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(USA Today)   "The evidence shows beyond any doubt that the US Postal Service ... ran the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful ... program ... ever seen." If only they were talking about the mail   ( usatoday.com) divider line
    More: Sad, U.S. Postal Service, George Hincapie, United States Anti-Doping Agency, Floyd Landis, International Cycling Union, international federation, World Anti-Doping Agency, Tour de France  
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3777 clicks; posted to Sports » on 10 Oct 2012 at 4:23 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-10 06:12:28 PM  

JohnBigBootay: Where are the legions of 'never failed a test!' guys today?


they all forgot bicycles have 2 wheels by now.
 
2012-10-10 06:13:31 PM  

whistleridge: roc6783: expobill: whistleridge: t And I guess I feel like I'm increasingly in the the 'rebuild the model to incorporate doping' school. Kind of like pot: legalizse it, regulate it, and allow it, and it's no longer a scandal.

the problem with doping in sports was too many kids were dying after injecting steroids, so the US Senate stepped in and had these hearing which served it's purpose, kids stopped dying!

Many clean cyclist have won major races in the past and present- i'm happy!

It's one of the few times "Think of the CHILDREN!!!" is not overprotective hand wringing. If professionals are allowed to overtly embrace the use of performance enhancers, then college and high school athletes will be all over it. An adult making a semi-informed decision to trade better performance for their health is dumb, but somewhat justifiable, a kid doing the same is unacceptable in our society.

Is it bad that my primary reaction to this (meaning both this comment and the whole fuss about Lance) is 'meh'? Because it is. And I'm not trying to be inflammatory or anything. I just. don't. care. There are so many worse problems in the world than one dude in funny pants (or one subset of dudes in funny pants) taking something to ride a bike 5 minutes faster up a hill. I just can't bring myself to care one way or the other.



Then what are you doing in this thread? Go fix the world.
 
2012-10-10 06:17:58 PM  

Nabb1: that


For his final tour "victory", you have to drop down to 15th place to find a 3 man podium of people who have never been associated with doping.

/never associated means not even named in a scandal
//it might be 13th... i looked it up because I managed a TDF fantasy league for a few years
///yes, there are cycling fantasy leagues.
 
2012-10-10 06:21:18 PM  
So all the dopers are rolling over and making up shiat about Lance to avoid their own suspensions. And we're surprised by this? C'mon. This is all hearsay.
 
2012-10-10 06:22:33 PM  
i was at a sports bar during the early 2000 and someone asked what sport's team do I hate the most
without blinking i said "USPS cycling, they are all cheaters!"


i remember posting "cheater" and "he only races in JUly" in every TDF thread since fark started and getting very unfriendly responses and blocked.....i I wish one of these "cycling experts" would respond here.
 
2012-10-10 06:26:07 PM  

Bronzed War God:
//it might be 13th... i looked it up because I managed a TDF fantasy league for a few years
///yes, there are cycling fantasy leagues.


i never heard of that, good for you and the sport,
and maybe for fun i might join next year and select valverde or Movistar -ofcourse!
 
2012-10-10 06:30:14 PM  

Foxxinnia: We just need a sport where you can dope as much as you want and have them go buck wild.


Ultimate Frisbee
 
2012-10-10 06:30:28 PM  

Account Created To Respond To Your Idiocy: Wow, I'm only on like page 50 and it just keeps getting juicier. I have been a cyclist for over 30 years, and I knew about doping long before Armstrong. I always knew he was a fraud because what he did was impossible without some kind of enhancement. The fanbois tend to forget that he sucked at stage racing until his "miracle" tour. DopeStrong and LieStrong about it.
Also, direct link to PDF here:

href="http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/ReasonedDecision.pdf"


Funny how most of that information isn't admissible in a court of law. The USADA, on the other hand, is fee to cut any deals they like, using any tactics available.

What would surprise me is if this is the end of it, or whether the USADA will go on wasting our tax dollars on this crapola. Why not go further back while they're ignoring the statute of limitations?
 
2012-10-10 06:30:50 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Actually the US Postal Service is pretty amazing. If they weren't being forced by Congress to set aside 30 years of pensions for people they haven't even hired yet, they'd be fine financially, as well.


Politics tab is to the right. Take your incorrect understanding over there.
 
2012-10-10 06:33:40 PM  

JosephFinn: So all the dopers are rolling over and making up shiat about Lance to avoid their own suspensions. And we're surprised by this? C'mon. This is all hearsay.


I suspect you are using sarcasm.

