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(PJ Media)   Why gun microstamping won't work. But who cares about expensive regulations that lose jobs, jail innocent people, and can be thwarted with a $12 part, if we can look like we DID something   (pjmedia.com) divider line 322
    More: Obvious, semiautomatic firearms, PJM, shell casings, Remington Arms  
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1964 clicks; posted to Politics » on 09 Oct 2012 at 11:35 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-09 05:21:59 PM

Monkeyhouse Zendo: redmid17: If the democratic underground is ragging on it, you can be sure it's not exactly great stuff. The top link does a much better job of picking out the massive list of individual problems. Guy never even released his full data set so other could independently verify his work.

You limited the field to homicide. My statement wasn't limited to specifically homicide but included suicide and accidental death.

Now if you want to argue that people who don't own firearms are using firearms to off themselves or are dying in firearm related accidents at the same rate as those who do own firearms, I'd love to see the stats on that since it is pretty damned counterintuitive.


Per the CDC guns are about 95% effective when used for suicide, but account for less than 5% of attempts. Pills and drugs are only 2-3% effective, but account for more than 3/4 of suicide attempts. It's not the tool I'm worried about. It's the people who think they need to kill themselves that are the problem that needs solving, not gun ownership. Japan has almost zero firearm ownership and they are sitting about 3x the suicide rate, so clearly it's not just guns that we need to worry about.
 
2012-10-09 05:39:02 PM

redmid17: Per the CDC guns are about 95% effective when used for suicide, but account for less than 5% of attempts. Pills and drugs are only 2-3% effective, but account for more than 3/4 of suicide attempts. It's not the tool I'm worried about. It's the people who think they need to kill themselves that are the problem that needs solving, not gun ownership. Japan has almost zero firearm ownership and they are sitting about 3x the suicide rate, so clearly it's not just guns that we need to worry about.


What do suicide rates and the need to address mental health issues such that fewer people are trying to off themselves have to do with the relative rates of successful suicide by firearm for firearm owners vs those who do not own firearms? I was simply pointing out that the chances of dying by firearm is significantly greater for households who own firearms than for those that don't.

Japan has a well documented cultural issue with suicide that their government is attempting to address which is completely independent of their firearm ownership. But I'm certain you weren't attempting to muddy the waters by referencing cultures which are significantly different than the US.
 
2012-10-09 05:44:27 PM

Monkeyhouse Zendo: redmid17: Per the CDC guns are about 95% effective when used for suicide, but account for less than 5% of attempts. Pills and drugs are only 2-3% effective, but account for more than 3/4 of suicide attempts. It's not the tool I'm worried about. It's the people who think they need to kill themselves that are the problem that needs solving, not gun ownership. Japan has almost zero firearm ownership and they are sitting about 3x the suicide rate, so clearly it's not just guns that we need to worry about.

What do suicide rates and the need to address mental health issues such that fewer people are trying to off themselves have to do with the relative rates of successful suicide by firearm for firearm owners vs those who do not own firearms? I was simply pointing out that the chances of dying by firearm is significantly greater for households who own firearms than for those that don't.

Japan has a well documented cultural issue with suicide that their government is attempting to address which is completely independent of their firearm ownership. But I'm certain you weren't attempting to muddy the waters by referencing cultures which are significantly different than the US.


Okay then you can take issue with Canada's nearly identical suicide rate with a fraction of the guns. People are going to try to kill themselves. Trying to limit an enumerated right in the least effective way possible is irresponsible and idiotic.
 
2012-10-09 05:45:49 PM

Ricardo Klement: First off, you have a lot more time than people seem to envision to cause as much damage as possible. Klebold and Harris did not run out of time or ammo or even targets. Just look at what happens in theater fires. Some people never even get out. Having to swap out magazines will make a
I've never been hunting, but when I go to the range, I'd rather have a 20-round mag than a 10. Maybe it's just the way ranges work, but I don't want to have to purchase multiple 10-round mags just because someone who doesn't know any better can sleep better at night thinking they did anything useful. The only difference between my assault rifle and that of a friend who bought his during the Clinton assault rifle ban is that mine has a bayonet lug. That's it, that's the difference. Yet gun control advocates are under the impression that the placebo legislation known as the AWB was the bee's knees.

