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(SeattlePI)   Palestinian teenager throwing rocks across border is gunned down by Israelis. And by Palestinian I mean Mexican and by Israelis I mean Americans   (seattlepi.com) divider line 218
    More: Stupid, Mexican, Palestinians, Israelis, lethal force, special agents  
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9612 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Oct 2012 at 1:28 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-12 05:19:56 AM  

Shadune: Pray 4 Mojo: Shadune: The US has gone too far over the line in valuing property rights over human rights.

Yeah... ;'cause the kid was running away with flatscreen he had just stolen and they wasted him.


Land is property.
If we aren't protecting something at our borders, then why all the shooting?


Self defense apparently.
 
2012-10-12 05:37:54 AM  

Shadune: The US has gone too far over the line in valuing property rights over human rights.


Property rights weren't at issue here. Immigration law was, as well as the law governing dealings with police.

"Human rights" means nothing if it is code for your private opinion on how nicely people deserve to be treated. Apparently, most Americans embrace some idea of human rights that is consistent with shooting rock-throwing suspects, and ultimately rights have to be defined democratically. It's that whole "Govt. of the people, etc." concept.

The U.S. being "over the line" -- and "far" over it -- makes me wonder whose line you're using. I'm trying to picture other national borders I've visited where this might be handled more tenderly...

Japan -- Probably not a killing, but certainly a beating.
Korea -- Death
Singapore -- A beating, possibly followed by death.
Malaysia -- Don't want to think of it.
Thailand -- A beating and a possible killing, or if you have money on you, a beating and a robbing.
Cambodia -- Some combo of beating, killing and robbing.
U.A.E. -- Too lazy to chase you in the first place, and too incompetent to hit you, but no one would blame them for trying.
Saudi -- Like U.A.E., but the rock-throwing would seal your fate.
Spain -- A beating, possibly followed by death.
France -- Probably gentler than the U.S., unless you were obviously African.
Italy -- Hard to say, but I think they'd try to run you over with the cruiser, especially if you were African.

Obviously facetious and hand-waving, but I'd bet it's not far out. It's hard to compare, but for a border of its sort I'd bet the US-Mex border is policed more mercifully than average in this world.
 
2012-10-12 05:48:33 AM  
This derpfest isn't complete without 9beers. 9beers paging Mr 9beers.
 
2012-10-12 05:50:22 AM  

Nadie_AZ: PapaChester: [imageshack.us image 54x11]

I'll take a lot of criticism about my state, but this one is more about Federal Border Patrol than anything else.

Now, if you want to go after Jan Brewer, I'll accept that.

As the agents approached to investigate, people on the Mexican side of the border began throwing rocks at them and ignored orders to stop, the agency said.

Really? This is why it happened? Because what an American says on the US side of the border applies to Mexicans on the Mexico side of the border?


I don't care who you are, or where it happens...throwing rocks at men with guns is a good way to Darwin yourself.
 
2012-10-12 05:51:03 AM  
The men that we send to the Wall take an oath to do whatever they need to in order to keep the wildlings from ever crossing into our lands....
(It's possible I've been reading too much 'Game of Thrones' lately....)
 
2012-10-12 05:56:45 AM  

wickedragon: cman: Hard thing to deal with, really. Safety of the officers is certainly a concern. Throwing rocks isnt childs play; in fact, stoning was an old method of capital punishment.

These guys have to protect themselves. They could have been hurt or killed. The act of self defense is warranted on events like this.
As a person whose go-to response to kids being dicks is killing the shiat out of them I completely approve of this message.
I am sure the boys family will agree with you completely that this was the absolutely right response.
PS! You're a horrible person and should really think about who you are.


It IS sad the young man got killed. My libbie heart bleeds for him.

But 16 is old enough to know not to throw rocks at men with guns. If he wasn't throwing the rocks, the fault lies with those who WERE, not the agents firing back. And with the kids parents, who should've raised him better.

Heaving a rock at someone IS assault. And not just "technically legal-by-definition" assault.

Don't believe me? Stand still, and let me throw a few bricks at you, see how long it takes me to put you in the hospital...
 
