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(Some Guy)   Any news story about New York kindergartens is guaranteed to be pure comedy gold. The New NYC Gifted Program test emphasizes "abstract spatial thinking and largely eliminates language"   (isteve.blogspot.com) divider line 41
    More: Strange, New York City, New York, New York kindergartens, computational complexity theory, racial equality, normal schools, kindergartens, packet switches  
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6344 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Oct 2012 at 4:22 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-09 04:47:04 PM  
4 votes:
Cognitive ability is not evenly distributed in the human population. And it can be measured. That is all.
2012-10-09 04:41:38 PM  
4 votes:
You can either use science to design a test that finds the most gifted students or you can use politics to design a test that gives you the PC demographic ratio your personal belief system requires. But these will not be the same test. Nor will the results be the same. Some people have a hard time coming to terms with this, and that causes no end of cognitive dissonance, and in attempting to force reality to conform to their faith a lot of people have done a lot of very stupid things that have more or less destroyed public education in this country.
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-10-09 03:35:18 PM  
4 votes:

RexTalionis: The gifted programs are all bunk.


Well, it must seem that way to the slow ones.
2012-10-09 02:58:24 PM  
4 votes:
I'm SOOOO happy my son goes to a private school. I never have to worry about anything public school ever again.. it's liberating. 47 kids in his 6th grade.. 12 kids per class.. compared to the MS up the road where there are 40 kids per class. fark all that nonsense. Best investment I've ever made and it may be financially painful but damn it's worth it.
2012-10-09 10:32:38 PM  
2 votes:
Sounds like a Racial Diversity Program (No Whitey Program)...not a "gifted" program....why else would you eliminate "language". What...not fair to Illegal Aliens?

Instead of attacking white folks because minority families lack the desire to properly provide basic education for their children.....how about making minority folks "responsible" for their kids basic upbringing and education? Why is it "racist" to expect the same standards from minority families that you do white families.
2012-10-09 06:36:31 PM  
2 votes:

Vectron: xynix: keytronic: It's funny, I got my public school education in Canada (rural Canada at that) and I find that there in the US, the caliber of my education reaches the level of most of my privately educated peers. I don't see how I have any choice but to find a way to get my kid into private, prep school, which sucks because I'm not sure if I'll be making enough income to easily afford a 15k tuition bill. One thing is for sure, I will not throw my son to the wolves and let him fester in the steaming pile of shiat that is the American public school system.

Exactly! My son was born in Ireland and I never envisioned that I would stay there and didn't.. we moved back when he was 5. The education system there though is top notch and they're learning at a college level in 10th grade. Much like a private school does here... What sucks is that I have to spend so much money to give him an education that others in much poorer countries get for free.

It was a no brainer for me.. I had nightmares about sending my kid to a public school after 5th grade. The schools are literally geared for the stupidest person attending.. the next level down is "special ed." There is no compensation for children who have anything bordering on a higher level of intelligence. In fact looking through these comments I see a lot of "bored bored bored" and that's because you're all smarter than Joe Ditch Digger which is what our education system was intended to be used for. They want to educate those with a relative IQ of 90.



It doesn't have to be this way. The US school system only went to crap here when its first priority became racial equality.


You've got it half right. The system went to crap when it's first priority became equality.

In the Olden Days, even when I was a wee lass, the school system wasn't designed for everyone to get A's. It was designed for everyone to learn what he or she could; a very few got to go to college and the rest went to work right out of high school. Not everyone was deemed smart enough to go on to post-secondary education AND THAT WAS OKAY. You didn't NEED four more years of school to work in an office or sell real estate or fix cars or any other entry-level work; and what you did need you could learn on the job: That's what entry-level work was for.

Then, some time in the 80's, we got this idea that everyone needed to go to college and we were somehow doing kids a disservice if we didn't educate them all to a college-entry level; in other words, if we didn't bring them all up to the same level as the very smartest 15% had been at before. Unfortunately, the only way to do that (as was soon discovered) was to bring the college level DOWN to the middle, because there's just no way to bring the average up to the top. You can't make skim milk into cream, but you can make cream into skim milk. And so schools did. When it proved impossible to make everyone into college material, they instead made "college" material less elite.