So why bother allowing 100-round mags? i>"I'm the enemy because I like to think. I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech and freedom of choice. I'm the kind of guy that could sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs or the side order of gravy fries? I want high cholesterol. I would eat bacon and butter and buckets of cheese. Okay? I want to smoke Cuban cigars the size of Cincinnati in the nonsmoking section. I want to run through the streets naked with green Jell-O all over my body reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I might suddenly feel the need to. Okay, pal?"


"Argentina" has very restrictive gun laws.
1. I most emphatically do not imagine, visualize, or daydream any scenarios where I would inflict mayhem on innocent civilians.
2. Don't bring Cuban cigars to the United States.
3. Lime Jell-O? In "Buenos Aires"? That is a dozen flavors of wrong.
4. Playboy?
5. Deliberately self-destructive behavior is a sign of mental illness. Seek help.
6. Convenience? Seriously? Seatbelts, speed limits, taxes, and traffic signals are inconvenient, yet we have them.
7. I shoot straight. And you have an "assault rifle"? Does ATF know?
8. Given 1 and 5 above, I suggest you spend your ammunition money elsewhere.

/Don't call me "pal", buddy.
 
2012-10-09 05:47:00 PM

redmid17: Okay then you can take issue with Canada's nearly identical suicide rate with a fraction of the guns. People are going to try to kill themselves. Trying to limit an enumerated right in the least effective way possible is irresponsible and idiotic.


fark, are you categorically unable to acknowledge that ownership of firearms increases the probability that a member of the household will die by firearm?
 
2012-10-09 05:52:09 PM

Monkeyhouse Zendo: redmid17: Okay then you can take issue with Canada's nearly identical suicide rate with a fraction of the guns. People are going to try to kill themselves. Trying to limit an enumerated right in the least effective way possible is irresponsible and idiotic.

fark, are you categorically unable to acknowledge that ownership of firearms increases the probability that a member of the household will die by firearm?


No I am telling you that you're asperger's is fixating on the wrong farking issue. Mental health care is the issue at hand here, not guns, especially since it's clearly drawn out that people can and will attempt and commit suicide via other methods. People freaking out about the gun homicide rate and the gun suicide rate aren't even thinking about why most of those deaths are happening. Gun homicides are overwhelmingly connected with gangs and drugs. Gun suicides are high because we have a deficient health care system.

What I'm getting out of this is that you care less about ensuring people don't want to commit suicide and more about making sure everyone knows that it's more dangerous to live with guns (if you're suicidal or a criminal).
 
2012-10-09 05:52:44 PM

redmid17: Monkeyhouse Zendo: redmid17: Okay then you can take issue with Canada's nearly identical suicide rate with a fraction of the guns. People are going to try to kill themselves. Trying to limit an enumerated right in the least effective way possible is irresponsible and idiotic.

fark, are you categorically unable to acknowledge that ownership of firearms increases the probability that a member of the household will die by firearm?

No I am telling you that you're asperger's is fixating on the wrong farking issue. Mental health care is the issue at hand here, not guns, especially since it's clearly drawn out that people can and will attempt and commit suicide via other methods. People freaking out about the gun homicide rate and the gun suicide rate aren't even thinking about why most of those deaths are happening. Gun homicides are overwhelmingly connected with gangs and drugs. Gun suicides are high because we have a deficient health care system.

What I'm getting out of this is that you care less about ensuring people don't want to commit suicide and more about making sure everyone knows that it's more dangerous to live with guns (if you're suicidal or a criminal).


your*

/god i hate typos
 
2012-10-09 05:57:34 PM

redmid17: No I am telling you that you're asperger's is fixating on the wrong farking issue. Mental health care is the issue at hand here, not guns, especially since it's clearly drawn out that people can and will attempt and commit suicide via other methods. People freaking out about the gun homicide rate and the gun suicide rate aren't even thinking about why most of those deaths are happening. Gun homicides are overwhelmingly connected with gangs and drugs. Gun suicides are high because we have a deficient health care system.