2012-10-12 05:59:41 AM  

PunGent: wickedragon: cman: Hard thing to deal with, really. Safety of the officers is certainly a concern. Throwing rocks isnt childs play; in fact, stoning was an old method of capital punishment.

These guys have to protect themselves. They could have been hurt or killed. The act of self defense is warranted on events like this.
As a person whose go-to response to kids being dicks is killing the shiat out of them I completely approve of this message.
I am sure the boys family will agree with you completely that this was the absolutely right response.
PS! You're a horrible person and should really think about who you are.

It IS sad the young man got killed. My libbie heart bleeds for him.

But 16 is old enough to know not to throw rocks at men with guns. If he wasn't throwing the rocks, the fault lies with those who WERE, not the agents firing back. And with the kids parents, who should've raised him better.

Heaving a rock at someone IS assault. And not just "technically legal-by-definition" assault.

Don't believe me? Stand still, and let me throw a few bricks at you, see how long it takes me to put you in the hospital...


Dude!

Heaving a rock is the last bastion of self respect that a screwed-up-badly peep has (bit like all the peeps who die form tassers...)
 
2012-10-12 06:01:39 AM  
"You shall obey me and obey me NOW!!!"
 
2012-10-12 06:20:55 AM  
Lethal force should NEVER be used when there is no threat to the lives of the cops. People throwing rocks at you over a fence? Stand a little further from the fence. Also, why would you ever need to shoot someone in the back as they are running away?
 
2012-10-12 06:21:14 AM  

Representative of the unwashed masses: Get under cover, call your counterparts on the other side of the fence to take care of the issue.


You think the Mexicans are going to do anything?

erroraccessdenied.com

Pro-Tip: The Mexican Government actively aids and abets people who are seeking to illegally enter the United States.

doglover: They assaulted and disregarded agents after violating an international border.

Good rule of thumb: do none of those three things.


This.
 
2012-10-12 07:11:23 AM  

TWX: I think that the Border Patrol needs a new weapon for this kind of assault. They need a weapon that is effectively a skunk-smell grenade. Throw it back, when it hits and goes off everyone in the immediate vicinity smells absolutely horrendous for days on end. If you want to get really fancy, include bank-type dyes too, so that American officials can notify Mexican officials of the incident and if those Mexican officials want to find the people they'll probably have little difficulty doing so between the smell and the dye.

I agree that violating an international border and attacking border enforcement officials with thrown objects deserves a retaliation. I wish that it wasn't with firearms, but that's the most handy and immediately available took at the border officer's disposal, and you'd think that after a certain number of shooting incidents that people would understand that they probably will be shot at, and while the diplomats may publicly squeal and moan, they'll also rule the response to be perfectly justified.


We are talking about Mexicans in Mexico here......don't think showers are as luxurious as they are here...smell wouldn't mean much. They could have separate guns with beanbag rounds for these types of occasions, but I don't see that happening.
 
2012-10-12 07:37:51 AM  

unlikely: Have we been pushing Mexicans out of their homes to build settlements across what used to be the border?

No?

Then dump the dipshiat analogy.


The Mexicans tried to eradicate the US multiple times in the last 60 years and declared the eradication of the US as their political goal ? yes it's a dipshiat analogy.
 
2012-10-12 07:41:26 AM  

ThrobblefootSpectre: Ah yes, meanwhile Fortress Australia knowingly leaves boatloads (literally) of immigrants dying offshore on a weekly basis. And rounds up all those who make it onshore are rounded up into detention centers - Where sometimes they are allowed to start the naturalization process, and sometimes they are tortured or starved to death. Let's compare border control deaths, shall we?

Link

At the very least, we take some solace in the fact that we don't suck nearly as hard as Australia.


First off, if that was a troll or snark and I done messed up, then well done. Right, now that is out the way and if you are serious...

You are a farking idiot if you believe your post and swallowed that link's libtardian mega spin. Seriously, a farking idiot.
Australia is not to be blamed for vaaast majority of those deaths. The people on those boats are doing their utmost best to NOT get detected by Australian personnel, THAT is why they die when they run out of food/water/fuel or when their stupidly overcroweded boats capsize. Pretty damn hard to save a bunch of people in the sea if you don't damn well know where they are. Drownings are typically the fault of those on the illegal boats. If a boat is detected the arsewipes onboard have been known to intentionally damage their engines and the boat's hull so that it intentionally sinks, knowing that Australian personnel are obligated to obey the Law of the Sea and rescue them (thus making entry into Australia much more likely). Though they try, sometimes Australian peronnel can't rescue them all.

