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(The Atlantic Cities)   American cities' equality ratings puts them on par with countries like Swaziland and El Salvador   (theatlanticcities.com) divider line 50
    More: Cool, Swaziland, El Salvador, Americans, american cities, United States, CIA World Factbook, American Community Survey, Joseph Stiglitz  
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7808 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Oct 2012 at 2:57 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-10-09 04:44:40 PM
7 votes:

jwilson07: As the liberal communist lying spin machine goes into high gear again. Show me the fences, the laws, the guns and clubs that stop people from being rich and successful. Yes, thought so, the only thing stopping them from being rich is THEMSELVES. Stop blaming the US, there are easily as many white failures as there are any other color or culture. Lets put the blame where it belongs, on those too lazy and useless to try hard work as a road to riches.


Since you honestly believe that hard work is the only difference between the rich and the poor, I'm gonna mark you down as "supports 100% estate tax upon all US citizens."

Cuz, you know, if hard work is the only thing that separates the rich from the poor, I think we can agree that it is fair that everyone starts at the same starting line with no artificial advantages passed down fem your parents. Second, inherited wealth doesn't matter anyway, according to you, only hard work does, so the government taking every individual's accumulated wealth upon his or her death will have no impact on the process of economic mobility in the United States.

Wouldn't you agree?
2012-10-09 03:37:07 PM
6 votes:

SandMann: "The United States is actually more dependent on rich people to pay taxes than even many of the more socialized economies of Europe. According to the Tax Foundation, the United States gets 45 percent of its total taxes from the top 10 percent of tax filers, whereas the international average in industrialized nations is 32 percent. America's rich carry a larger share of the tax burden than do the rich in Belgium (25 percent), Germany (31 percent), France (28 percent), and even Sweden (27 percent)."


Which means nothing without evaluating how much wealth the rich actually possess as a fraction of the total wealth of the various countries. If I pay 1% in taxes on $1,000,000 of income, I'm paying more in taxes than I am if I pay 50% of my $1,000 of income. The rich paying more in taxes despite having lower tax rates is probably actually a symptom of wealth inequality rather than evidence of anything to the contrary.
2012-10-09 03:13:11 PM
6 votes:
The idea is that high Gini coefficients lead to political instability and revolution. Basically, they're a measure that indicates your country is being looted by an elite.
2012-10-09 03:46:55 PM
3 votes:

SandMann: Inequality in America:

U.S. top earners pay larger share of taxes than any other industrialized nation 

"The United States is actually more dependent on rich people to pay taxes than even many of the more socialized economies of Europe. According to the Tax Foundation, the United States gets 45 percent of its total taxes from the top 10 percent of tax filers, whereas the international average in industrialized nations is 32 percent. America's rich carry a larger share of the tax burden than do the rich in Belgium (25 percent), Germany (31 percent), France (28 percent), and even Sweden (27 percent)."


Wow, what an amazing set of facts.

The article you wrote implies that this says that the rich pay far too much in income as taxes.

Yet, these facts are actually another indicator of systemic inequality, where the top 10% of tax filers make so much far and above than the average American, that countries with higher tax rates than us have their wealthy paying a lower share of the tax burden.

Its funny that the article you link defeats itself with its own statistics.
2012-10-09 01:45:13 PM
3 votes:
What a ridiculous statistic. The goal is not equality. If that were the case, a nation that was entirely dirt poor would be the winner.

What you're looking for is standard of living. For instance, in Swaziland, 70% of the population lives below the poverty line, in the Dominican Republic 34%, in El Salvador 37%, Madagascar 50%, Phillipines 27%, Nigeria 70%. Jamaica and Malaysia are actually pretty reasonable at 4%(!) and 17%. In the U.S. that number is 15%. (CIA World Factbook). The U.S. could do better, but comparing us to countries like Denmark and Sweden is unfair
2012-10-09 11:08:45 AM
3 votes:
Yeah but if we can get unemployment up to 20% we can actually bust those unions and then bring all those manufacturing jobs back here from China and Thailand and the Philippines.
2012-10-09 06:56:57 PM
2 votes:

mysticcat: What a ridiculous statistic. The goal is not equality. If that were the case, a nation that was entirely dirt poor would be the winner.

