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(Some Guy)   Any news story about New York kindergartens is guaranteed to be pure comedy gold. The New NYC Gifted Program test emphasizes "abstract spatial thinking and largely eliminates language"   (isteve.blogspot.com) divider line 201
    More: Strange, New York City, New York, New York kindergartens, computational complexity theory, racial equality, normal schools, kindergartens, packet switches  
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6339 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Oct 2012 at 4:22 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-09 02:39:23 PM
why is that worthy of ridicule? Assuming that labeling students as gifted is worthwhile (a dubious goal in my mind), I think this is a step in the right direction. Many students who should be labeled as gifted aren't because of the language barrier.
 
2012-10-09 02:42:21 PM
In other words, the skills that make Peyton Manning so great.
 
2012-10-09 02:58:24 PM
I'm SOOOO happy my son goes to a private school. I never have to worry about anything public school ever again.. it's liberating. 47 kids in his 6th grade.. 12 kids per class.. compared to the MS up the road where there are 40 kids per class. fark all that nonsense. Best investment I've ever made and it may be financially painful but damn it's worth it.
 
2012-10-09 03:01:30 PM
The gifted programs are all bunk.
 
2012-10-09 03:02:57 PM

John Dewey: why is that worthy of ridicule? Assuming that labeling students as gifted is worthwhile (a dubious goal in my mind), I think this is a step in the right direction. Many students who should be labeled as gifted aren't because of the language barrier.



Kindergartners?  Gifted?  No.  They're 5 freaking years old.
 
2012-10-09 03:23:42 PM

downstairs:


Kindergartners?  Gifted?  No.  They're 5 freaking years old.


Hence my use of the word "dubious"
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-10-09 03:35:18 PM

RexTalionis: The gifted programs are all bunk.


Well, it must seem that way to the slow ones.
 
2012-10-09 03:52:35 PM

downstairs: John Dewey: why is that worthy of ridicule? Assuming that labeling students as gifted is worthwhile (a dubious goal in my mind), I think this is a step in the right direction. Many students who should be labeled as gifted aren't because of the language barrier.


Kindergartners?  Gifted?  No.  They're 5 freaking years old.


There are savants at that age, but they are so few that you don't develop a program around them. If you did, you wouldn't call it a "gifted" program.
 
2012-10-09 03:54:25 PM

vpb: RexTalionis: The gifted programs are all bunk.

Well, it must seem that way to the slow ones.


Witty. Are you going to regale us with tales of how much smarter you are than me as well?
 
2012-10-09 04:22:41 PM

Babwa Wawa: There are savants at that age, but they are so few that you don't develop a program around them. If you did, you wouldn't call it a "gifted" program.


It's called TAG and it's really just a way to keep kids from being extremely bored by the dumbed down content created for the lowest common denominator (90 IQ). My son was in it for the 5 years I kept him in public school. They take one day of the week and learn more advanced concepts. It is actually useful because they teach the same things that a child would learn in a private school but its free. By 6th grade however the TAG program get thinned out dramatically based on several criteria and by 8th grade it's thinned out even more. To put it in perspective 1-5th grade about 15% get into TAG and by 8th grade it's close to 3%.

Or you can just send your kid to a private school where they'll learn everything taught in TAG and more.. Mine goes to a college prep school where they teach college prep from 6th to 12th grade. The school has had a 100% college attendance rate since they started graduating kids in 2007 with a 98% "first pick" rate. If you want your kid to be successful then public school is a crap shoot.. you might want to have 3 or 4 kids so one can be successful. If you want your child to have success then pluck them out of public schools after 5th grade and buckle down for the expense of private which is $10,000 to $20,000 a year depending on the school. It is a pure cash outlay.. can't deduct it, get no credits for it, etc etc.
 
2012-10-09 04:22:55 PM
Fecal painting is the true expression of the soul.
 
2012-10-09 04:25:52 PM
Gifted tests are supposed to be administered by a school psychologist. How the hell are kids studying for them in the first place? these aren't the SATs.
 
2012-10-09 04:27:05 PM

xynix: I'm SOOOO happy my son goes to a private school. I never have to worry about anything public school ever again.. it's liberating. 47 kids in his 6th grade.. 12 kids per class.. compared to the MS up the road where there are 40 kids per class. fark all that nonsense. Best investment I've ever made and it may be financially painful but damn it's worth it.


careful up there, don't want to fall off your high horse.
 
2012-10-09 04:27:39 PM

John Dewey: why is that worthy of ridicule? Assuming that labeling students as gifted is worthwhile (a dubious goal in my mind), I think this is a step in the right direction. Many students who should be labeled as gifted aren't because of the language barrier.


