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(Reuters)   Supreme Court is divided over an affirmative action case involving college admissions. Come on, why shouldn't minorities have the same opportunity to get mired hopelessly deep in college loan debt like anyone else?   (reuters.com) divider line 300
    More: Followup, Justice Kennedy, supreme courts, University and college admissions, Justice Antonin Scalia, Solicitor General of the United States, strict scrutiny, Stephen Breyer, Chief Justice John Roberts  
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3917 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Oct 2012 at 7:45 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-12 08:50:08 AM  

PallMall: Race, ethnicity, color, religion, etc should have NOTHING to do with getting in to college. Affirmative action hurts otherwise qualified candidates from getting there.


Completely agree. And it's horribly condescending when it's suggested that somehow we're hurt by it. I don't feel like my graduate education was negatively impacted by not having racial minorities in the problem. It was, however, dramatically enhanced by having some incredibly bright people around me from diverse educational backgrounds. Replacing one of them with a token black guy would have been detrimental.
 
2012-10-12 08:51:31 AM  
"Wow! Just come out and say what you really think, people of certain races are genetically culturally inferior. That is what you are saying, I simply summed up your thought using fewer words." 

Fixed
 
2012-10-12 08:52:27 AM  

ChuDogg: Asians only achieve status due to the "model minority" stigma. The whites say jump and they say "how high" look good little worker bees in this hyper capitalist dystopia. I don't feel the need to apologize that blacks and browns have taken an alternate path and decide to take what is owed to us.


What the fark? Seriously, that's the most racist thing I've seen on Fark up to this point. And I read the politics tab.
 
2012-10-12 08:54:37 AM  

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: ChuDogg: Asians only achieve status due to the "model minority" stigma. The whites say jump and they say "how high" look good little worker bees in this hyper capitalist dystopia. I don't feel the need to apologize that blacks and browns have taken an alternate path and decide to take what is owed to us.

What the fark? Seriously, that's the most racist thing I've seen on Fark up to this point. And I read the politics tab.


Affirmative action threads have a way of thinking we need to be perfectly fair in our genocide of the entire human race.
 
2012-10-12 08:54:47 AM  

Dr.Mxyzptlk.: taurusowner
Or....we could just judge people not be the color of their skin but by the content of their charter, or in this case, mind.

Only a redneck, tea bagging fundamentalist would suggest that we rely on the "content of their character ..."


www.westernjournalism.com
 
2012-10-12 08:54:54 AM  
This is one of those areas where the federal government has to step in to do some leveling of the playing field. If not, we'll end up with too many college classrooms with zero black or hispanic faces and zero input from those people into the "elite" graduating from those schools.
If all we have are white people in the classrooms, we're mostly going to have white leaders. And if those white leaders have only seen minorities on TV or as part of their drug habit, then minorities are never going to get a fair shake.
The up and coming 50% minority population in this country has not enjoyed the same access to college as the former white majority, and we're going to have major problems as a society if we cannot produce enough integrated leaders.
 
2012-10-12 08:55:41 AM  

Zeb Hesselgresser: "Wow! Just come out and say what you really think, people of certain races are genetically culturally inferior. That is what you are saying, I simply summed up your thought using fewer words." 

Fixed


He said color, I'm pretty sure color isn't a cultural thing. I could be wrong.
 
2012-10-12 08:56:23 AM  

thurstonxhowell: thinking


*making me think

The "Add Comment" button is my greatest nemesis. It tempts me with its immediacy, but shames me with my inability to write things correctly the first time.

...and now, I click the "Add Comment" button. May God have mercy on my post.
 
2012-10-12 08:56:48 AM  

what_now: Joe Blowme: what_now: Basing affirmative action on race is a practice that, in my opinion, should be ended.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.

So even if you scored a 20 on ACT and i scored 32, you should get in first because you are poor?

Obviously there have to be standards. But admissions is not simply test scores, it's a whole metric of things- especially at the better schools. If a kid who grew up in a affluent suburb with parents who are college educated professionals has the same grades, skill set and test scores as a kid who grew up in poverty, went to a shiatty public high school and has no history of higher education I his family, then the second kid has clearly worked harder.


I can see doing that.
 
2012-10-12 08:57:11 AM  

Smoky Dragon Dish: Dr.Mxyzptlk.: taurusowner
Or....we could just judge people not be the color of their skin but by the content of their charter, or in this case, mind.

Only a redneck, tea bagging fundamentalist would suggest that we rely on the "content of their character ..."