As to your claim of torture; only one mention of torture was made on that (bullshiat) site and that was in farking Indonesia, moran.
As to your starved to death claim; Site mentions no starvation. Yes, starvation has occurred in the past... due to detainee's voluntary hunger strikes. Everything is done to help stop/end such protests.
As to the listed deaths within detention centres; Yes, deaths in detention do happen, and are a small percentage of those detained. Notice how the cause of death is not mentioned for the vast majority? People die all the time, that it happens in a detention centre does not automatically indicate they were killed/tortured/starved intentionally or unintentionally.

/But you just keep spreading a shiatload of misinformation
//Asshat.
 
2012-10-12 07:45:37 AM  
Good!
 
2012-10-12 07:47:01 AM  

Barfmaker: he was shot three times in the back while climbing a ladder trying to cross the border back into Mexico

Well now, I bet he won't try that again.


Done in 2.......

A little more action like this and maybe they will stay the fark home..... No difference than some kid tossing rocks at a dog in his pin/while in his pin and getting mauled..... Cry me a farking river.....
 
2012-10-12 07:49:03 AM  
If you're stupid enough to throw rocks at openly armed men, you've fully earned your Darwin Award, and all humanity should thank whomever removed you from the gene pool for their service.
 
2012-10-12 07:49:04 AM  

God-is-a-Taco: Jose Rodriguez, the Mexican "John Smith" if ever there were one. 



Border agents are generally allowed to use lethal force against rock throwers.

That's... kind of disturbing. It should be age-restricted, I hope.


Nope. All ages are invited to throw friendship rocks. Latest trend is to write kind messages like "we love you" on the friendship rocks before hurling them to their recipient.
 
2012-10-12 07:54:57 AM  

doglover: This About That: FTFA: "As the agents approached to investigate, people on the Mexican side of the border began throwing rocks at them and ignored orders to stop, the agency said."

Here we go again with cops blowing people away for not doing as they are told. This has got to stop. That includes shooting Mexicans. Especially across an international border. Even in Arizona.


They assaulted and disregarded agents after violating an international border.

Good rule of thumb: do none of those three things.


Good rule of thumb: Don't murder people.
 
2012-10-12 08:02:06 AM  

taurusowner: Do they issue BP agents helmets?
Not so CSB. At an IP station in Iraq, one of the guys in another squad took off his ACH to fix the straps and got hit in the head with a rock thrown by some of the beggar kids. Apparently the concussion was bad enough that he got sent to Germany that week. Rocks are no joke.

\No, no one shot the kid
\\But "rock" doesn't always mean pebble, rocks can seriously fark someone up


Throwing the rock is an act of violence. We can't pretend it is a Ghandi like act of peaceful, non-violent protest. That said, the incident was handled correctly and honorably where you were in Iraq. The Border Patrol agents who discharged their firearms in this incident, at the least, should be dismissed from their jobs.
 
2012-10-12 08:04:39 AM  
The little idiot shouldn't have been tossing rocks then. They've got enough to worry about with the druggies and the cartels and everything else than to deal with his shiat.

/don't bring rocks to a gun fight
 
2012-10-12 08:29:08 AM  

Lunaville: taurusowner: Do they issue BP agents helmets?
Not so CSB. At an IP station in Iraq, one of the guys in another squad took off his ACH to fix the straps and got hit in the head with a rock thrown by some of the beggar kids. Apparently the concussion was bad enough that he got sent to Germany that week. Rocks are no joke.

\No, no one shot the kid
\\But "rock" doesn't always mean pebble, rocks can seriously fark someone up

Throwing the rock is an act of violence. We can't pretend it is a Ghandi like act of peaceful, non-violent protest. That said, the incident was handled correctly and honorably where you were in Iraq. The Border Patrol agents who discharged their firearms in this incident, at the least, should be dismissed from their jobs promoted.

