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(Reuters)   Supreme Court is divided over an affirmative action case involving college admissions. Come on, why shouldn't minorities have the same opportunity to get mired hopelessly deep in college loan debt like anyone else?   (reuters.com) divider line 300
    More: Followup, Justice Kennedy, supreme courts, University and college admissions, Justice Antonin Scalia, Solicitor General of the United States, strict scrutiny, Stephen Breyer, Chief Justice John Roberts  
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3916 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Oct 2012 at 7:45 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-12 10:02:26 AM

MycroftHolmes: serial_crusher: Just curious, how old are you? Because it doesn't sound like you're (accurately) describing the environment that present-day college applicants grew up in. What privileges do poor white kids get that poor black kids don't?

Are you honestly saying that if you take wo kids, one white, one black, and dress them up the same, they will be treated the same by society, whether it is interacting with police, applying for a job, etc.? I don't buy this.


Absolutely. The black kid might have the occasional run in with a racist idiot, but if he's going to get hung up on that, his problem goes farther than just his skin color.
 
2012-10-12 10:03:11 AM

PallMall: I just had an epiphany that would solve the issue at hand....

College applications should have no identifying information on them. Only your grades, test scores, etc.

No names, no DOBs, no addresses, just a randomly-generated ID number. When the applicant shows up for class, you'll be able to see who was worthy.

That's both equal and fair.


In the mid-eighties I had a white, female high school English teacher who participated in an experiment that dictated that no identifying information could appear on about half the work we handed in for a grade. A few weeks in, she explained to each of her classes that she had always thought she was fair minded and utterly opposed to racism. She got a little weepy as she explained that the results of the experiment showed that when grades from the work with identifying information were compared to the grades from the work that could not be connected to an individual she had consistently given lower grades to certain groups of people when they were identified than when they were not.

She made an apology to each of her classes. Then she made it a permanent policy that all work turned in for a grade had to be labeled with only a numerical code. When she returned graded material, she stepped out of the room while we retrieved the paper that belonged to us so that she wouldn't know which code belonged to which student.

If all the world made the sincere effort she did, we maybe wouldn't need affirmative action.
 
2012-10-12 10:03:12 AM
As someone who went to a low class, black and hispanic majority school, I must say that the best way to get minorities into college would be a reform of our public education system. It's a personal anecdote, yes, but I know that more than a few fellow classmates had any sort of desire to learn crushed by the soul-killing hellhole that is Bloom High School.

www.trulia.com
Blue=Bloom High School
Light blue=District
Grey=Illinois Average

The place is full of teachers who don't care, teachers that are racists, administration that are only there because of political connections, and students that don't want to be there. Young teachers, ones that generally do care, are soon driven out of this school
 
2012-10-12 10:03:23 AM

serial_crusher: ChuDogg: Private_Citizen: If they really want to give people a leg up, don't base it on skin color, base it on economic status. Being poor makes it hard to succeed, regardless of your race. If a disadvantaged student can score as well as a privildged one, you know which one has the talent and the drive - and which one coasted.

The problem with this "logic" is that poor white boys who complain about this just didn't take advantage of the priveleges and opportunties that were offered to them. At every stage a life of helping hand was offered in school and work, yet they either partied or were just lazy. Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

Now I'm supposed to be told by some white priveleged dude that he had it worse than the ghetto cuz his momma was poor too? Lol

Just curious, how old are you? Because it doesn't sound like you're (accurately) describing the environment that present-day college applicants grew up in. What privileges do poor white kids get that poor black kids don't?


Jesus christ man, you gotta be kidding me?

By ackknowlidging the racism inherent in society you are defaco supporting that racism. By not ackknowlidging privelges you are inherently supporting priveleges.

This is why affirmative action is needed. If you simply deny something is there it doesn't go away. It stays there.

So if you want racism tobstay there, well just keep denying it. But stay mad when peoples of all colors call you a racist white boy. Every single poster in this thread sniveling at a little opportunity given to blacks is racist. Attempting to deny racism is racist. Take a sociology class or two I don't have time to educate you on every facet of structuralist society.

Stay mad.
 
2012-10-12 10:03:24 AM
"Screw you!" should be made the new American national motto.
 
2012-10-12 10:03:27 AM

serial_crusher: MycroftHolmes: serial_crusher: Just curious, how old are you? Because it doesn't sound like you're (accurately) describing the environment that present-day college applicants grew up in. What privileges do poor white kids get that poor black kids don't?

Are you honestly saying that if you take wo kids, one white, one black, and dress them up the same, they will be treated the same by society, whether it is interacting with police, applying for a job, etc.? I don't buy this.

Absolutely. The black kid might have the occasional run in with a racist idiot, but if he's going to get hung up on that, his problem goes farther than just his skin color.


You aren't a minority, are you? Specifically, you aren't black, are you?
 
2012-10-12 10:04:15 AM

MycroftHolmes: Silly Jesus: MycroftHolmes: Frank N Stein: ChuDogg: Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

[oag.org image 721x475]

Yes, the insatiable appetite for educations that blacks have is undeniable.