What you're looking for is standard of living. For instance, in Swaziland, 70% of the population lives below the poverty line, in the Dominican Republic 34%, in El Salvador 37%, Madagascar 50%, Phillipines 27%, Nigeria 70%. Jamaica and Malaysia are actually pretty reasonable at 4%(!) and 17%. In the U.S. that number is 15%. (CIA World Factbook). The U.S. could do better, but comparing us to countries like Denmark and Sweden is unfair


Having been to both Jamaica and Malaysia (lived there for a while actually)... I can say this...

Shut up about shiatholes you obviously haven't visited.

I was offered a very high level position in Shell if only I would move permanently to Malaysia. -Three levels up in management over 120 people. I looked around, and said, "see ya" without a job in hand.

Malaysia (which you obviously aren't familar with) still uses slave labor and still kills slaves that try to escape. They just have them sign a contract first (that they can't get out of), and then take away their passport.

Not to say there aren't good people in Malaysia... There are... quite a few actually. But the country is a shiathole and if you think having an "average" worker going home to a thatch roof and dirt floors is acceptable (in IT), then you need your head examined.
2012-10-09 04:43:31 PM
2 votes:

imashark: SandMann: Inequality in America:

U.S. top earners pay larger share of taxes than any other industrialized nation 

"The United States is actually more dependent on rich people to pay taxes than even many of the more socialized economies of Europe. According to the Tax Foundation, the United States gets 45 percent of its total taxes from the top 10 percent of tax filers, whereas the international average in industrialized nations is 32 percent. America's rich carry a larger share of the tax burden than do the rich in Belgium (25 percent), Germany (31 percent), France (28 percent), and even Sweden (27 percent)."

Wow, what an amazing set of facts.

The article you wrote implies that this says that the rich pay far too much in income as taxes.

Yet, these facts are actually another indicator of systemic inequality, where the top 10% of tax filers make so much far and above than the average American, that countries with higher tax rates than us have their wealthy paying a lower share of the tax burden.

Its funny that the article you link defeats itself with its own statistics.


===========

In absolute numbers, America's wealthy pay more in taxes, it's true. In terms of percentages the working class and poor pay much more. The percentage of US federal tax revenues that come from payroll taxes is higher now than at any time in US history. Since the wealthy structure most of their income as capital gains, they pay a lower rate of income tax and a very tiny percentage in payroll taxes, i.e. FICA, medicare, workers comp etc. Factor in such things as sales taxes and property taxes and the working poor are hammered with taxes as a percentage of their total income.

/There is a reason Romney refuses to release his tax returns
2012-10-09 04:08:39 PM
2 votes:
In other news: Areas of America where dad doesn't stick around and help raise junior (whatever his skin color may be) have similar rates of inequality to places in the rest of the world where dad doesn't stick around and help raise junior.
2012-10-09 03:57:25 PM
2 votes:

SandMann: So you would rather have the "rich" knocked down a peg or two and everyone pay more taxes than the "rich" being rich and the poor paying less in taxes?


If you're poor, why would you give a fig about taxes? The government can't take money you don't have. It's all about services. If someone could figure out how to provide all the services government supplies for free I'd be perfectly happy with such a system. However, things don't work that way and the most reasonable way to pay for government is everyone who can afford to chips in to pay for civilization. It's when the rich don't chip in is when government is bound to come up short and not everyone will even be given the basics they need to survive much less thrive and contribute.
2012-10-09 03:56:37 PM
2 votes:

arentol: Scandanvia is three countries, and when it comes to quality of life none of them beat the US...


That's some fine propaganda you have there. Too bad it is patently false. All three Scandinavian countries have a higher quality of life than the U.S. We really aren't number one in much of anything except the size of our economy and the strength of our military.
2012-10-09 03:51:30 PM
2 votes:

Pray 4 Mojo: Somebody should write a book about what happens when we strive for equality as a goal.

Somebody should write a song about it too.