At any rate that defense worked ok when it was Landis. Not so much when Hamilton got on board. And not at all when you have the whole freakin' team. Anyway, now we are supposed to believe that everyone lance ever so much as took a sunday bike ride with have all gotten together to make up the same lie about him. The man is utterly delusional. The goddam sakatchewan lumberjack olympics doesn't have that many axes to grind.
 
2012-10-10 06:34:33 PM  

Marcus Aurelius:

Funny how most of that information isn't admissible in a court of law. The USADA, on the other hand, is fee to cut any deals they like, using any tactics available.

What would surprise me is if this is the end of it, or whether the USADA will go on wasting our tax dollars on this crapola. Why not go further back while they're ignoring the statute of limitations?


this topic has been under investigation since 2006 and took this long for these results
 
2012-10-10 06:36:38 PM  

expobill: Marcus Aurelius:

Funny how most of that information isn't admissible in a court of law. The USADA, on the other hand, is fee to cut any deals they like, using any tactics available.

What would surprise me is if this is the end of it, or whether the USADA will go on wasting our tax dollars on this crapola. Why not go further back while they're ignoring the statute of limitations?

this topic has been under investigation since 2006 and took this long for these results


Based on pressured accusations and hearsay.

Let me put it this way.

They drug tested him.
He passed the drug tests.
End of story.

The USADA needs to sit down, shut up, and GTFBTW. This is just a pissing contest.
 
2012-10-10 06:40:58 PM  

Marcus Aurelius:

They drug tested him.
He passed the drug tests.
End of story.

The USADA needs to sit down, shut up, and GTFBTW. This is just a pissing contest.


no they did not have the technology to track blood transfusing like they do now. AND there are samples of USPS cycling having extra blood cells in the tests- the UCI either let this slip or who know what, that is another chapter to a continuing story.
 
2012-10-10 06:42:30 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Let me put it this way.


I'll be succinct - your hero is a cheat. And what's more he's been cheating the entire time.
 
2012-10-10 06:44:45 PM  

expobill: Marcus Aurelius:

They drug tested him.
He passed the drug tests.
End of story.

The USADA needs to sit down, shut up, and GTFBTW. This is just a pissing contest.

no they did not have the technology to track blood transfusing like they do now. AND there are samples of USPS cycling having extra blood cells in the tests- the UCI either let this slip or who know what, that is another chapter to a continuing story.


So a US taxpayer funded agency spent six years investigating a guy that spent his summers cycling around France to see if maybe he took some EPO and transfused his blood.

Does that sound reasonable or rational or sane to you? Because to me it seems completely insane.
 
2012-10-10 06:44:57 PM  
Marcus Aurelius
oops, how are we?
we have locked horns here in the past, but always shook hands- sorry for being abrupt.
i rode around port jervis and sommerset Nj at times years ago.
I hope you are ok and enjoying the foliage, here in madison wi we are experiencing some nice colors on our bike and road paths.
 
2012-10-10 06:47:38 PM  

Marcus Aurelius:


So a US taxpayer funded agency spent six years investigating a guy that spent his summers cycling around France to see if maybe he took some EPO and transfused his blood.

Does that sound reasonable or rational or sane to you? Because to me it seems completely insane.


the UCI screamed fraud years ago and the USADA had to investigate to save their buts from any evidence they knew the cyclist transfused blood after tests, or that would be a conspiracy towards their winnings income.
 
2012-10-10 06:49:15 PM  

Nabb1: The real joke about all this is that the guys who would stand to get Lance's stripped Tour de France wins are all embroiled in their own doping scandals.


Thats what I find weird about this. Appaerently it would be hardder to find a TDF cyclist who wasn't doping. So why not let the past go and start cleaning it up for the future. Wouldn't stuffing your entire record book in the shredder damage your sport worse than just accepting that everyone was on the stuff and therefore it wasn't an actual factor?
 
2012-10-10 06:49:15 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: So a US taxpayer funded agency spent six years investigating a guy that spent his summers cycling around France to see if maybe he took some EPO and transfused his blood.

Does that sound reasonable or rational or sane to you? Because to me it seems completely insane.



To be fair they guy cycling around france was supported for many years by a team funded with US tax dollars. Our govt has spent more on less. If I had a vote I'd have voted not to pursue the matter. But they didn't ask me. In the meantime it's kind of fun to see a lying narcissistic bully get his due.
 
2012-10-10 06:50:50 PM  

JohnBigBootay: Marcus Aurelius: Let me put it this way.

I'll be succinct - your hero is a cheat. And what's more he's been cheating the entire time.


He ain't my hero, pal, and he sure as hell took as many banned substances as the next guy.

