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(Denver Post)   Get your popcorn ready: The United States just sued Wells Fargo   (denverpost.com) divider line 67
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6056 clicks; posted to Business » on 10 Oct 2012 at 4:49 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-10 01:34:34 AM  
Well that's something. But I still would like to see some criminal charges.
 
2012-10-10 01:38:17 AM  
Good, all the people in charge should face criminal charges as well.
 
2012-10-10 02:02:24 AM  
Why? So I can watch them settle for 5-10% of the amount of the fraud and stockholders will pay the fine whilst the people who committed the transgressions will see no impact on their bottom line?

Meh. I've see this movie before. Pass.

It's f*cking bullsh*t that there is no real personal responsibility for those who hide behind the legal construct of the Corporation.
 
2012-10-10 02:07:39 AM  
I miss Wachovia
 
2012-10-10 02:34:47 AM  
I just refinanced with them. Now I know what that $600 "Convenience Fee" was for.
 
2012-10-10 03:14:54 AM  

NewportBarGuy: Why? So I can watch them settle for 5-10% of the amount of the fraud and stockholders will pay the fine whilst the people who committed the transgressions will see no impact on their bottom line?

Meh. I've see this movie before. Pass.

It's f*cking bullsh*t that there is no real personal responsibility for those who hide behind the legal construct of the Corporation.


But...corporations are people!

/This is what Mitt Romney actually believes.
 
2012-10-10 03:25:59 AM  
Bank of America has this new deal with their ATMs where you can overdraw your account as long as you fill it back up before the next business day. They put up a little window making you agree to this or get charged $35 overdraft fees.

haha I'm a sucker, I fell for it twice. Pulled out $60 on a Thursday night at 11 PM and got direct deposited my paycheck at 2 AM.

Both times I got the overdraft fee. I called up and was like WTF there were like 3 hours in the middle of the night I was overdrawn and that's not what I agreed to, your little thing says "end of the business day."

They laughed and laughed.
 
2012-10-10 03:57:51 AM  
They'll just make this disappear wirth a few well-placed campaign contributions.
 
2012-10-10 04:50:12 AM  
What will Marty McFly do now?
 
2012-10-10 05:07:31 AM  

AbbeySomeone: Good, all the people in charge should face criminal charges as well.


Otherwise it's just a cost of doing business, a financial risk.
 
2012-10-10 06:07:59 AM  
Let the wrist slapping begin!

Also, calling fines to banks "punishment" is like taking beer from a brewer as punishment, except the brewer needs ingredients whereas banks create money from nothing.
 
2012-10-10 06:18:12 AM  

nmemkha: Let the wrist slapping begin!

Also, calling fines to banks "punishment" is like taking beer from a brewer as punishment, except the brewer needs ingredients whereas banks create money from nothing.


And their chicks are free.
 
2012-10-10 06:26:03 AM  
I can see by your eyes you must be lying
When you think I don't have a clue
Baby you're crazy
If you think that you can fool me
Because I've seen that movie too
The one where the players are acting surprised
Saying love's just a four letter word
Between forcing smiles, with the knives in their eyes
Well their actions become so absurd
chorus
So keep your auditions for somebody
Who hasn't got so much to lose
'Cause you can tell by the lines I'm reciting
That I've seen that movie too...
 
2012-10-10 06:34:24 AM  
Ah, now I understand how the scam works. Giving mortgages to people who couldn't afford them didn't make much sense before (sure, you can foreclose, but then you just end up owning a bunch of houses people still can't afford). But if you can get the government to back loans people are going to default on, you're golden. Ain't that right, University of Phoenix and all you other for-profit universities?
 
2012-10-10 06:38:13 AM  

NewportBarGuy: Why? So I can watch them settle for 5-10% of the amount of the fraud and stockholders will pay the fine whilst the people who committed the transgressions will see no impact on their bottom line?

Meh. I've see this movie before. Pass.

It's f*cking bullsh*t that there is no real personal responsibility for those who hide behind the legal construct of the Corporation.


This.

how many shady-banks-behaving-badly have we seen? Remember the whole economic melt down? Aside from the banks rewarding their execs with giant bonuses - what consequences have they actually faced?
 
2012-10-10 06:45:39 AM  
People are missing the root cause of this problem.