How about just a graph?
gccds.org
2012-10-09 03:48:35 PM
2 votes:

SandMann: Inequality in America:

U.S. top earners pay larger share of taxes than any other industrialized nation 

"The United States is actually more dependent on rich people to pay taxes than even many of the more socialized economies of Europe. According to the Tax Foundation, the United States gets 45 percent of its total taxes from the top 10 percent of tax filers, whereas the international average in industrialized nations is 32 percent. America's rich carry a larger share of the tax burden than do the rich in Belgium (25 percent), Germany (31 percent), France (28 percent), and even Sweden (27 percent)."


But unlike those other countries, the top 10% do not control over 50% of all the money. They pay a large portion, but in comparison to the percentage of the wealth they control, they pay significantly less.
2012-10-09 03:40:03 PM
2 votes:

arentol: CmndrFish: mysticcat: What a ridiculous statistic. The goal is not equality. If that were the case, a nation that was entirely dirt poor would be the winner.

What you're looking for is standard of living. For instance, in Swaziland, 70% of the population lives below the poverty line, in the Dominican Republic 34%, in El Salvador 37%, Madagascar 50%, Phillipines 27%, Nigeria 70%. Jamaica and Malaysia are actually pretty reasonable at 4%(!) and 17%. In the U.S. that number is 15%. (CIA World Factbook). The U.S. could do better, but comparing us to countries like Denmark and Sweden is unfair

Why should we not compare ourselves to other developed nations of the world? The Scandinavian model results in less poor people while still retaining high overall wealth. Why would we not want that?

Scandanvia is three countries, and when it comes to quality of life none of them beat the US...

http://internationalliving.com/2010/02/quality-of-life-2010/

And look,they don't beat the US at human development either:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_I n dex

Economic Freedom? Nope, don't win there either...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom

And if you look closely you will realize a lot of the "advantage" that Scandanavia has over the US is due mostly to taxes and forced wealth redistribution. We could do the same thing, and probably should to a degree with some minor changes to our tax system, but basically there is no inherent superiority being displayed here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality

So what is your point exactly?


i think the point of your post is to show that you dont know what you're talking about. like, at all.
2012-10-09 03:13:13 PM
2 votes:
ricketyclick.com
2012-10-09 03:08:05 PM
2 votes:

mysticcat: The U.S. could do better, but comparing us to countries like Denmark and Sweden is unfair


So much for American Exceptionalism.
2012-10-09 03:06:27 PM
2 votes:

Rogue Surf: But...but...trickle down!!!


Yes, this is truly trickle down economics inaction
2012-10-09 03:06:19 PM
2 votes:
A country spends decades importing people from 3rd world countries and then it is surprised it looks like a 3rd world country. Damn out does that work?
2012-10-09 02:49:32 PM
2 votes:

coco ebert: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: Ah. I see Richard Florida has found something new to latch onto. He didn't seem to give a damn about poverty back when he was shilling his "Creative Class" thesis, like some sort of carnival huckster.

Neither did Jeffrey Sachs when he was neoliberalizing Eastern Europe and Latin America to the point of almost starving the citizenry. Now all of a sudden he's all about "The End of Poverty". GTFO.


It's almost as if certain economists are trying to peddle books trumpeting the newest fad to the gullible masses.
2012-10-09 01:15:13 PM
2 votes:

vpb: So wealthy people live in cities? What point is he trying to make?


That the income disparity in the US in the cities is quite high and as a nation overall it's not much better.
2012-10-10 08:02:37 AM
1 votes:
Why should we pretend that people are equal? Provide them an equal opportunity and call it a day. There are many people out there who are smarter and harder working than I am. If they attain more success, it's nobody's fault but my own.
2012-10-09 09:52:28 PM
1 votes:

jwilson07: As the liberal communist lying spin machine goes into high gear again. Show me the fences, the laws, the guns and clubs that stop people from being rich and successful. Yes, thought so, the only thing stopping them from being rich is THEMSELVES. Stop blaming the US, there are easily as many white failures as there are any other color or culture. Lets put the blame where it belongs, on those too lazy and useless to try hard work as a road to riches.


