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(Reuters)   EU implements a tax on investing, buying AND selling, whether or not you make a profit. Market liquidity and free investment out the door in 3..2..1   (reuters.com) divider line 86
    More: Dumbass, financial transaction tax, liquids, Greek Police, EU/IMF, european states, single market, derivatives trading, transaction tax  
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1928 clicks; posted to Business » on 09 Oct 2012 at 8:45 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-09 03:41:51 PM
Another article says they're going for a tenth of 1% on each transaction, in or out. Talk about a death wish for the Euro.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2012-10-09 03:51:58 PM
One risk is, the financial industry may try to do what the mortgage industry did: hide transactions from the government. MERS is a private registry of deeds. It allows investors to transfer property interests among themselves without paying recording fees charged by public registries.  In a traditional market a $50 recording fee once per mortgage is no big deal and you can bundle it into the price. In a securitized market a dozen $50 recording fees, each taking a business day to complete, cuts into profits.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-10-09 04:40:04 PM

ZAZ: One risk is, the financial industry may try to do what the mortgage industry did: hide transactions from the government. MERS is a private registry of deeds. It allows investors to transfer property interests among themselves without paying recording fees charged by public registries.  In a traditional market a $50 recording fee once per mortgage is no big deal and you can bundle it into the price. In a securitized market a dozen $50 recording fees, each taking a business day to complete, cuts into profits.


If it slows down micro-trading then that may be a good thing.
 
2012-10-09 04:54:40 PM
It's 1/10 of 1 percent, ffs. Less than pennies for even the largest traders, especially given their profit margins.

Besides, if this keeps day traders, speculators, and market trolls on the sidelines, it makes the system safer for the bigger traders too.
 
2012-10-09 06:35:16 PM

vpb: ZAZ: One risk is, the financial industry may try to do what the mortgage industry did: hide transactions from the government. MERS is a private registry of deeds. It allows investors to transfer property interests among themselves without paying recording fees charged by public registries.  In a traditional market a $50 recording fee once per mortgage is no big deal and you can bundle it into the price. In a securitized market a dozen $50 recording fees, each taking a business day to complete, cuts into profits.

If it slows down micro-trading then that may be a good thing.


This. Do we really want more "flash crashes"?

And then there's this:

Mysterious Algorithm Was 4% of Trading Activity Last Week

Translation: The ultimate goal of many of these programs is to gum up the system so it slows down the quote feed to others and allows the computer traders (with their co-located servers at the exchanges) to gain a money-making arbitrage opportunity.
 
2012-10-09 07:19:19 PM
I'm completely OK with this. I'm really, really, really f**king tired of the equities markets being turned into nothing more than an automated game of "go fish" where instead of picking up another card, you destroy thousands of honest investors, and one or two brokerage houses while playing Jenga with assets that you don't own.

If they don't like the "three card monte" tax, fine. They need to have on deposit with the US treasury enough funds to cover 24 hours of your trading, in and out. You get it back, with interest at the rate of 25% of the overnight. And no margin trading for these schmucks, I'm tired of them tanking the economy to try out some fun idea.
 
2012-10-09 07:33:38 PM
Almost like investing in capital is a long game, not a scheme for pump and dump to force arbitrage.
 
2012-10-09 07:40:40 PM
So it's basically a fee for participating in a government regulated enterprise, imokwiththis.jpg
 
2012-10-09 08:57:01 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: It's 1/10 of 1 percent, ffs. Less than pennies for even the largest traders, especially given their profit margins.

Besides, if this keeps day traders, speculators, and market trolls on the sidelines, it makes the system safer for the bigger traders too.


Yep, and it'll never go up.
 
2012-10-09 08:58:34 PM

fusillade762: vpb: ZAZ: One risk is, the financial industry may try to do what the mortgage industry did: hide transactions from the government. MERS is a private registry of deeds. It allows investors to transfer property interests among themselves without paying recording fees charged by public registries.  In a traditional market a $50 recording fee once per mortgage is no big deal and you can bundle it into the price. In a securitized market a dozen $50 recording fees, each taking a business day to complete, cuts into profits.