THERE IS A PROGRAM WHERE BANKS CAN GET THE US GOVERNMENT TO COVER THEIR LOSES ON BAD MORTGAGES!

Stop and think about *THAT* for a second. The government is saying Wells Fargo *took advantage* of the program. How about the fact that we have a program at all? And *WHY* do we have such a program? Because stupid people passed laws that don't make any sense. Banks weren't lending to poor people because it was too risky. Law makers wanted votes. 'LET'S MAKE BANKS LEND TO POOR PEOPLE! WE'LL USE TAX PAYERS TO BACK THE LOANS!'

So stupid people pass a law to help poor people which results in making rich people richer that also completely shafted poor people. YAY!
 
2012-10-10 06:54:54 AM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: People are missing the root cause of this problem.

THERE IS A PROGRAM WHERE BANKS CAN GET THE US GOVERNMENT TO COVER THEIR LOSES ON BAD MORTGAGES!

Stop and think about *THAT* for a second. The government is saying Wells Fargo *took advantage* of the program. How about the fact that we have a program at all? And *WHY* do we have such a program? Because stupid people passed laws that don't make any sense. Banks weren't lending to poor people because it was too risky. Law makers wanted votes. 'LET'S MAKE BANKS LEND TO POOR PEOPLE! WE'LL USE TAX PAYERS TO BACK THE LOANS!'

So stupid people pass a law to help poor people which results in making rich people richer that also completely shafted poor people. YAY!


The intent of the law was to cover affordable loans made to people with good income but poor credit - like couples just starting out and people who are trying to get their stuff back together. The law could have been written better, but it was not supposed to cover bad loans. Wells Fargo took advantage in that they made loans to people who couldn't afford them, rating agencies called the bad loans good, and Wells Fargo profited from the bad loans. There is some fault with the government here and the lawmakers who passed that bill, but most of it lies with the banks who knew the loans were bad and made them anyway.
 
2012-10-10 07:09:39 AM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: And *WHY* do we have such a program?


Lobbyists.
 
2012-10-10 07:27:31 AM  

Confabulat: Bank of America


Well, there's your problem.
 
2012-10-10 07:37:35 AM  
i.ytimg.com
 
2012-10-10 08:17:03 AM  

Confabulat: They laughed and laughed.


I laugh at people who do business with Bank of America too. All the way to my bank.

As a shareholder of BAC, I basically count on people like you proving P.T. Barnum's cynical philosophy correct. I'll sell my stake when people get smart enough to steer clear of anything with their name on it.
 
2012-10-10 08:27:25 AM  

EvilEgg: Well that's something. But I still would like to see some criminal charges.


Well, let's see. If *I* lie about something to get insurance for it, they call it.. fra... frauline? farump? something like that?
 
2012-10-10 08:32:53 AM  

KrispyKritter: I can see by your eyes you must be lying
When you think I don't have a clue
Baby you're crazy
If you think that you can fool me
Because I've seen that movie too
The one where the players are acting surprised
Saying love's just a four letter word
Between forcing smiles, with the knives in their eyes
Well their actions become so absurd
chorus
So keep your auditions for somebody
Who hasn't got so much to lose
'Cause you can tell by the lines I'm reciting
That I've seen that movie too...


So your point is you think we should change the spelling of love? I'm not sure how that would impact this case, but okay.
 
2012-10-10 08:33:36 AM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Confabulat: They laughed and laughed.

I laugh at people who do business with Bank of America too. All the way to my bank.

As a shareholder of BAC, I basically count on people like you proving P.T. Barnum's cynical philosophy correct. I'll sell my stake when people get smart enough to steer clear of anything with their name on it.


Oh give me a break, the idea was to have a convenient ATM nearby after my last credit union made me go about 7 miles out of my way all the time. My debit card expires next month but I'm not exactly seeing a bunch of super awesome banks out there to switch to. Ooo do you have a cool bank to recommend?
 
2012-10-10 08:37:57 AM  

Confabulat: Ooo do you have a cool bank to recommend?


I recommend you stay with BoA so I can have your money while I sit on my fat ass and do nothing. If you mean a recommendation that benefits you, well, I recommend you return to the CU and just plan your weekly cash needs a little better so you only have to make the trip to the ATM more than once a week. Or maybe get cash back at grocery stores and the like.

