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(Huffington Post)   Fed up Walmart wage slaves threaten to disrupt Black Friday. Shiat just got serious   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 259
    More: Followup, United Food, Wal-Mart, National Organization for Women, unfair labor practice, Terry O'Neill, wage slaves, hourly workers, flash mobs  
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11981 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Oct 2012 at 10:27 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-11 11:22:19 AM

sodomizer: Business found a better option: shift the labor offshore.

Wait until robotics gets more advanced.

The answer isn't unions. It has never been a workable approach. it isn't socialism either. We need to find a better solution, which in my view involves letting market forces work for us.


Shifting the labor offshore is a temporary solution. Eventually you run out of workers to exploit. Even China and India don't have infinite workforces.

Robotics is an interesting question. A sufficiently advanced robotic work force may abrogate the need for 40 hour work weeks to "earn yourself a living" altogether; there just won't be anything for people to do. At that point the real goal should be avoiding descending into feudalism.

"Letting market forces work for us" isn't an expression with a whole lot of meaning. A "socialism" involves market forces, and capitalism involves some degree of socialization. They're different points on the same line. True Laissez-faire capitalism will inevitably result in riots and people starving on the streets, and Marxism will never work unless find a better class of human - and then it's not needed anyway.
 
2012-10-11 11:22:22 AM

sodomizer: you have pee hands: If unions are too strong, they can price the businesses out.

Business found a better option: shift the labor offshore.

Wait until robotics gets more advanced.

The answer isn't unions. It has never been a workable approach. it isn't socialism either. We need to find a better solution, which in my view involves letting market forces work for us.


===========

So when are market forces going to start working for us? You mean those market forces that made Romney insanely wealthy? Like the tax structure that made it profitable for Mittens to destroy viable companies and shiat-can tens of thousands of workers? A tax code that penalizes production of useful goods and services, but rewards predatory private capital? Those kind of market forces?

How about those market forces that allow for off-shoring American jobs, but result it monster lawsuits if some nobody attempts to import cheaper goods produced overseas by those very same companies for resale on eBay? You mean that kind of "free market"?

Your ignorance is contemptible.
 
2012-10-11 11:22:43 AM

sodomizer: Silverstaff: They aren't paid a "reasonable rate", they are paid the absolute minimum that Wal-Mart can get away with paying them. It's minimum wage, or slightly above it if labor costs in the area are higher.

That's the nature of the economy, and that's exactly what other employers are paying them. If those employers were paying more, they wouldn't be at Wal-mart.

The people I see in Wal-mart aren't suffering. They may not be getting paid much, but they aren't doing much, either. It's a trade-off.

If we tried to pay everyone the same wage, we'd all be earning $12 an hour. Unions effect this kind of wealth redistribution, which results in more costs to employers, thus the jobs get shiattier and the management above is downgraded from "good" to "whoever will put up with this shiat."

That's in effect what shattered Detroit. When you can't win anyway because your labor costs are too high and labor uncertainty destroys any grand plans, you shift to option B, which is milk short-term cash out of the unstable situation.

Everyone loses. Except the union, and its new Mafia (or other organized crime equivalent) overlords.


Umm, what about Japanese and German unions? German unions for example, pay twice the amount as their American counterparts when you include benefit packages. Or did Detroit fail because they were shiatty run companies, like the rest of the country?
 
2012-10-11 11:23:00 AM

sodomizer: Unions destroy everything they touch.

They create a threat of economic terrorism to the companies who employ these workers, and pay them well given their abilities.

In the end, what happens is that costs go up to the consumer, competitiveness goes down, organized crime and corruption come in, and while the union workers are overpaid, they're no longer in a growth industry.

As a result only incompetents remain.

Look at what unions did to American automakers.


Perhaps the same could be said of all organized groups!

Your politics are as empty as your soul. Mankind poor ill-needs a CEO such as you!

BAH! What is a man, anyways?! A miserable pile of poorness! But enough talk, HAVE AT YOU!

/Alright, it needs work.
 
2012-10-11 11:23:03 AM
Here is my issue with the Unions, in a lot of cases (Wal Mart being one of them) the Unions can help improve wages and benefits, but the Unions with all their new members become monsters themselves and stop serving their members and only serve the Union. Example the UAW being absolutely beside themselves that the workers at the Nissan plant in Tennessee keep voting no to unionize.

/Also closed shop rules are bullshiat for seasonal employees nothing but a way for the Unions to get more dues for zero benefit
 
2012-10-11 11:23:20 AM
These strikes are an attempt by the unions to further their own political and financial agendas," he said, noting that the majority of Walmart's 1.4 million workers are pleased with too cowed to do anything that will jeapordize their jobs.