So it's nothing to do with "racial" equality. Just the Harrison Bergeronization of the school system: Everyone has to be exactly alike. Except nobody will ever be quite alike enough for a school
2012-10-09 06:07:10 PM  
2 votes:
Some time ago, educational psychologists tested a bunch of kids in a school, and singled out 20 who they say were "exceptionally gifted."

Three years later, all twenty were in advanced programs and excelling, and ONLY THEN did they admit, the 20 kids were selected at random; they were all just average to begin with, the perception made all the difference.


\\\ So much for educational science.
2012-10-09 05:11:06 PM  
2 votes:

orbister: FTFA: Several studies show the test produces significant scoring gaps between wealthier white and Asian children and their poor, minority counterparts.

We Europeans can get a bit confused by racial terminology and politics in the US (Spanish-speaking is a race?). Could someone explain to me why Asians don't count as a minority?


Asians, Jews, and Indians don't count as minorities because they're relatively successful in the US. Blacks/Latinos are considered minorities because they commit a disproportionate amount of crime and are disproportionately poor. We have to blame the crime rate/poverty on something, so we blame it on their "minority" status, never mind the fact that other minorities seem to be doing just fine.
2012-10-09 05:02:34 PM  
2 votes:

xynix: Babwa Wawa: There are savants at that age, but they are so few that you don't develop a program around them. If you did, you wouldn't call it a "gifted" program.

It's called TAG and it's really just a way to keep kids from being extremely bored by the dumbed down content created for the lowest common denominator (90 IQ). My son was in it for the 5 years I kept him in public school. They take one day of the week and learn more advanced concepts. It is actually useful because they teach the same things that a child would learn in a private school but its free. By 6th grade however the TAG program get thinned out dramatically based on several criteria and by 8th grade it's thinned out even more. To put it in perspective 1-5th grade about 15% get into TAG and by 8th grade it's close to 3%.

Or you can just send your kid to a private school where they'll learn everything taught in TAG and more.. Mine goes to a college prep school where they teach college prep from 6th to 12th grade. The school has had a 100% college attendance rate since they started graduating kids in 2007 with a 98% "first pick" rate. If you want your kid to be successful then public school is a crap shoot.. you might want to have 3 or 4 kids so one can be successful. If you want your child to have success then pluck them out of public schools after 5th grade and buckle down for the expense of private which is $10,000 to $20,000 a year depending on the school. It is a pure cash outlay.. can't deduct it, get no credits for it, etc etc.


Very much this. I was in the Gifted program at my school (joined in Kindergarten, was actually still in Gifted classes through high school). In elementary school, the gifted classes were one day a week. In 5th grade, we did things like build cars to compete in Odyssey of the Mind (in my year, only one of the cars could be from a kit and they all had to have different sources of power and transfer a balloon from one to the other over an obstacle course, 5 cars total). Middle school and high school, the gifted classes were basically one level above the advanced classes and were individual to subject matter (most kids did not do the 4 major subjects of science/math/english/social studies all in the gifted program), but also required that teachers and school officials approved that the student was qualified to be in that class. Those who were denied (or themselves decided not to do it), were generally put into the advanced classes anyways.

My brother (who due to undiagnosed hearing issues related to allergies was never very strong in languages) should have been put in the program himself, boredom meant that he struggled through school.
2012-10-09 05:02:05 PM  
2 votes:
I think the only "Gifted" program at my school was allowing students to test into 0 hour Algebra I at the local high school in eighth grade. Glad I made that decision to do it, but 7:05 class seemed like a really bad idea during the year. Best part about it was "independent study" when the rest of the class did normal math. I taught myself Python from the official tutorial and changed the course of my life.
2012-10-09 04:59:55 PM  
2 votes:
"You have to believe that what they're doing is a failure or you have to believe that African-American and Latino kids are less gifted," Mr. Borland said. "One of those has to be true."

Pretty sure it's both, dude.
2012-10-09 04:59:45 PM  
2 votes:
I swear - NYC pre-schools and kindergartens are like the freaking gold rush. Every available schemer entrepreneur is setting up a "school" and charging obscene tuition. The free market at its finest.
2012-10-09 04:49:46 PM  
2 votes:
So basically NY is trying to make it to where black kids can pass the "Gifted" test instead of only acing the "special" test. It is good that we muddle down excellence in exchange for "equality"

When everyone is special, and no one is a dumb shiat, we all win!