 
2012-10-12 08:51:08 AM  
JerkyMeat Smartest
Funniest
2012-10-12 03:44:35 AM


Basically, the BP is a farking pussy and Americans should find out who he is and hunt him down.


Hey tough guy, why don't you lead that expedition and come back and tell us how your cunning plan worked out....
 
2012-10-12 08:52:03 AM  
*shrug* my infantry buddies used to shoot people for throwing rocks all the time.

That shiat can be lethal.
 
2012-10-12 08:56:11 AM  
Feelings I felt reading the headline:
Palestinian:Israeli - Outrage
Mexican:USA - Shame

idiots.

*sobs*

*drags feet in the dirt running home*
 
2012-10-12 08:57:20 AM  
Just as an FYI criminals, regardless of what you have been told, an international border offers very little ballistic protection.
 
2012-10-12 08:58:33 AM  

ShannonKW: Shadune: The US has gone too far over the line in valuing property rights over human rights.

Property rights weren't at issue here. Immigration law was, as well as the law governing dealings with police.

"Human rights" means nothing if it is code for your private opinion on how nicely people deserve to be treated. Apparently, most Americans embrace some idea of human rights that is consistent with shooting rock-throwing suspects, and ultimately rights have to be defined democratically. It's that whole "Govt. of the people, etc." concept.

The U.S. being "over the line" -- and "far" over it -- makes me wonder whose line you're using. I'm trying to picture other national borders I've visited where this might be handled more tenderly...

Japan -- Probably not a killing, but certainly a beating.
Korea -- Death
Singapore -- A beating, possibly followed by death.
Malaysia -- Don't want to think of it.
Thailand -- A beating and a possible killing, or if you have money on you, a beating and a robbing.
Cambodia -- Some combo of beating, killing and robbing.
U.A.E. -- Too lazy to chase you in the first place, and too incompetent to hit you, but no one would blame them for trying.
Saudi -- Like U.A.E., but the rock-throwing would seal your fate.
Spain -- A beating, possibly followed by death.
France -- Probably gentler than the U.S., unless you were obviously African.
Italy -- Hard to say, but I think they'd try to run you over with the cruiser, especially if you were African.

Obviously facetious and hand-waving, but I'd bet it's not far out. It's hard to compare, but for a border of its sort I'd bet the US-Mex border is policed more mercifully than average in this world.



Definitely enjoyed the read, but I'd say the "shot to death for tossing rocks" thing puts the US into that group of border policing you pointed out pretty neatly.

My line tends to be drawn somewhere around valuing a human life more than a pile of money, a toaster, or an arbitrarily drawn line on a map. It was a stupid kid doing a stupid thing that clearly caused zero harm to the shooter. Did the kid deserve to die for that?
 
2012-10-12 09:03:56 AM  
Just follow this simple rule: Do not throw rocks at armed men.
 
2012-10-12 09:20:39 AM  

Tatterdemalian: unlikely: Have we been pushing Mexicans out of their homes to build settlements across what used to be the border?

No?

Then dump the dipshiat analogy.

Americans pushed them out of their homes and off their land. Sure, it was two hundred years ago, but I have no problem making you pay for what my ancestors did.


Actually, we didn't. Mexicans who lived in the new territory of Texas were welcome to stay.

I'd like to see a north/south Korea DMZ between us and mexico. If you make it across the minefield you get to stay.
 
2012-10-12 09:24:12 AM  
Why did the chicken cross the road?
 
2012-10-12 09:25:06 AM  
I don't know how you idiots don't feel that assault with a deadly weapon shouldn't be responded to with equal or greater force? Do you want the Border Patrol agents to die? Do you want drug-runners to have free reign to enter and leave the country with no consequence? Once the Border Patrol backs out of rock throwing distance, what happens if the throwers take that as a sign of weakness and move forward to reclose the distance and keep throwing rocks, how far should these men have retreated within their own country where they are tasked with keeping it safe?
 
2012-10-12 09:26:17 AM  

Shadune: ShannonKW: Don't bring a rock to a gunfight


Ideally these goons would stop bringing guns to a rock fight.
The US has gone too far over the line in valuing property rights over human rights.


