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(Some Guy)   Any news story about New York kindergartens is guaranteed to be pure comedy gold. The New NYC Gifted Program test emphasizes "abstract spatial thinking and largely eliminates language"   (isteve.blogspot.com) divider line 201
    More: Strange, New York City, New York, New York kindergartens, computational complexity theory, racial equality, normal schools, kindergartens, packet switches  
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6340 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Oct 2012 at 4:22 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-09 05:41:02 PM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Arkanaut: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: orbister: FTFA: Several studies show the test produces significant scoring gaps between wealthier white and Asian children and their poor, minority counterparts.

We Europeans can get a bit confused by racial terminology and politics in the US (Spanish-speaking is a race?). Could someone explain to me why Asians don't count as a minority?

Asians, Jews, and Indians don't count as minorities because they're relatively successful in the US. Blacks/Latinos are considered minorities because they commit a disproportionate amount of crime and are disproportionately poor. We have to blame the crime rate/poverty on something, so we blame it on their "minority" status, never mind the fact that other minorities seem to be doing just fine.

So we blame genetic deficiency instead? Never mind that African / West Indian immigrants are about as successful as their Asian counterparts...


I'd blame it on the culture, myself.


^ THIS ^

And much of the blame for the state of the "culture" lies in the government programs that were supposedly designed to help these "minorities".

They did just the opposite.
 
2012-10-09 05:41:09 PM

John Dewey: Assuming that labeling students as gifted is worthwhile (a dubious goal in my mind)


Why is it dubious? The "gifted" classes that I was in in high school were excellent - the students were almost all there to learn and the pace was very good. The few classes I took that were with the general population were dumbed down because the teacher always had to slow down for the stupid/lazy ones.
 
2012-10-09 05:43:04 PM
From a previous thread but appropriate

"A talented head cook at a school in central Sweden has been told to stop baking fresh bread and to cut back on her wide-ranging veggie buffets because it was unfair that students at other schools didn't have access to the unusually tasty offerings.

"A menu has been developed... It is about making a collective effort on quality, to improve school meals overall and to try and ensure everyone does the same,"
 
2012-10-09 05:43:29 PM
Do it. Have different criteria for giftedness in different schools in different cities all over the country. There is no single model for what can and should be developed and we need to stop pretending like there is.
 
2012-10-09 05:43:56 PM

xynix: keytronic: It's funny, I got my public school education in Canada (rural Canada at that) and I find that there in the US, the caliber of my education reaches the level of most of my privately educated peers. I don't see how I have any choice but to find a way to get my kid into private, prep school, which sucks because I'm not sure if I'll be making enough income to easily afford a 15k tuition bill. One thing is for sure, I will not throw my son to the wolves and let him fester in the steaming pile of shiat that is the American public school system.

Exactly! My son was born in Ireland and I never envisioned that I would stay there and didn't.. we moved back when he was 5. The education system there though is top notch and they're learning at a college level in 10th grade. Much like a private school does here... What sucks is that I have to spend so much money to give him an education that others in much poorer countries get for free.

It was a no brainer for me.. I had nightmares about sending my kid to a public school after 5th grade. The schools are literally geared for the stupidest person attending.. the next level down is "special ed." There is no compensation for children who have anything bordering on a higher level of intelligence. In fact looking through these comments I see a lot of "bored bored bored" and that's because you're all smarter than Joe Ditch Digger which is what our education system was intended to be used for. They want to educate those with a relative IQ of 90.




It doesn't have to be this way. The US school system only went to crap here when its first priority became racial equality.
 
2012-10-09 05:45:24 PM
All the private schools where I grew up had a religious bent, catholic etc. My parents pulled me out of private in 2nd grade because they were spending an hour a day teaching me "religion".
 
2012-10-09 05:46:51 PM

indylaw: Why is it dubious?


Little known, but the Three Ring Conception and SEM of Renzulli does not label people or behaviors as gifted, only services. While labeling generally has a positive influence, this is measured within the confines of our current educational system where labeling is necessary for services, but this system routinely fails to appropriately service gifted students. Is an interesting point about why labeling would be "dubious", though I am not sure this was the point he was making.
 