Except for society, who generally loses, because the dumb shiats are not capable of producing like the "special" kids and end up being dumb shiats anyway despite being handed everything in school.
2012-10-09 04:27:05 PM  
2 votes:

xynix: I'm SOOOO happy my son goes to a private school. I never have to worry about anything public school ever again.. it's liberating. 47 kids in his 6th grade.. 12 kids per class.. compared to the MS up the road where there are 40 kids per class. fark all that nonsense. Best investment I've ever made and it may be financially painful but damn it's worth it.


careful up there, don't want to fall off your high horse.
2012-10-09 04:22:41 PM  
2 votes:

Babwa Wawa: There are savants at that age, but they are so few that you don't develop a program around them. If you did, you wouldn't call it a "gifted" program.


It's called TAG and it's really just a way to keep kids from being extremely bored by the dumbed down content created for the lowest common denominator (90 IQ). My son was in it for the 5 years I kept him in public school. They take one day of the week and learn more advanced concepts. It is actually useful because they teach the same things that a child would learn in a private school but its free. By 6th grade however the TAG program get thinned out dramatically based on several criteria and by 8th grade it's thinned out even more. To put it in perspective 1-5th grade about 15% get into TAG and by 8th grade it's close to 3%.

Or you can just send your kid to a private school where they'll learn everything taught in TAG and more.. Mine goes to a college prep school where they teach college prep from 6th to 12th grade. The school has had a 100% college attendance rate since they started graduating kids in 2007 with a 98% "first pick" rate. If you want your kid to be successful then public school is a crap shoot.. you might want to have 3 or 4 kids so one can be successful. If you want your child to have success then pluck them out of public schools after 5th grade and buckle down for the expense of private which is $10,000 to $20,000 a year depending on the school. It is a pure cash outlay.. can't deduct it, get no credits for it, etc etc.
2012-10-09 03:01:30 PM  
2 votes:
The gifted programs are all bunk.
2012-10-09 02:39:23 PM  
2 votes:
why is that worthy of ridicule? Assuming that labeling students as gifted is worthwhile (a dubious goal in my mind), I think this is a step in the right direction. Many students who should be labeled as gifted aren't because of the language barrier.
2012-10-10 08:58:42 AM  
1 votes:

Amos Quito: Marine1: Amos Quito: Rindred: Cognitive ability is not evenly distributed in the human population. And it can be measured. That is all.


Different environments call for different skill sets.

While forward-thinking, planning, logic and reasoning are skills that would be advantageous in warm climates, they would be utterly essential in cold climates with harsh winters, and those who did not possess such skills would have been Darwinized.

Still doesn't explain the average Russian.


Good point.

/I blame the vodak


I finally figured this one out. It comes down to population density. High pop density means you got more people exchanging ideas more often. It's that "wisdom of crowds" thing. On the British Isles, early on, you had a bunch of people crammed into a small space. Lots of information exchange. Hence, a tech boom relative to most other areas. In Mongolia, in contrast, you had widely spaced tribes with little exchange of information given the comm tech available. Ipso fatso, the Brits became more technologically advanced earlier on. (The reason that this didn't work so well in Micronesia is that they were far more isolated from the Asian mainland than the Brits were from the Continentals). Also, some religious faiths actively discourage human technological achievement, while others do not. Just my 2.
2012-10-09 08:08:12 PM  
1 votes:

Rindred: Cognitive ability is not evenly distributed in the human population. And it can be measured. That is all.


Response:
bfgb.files.wordpress.com


Still, if we spent a fraction of what we spend on polishing a dog turd in special ed instead identifying and promoting gifted students, the net benefit to society would be much higher.

Difficulty: Any test can be beat, and parents will work hard to get their snowflake in.
2012-10-09 06:37:36 PM  
1 votes:

keytronic: Racial equality? That's such a baloney argument for why public schools in this country suck. This idea that one racial group is what's bringing down our educational system. I teach at a community college, and black women and men are consistently among my brighter students.

It comes down to money, plain and simple. We don't pay enough to attract enough of the smart, talented people to teach.