But even if planning's not your thing, it sounds like it might cost you less to just pay the withdrawal fees at the BoA ATM and keep the account itself with the CU.
 
2012-10-10 08:49:22 AM  

Confabulat: Vegan Meat Popsicle: Confabulat: They laughed and laughed.

I laugh at people who do business with Bank of America too. All the way to my bank.

As a shareholder of BAC, I basically count on people like you proving P.T. Barnum's cynical philosophy correct. I'll sell my stake when people get smart enough to steer clear of anything with their name on it.

Oh give me a break, the idea was to have a convenient ATM nearby after my last credit union made me go about 7 miles out of my way all the time. My debit card expires next month but I'm not exactly seeing a bunch of super awesome banks out there to switch to. Ooo do you have a cool bank to recommend?


USAA
 
2012-10-10 08:58:26 AM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: People are missing the root cause of this problem.

THERE IS A PROGRAM WHERE BANKS CAN GET THE US GOVERNMENT TO COVER THEIR LOSES ON BAD MORTGAGES!

Stop and think about *THAT* for a second. The government is saying Wells Fargo *took advantage* of the program. How about the fact that we have a program at all? And *WHY* do we have such a program? Because stupid people passed laws that don't make any sense. Banks weren't lending to poor people because it was too risky. Law makers wanted votes. 'LET'S MAKE BANKS LEND TO POOR PEOPLE! WE'LL USE TAX PAYERS TO BACK THE LOANS!'

So stupid people pass a law to help poor people which results in making rich people richer that also completely shafted poor people. YAY!


How are poor people shafted? FHA insurance has made their mortgages much cheaper than they otherwise would be. It's government subsidization of such borrowers.

You are right, though, that it is a silly program and a waste. FTA: "Specifically, the lawsuit alleges that between May 2001 and October 2005, Wells Fargo & Co. certified that over 100,000 mortgage loans were eligible for the insurance. But "a very substantial percentage" of those loans were not eligible, according to the lawsuit

So they were insuring loans in 2001 though 2005 and only now is there a lawsuit being filed? What the fark was the FHA doing during those years? Why wouldn't they have checked to make sure that the loans they were insuring, you know, actually qualified for the insurance they offer? Were the government employees running the FHA actually that incompetent? Or maybe, the FHA was okay with the loans then and this lawsuit is just an attempt to extort money out of Wells Fargo. Either way, it's outrageous.
 
2012-10-10 09:04:11 AM  
The only solution is to burn the entire corporation to the ground, including all employees from the CEO to the janitor.
 
2012-10-10 09:07:09 AM  

Lost Thought 00: The only solution is to burn the entire corporation to the ground, including all employees from the CEO to the janitor.


I wouldn't mind.

/going on 6 months now with their refi process
 
2012-10-10 09:19:06 AM  

Confabulat: Bank of America has this new deal with their ATMs where you can overdraw your account as long as you fill it back up before the next business day. They put up a little window making you agree to this or get charged $35 overdraft fees.

haha I'm a sucker, I fell for it twice. Pulled out $60 on a Thursday night at 11 PM and got direct deposited my paycheck at 2 AM.

Both times I got the overdraft fee. I called up and was like WTF there were like 3 hours in the middle of the night I was overdrawn and that's not what I agreed to, your little thing says "end of the business day."

They laughed and laughed.


"End of the business day" is usually 3pm for banks. They don't like telling people that any transaction after 3pm is technically on the next day of business. Also, if you go in after 3pm on Friday, it's been switched over to Monday already.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2012-10-10 09:22:28 AM  
It's a good start but the government is only asking for its money back. Commit fraud with 100 mortgages, getting the government to guarantee you won't lose money. 80 of them turn out profitable as expected. Half of the rest end up even. In 10 cases you eat the loss instead of the government.
 
2012-10-10 09:25:00 AM  
I'm sure they will settle for a tiny fraction of the actual losses, no one will go to jail or even admit any wrongdoing and the bonuses will be bigger than ever come Christmas time
 
2012-10-10 09:26:46 AM  
I'd like to see them sued over their handling of student loans. They've messed up my wife's credit and since they are no longer in the business, won't do a thing to fix the problem.
 