2012-10-09 05:48:26 PM
FTH: The New NYC Gifted Program test emphasizes "abstract spatial thinking"

Stereotypically, this is where boys that age excel...

FTH: "and largely eliminates language"

Stereotypically, this is where boys that age are weakest...

Hrm. Is the author sure this is actually aimed at African American kids and not a subtle way to exclude women? Maybe I'm more of a feminist than I expected, but reading the headline I expected to find the article to be about boys and girls, not African American kids and other kids.
 
2012-10-09 05:50:11 PM

Techhell: FTH: The New NYC Gifted Program test emphasizes "abstract spatial thinking"

Stereotypically, this is where boys that age excel...

FTH: "and largely eliminates language"

Stereotypically, this is where boys that age are weakest...

Hrm. Is the author sure this is actually aimed at African American kids and not a subtle way to exclude women? Maybe I'm more of a feminist than I expected, but reading the headline I expected to find the article to be about boys and girls, not African American kids and other kids.


Don't worry your pretty little head over it.
 
2012-10-09 05:50:22 PM
Half of you are below average.
 
2012-10-09 05:50:32 PM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Arkanaut: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: orbister: FTFA: Several studies show the test produces significant scoring gaps between wealthier white and Asian children and their poor, minority counterparts.

We Europeans can get a bit confused by racial terminology and politics in the US (Spanish-speaking is a race?). Could someone explain to me why Asians don't count as a minority?

Asians, Jews, and Indians don't count as minorities because they're relatively successful in the US. Blacks/Latinos are considered minorities because they commit a disproportionate amount of crime and are disproportionately poor. We have to blame the crime rate/poverty on something, so we blame it on their "minority" status, never mind the fact that other minorities seem to be doing just fine.

So we blame genetic deficiency instead? Never mind that African / West Indian immigrants are about as successful as their Asian counterparts...

I'd blame it on the culture, myself.


Whoa whoa whoa, there, buddy. Can't do that. Obviously all of this is because of "willful neglect" on the part of the school system.

This guy says so:



"At this rate it would take nearly 50 years for black males to graduate at the same rate as white males," said John H. Jackson, president and CEO of the foundation. "I don't think the country can wait. I don't think any parent or student can wait for half a century to have the same opportunities, education, jobs as their white male counterparts."

The foundation said improving the graduation rates of black and Latino students has become more urgent now that the majority of babies born in the U.S. are minorities.

"These outcomes are not evidence of flaws of young men, but evidence of willful neglect by federal, state, local elected policymakers and leaders," said Jackson, who is participating in this week's Congressional Black Caucus legislative conference, which includes education access on its agenda.

With the release of the report, his organization is calling for a moratorium on school suspensions, which have been shown to be used disproportionately on minority children and children with disabilities. The group also wants more support for students through individual plans that offer help such as mental health and health care, tutoring and mentoring so they can catch up in school.

Such support can help children reach the bar that has been set by the standards-driven education approach the country has taken for the past decade, which emphasizes raising standards, assessment and teacher evaluations, Jackson said.

States use different methods to calculate high school graduation rates. The Schott Foundation said it is aware of the differences and calculates graduation rates as the number of students receiving diplomas divided by the number of students in ninth grade four years earlier. It counts only diplomas accepted by post-secondary institutions, not GEDs or local diplomas, offered in some districts for students who are not college-bound.


If we just get some more money from the well-performing school districts and shuffle it to those not doing so well, we should have this fixed in the next decade.*

*we really mean it this time, the last five decades were mulligans
 
2012-10-09 05:51:29 PM
Arkanaut: xynix: Or you can just send your kid to a private school where they'll learn everything taught in TAG and more.. Mine goes to a college prep school where they teach college prep from 6th to 12th grade. The school has had a 100% college attendance rate since they started graduating kids in 2007 with a 98% "first pick" rate. If you want your kid to be successful then public school is a crap shoot.. you might want to have 3 or 4 kids so one can be successful. If you want your child to have success then pluck them out of public schools after 5th grade and buckle down for the expense of private which is $10,000 to $20,000 a year depending on the school. It is a pure cash outlay.. can't deduct it, get no credits for it, etc etc.