[www.westernjournalism.com image 300x380]


Well, he was a Republican, and he embraced all of the values of The Tea Party.
 
2012-10-12 08:57:31 AM  
When you consider that birth rates plummet with increases in women's education, you'd think the racists would be screaming to get minority women in college.
 
2012-10-12 08:59:30 AM  

Kaymon: When you consider that birth rates plummet with increases in women's education, you'd think the racists would be screaming to get minority women in college.


Read the above posts, they are.
 
2012-10-12 09:00:42 AM  

Bontesla: Lunaville: Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.

Your statement makes a certain amount of sense. When I was very young I opposed affirmative action. One of the smartest people at my high school was a black female. I thought, obviously, anyone would trip over themselves to accept her to their college or hire her. I thought affirmative action was insulting to people like her. Then I began to work at actual jobs versus, for instance, babysitting.

By the time I was 23 years old, I had done a 180. I had worked at places where I was not allowed to even provide an application to black people. I was required to say the business was out of applications. Resumes received from black people were not even kept on file. They were tossed directly into the trash. Funny thing about jobs like that, they manage to make the "acceptable" people allowed to work in such a place perfectly miserable. An owner/manager that dedicated to acting unjustly and inequitably certainly isn't going to treat the people s/he does hire fairly or respectfully.

I concede that other, non-race based, discrimination happens. After picking up a little experience and learning to stand my ground a bit, I worked in a retail store where I refused to have anything at all to do with applications. Personnel accepting applications had been directed to code the application indicating the race of the applicant and whether the applicant was fat. The store set a limited number of positions that could be held by non-white people and would not exceed that number. If you were fat, however, you weren't getting hired, period.

When you are young you imagine that people strive to be as intelligent, logical, ...


Honestly, would you not feel any differently calling in for customer service and someone answering "Hi, this is Sha-nay-nay." vs "Hi, this is Michelle?"

Sha-nay-nay just sounds less professional than Michelle. I don't think that that is necessarily a race thing, it's just a ridiculous phonetic name vs. a traditional name thing.
 
2012-10-12 09:01:18 AM  

taurusowner: Or....we could just judge people not be the color of their skin but by the content of their charter, or in this case, mind.


This is the ideal, but is certainly unrealstic. It is naive in the extreme to think that removing affirmative action would result in a leveling of the playing field or objective standards.
 
2012-10-12 09:01:22 AM  

Big Dave: This is one of those areas where the federal government has to step in to do some leveling of the playing field. If not, we'll end up with too many college classrooms with zero black or hispanic faces and zero input from those people into the "elite" graduating from those schools.
If all we have are white people in the classrooms, we're mostly going to have white leaders. And if those white leaders have only seen minorities on TV or as part of their drug habit, then minorities are never going to get a fair shake.
The up and coming 50% minority population in this country has not enjoyed the same access to college as the former white majority, and we're going to have major problems as a society if we cannot produce enough integrated leaders.


Leaders are BORN, not CREATED. Trying to manufacture a leader will only result in a half-ass loser. Most folks are born to be sheep. Some are born to be shepherds. This is the law of nature.
 
2012-10-12 09:02:12 AM  
time to dust this one off
imageshack.us
 
2012-10-12 09:03:34 AM  

Bontesla: The person with the white sounding names received a LOT more calls despite the resume containing the exact same skills and experience.


I concur with this.

I am white. My birth name is "multi-cultural." Until someone sees me in person, they assume I'm either a filthy wetback, a sub-human negro or a sand dwelling muslin' terrorist.
 
2012-10-12 09:03:37 AM  

Bontesla: Joe Blowme: what_now: Basing affirmative action on race is a practice that, in my opinion, should be ended.

However, I'd like to see a college admissions affirmative action program based on poverty and first generation college students. That way, you help the exact people you want- including the poor white and Asian kids.

So even if you scored a 20 on ACT and i scored 32, you should get in first because you are poor?

If you think this is the way Affirmative Action works then you should probably educate yourself before forming an opinion.


says the person who cant quite comprehend the post they comment on.
 
2012-10-12 09:05:06 AM  
First generation Irish here, I must be punished for the sins of your ancestors.
 
2012-10-12 09:05:26 AM  
Asians aren't discriminated against? Chinese exclusion act, Japanese internment, the use of diversity quotas to ban all but the upper echelon of Asians from any position?

Lunaville: Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.