Spoken like someone who's never had a major illness, injury, or surgery prevent them from doing more than shuffling around the house to the bathroom and kitchen at regular intervals. Whether that condition is temporary or permanent, it happens to a lot of people, but clearly you'd rather they just die off quickly so you can swoop in and sell their stuff, because Capitalism, right?
2012-10-09 09:33:11 PM
1 votes:
You know the writer of this particular article really did a disservice by not indicating why income inequality should matter to everyone.

There were a couple different reasons, but the one I remember is this: Wealthy people have significantly shorter lives in places where there is high income inequality. I think it had something to do with being lonely and depressed all alone on your private golf course who you can't invite anyone too because they'll steal your solid gold tees.

Oh and BTW, rich people all live off government handouts; it's how you get rich. The last honest rich guy was Bill Gates and even he was eventually pressured in to hiring armies of lobbyists to get him the sweet sweet quid pro quo.
2012-10-09 08:47:36 PM
1 votes:

This text is now purple: CmndrFish: The Scandinavian model results in less poor people while still retaining high overall wealth. Why would we not want that?

We would. And if we had a population that was 95% scandinavian, it would probably work.


I think it would work regardless. It's that when you have a population that's as ethnically divided as much as ours is, people tend to be less likely to spring for more socialistic policies, and that's why we have two major parties that both are to the right of many of the major parties of say, Europe.
2012-10-09 07:45:38 PM
1 votes:

kg2095: Vectron: A country spends decades importing people from 3rd world countries and then it is surprised it looks like a 3rd world country. Damn out does that work?

Most countries in Europe have many immigrants from 3rd world countries as well. As do Australia and Canada. All of which have a more equal distribution of wealth than the US, and these days, many of those countries have a higher living standard than the US as well.

The decline in US living standards started somewhere in the 70s - that is when Sweden overtook the US in per capita GNP. Something went wrong back then and no one seems to want to find out what it is.


Easy. Reagan and supply-side economics policies.
2012-10-09 06:54:41 PM
1 votes:

CmndrFish: The Scandinavian model results in less poor people while still retaining high overall wealth. Why would we not want that?


We would. And if we had a population that was 95% scandinavian, it would probably work.
2012-10-09 05:52:36 PM
1 votes:

Headso: The tards cheering for this level of income inequality don't understand that the consumer is what drives the economy. Specifically the middle class and poor consumer. These tards think magic jerb creator dust gives them a job and not the consumers that buy whatever product the company stupid enough to hire the aforementioned tards is selling.


I don't see anybody "cheering" for it. It's just that we don't care. Big difference.

Also curious... the company you own... what do you sell?
2012-10-09 04:30:30 PM
1 votes:

Gwyrddu: It's when the rich don't chip in is when government is bound to come up short and not everyone will even be given the basics they need to survive


www.funnyqanda.com
2012-10-09 04:30:21 PM
1 votes:

Magnanimous_J: When the economy is bad, we freak out about income inequality in America.
When the economy is Ok, we freak out about income inequality in the world.
When the economy is great, we freak out about using up all the world's resources at an unsustainable rate.

No matter what happens, there is always a looming crisis threatening to kill us all.


You sound like you don't have enough guilt to be American.
2012-10-09 04:23:24 PM
1 votes:
Driving in stamford is like driving through an Audi dealership parking lot everyday.
2012-10-09 04:22:26 PM
1 votes:
"Detroit (.457) matches up with the Philippines (.458)."

I'm sure the Philippines are quite offended to be compared to or equated with Detroit in any way.
2012-10-09 04:17:32 PM
1 votes:

Gwyrddu: I'm saying if the wealthy stopped paying taxes, there would be no way to balance the budget and provide most of the services expected to maintain a first world country,


FTFM
2012-10-09 04:15:38 PM
1 votes:

SandMann: Gwyrddu: It's when the rich don't chip in is when government is bound to come up short and not everyone will even be given the basics they need to survive much less thrive and contribute.

That statement is incorrect. You could take every dime the "rich" make and it would still fall far short of paying for what the politicians have saddle on the backs of America's young.


