have a lower rate of graduation from more prestigious schools that they otherwise would not have qualified for.

Source: NPR

I'm sure that's probably true--the problem is the alternative--which is zero representation of anyone but European or Asian descent at any high end American schools. Which then throws in our face AND highlights institutionalized racism all at the same time.

Considering where these kids are starting from, Affirmative Action is sort of like a necessary evil. It is inherently unfair to make up for the societal unfairness of simply being born a different color. I'm not sure if that bodes well for it being constitutional, but I certainly support it.


So it is your RACIST view that people of color are just not capable of competing academically.

Who is the racist here?
 
2012-10-12 01:59:11 PM

ChuDogg: super_grass: ChuDogg: bhcompy: ChuDogg: kaduh: ChuDogg: Also you might want to check your history, and no not the white washed version you probably learned in some Lilly white suburb.

Africans had some of the most glorious empires the world had seen. From the Mali empire, Kush, aksum, Egyptians, hell even ancient Israel was black. Whites in Europe were sitting around in straw huts smearing blood and feces on their bodies while Africans were building pyramids and empires.

It was only until whites stole inventions and weapons from colored folks they went on a raping and pillaging spree around the entire planet that literally not a single non white person was not a victim, and their descendants are still reeling from centuries of oppression.

Whites are literally the most evil group of people. Of course not all whites are like this, some of them apologize for it and are willing to step aside for colored folks. But most of you think nothing of keeping this oppression going on today, even blaming victims of your oppression for their sealed fate. I can't wait for the date whites find themself a minority and have to step aside for the brown peoples again. And we can go on and build our glorious global empires on the ruins of colonialist capatilast nations.

Though some of you I think are gonna go all holocaust again before letting nature take its due course.

Shut up, Honkey.

Im Cherokee, though I probably pass for black to some of you white folks. Not like that helps any.

That's a lot of derp from someone who's a white man.

/yes, you're DNA says you're caucasian

Implying DNA proves race. I see racist psuedo science has come a long way since phrenology.

THAT'S RIGHT BROTHA-MAN!

REALITY HAS A RACIST BIAS AGAINST NON WHITES AND NON ASIANS!

George Washington - Black, Gengis Khan - Black, Abraham Lincoln - Black

But you'd never know this if we let racist-add biologists and scientists do their racist-ass "tests" and "experiments".

Your not too far off. Modern f ...

 
2012-10-12 02:02:37 PM

taurusowner: Or....we could just judge people not be the color of their skin but by the content of their charter, or in this case, mind.


Yeah, well I'm old enough to remember when schools weren't integrated. And I've sat in on racist discussions by my fellow honky crackers within the last week where they opined that the REAL problem America faces is that white males don't hold all positions of power.

We should give some brothers a break. Really.

/Very hard to keep some of my old friends as friends.
 
2012-10-12 02:04:38 PM

bhcompy: Bontesla: bhcompy: Bontesla: bhcompy: ha-ha-guy: Affirmative action is just a band aid for the real issue, how public schools are funded. It's basically "Sorry you grew up in an impoverished area with no funding for the school and as such had almost no hope of scoring decently on the ACT/SAT. Here have some bonus points on an application to a college you'll most likely fail out of, we're cool now right?".

Fix the root of the problem, don't just toss students 4 years at a better school to make up for K-12 neglect.

California doesn't fund in such a manner, yet it produces the same results(poor urban districts actually get more money per student than more affluent suburbs in general, and way more than middle class suburbs). So don't give me that bullshiat. The problem isn't the schools, it's the people, it's the culture, it's the acceptance of anything but success. Asian dad meme is a stereotype based in fact, but Asian dad meme doesn't have to be an Asian dad, it can be any dad, and that will generate success.

A well resourced school doesn't remove systematic and institutional bias. Why would you think it would?

What bias would that be? Whites are a minority of faculty at LAUSD schools.

Numerical minority isn't the same thing as having a minority status.

Why would you assume that bias must be driven by white instructors?

Minority is minority.

Regardless, answer the question if it's something else.


It's not the same. You're being daft. Or you're simply an idiot.
Answered this question upthread. Ctrl+F Bontesla.
 
2012-10-12 02:40:49 PM

ghare: taurusowner: Or....we could just judge people not be the color of their skin but by the content of their charter, or in this case, mind.