Your statement makes a certain amount of sense. When I was very young I opposed affirmative action. One of the smartest people at my high school was a black female. I thought, obviously, anyone would trip over themselves to accept her to their college or hire her. I thought affirmative action was insulting to people like her. Then I began to work at actual jobs versus, for instance, babysitting.

By the time I was 23 years old, I had done a 180. I had worked at places where I was not allowed to even provide an application to black people. I was required to say the business was out of applications. Resumes received from black people were not even kept on file. They were tossed directly into the trash. Funny thing about jobs like that, they manage to make the "acceptable" people allowed to work in such a place perfectly miserable. An owner/manager that dedicated to acting unjustly and inequitably certainly isn't going to treat the people s/he does hire fairly or respectfully.

I concede that other, non-race based, discrimination happens. After picking up a little experience and learning to stand my ground a bit, I worked in a retail store where I refused to have anything at all to do with applications. Personnel accepting applications had been directed to code the application indicating the race of the applicant and whether the applicant was fat. The store set a limited number of positions that could be held by non-white people and would not exceed that number. If you were fat, however, you weren't getting hired, period.

When you are young you imagine that people strive to be as intelligent, logical, and fair m ...


I was on the hiring council at a major technology company, looking for qualified software people.

we made damn sure we were hiring a diverse staff, and we farking scoured the applicant pool to make sure our bases were all covered... blacks, women, native American, people with disabilities, etc.

I don't doubt there is some idiosyncratic racism out there, but it doesn't happen in the big firms because we don't need to waste legal teams on retarded bull shiat.
 
2012-10-12 09:06:21 AM  

Silly Jesus: Sha-nay-nay just sounds less professional than Michelle. I don't think that that is necessarily a race thing, it's just a ridiculous phonetic name vs. a traditional name thing.


yes, and traditional names change. Sure they could do the same thing foreign call centers do and use fake names, but why should you be judged by what your parents named you?

//does not apply for the name shiathead (pronounced Sha-theed) and yes, I've heard of at least one case of this from two sources talking about the same person
 
2012-10-12 09:07:01 AM  
I would be curious to know how many of the people speaking against affirmative action are memebers of a traditionally repressed minority class.

Sure, Affirmative action is, by it's very nature, racist. But if you take away the racism that helps minorities without addressing the institutional and cultural racism that harms them, you are not helping the problem.

The problem is a good deal more complex than that, but I don't think simplistic stances like 'we should only judge people by their actions' and 'we should remove raced based decisions', while appealing to idealists, are practical or fair social policy
 
2012-10-12 09:07:22 AM  

zedster: time to dust this one off
[imageshack.us image 450x355]


colorlines.com
 
2012-10-12 09:07:41 AM  

legion_of_doo: we made damn sure we were hiring a diverse staff, and we farking scoured the applicant pool to make sure our bases were all covered... blacks, women, native American, people with disabilities, etc.


Is this a video on your hiring practices?
 
2012-10-12 09:08:09 AM  

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: PallMall: Race, ethnicity, color, religion, etc should have NOTHING to do with getting in to college. Affirmative action hurts otherwise qualified candidates from getting there.

Completely agree. And it's horribly condescending when it's suggested that somehow we're hurt by it. I don't feel like my graduate education was negatively impacted by not having racial minorities in the problem. It was, however, dramatically enhanced by having some incredibly bright people around me from diverse educational backgrounds. Replacing one of them with a token black guy would have been detrimental.


Ha. If you think the white students were there only because of merit then you're part of the problem. White students, specifically affluent white students, are given the advantage since birth.

Take tracking as a great example. Schools that participate in tracking actually invest in the students they decide have the best opportunities for future achievement. Academics play a role - but so does parental involvement, parental education levels, student neatness, appearance, and so on.

Once selected as someone the school will track for success - the teachers are encouraged to befriend the families, tutor the children (or find tutuors), and separate that student from the herd.

And if you don't think your school tracks students then you weren't a chosen one. Most schools track.

There are many other examples of the types of advantages bestowed upon white students - specifically affluent white students. The race of a teacher plays a HUGE role in how that teacher will teach students of different races. In several studies - white teachers were shown to call on white students to answer questions more often. White teachers were more often willing to make exceptions for white students. Black teachers were harder on struggling black students than they were on white students.

A single bad teacher can set a student behind an entire academic year whereas a single good teacher can cover more than an academic year's worth of material. So, a student can drop from B to C or D based on a teacher's performance. A single bad year can propel each subsequent year into being bad if the student isn't given an opportunity to catch up.
 
