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(Boston.com)   Old and Busted: Bank impounds car. New Hotness: American hedge fund impounds an Argentinian naval flagship   (boston.com) divider line 30
    More: Cool, Argentina, fire sale, bad debts, financiers, bondholders  
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1836 clicks; posted to Politics » on 11 Oct 2012 at 1:00 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



30 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2012-10-11 11:11:20 AM  
Calling a training vessel a flag ship is a bit of a stretch for this era. So is the hedge fund trying to use it as leverage to get owed money out of a country.
 
DAR [TotalFark]
2012-10-11 12:23:19 PM  
New Hotness: How a vulture fund is going to get themselves a Tall Ship to sell and recover about 10 million from the Argentine government on it's defaulted debt.
 
2012-10-11 01:07:51 PM  
The boat is called Libtard?
 
2012-10-11 01:08:39 PM  
The A.R.A. Libertad is a commissioned warship of the Argentine Navy. Ghana is treading a very fine line here: Argentina may well be justified in having their ship returned to them by any means necessary, including military action.

/Don't fark with warships.
//And yes, it is armed.
 
2012-10-11 01:12:03 PM  
The Argies are getting pissed at the American hedge fund operator, but shouldn't they be biatching at Ghana? Ghana is the one that apparently sees legitimacy in the hedge fund's claim and is enforcing it. Maybe the Argies should sail a couple modern warships into the harbor and see if the judge rethinks it.
 
2012-10-11 01:17:17 PM  
Is the flagship of the Argentine navy the one with the sails on it? Was it out there looking for Spanish Galleons?
 
2012-10-11 01:21:05 PM  

cgraves67: The Argies are getting pissed at the American hedge fund operator, but shouldn't they be biatching at Ghana? Ghana is the one that apparently sees legitimacy in the hedge fund's claim and is enforcing it. Maybe the Argies should sail a couple modern warships into the harbor and see if the judge rethinks it.


I would expect them to do that, if this isn't resolved quickly. And it's not like the Ghana Navy could effectively oppose them, either: Mostly all they have is short range, lightly armed patrol boats.
 
2012-10-11 01:24:23 PM  
[Scary] Hedge fund acquires warship to enforce debt collection.
 
2012-10-11 01:24:46 PM  
Man, Lizard Lick towing is really escalating their business quickly.
 
2012-10-11 01:25:33 PM  

imontheinternet: Is the flagship of the Argentine navy the one with the sails on it? Was it out there looking for Spanish Galleons?


Yeah, really, it's not like any real navy would have an old ship like that still in service...

www.strategypage.com
 
2012-10-11 01:30:09 PM  

dittybopper: cgraves67: The Argies are getting pissed at the American hedge fund operator, but shouldn't they be biatching at Ghana? Ghana is the one that apparently sees legitimacy in the hedge fund's claim and is enforcing it. Maybe the Argies should sail a couple modern warships into the harbor and see if the judge rethinks it.

I would expect them to do that, if this isn't resolved quickly. And it's not like the Ghana Navy could effectively oppose them, either: Mostly all they have is short range, lightly armed patrol boats.


Considering the argentines would have to sail across the south atlantic to the shores of Ghana, those might be good enough.

The argies should just pay their damn debts.
 
2012-10-11 01:34:39 PM  

Lundah: imontheinternet: Is the flagship of the Argentine navy the one with the sails on it? Was it out there looking for Spanish Galleons?

Yeah, really, it's not like any real navy would have an old ship like that still in service...

[www.strategypage.com image 850x671]


They have yet to discover steam power. They should up their science production.
 
2012-10-11 01:38:54 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: dittybopper: cgraves67: The Argies are getting pissed at the American hedge fund operator, but shouldn't they be biatching at Ghana? Ghana is the one that apparently sees legitimacy in the hedge fund's claim and is enforcing it. Maybe the Argies should sail a couple modern warships into the harbor and see if the judge rethinks it.

I would expect them to do that, if this isn't resolved quickly. And it's not like the Ghana Navy could effectively oppose them, either: Mostly all they have is short range, lightly armed patrol boats.

Considering the argentines would have to sail across the south atlantic to the shores of Ghana, those might be good enough.

The argies should just pay their damn debts.


These are decade old debts that most countries and creditors forgave long ago in order to help Argentina get its economy back on line. Most countries would've laughed this hedge fund guy out of court. I suspect they are giving kickbacks to this particular judge.
 
2012-10-11 01:43:06 PM  

cgraves67: Debeo Summa Credo: dittybopper: cgraves67: The Argies are getting pissed at the American hedge fund operator, but shouldn't they be biatching at Ghana? Ghana is the one that apparently sees legitimacy in the hedge fund's claim and is enforcing it. Maybe the Argies should sail a couple modern warships into the harbor and see if the judge rethinks it.