Yeah, well I'm old enough to remember when schools weren't integrated. And I've sat in on racist discussions by my fellow honky crackers within the last week where they opined that the REAL problem America faces is that white males don't hold all positions of power.

We should give some brothers a break. Really.

/Very hard to keep some of my old friends as friends.


racists come in all colors
 
2012-10-12 03:26:15 PM

ChuDogg: Joe Blowme: víctimas theory
Losing the Race: Self-Sabotage in Black America
Author?

Looks like a racist

consensus does not equal axiom. See Flat Earth

I just said its the consensus in feminist and ethnic studies academia, that's not so it's completely insignificant. Knee jerk reactionaries Their minds are completely closed, so facts aren't going to change that.

 
2012-10-12 03:57:29 PM

Silly Jesus: Here's a thought. Life isn't fair and we can never artificially make it that way. Some people are born losers, some people are born winners. This is how it has always been and how it will always be despite the "best" efforts of bleeding hearts and self congratulating do-gooders.


You sound like you like tea.

You know how you get over being born a loser? Have a rich daddy. George W. Bush is walking, breathing proof of this, as are so many other successful bozos who couldn't pour piss out of boot if the instructions were written on the heel.
 
2012-10-12 03:58:32 PM
Hey entrepreneurial oppressed butthurt peckerwoods, figure out a way to make money off of butthurt. This thread is a gold mine.
 
2012-10-12 04:49:02 PM

Silly Jesus: Affirmative action actually harms minorities. They get in over their heads, so to speak, and have a lower rate of graduation from more prestigious schools that they otherwise would not have qualified for.


True that I have a friend who went through something like that as a Legacy Admission he flunked out his first year and had to take a year off where he smoked a bunch of pot and did remedial study.

Hint: In private schools legacy admissions are around 10% of the student body. While affirmative action and disadvantaged admits are 5%.
 
2012-10-12 06:05:57 PM

ChuDogg: Gdalescrboz: ChuDogg

Do you realize people like you are the primary reason for rascism today? You have caused a backlash against minorities with your attempts at white guilt. You can scream and biatch and moan all you want about how I, a 26 year old white male whos voting block put the first minority into the oval office, owe you, a person who is distantly related to people who were discriminated against, something. fark you for holding minorities back

Lol @ at this argument again "I'm only racist because people like you made me racist!". I know its so tough being white and being reminded of your privelege every now and then.

I've only argued that in an egalitarian society white males would make up positions of power that reflect their porportion of the people around the globe. How could anybody but a racist disagree with that?



I don't understand your rationale for claiming that the worldwide proportion of a particular race should determine what percentage of the positions of power members of that race should fill in a particular country. 56% of the world is Asian - does that mean that 56% of Sweden's Parliament and Cabinet ministers should be Asian?
 
2012-10-12 08:34:27 PM

ScottRiqui: ChuDogg: Gdalescrboz: ChuDogg

Do you realize people like you are the primary reason for rascism today? You have caused a backlash against minorities with your attempts at white guilt. You can scream and biatch and moan all you want about how I, a 26 year old white male whos voting block put the first minority into the oval office, owe you, a person who is distantly related to people who were discriminated against, something. fark you for holding minorities back

Lol @ at this argument again "I'm only racist because people like you made me racist!". I know its so tough being white and being reminded of your privelege every now and then.

I've only argued that in an egalitarian society white males would make up positions of power that reflect their porportion of the people around the globe. How could anybody but a racist disagree with that?


I don't understand your rationale for claiming that the worldwide proportion of a particular race should determine what percentage of the positions of power members of that race should fill in a particular country. 56% of the world is Asian - does that mean that 56% of Sweden's Parliament and Cabinet ministers should be Asian?


He's saying Asians don't have their own governmental systems therefore they must be represented across the world.
 
2012-10-12 08:54:56 PM
i49.tinypic.com 

i48.tinypic.com
 
2012-10-12 11:42:24 PM
meyerkev /Also, are they hiring? I'm graduating this December, and am still looking for a job (though I got cold-called by a recruiter while I was finishing this sentence. Lulz).

His company is SAIC and they're pretty much always hiring. They got some bad press recently but overall it's a good company. At any company, it also depends on the people you're working with on your project.