Or you can try to get them into one of many specialized high schools around the city, all of which are just as likely to get them into a decent college as a private school, at a much lower cost.


Or you can just go to public school for free, get in to public college for cheap, and still get a six-figure job in Manhattan because there is going to be a larger population of people who went to cheaper colleges in hiring positions than there are people who dropped $400k in Ivy.
 
2012-10-09 05:51:58 PM

Techhell: FTH: The New NYC Gifted Program test emphasizes "abstract spatial thinking"

Stereotypically, this is where boys that age excel...

FTH: "and largely eliminates language"

Stereotypically, this is where boys that age are weakest...

Hrm. Is the author sure this is actually aimed at African American kids and not a subtle way to exclude women? Maybe I'm more of a feminist than I expected, but reading the headline I expected to find the article to be about boys and girls, not African American kids and other kids.


Given that young men are currently lagging behind their female counterparts in both high school graduation rates and number of college diplomas, I say maybe it's time we do something for the boys. They are roughly half of our society. It doesn't help to have them remain stupid.
 
2012-10-09 05:52:23 PM

Random Discord: ProfessorOhki: the NNAT, will count for two-thirds of a student's score, said city officials, who signed a three-year, $5.5 million contract with the testing company

The Otis-Lennon School Ability Test, or OLSAT, which increasing numbers of children had prepared for intensely, will drop to a third of the total from 75%.

Why don't we just have a hundred different tests!?


Come to California, we do. STAR, CELDT, CST, CMA, CAPA, STS, EAP, CAHSEE, PFT, OLSAT, MARS, ACT, SAT, AP, DRA.


You forgot the CTBS. Actually, is that still a thing? It's been a while. I'm more and more convinced that the education industry is bought and paid for by Big #2 Pencil.
 
2012-10-09 05:55:59 PM

RexTalionis: Vangor: RexTalionis: Fine. The majority of gifted programs are bunk.

Happier?

I would say this is a result of our low prioritization and hostility towards gifted programs rather than a failure of programs for gifted students conceptually, but sure, I am happier.

The lower prioritization is a much more recent phenomenon, largely caused by No Child Left Behind and the emphasis on standardized testing.

The problem with gifted programs generally is that they're largely inconsistent and, for the most part, run by individuals who have no idea what they are doing teaching gifted children. There are exceptional programs, sure, but they are, for lack of a better word, exceptional.


Mostly all of these.

I was lucky enough to be in a "gifted" program when I was in middle school. The only two grades out of 12 when I wasn't totally bored out of my mind...or completely confused and unable to understand what was going on. Because although I was "gifted" when it came to things like English and social studies, I was clueless when it came to math, BUT since I was supposedly "gifted", nobody noticed that I was also dyslexic and thus getting all my math wrong because I couldn't tell 8's and 9's apart (and still can't unless I make an effort to do so).

Gifted programs can be a two-edged sword, imo. They can be great for kids who otherwise would be totally unchallenged by regular classes, assuming the teachers are providing adequate work in the right areas. However, they can also create blinders on adults so that they only see a "smart kid" and don't notice that the child may be really smart about reading and really struggling in math. Or vice versa.
 
2012-10-09 05:58:37 PM

Rindred: Cognitive ability is not evenly distributed in the human population. And it can be measured. That is all.



Different environments call for different skill sets.

While forward-thinking, planning, logic and reasoning are skills that would be advantageous in warm climates, they would be utterly essential in cold climates with harsh winters, and those who did not possess such skills would have been Darwinized.
 
2012-10-09 05:59:42 PM

Amos Quito: Rindred: Cognitive ability is not evenly distributed in the human population. And it can be measured. That is all.


Different environments call for different skill sets.

While forward-thinking, planning, logic and reasoning are skills that would be advantageous in warm climates, they would be utterly essential in cold climates with harsh winters, and those who did not possess such skills would have been Darwinized.


Still doesn't explain the average Russian.
 
2012-10-09 06:03:01 PM

Marine1: Amos Quito: Rindred: Cognitive ability is not evenly distributed in the human population. And it can be measured. That is all.