Yep. There's another reason too, which sort of gets scratched here:

Gyrfalcon: Gifted programs can be a two-edged sword, imo. They can be great for kids who otherwise would be totally unchallenged by regular classes, assuming the teachers are providing adequate work in the right areas. However, they can also create blinders on adults so that they only see a "smart kid" and don't notice that the child may be really smart about reading and really struggling in math. Or vice versa.


Class sizes. The more students you have, the less individualized attention each gets, the lower the probability of really noticing a need, the later in life it will be noticed (if ever), the more daunting the differential between where they are and where they should be. Breaking them up into "gifted" and "normal" is a step sort of in the right direction, but not really. Like you said, rarely is someone gifted in all subjects... well, at least not equally.

Another point along the same lines: I'd imagine it's all but impossible to create a one-size-fits-all educational program to begin with. I realize truly individualized education is a bit much to ask logistically, but you've got 30 kids and because they're all 2nd graders you assume that they're all going to be matched to math at the 2nd grade level, English at the 2nd grade level, etc. Really? When you spell it out like that, it's obvious how ridiculous it is. Some kids will excel at some subjects, some won't. Why not just place them per-subject like universities do? Actually, that was starting to be a thing when I was in late middle-school, but they only had it for math. You could take 8th or 9th grade math in 7th grade, but you were still fixed to your actual grade level in EVERY OTHER SUBJECT. Yeah, there's the naysayer argument of "b-but the 4th graders in the 4th grade math class will feel dumb if there's third graders in their class! How will they socialize?!" You could always bring back homeroom as the more age-based grouping or if you insist on the touchy-feely stuff, you could just name the classes by topic rather than grade number to minimize any stigma. Hell, you can get rid of stuff like "the remedial class" and just have them retake the course; that's got to be better in terms of ostracizing anyway.

The ironic thing is that these days we're so entrenched in the mind set of "each snowflake is so special an unique!" then we STILL stick as many of them as we can into the same room and try to teach them all the same way.

/Bring back shop while you're at it
//rant over
2012-10-09 06:03:27 PM  
1 votes:

Vectron:


It doesn't have to be this way. The US school system only went to crap here when its first priority became racial equality.




Racial equality? That's such a baloney argument for why public schools in this country suck. This idea that one racial group is what's bringing down our educational system. I teach at a community college, and black women and men are consistently among my brighter students. 

It comes down to money, plain and simple. We don't pay enough to attract enough of the smart, talented people to teach.

In the late 90's, I attended one of Canada's more prestigious universities that had one of the highest enrollment standards in the country. One of our unique programs that was very competitive to get into was called concurrent education. Basically, you earned your teachers degree at the same time as your earned your Bachelor's degree. Think about this, one of the most competitive programs at one of the most competitive schools in Canada was a teaching program.

Why? Because in Canada, teachers make pretty good wages, they have a good pension, and they are respected members of the community.

Could you imagine the brightest in this country fighting to get into a teaching program? Why bother, so you can make $43,000 a year and get told you suck by your government leaders every election?
2012-10-09 05:55:59 PM  
1 votes:

RexTalionis: Vangor: RexTalionis: Fine. The majority of gifted programs are bunk.

Happier?

I would say this is a result of our low prioritization and hostility towards gifted programs rather than a failure of programs for gifted students conceptually, but sure, I am happier.

The lower prioritization is a much more recent phenomenon, largely caused by No Child Left Behind and the emphasis on standardized testing.

The problem with gifted programs generally is that they're largely inconsistent and, for the most part, run by individuals who have no idea what they are doing teaching gifted children. There are exceptional programs, sure, but they are, for lack of a better word, exceptional.


Mostly all of these.

I was lucky enough to be in a "gifted" program when I was in middle school. The only two grades out of 12 when I wasn't totally bored out of my mind...or completely confused and unable to understand what was going on. Because although I was "gifted" when it came to things like English and social studies, I was clueless when it came to math, BUT since I was supposedly "gifted", nobody noticed that I was also dyslexic and thus getting all my math wrong because I couldn't tell 8's and 9's apart (and still can't unless I make an effort to do so).