2012-10-12 09:09:31 AM  

david_gaithersburg: TimonC346: Silly Jesus: Affirmative action actually harms minorities. They get in over their heads, so to speak, and have a lower rate of graduation from more prestigious schools that they otherwise would not have qualified for.

Source: NPR

I'm sure that's probably true--the problem is the alternative--which is zero representation of anyone but European or Asian descent at any high end American schools. Which then throws in our face AND highlights institutionalized racism all at the same time.

Considering where these kids are starting from, Affirmative Action is sort of like a necessary evil. It is inherently unfair to make up for the societal unfairness of simply being born a different color. I'm not sure if that bodes well for it being constitutional, but I certainly support it.

^^^^^^^^^^

Wow! Just come out and say what you really think, people of certain races are genetically inferior. That is what you are saying, I simply summed up your thought using fewer words.


I don't see how one gets from "Affirmative action makes up for the societal unfairness of being born a different color" to "You are saying that people of certain races are genetically inferior." Unless you're equating "socially disadvantaged due to skin color" with "genetically inferior," in which case, I guess I could see that interpretation (if you consider "society" to be "environment" in a Darwinian sense), but that's not how people generally think of such things. Not when the "environment" is "stupid thinking" instead of, say, heat or a hurricane.
 
2012-10-12 09:10:05 AM  

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: PallMall: Race, ethnicity, color, religion, etc should have NOTHING to do with getting in to college. Affirmative action hurts otherwise qualified candidates from getting there.

Completely agree. And it's horribly condescending when it's suggested that somehow we're hurt by it. I don't feel like my graduate education was negatively impacted by not having racial minorities in the problem. It was, however, dramatically enhanced by having some incredibly bright people around me from diverse educational backgrounds. Replacing one of them with a token black guy would have been detrimental.


Yes, from a purely self centered point of view, you are correct.
 
2012-10-12 09:10:08 AM  

david_gaithersburg: First generation Irish here, I must be punished for the sins of your ancestors.


There you go again.
 
2012-10-12 09:10:11 AM  

Smoky Dragon Dish: Dr.Mxyzptlk.: taurusowner
Or....we could just judge people not be the color of their skin but by the content of their charter, or in this case, mind.

Only a redneck, tea bagging fundamentalist would suggest that we rely on the "content of their character ..."

[www.westernjournalism.com image 300x380]


+3
 
2012-10-12 09:10:24 AM  

MycroftHolmes: I would be curious to know how many of the people speaking against affirmative action are memebers of a traditionally repressed minority class.

Sure, Affirmative action is, by it's very nature, racist. But if you take away the racism that helps minorities without addressing the institutional and cultural racism that harms them, you are not helping the problem.

The problem is a good deal more complex than that, but I don't think simplistic stances like 'we should only judge people by their actions' and 'we should remove raced based decisions', while appealing to idealists, are practical or fair social policy


.
So what you are saying is that you feel guilty about your family's past and others should suffer for your guilt.

//Two wrongs don't make a right, or something like that.
 
2012-10-12 09:10:40 AM  

Silly Jesus: Bontesla: Lunaville: Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.

Your statement makes a certain amount of sense. When I was very young I opposed affirmative action. One of the smartest people at my high school was a black female. I thought, obviously, anyone would trip over themselves to accept her to their college or hire her. I thought affirmative action was insulting to people like her. Then I began to work at actual jobs versus, for instance, babysitting.

By the time I was 23 years old, I had done a 180. I had worked at places where I was not allowed to even provide an application to black people. I was required to say the business was out of applications. Resumes received from black people were not even kept on file. They were tossed directly into the trash. Funny thing about jobs like that, they manage to make the "acceptable" people allowed to work in such a place perfectly miserable. An owner/manager that dedicated to acting unjustly and inequitably certainly isn't going to treat the people s/he does hire fairly or respectfully.

I concede that other, non-race based, discrimination happens. After picking up a little experience and learning to stand my ground a bit, I worked in a retail store where I refused to have anything at all to do with applications. Personnel accepting applications had been directed to code the application indicating the race of the applicant and whether the applicant was fat. The store set a limited number of positions that could be held by non-white people and would not exceed that number. If you were fat, however, you weren't getting hired, period.

When you are young you imagine that people strive to be as intelligent, logical, ...

Honestly, would you not feel any differently calling in for customer service and someone answering "Hi, this is Sha-nay-nay." vs "Hi, this is Michelle?"