If it slows down micro-trading then that may be a good thing.

This. Do we really want more "flash crashes"?

And then there's this:

Mysterious Algorithm Was 4% of Trading Activity Last Week

Translation: The ultimate goal of many of these programs is to gum up the system so it slows down the quote feed to others and allows the computer traders (with their co-located servers at the exchanges) to gain a money-making arbitrage opportunity.


THIS ^

Its become a boring high speed game of "poker" played by computer. It not about the companies traded, they couldn't give less of a shait. Its about churning the markets by making large orders in high volume and then cancelling those orders. They then make fractions of a penny on the artificial fluctuations they created on the stocks in (and "around") their fake orders. It seems silly, but those fractional pennies add up to thousands if not millions per day.
 
2012-10-09 09:00:21 PM
Have a 401K? Starting to get some serious money in it? Say $250,000? At a tenth of a percent in and out, that is a $500 charge to roll it over from a 401K to an IRA.
 
2012-10-09 09:01:53 PM
Don't think for one effing second Dear Fartbongo hasn't thought about doing this too. All he needs is a way to blame Bush. Or aliens. Or Rush Limbaugh.

The problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of everyone elses money. - Maggie Thatcher.
 
2012-10-09 09:02:44 PM

TheGreatGazoo: Have a 401K? Starting to get some serious money in it? Say $250,000? At a tenth of a percent in and out, that is a $500 charge to roll it over from a 401K to an IRA.


This is outrage!
 
2012-10-09 09:04:03 PM
I dont think asking "traders" to put a little skin in the game is a bad thing.
 
2012-10-09 09:11:08 PM

Heraclitus: I dont think asking "traders" to put a little skin in the game is a bad thing.


Good policy I guess if all you make is 8 bucks an hour on the fry station. Let the thievery continue.
 
2012-10-09 09:13:57 PM
Owning a short-term asset like a stock is not the same thing as "investing" in a business and actually providing capital. You're placing bets on the future expected value of a stock. If you have so much extra money laying around that you can spend it frivolously on gambling, you should pay a tax on it. We tax consumption of food, and that's far more of a necessity.
 
2012-10-09 09:14:14 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: It's 1/10 of 1 percent, ffs. Less than pennies for even the largest traders, especially given their profit margins.

Besides, if this keeps day traders, speculators, and market trolls on the sidelines, it makes the system safer for the bigger traders too.


FFS do you have a clue on how forex works? When the euro/usd trade billions per day are you telling me you are truly so gullible to believe day traders and speculators are moving that currency? Hate to break it down to you but 90% of the market is big institutions and nations and they don't move currency to make profits most of the time. currency is the best manipulated to make money elsewhere by getting price down to where you need it in particular. There are international banks that nations use to hide their identity when they need to move the market. Research the topic before spouting off political talking points about how day traders and speculators are moving billions daily and trillions weekly.
 
2012-10-09 09:21:53 PM
3..2..1

Hold it, subby.
Did you pay the taxes on that?
 
2012-10-09 09:35:27 PM
No problem

Don't do your trades in any country that implements this
 
2012-10-09 09:40:02 PM
the vig...they wants it
 
2012-10-09 09:42:07 PM

Lt. Cheese Weasel: Don't think for one effing second Dear Fartbongo hasn't thought about doing this too. All he needs is a way to blame Bush. Or aliens. Or Rush Limbaugh.

The problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of everyone elses money. - Maggie Thatcher.


And if anyone knows how to cripple a country and run out of money, it was Margaret Thatcher.
 
2012-10-09 09:44:45 PM
What will it be in 15 years?
 
2012-10-09 09:49:54 PM

Carousel Beast: Grand_Moff_Joseph: It's 1/10 of 1 percent, ffs. Less than pennies for even the largest traders, especially given their profit margins.