There are a lot of programming jobs with defense contractors (or so-called Beltway Bandits) in Northern Virginia and they're always hiring. It's the same with the large consulting companies like Booz Allen. It's a relatively expensive area to live, but there are lots of opportunities and it's pretty easy for technical people to get jobs.

Most jobs with defense contractors require a security clearance, the level depends on the project. You can't apply for a clearance until you have the job (yeah, I know, Catch 22, tell it to the FBI). So if there's anything in your background that would hold up a security clearance, take care of it.

Put your resume on Monster and recruiters will start calling. Usually you work for the recruiting company for six months and then you're hired by the company.

Good luck.
 
2012-10-12 11:52:10 PM
I know a girl that didn't get into Princeton because of affirmative action. She's white. It was given to a black girl. It worked out since The University of Chicago covered her entire tuition plus gave her $5K a semester to join their college. It still isn't right to not get into a college just because of the non-color of her skin. Affirmative action is evil.
 
2012-10-13 09:50:30 AM

JackieRabbit: Silly Jesus: Here's a thought. Life isn't fair and we can never artificially make it that way. Some people are born losers, some people are born winners. This is how it has always been and how it will always be despite the "best" efforts of bleeding hearts and self congratulating do-gooders.

You sound like you like tea.

You know how you get over being born a loser? Have a rich daddy. George W. Bush is walking, breathing proof of this, as are so many other successful bozos who couldn't pour piss out of boot if the instructions were written on the heel.


Yes, because this is the only way to improve your lot in life.

/You sound like you like Karl
 
2012-10-13 09:51:11 AM

gibbon1: Silly Jesus: Affirmative action actually harms minorities. They get in over their heads, so to speak, and have a lower rate of graduation from more prestigious schools that they otherwise would not have qualified for.

True that I have a friend who went through something like that as a Legacy Admission he flunked out his first year and had to take a year off where he smoked a bunch of pot and did remedial study.

Hint: In private schools legacy admissions are around 10% of the student body. While affirmative action and disadvantaged admits are 5%.


And?
 
2012-10-13 12:22:02 PM

Silly Jesus: JackieRabbit: Silly Jesus: Here's a thought. Life isn't fair and we can never artificially make it that way. Some people are born losers, some people are born winners. This is how it has always been and how it will always be despite the "best" efforts of bleeding hearts and self congratulating do-gooders.

You sound like you like tea.

You know how you get over being born a loser? Have a rich daddy. George W. Bush is walking, breathing proof of this, as are so many other successful bozos who couldn't pour piss out of boot if the instructions were written on the heel.

Yes, because this is the only way to improve your lot in life.

/You sound like you like Karl


3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-10-13 07:29:40 PM

Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.


Yet if you took a poor white person and a poor black person, coached them equally on what to say and what to do in an interview, put them in identical suits and ties with identical resumes (except for their names, Bob and Akeem) and sent them off to apply for the same jobs, which do you think would be more likely to get that job... or even be called in for the interview?

Don't bother to answer, here's some info from an ongoing court case: Link

It has only been within my lifetime that black people have been able to vote without the danger of being lynched, drink from any water fountain they liked, shop anywhere they wished, go to any movie theater they wanted to, buy a house in any neighborhood they could afford, and sit anywhere on the bus there was an open seat, and I'm not that old. Plenty of people around, including my father, who remember and have experience with the time before. It is why he packed up his two infant sons and his 4 months pregnant wife and moved from North Carolina to Pennsylvania. I experienced some of it myself as a child, and I remember.
It's not as if discrimination by white people against minorities simply vanished in the 60s and 70s, never to return. It is still here, now, in forms both subtle and gross, conscious and subconscious.

Being poor puts you at a disadvantage in America, there's no doubt of that. But would the poor white want to change places with his financially-challenged black neighbor? Even more doubtful. Black people have had that added disadvantage since they were brought over as slaves, as chattel, with no more value than livestock, for hundreds of years and then treated like non-persons for over 100 years after slavery was officially ended.

A little bit of help for only one generation will never undo the damage that this and the subsequent denial of rights, of opportunity, and of personhood has done and continues to do to an entire group of people, but it is better than nothing. 