Sha-nay-nay just sounds less professional than Michelle. I don't think that that is necessarily a race thing, it's just a ridiculous phonetic name vs. a traditional name thing.


Traditional American = white.
It is very much a race thing.
 
2012-10-12 09:11:36 AM  

zedster: Silly Jesus: Sha-nay-nay just sounds less professional than Michelle. I don't think that that is necessarily a race thing, it's just a ridiculous phonetic name vs. a traditional name thing.

yes, and traditional names change. Sure they could do the same thing foreign call centers do and use fake names, but why should you be judged by what your parents named you?

//does not apply for the name shiathead (pronounced Sha-theed) and yes, I've heard of at least one case of this from two sources talking about the same person


Genetics? If you parents genes resulted in them thinking that it was a good idea to name you Lemonjello then you inherited those genes and that is a consideration in your future work performance.

Frank Zappa was crazy...he named his kids crazy names, my favorite being Moon Unit. If Moon Unit asked me for a job I would rightfully assume that her parents were mentally unstable and that she just might be as well.

Ridiculous names carry weight, like it or not.
 
2012-10-12 09:12:22 AM  

david_gaithersburg: Zeb Hesselgresser: "Wow! Just come out and say what you really think, people of certain races are genetically culturally inferior. That is what you are saying, I simply summed up your thought using fewer words." 

Fixed

He said color, I'm pretty sure color isn't a cultural thing. I could be wrong.


Ah, gotcha.

Perception of people based on skin color is a cultural thing. But people with the "wrong" skin color aren't geneteically inferior in that sense, because perception can be altered.
 
2012-10-12 09:14:08 AM  

Bontesla: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: PallMall: Race, ethnicity, color, religion, etc should have NOTHING to do with getting in to college. Affirmative action hurts otherwise qualified candidates from getting there.

Completely agree. And it's horribly condescending when it's suggested that somehow we're hurt by it. I don't feel like my graduate education was negatively impacted by not having racial minorities in the problem. It was, however, dramatically enhanced by having some incredibly bright people around me from diverse educational backgrounds. Replacing one of them with a token black guy would have been detrimental.

Ha. If you think the white students were there only because of merit then you're part of the problem. White students, specifically affluent white students, are given the advantage since birth.

Take tracking as a great example. Schools that participate in tracking actually invest in the students they decide have the best opportunities for future achievement. Academics play a role - but so does parental involvement, parental education levels, student neatness, appearance, and so on.

Once selected as someone the school will track for success - the teachers are encouraged to befriend the families, tutor the children (or find tutuors), and separate that student from the herd.

And if you don't think your school tracks students then you weren't a chosen one. Most schools track.

There are many other examples of the types of advantages bestowed upon white students - specifically affluent white students. The race of a teacher plays a HUGE role in how that teacher will teach students of different races. In several studies - white teachers were shown to call on white students to answer questions more often. White teachers were more often willing to make exceptions for white students. Black teachers were harder on struggling black students than they were on white students.

A single bad teacher can set a student behind an entire academic year whereas a single good tea ...


So, essentially, if you're not smart enough to get into a good school, it's the fault of society, teachers, parents etc.
 
2012-10-12 09:14:59 AM  

david_gaithersburg: MycroftHolmes: I would be curious to know how many of the people speaking against affirmative action are memebers of a traditionally repressed minority class.

Sure, Affirmative action is, by it's very nature, racist. But if you take away the racism that helps minorities without addressing the institutional and cultural racism that harms them, you are not helping the problem.

The problem is a good deal more complex than that, but I don't think simplistic stances like 'we should only judge people by their actions' and 'we should remove raced based decisions', while appealing to idealists, are practical or fair social policy

.
So what you are saying is that you feel guilty about your family's past and others should suffer for your guilt.

//Two wrongs don't make a right, or something like that.


No, i am not saying anything of the sort, nor am I part of the majority class (I am Asian, so somewhat neutral in this debate). My point is that today's society is not integrated, it is not a level playing field, institutional racism does exist. if he goal is to, over time, erode racial distinctions as being synonymous with educational and class distinctions, a policy of 'let's just ignore the last 100 years of history and the position that the majority has placed the minorities in and pretend everything is merit based' is naive in the extreme and misguided.
 
2012-10-12 09:15:28 AM  

Quick Fixer: david_gaithersburg: TimonC346: Silly Jesus: Affirmative action actually harms minorities. They get in over their heads, so to speak, and have a lower rate of graduation from more prestigious schools that they otherwise would not have qualified for.