FTFH
 
2012-10-11 11:23:37 AM
Did nobody tell those workers that one of the Walton heirs bought an art museum?! FOR GOD'S SAKE, THINK OF THE ART MUSEUM!!!
 
2012-10-11 11:23:39 AM

sodomizer: Silverstaff: You know jack and shiat about people who work at Wal-Mart. Ever worked there?

You're claiming to know me and my experience. What's my second child's middle name?


Don't know and don't give a shiat. I do know you know zilch about the working poor because you exude that ignorance with your posts.

You blame the poor and the workers for the problems of America while ignoring the greed and myopia of management.

Go back to clutching your copy of Atlas Shrugged and watching FOX News tell you about the evil unions trying to start a communist revolution to whatever the talking point lies are for today.
 
2012-10-11 11:23:43 AM

HotWingConspiracy: sodomizer: Raising the minimum wage is a bad idea not because it's emotionally bad, but because it doesn't work.

Well, except that it just keeps working. All the nightmare scenarios that over-rich capitalists spout about increasing minimum wage never ever come to pass.


This.

Except for the fact that we are in the midst of one of the greatest economic catastrophes of ANY generation in history. Yet, people from the right and the left keep blaming Others for the shape we are in.

Get a clue. It's not Them. It's I, Me, Us.

Politics, Unions, Religions, etc. are, unfortunately, used as tools by individuals to promote their agendas.

Hold yourself accountable, and I can assure you, you'll be the happiest you could ever wish to be.
 
2012-10-11 11:24:10 AM

liam76: I would like to see your figures for lowering the number of peopel hired. Not many places like walmart have peopel sitting around they could get rid of.


This is what I don't get. So many people claim that "if we give them more money, they will hire more people". Bullshiat. They will hire the minimum amount to do the job, and that's it. Nobody hires more than necessary to do the job.
 
2012-10-11 11:24:44 AM

Mr. Coffee Nerves: Considering Walmart actively encourages new hires to apply for government benefits in the form of state-provided Medicaid in lieu of Walmart's ludicrously expensive and difficult-to-obtain private insurance, don't I, as a "shareholder," get a say?


"shareholder" of what? Wal-mart?
 
2012-10-11 11:26:12 AM

RedPhoenix122: While we're there, can we abolish all labor laws, and get paid in currency that we can only spend at the company store? Because that's what was happening before unions were formed.


Not true. You found a worst-case example, which the market corrected by depriving them of labor. Unions weren't necessary unless you wanted to raise the cost of the product to the end user.
 
2012-10-11 11:26:36 AM

Felgraf: sodomizer: Unions destroy everything they touch.

They create a threat of economic terrorism to the companies who employ these workers, and pay them well given their abilities.

In the end, what happens is that costs go up to the consumer, competitiveness goes down, organized crime and corruption come in, and while the union workers are overpaid, they're no longer in a growth industry.

As a result only incompetents remain.

Look at what unions did to American automakers.

Perhaps the same could be said of all organized groups!

Your politics are as empty as your soul. Mankind poor ill-needs a CEO such as you!

BAH! What is a man, anyways?! A miserable pile of poorness! But enough talk, HAVE AT YOU!

/Alright, it needs work.


You drain men's souls, and make them your wage-slaves.
 
2012-10-11 11:27:23 AM

liam76: Somebody working 40 hours a week isn't an "unproductive" member of society.


There's no such determination. If their forty hours a week don't result in any productive contribution, they're unproductive.

You can work 40 hours a week on making model battleships out of your own feces and it won't help the economy at all.
 
2012-10-11 11:27:37 AM
We should raise the minimum wage to $20/hr and be done with it.
 
2012-10-11 11:28:10 AM

sodomizer: Not true. You found a worst-case example, which the market corrected by depriving them of labor. Unions weren't necessary unless you wanted to raise the cost of the product to the end user.


The market didn't correct it, the people banded together and corrected it. Plus, what the market does correct usually takes far too long and costs too many lives.
 
2012-10-11 11:28:15 AM

Private_Citizen: Valiente: Walker: Easily replaceable.

Ironically, perhaps, a lot easier to replace than actual slaves, who were always in short supply and cost a lot more per capita than minimum wage.

Of course, it was just a one-time investment, apart from the sort-of food and sort-of shelter.

Funny you should mention food and shelter. The wages paid by Walmart to their wage slaves don't cover either in many cases - which is why so many Walmart workers rely on food stamps and housing assistance.