Gifted doesn't mean anything if the people and materials you interact with on a daily basis make no sense to you and vice-versa.

I'd like to think I'm at least somewhat intelligent and if you drop me in China, I'm screwed.
 
2012-10-09 04:33:37 PM
When we talk about removing language, are we talking about helping kids regardless of their native language or about teaching bright kids to do Newton's Calculus, but they can't string a coherent sentence together?
 
2012-10-09 04:33:40 PM
Abstract spatial thinking?

eartfair.com
 
2012-10-09 04:36:08 PM
the NNAT, will count for two-thirds of a student's score, said city officials, who signed a three-year, $5.5 million contract with the testing company

The Otis-Lennon School Ability Test, or OLSAT, which increasing numbers of children had prepared for intensely, will drop to a third of the total from 75%.


Why don't we just have a hundred different tests!? Each worth 1% of their score! Each with a $5m contract! Woooooo, education.
 
2012-10-09 04:36:38 PM

cgraves67: When we talk about removing language, are we talking about helping kids regardless of their native language or about teaching bright kids to do Newton's Calculus, but they can't string a coherent sentence together?


Can't judge. All languages are equal and it's bigoted to expect people to adapt to the decrepit American culture by learning how to use English... and that goes for anyone who comes to this country.
 
2012-10-09 04:37:04 PM

vpb: RexTalionis: The gifted programs are all bunk.

Well, it must seem that way to the slow ones.


I was in a "gifted" program when I was much younger. Even then, I thought "gifted" meant "special". And "special" meant "retarded".
 
2012-10-09 04:38:12 PM
www.thecityreview.com

Has big issues with spatial thinking, not so much with language
 
2012-10-09 04:38:35 PM
So they learned from Sarah Palin?
 
2012-10-09 04:39:56 PM

cgraves67: When we talk about removing language, are we talking about helping kids regardless of their native language or about teaching bright kids to do Newton's Calculus, but they can't string a coherent sentence together?


I think they're talking about text-speak

/got nuthin'
 
2012-10-09 04:40:20 PM

xynix: Or you can just send your kid to a private school where they'll learn everything taught in TAG and more.. Mine goes to a college prep school where they teach college prep from 6th to 12th grade. The school has had a 100% college attendance rate since they started graduating kids in 2007 with a 98% "first pick" rate. If you want your kid to be successful then public school is a crap shoot.. you might want to have 3 or 4 kids so one can be successful. If you want your child to have success then pluck them out of public schools after 5th grade and buckle down for the expense of private which is $10,000 to $20,000 a year depending on the school. It is a pure cash outlay.. can't deduct it, get no credits for it, etc etc.


Or you can try to get them into one of many specialized high schools around the city, all of which are just as likely to get them into a decent college as a private school, at a much lower cost.

Your kid's school teaches college prep for 6 years? I'm imagining 6 years of SAT practice exams -- tell me it's not like that.
 
2012-10-09 04:41:16 PM

xynix: If you want your kid to be successful then public school is a crap shoot.. you might want to have 3 or 4 kids so one can be successful.


*chortle*
 
2012-10-09 04:41:38 PM
You can either use science to design a test that finds the most gifted students or you can use politics to design a test that gives you the PC demographic ratio your personal belief system requires. But these will not be the same test. Nor will the results be the same. Some people have a hard time coming to terms with this, and that causes no end of cognitive dissonance, and in attempting to force reality to conform to their faith a lot of people have done a lot of very stupid things that have more or less destroyed public education in this country.
 
2012-10-09 04:44:39 PM
Done in 25, all testing stories basically come down to administrators trying to have their eat their cake and eat it, too.
 
2012-10-09 04:45:10 PM
http://">Link

I hab ta axe a quebshun, here.
Because you think I ain't dun gud in skool, so you musta farked up, rat?
 
2012-10-09 04:46:21 PM
From TFA:

African-Americans don't speak English, so how can they compete with people from China on a test in English?

gawker.com
 
2012-10-09 04:46:48 PM
Any news story about New York kindergartens is guaranteed to be pure comedy gold.

This is the exception? Does have to be gifted get the headline?
 
2012-10-09 04:46:49 PM
"You have to believe that what they're doing is a failure or you have to believe that African-American and Latino kids are less gifted," Mr. Borland said. "One of those has to be true."


Well, I debinly farked up the hatemail part ob de tes'
Now ah gots ta repostasize it.
 
2012-10-09 04:47:04 PM
Cognitive ability is not evenly distributed in the human population. And it can be measured. That is all.
 
2012-10-09 04:49:20 PM

RexTalionis: The gifted programs are all bunk.