Source: NPR

I'm sure that's probably true--the problem is the alternative--which is zero representation of anyone but European or Asian descent at any high end American schools. Which then throws in our face AND highlights institutionalized racism all at the same time.

Considering where these kids are starting from, Affirmative Action is sort of like a necessary evil. It is inherently unfair to make up for the societal unfairness of simply being born a different color. I'm not sure if that bodes well for it being constitutional, but I certainly support it.

^^^^^^^^^^

Wow! Just come out and say what you really think, people of certain races are genetically inferior. That is what you are saying, I simply summed up your thought using fewer words.

I don't see how one gets from "Affirmative action makes up for the societal unfairness of being born a different color" to "You are saying that people of certain races are genetically inferior." Unless you're equating "socially disadvantaged due to skin color" with "genetically inferior," in which case, I guess I could see that interpretation (if you consider "society" to be "environment" in a Darwinian sense), but that's not how people generally think of such things. Not when the "environment" is "stupid thinking" instead of, say, heat or a hurricane.


..
.
Where is"societal unfairness" mentioned. I'm only reading that people of certain races are not capable of competing. That's an interesting plantation you people are tending.
 
2012-10-12 09:15:54 AM  

Bontesla: Silly Jesus: Bontesla: Lunaville: Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.

Your statement makes a certain amount of sense. When I was very young I opposed affirmative action. One of the smartest people at my high school was a black female. I thought, obviously, anyone would trip over themselves to accept her to their college or hire her. I thought affirmative action was insulting to people like her. Then I began to work at actual jobs versus, for instance, babysitting.

By the time I was 23 years old, I had done a 180. I had worked at places where I was not allowed to even provide an application to black people. I was required to say the business was out of applications. Resumes received from black people were not even kept on file. They were tossed directly into the trash. Funny thing about jobs like that, they manage to make the "acceptable" people allowed to work in such a place perfectly miserable. An owner/manager that dedicated to acting unjustly and inequitably certainly isn't going to treat the people s/he does hire fairly or respectfully.

I concede that other, non-race based, discrimination happens. After picking up a little experience and learning to stand my ground a bit, I worked in a retail store where I refused to have anything at all to do with applications. Personnel accepting applications had been directed to code the application indicating the race of the applicant and whether the applicant was fat. The store set a limited number of positions that could be held by non-white people and would not exceed that number. If you were fat, however, you weren't getting hired, period.

When you are young you imagine that people strive to be a ...


Michelle Obama isn't white.
 
2012-10-12 09:19:16 AM  
Studies have shown that minorities who got through college on affirmative action do just as well in their careers as other graduates from the same schools. That points out the fact that America is all about opportunity. I'd be willing to get rid of affirmative action if we could also get rid of nepotism and cronyism, which are exponentially more of a problem. In fact, affirmative action was created a slight remedy to nepotism and cronyism. If you're a mediocre white kid who didn't get admitted to the college of your choice, you can fight for real justice, or you can be practical and network better. You have that opportunity.

/ I got suckered in by Shelby Steele's 'Content of Their Character' when it came out. Until I realized that it assumes a level playing field. The level playing field is a given in conservative logic.
 
2012-10-12 09:20:08 AM  

Silly Jesus: zedster: Silly Jesus: Sha-nay-nay just sounds less professional than Michelle. I don't think that that is necessarily a race thing, it's just a ridiculous phonetic name vs. a traditional name thing.

yes, and traditional names change. Sure they could do the same thing foreign call centers do and use fake names, but why should you be judged by what your parents named you?

//does not apply for the name shiathead (pronounced Sha-theed) and yes, I've heard of at least one case of this from two sources talking about the same person

Genetics? If you parents genes resulted in them thinking that it was a good idea to name you Lemonjello then you inherited those genes and that is a consideration in your future work performance.

Frank Zappa was crazy...he named his kids crazy names, my favorite being Moon Unit. If Moon Unit asked me for a job I would rightfully assume that her parents were mentally unstable and that she just might be as well.

Ridiculous names carry weight, like it or not.


But we don't need to imagine such extreme differences. The name Greg carries a different weight than Jamal or Donte. Williard than Freeman. Milton than Marcus.

My name is Jessica. I had it made socially. They studied the name Jessica and compared it to Bernadette. Similar essay responses and Jessica scored worse than Bernadette at an alarming rate. Teachers gave the academic benefit to a "smart" name and not the "popular" name.