So Yes, wage slaves are cheaper than actual slaves. (And if they break, you kick em to the curb and get another one. Actual slaves had to be cared for as they represented a capital investment.)


I am just curious, why is walmart always singled out for paying their employees minimum wage. Do you think working at 7-11 or McDonalds pays that much better? It is not like Walmart is the only place in the world that pays people minimum wage.
 
2012-10-11 11:29:47 AM
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2012-10-11 11:29:48 AM
The people that are White Knighting for poor, oppressed Wal-Mart amuse me.

Any company can piss off its workers to the point they organize, and any company can break that organization.

In both cases it is usually more efficient (and profitable) to keep your employees happy.
 
2012-10-11 11:30:02 AM

sodomizer: liam76: Somebody working 40 hours a week isn't an "unproductive" member of society.

There's no such determination. If their forty hours a week don't result in any productive contribution, they're unproductive.

You can work 40 hours a week on making model battleships out of your own feces and it won't help the economy at all.


Dammit! I was almost done with a scale replica of the U.S.S. Massoftwoshiats.
 
2012-10-11 11:30:03 AM

Felgraf:

/Alright, it needs work.


Organized capital: The pinnacle of human existence
Organized labor: Thugs and criminals to be purged.
 
2012-10-11 11:30:37 AM

sodomizer: RedPhoenix122: While we're there, can we abolish all labor laws, and get paid in currency that we can only spend at the company store? Because that's what was happening before unions were formed.

Not true. You found a worst-case example, which the market corrected by depriving them of labor. Unions weren't necessary unless you wanted to raise the cost of the product to the end user.


Unions are part of the market. Why wouldn't they be?
 
2012-10-11 11:30:46 AM

mechgreg: I am just curious, why is walmart always singled out for paying their employees minimum wage. Do you think working at 7-11 or McDonalds pays that much better? It is not like Walmart is the only place in the world that pays people minimum wage.


Well, there's the other stuff, too. Unless I was unaware that 7-11, McDonald's, and many other companies regularly lock their employees inside?
 
2012-10-11 11:30:58 AM

RedPhoenix122: liam76: I would like to see your figures for lowering the number of peopel hired. Not many places like walmart have peopel sitting around they could get rid of.

This is what I don't get. So many people claim that "if we give them more money, they will hire more people". Bullshiat. They will hire the minimum amount to do the job, and that's it. Nobody hires more than necessary to do the job.


=================

Once all a person's needs and desires are met, they have zero incentive to engage in something risky, like starting a business. The tax cuts of the uber wealthy almost always end up in Cayman Island bank accounts, or asset bubbles, like bidding up the price of paintings created by artists who have been dead for 400 years.
 
2012-10-11 11:31:35 AM

RedPhoenix122: .

You drain men's souls, and make them your wage-slaves.


I really need to work on something like this for the next debate. Because, really, the role of Dracula fits preettyyyyy closely with what Romney did *for a living*.

"It is not by my hand that my corporate portfolio is once again given flesh. I was primaried by humans who wish to pay *me* tribute."
 
2012-10-11 11:31:46 AM

ShadowLAnCeR: I can't even fathom what it's like to work for Walmart


I worked at a Sam's Club for a while during college, and it wasn't that bad. I started at $7, which was a fat raise over the minimum wage ($4.25) I was pulling in at Brown's Chicken. By the time I left the place I was making $14 + change. The health insurance wasn't horrible, and there was a great stock purchase plan (they matched 15%, so if you bought stock, you automatically made 15% profit). They also had a better 401(k) match than my current corporate (non-retail) job. Most people were too dumb to take advantage of these perks though.

There were issues with stuff like breaks (which was resolved in a class action suit), but I think the lawsuits about promoting females was bullshiat. I think 60% of my bosses were female, including one of the GMs.
 
2012-10-11 11:31:50 AM

HotWingConspiracy: We had several merce- err, contracting firms in Iraq that are well seasoned to be Neo-Pinkertons.

And if you think something like that can't happen again, you haven't been paying attention.


Why do you need neo-Pinkertons? The originals are still around today.
 
2012-10-11 11:32:03 AM

shifty lookin bleeder: sodomizer: Unions destroy everything they touch.

Like 72 hour, 6 day work weeks, child labor, unregulated working conditions, indentured emploment....

FYI, history didn't start in 1981


But it didn't stop in 1940, either.
 
2012-10-11 11:32:21 AM
All I remember about Walmart is that my buddy that worked there also had foodstamps. Even with the job, he qualified for foodstamps.
 