This is a significant claim to make considering the sheer enormity of diversity between gifted programs. Plenty of programs within schools or across districts which are created for the purposes of fulfilling mandated gifted services are "bunk", but those are poorly devised based on misconceptions of giftedness.

downstairs: Kindergartners?  Gifted?  No.  They're 5 freaking years old.


Earlier interventions leads to better outcomes. Giftedness exists across all ages, and the only concerns with testing of the youngest children is the appropriateness of the testing environment and procedures for young children.

xynix: t's called TAG


What you are describing is only an enrichment pull-out program. Schools which utilize such a program to attempt to service the needs of all gifted and talented students is doing a disservice to all of them and attempting to meet only the minimum requirements set by a district or state.

cgraves67: When we talk about removing language, are we talking about helping kids regardless of their native language or about teaching bright kids to do Newton's Calculus, but they can't string a coherent sentence together?


Removing biases against non-native speakers and low-income children. However, the idea of a using a single test to identify is still inappropriate because some children are extremely verbal and linguistic.

ProfessorOhki: Why don't we just have a hundred different tests!?


WISC, Naglieri, portfolio, performance, and behavior checklist would be enough to cover a broad range of giftedness.
 
2012-10-09 04:49:41 PM

MoronLessOff: I was in a "gifted" program when I was much younger. Even then, I thought "gifted" meant "special". And "special" meant "retarded".


When I was in Kindergarten I had an aide with me for a long time. I recently asked my mom about this and she said they thought due to me being gray and deprived of oxygen at birth that I might be brain damaged. That's a hell of a thing to find out as an adult.

/Slightly hilarious honestly.
 
2012-10-09 04:49:46 PM
So basically NY is trying to make it to where black kids can pass the "Gifted" test instead of only acing the "special" test. It is good that we muddle down excellence in exchange for "equality"

When everyone is special, and no one is a dumb shiat, we all win!

Except for society, who generally loses, because the dumb shiats are not capable of producing like the "special" kids and end up being dumb shiats anyway despite being handed everything in school.
 
2012-10-09 04:54:10 PM

atomicmask: So basically NY is trying to make it to where black kids can pass the "Gifted" test


There is no single gifted test. To begin, entrance to gifted programs should not simply be test based. Further, the Naglieri has been designed to be non-verbal which is a boon to non-native or low-income children. While there are some issues, when used alongside another assessment or with performance or portfolio data, this is a useful measure.
 
2012-10-09 04:54:31 PM
uh-oh ... am I banned all of the sudden? Let's find out.
 
2012-10-09 04:54:35 PM
Don't forget to synergize your paradigm.
 
2012-10-09 04:57:03 PM

Vangor: RexTalionis: The gifted programs are all bunk.

This is a significant claim to make considering the sheer enormity of diversity between gifted programs. Plenty of programs within schools or across districts which are created for the purposes of fulfilling mandated gifted services are "bunk", but those are poorly devised based on misconceptions of giftedness.


Fine. The majority of gifted programs are bunk.

Happier?
 
2012-10-09 04:58:37 PM

atomicmask: So basically NY is trying to make it to where black kids can pass the "Gifted" test instead of only acing the "special" test. It is good that we muddle down excellence in exchange for "equality"

When everyone is special, and no one is a dumb shiat, we all win!

Except for society, who generally loses, because the dumb shiats are not capable of producing like the "special" kids and end up being dumb shiats anyway despite being handed everything in school.


Only took 34 posts to get the truth.
 
2012-10-09 04:59:45 PM
I swear - NYC pre-schools and kindergartens are like the freaking gold rush. Every available schemer entrepreneur is setting up a "school" and charging obscene tuition. The free market at its finest.
 
2012-10-09 04:59:55 PM
"You have to believe that what they're doing is a failure or you have to believe that African-American and Latino kids are less gifted," Mr. Borland said. "One of those has to be true."

Pretty sure it's both, dude.
 
2012-10-09 05:00:13 PM
I have a gifted kindergartner who is very advanced in language and relatively terrible at abstract spatial thinking. AND he's white. I don't live in NYC, but clearly he wouldn't get in to their program.

But since I'M also white (see the connection?), I'll just put him in private school. He'll be happier there with the other white kids, anyway.

Maybe he'll make the basketball team.
 
2012-10-09 05:00:53 PM
What's wrong with spatula thinking?
imaguitarist.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-10-09 05:01:31 PM
This kind of tests would have helped me a lot in my youth. I'm an aspie, and didn't find out about Asperger's until my late 40's. When I was a kid I was very bright in some aspects, but not languages. Didn't start talking until much later than most. Same with writing. And I flunked both 4th & 7th grade because I couldn't get a grasp of French (even though my mother tongue is Portuguese). And when I moved to the US in back in 1983, it took me about a decade to get comfortable with the language, yet I still speak it with a very thick Brazilian accent to this day.