Guess what? They all did.

But I'm sure the USADA will figure out how to waste more of my tax dollars regardless.
 
2012-10-10 06:52:00 PM  

Digitalstrange: Thats what I find weird about this. Appaerently it would be hardder to find a TDF cyclist who wasn't doping. So why not let the past go and start cleaning it up for the future.


Nah. I mean, yeah, most were doping. But not all. And I'd say they left the job unfinished if they stopped at busting everyone EXCEPT the guy who won and gained the most financially from the fraud. Sure, it was a fool's errand but you might as well finish the stupid job once you've begun it.
 
2012-10-10 06:53:08 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: So a US taxpayer funded agency spent six years investigating a guy that spent his summers cycling around France to see if maybe he took some EPO and transfused his blood.

Does that sound reasonable or rational or sane to you? Because to me it seems completely insane.


The USADA isn't a goverment agency, and it also doesn't take money from the government. I still think the whole organization is a joke, but they aren't taking tax payer money.
 
2012-10-10 06:53:15 PM  

expobill: Marcus Aurelius
oops, how are we?
we have locked horns here in the past, but always shook hands- sorry for being abrupt.
i rode around port jervis and sommerset Nj at times years ago.
I hope you are ok and enjoying the foliage, here in madison wi we are experiencing some nice colors on our bike and road paths.


We've got good leaves here this year, the rains came just in time. Unfortunately they also watered my oak tree, and the damned squirrels are waging trench warfare in my front yard burying the acorns. Talk about a double edged sword.
 
2012-10-10 06:53:50 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: He ain't my hero, pal, and he sure as hell took as many banned substances as the next guy.

Guess what? They all did.


I'd say there's substantial reason to believe he may have taken more than the next guy and more often to boot. And no, they weren't all dirty. We've just never heard of the guys who weren't.
 
2012-10-10 06:54:31 PM  

Digitalstrange: So why not let the past go and start cleaning it up for the future.

that was why Contador received his ban and strip from cycling because he had a thumbnail's worth of "Chernobyl" in his sysyem from tainted beef- pure accident but none the less.
He still won the Vuelta this year.
/only by 11 seconds to my hero Valverde!
 
2012-10-10 06:55:44 PM  
Lance wasn't the best cyclist, he was the best doper. He was a leader and pioneer in the field of doping, that is the problem. The fanboys just can't seem to grasp what a pos Armstrong was and how badly he effected professional cycling. The whole you couldnt win if you didn't dope line is correct, but it leaves out the part that Armstrong and his team were the single most reason that things got to that point. He needs to give back his winnings and a huge chunk of endorsement money now, he is through.
 
2012-10-10 06:55:51 PM  

marsgwar: Marcus Aurelius: So a US taxpayer funded agency spent six years investigating a guy that spent his summers cycling around France to see if maybe he took some EPO and transfused his blood.

Does that sound reasonable or rational or sane to you? Because to me it seems completely insane.

The USADA isn't a goverment agency, and it also doesn't take money from the government. I still think the whole organization is a joke, but they aren't taking tax payer money.


USADA is not a government entity, however the agency is partly funded by the Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP), with its remaining budget generated from contracts for anti-doping services with sport organizations, most notably the United States Olympic Committee

Sounds like tax dollars to me.
 
2012-10-10 06:56:45 PM  

marsgwar: The USADA isn't a goverment agency, and it also doesn't take money from the government. I still think the whole organization is a joke, but they aren't taking tax payer money


Upon further reading I did find they get some of their money from taxes, so your criticism in that regarded is founded.
 
2012-10-10 07:00:42 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: expobill:

We've got good leaves here this year, the rains came just in time. Unfortunately they also watered my oak tree, and the damned squirrels are waging trench warfare in my front yard burying the acorns. Talk about a double edged sword.

the Oaks around my sister's houe have grown so much (40 feet) the squirrels are overwhelmed by the amount of acorns.
those squirrels are everywhere, they time themselves perfectly to run under cyclist tires.
I guess they spend 100% of their time on the ground, they know how to time crossing a path unscathed!
 
2012-10-10 07:02:14 PM  

kapaso: Lance wasn't the best cyclist, he was the best doper. He was a leader and pioneer in the field of doping, that is the problem. The fanboys just can't seem to grasp what a pos Armstrong was and how badly he effected professional cycling. The whole you couldnt win if you didn't dope line is correct, but it leaves out the part that Armstrong and his team were the single most reason that things got to that point. He needs to give back his winnings and a huge chunk of endorsement money now, he is through.


he should, but the cash is spent!
 