Different environments call for different skill sets.

While forward-thinking, planning, logic and reasoning are skills that would be advantageous in warm climates, they would be utterly essential in cold climates with harsh winters, and those who did not possess such skills would have been Darwinized.

Still doesn't explain the average Russian.



Good point.

/I blame the vodak
 
2012-10-09 06:03:27 PM

Vectron:


It doesn't have to be this way. The US school system only went to crap here when its first priority became racial equality.




Racial equality? That's such a baloney argument for why public schools in this country suck. This idea that one racial group is what's bringing down our educational system. I teach at a community college, and black women and men are consistently among my brighter students. 

It comes down to money, plain and simple. We don't pay enough to attract enough of the smart, talented people to teach.

In the late 90's, I attended one of Canada's more prestigious universities that had one of the highest enrollment standards in the country. One of our unique programs that was very competitive to get into was called concurrent education. Basically, you earned your teachers degree at the same time as your earned your Bachelor's degree. Think about this, one of the most competitive programs at one of the most competitive schools in Canada was a teaching program.

Why? Because in Canada, teachers make pretty good wages, they have a good pension, and they are respected members of the community.

Could you imagine the brightest in this country fighting to get into a teaching program? Why bother, so you can make $43,000 a year and get told you suck by your government leaders every election?
 
2012-10-09 06:03:55 PM

Amos Quito: Marine1: Amos Quito: Rindred: Cognitive ability is not evenly distributed in the human population. And it can be measured. That is all.


Different environments call for different skill sets.

While forward-thinking, planning, logic and reasoning are skills that would be advantageous in warm climates, they would be utterly essential in cold climates with harsh winters, and those who did not possess such skills would have been Darwinized.

Still doesn't explain the average Russian.


Good point.

/I blame the vodak


Or Sarah Palin, for that matter.

/I'm an equal-opportunity insulter
 
2012-10-09 06:04:34 PM

jshine: BigLuca: This reminds me of the time I did my Calc final using interpretive dance and the projection of positive vibes. Of course, that was mostly the acid talking, but still.

Memories.


When you encountered a divergent infinite series in your interpretive dance, did you run out of the room?


Exit, stage left!

/heavens to Mergatroid
 
2012-10-09 06:06:37 PM
my kids are acing all these standardized tests, I realized the real measure of their IQ when they found out about these OLSATs and immediatly looked them up on google and started (on their own) to take sample tests...farking 7 year olds these days... i would have killed for google at that age.
 
2012-10-09 06:06:59 PM
FTA: As everybody seems to know lately, African-Americans aren't very good with language (the Word Gap), but they're aces with "abstract spatial thinking."
www.biography.com
What?
cltampa.com
What?
upload.wikimedia.org
What? 

/Three off the top of my head...
 
2012-10-09 06:07:10 PM
Some time ago, educational psychologists tested a bunch of kids in a school, and singled out 20 who they say were "exceptionally gifted."

Three years later, all twenty were in advanced programs and excelling, and ONLY THEN did they admit, the 20 kids were selected at random; they were all just average to begin with, the perception made all the difference.


\\\ So much for educational science.
 
2012-10-09 06:07:25 PM
3.bp.blogspot.com 

White boys will have an unfair advantage.
 
2012-10-09 06:08:16 PM

LograyX: FTA: As everybody seems to know lately, African-Americans aren't very good with language (the Word Gap), but they're aces with "abstract spatial thinking."

What?

What?

What? 

/Three off the top of my head...


Three what off the top of your head?
 
2012-10-09 06:10:22 PM

xynix: Babwa Wawa: There are savants at that age, but they are so few that you don't develop a program around them. If you did, you wouldn't call it a "gifted" program.

It's called TAG and it's really just a way to keep kids from being extremely bored by the dumbed down content created for the lowest common denominator (90 IQ). My son was in it for the 5 years I kept him in public school. They take one day of the week and learn more advanced concepts. It is actually useful because they teach the same things that a child would learn in a private school but its free. By 6th grade however the TAG program get thinned out dramatically based on several criteria and by 8th grade it's thinned out even more. To put it in perspective 1-5th grade about 15% get into TAG and by 8th grade it's close to 3%.