/I did "ok" in K-12 because I was lazy. I made it into an elite college but obviously not based on academic success.
 
2012-10-12 09:20:44 AM  

Dr.Mxyzptlk.: taurusowner
Or....we could just judge people not be the color of their skin but by the content of their charter, or in this case, mind.

Only a redneck, tea bagging fundamentalist would suggest that we rely on the "content of their character ..."


Only a Sith deals in absolutes
 
2012-10-12 09:20:46 AM  

MycroftHolmes: david_gaithersburg: MycroftHolmes: I would be curious to know how many of the people speaking against affirmative action are memebers of a traditionally repressed minority class.

Sure, Affirmative action is, by it's very nature, racist. But if you take away the racism that helps minorities without addressing the institutional and cultural racism that harms them, you are not helping the problem.

The problem is a good deal more complex than that, but I don't think simplistic stances like 'we should only judge people by their actions' and 'we should remove raced based decisions', while appealing to idealists, are practical or fair social policy

.
So what you are saying is that you feel guilty about your family's past and others should suffer for your guilt.

//Two wrongs don't make a right, or something like that.

No, i am not saying anything of the sort, nor am I part of the majority class (I am Asian, so somewhat neutral in this debate). My point is that today's society is not integrated, it is not a level playing field, institutional racism does exist. if he goal is to, over time, erode racial distinctions as being synonymous with educational and class distinctions, a policy of 'let's just ignore the last 100 years of history and the position that the majority has placed the minorities in and pretend everything is merit based' is naive in the extreme and misguided.

.
.

So you believe then that your children should be denied access to scholarships because in the past per capita way to many have been awarded to people of Asian decent. That should teach your future generations to be all edumacated and what nots.
 
2012-10-12 09:22:25 AM  

Silly Jesus: Bontesla: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: PallMall: Race, ethnicity, color, religion, etc should have NOTHING to do with getting in to college. Affirmative action hurts otherwise qualified candidates from getting there.

Completely agree. And it's horribly condescending when it's suggested that somehow we're hurt by it. I don't feel like my graduate education was negatively impacted by not having racial minorities in the problem. It was, however, dramatically enhanced by having some incredibly bright people around me from diverse educational backgrounds. Replacing one of them with a token black guy would have been detrimental.

Ha. If you think the white students were there only because of merit then you're part of the problem. White students, specifically affluent white students, are given the advantage since birth.

Take tracking as a great example. Schools that participate in tracking actually invest in the students they decide have the best opportunities for future achievement. Academics play a role - but so does parental involvement, parental education levels, student neatness, appearance, and so on.

Once selected as someone the school will track for success - the teachers are encouraged to befriend the families, tutor the children (or find tutuors), and separate that student from the herd.

And if you don't think your school tracks students then you weren't a chosen one. Most schools track.

There are many other examples of the types of advantages bestowed upon white students - specifically affluent white students. The race of a teacher plays a HUGE role in how that teacher will teach students of different races. In several studies - white teachers were shown to call on white students to answer questions more often. White teachers were more often willing to make exceptions for white students. Black teachers were harder on struggling black students than they were on white students.

A single bad teacher can set a student behind an entire academic year whereas a single good tea ...

So, essentially, if you're not smart enough to get into a good school, it's the fault of society, teachers, parents etc.


Is it the sole fault of teachers, parents, school, and so on? No. Do they play a role? Yes. Are students partly to blame? Yes.
 
2012-10-12 09:23:26 AM  

Dear Jerk: Studies have shown that minorities who got through college on affirmative action do just as well in their careers as other graduates from the same schools. That points out the fact that America is all about opportunity. I'd be willing to get rid of affirmative action if we could also get rid of nepotism and cronyism, which are exponentially more of a problem. In fact, affirmative action was created a slight remedy to nepotism and cronyism. If you're a mediocre white kid who didn't get admitted to the college of your choice, you can fight for real justice, or you can be practical and network better. You have that opportunity.

/ I got suckered in by Shelby Steele's 'Content of Their Character' when it came out. Until I realized that it assumes a level playing field. The level playing field is a given in conservative logic.


This is spot on. The whole idea of judging people based on their merit should only be applied to affirmative action if it can be equally applied to all other candidates as well. And since so much is based on interviews and rapport, and people naturally form rapport with people who are similar to them, it iwill be almost impossible to ever have a system that is entirely merit based.

Affirmative action may be a clumsy tool that can result in some negative consequence, but the need for some corrective mechanism to counteract institutional bias is undeniable, if the goal is an integrated, classless society of equal opportunity.
 