Gifted programs can be a two-edged sword, imo. They can be great for kids who otherwise would be totally unchallenged by regular classes, assuming the teachers are providing adequate work in the right areas. However, they can also create blinders on adults so that they only see a "smart kid" and don't notice that the child may be really smart about reading and really struggling in math. Or vice versa.
2012-10-09 05:52:23 PM  
1 votes:

Random Discord: ProfessorOhki: the NNAT, will count for two-thirds of a student's score, said city officials, who signed a three-year, $5.5 million contract with the testing company

The Otis-Lennon School Ability Test, or OLSAT, which increasing numbers of children had prepared for intensely, will drop to a third of the total from 75%.

Why don't we just have a hundred different tests!?


Come to California, we do. STAR, CELDT, CST, CMA, CAPA, STS, EAP, CAHSEE, PFT, OLSAT, MARS, ACT, SAT, AP, DRA.


You forgot the CTBS. Actually, is that still a thing? It's been a while. I'm more and more convinced that the education industry is bought and paid for by Big #2 Pencil.
2012-10-09 05:45:24 PM  
1 votes:
All the private schools where I grew up had a religious bent, catholic etc. My parents pulled me out of private in 2nd grade because they were spending an hour a day teaching me "religion".
2012-10-09 05:43:56 PM  
1 votes:

xynix: keytronic: It's funny, I got my public school education in Canada (rural Canada at that) and I find that there in the US, the caliber of my education reaches the level of most of my privately educated peers. I don't see how I have any choice but to find a way to get my kid into private, prep school, which sucks because I'm not sure if I'll be making enough income to easily afford a 15k tuition bill. One thing is for sure, I will not throw my son to the wolves and let him fester in the steaming pile of shiat that is the American public school system.

Exactly! My son was born in Ireland and I never envisioned that I would stay there and didn't.. we moved back when he was 5. The education system there though is top notch and they're learning at a college level in 10th grade. Much like a private school does here... What sucks is that I have to spend so much money to give him an education that others in much poorer countries get for free.

It was a no brainer for me.. I had nightmares about sending my kid to a public school after 5th grade. The schools are literally geared for the stupidest person attending.. the next level down is "special ed." There is no compensation for children who have anything bordering on a higher level of intelligence. In fact looking through these comments I see a lot of "bored bored bored" and that's because you're all smarter than Joe Ditch Digger which is what our education system was intended to be used for. They want to educate those with a relative IQ of 90.




It doesn't have to be this way. The US school system only went to crap here when its first priority became racial equality.
2012-10-09 05:43:04 PM  
1 votes:
From a previous thread but appropriate

"A talented head cook at a school in central Sweden has been told to stop baking fresh bread and to cut back on her wide-ranging veggie buffets because it was unfair that students at other schools didn't have access to the unusually tasty offerings.

"A menu has been developed... It is about making a collective effort on quality, to improve school meals overall and to try and ensure everyone does the same,"
2012-10-09 05:34:27 PM  
1 votes:

RexTalionis: WTP 2: lower the bar till everyone is in.

Actually, if you read the article, you'll note that critics are saying that the new NNAT tests are too difficult and are confusing even to some adults.



Well, fact is that "some adults" aren't terribly "gifted".
2012-10-09 05:28:30 PM  
1 votes:

Vectron: WTP 2: lower the bar till everyone is in.

That is the only solution. Dumb down tests ntil everybody passes and the administration can meet its diversity goals by picking students from racial groups at random. We are already there.


We should do the same thing with pro sports. Clearly the there are significant flaws with the tryouts and recruiting system.
2012-10-09 05:24:30 PM  
1 votes:

WTP 2: lower the bar till everyone is in.


That is the only solution. Dumb down tests ntil everybody passes and the administration can meet its diversity goals by picking students from racial groups at random. We are already there.
2012-10-09 05:08:10 PM  
1 votes:

Arkanaut: Or you can try to get them into one of many specialized high schools around the city, all of which are just as likely to get them into a decent college as a private school, at a much lower cost.

Your kid's school teaches college prep for 6 years? I'm imagining 6 years of SAT practice exams -- tell me it's not like that.


Three year waiting lists.. Still ran by the government. Charter schools aren't much better but they -are- better than public schools.

The school simply teaches stuff that's higher ranked than public schools.. So by 11th grade you're learning college material and by 12th you're doing junior level college academics. Not to mention the slew of sports.. you name it and they have it as well as a huge athletic campus. Teachers that call you and chat about how your child is doing in so and so class every couple weeks. Constant updates on positives or negatives and they know the student because they only have 46 total spread through 6 classes. Heads of the school who know your name and know your family and know what you want your child to get out of the school and care about the results.