I would expect them to do that, if this isn't resolved quickly. And it's not like the Ghana Navy could effectively oppose them, either: Mostly all they have is short range, lightly armed patrol boats.

Considering the argentines would have to sail across the south atlantic to the shores of Ghana, those might be good enough.

The argies should just pay their damn debts.

These are decade old debts that most countries and creditors forgave long ago in order to help Argentina get its economy back on line. Most countries would've laughed this hedge fund guy out of court. I suspect they are giving kickbacks to this particular judge.


Or the country's government. A new form of collections that is effectively sanctioned piracy? Interesting and ironic that the target is a sail ship. I suppose if they settle for 10 cents on the dollar and split it with Ghana then it is a good investment. Perhaps next they can partner with Somalia
 
2012-10-11 02:05:30 PM  
So wait, are corporations people or are the sovereign nations now?
 
2012-10-11 02:09:16 PM  

Lundah: imontheinternet: Is the flagship of the Argentine navy the one with the sails on it? Was it out there looking for Spanish Galleons?

Yeah, really, it's not like any real navy would have an old ship like that still in service...

[www.strategypage.com image 850x671]


Most senior and decorated ship in the US Navy.
 
2012-10-11 02:16:51 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Considering the argentines would have to sail across the south atlantic to the shores of Ghana, those might be good enough.


I don't know. The Argentines have 4 modern-ish destroyers, and a number of corvettes, along with 2 modern diesel electric subs, and they have a fleet replenishment ship to refuel/rearm them.

I could see the Argies sending a sub to the Accra/Tema area to reconnoiter, then sailing a fleet of their destroyers/corvettes. It's approximately 4,200 nautical miles, so they could go sortie with their fleet oiler, sailing at about 15 knots. They could get replenished near Ghana, but far enough away that they wouldn't be noticed. It would take them about 12 days to get there and get set.

Then you charge into the area at 25+ knots, put a crew aboard the sailing ship, and leave. Perhaps bring an ocean going tug if necessary (the Argentine Navy has 4 of them). Any ship that tries to stop you by force is sunk.

Another asset to bring would be the ARA Hercules, which is a destroyer modified to be a troop transport/cargo/helicopter ship.
 
2012-10-11 02:21:49 PM  

dittybopper: I would expect them to do that, if this isn't resolved quickly. And it's not like the Ghana Navy could effectively oppose them, either: Mostly all they have is short range, lightly armed patrol boats.


why go all the way to ghana? the caymans is closer.
 
2012-10-11 02:27:50 PM  

not5am: why go all the way to ghana? the caymans is closer.


the argentines are well aware of what happens when they decide to take military action against british islands in the western hemisphere.
 
2012-10-11 02:47:18 PM  

tlchwi02: not5am: why go all the way to ghana? the caymans is closer.

the argentines are well aware of what happens when they decide to take military action against british islands in the western hemisphere.


Not only that, but their ship is impounded in Ghana, not the Caymans.
 
2012-10-11 02:55:57 PM  

cgraves67: Debeo Summa Credo: dittybopper: cgraves67: The Argies are getting pissed at the American hedge fund operator, but shouldn't they be biatching at Ghana? Ghana is the one that apparently sees legitimacy in the hedge fund's claim and is enforcing it. Maybe the Argies should sail a couple modern warships into the harbor and see if the judge rethinks it.

I would expect them to do that, if this isn't resolved quickly. And it's not like the Ghana Navy could effectively oppose them, either: Mostly all they have is short range, lightly armed patrol boats.

Considering the argentines would have to sail across the south atlantic to the shores of Ghana, those might be good enough.

The argies should just pay their damn debts.

These are decade old debts that most countries and creditors forgave long ago in order to help Argentina get its economy back on line. Most countries would've laughed this hedge fund guy out of court. I suspect they are giving kickbacks to this particular judge.


Are you an international bankruptcy lawyer? Most creditors settled on 30 cents on the dollar because they figured it was the best they could get given that argentina is a sovereign country, and they had no way of forcing Argentina to pay back what it actually borrowed.

This hedge fund found a way. Why would it be laughed out of court when the creditor had a legitimate claim against a debt incurred by a country?
 
2012-10-11 03:12:18 PM  

cgraves67: Debeo Summa Credo: dittybopper: cgraves67: The Argies are getting pissed at the American hedge fund operator, but shouldn't they be biatching at Ghana? Ghana is the one that apparently sees legitimacy in the hedge fund's claim and is enforcing it. Maybe the Argies should sail a couple modern warships into the harbor and see if the judge rethinks it.

I would expect them to do that, if this isn't resolved quickly. And it's not like the Ghana Navy could effectively oppose them, either: Mostly all they have is short range, lightly armed patrol boats.