That is one plus I will give Israel - watch footage of their soldiers (armed to the max, with armour and air support) deal with Palestinian teenagers throwing rocks over the (was going to say 'border' but that isn't true) demarcation line. As a rule I respect their restraint.
 
2012-10-12 09:30:17 AM  

Girion47: I don't know how you idiots don't feel that assault with a deadly weapon shouldn't be responded to with equal or greater force? Do you want the Border Patrol agents to die? Do you want drug-runners to have free reign to enter and leave the country with no consequence? Once the Border Patrol backs out of rock throwing distance, what happens if the throwers take that as a sign of weakness and move forward to reclose the distance and keep throwing rocks, how far should these men have retreated within their own country where they are tasked with keeping it safe?


Maybe I'm missing a witty, clever joke here, but this post reeks of panic. The impression it gives is not very becoming to you.
 
2012-10-12 09:30:28 AM  

Langdon_777: Shadune: ShannonKW: Don't bring a rock to a gunfight


Ideally these goons would stop bringing guns to a rock fight.
The US has gone too far over the line in valuing property rights over human rights.

That is one plus I will give Israel - watch footage of their soldiers (armed to the max, with armour and air support) deal with Palestinian teenagers throwing rocks over the (was going to say 'border' but that isn't true) demarcation line. As a rule I respect their restraint.


The difference is, the US isn't kicking mexicans out of their homes and replacing them with Americans because we feel we need more land.
 
2012-10-12 09:37:23 AM  

Girion47: Langdon_777: Shadune: ShannonKW: Don't bring a rock to a gunfight


Ideally these goons would stop bringing guns to a rock fight.
The US has gone too far over the line in valuing property rights over human rights.

That is one plus I will give Israel - watch footage of their soldiers (armed to the max, with armour and air support) deal with Palestinian teenagers throwing rocks over the (was going to say 'border' but that isn't true) demarcation line. As a rule I respect their restraint.

The difference is, the US isn't kicking mexicans out of their homes and replacing them with Americans because we feel we need more land.


We accomplished our manifest destiny/land grab a while back. We are not inherently morally superior to others. Our nation is made up of humans just like every other nation. Our moral standing comes down to our choices. The choices we are making regarding immigration are reminiscent of the way we treated Irish immigrants during the great famine and Jewish immigrants seeking safe haven during the thirties and forties. Fifty years from now, while our descendants commit some novel variation of injustice, people will look back on this era and wonder how we could have acted in such a misguided manner.
 
2012-10-12 09:43:32 AM  
They pull a paper, you throw a rock
They throw a rock, you shoot one of theirs
They put one of your's in the hospital, you put one of theirs in the morge, the younger the better
That's the Texas way
 
2012-10-12 09:44:19 AM  
If you are throwing rocks at armed guards protecting a sacred territory then you don't want to live on this planet anymore
 
2012-10-12 09:53:15 AM  

Shadune: Did the kid deserve to die for that?


In the U.S. the cops aren't justified in shooting people on the principle that they "deserved" it. If that sounds like bullshiat to you, consider the number of times an American cop has been cleared of brutality charges using the fact that the victim deserved it as a defense. (n = 0) In the U.S., officers are authorized to use deadly force in accordance with the policy of the agency they serve, and that policy is subject, sooner or later, to the approval of an elected representative and the judiciary. The people have their say in how much force is proper, and they've had policies changed.

No policy authorizes a cop to shoot, taze, cuff, whack, or speak harshly to a suspect because the cop judges him to be a bad person, but because his behavior in the circumstances meets defined criteria. If you try to cross a police line and an officer shoves you away, it is not because you "deserve" to be punished by shoving, but because he has been authorized to use force to keep people out, and because your representatives think it necessary and the courts think it proper that bystanders be excluded from crime scenes, by being shoved out if necessary.
 
2012-10-12 09:54:12 AM  
Oh noes, I hope Mexico can produce more children to make up for the TRAGIC LOSS of this one!
 
2012-10-12 10:04:51 AM  

ceebeecates4: Nobody read TFA.

It seems that the kids were throwing rocks to prevent the border patrol from retrieving the drugs that were dropped by a fleeing crosser. Whether or not that calls for a lethal response is questionable, but if these kids were little cartel hoppers, the shooting probably just accelerated inevitability.