As for this supreme court case... no, academic achievement cannot and should not be the only factor in college admission. If I were to choose between two people, one who had the better schools in the wealthier part of town, whose parents were able to afford cello lessons, and who grew up with all the advantage that being a non-minority entails, versus the kid who had none of that and was knocked further down the socioeconomic ladder because they were a minority... I choose the kid who didn't get the breaks every time.

Why? Because I regard a person who earns 3.5 GPA from a neighborhood school which might be on lockdown once or twice a month due to a gang shooting much more highly than a person who earns a 4.0 from a school where a student's biggest problem might be whether to match the color of their prom dress to the car daddy bought them for their 16th birthday.

And here's some interesting info abut the plaintiff in this case, Abigail Fisher.
In blaming affirmative action for that denial letter, you have failed to mention that you graduated number 82 in a class of 674 with a 3.59 grade point average on a 4.0 scale, which alienated you from the automatic admissions bunch. You conveniently omit that you scored an 1180 on your SAT, which is way below UT's average, so that automatically diminished your chances of being accepted.
"Even if Abigail Fisher had received a perfect Personal Achievement Index score she would not have been admitted ... because her Academic Index was simply not high enough. Fisher would not have been admitted, no matter what her race."


Sounds to me like a spoiled brat who didn't get what she wanted, not someone who had actually been wronged by this institution
 
2012-10-13 08:52:27 PM

legion_of_doo: I was on the hiring council at a major technology company, looking for qualified software people.

we made damn sure we were hiring a diverse staff, and we farking scoured the applicant pool to make sure our bases were all covered... blacks, women, native American, people with disabilities, etc.

I don't doubt there is some idiosyncratic racism out there, but it doesn't happen in the big firms because we don't need to waste legal teams on retarded bull shiat.



And there is the question.

Did your company "scour the applicant pool" because they actually wanted a diverse workforce, or did they look for minorities in an effort to avoid potential lawsuits?
In other words, if minorities are to be hired, why not just do it on your own initiative without the threat of a lawsuit? Is it really that difficult to do?
 
2012-10-15 08:13:00 AM

rewind2846: no, academic achievement cannot and should not be the only factor in college admission. If I were to choose between two people, one who had the better schools in the wealthier part of town, whose parents were able to afford cello lessons, and who grew up with all the advantage that being a non-minority entails, versus the kid who had none of that and was knocked further down the socioeconomic ladder because they were a minority... I choose the kid who didn't get the breaks every time.

Why? Because I regard a person who earns 3.5 GPA from a neighborhood school which might be on lockdown once or twice a month due to a gang shooting much more highly than a person who earns a 4.0 from a school where a student's biggest problem might be whether to match the color of their prom dress to the car daddy bought them for their 16th birthday


You aren't dumb enough to believe all white kids live in the cello lesson world you describe and that all black kids go to crime ridden schools, so why support a program that only makes sense if that is the case?
 
2012-10-15 10:42:26 AM

liam76: You aren't dumb enough to believe all white kids live in the cello lesson world you describe and that all black kids go to crime ridden schools, so why support a program that only makes sense if that is the case?


Is that the way the process works at UT?

Why would you think so, when the facts are readily available?

If not, why bring it up? It's not relevant to the case being discussed.
 
2012-10-15 02:57:11 PM

Deucednuisance: liam76: You aren't dumb enough to believe all white kids live in the cello lesson world you describe and that all black kids go to crime ridden schools, so why support a program that only makes sense if that is the case?

Is that the way the process works at UT?


If you are giving preference based on race then they are acting on that assumption if they think their system is fair.


If not, why bring it up? It's not relevant to the case being discussed.

Maybe you should take that up with the person who brought up that argument in support of AA?
 
2012-10-15 03:43:48 PM

liam76: If you are giving preference based on race then they are acting on that assumption if they think their system is fair.


Look, if you can't be arsed to actually find out what the policy you argue against so vociferously against actually is, why don't you just say so?
 
2012-10-15 08:02:14 PM

Deucednuisance: liam76: If you are giving preference based on race then they are acting on that assumption if they think their system is fair.

Look, if you can't be arsed to actually find out what the policy you argue against so vociferously against actually is, why don't you just say so?


Unless you are going to prove that I (and the article) am wrong about it being a policy that gives preference based then what I am arguing is correct.
 
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