In addition to this they have life coaches that go active in 9th grade through 12th so kids really understand the college experience and go there not to party but to work. Tons of arts and culture lessons including a 2 month "minimester" trip to Italy in the junior year, a one month trip to Kenya in the 12th grade to help out undernourished kids, etc etc etc.. The school doesn't just teach numbers and words it teaches life and it's an extension of what I teach my son and have taught him since he was born.

In addition to THAT the kids that go to this school all have the same discipline and mentality on education. I know the kids he's hanging out with because I know their parents and I know their objectives are the same as mine.. They are not paying $20k a year so their kid can screw around. They have skin in the game and as an extension their kids do to. Which is why they have a 100% college attendance rate.

I mean if you're going to go through the trouble of raising a kid you might as well put as much into their future success as possible.
2012-10-09 05:08:06 PM  
1 votes:
You can totally demolish the "gifted" program advantage by having a half-way educated adult actually speak to the child in non-baby talk while involving them in activities throughout the day and spending 30 minutes a night reading books to the child. And turn off the damn TV.

/not trendy, I know
2012-10-09 05:04:05 PM  
1 votes:
FTFA: Several studies show the test produces significant scoring gaps between wealthier white and Asian children and their poor, minority counterparts.

We Europeans can get a bit confused by racial terminology and politics in the US (Spanish-speaking is a race?). Could someone explain to me why Asians don't count as a minority?
2012-10-09 05:01:43 PM  
1 votes:

RexTalionis: Fine. The majority of gifted programs are bunk.

Happier?


I would say this is a result of our low prioritization and hostility towards gifted programs rather than a failure of programs for gifted students conceptually, but sure, I am happier.
2012-10-09 05:01:31 PM  
1 votes:
This kind of tests would have helped me a lot in my youth. I'm an aspie, and didn't find out about Asperger's until my late 40's. When I was a kid I was very bright in some aspects, but not languages. Didn't start talking until much later than most. Same with writing. And I flunked both 4th & 7th grade because I couldn't get a grasp of French (even though my mother tongue is Portuguese). And when I moved to the US in back in 1983, it took me about a decade to get comfortable with the language, yet I still speak it with a very thick Brazilian accent to this day.

So make fun of this program all you want. Truth is it is a great idea.
2012-10-09 05:00:13 PM  
1 votes:
I have a gifted kindergartner who is very advanced in language and relatively terrible at abstract spatial thinking. AND he's white. I don't live in NYC, but clearly he wouldn't get in to their program.

But since I'M also white (see the connection?), I'll just put him in private school. He'll be happier there with the other white kids, anyway.

Maybe he'll make the basketball team.
2012-10-09 04:58:37 PM  
1 votes:

atomicmask: So basically NY is trying to make it to where black kids can pass the "Gifted" test instead of only acing the "special" test. It is good that we muddle down excellence in exchange for "equality"

When everyone is special, and no one is a dumb shiat, we all win!

Except for society, who generally loses, because the dumb shiats are not capable of producing like the "special" kids and end up being dumb shiats anyway despite being handed everything in school.


Only took 34 posts to get the truth.
2012-10-09 04:46:21 PM  
1 votes:
From TFA:

African-Americans don't speak English, so how can they compete with people from China on a test in English?

gawker.com
2012-10-09 04:36:38 PM  
1 votes:

cgraves67: When we talk about removing language, are we talking about helping kids regardless of their native language or about teaching bright kids to do Newton's Calculus, but they can't string a coherent sentence together?


Can't judge. All languages are equal and it's bigoted to expect people to adapt to the decrepit American culture by learning how to use English... and that goes for anyone who comes to this country.
2012-10-09 04:25:52 PM  
1 votes:
Gifted tests are supposed to be administered by a school psychologist. How the hell are kids studying for them in the first place? these aren't the SATs.
2012-10-09 03:23:42 PM  
1 votes:

downstairs:


Kindergartners?  Gifted?  No.  They're 5 freaking years old.


Hence my use of the word "dubious"
2012-10-09 02:42:21 PM  
1 votes:
In other words, the skills that make Peyton Manning so great.
 
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