Or you can just send your kid to a private school where they'll learn everything taught in TAG and more.. Mine goes to a college prep school where they teach college prep from 6th to 12th grade. The school has had a 100% college attendance rate since they started graduating kids in 2007 with a 98% "first pick" rate. If you want your kid to be successful then public school is a crap shoot.. you might want to have 3 or 4 kids so one can be successful. If you want your child to have success then pluck them out of public schools after 5th grade and buckle down for the expense of private which is $10,000 to $20,000 a year depending on the school. It is a pure cash outlay.. can't deduct it, get no credits for it, etc etc.


Of you can save all that money and teach them the difference at home.

/I can afford private school, but i think public school is useful at their age.
//not difficult to teach kids things when they actually want to learn... 7 and 8 now... might not be the case when they get to their teens.
 
2012-10-09 06:12:45 PM
Whoever thought of a gifted test for kindergartner's must have had an iq stated as potato.
 
2012-10-09 06:18:00 PM

LograyX: FTA: As everybody seems to know lately, African-Americans aren't very good with language (the Word Gap), but they're aces with "abstract spatial thinking."
[www.biography.com image 402x402]
What?
[cltampa.com image 500x407]
What?
[upload.wikimedia.org image 175x244]
What? 

/Three off the top of my head...



I can't imagine why children raised in a CULTURE where the spoken words used bear little semblance to their written counterparts would have language difficulties in an educational setting.

Can't imagine.

/If you'd like some examples, feel free to axe
 
2012-10-09 06:28:02 PM

Ambitwistor: Abstract spatial thinking?

[eartfair.com image 288x300]


Pfft, that's an easy one. The answer is 42.
 
2012-10-09 06:29:38 PM
As someone the system labelled 'Gifted' I just want to say my piece, CSB bro time:

When I was accepted into the gifted program, all the children had a choice to go. All except me. My parents had struggled with my education for years. They could not understand why I did not flow with the class. They did not understand why I struggled with many concepts and asked wildly off topic questions about them. When I was "tested" and "shown to be gifted" they thought all their problems were solved. Off to a different school I went. More tests, more reports, faster paced learning, less practice time, extra work etc. This, to me, was a bad choice as I had recognised I was struggling with certain concepts. I petitioned both the teachers and the principal and my parents to go back to my normal school, all of which was met with "But your potential would be wasted." I tried to explain that most of my problems stem from the fact I started school a year early, and that developmentally I was better suited being in another grade or the non-gifted program. None of this was respected.

I was a terrible, horrible student all the rests of my days in school. Now that I'm 31 and in the work force, I'm going back as an adult and re-learning the concepts I failed to being part of the "gifted" program. I'm intelligent, but I'm not more intelligent nor am I better than others. This game is simply that, a game. Your kid's education is the responsibility of everyone.

While I cannot say it 'wrecked my life', I can say it certainly set me back. Sure I could have 'buckled down' or 'quit slacking' or 'put your nose to the grindstone' or any of the other useless suggestions directed at me. It all comes down to this: I would have done better and learned more had I remained in the regular classes.
 
2012-10-09 06:29:59 PM

Amos Quito: /If you'd like some examples, feel free to axe


You aren't saying that "ask" and "axe" don't have distinctive sounds, are you??

/It's "CAVALRY", you twits! Not "CALVERY"!
 
2012-10-09 06:33:44 PM
Stanford-Binet don't care about black people.
 
2012-10-09 06:36:31 PM

Vectron: xynix: keytronic: It's funny, I got my public school education in Canada (rural Canada at that) and I find that there in the US, the caliber of my education reaches the level of most of my privately educated peers. I don't see how I have any choice but to find a way to get my kid into private, prep school, which sucks because I'm not sure if I'll be making enough income to easily afford a 15k tuition bill. One thing is for sure, I will not throw my son to the wolves and let him fester in the steaming pile of shiat that is the American public school system.

Exactly! My son was born in Ireland and I never envisioned that I would stay there and didn't.. we moved back when he was 5. The education system there though is top notch and they're learning at a college level in 10th grade. Much like a private school does here... What sucks is that I have to spend so much money to give him an education that others in much poorer countries get for free.