Considering the argentines would have to sail across the south atlantic to the shores of Ghana, those might be good enough.

The argies should just pay their damn debts.

These are decade old debts that most countries and creditors forgave long ago in order to help Argentina get its economy back on line. Most countries would've laughed this hedge fund guy out of court. I suspect they are giving kickbacks to this particular judge.


Exactly. there are few nasty "vulture capital" firms that specialize in buying up old, and presumably worthless soveriegn debt at pennies on the dollar and then trying to seize stuff owned by the country, or freeze their overseas bank accounts to satisfy them. Usually they focus on 3rd world bananna republics. Going after Argentina is...ambitious
 
2012-10-11 03:28:53 PM  

dittybopper: Not only that, but their ship is impounded in Ghana, not the Caymans.


except the hedge fund is in the caymans. go after the trolls that's bringing the suit. does argentina have only 1 ship?
 
2012-10-11 04:04:06 PM  

not5am: dittybopper: Not only that, but their ship is impounded in Ghana, not the Caymans.

except the hedge fund is in the caymans. go after the trolls that's bringing the suit. does argentina have only 1 ship?


The hedge fund isn't actually *IN* the Caymans. They might have a small "home office" there for legal purposes, but the head of that hedge fund, Paul Singer, is an American, and he seems to live in Manhattan, according to the FEC records for his campaign contributions. Also, the hedge fund itself is based in NYC, so the Cayman Island office is either just a post office box, or a small token office for legal purposes.
 
2012-10-11 04:55:59 PM  

not5am: dittybopper: Not only that, but their ship is impounded in Ghana, not the Caymans.

except the hedge fund is in the caymans. go after the trolls that's bringing the suit. does argentina have only 1 ship?


Why don't they sell a ship and pay back their farking debt? Seriously, everybody here is on the side of the deadbeat? Figures.
 
2012-10-11 05:00:46 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: not5am: dittybopper: Not only that, but their ship is impounded in Ghana, not the Caymans.

except the hedge fund is in the caymans. go after the trolls that's bringing the suit. does argentina have only 1 ship?

Why don't they sell a ship and pay back their farking debt? Seriously, everybody here is on the side of the deadbeat? Figures.


Weren't you defending Romney when he paid himself and the other executives at Bain bonuses rather than making debt payments?
 
2012-10-11 05:44:26 PM  

Philip Francis Queeg: Weren't you defending Romney when he paid himself and the other executives at Bain bonuses rather than making debt payments?


in his defense, the hedge fund did get court judgements in the US and Britain their favor. it sounds like Argentina's fault for not properly retiring their defunct debt.

/speaking of romney, i wonder if his ira is invested in the hedge fund
 
2012-10-11 07:02:19 PM  
Oh boo hoo, a government defaults on its debts and then has tuff repoed.

Cry me a river.
 
2012-10-11 07:44:34 PM  

Philip Francis Queeg: Debeo Summa Credo: not5am: dittybopper: Not only that, but their ship is impounded in Ghana, not the Caymans.

except the hedge fund is in the caymans. go after the trolls that's bringing the suit. does argentina have only 1 ship?

Why don't they sell a ship and pay back their farking debt? Seriously, everybody here is on the side of the deadbeat? Figures.

Weren't you defending Romney when he paid himself and the other executives at Bain bonuses rather than making debt payments?


Bain and Romney didn't borrow any money, did they? A firm they controlled did.

And the lenders to that firm knew going in who the obligor was on the loan they were providing, and they knew Bain and Romney weren't going to dig into their pockets to pay back the loan of the firm went belly up.

Lenders to Argentina expected going in that the full faith and credit of the sovereign state of Argentina would back the loan.
 
2012-10-12 07:22:25 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: not5am: dittybopper: Not only that, but their ship is impounded in Ghana, not the Caymans.

except the hedge fund is in the caymans. go after the trolls that's bringing the suit. does argentina have only 1 ship?

Why don't they sell a ship and pay back their farking debt? Seriously, everybody here is on the side of the deadbeat? Figures.


Seizing a warship has implications beyond merely collecting on a debt. It could be construed as an act of war.

It's one thing to freeze assets in a bank, quite another to take a naval ship. It would be different if it was a merchant ship owned by the government of Argentina, or cargo on a merchant ship that is being sold or purchased by the government of Argentina. That would be perfectly kosher.

Even when attempting to collect on a legitimate debt, there are some things you just do not do. You don't kidnap a debtors kids in order to force him to pay up. This falls under the same idea.

I'm not blaming the hedge fund itself (though they have used what others consider unethical practices to recover debts), I'm blaming the Ghanaian judge for being stupid enough to put his country at risk.
 
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