All such numbers I've seen assume that only some subset of the wealthy pay taxes and nobody else does. That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm saying if the wealthy stopped paying taxes, there would be no way to balance provide most of the services expected to maintain a first world country, regardless of what everyone else paid into the system. I'm saying that everyone who isn't poor needs to pay taxes, especially the wealthy (corporations as well, half of them don't pay taxes either). This is aside from issues of spending cuts. There are things that need to be cut, such as a bloated military budget, and on the state level we put too many people in prison. But spending cuts alone are not enough to get us to a balanced budget, which is why Republicans are always reticent on what they'll cut because they know they'll alienate they'll voting block if they did so.
2012-10-09 04:05:29 PM
1 votes:

Gwyrddu: It's when the rich don't chip in is when government is bound to come up short and not everyone will even be given the basics they need to survive much less thrive and contribute.


That statement is incorrect. You could take every dime the "rich" make and it would still fall far short of paying for what the politicians have saddle on the backs of America's young.
2012-10-09 04:00:14 PM
1 votes:
frankandjan.com
2012-10-09 03:52:15 PM
1 votes:

Vectron: Nightsweat: Vectron: A country spends decades importing people from 3rd world countries and then it is surprised it looks like a 3rd world country. Damn out how does that work?

Yeah, letting those Irish in was a huge mistake. ANd don't get me started on the Italians.


Those aren't 3rd world countries. I'm talking about poor people from Central America. We're importing poverty.


I think you need to go back and look at Ireland and Italy when the immigrants came over.
2012-10-09 03:47:16 PM
1 votes:

Gwyrddu: Father_Jack: Scandanvia is three countries, and when it comes to quality of life none of them beat the US...

Then why is Denmark considered the happiest country on Earth?


Happy pills.
2012-10-09 03:43:21 PM
1 votes:

Father_Jack: Scandanvia is three countries, and when it comes to quality of life none of them beat the US...


Then why is Denmark considered the happiest country on Earth?
2012-10-09 03:41:36 PM
1 votes:

Vectron: Nightsweat: Vectron: A country spends decades importing people from 3rd world countries and then it is surprised it looks like a 3rd world country. Damn out how does that work?

Yeah, letting those Irish in was a huge mistake. ANd don't get me started on the Italians.


Those aren't 3rd world countries. I'm talking about poor people from Central America. We're importing poverty.



Yes, but we're also exporting wealth, so it all evens out.

Our next goal should be to make everyone the same color.
2012-10-09 03:32:07 PM
1 votes:

CmndrFish: mysticcat: What a ridiculous statistic. The goal is not equality. If that were the case, a nation that was entirely dirt poor would be the winner.

What you're looking for is standard of living. For instance, in Swaziland, 70% of the population lives below the poverty line, in the Dominican Republic 34%, in El Salvador 37%, Madagascar 50%, Phillipines 27%, Nigeria 70%. Jamaica and Malaysia are actually pretty reasonable at 4%(!) and 17%. In the U.S. that number is 15%. (CIA World Factbook). The U.S. could do better, but comparing us to countries like Denmark and Sweden is unfair

Why should we not compare ourselves to other developed nations of the world? The Scandinavian model results in less poor people while still retaining high overall wealth. Why would we not want that?


Scandanvia is three countries, and when it comes to quality of life none of them beat the US...

http://internationalliving.com/2010/02/quality-of-life-2010/

And look,they don't beat the US at human development either:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_I n dex

Economic Freedom? Nope, don't win there either...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom

And if you look closely you will realize a lot of the "advantage" that Scandanavia has over the US is due mostly to taxes and forced wealth redistribution. We could do the same thing, and probably should to a degree with some minor changes to our tax system, but basically there is no inherent superiority being displayed here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality

So what is your point exactly?
2012-10-09 03:32:02 PM
1 votes:
Inequality in America:

U.S. top earners pay larger share of taxes than any other industrialized nation 

"The United States is actually more dependent on rich people to pay taxes than even many of the more socialized economies of Europe. According to the Tax Foundation, the United States gets 45 percent of its total taxes from the top 10 percent of tax filers, whereas the international average in industrialized nations is 32 percent. America's rich carry a larger share of the tax burden than do the rich in Belgium (25 percent), Germany (31 percent), France (28 percent), and even Sweden (27 percent)."
2012-10-09 03:29:02 PM
1 votes:

big pig peaches: What was the point of the article? That things are better when everyone is poor.