LOL. You beat down a group, put them at a disadvantage, and then tell them it is their fault when they can't break the cycle that you put them in. Well done. People like you are what convince me that, despite be clumsy and heavy handed, programs like affirmative action are essential.

You have to want to improve your lot in life in order for it to actually improve. Drive through your local projects in the middle of the day and look at all of the people who could be out applying for a job or working or doing anything other than what they are doing.

There is some element of truth in that, but it goes deeper than that. Look at the people who have been unemployed during the recession, a lot of them have given up hope after 2 years of failure.

Now, imagine your whole life, every time you try, society, in some way, shape, or form, tells you that you can't succeed, you belong in the projects. Eventually, you start believing it, even become proud of it as a way of defending your ego and become part of the system to perpetuate the cycle.

The culture of projects and ghettos is a symptom, not a cause, of the problem. It is part of the cycle. Break the cycle, and then everyone will at least have a fighting chance.


You sound like you want to do away with the Democratic plantations.
 
2012-10-12 10:04:42 AM

MycroftHolmes: Now, imagine your whole life, every time you try, society, in some way, shape, or form, tells you that you can't succeed, you belong in the projects.


LOL. You're dumb.
 
2012-10-12 10:04:49 AM

Lunaville: Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.

Your statement makes a certain amount of sense. When I was very young I opposed affirmative action. One of the smartest people at my high school was a black female. I thought, obviously, anyone would trip over themselves to accept her to their college or hire her. I thought affirmative action was insulting to people like her. Then I began to work at actual jobs versus, for instance, babysitting.

By the time I was 23 years old, I had done a 180. I had worked at places where I was not allowed to even provide an application to black people. I was required to say the business was out of applications. Resumes received from black people were not even kept on file. They were tossed directly into the trash. Funny thing about jobs like that, they manage to make the "acceptable" people allowed to work in such a place perfectly miserable. An owner/manager that dedicated to acting unjustly and inequitably certainly isn't going to treat the people s/he does hire fairly or respectfully.

I concede that other, non-race based, discrimination happens. After picking up a little experience and learning to stand my ground a bit, I worked in a retail store where I refused to have anything at all to do with applications. Personnel accepting applications had been directed to code the application indicating the race of the applicant and whether the applicant was fat. The store set a limited number of positions that could be held by non-white people and would not exceed that number. If you were fat, however, you weren't getting hired, period.

When you are young you imagine that people strive to be as intelligent, logical, and fair mi ...


You're talking too much sense in this thread. The standard response is some knee-jerk, high-and-mighty, butthurt and distorting statement about how AA is an offense to god and flag, making sure to avoid looking at society at large and the still powerful forces AA was meants to address - admittedly, as with any large-scale issue imperfectly.

But no, almost everyone in this thread sounds like the young lady who brought this suit (her co-plaintiff has abandoned the case), a butthurt, whiny little thing the U of Texas has pointed out would not have made it into their school regardless. But apparently this was too much for the little snowflake to take and she had to cover her scholastic inadequacies by trying to take down a program that is helping hundreds of disadvantaged students. She is a buffoon for bringing this case.
 
2012-10-12 10:05:30 AM

Silly Jesus: MycroftHolmes: Frank N Stein: ChuDogg: Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

[oag.org image 721x475]

Yes, the insatiable appetite for educations that blacks have is undeniable.

LOL. You beat down a group, put them at a disadvantage, and then tell them it is their fault when they can't break the cycle that you put them in. Well done. People like you are what convince me that, despite be clumsy and heavy handed, programs like affirmative action are essential.

You have to want to improve your lot in life in order for it to actually improve. Drive through your local projects in the middle of the day and look at all of the people who could be out applying for a job or working or doing anything other than what they are doing.


Here's the thing - when you can make "minimum wage" on disability - I don't blame anyone who decides not to work at Walmart or Amazon. What incentive does anyone have to work your butt off when you will only ever make the same amount as someone not working? Especially when you have a 3rd grade reading level and an incomplete high school education - your options are limited.

When you decide that criminal activity can be even more profitable - I can fully sympathize and understand how that looks like an attractive alternative.

Want to clean up the projects? We start with great education, a focus on college, and enough resources to make up for a single parent household in which one parent is working multiple jobs.
 
2012-10-12 10:07:57 AM

Lunaville: In the mid-eighties I had a white, female high school English teacher who participated in an experiment that dictated that no identifying information could appear on about half the work we handed in for a grade. A few weeks in, she explained to each of her classes that she had always thought she was fair minded and utterly opposed to racism. She got a little weepy as she explained that the results of the experiment showed that when grades from the work with identifying information were compared to the grades from the work that could not be connected to an individual she had consistently given lower grades to certain groups of people when they were identified than when they were not.

She made an apology to each of her classes. Then she made it a permanent policy that all work turned in for a grade had to be labeled with only a numerical code. When she returned graded material, she stepped out of the room while we retrieved the paper that belonged to us so that she wouldn't know which code belonged to which student.