I'm the one with aspergers...

I simply pointed out that owning a firearm increases the probability that someone in your home will die via firearm and you motherfarker start spinning like top. I would think that it's a fairly common sense statement and something that is easily acknowledged but for some reason there are people who cannot acknowledge that owning a firearm can increase the chances of any negative outcome.

Why can you not agree that purely from an actuarial perspective, firearm ownership correlates with a higher probability of death by firearm?
 
2012-10-09 05:58:34 PM

Monkeyhouse Zendo: redmid17: No I am telling you that you're asperger's is fixating on the wrong farking issue. Mental health care is the issue at hand here, not guns, especially since it's clearly drawn out that people can and will attempt and commit suicide via other methods. People freaking out about the gun homicide rate and the gun suicide rate aren't even thinking about why most of those deaths are happening. Gun homicides are overwhelmingly connected with gangs and drugs. Gun suicides are high because we have a deficient health care system.

I'm the one with aspergers...

I simply pointed out that owning a firearm increases the probability that someone in your home will die via firearm and you motherfarker start spinning like top. I would think that it's a fairly common sense statement and something that is easily acknowledged but for some reason there are people who cannot acknowledge that owning a firearm can increase the chances of any negative outcome.

Why can you not agree that purely from an actuarial perspective, firearm ownership correlates with a higher probability of death by firearm?


Yes, if one is a criminal or has mental health issues. When you control for those, no one does not.
 
2012-10-09 05:58:54 PM

Monkeyhouse Zendo: you motherfarker


you motherfarkers

redmid17: /god i hate typos


same here
 
2012-10-09 06:00:31 PM

redmid17: Yes, if one is a criminal or has mental health issues. When you control for those, no one does not.


So the answer is yes. Thank you. I think we've made a great breakthrough today regarding your ability to recognize objective reality. Tomorrow we can work on your equivocation.
 
2012-10-09 06:14:41 PM

Monkeyhouse Zendo: redmid17: Yes, if one is a criminal or has mental health issues. When you control for those, no one does not.

So the answer is yes. Thank you. I think we've made a great breakthrough today regarding your ability to recognize objective reality. Tomorrow we can work on your equivocation.


Tomorrow we actually have to start with defining qualifiers. This seems to be lost on you. Then we can move onto how to properly address public health issues without trying to strip rights from the American public.
 
2012-10-09 06:52:09 PM

Gonz: Dittybopper, I don't mean "tell me why this law WON'T work." I mean "what WILL work?", and how do we implement it?


Easy, outlaw people.
If you read the bill it does NOT require micro-stamping. It outlaws the SALE of a new gun that is not equipped to micro-stamp it's fired cartridge cases. The purpose of the bill is to put every LEGAL gun store in New York out of business. When a manufacturer can sell every gun they can produce and have backlogs of months on orders who in their right minds would spend millions on retooling their entire production line to sell to a niche market? If no micro-stamped guns are available how long can a LEGAL dealer stay in business? Of course this will in no way inconvience the ILLEGAL dealers importing guns to sell on the largest black market in the country. These politicians have no desire to interfere with that. They want the ILLEGAL guns to give them a reason to whine for Federal infringments on law abiding citizens. If you don't have a crisis to exploit, just create one.
 
2012-10-09 07:55:37 PM

dittybopper: Gonz: Dittybopper, I don't mean "tell me why this law WON'T work." I mean "what WILL work?", and how do we implement it?

I'm going to turn your assumption around that we need to do something, and ask why do we need something more? Gun violence isn't a significant problem for WHITE PEOPLE in the United States.

What is the urgency? Why do we *NEED* to do something?

 

FTFY
 
2012-10-09 08:28:30 PM

CPennypacker: Sure it will


COBIS solved exactly zero crimes, i have no expectation that microstamping will do any better.
 
2012-10-09 09:00:02 PM

Lehk: CPennypacker: Sure it will

COBIS solved exactly zero crimes, i have no expectation that microstamping will do any better.


This. THEY ALREADY TRIED IT AND IT DIDN"T WORK. That really should be the end of it right there.
 