2012-10-11 11:32:25 AM

Tom_Slick: Here is my issue with the Unions, in a lot of cases (Wal Mart being one of them) the Unions can help improve wages and benefits, but the Unions with all their new members become monsters themselves and stop serving their members and only serve the Union. Example the UAW being absolutely beside themselves that the workers at the Nissan plant in Tennessee keep voting no to unionize.

/Also closed shop rules are bullshiat for seasonal employees nothing but a way for the Unions to get more dues for zero benefit


Considering how different Us unions work compared to the rest of the world, the issue at hand seems to be ignorance and greed rather than unions themselves. I mean if union's only represent themselves rather than their workers, they arn't unions.
 
2012-10-11 11:32:29 AM

wingnut396: Felgraf:

/Alright, it needs work.

Organized capital: The pinnacle of human existence
Organized labor: Thugs and criminals to be purged.


Yeah that dichotomy really never made sense to me. "Wait, isn't organized labor basically just a corporation in and of itself? And they're simply selling their collective labor? ... Why should that be illegal again?"
 
2012-10-11 11:33:16 AM
A flash mob on Black Friday at a Walmart? Yeah, that would be noticeable....
 
2012-10-11 11:33:27 AM

Fissile: RedPhoenix122: liam76: I would like to see your figures for lowering the number of peopel hired. Not many places like walmart have peopel sitting around they could get rid of.

This is what I don't get. So many people claim that "if we give them more money, they will hire more people". Bullshiat. They will hire the minimum amount to do the job, and that's it. Nobody hires more than necessary to do the job.

=================

Once all a person's needs and desires are met, they have zero incentive to engage in something risky, like starting a business. The tax cuts of the uber wealthy almost always end up in Cayman Island bank accounts, or asset bubbles, like bidding up the price of paintings created by artists who have been dead for 400 years.


Where do you think the cash supposedly deposited in cayman banks goes? Does it sit in a vault? When you buy a painting, you give money to the seller. What does the seller do with it? Burn it?
 
2012-10-11 11:33:28 AM
How will I buy my iPhone?
 
2012-10-11 11:34:24 AM

EyeballKid: mechgreg: I am just curious, why is walmart always singled out for paying their employees minimum wage. Do you think working at 7-11 or McDonalds pays that much better? It is not like Walmart is the only place in the world that pays people minimum wage.

Well, there's the other stuff, too. Unless I was unaware that 7-11, McDonald's, and many other companies regularly lock their employees inside?


So basically they're all Triangle Shirtwaist factories waiting to happen?.
 
2012-10-11 11:34:49 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: Where do you think the cash supposedly deposited in cayman banks goes? Does it sit in a vault? When you buy a painting, you give money to the seller. What does the seller do with it? Burn it?


Will you argue that either of those two ventures strengthens the economy as much as starting a new business?

Risky ventures are good for the economy. There isn't much incentive to engage in them if you're already rich as fark, though.
 
2012-10-11 11:35:01 AM

stonicus: $10/hr on a 40 hour work week gets you $20,800/year before taxes. Below the poverty line.


And that's assuming they're full-time. Isn't WalMart one of the ones that has employees work 30-hour weeks to avoid having to supply benefits to their workers?
 
2012-10-11 11:35:21 AM

SN1987a goes boom: HotWingConspiracy: We had several merce- err, contracting firms in Iraq that are well seasoned to be Neo-Pinkertons.

And if you think something like that can't happen again, you haven't been paying attention.

Why do you need neo-Pinkertons? The originals are still around today.


They might shy away from goon-squadery though.
 
2012-10-11 11:36:11 AM

EyeballKid: mechgreg: I am just curious, why is walmart always singled out for paying their employees minimum wage. Do you think working at 7-11 or McDonalds pays that much better? It is not like Walmart is the only place in the world that pays people minimum wage.

Well, there's the other stuff, too. Unless I was unaware that 7-11, McDonald's, and many other companies regularly lock their employees inside?


Also, Walmart is the 800lb gorilla of Retail. When you're the biggest in a group, you often get singled out as an example of that group.
 
2012-10-11 11:36:14 AM
Instead of a strike they could just refuse to clean the store and scatter merchandise around where no one can find it.

Oh, wait...
 
2012-10-11 11:36:24 AM

EyeballKid: mechgreg: I am just curious, why is walmart always singled out for paying their employees minimum wage. Do you think working at 7-11 or McDonalds pays that much better? It is not like Walmart is the only place in the world that pays people minimum wage.

Well, there's the other stuff, too. Unless I was unaware that 7-11, McDonald's, and many other companies regularly lock their employees inside?


That may be, but reading the article it seems like the only issue they are fighting for is wages. Which goes back to my question, how many other companies pay their employees minimum wage?