2012-10-10 09:42:07 AM  

cman: I miss Wachovia


Wachovia was a cesspool. I know why Wells Fargo bought them (to get an east coast presence) but cleaning it up is going to take a decade. Wells Fargo is (was?) a conservatively run bank - which is why I didn't need to be bailed out (unlike all the others) but moves like buying Wachovia has risked that culture.

/used to work for them
//a number of people who left over the Wachovia debacle
 
2012-10-10 09:44:58 AM  
Dammit, I'm sick of hearing all the whining about "loans to poor people" over and over again. Get this through your skulls, people:

Poor people CAN, in fact, afford credit. They have the biggest need for it, arguably, and so seeing to it that they get it is a great, but un-sexy way to fight poverty itself, over time.

Unfortunately, the for-profit banking industry understands one thing all too well: the richer the borrower, the more lucrative the credit. You simply make less money off poor customers, both for the obvious reason and for covering the increased default rate. But you don't make ZERO profit... just less.

The problem is the fat-cats just aren't satisfied. They can still make money in that business, but because it wasn't as EFFICIENT a money-maker (think about that for a moment - it's still a cash machine, but it just doesn't run FAST enough for the farkers), they had to figure out a way to super-charge it (since the 'evil gubmint' insisted that you couldn't just deny every brown person a mortgage like they wanted). So they figured, hey, if we can't make them go away, let's fleece 'em 'till they bleed!

There is no reason on earth that even mega-banks can't loan to lower income borrowers and still profit. But since they can't MEGA-profit, they don't want to do it, and are making it enough of a mess that their bought-and-paid-for congresscritters will eventually let them off the hook. Our only hope then is that the wrong regulations don't prevent some new structure (credit unions? maybe) from picking up the slack.
 
2012-10-10 09:49:55 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Fark_Guy_Rob: People are missing the root cause of this problem.

THERE IS A PROGRAM WHERE BANKS CAN GET THE US GOVERNMENT TO COVER THEIR LOSES ON BAD MORTGAGES!

Stop and think about *THAT* for a second. The government is saying Wells Fargo *took advantage* of the program. How about the fact that we have a program at all? And *WHY* do we have such a program? Because stupid people passed laws that don't make any sense. Banks weren't lending to poor people because it was too risky. Law makers wanted votes. 'LET'S MAKE BANKS LEND TO POOR PEOPLE! WE'LL USE TAX PAYERS TO BACK THE LOANS!'

So stupid people pass a law to help poor people which results in making rich people richer that also completely shafted poor people. YAY!

How are poor people shafted? FHA insurance has made their mortgages much cheaper than they otherwise would be. It's government subsidization of such borrowers.

You are right, though, that it is a silly program and a waste. FTA: "Specifically, the lawsuit alleges that between May 2001 and October 2005, Wells Fargo & Co. certified that over 100,000 mortgage loans were eligible for the insurance. But "a very substantial percentage" of those loans were not eligible, according to the lawsuit

So they were insuring loans in 2001 though 2005 and only now is there a lawsuit being filed? What the fark was the FHA doing during those years? Why wouldn't they have checked to make sure that the loans they were insuring, you know, actually qualified for the insurance they offer? Were the government employees running the FHA actually that incompetent? Or maybe, the FHA was okay with the loans then and this lawsuit is just an attempt to extort money out of Wells Fargo. Either way, it's outrageous.


A poor guy goes to Vegas with $200. He gambles and loses $200.

Another poor guy goes to Vegas and petitions the government for his loans to be backed by the federal government because rich people are getting rich in Vegas and it's unfair to poor people. And anyone who thinks it's a bad idea to give poor people with bad credit a bunch of money are racists! So, politicians go 'Okay!' and establish some federal lending guidelines and now he borrows 50k. He gambles and loses $50k.

It's just giving people more rope with which to hang themselves. It's not helping them, it's hurting them. No different than pay-day loans and their outrageous rates or credit cards and their rates.

If you have bad credit, it takes a few short years to clean it up. If you have terrible credit - seven years until it's perfect. Less than that until it's good. Getting a mortgage should be a big deal, it should be something people think about and plan for. That might include PAYING YOUR BILLS for a few years prior to buying a house.
 
