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(PJ Media)   Why gun microstamping won't work. But who cares about expensive regulations that lose jobs, jail innocent people, and can be thwarted with a $12 part, if we can look like we DID something   ( pjmedia.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, semiautomatic firearms, PJM, shell casings, Remington Arms  
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1985 clicks; posted to Politics » on 09 Oct 2012 at 11:35 AM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-09 11:48:28 AM  
What legislation actually proposes this? Or is this yet another contrived problem from the imagination of Republicans?
 
2012-10-09 11:48:34 AM  
Maybe the person thinking of possible pitfalls with microstamping should be working with the people implementing microstamping to overcome those pitfalls.
 
2012-10-09 11:49:14 AM  
I just read the bill.
http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?sh=printbill&bn=A01157&term=

It doesn't require manufacture of micro-printed guns. It requires sellers to only sell guns (made after X date), that are micro-printed. So no matter where you are located or where you are manufacturing, if you want to sell new guns to people in NY you've got to micro-print them.

This just means guns will be more expensive in NY and manufacturers will if they want to sell to NY create guns for NY.
 
2012-10-09 11:49:56 AM  
But who cares about expensive regulations that lose jobs...

Won't someone think of those poor, poor gun manufacturers? They face too many pesky regulations, the poor dears.
 
2012-10-09 11:51:33 AM  

Gonz: I'm on a mobile, so I'm not going to quote you, but here's why we- and by "we", I mean "people whose idea of gun control is a dime-sized group at 25 meters"- *need* to do something.

It's because perception IS reality, period. And right now, there's a growing perception that American gun owners really don't care if mentally unstable individuals can amass arsenals, as long as they got theirs. Yes, statistically, they're isolated incidents, but every time there's another mass shooting- be it Cho at VT, the dude in Aurora, or others, it seems the common narrative afterward becomes "why was this individual allowed to stock up like this"?

And the biggest problem is that the current gun culture finds it amusing to thumb its collective nose at any proposed fixes. When background checks started coming into vogue, I saw more than one dealer at a gun show accept the name "John Doe", with no ID check, because the buyer "looked like an all right guy".

We need to do something now, and give it teeth, because doing nothing is going to result in absolutely Draconian action being taken when a majority of the country finally loses their patience for the final time.


If a dealer sold a gun without running a background check then they broke the law and need to lose their FFL. If it wasn't a dealer then the person left themselves open to civil culpability as well as possibly criminal charges if the gun is used in a crime. Selling a gun to someone you suspect is ineligible to buy a gun (using an alias to buy is suspicious) is a federal crime.
 
2012-10-09 11:52:33 AM  

andrewagill: Hey, can someone tell me how a program that would require developing a completely new technology, deploying that in new machines in every firearm factory, staffing each of those machines, and maintaining them when they fail would lose jobs?


The jobs would be leaving New York State and Connecticut, and going to North Carolina.

Also, firearms manufacturers that are required to do that might not sell their guns in New York State anymore, especially handgun manufacturers. Because of New York State's onerous Sullivan Law, it's a major pain in the ass to own a handgun in NYS, so the number of handguns sold per 100,000 people is lower than most states. Handgun manufacturers could essentially stop selling here and it would have little effect on their bottom lines.

Of course, that's the intended effect, isn't it? To make it increasingly harder to buy a handgun in New York State, thus accomplishing a de facto ban, something that has been off the table since McDonald in 2010.
 
2012-10-09 11:52:39 AM  
Microstamping is a stupid idea done purely to and simply to hurt companies who make guns. That's the only reason.

Microstamping could easily be spoofed and waste police time - or worse, send the wrong people to jail.

This is a stupid argument however.

They're going to find your shell casing, then find you, and then they're going to test fire your gun for a ballistics match. I will grant you that it's going to cause some terrible inconvenience for somebody but nobody is going to jail...

Then again, knowing police...
 
2012-10-09 11:52:50 AM  

MindStalker: This just means guns will be more expensive in NY and manufacturers will if they want to sell to NY create guns for NY.


Or they won't sell guns in NY, and just market more in other states.
 
2012-10-09 11:52:52 AM  

GAT_00: And what I'm saying is his argument makes no sense. It's a standard NRA argument: "Well, this solution won't fix every single problem right away, so let's not do it! We are fundamentally opposed to it!" or "Hey, this doesn't work exactly the same for all of the vast assortment of guns. Let's not even consider doing it!" It's a childish argument.


The "solution" to an overblown problem won't fix anything. It's a punitive measure, designed to increase the barrier for all gun ownership, through increased costs, more mandatory registration, and the market reacting to a hostile environment in the state of New York.