Besides, if this keeps day traders, speculators, and market trolls on the sidelines, it makes the system safer for the bigger traders too.

Yep, and it'll never go up.


FYI, the "slippery slope" argument is considered a logical fallacy.

In any case, I just checked the bid-ask spread on SPY, a frequently-traded index fund, and it's about 20 bps, or twice as much as the proposed tax, and that's before any brokerage fees you might have to pay. There is already a transactional cost for trading, and it's much higher than the tax proposed.
 
2012-10-09 09:51:49 PM

Lt. Cheese Weasel: Don't think for one effing second Dear Fartbongo hasn't thought about doing this too. All he needs is a way to blame Bush. Or aliens. Or Rush Limbaugh.

The problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of everyone elses money. - Maggie Thatcher.


Cleanup, thread 7372725 -- someone seems to have ... had an accident here.
 
2012-10-09 09:53:59 PM
Also what would be good, a minimum holding rule, you buy it you have to hold it for X amount of time. Figure a week is a good number for stocks and bonds, three weeks for futures.
 
2012-10-09 09:55:20 PM

Carousel Beast: Grand_Moff_Joseph: It's 1/10 of 1 percent, ffs. Less than pennies for even the largest traders, especially given their profit margins.

Besides, if this keeps day traders, speculators, and market trolls on the sidelines, it makes the system safer for the bigger traders too.

Yep, and it'll never go up.


so?
Putting the brakes on day-trader bozos, and even more importantly the f'in 'puter trade machines, flipping stocks six times faster than you can e-trade...
Remember 'Buy, hold, and prosper'?
Want to get back to that? This is the path.
 
2012-10-09 10:15:16 PM

CujoQuarrel: No problem

Don't do your trades in any country that implements this


Exactly. It'll all move to London. They're salivating over this.
 
2012-10-09 10:21:30 PM
I proposed this idea a decade ago, only to learn that some Nobel winning economist suggested the same thing in 1972. Man, if I'd been born 100 years earlier, I could have won all kinds of Nobel prizes, died of small pox. Maybe we can just round all trades up to the next penny or dollar. We'll call it the Office Space tax.
 
2012-10-09 10:42:15 PM
The Economist has written some op/eds about the need for government regulation over the speed and size of trades. This could be a way to hobble that. Super fast mega-trading is a great way to cover up all sorts of fraud. Not to mention the advantages it gives to large companies compared to the average Joe.

Taxes generally suck, and most codes are super bloated. Just sayin'.
 
2012-10-09 10:49:04 PM

CujoQuarrel: Don't do your trades in any country that implements this


Which works, so long as you can get what you want on another exchange. And if none of those exchanges implement similar rules on their own.
 
2012-10-09 11:06:42 PM

TheGreatGazoo: Have a 401K? Starting to get some serious money in it? Say $250,000? At a tenth of a percent in and out, that is a $500 charge to roll it over from a 401K to an IRA.


Let's see, 15 times more than I have in my cumulative accounts from every job I've ever had... nope, I'm not feeling a lot of sympathy for anyone who's paid enough to sock away a quarter million for retirement.
 
2012-10-09 11:08:26 PM

dbirchall: TheGreatGazoo: Have a 401K? Starting to get some serious money in it? Say $250,000? At a tenth of a percent in and out, that is a $500 charge to roll it over from a 401K to an IRA.

Let's see, 15 times more than I have in my cumulative accounts from every job I've ever had... nope, I'm not feeling a lot of sympathy for anyone who's paid enough to sock away a quarter million for retirement.


What's your plan for retirement?
 
2012-10-09 11:08:57 PM
No, no... Investors need unlimited cosmic power to create or destroy markets.
 
2012-10-09 11:10:54 PM

WhyteRaven74: CujoQuarrel: Don't do your trades in any country that implements this

Which works, so long as you can get what you want on another exchange. And if none of those exchanges implement similar rules on their own.