/The US still has the fattest poor people in the world.


So let's end the food stamp program? Also, fat is not healthy or a sign people are eating well, it is just a sign that you are consuming empty calories with few nutrients, like sugar or high fructose corn syrup.

Also, not everyone in poor countries are poor, there is almost a group of highly wealthy individuals in poor countries, that why they have a high Gini index. What you can have though is slightly less rich people and a lot more middle class people, which is better than a few really rich people and a lot of poor people.
2012-10-09 03:27:08 PM
1 votes:

mysticcat: What a ridiculous statistic. The goal is not equality. If that were the case, a nation that was entirely dirt poor would be the winner.

What you're looking for is standard of living. For instance, in Swaziland, 70% of the population lives below the poverty line, in the Dominican Republic 34%, in El Salvador 37%, Madagascar 50%, Phillipines 27%, Nigeria 70%. Jamaica and Malaysia are actually pretty reasonable at 4%(!) and 17%. In the U.S. that number is 15%. (CIA World Factbook). The U.S. could do better, but comparing us to countries like Denmark and Sweden is unfair


Gini coefficients are a time worn and accepted method for discussing geographies of inequality in populations. The method has its faults, but its generally agreed upon that they are a good method for quantifying inequality at a varity of scales. So nah [sticks out tongue].

Next week, can we learn how the elevation of your home has a direct correlation with your race? That was always my favorite lesson to teach in human geography.
2012-10-09 03:25:46 PM
1 votes:
There's a guy in my town worth $2 billion. I'm worth about $8 grand. BUT, if you take the average, we're both billionaires, and that's still pretty farking good.
2012-10-09 03:13:44 PM
1 votes:

mysticcat: What a ridiculous statistic. The goal is not equality. If that were the case, a nation that was entirely dirt poor would be the winner.

What you're looking for is standard of living. For instance, in Swaziland, 70% of the population lives below the poverty line, in the Dominican Republic 34%, in El Salvador 37%, Madagascar 50%, Phillipines 27%, Nigeria 70%. Jamaica and Malaysia are actually pretty reasonable at 4%(!) and 17%. In the U.S. that number is 15%. (CIA World Factbook). The U.S. could do better, but comparing us to countries like Denmark and Sweden is unfair


Why should we not compare ourselves to other developed nations of the world? The Scandinavian model results in less poor people while still retaining high overall wealth. Why would we not want that?
2012-10-09 03:13:41 PM
1 votes:

unlikely: Yeah but if We can get unemployment up to 20 47% if we can actually bust those unions and then bring send all those manufacturing jobs back here from to China and Thailand and the Philippines.


FTFY, because it's more likely.
2012-10-09 03:09:16 PM
1 votes:
Is it really fair though to compare a US city to an entire country?

And what does it really mean anyway? Bangladesh is pretty income equal. Everybody is poor. Versus if you look at a city like Memphis. Some parts of town are basically shacks, but if you get over near Collierville it is mostly all high end homes. Same with St. Louis. The North side (especially inside 270) is a disaster zone.
2012-10-09 03:05:49 PM
1 votes:

mysticcat: What a ridiculous statistic. The goal is not equality. If that were the case, a nation that was entirely dirt poor would be the winner.

What you're looking for is standard of living. For instance, in Swaziland, 70% of the population lives below the poverty line, in the Dominican Republic 34%, in El Salvador 37%, Madagascar 50%, Phillipines 27%, Nigeria 70%. Jamaica and Malaysia are actually pretty reasonable at 4%(!) and 17%. In the U.S. that number is 15%. (CIA World Factbook). The U.S. could do better, but comparing us to countries like Denmark and Sweden is unfair


You win the "Crown of Lowering Expectations" this week.
2012-10-09 11:19:25 AM
1 votes:
Ah. I see Richard Florida has found something new to latch onto. He didn't seem to give a damn about poverty back when he was shilling his "Creative Class" thesis, like some sort of carnival huckster.
2012-10-09 11:11:04 AM
1 votes:
So, the solution is to shuffle rich people around to average out the local numbers? Or just have all the rich people take their money out of the country so everyone's poor?
 
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