2012-10-10 09:50:03 AM  

nekom: EvilEgg: Well that's something. But I still would like to see some criminal charges.

Well, let's see. If *I* lie about something to get insurance for it, they call it.. fra... frauline? farump? something like that?


When you walk into a store and walk out without paying, that's theft. When a kid with severe learning disabilities does the same, there isn't the same intent.

The big banks are far more incompetent than most folks give them credit for. They need to be kept (by force if necessary) from doing the most dangerous things to themselves and those around them; but trying to prove intent is extremely unlikely to get anywhere...
 
2012-10-10 09:53:57 AM  

Confabulat: Vegan Meat Popsicle: Confabulat: They laughed and laughed.

I laugh at people who do business with Bank of America too. All the way to my bank.

As a shareholder of BAC, I basically count on people like you proving P.T. Barnum's cynical philosophy correct. I'll sell my stake when people get smart enough to steer clear of anything with their name on it.

Oh give me a break, the idea was to have a convenient ATM nearby after my last credit union made me go about 7 miles out of my way all the time. My debit card expires next month but I'm not exactly seeing a bunch of super awesome banks out there to switch to. Ooo do you have a cool bank to recommend?


Use a local bank, assuming you live in an area with one.
 
2012-10-10 09:54:34 AM  

TheOtherGuy: Dammit, I'm sick of hearing all the whining about "loans to poor people" over and over again. Get this through your skulls, people:

Poor people CAN, in fact, afford credit. They have the biggest need for it, arguably, and so seeing to it that they get it is a great, but un-sexy way to fight poverty itself, over time.

Unfortunately, the for-profit banking industry understands one thing all too well: the richer the borrower, the more lucrative the credit. You simply make less money off poor customers, both for the obvious reason and for covering the increased default rate. But you don't make ZERO profit... just less.

The problem is the fat-cats just aren't satisfied. They can still make money in that business, but because it wasn't as EFFICIENT a money-maker (think about that for a moment - it's still a cash machine, but it just doesn't run FAST enough for the farkers), they had to figure out a way to super-charge it (since the 'evil gubmint' insisted that you couldn't just deny every brown person a mortgage like they wanted). So they figured, hey, if we can't make them go away, let's fleece 'em 'till they bleed!

There is no reason on earth that even mega-banks can't loan to lower income borrowers and still profit. But since they can't MEGA-profit, they don't want to do it, and are making it enough of a mess that their bought-and-paid-for congresscritters will eventually let them off the hook. Our only hope then is that the wrong regulations don't prevent some new structure (credit unions? maybe) from picking up the slack.


I'm poor and have bad credit - maybe you should lend me money?
 
2012-10-10 10:03:50 AM  

regindyn: Confabulat: Vegan Meat Popsicle: Confabulat: They laughed and laughed.

I laugh at people who do business with Bank of America too. All the way to my bank.

As a shareholder of BAC, I basically count on people like you proving P.T. Barnum's cynical philosophy correct. I'll sell my stake when people get smart enough to steer clear of anything with their name on it.

Oh give me a break, the idea was to have a convenient ATM nearby after my last credit union made me go about 7 miles out of my way all the time. My debit card expires next month but I'm not exactly seeing a bunch of super awesome banks out there to switch to. Ooo do you have a cool bank to recommend?

Use a local bank, assuming you live in an area with one.


it all depends on what you want from the bank

a local bank will be better for basic checking and will provide better customer service. however, they will likely have lower interest rates for savings accounts and CDs and less favorable rates for loans.

just shop banks and their offerings like you would any other product. 

/ i use two, USAA credit union for anything that matters and Chase for a checking account because they're pretty good when you don't want much from them. USAA is better overall, but occasionally I need a real bank for certain things.
 
2012-10-10 10:27:34 AM  

Confabulat: Vegan Meat Popsicle: Confabulat: They laughed and laughed.

I laugh at people who do business with Bank of America too. All the way to my bank.

As a shareholder of BAC, I basically count on people like you proving P.T. Barnum's cynical philosophy correct. I'll sell my stake when people get smart enough to steer clear of anything with their name on it.