If all the world made the sincere effort she did, we maybe wouldn't need affirmative action.


I think it should be mandatory. Subconsciously, most of us are prejudiced in one way or another. May not be racism specifically, but we're definitely prejudiced toward something.

Random codes as ID removes the common prejudices and bigoted frame of mind. Well, unless you hate numbers or random alphanumeric strings.
 
2012-10-12 10:08:04 AM

Joe Blowme: Legalized racism, pure and simple.


Considering we had it the opposite direction for hundreds of years, white people won't have anything to complain about until about 2360.
 
2012-10-12 10:08:40 AM
 
2012-10-12 10:08:53 AM

MycroftHolmes: Specifically, you aren't black, are you?


IN MY PANTS!!!!

/amidoinitrite?
 
2012-10-12 10:09:03 AM

bhcompy: ha-ha-guy: Affirmative action is just a band aid for the real issue, how public schools are funded. It's basically "Sorry you grew up in an impoverished area with no funding for the school and as such had almost no hope of scoring decently on the ACT/SAT. Here have some bonus points on an application to a college you'll most likely fail out of, we're cool now right?".

Fix the root of the problem, don't just toss students 4 years at a better school to make up for K-12 neglect.

California doesn't fund in such a manner, yet it produces the same results(poor urban districts actually get more money per student than more affluent suburbs in general, and way more than middle class suburbs). So don't give me that bullshiat. The problem isn't the schools, it's the people, it's the culture, it's the acceptance of anything but success. Asian dad meme is a stereotype based in fact, but Asian dad meme doesn't have to be an Asian dad, it can be any dad, and that will generate success.


A well resourced school doesn't remove systematic and institutional bias. Why would you think it would?
 
2012-10-12 10:11:03 AM

taurusowner: Or....we could just judge people not be the color of their skin but by the content of their charter, or in this case, mind.


Judge people on the content of their mind?? What are you? The thought police?!?!
 
2012-10-12 10:11:48 AM

Bontesla: Silly Jesus: MycroftHolmes: Frank N Stein: ChuDogg: Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

[oag.org image 721x475]

Yes, the insatiable appetite for educations that blacks have is undeniable.

LOL. You beat down a group, put them at a disadvantage, and then tell them it is their fault when they can't break the cycle that you put them in. Well done. People like you are what convince me that, despite be clumsy and heavy handed, programs like affirmative action are essential.

You have to want to improve your lot in life in order for it to actually improve. Drive through your local projects in the middle of the day and look at all of the people who could be out applying for a job or working or doing anything other than what they are doing.

Here's the thing - when you can make "minimum wage" on disability - I don't blame anyone who decides not to work at Walmart or Amazon. What incentive does anyone have to work your butt off when you will only ever make the same amount as someone not working? Especially when you have a 3rd grade reading level and an incomplete high school education - your options are limited.

When you decide that criminal activity can be even more profitable - I can fully sympathize and understand how that looks like an attractive alternative.

Want to clean up the projects? We start with great education, a focus on college, and enough resources to make up for a single parent household in which one parent is working multiple jobs.


Or take away the giveaway programs. Hunger is an awfully good incentive for finding a job and bettering yourself.

/but but they will just start stealing to get food... Fine, shoot them. Seriously. If you are going to steal because you are too lazy or stupid to work, then you contribute nothing to society and don't deserve a place in it.
 
2012-10-12 10:11:49 AM

Bontesla: bhcompy: ha-ha-guy: Affirmative action is just a band aid for the real issue, how public schools are funded. It's basically "Sorry you grew up in an impoverished area with no funding for the school and as such had almost no hope of scoring decently on the ACT/SAT. Here have some bonus points on an application to a college you'll most likely fail out of, we're cool now right?".

Fix the root of the problem, don't just toss students 4 years at a better school to make up for K-12 neglect.

California doesn't fund in such a manner, yet it produces the same results(poor urban districts actually get more money per student than more affluent suburbs in general, and way more than middle class suburbs). So don't give me that bullshiat. The problem isn't the schools, it's the people, it's the culture, it's the acceptance of anything but success. Asian dad meme is a stereotype based in fact, but Asian dad meme doesn't have to be an Asian dad, it can be any dad, and that will generate success.

A well resourced school doesn't remove systematic and institutional bias. Why would you think it would?


It's institutionalized bias in favor of poor, black schools.

Sooner or later you're going to have to admit that if you want to help poor minorities, then they need to meet you half way and participate in the academic process.
 
2012-10-12 10:13:35 AM

PallMall: Race, ethnicity, color, religion, etc should have NOTHING to do with getting in to college. Affirmative action hurts otherwise qualified candidates from getting there.

College admissions should be based on scores, and the prospective student's competence.


There should be a better procedure for selections. There are kids with good test scores who are going to get there and drink their way through 2 semesters before dropping out the same as there are kids with lower test scores who will get there and bust their asses to graduate cum laude.