I'm not a fan of jack-booted border patrol thugs.

I'm even less a fan of the cartel.


That's about where I am. I have to wonder why the Border Patrol doesn't have a nonlethal or less lethal option. A couple flashbang 'nades or an acoustic weapon might have caused the hoppers to put down the rocks and get the hell out of there. It sounds more like the BP managed to properly identify a drug movement, the kids fled (and if the BP really wanted to kill people they could shot the kids when they were on the US side of the border and carrying drugs). The Mexicans then interfered with a police action on our side. I see no reason why our police should have to retreat from an action being conducted solely on our side of the border. I'd definitely prefer to see something used to scare the Mexicans off, but if you're going to start shiat on our side of the line, I'm fine with the BP finishing it.
 
2012-10-12 10:12:30 AM  
Don't bring rocks to a gun fight.
 
2012-10-12 10:14:02 AM  
media.reason.com
Senator John McLaughlin: Welcome to America!

*bang*
 
2012-10-12 10:16:15 AM  
"a 16-year-old boy drug smuggler was killed in the shooting"


FTFY. Anyone feel better now?
 
2012-10-12 10:24:00 AM  
Would this thread be different if everyone involved in the violent border intrusion were 40 years older?
 
2012-10-12 10:27:42 AM  

EZ Writer: "a 16-year-old boy drug smuggler was killed in the shooting"


FTFY. Anyone feel better now?


No, that just demonstrates that the most dangerous thing about marijuana is the police response to it.
 
2012-10-12 10:32:14 AM  

PapaChester: [imageshack.us image 54x11]


Its time has come; thank you.
 
2012-10-12 10:34:10 AM  

Amos Quito: Why did the chicken cross the road?


*BANG*
*BANG*
*BANG*
*BANG*
*BANG*
*BANG*
*BANG*

*reloads*
 
2012-10-12 10:37:32 AM  

Disposable Rob: EZ Writer: "a 16-year-old boy drug smuggler was killed in the shooting"


FTFY. Anyone feel better now?

No, that just demonstrates that the most dangerous thing about marijuana is the police response to it.


Not when you're talking about the border. The most dangerous thing about marijuana in the border regions are cartels like the Zetas. I don't know about you, but I don't want to wind up with my head on a pike outside of the police department in Juarez. At least with the cops I know that as long as I don't look suspicious or act a fool I won't have a problem.
 
2012-10-12 10:51:02 AM  

Disposable Rob: EZ Writer: "a 16-year-old boy drug smuggler was killed in the shooting"


FTFY. Anyone feel better now?

No, that just demonstrates that the most dangerous thing about marijuana is the police response to it.


"Drug war violence in Mexico took a life an average of every half hour last year in Mexico, the government estimates.

The administration of Felipe Calderon had resisted pressure to publish the death figures for months, but the Attorney General's Office finally posted the statistics on its website Wednesday.

The toll linked to the anti-cartel campaign launched by Calderon in 2006 continued to climb; there were 12,903 killings between January and September of 2011.

Total deaths stand at over 47,515, according to the government tally."

Your world must be quite a special place....
 
2012-10-12 10:52:54 AM  

doglover: This About That: FTFA: "As the agents approached to investigate, people on the Mexican side of the border began throwing rocks at them and ignored orders to stop, the agency said."

Here we go again with cops blowing people away for not doing as they are told. This has got to stop. That includes shooting Mexicans. Especially across an international border. Even in Arizona.


They assaulted and disregarded agents after violating an international border.


If all envolved had been civilians in someones backyard and the shooter ended up in court the court would likely decide that the shooter should be charged with murder since the person who got shot was posing no immediate threat. The "target" was leaving the scene, had his back to the shooter, and was not armed.(if we assume

Barfmaker: he was shot three times in the back while climbing a ladder trying to cross the border back into Mexico

is true.)
In those circumstances the shooter is committing a crime in most states is he not ?(we need federal standards legitimate use of deadly force in self defense. This variance from state to state is illogical)
 
2012-10-12 10:59:40 AM  
I have no problem with this. Throw rocks at a police officer from a location where you are immune to arrest, get shot instead. The Border Patrol has a right to defend itself.
 
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