So make fun of this program all you want. Truth is it is a great idea.
 
2012-10-09 05:01:42 PM

downstairs: John Dewey: why is that worthy of ridicule? Assuming that labeling students as gifted is worthwhile (a dubious goal in my mind), I think this is a step in the right direction. Many students who should be labeled as gifted aren't because of the language barrier.


Kindergartners?  Gifted?  No.  They're 5 freaking years old.



Don't tell that to their parents. They'll tear you apart.
 
2012-10-09 05:01:43 PM

RexTalionis: Fine. The majority of gifted programs are bunk.

Happier?


I would say this is a result of our low prioritization and hostility towards gifted programs rather than a failure of programs for gifted students conceptually, but sure, I am happier.
 
2012-10-09 05:02:05 PM
I think the only "Gifted" program at my school was allowing students to test into 0 hour Algebra I at the local high school in eighth grade. Glad I made that decision to do it, but 7:05 class seemed like a really bad idea during the year. Best part about it was "independent study" when the rest of the class did normal math. I taught myself Python from the official tutorial and changed the course of my life.
 
2012-10-09 05:02:34 PM

xynix: Babwa Wawa: There are savants at that age, but they are so few that you don't develop a program around them. If you did, you wouldn't call it a "gifted" program.

It's called TAG and it's really just a way to keep kids from being extremely bored by the dumbed down content created for the lowest common denominator (90 IQ). My son was in it for the 5 years I kept him in public school. They take one day of the week and learn more advanced concepts. It is actually useful because they teach the same things that a child would learn in a private school but its free. By 6th grade however the TAG program get thinned out dramatically based on several criteria and by 8th grade it's thinned out even more. To put it in perspective 1-5th grade about 15% get into TAG and by 8th grade it's close to 3%.

Or you can just send your kid to a private school where they'll learn everything taught in TAG and more.. Mine goes to a college prep school where they teach college prep from 6th to 12th grade. The school has had a 100% college attendance rate since they started graduating kids in 2007 with a 98% "first pick" rate. If you want your kid to be successful then public school is a crap shoot.. you might want to have 3 or 4 kids so one can be successful. If you want your child to have success then pluck them out of public schools after 5th grade and buckle down for the expense of private which is $10,000 to $20,000 a year depending on the school. It is a pure cash outlay.. can't deduct it, get no credits for it, etc etc.


Very much this. I was in the Gifted program at my school (joined in Kindergarten, was actually still in Gifted classes through high school). In elementary school, the gifted classes were one day a week. In 5th grade, we did things like build cars to compete in Odyssey of the Mind (in my year, only one of the cars could be from a kit and they all had to have different sources of power and transfer a balloon from one to the other over an obstacle course, 5 cars total). Middle school and high school, the gifted classes were basically one level above the advanced classes and were individual to subject matter (most kids did not do the 4 major subjects of science/math/english/social studies all in the gifted program), but also required that teachers and school officials approved that the student was qualified to be in that class. Those who were denied (or themselves decided not to do it), were generally put into the advanced classes anyways.

My brother (who due to undiagnosed hearing issues related to allergies was never very strong in languages) should have been put in the program himself, boredom meant that he struggled through school.
 
2012-10-09 05:04:05 PM
FTFA: Several studies show the test produces significant scoring gaps between wealthier white and Asian children and their poor, minority counterparts.

We Europeans can get a bit confused by racial terminology and politics in the US (Spanish-speaking is a race?). Could someone explain to me why Asians don't count as a minority?
 
2012-10-09 05:04:28 PM

BoxOfBees: From TFA: African-Americans don't speak English, so how can they compete with people from China on a test in English?
[gawker.com image 341x358]


I think the author was employing the literary device called irony at this point. Either way, this article including the quoted material is still gold.

FTA: Several studies show the test produces significant scoring gaps between wealthier white and Asian children and their poor, minority counterparts.
When did Asians stop being part of the minority? And what about poor white kids?

FTA: On the NNAT, often students "don't understand what they're supposed to do,"
If they can't figure out what they're supposed to do, then perhaps they're not that smart gifted.

The NNAT is significantly harder than the tests city has previously used, with some questions confusing even for adults
Wow! Color me surprised! You mean there are some adults that not smarter than some other adults? The world needs ditch diggers and delivery truck drivers.

/full disclosure: I was in gifted education from 3rd through 7th grade.
// I was in the special reading group in 1st grade.
 
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