Basing college admissions on scores and grades only assumes all scores and grades from all sources are standardized.
 
2012-10-12 10:14:00 AM

Tricky Chicken: Lunaville: Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.

Your statement makes a certain amount of sense. When I was very young I opposed affirmative action. One of the smartest people at my high school was a black female. I thought, obviously, anyone would trip over themselves to accept her to their college or hire her. I thought affirmative action was insulting to people like her. Then I began to work at actual jobs versus, for instance, babysitting.

By the time I was 23 years old, I had done a 180. I had worked at places where I was not allowed to even provide an application to black people. I was required to say the business was out of applications. Resumes received from black people were not even kept on file. They were tossed directly into the trash. Funny thing about jobs like that, they manage to make the "acceptable" people allowed to work in such a place perfectly miserable. An owner/manager that dedicated to acting unjustly and inequitably certainly isn't going to treat the people s/he does hire fairly or respectfully.

I concede that other, non-race based, discrimination happens. After picking up a little experience and learning to stand my ground a bit, I worked in a retail store where I refused to have anything at all to do with applications. Personnel accepting applications had been directed to code the application indicating the race of the applicant and whether the applicant was fat. The store set a limited number of positions that could be held by non-white people and would not exceed that number. If you were fat, however, you weren't getting hired, period.

When you are young you imagine that people strive to be as intelligent, logical, ...


Well, I whined ineffectively about it to management. I would like to say I took some deeply courageous stand, but I didn't. When I realized I couldn't stand to work places that actively discriminated, my idea of protesting was to line up another job, then, resign. It's not exactly taking a grenade to save your buddies. Looking back on it with the benefit of hindsight, there is probably some government agency I might have reported the situation to. There had to have been something more effective than saying "I don't like this and I'm hiding in the stockroom when applicants come in from now on!"
 
2012-10-12 10:17:13 AM

Silly Jesus: ChuDogg:


dneiwert.blogspot.com
 
2012-10-12 10:18:17 AM

Silly Jesus: Bontesla: Silly Jesus: MycroftHolmes: Frank N Stein: ChuDogg: Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

[oag.org image 721x475]

Yes, the insatiable appetite for educations that blacks have is undeniable.

LOL. You beat down a group, put them at a disadvantage, and then tell them it is their fault when they can't break the cycle that you put them in. Well done. People like you are what convince me that, despite be clumsy and heavy handed, programs like affirmative action are essential.

You have to want to improve your lot in life in order for it to actually improve. Drive through your local projects in the middle of the day and look at all of the people who could be out applying for a job or working or doing anything other than what they are doing.

Here's the thing - when you can make "minimum wage" on disability - I don't blame anyone who decides not to work at Walmart or Amazon. What incentive does anyone have to work your butt off when you will only ever make the same amount as someone not working? Especially when you have a 3rd grade reading level and an incomplete high school education - your options are limited.

When you decide that criminal activity can be even more profitable - I can fully sympathize and understand how that looks like an attractive alternative.

Want to clean up the projects? We start with great education, a focus on college, and enough resources to make up for a single parent household in which one parent is working multiple jobs.

Or take away the giveaway programs. Hunger is an awfully good incentive for finding a job and bettering yourself.

/but but they will just start stealing to get food... Fine, shoot them. Seriously. If you are going to steal because you are too lazy or stupid to work, then you contribute nothing to society and don't deserve a place in it.


Because a starving applicant has the resources to obtain adequate employment? They can afford clothes for the interview, access to resume builders and printers, and can perform comparably to well-fed candidates? Right.

Certainly the poor nutritional diet wouldn't result in bad teeth and skin. Definitely not.

Certainly the starving candidate can wash their clothes prior to each interview. Can afford transportation to the interview.

Do you know what's more motivating than starvation? Hope, opportunity, and equality.
 
2012-10-12 10:20:39 AM

ha-ha-guy: Affirmative action is just a band aid for the real issue, how public schools are funded. It's basically "Sorry you grew up in an impoverished area with no funding for the school and as such had almost no hope of scoring decently on the ACT/SAT. Here have some bonus points on an application to a college you'll most likely fail out of, we're cool now right?".

Fix the root of the problem, don't just toss students 4 years at a better school to make up for K-12 neglect.


This is an excellent point. The inequities that continue to exist within the public school system are outrageous. And I think, with the current drive toward embracing for-profit, corporate charter schools, the gaps are going to get worse not better. I'm all for public charters, even scholarships to non-profit private schools, but the primary goal of a for-profit entity is always going to be profit.
 
2012-10-12 10:23:31 AM

dustygrimp: There should be a better procedure for selections. There are kids with good test scores who are going to get there and drink their way through 2 semesters before dropping out the same as there are kids with lower test scores who will get there and bust their asses to graduate cum laude.

Basing college admissions on scores and grades only assumes all scores and grades from all sources are standardized.


Who cares if they drink themselves through semesters and dropping out? It's their money! If they drop out, then there will be an opening next round of classes.
 