Plus it makes me wonder, what jobs should provide you with a wage you should live on and what ones shouldn't? I mean a lot of jobs that pay minimum wage typically are good for people who are under 18 and usually don't need the cash to totally support themselves, but want to make some extra cash and get some work experience. If you raise minimum wage so that it is enough that someone can live off of, how are those young people supposed to get work experience. Should a paper boy get $18/hour?
 
2012-10-11 11:37:43 AM

MadMonk: A flash mob on Black Friday at a Walmart? Yeah, that would be noticeable....


Only if you lock the doors and not place anything in the aisles.
 
2012-10-11 11:37:59 AM

Silverstaff: Don't know


Exactly.
 
2012-10-11 11:39:20 AM

mechgreg: EyeballKid: mechgreg: I am just curious, why is walmart always singled out for paying their employees minimum wage. Do you think working at 7-11 or McDonalds pays that much better? It is not like Walmart is the only place in the world that pays people minimum wage.

Well, there's the other stuff, too. Unless I was unaware that 7-11, McDonald's, and many other companies regularly lock their employees inside?

That may be, but reading the article it seems like the only issue they are fighting for is wages. Which goes back to my question, how many other companies pay their employees minimum wage?

Plus it makes me wonder, what jobs should provide you with a wage you should live on and what ones shouldn't? I mean a lot of jobs that pay minimum wage typically are good for people who are under 18 and usually don't need the cash to totally support themselves, but want to make some extra cash and get some work experience. If you raise minimum wage so that it is enough that someone can live off of, how are those young people supposed to get work experience. Should a paper boy get $18/hour?


Many places (not all) base their pay scales on what the current minimum wage is. One place I worked started the scale at .10 over minimum wage, and then slowly progressed to $14/hr
 
2012-10-11 11:40:18 AM

Heist: I honestly don't care much about unions one way or the other, but any opportunity to attack giant corporations AND disgusting, shameless materialism in one go is awesome in my book.


The best part of when a major union fights a company is that both sides are giant, faceless, predatory corporations trying to exploit their workers. The fight is really about which set of corrupt overlords gets the better deal.
 
2012-10-11 11:40:39 AM

Dr Dreidel: stonicus: $10/hr on a 40 hour work week gets you $20,800/year before taxes. Below the poverty line.

And that's assuming they're full-time. Isn't WalMart one of the ones that has employees work 30-hour weeks to avoid having to supply benefits to their workers?


HAha, wow, I'm WAY below the poverty line, then. ~ $19,000 a year, woooo!

I should really figure out if I qualify for food stamps.
/Since I am a graduate student, I may not, due to being a 'student'. Still, would be good to check...
//Ah well, at least the physics Ph.D. will make up for it. YAY SCIENCE.
 
2012-10-11 11:41:15 AM

Debeo Summa Credo:

Where do you think the cash supposedly deposited in cayman banks goes? Does it sit in a vault? When you buy a painting, you give money to the seller. What does the seller do with it? Burn it?


Its used a collateral in order to get a government secured loan to buy a functioning business, load it down with expansion loans backed by the the employee's pension accounts which are used to pay out fees back into the same Cayman bank account.
 
2012-10-11 11:41:40 AM

ph0rk: Debeo Summa Credo: Where do you think the cash supposedly deposited in cayman banks goes? Does it sit in a vault? When you buy a painting, you give money to the seller. What does the seller do with it? Burn it?

Will you argue that either of those two ventures strengthens the economy as much as starting a new business?

Risky ventures are good for the economy. There isn't much incentive to engage in them if you're already rich as fark, though.


What ventures? The cash deposited in cayman banks is invested/lent by those banks elsewhere. The cash used to buy a painting is then used in some other way by the seller, it doesn't disappear.

Oh, and you are wrong regarding risk aversion and wealth. The more wealth you have, the more ventures you can invest in, resulting in a less volatile return. A less wealthy person may only have the means to invest in one venture, which results in a significantly more risky portfolio overall.
 
2012-10-11 11:42:01 AM

Silverstaff: They don't want workers making living wages, they want maximum profits at any cost. The typical Wal-Mart has employees at it receiving $450,000 in food stamps every year.


Sweet biscuits!!! I'm heading on down to Wal-Mart now and applying for a job. I could use the raise. Not sure what I'll do with close to 1/2 million in food stamps though but I'll figure that out later.
 
2012-10-11 11:42:33 AM

Felgraf: Because, really, the role of Dracula fits preettyyyyy closely with what Romney did *for a living*.


Helped save Europe from a muslim invasion?

Because that's what Dracula did.
 
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