It was a no brainer for me.. I had nightmares about sending my kid to a public school after 5th grade. The schools are literally geared for the stupidest person attending.. the next level down is "special ed." There is no compensation for children who have anything bordering on a higher level of intelligence. In fact looking through these comments I see a lot of "bored bored bored" and that's because you're all smarter than Joe Ditch Digger which is what our education system was intended to be used for. They want to educate those with a relative IQ of 90.



It doesn't have to be this way. The US school system only went to crap here when its first priority became racial equality.


You've got it half right. The system went to crap when it's first priority became equality.

In the Olden Days, even when I was a wee lass, the school system wasn't designed for everyone to get A's. It was designed for everyone to learn what he or she could; a very few got to go to college and the rest went to work right out of high school. Not everyone was deemed smart enough to go on to post-secondary education AND THAT WAS OKAY. You didn't NEED four more years of school to work in an office or sell real estate or fix cars or any other entry-level work; and what you did need you could learn on the job: That's what entry-level work was for.

Then, some time in the 80's, we got this idea that everyone needed to go to college and we were somehow doing kids a disservice if we didn't educate them all to a college-entry level; in other words, if we didn't bring them all up to the same level as the very smartest 15% had been at before. Unfortunately, the only way to do that (as was soon discovered) was to bring the college level DOWN to the middle, because there's just no way to bring the average up to the top. You can't make skim milk into cream, but you can make cream into skim milk. And so schools did. When it proved impossible to make everyone into college material, they instead made "college" material less elite.

So it's nothing to do with "racial" equality. Just the Harrison Bergeronization of the school system: Everyone has to be exactly alike. Except nobody will ever be quite alike enough for a school
 
2012-10-09 06:37:12 PM

HotIgneous Intruder: Half of you are below average.


Thats bullshiat, and I have a participation trophy to prove it.
 
2012-10-09 06:37:33 PM

keytronic: Vectron:


It doesn't have to be this way. The US school system only went to crap here when its first priority became racial equality.



Racial equality? That's such a baloney argument for why public schools in this country suck. This idea that one racial group is what's bringing down our educational system. I teach at a community college, and black women and men are consistently among my brighter students. 

It comes down to money, plain and simple. We don't pay enough to attract enough of the smart, talented people to teach.

In the late 90's, I attended one of Canada's more prestigious universities that had one of the highest enrollment standards in the country. One of our unique programs that was very competitive to get into was called concurrent education. Basically, you earned your teachers degree at the same time as your earned your Bachelor's degree. Think about this, one of the most competitive programs at one of the most competitive schools in Canada was a teaching program.

Why? Because in Canada, teachers make pretty good wages, they have a good pension, and they are respected members of the community.

Could you imagine the brightest in this country fighting to get into a teaching program? Why bother, so you can make $43,000 a year and get told you suck by your government leaders every election?


We're spending the money on giving my grandmother's 84-year-old husband knee replacements.
 
2012-10-09 06:37:36 PM

keytronic: Racial equality? That's such a baloney argument for why public schools in this country suck. This idea that one racial group is what's bringing down our educational system. I teach at a community college, and black women and men are consistently among my brighter students.

It comes down to money, plain and simple. We don't pay enough to attract enough of the smart, talented people to teach.


Yep. There's another reason too, which sort of gets scratched here:

Gyrfalcon: Gifted programs can be a two-edged sword, imo. They can be great for kids who otherwise would be totally unchallenged by regular classes, assuming the teachers are providing adequate work in the right areas. However, they can also create blinders on adults so that they only see a "smart kid" and don't notice that the child may be really smart about reading and really struggling in math. Or vice versa.


Class sizes. The more students you have, the less individualized attention each gets, the lower the probability of really noticing a need, the later in life it will be noticed (if ever), the more daunting the differential between where they are and where they should be. Breaking them up into "gifted" and "normal" is a step sort of in the right direction, but not really. Like you said, rarely is someone gifted in all subjects... well, at least not equally.