2012-10-12 10:23:35 AM

Bontesla: Because a starving applicant has the resources to obtain adequate employment? They can afford clothes for the interview, access to resume builders and printers, and can perform comparably to well-fed candidates? Right.

Certainly the poor nutritional diet wouldn't result in bad teeth and skin. Definitely not.

Certainly the starving candidate can wash their clothes prior to each interview. Can afford transportation to the interview.

Do you know what's more motivating than starvation? Hope, opportunity, and equality.


Yeah, it's too bad all those resources they're given go towards big screen TVs at Rent-A-Center.
 
2012-10-12 10:24:06 AM

Bontesla: bhcompy: ha-ha-guy: Affirmative action is just a band aid for the real issue, how public schools are funded. It's basically "Sorry you grew up in an impoverished area with no funding for the school and as such had almost no hope of scoring decently on the ACT/SAT. Here have some bonus points on an application to a college you'll most likely fail out of, we're cool now right?".

Fix the root of the problem, don't just toss students 4 years at a better school to make up for K-12 neglect.

California doesn't fund in such a manner, yet it produces the same results(poor urban districts actually get more money per student than more affluent suburbs in general, and way more than middle class suburbs). So don't give me that bullshiat. The problem isn't the schools, it's the people, it's the culture, it's the acceptance of anything but success. Asian dad meme is a stereotype based in fact, but Asian dad meme doesn't have to be an Asian dad, it can be any dad, and that will generate success.

A well resourced school doesn't remove systematic and institutional bias. Why would you think it would?


What bias would that be? Whites are a minority of faculty at LAUSD schools.
 
2012-10-12 10:24:21 AM

ChuDogg: Silly Jesus: ChuDogg:

[dneiwert.blogspot.com image 300x199]


archive.4chon.net
 
2012-10-12 10:24:32 AM
Half of you are idiots, the other half are morans. I'll let both sides settle the debate.
 
2012-10-12 10:24:44 AM
i.imgur.com

Pretty much all you need to know about why drawing attention to ethnic minorities (when there are many routes to expedited college admissions) is itself playing the racial card.
 
2012-10-12 10:25:25 AM

dustygrimp: Basing college admissions on scores and grades only assumes all scores and grades from all sources are standardized.


Then they can go to a college where their version of the test is a closer match to the school.

It's not rocket science. There are regional differences as well as cultural. Don't be a knave.
 
2012-10-12 10:26:07 AM

Bontesla: Because a starving applicant has the resources to obtain adequate employment? They can afford clothes for the interview, access to resume builders and printers, and can perform comparably to well-fed candidates? Right.

Certainly the poor nutritional diet wouldn't result in bad teeth and skin. Definitely not.

Certainly the starving candidate can wash their clothes prior to each interview. Can afford transportation to the interview.

Do you know what's more motivating than starvation? Hope, opportunity, and equality.


The McDonald's around the corner from the projects always seems to be hiring...and from the looks of the employees, their standards aren't very high. It's a starting point.

OR we could just keep sending them a check every month so that they are content living right on the cusp of starvation with no incentive to change.
 
2012-10-12 10:28:16 AM

Silly Jesus: Bontesla: Silly Jesus: MycroftHolmes: Frank N Stein: ChuDogg: Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

[oag.org image 721x475]

Yes, the insatiable appetite for educations that blacks have is undeniable.

LOL. You beat down a group, put them at a disadvantage, and then tell them it is their fault when they can't break the cycle that you put them in. Well done. People like you are what convince me that, despite be clumsy and heavy handed, programs like affirmative action are essential.

You have to want to improve your lot in life in order for it to actually improve. Drive through your local projects in the middle of the day and look at all of the people who could be out applying for a job or working or doing anything other than what they are doing.

Here's the thing - when you can make "minimum wage" on disability - I don't blame anyone who decides not to work at Walmart or Amazon. What incentive does anyone have to work your butt off when you will only ever make the same amount as someone not working? Especially when you have a 3rd grade reading level and an incomplete high school education - your options are limited.

When you decide that criminal activity can be even more profitable - I can fully sympathize and understand how that looks like an attractive alternative.

Want to clean up the projects? We start with great education, a focus on college, and enough resources to make up for a single parent household in which one parent is working multiple jobs.

Or take away the giveaway programs. Hunger is an awfully good incentive for finding a job and bettering yourself.

/but but they will just start stealing to get food... Fine, shoot them. Seriously. If you are going to steal because you are too lazy or stupid to work, then you contribute nothing to society and don't deserve a place in it.


Let people starve and shoot them if they try to acquire food: Would this policy include children, the elderly, the handicapped?
 
2012-10-12 10:29:16 AM

Lunaville: Silly Jesus: Bontesla: Silly Jesus: MycroftHolmes: Frank N Stein: ChuDogg: Meanwhile blacks were getting pushed down the whole time and nobody even asked us what we thought.

[oag.org image 721x475]

Yes, the insatiable appetite for educations that blacks have is undeniable.