They'd have to pretty much all implement it wouldn't they? Or the business would just gravitate to the one(s) that didn't [assuming they are large exchanges]
 
2012-10-09 11:25:00 PM

AverageAmericanGuy: dbirchall: TheGreatGazoo: Have a 401K? Starting to get some serious money in it? Say $250,000? At a tenth of a percent in and out, that is a $500 charge to roll it over from a 401K to an IRA.

Let's see, 15 times more than I have in my cumulative accounts from every job I've ever had... nope, I'm not feeling a lot of sympathy for anyone who's paid enough to sock away a quarter million for retirement.

What's your plan for retirement?


If you only have 16K put aside for retirement I hope you are still in your early 20s.
 
2012-10-09 11:53:17 PM
They're punishing the wrong activity. A tax on transactions isn't going to change the privatization of profits and the socialization of losses, which might be the biggest reason the collapse occurred. That and taking too many/big risks.
 
2012-10-09 11:55:10 PM

CujoQuarrel: If you only have 16K put aside for retirement I hope you are still in your early 20s.


Someone's really out of touch with how 20-somethings are doing these days.

/28
// -$68,000 dollars in student loans saved up for retirement
 
2012-10-10 12:07:56 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: dbirchall: TheGreatGazoo: Have a 401K? Starting to get some serious money in it? Say $250,000? At a tenth of a percent in and out, that is a $500 charge to roll it over from a 401K to an IRA.

Let's see, 15 times more than I have in my cumulative accounts from every job I've ever had... nope, I'm not feeling a lot of sympathy for anyone who's paid enough to sock away a quarter million for retirement.

What's your plan for retirement?


4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-10-10 12:22:46 AM

limeyfellow: Lt. Cheese Weasel: Don't think for one effing second Dear Fartbongo hasn't thought about doing this too. All he needs is a way to blame Bush. Or aliens. Or Rush Limbaugh.

The problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of everyone elses money. - Maggie Thatcher.

And if anyone knows how to cripple a country and run out of money, it was Margaret Thatcher.


cdn.styleforum.net
 
2012-10-10 12:33:44 AM
People will find a way around it," said David Stewart

This is all.
 
2012-10-10 12:54:38 AM

Alpo 3000: What will it be in 15 years?


It won't be. There won't be an economy in 15 years with garbage like this hanging around.

Hanging the fraudsters who farked up the system would be a better solution. But that's a solution instead of a power grab so that'll never happen.
 
2012-10-10 01:09:55 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: dbirchall: TheGreatGazoo: Have a 401K? Starting to get some serious money in it? Say $250,000? At a tenth of a percent in and out, that is a $500 charge to roll it over from a 401K to an IRA.

Let's see, 15 times more than I have in my cumulative accounts from every job I've ever had... nope, I'm not feeling a lot of sympathy for anyone who's paid enough to sock away a quarter million for retirement.

What's your plan for retirement?


Oddly, $250,000 shows up in my plan too - that's the life insurance my wife will get when I work myself to death.

/Yes, really.
 
2012-10-10 01:12:23 AM

Sergeant Grumbles: CujoQuarrel: If you only have 16K put aside for retirement I hope you are still in your early 20s.

Someone's really out of touch with how 20-somethings are doing these days.

/28
// -$68,000 dollars in student loans saved up for retirement


And 30-somethings, and 40-somethings who spent most of the Bush years working multiple part-time jobs to try to pay the bills, and even with full-time jobs still work a couple part-time to try to pay off debt faster.
 
2012-10-10 01:26:29 AM

BigJake: They're punishing the wrong activity. A tax on transactions isn't going to change the privatization of profits and the socialization of losses, which might be the biggest reason the collapse occurred. That and taking too many/big risks.


I think you're missing the point: Pricing a hefty chunk of the speculation and automated trading fluff out of the market is a Good Thing(SM). Any non-conventional market trading mechanism created to bypass the system will still get taxed when the money is moved in or out of the market. If the EU regulators are smart (and they are) the member nations have already set up a draconian tax regime for anybody attempting to move capital out of the EU system for the purpose of tax evasion.