Another point along the same lines: I'd imagine it's all but impossible to create a one-size-fits-all educational program to begin with. I realize truly individualized education is a bit much to ask logistically, but you've got 30 kids and because they're all 2nd graders you assume that they're all going to be matched to math at the 2nd grade level, English at the 2nd grade level, etc. Really? When you spell it out like that, it's obvious how ridiculous it is. Some kids will excel at some subjects, some won't. Why not just place them per-subject like universities do? Actually, that was starting to be a thing when I was in late middle-school, but they only had it for math. You could take 8th or 9th grade math in 7th grade, but you were still fixed to your actual grade level in EVERY OTHER SUBJECT. Yeah, there's the naysayer argument of "b-but the 4th graders in the 4th grade math class will feel dumb if there's third graders in their class! How will they socialize?!" You could always bring back homeroom as the more age-based grouping or if you insist on the touchy-feely stuff, you could just name the classes by topic rather than grade number to minimize any stigma. Hell, you can get rid of stuff like "the remedial class" and just have them retake the course; that's got to be better in terms of ostracizing anyway.

The ironic thing is that these days we're so entrenched in the mind set of "each snowflake is so special an unique!" then we STILL stick as many of them as we can into the same room and try to teach them all the same way.

/Bring back shop while you're at it
//rant over
 
2012-10-09 06:38:30 PM

GoldSpider: Amos Quito: /If you'd like some examples, feel free to axe

You aren't saying that "ask" and "axe" don't have distinctive sounds, are you??

/It's "CAVALRY", you twits! Not "CALVERY"!


Ebonics isn't a real language?
 
2012-10-09 06:38:46 PM
The one thing that i am yet to figure out about our school system is why children are held back from learning at a level that is appropriate for them. If a child in first grade can read at a fifth grade level why are they not encouraged to? when a child is in school with a teacher all day and the teacher sees that homework involving spelling words such as cat, are and fan are well below what they already know why is there no program set up for them to advance at the level they are at? making a child wait 4 years for the curriculum to catch up with them is a waste. They have minds like sponges and when given the proper tools they can continue to advance as opposed to being held back to the level of their slowest classmate. I asked for years for teachers to give my gifted child more challenging work as opposed to the busy work they handed her. They always agreed, but never produced. she was lucky to have a stay at home mom who had the time to find work that was more to her level. I know not many children are lucky enough to have that, and it is unfair to them. They shouldn't have to sit in a classroom for that many hours a day doing work that isn't teaching them anything new.
 
2012-10-09 06:40:52 PM

BoxOfBees: From TFA:

African-Americans don't speak English, so how can they compete with people from China on a test in English?

[gawker.com image 341x358]


This is the second time today that I went to the article because I thought someone was making stupid shiat up as it was simply too stupid of a quote to be real.

I am speechless.
 
2012-10-09 06:41:01 PM

5monkeys: If a child in first grade can read at a fifth grade level why are they not encouraged to?


This has the secondary effect of seriously warping a kid's interpersonal development skills.
 
2012-10-09 06:44:32 PM

RexTalionis: 5monkeys: If a child in first grade can read at a fifth grade level why are they not encouraged to?

This has the secondary effect of seriously warping a kid's interpersonal development skills.


Kids that are that advanced tend to not relate to their peers even if you hold their pace back. I know mine didn't.
 
2012-10-09 06:47:06 PM

RexTalionis: This has the secondary effect of seriously warping a kid's interpersonal development skills.


More so than sacrificing his/her potential for the sake of the other kids' feelings?
 
2012-10-09 06:53:11 PM
Of course they're taking language out. The U.S. is too much of a pussy country to actually have "an official language" (btw, our "pussy" neighbors to the North who have more balls than any U.S. person or organization have two (2) official languages - English and French). Therefore, we cower at the hands of the illegal undocumented aliens - not once asking or attempting to create English speakers.

This country's turning turned into a piece of sh*t nation - no leaders, half the government under indictment, ALL government 100% ineffectual (noted by the downgrade by Moody during you-know-who's tenure as president - remember that? How we were downgraded explicitly because our ELECTED officials couldn't f*cking work together?).