LOL. You beat down a group, put them at a disadvantage, and then tell them it is their fault when they can't break the cycle that you put them in. Well done. People like you are what convince me that, despite be clumsy and heavy handed, programs like affirmative action are essential.

You have to want to improve your lot in life in order for it to actually improve. Drive through your local projects in the middle of the day and look at all of the people who could be out applying for a job or working or doing anything other than what they are doing.

Here's the thing - when you can make "minimum wage" on disability - I don't blame anyone who decides not to work at Walmart or Amazon. What incentive does anyone have to work your butt off when you will only ever make the same amount as someone not working? Especially when you have a 3rd grade reading level and an incomplete high school education - your options are limited.

When you decide that criminal activity can be even more profitable - I can fully sympathize and understand how that looks like an attractive alternative.

Want to clean up the projects? We start with great education, a focus on college, and enough resources to make up for a single parent household in which one parent is working multiple jobs.

Or take away the giveaway programs. Hunger is an awfully good incentive for finding a job and bettering yourself.

/but but they will just start stealing to get food... Fine, shoot them. Seriously. If you are going to steal because you are too lazy or stupid to work, then you contribute nothing to society and don't deserve a place in it.

Let people starve and shoot them if they try to acquire food: Would this policy include childre ...


Ah, I should have clarified. It would apply to all able bodied adults.
 
2012-10-12 10:29:23 AM

ChuDogg: Silly Jesus: ChuDogg:

[dneiwert.blogspot.com image 300x199]


itmakessenseblog.com
 
2012-10-12 10:30:11 AM

PallMall: dustygrimp: There should be a better procedure for selections. There are kids with good test scores who are going to get there and drink their way through 2 semesters before dropping out the same as there are kids with lower test scores who will get there and bust their asses to graduate cum laude.

Basing college admissions on scores and grades only assumes all scores and grades from all sources are standardized.

Who cares if they drink themselves through semesters and dropping out? It's their money! If they drop out, then there will be an opening next round of classes.


This makes little sense. You are saying that candidates should be based on their abilities, then saying that their abilities are irrelevant.
 
2012-10-12 10:31:55 AM

Frank N Stein: I must say that the best way to get minorities into college would be a reform of our public education system.


Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner!

Colleges and universities cannot admit unqualified students just because they happen to be minorities. It is a disservice to all students and especially the minorities. Under-representation of minorities was once a racial problem, but this has not been the case for over 30 years. Today, it is a social problem that Affirmative Action cannot resolve.
 
2012-10-12 10:32:03 AM

Somacandra: [i.imgur.com image 500x299]

Pretty much all you need to know about why drawing attention to ethnic minorities (when there are many routes to expedited college admissions) is itself playing the racial card.


So a policy based on race isn't the race card?

That is pretty weak.
 
2012-10-12 10:32:22 AM

Somacandra: [i.imgur.com image 500x299]

Pretty much all you need to know about why drawing attention to ethnic minorities (when there are many routes to expedited college admissions) is itself playing the racial card.


Alumni and large money donors are a very small fraction of admissions. Out of staters can be of any race, and evens itself out since you can apply out of state too. Athletic scholarships consider at least some kind of skill and are usually given to minorities anyway.

These are red herrings.
 
2012-10-12 10:33:16 AM

Lunaville: Resumes received from black people were not even kept on file. They were tossed directly into the trash.


How would you know? Was there a special kind of paper black people used? 

Half the time, I'm taking a wild guess as to whether an applicant is male or female.
 
2012-10-12 10:34:38 AM

fireclown: While we have the hood up, can we get rid of athletic scholarships? Admitting someone to a college because they can dribble well is dumb.


If it didn't benefit them, schools wouldn't do it.
 
2012-10-12 10:34:53 AM

MycroftHolmes: This makes little sense. You are saying that candidates should be based on their abilities, then saying that their abilities are irrelevant.


You're a jack-off idiot.

Candidates going to COLLEGE (hint: for education) should be admitted based on their SMARTS. If they get in and blow it off by getting wasted and screwing around, then so be it.

Trying to pass "drinking" as an ability is ludicrous. Everyone can do that.

College is for higher education. Some folks just aren't cut out for it. Your view on things is fantastical and ridiculous.. but keep on farking that chicken, idiots come in all sorts of shapes and colors.
 
2012-10-12 10:35:53 AM
There is abundant and growing evidence that academic success is determined by the knowledge and vocabulary that you were exposed to by age six. The number of books in the home is a strong indicator of future success. Kids from uppper and upper middle socioeconomic levels start school with an advantage.

While race relations have improved considerably since the advent of affirmative action, you have to be delusional or deliberately blind to claim that there's no racism or advantage to being white. And I could argue that being Asian confers advantages over being black or Hispanic.

I think adding a socioeconomic component would help even the playing field. The child of a couple of black doctors has advantages that the child of a couple of semi-employed white people with low level jobs. But the child of the black doctors it's still subject to racism, although that person is probably facing a more subtle form of racism. And nobody crosses the street to avoid a young Asian man.