/Financial crisis management legislation FTW.
//If a significant portion of the so-called "liquidity" of financial markets had any direct connection to real-world investment (borrowing money to BUILD THINGS), this move might be problematic. 
///It gives the EU time to harmonize their approach to resolving the "too big to fail" problem. *cough glass-steagall cough*
 
2012-10-10 01:26:30 AM

dbirchall: Let's see, 15 times more than I have in my cumulative accounts from every job I've ever had... nope, I'm not feeling a lot of sympathy for anyone who's paid enough to sock away a quarter million for retirement.


yes, and the people who are 'pad enough to sock away' that money did nothing to earn it.

just because you made shiatty choices in life doesn't mean everyone did.
 
Zel
2012-10-10 01:32:03 AM

dbirchall: Sergeant Grumbles: CujoQuarrel: If you only have 16K put aside for retirement I hope you are still in your early 20s.

Someone's really out of touch with how 20-somethings are doing these days.

/28
// -$68,000 dollars in student loans saved up for retirement

And 30-somethings, and 40-somethings who spent most of the Bush years working multiple part-time jobs to try to pay the bills, and even with full-time jobs still work a couple part-time to try to pay off debt faster.


Yes! Let's have one of "those" threads so i can feel better about my financial situation.

Retirement doesnt exist for millenials, heck I'm not sure the US$ will exist in fifty years...
 
2012-10-10 01:45:31 AM

demaL-demaL-yeH: BigJake: They're punishing the wrong activity. A tax on transactions isn't going to change the privatization of profits and the socialization of losses, which might be the biggest reason the collapse occurred. That and taking too many/big risks.

I think you're missing the point: Pricing a hefty chunk of the speculation and automated trading fluff out of the market is a Good Thing(SM). Any non-conventional market trading mechanism created to bypass the system will still get taxed when the money is moved in or out of the market. If the EU regulators are smart (and they are) the member nations have already set up a draconian tax regime for anybody attempting to move capital out of the EU system for the purpose of tax evasion.

/Financial crisis management legislation FTW.
//If a significant portion of the so-called "liquidity" of financial markets had any direct connection to real-world investment (borrowing money to BUILD THINGS), this move might be problematic. 
///It gives the EU time to harmonize their approach to resolving the "too big to fail" problem. *cough glass-steagall cough*


How would this affect say the Singapore/London/US financial market? I doubt that they have already implemented the draconian tax laws or we'd have heard about it. As soon as they start talking about it *BOOM* the money leaves.
 
2012-10-10 02:28:21 AM

CujoQuarrel: AverageAmericanGuy: dbirchall: TheGreatGazoo: Have a 401K? Starting to get some serious money in it? Say $250,000? At a tenth of a percent in and out, that is a $500 charge to roll it over from a 401K to an IRA.

Let's see, 15 times more than I have in my cumulative accounts from every job I've ever had... nope, I'm not feeling a lot of sympathy for anyone who's paid enough to sock away a quarter million for retirement.

What's your plan for retirement?

If you only have 16K put aside for retirement I hope you are still in your early 20s.


Iirc, roughly:
The bottom 20% of the nation have a negative net wealth.
The next twenty around zero.
The bottom sixty percent average to zero net wealth.

But they have fridges and cell phones, so poverty doesn't exist. Or something.

We expect these people to save significant chunks of their income while living day to day and knowing they will be the first to go bankrupt from anything from major illness to minor recession.
 
2012-10-10 03:19:15 AM
Tired Old Worn Out Lt. Cheese Weasel 2012-10-09 09:01:53 PM
(farky'd as: 7324714 Waahh! Libruls Blaem Amurka First)

...The problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of everyone elses money. - Maggie Thatcher.

Is that all you are capable of doing, parroting threadbare 20 year old platitudes?
 
2012-10-10 03:37:18 AM
Kittypie070:  ♥
 
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