Of course this government does not SERVE the people. Case in point - Healthcare. I dont' care who's f*cking plan you like better - Romney or Obama. We lose either way. Case in point, ask any Canadian whether they worry about health care. They'll give you that "what the f*ck are you talking about" look. Their gov't actually feels it is RESPONSIBLE for giving healthcare to each and every citizen. Here, healthcare costs are the #1 cause of bankruptcy.

Is this pissing anybody else off?

At the same time, this ineffectual, corrupt government wants to enter every area of our lives and dictate (literally) what we drink, what we eat, where we go, what we do, how we raise our kids...etc. Does this make any sense? OK you don't want to HELP us, but you DO want to micro-manage every area of our lives. Got it.

I've been especially disappointed, yes, with the current administration. But...government is weak, ineffective and corrupt no matter who is in the White House.

Domestic Terrorism? No such thing. These are revolutionaries - not always smart in how they accomplish their goals but. We were ALL revolutionaries against our country and government 230 years ago and we CELEBRATE those people! And if we had not won the Revolutionary war? It could be the case that we'd all be in Britain reading history texts about the "terrorists" that we were.

Even the Roman empire fell - no government is too powerful and big to absolutely fall. Interestingly some have written about the parallels that existed between the Roman state at it's fall and the U.S..
 
2012-10-09 06:53:25 PM

GoldSpider: RexTalionis: This has the secondary effect of seriously warping a kid's interpersonal development skills.

More so than sacrificing his/her potential for the sake of the other kids' feelings?


That's the biggest issue to me. We are more concerned about feelings, and less about aptitude.
 
2012-10-09 06:54:34 PM

RexTalionis: This has the secondary effect of seriously warping a kid's interpersonal development skills.


You mean not being given appropriate materials and challenges alongside similarly-able peers? Because yes, being kept with age peers on grade level material does warp social and emotional development. Simply want to make sure because there is an overwhelming amount of folks in education who believe subject or grade advancement would have negative influence.

5monkeys: The one thing that i am yet to figure out about our school system is why children are held back from learning at a level that is appropriate for them.


Teachers are not taught how and are not given opportunities to utilize any means of differentiation or knowledge for acceleration or different placement. Districts do not offer gifted education training and emphasize the lowest 25%. Interestingly, tomorrow I will be gathering the first round data on whether or not preservice teachers feel gifted education training is personally useful; with the way programs are patched-on and disconnected from the classroom in the majority of cases, teachers tend not to see differentiation for gifted students as part of general education.

Not to mention, this is difficult. That teachers have to do this level of differentiation is unfair, though tis also unfair the utter lack of differentiation implemented by teachers.
 
2012-10-09 07:06:31 PM

John Dewey: Many students who should be labeled as gifted aren't because of the language barrier.


Gifted programs are about sticking the kids that have the capacity and desire to actually learn stuff in an environment where they can benefit from being curious and self-motivated.

While there's nothing _wrong_ with being an ESL student, they lack the "capacity" part and the program is useless to them until they're fluent enough in English to absorb the course materials unassisted.

That said, this is stupid. There's no such thing as a "gifted" five-year-old, they all genuinely want to cooperate with the teacher and are all more or less incapable of self-directed education.
 
2012-10-09 07:06:46 PM
Oliver Heaviside

/cuz Stephen Hawking was just too easy.
 
2012-10-09 07:11:40 PM

RexTalionis: 5monkeys: If a child in first grade can read at a fifth grade level why are they not encouraged to?

This has the secondary effect of seriously warping a kid's interpersonal development skills.


I was reading off the scale when I was in kindergarten. Seriously, they had no idea what "reading group" to put me in, because the classroom had no books advanced enough for me. There was no way to "hold me back" because I just read ahead in the reading books anyway.

I'm not sure that bored smart kids are any better off than kids being encouraged to develop their smartness.
 
2012-10-09 07:20:32 PM

ProfessorOhki: : I'd imagine it's all but impossible to create a one-size-fits-all educational program to begin with.


It's what they have in Finland and it's the highest scoring education system in Europe. Then there's the Czech Republic, which like Finland has no gifted or honors classes, no tracking, none of it.
 
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