2012-10-09 10:21:45 PM
Let's do nothing. That always works.
 
2012-10-09 11:31:53 PM

Bucky Katt: Let's do nothing. That always works.


Or let's just try the exact same thing that just cost the taxpayers something like $30,000,000 and was finally cancelled after 10 years because it was an abject failure which didn't result in a SINGLE criminal conviction. Unless you think a ten year test run isn't long enough?
 
2012-10-09 11:33:47 PM

Bucky Katt: Let's do nothing. That always works.


When the choice is between doing nothing and doing something that we already know doesn't work, doing nothing becomes the smarter decision.
 
2012-10-10 12:58:39 AM

Bucky Katt: Let's do nothing. That always works.


Unless someone rolls technology back 500 years or comes up with a way to make humans bulletproof, firearms are here to stay. There's a reason the Colt SAA was called "The Equalizer" after all. Of course we could all go back to the rule of the strongest and most ruthless, because that's worked out so well in the past. But feel free to count on the benevolence and kindness of governments and your fellow man.
 
2012-10-10 01:19:20 PM

BayouOtter: Guns are not efficient methods for killing loads of people, magazine capacity notwithstanding. In the absence of a gun, for whatever reason, a nutball murderer will still kill people. They will kill a lot of people.


I'd be completely satisfied with our firearm regulations if we would stop selling guns to people who are farking crazy. A crazy person just yaps at people on the street and occasionally mistakes you for their cousin and comes at you with a sharp object they found on the side of the road. Why? They are too crazy to plan. A crazy person who is also focused and angry will try to buy guns with the express purpose of shooting people with the bullets that come out. Or they will buy knives, or fertilizer. But guns are the Great Equalizer. A very small percentage of people are crazy enough to go on a murder spree. A small percentage of THAT group STAYS crazy enough for long enough to actually do it. And an even smaller percentage of THAT group has their shiat together enough to make a bomb. A crazy person, with guns, in a moment of anger, is an IMMEDIATE threat to the safety of those around them. A crazy person in a moment of anger is ... well, go hang out in Philadelphia for a while and you'll meet them. They are a bit scary, but mostly harmless.

I'm not saying ban a certain class of guns because that particular type of gun is more likely to be used in the commission of a crime or killing spree. I'm saying ban SALES of ALL FIREARMS to crazy people. I'm *saying* that the "problem" of gun violence in America isn't solved by gun legislation, but adequate support for the mentally ill.

/who do I vote for?
 
2012-10-10 11:08:45 PM

BeesNuts: BayouOtter: Guns are not efficient methods for killing loads of people, magazine capacity notwithstanding. In the absence of a gun, for whatever reason, a nutball murderer will still kill people. They will kill a lot of people.

I'd be completely satisfied with our firearm regulations if we would stop selling guns to people who are farking crazy. A crazy person just yaps at people on the street and occasionally mistakes you for their cousin and comes at you with a sharp object they found on the side of the road. Why? They are too crazy to plan. A crazy person who is also focused and angry will try to buy guns with the express purpose of shooting people with the bullets that come out. Or they will buy knives, or fertilizer. But guns are the Great Equalizer. A very small percentage of people are crazy enough to go on a murder spree. A small percentage of THAT group STAYS crazy enough for long enough to actually do it. And an even smaller percentage of THAT group has their shiat together enough to make a bomb. A crazy person, with guns, in a moment of anger, is an IMMEDIATE threat to the safety of those around them. A crazy person in a moment of anger is ... well, go hang out in Philadelphia for a while and you'll meet them. They are a bit scary, but mostly harmless.

I'm not saying ban a certain class of guns because that particular type of gun is more likely to be used in the commission of a crime or killing spree. I'm saying ban SALES of ALL FIREARMS to crazy people. I'm *saying* that the "problem" of gun violence in America isn't solved by gun legislation, but adequate support for the mentally ill.

/who do I vote for?


Form 4473- Question 11F-
"Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective (which includes having been adjudicated incompetent to manage your own affairs) or have you ever been committed to a mental institution?"

The law apparently thought of this already.
 
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