Oh give me a break, the idea was to have a convenient ATM nearby after my last credit union made me go about 7 miles out of my way all the time. My debit card expires next month but I'm not exactly seeing a bunch of super awesome banks out there to switch to. Ooo do you have a cool bank to recommend?


I don't know where you live but TD is pretty good. Not as good as when they were just commerce bank but still good. Good hours, minimal fees, change machines for the kids.
 
2012-10-10 10:29:40 AM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: I'm poor and have bad credit - maybe you should lend me money?


As long as the interest rate prices the risk appropriately there's nothing with loaning you money, even if you've got bad credit - it's when you set the rates too low, or repackage that loan as something else and sell it again, that you get into trouble.
 
2012-10-10 10:32:57 AM  

you have pee hands: Fark_Guy_Rob: I'm poor and have bad credit - maybe you should lend me money?

As long as the interest rate prices the risk appropriately there's nothing with loaning you money, even if you've got bad credit - it's when you set the rates too low, or repackage that loan as something else and sell it again, that you get into trouble.


That's the crux of it. These places took high-risk loans and resold them to other investors labeled as low-risk loans. That right there should have been fraud, but wasn't (and still isn't) covered by the law
 
2012-10-10 10:32:57 AM  
the gov't is a farking idiot for giving other idiots money. Taxpayers should not be footing the bill.
 
2012-10-10 10:36:46 AM  

soakitincider: the gov't is a farking idiot for giving other idiots money. Taxpayers should not be footing the bill.


Yes, everything would be hunky-dory right now if TARP hadn't been implemented.
 
2012-10-10 10:43:57 AM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: THERE IS A PROGRAM WHERE BANKS CAN GET THE US GOVERNMENT TO COVER THEIR LOSES ON BAD MORTGAGES!


Historically the FHA loans have a lower default rate than traditional non-FHA loans. So it really means the government covers their losses on mostly good mortgages. And it's an insurance program, typically that insurance is profitable for the FHA to provide much like it's typically profitable for State Farm to provide my home owner's insurance... right up until there is a hurricane. Then it sucks wind (pun intended) for a while. While I tend to agree with you that this should not be the role of government nothing you said is a reflection of reality.
 
2012-10-10 10:55:27 AM  

Confabulat: Bank of America has this new deal with their ATMs where you can overdraw your account


Hah. They let me do this back in 2000. "You want $60? Suuure, no problem!" *overdraft fee*

I biatched and biatched until they agreed to refund/waive the overdraft fee. "But we're going to call this a customer satisfaction action, we're not obligated to do this," the gal told me. "Call it whatever you want, I don't care." I responded.

One of many, many, MANY reasons I'll have never have anything to do with WF again. Don't get me started.

/Oh come on, I said "Don't get me started." Won't somebody please get me started?!?
 
2012-10-10 11:01:47 AM  

Fggin Bizzy: Confabulat: Bank of America ...I'll have never have anything to do with WF again.


Oops. Got my sociopathic banks mixed up. TFA was about WF. Oh well. BoA sucks ass too. We just refinanced our house to get out from under them. Well, mostly to save a shiatload of interest money. Getting out from under BoA was a side benefit.

(Local bank sold our mortgage to Countrywide. BoA acquired Countrywide. Ta-da! We're BoA customers. BoA sends us letters saying "Thanks for choosing BoA." Metal up your ass, BoA. I'm not here by choice.)
 
2012-10-10 11:05:40 AM  
Oh look, Wells Fargo might get a slap on the wrist that they may or may not actually feel.

Wake me up when we're actually arresting the farkers and lining them up against the walls.
 
2012-10-10 11:32:28 AM  

Confabulat: Bank of America has this new deal with their ATMs where you can overdraw your account as long as you fill it back up before the next business day. They put up a little window making you agree to this or get charged $35 overdraft fees.

haha I'm a sucker, I fell for it twice. Pulled out $60 on a Thursday night at 11 PM and got direct deposited my paycheck at 2 AM.

Both times I got the overdraft fee. I called up and was like WTF there were like 3 hours in the middle of the night I was overdrawn and that's not what I agreed to, your little thing says "end of the business day."

They laughed and laughed.


Let me guess: they said it doesn't matter when the deposit was made, they go by when they post it to your account?
 
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