2012-10-10 07:03:33 PM  

kapaso: Lance wasn't the best cyclist, he was the best doper. He was a leader and pioneer in the field of doping, that is the problem. The fanboys just can't seem to grasp what a pos Armstrong was and how badly he effected professional cycling. The whole you couldnt win if you didn't dope line is correct, but it leaves out the part that Armstrong and his team were the single most reason that things got to that point. He needs to give back his winnings and a huge chunk of endorsement money now, he is through.


You are a man that understands the issue here. Armstrong was not only NOT a crusader against doping as he claimed, he completely undermined all the anti-doping efforts by spending millions of dollars and employing doping experts to figure out how to most effectively skirt the rules.
 
2012-10-10 07:05:48 PM  
JohnBigBootay
you and a few others knew about the real Lance during his July races, and we got reamed for that!
/best dish served!
 
2012-10-10 07:06:19 PM  

expobill: kapaso: Lance wasn't the best cyclist, he was the best doper. He was a leader and pioneer in the field of doping, that is the problem. The fanboys just can't seem to grasp what a pos Armstrong was and how badly he effected professional cycling. The whole you couldnt win if you didn't dope line is correct, but it leaves out the part that Armstrong and his team were the single most reason that things got to that point. He needs to give back his winnings and a huge chunk of endorsement money now, he is through.

he should, but the cash is spent!


He may keep his primary residence, if it is below a certain value and a car, if it is below a certain value. He owes a lot of money to people who always use the best lawyers. Lance knew what the consequences were, although I doubt he is a position to deal with them.
 
2012-10-10 07:10:25 PM  

kapaso:

He may keep his primary residence, if it is below a certain value and a car, if it is below a certain value. He owes a lot of money to people who always use the best lawyers. Lance knew what the consequences were, although I doubt he is a position to deal with them.


My sister read, i think purchased 2 of his books, she like Bios and knows he is an ass, but thinks highly of him-and got tired of my sore-loser attitude towards him and the USPS team
this was years ago, and i don't think she cares today
 
2012-10-10 07:11:27 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: expobill: Marcus Aurelius:

They drug tested him.
He passed the drug tests.
End of story.

The USADA needs to sit down, shut up, and GTFBTW. This is just a pissing contest.

no they did not have the technology to track blood transfusing like they do now. AND there are samples of USPS cycling having extra blood cells in the tests- the UCI either let this slip or who know what, that is another chapter to a continuing story.

So a US taxpayer funded agency spent six years investigating a guy that spent his summers cycling around France to see if maybe he took some EPO and transfused his blood.

Does that sound reasonable or rational or sane to you? Because to me it seems completely insane.


Thank you. That's what I was trying to say earlier, but less well and at greater length.
 
2012-10-10 07:13:32 PM  
i still say my headline was funnier!
 
2012-10-10 07:22:20 PM  
Reading through this thing is hilarious...

There will not be a hearing in this case because Lance Armstrong strategically avoided it.
He voluntarily gave up the right to cross examine the witnesses against him. He abandoned his
opportunity to testify (and avoided the prospect of being cross examined) under oath in response
to USADA's witnesses. Therefore, the truth in this case is set forth in writing in this Reasoned
Decision.


The witnesses cited in this Reasoned Decision have testified under oath, through
affidavits in which they have sworn to tell the truth under penalties of perjury. Lance Armstrong
does not testify this way - because he did not want to testify - he wanted to walk away and avoid
the truth telling. However, his refusal to attend a hearing still speaks volumes.

Now that the witnesses have testified it is USADA's responsibility to issue its Reasoned
Decision. This Reasoned Decision is the true record of the evidence in the case of The United
States Anti-Doping Agency v. Lance Armstrong.


Their word is apparently the law.
 
2012-10-10 07:22:25 PM  
I'm just tired of hearing about this. Are we done yet? Can we get back to cycling now? Please?
 
2012-10-10 07:24:33 PM  

crotchgrabber: I'm just tired of hearing about this. Are we done yet? Can we get back to cycling now? Please?


the season is over, tour of aussie starts in mid-january
 
2012-10-10 07:26:03 PM  

expobill: JohnBigBootay
you and a few others knew about the real Lance during his July races, and we got reamed for that!
/best dish served!


I just cannot wrap my mind around a guy who went to such massive lengths to cover all this shiat up for so long. If I had any lingering doubts they were completely washed away by George Hincapie. It's simply not remotely plausibleyou could get that many people to tell the same lie. You got the entire doping team, the doping trainer and the doping doctor and the doping team manager. But the guy who won the races was clean. Ok, sure. I buy that.
 