It's also true that a black culture of deriding academic success is a problem. The smart black kid who gets good grades but lives in a poor black inner city neighborhood isn't going this have many friends and is going to get beat up for walking home from school carrying textbooks.

The Texas policy of guaranteed admissions to the top 10% isn't really fair. The grades that put you in the top 10% at one school may only be in the 11%-15% at another school.

I grew up in Maryland and when I was in high school, UM had guaranteed admissions for state residents, meaning that you were admitted if you met a certain GPA/SAT level. This is no longer the case.

This issue is more complicated than simple affirmative action.

My husband is a computer programmer, currently works for a large defense contractor. But he has also worked for small and large private companies. Programming is very merit based, you need specific technical skills and certain programming languages for any position and they don't seem to care what kind of name or skin color a person has. His workplaces have always been very diverse but the only black programmers he's worked with were African immigrants. He's a senior guy so here reviews resumes and does interviews. I know how he reviews resumes, he looks for specific skills and about of experience; he doesn't look at the name until he's calling someone in for an interviewe. He told me that he's never even interviewed a non-immigrant black programmer.
 
2012-10-12 10:41:10 AM

Lunaville: Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.

Your statement makes a certain amount of sense. When I was very young I opposed affirmative action. One of the smartest people at my high school was a black female. I thought, obviously, anyone would trip over themselves to accept her to their college or hire her. I thought affirmative action was insulting to people like her. Then I began to work at actual jobs versus, for instance, babysitting.

By the time I was 23 years old, I had done a 180. I had worked at places where I was not allowed to even provide an application to black people. I was required to say the business was out of applications. Resumes received from black people were not even kept on file. They were tossed directly into the trash. Funny thing about jobs like that, they manage to make the "acceptable" people allowed to work in such a place perfectly miserable. An owner/manager that dedicated to acting unjustly and inequitably certainly isn't going to treat the people s/he does hire fairly or respectfully.

I concede that other, non-race based, discrimination happens. After picking up a little experience and learning to stand my ground a bit, I worked in a retail store where I refused to have anything at all to do with applications. Personnel accepting applications had been directed to code the application indicating the race of the applicant and whether the applicant was fat. The store set a limited number of positions that could be held by non-white people and would not exceed that number. If you were fat, however, you weren't getting hired, period.

When you are young you imagine that people strive to be as intelligent, logical, and fair m ...


I was opposed to AA and, having experienced some of the same things you did, came to the conclusion that not only am I still opposed to AA, I believe that business owners should be allowed to be complete bigots. I am happiest if they wear it on their sleeve. That allows me to make sure I never do business with them.

Every company sells capacity -whatever that capacity is. Every company's competitors can get the same capacity it can. In order to make one company's capacity more attractive than another's, that company needs to differentiate its capacity. The way to do that is with the people a company hires. Every employee has something to offer. The best managers are going to figure out what that is and utilize a person's capabilities to the fullest and reward those employees who are most effectively selling that capacity.

If you have a bigot who doesn't want to hire blacks, for example, that bigot is passing by a whole bunch of capacity differentiation. If there is a black who could best fulfill a position and make his company most effective, he'll never know because he wont hire him. Meanwhile, an intelligent competitor of his will hire that black person and they'll both make money. When you force a bigot to hire a minority, I can guarantee you (from about 40 years of experience) that the bigot will not utilize that employee effectively. That is not only a waste of good talent, it deprives a non-bigot of the opportunity to utilize the talents of that minority and afford both the minority and the other business owner of the opportunity to succeed. And, in the meantime, the bigot can trot out his AA employee to prove that he's not a bigot and unsuspecting customers who don't like bigotry will be suckered into doing business with him.

I'm not suggesting that life will be easy for minorities. But success can be attained by those who are willing to go after it. There are too many examples of minorities who have made it in spite of discrimination to argue otherwise. In my opinion, a lot of the discouragement amongst minorities comes from dealing with "closeted" bigots - those who can hide behind AA while still using subtler forms of discrimination. That starts, for many, in the elementary schools with teachers and school administrators and continues all the way through their working life.

It has been demonstrated that minorities who are admitted with lesser standards into top ranked schools have a higher drop out rate. In schools that are operated by minorities or less prestigious schools, minorities' success rate is much better. Has anyone ever done a study to see if that success rate has anything to do with the attitude of faculty and staff at the various institutions? I have a suspicion (not in any way scientifically validated) that there is certain amount of bigotry amongst professors and staff at prestigious schools toward the poor and minorities that isn't found in, for example, black colleges.

AA, in my opinion, tells minorities that they are incapable of achieving without the help of their "betters." Is that a message that is supposed to help them with the confidence that they can achieve?
 
2012-10-12 10:41:45 AM

Phins: His workplaces have always been very diverse but the only black programmers he's worked with were African immigrants.


That's because programming isn't "fo shizzle" to blacks in the US. This has nothing to do with a school. This has to do with parenting and cultural upbringing.