2012-10-12 09:23:44 AM  

legion_of_doo: Asians aren't discriminated against? Chinese exclusion act, Japanese internment, the use of diversity quotas to ban all but the upper echelon of Asians from any position?

Lunaville: Rodrigo Hernandez: While I agree with the idea of promoting education and opportunities for minorities, it would be better for all disadvantaged people, no matter their race, to get some sort of preference instead of basing it on race. Poor people, whether white, black, hispanic, or indians, are disadvantaged more greatly than an upper-middle class minority.

Your statement makes a certain amount of sense. When I was very young I opposed affirmative action. One of the smartest people at my high school was a black female. I thought, obviously, anyone would trip over themselves to accept her to their college or hire her. I thought affirmative action was insulting to people like her. Then I began to work at actual jobs versus, for instance, babysitting.

By the time I was 23 years old, I had done a 180. I had worked at places where I was not allowed to even provide an application to black people. I was required to say the business was out of applications. Resumes received from black people were not even kept on file. They were tossed directly into the trash. Funny thing about jobs like that, they manage to make the "acceptable" people allowed to work in such a place perfectly miserable. An owner/manager that dedicated to acting unjustly and inequitably certainly isn't going to treat the people s/he does hire fairly or respectfully.

I concede that other, non-race based, discrimination happens. After picking up a little experience and learning to stand my ground a bit, I worked in a retail store where I refused to have anything at all to do with applications. Personnel accepting applications had been directed to code the application indicating the race of the applicant and whether the applicant was fat. The store set a limited number of positions that could be held by non-white people and ...


While you are busy asserting that racism no longer exists except as a rare anomaly, if you will take a moment to reread your own post, you will realize that you yourself seem to find little value in hiring minorities beyond avoiding legal inconvenience.
 
2012-10-12 09:24:49 AM  
Affirmative action: More equal than equal.
 
2012-10-12 09:25:25 AM  
I can't remember what show I was watching, but these two guys were making the case to scrap AA as it is and move towards a socio-economic model that favors PEOPLE that are broke-ass. Doesn't matter what colour they are, but if they are poor and want to get edgjumacated, off they go.

To quote the great Michael Scott - "I'm collar blind".
 
2012-10-12 09:27:06 AM  

Bontesla: Ha. If you think the white students were there only because of merit then you're part of the problem. White students, specifically affluent white students, are given the advantage since birth.


So, do you genuinely think that affluent black students don't get the same or equivalent opportunities from birth?
That's why race is a shiatty determiner. Being poor is actually what causes most of the problems you're mentioning. (Except maybe the bit about how different teachers respond to different students).

If you gave preference based on parental income, I'd be a little less pissed than I am giving preference based on race. I've got my own slew of anecdotes about how parental income is irrelevant to some students.
 
2012-10-12 09:27:21 AM  
david_gaithersburg: So you believe then that your children should be denied access to scholarships because in the past per capita way to many have been awarded to people of Asian decent. That should teach your future generations to be all edumacated and what nots.

It depends on what my goal and perspective is. From a purely self centered standpoint, of course not. I want my family to have all the opportunities in the world. if i step beyond my ego centric view point and look at what is sustainable for our culture as a whole, if I value creating an inclusive culture of equal opportunity, then ues, I would support some type of corrective mechanism.

Don't get me wrong, I think affirmative action is a clumsy tool. But I think issues of racer and class are very much more complex than the very naive statement that we should get rid of affirmative action, because it is racist, but let's not do anything about all the other institutional racism out there.
 
2012-10-12 09:27:39 AM  

david_gaithersburg: Quick Fixer: david_gaithersburg: TimonC346:

I'm sure that's probably true--the problem is the alternative--which is zero representation of anyone but European or Asian descent at any high end American schools. Which then throws in our face AND highlights institutionalized racism all at the same time.

Considering where these kids are starting from, Affirmative Action is sort of like a necessary evil. It is inherently unfair to make up for the societal unfairness of simply being born a different color. I'm not sure if that bodes well for it being constitutional, but I certainly support it.

^^^^^^^^^^
..
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Where is"societal unfairness" mentioned...


Right there.
 
2012-10-12 09:29:22 AM  
If they really want to give people a leg up, don't base it on skin color, base it on economic status. Being poor makes it hard to succeed, regardless of your race. If a disadvantaged student can score as well as a privildged one, you know which one has the talent and the drive - and which one coasted.
 
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