2012-10-10 07:26:29 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: marsgwar: Marcus Aurelius: So a US taxpayer funded agency spent six years investigating a guy that spent his summers cycling around France to see if maybe he took some EPO and transfused his blood.

Does that sound reasonable or rational or sane to you? Because to me it seems completely insane.

The USADA isn't a goverment agency, and it also doesn't take money from the government. I still think the whole organization is a joke, but they aren't taking tax payer money.

USADA is not a government entity, however the agency is partly funded by the Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP), with its remaining budget generated from contracts for anti-doping services with sport organizations, most notably the United States Olympic Committee

Sounds like tax dollars to me.


Do you want to be in the Olympics? You need to fund anti-doping agencies. Maybe you should cull the USDA and American athletes can be global pariahs.
 
2012-10-10 07:27:53 PM  
well, im headed to celebrate octoberfest- just today was a sad day for those (except lance) who rode for the USPS team and had their wins and achievements taken away.
 
2012-10-10 07:38:34 PM  

crotchgrabber: I'm just tired of hearing about this. Are we done yet? Can we get back to cycling now? Please?


Not likely - but go ahead and see if you can get a link approved for the Vuelta or Paris Roubaix. For all intents and purposes LA IS cycling is the US so this will go away just about never.

Oh, and if anyone wants to know why Lance quit and did not challenge the results, it was because he knew that his steadfast lieutenent would be taking the stand and he knew the guy he dedicated his book to would not lie...

At a race in Spain in 2000, Hincapie said Armstrong told him he was "feeling good" and had just taken some "oil," meaning testosterone. Hincapie also testified that when he heard that drug-testing officials were at the hotel, "I texted Lance to warn him to avoid the place. As a result, Lance dropped out of the race."

Hincapie said he was aware Armstrong used blood doping in every Tour de France from 2001 to 2005. Before the 2005 Tour de France,Hincapie said Armstrong "gave me two vials of EPO while we were both in Nice,France."

After the 2005 Tour, Hincapie said team director Johan Bruyneel asked him "to make sure there were no doping materials" in Armstrong's apartment that could be found by others. Hincapie said he then conducted a drug sweep of Armstrong's apartment.
 
2012-10-10 07:40:43 PM  
I don't really care whether Lance did or didn't dope. If he did, then he beat a bunch of other druggies at their own game. If he didn't, well that's even more impressive. I do wish, however, that the evidence consisted of more than just the testimony of people who have already admitted to doping. I simply don't think they should be taking anyone's titles away without something as conclusive and impartial as a drug test.
 
2012-10-10 07:42:47 PM  
Heading out for a bit, but I just got through reading the first of the 'concrete' evidence affidavits, specifically from Emma O'Reilly, who tells a compelling tale of first hand accounts before ending with a bit about a personal conflict between Armstrong and herself where she claims he ruined her reputation.

Strike one.

I wonder how many more individuals with potential grudges will be turned up by this mess?
 
2012-10-10 08:01:14 PM  
You do realize that the team doping is sufficient grounds for having the titles taken away right?
 
2012-10-10 08:04:12 PM  
The evidence against Armstrong is devastating. If there was an issue with doping in cycling before Armstrong, just think how much Lance's and his team's use would have contributed to that culture. When it comes to doping in sports it's always important to go after ring leaders such as Armstrong to set an example that this behavior will not be tolerated. Perhaps many of the other cyclists were doping as well but unless we can prove it, they will most likely escape the same fate. This era of cycling will be forever tainted by Armstrong's legacy. I just hope that he can serve as an example to young athletes anywhere that doping is not worth the consequences.
 
2012-10-10 08:07:18 PM  

expobill: crotchgrabber: I'm just tired of hearing about this. Are we done yet? Can we get back to cycling now? Please?

the season is over, tour of aussie starts in mid-january


I live in California. The season doesn't end. Cyclocross is rocking right now.
 
2012-10-10 08:11:02 PM  
Just popped in to add to the chorus that the post office is amazing.

For pocket change, you can drop an envelope into a box on the street and they will deliver it to any address in the country within a few days. And they'll hand-deliver all your mail and packages to your door, six days a week, at no cost to you.

It's an amazing service for the price, and I don't get the hate for it either. But I guess some people's politics ave caused them to decide, a priori, that any quasi-governmental agency must necessarily be wasteful, inefficient, and mismanaged.
 
2012-10-10 08:12:33 PM  
Ummm. shouldn't it be presumed that an even more successful scheme wouldn't have been ever exposed in the first place, and thusly probably happening right now?
 
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