I know a black aerospace engineer. Not DeGrasse black, but full on "Yo homie, wat it do?" black. Smart mofo, but only ended up where he is because his parents taught him that education was important, and getting away from a welfare lifestyle would do him good. That and he was born with the capacity to be intelligent. Most folks are destined to be dumbshiats. It is the law of nature.
 
2012-10-12 10:41:49 AM

Bontesla: Joe Blowme: what_now: Basing affirmative action on race is a practice that, in my opinion, should be ended.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.

So even if you scored a 20 on ACT and i scored 32
, you should get in first because you are poor?

If you think this is the way Affirmative Action works then you should probably educate yourself before forming an opinion.


that's exactly how it works RIGHT NOW, just replace poor for *more melanin in your skin*.
blacks get close to a 50% bump on their SATs compared to Asians. you need to educate yourself before informing us about how ignorant you are about the topic.

http://cornellsun.com/section/opinion/content/2011/11/14/no-asians-n ee d-apply
A study on affirmative action by Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade showed that when numerous factors are controlled for, Hispanic students receive a admissions boost equivalent to around 130 points on the SAT, while black students receive a boost of 310 points. Asian students, however, face a 140 point penalty. It was therefore no surprise when, after California outlawed the use of racial preferences in admissions, the representation of Asian Americans jumped significantly at University of California schools.

Asian students have higher average SAT scores than any other group, including whites. Espenshade found that Asian-Americans needed a 1550 SAT to have an equal chance of getting into an elite college as white students with a 1410 or black students with an 1100.
 
2012-10-12 10:41:53 AM

PallMall: dustygrimp: There should be a better procedure for selections. There are kids with good test scores who are going to get there and drink their way through 2 semesters before dropping out the same as there are kids with lower test scores who will get there and bust their asses to graduate cum laude.

Basing college admissions on scores and grades only assumes all scores and grades from all sources are standardized.

Who cares if they drink themselves through semesters and dropping out? It's their money! If they drop out, then there will be an opening next round of classes.


Your argument was that those with the test scores and grades are deserving. Some of those withe the grades and scores are not. As an admissions officer I would rather have good kids that work hard than smart kids that bring down my graduation rate by boozing their way out of school. By the way, that's who cares. The colleges.
 
2012-10-12 10:42:25 AM
Swap 'racial' diversity for economic/geographic diversity.
e.g. give 'tie-breaker' points to people from under-represented ZIP codes. and under-represented economic classes, etc

The practical effect of that *would be* more diversity. The truly desirable kind (giving opportunities to people who -- statistically and objectively -- haven't been getting them, regardless of the reason.)
You'd side-step race itself as the talking point and future-proof it against new definitions of minority status or reversals of minority fortune.
(i.e. it would be safe from the crap that paranoid white people worry about: what happens when they're the minority. what happens when liberal academics play word games to make minorities out of everyone but the conservative "real 'merkans" and thus discriminate against *them*. etc)
 
2012-10-12 10:43:21 AM

PallMall: MycroftHolmes: This makes little sense. You are saying that candidates should be based on their abilities, then saying that their abilities are irrelevant.

You're a jack-off idiot.

Candidates going to COLLEGE (hint: for education) should be admitted based on their SMARTS. If they get in and blow it off by getting wasted and screwing around, then so be it.

Trying to pass "drinking" as an ability is ludicrous. Everyone can do that.

College is for higher education. Some folks just aren't cut out for it. Your view on things is fantastical and ridiculous.. but keep on farking that chicken, idiots come in all sorts of shapes and colors.


You narrowly define qualifications to fit your arguments. If you are going to base admittance on qualifications, it should also include the ability to actually succeed at the challenges presented. That does include, to varying degrees, the character and discipline to continue your studies, the social and communication skills necessary to interact with the college community, and the drive and intellectual curiousity needed to learn for the sake of learning. To say that grades (not standard across all schools) and test scores (horribly one dimensional) should be the only criteria for college admittance is a horribly shallow and misguided idea, though the idea of creating objective admittance standards is, in itself, not horrible.
 
2012-10-12 10:46:33 AM

ringersol: Swap 'racial' diversity for economic/geographic diversity.
e.g. give 'tie-breaker' points to people from under-represented ZIP codes. and under-represented economic classes, etc

The practical effect of that *would be* more diversity. The truly desirable kind (giving opportunities to people who -- statistically and objectively -- haven't been getting them, regardless of the reason.)
You'd side-step race itself as the talking point and future-proof it against new definitions of minority status or reversals of minority fortune.
(i.e. it would be safe from the crap that paranoid white people worry about: what happens when they're the minority. what happens when liberal academics play word games to make minorities out of everyone but the conservative "real 'merkans" and thus discriminate against *them*. etc)


how about this, do it because discriminating against people based on the color of their skin is wrong. you people have claimed that it is literally the most evil thing a government could possibly participate in but a the same time have championed it since the 1970's.
 
2012-10-12 10:46:58 AM

This text is now purple: How would you know? Was there a special kind of paper black people used?


i141.photobucket.com

/i keed 
//usually blunts
 
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