But the NRA and their lackeys are opposed to any kind of solution.

You mistakenly (and repeatedly) insist that the NRA is representative of all gun owners, when they are representative of at most 5% of gun owners.

They can't grasp the concept of incrementalism

Oh wow. OF course we do. That's why we fight tooth and nail against AWBs, mandatory registration, and pie-in-the-sky science fiction ideas like microstamping.

We know you're not after our "hunting rifles." Yet. But sooner or later, because of incremental-ism, you'll come after our deadly, armor-piercing sniper's weapons.
 
2012-10-09 11:53:59 AM  

Gonz: I saw more than one dealer at a gun show accept the name "John Doe", with no ID check, because the buyer "looked like an all right guy".


So you witnessed a crime, but didn't call the police?
 
2012-10-09 11:54:50 AM  

Mrbogey: GAT_00: dittybopper: itsdan: GAT_00: I like how one currently existing gun where removing the firing pin is easy proves that engraving the firing pin on all FUTURE guns wouldn't work.

It's not one gun. The firing pin is a serviceable part.

This. *ALL* guns that I know of have a removable firing pin*, and generally, for most, removing that firing pin is part of normal cleaning procedure.


*Not including open-bolt submachine guns with a fixed firing pin, but none has been legally manufactured for sale to civilians in the US since 1986.

And I'm aware of that, and that they do need replaced as they can wear down. The fact that in one gun they can be removed by a ballpoint pen doesn't come close to proving why microstamping is bad.

Jackson Herring: GAT_00: Do people actually just leave shell casing everywhere when you go to a gun range?

Uh, yes?

That seems incredibly impolite. I mean, walking downrange is obviously out, but why would you not pick up shells at your feet?

why should your ideas on the issue be considered when you have a fundamental lack of gun knowledge?


He's right. Every range I've ever been to has a "police your brass" rule. Yes, many rifles discharge the casing quite a ways, but they'll generally all end up in the same area. Keep count and pick them up after you're done. I mean, this idea is really dumb, but not cleaning up after yourself is a dick move.

/no one really follows it
//we pick up what we fired +10, but the ground is still covered
///annoys the hell out of me
 
2012-10-09 11:56:28 AM  

Mr_Fabulous: But who cares about expensive regulations that lose jobs...

Won't someone think of those poor, poor gun manufacturers? They face too many pesky regulations, the poor dears.


Do you realize that guns are the only common retail goods that you specifically need prior government approval to purchase a new one, or a used one from a dealer?

You don't need that for a car, or a house, or gasoline, or clothing, or teddy bears, or anything else that you might commonly purchase.
 
2012-10-09 11:56:42 AM  

Mr_Fabulous: But who cares about expensive regulations that lose jobs...

Won't someone think of those poor, poor gun manufacturers? They face too many pesky regulations, the poor dears.


Yes, why should liberals give a shiat about blue-collar manufacturing....

dittybopper: Of course, that's the intended effect, isn't it? To make it increasingly harder to buy a handgun in New York State, thus accomplishing a de facto ban, something that has been off the table since McDonald in 2010.


GoldSpider: Or they won't sell guns in NY, and just market more in other states.


DINGDINGDING.

It's like anti abortion laws that Republicans keep trying to pass. Sure, they can't outlaw abortion, but they can establish so many legal and regulatory barriers as to make it impossible for someone to get one.
 
2012-10-09 11:58:50 AM  

Coolfusis: He's right. Every range I've ever been to has a "police your brass" rule. Yes, many rifles discharge the casing quite a ways, but they'll generally all end up in the same area. Keep count and pick them up after you're done. I mean, this idea is really dumb, but not cleaning up after yourself is a dick move.

/no one really follows it
//we pick up what we fired +10, but the ground is still covered
///annoys the hell out of me



You don't sound like a reloader.
 
2012-10-09 11:59:53 AM  

randomjsa: Microstamping is a stupid idea done purely to and simply to hurt companies who make guns. That's the only reason.

Microstamping could easily be spoofed and waste police time - or worse, send the wrong people to jail.

This is a stupid argument however.

They're going to find your shell casing, then find you, and then they're going to test fire your gun for a ballistics match. I will grant you that it's going to cause some terrible inconvenience for somebody but nobody is going to jail...

Then again, knowing police...


This makes absolutely no sense? If they find the shell casing, it was because a crime was committed. They trace it back to the gun owner and do the ballistics test? That means the gun owner still has the gun? If the ballistics match that means they probably committed the crime. Obviously they are in big trouble. What was your point?
 
2012-10-09 12:00:07 PM  

mrshowrules: If you think deaths equivalent to 9/11 happening every month is not a big deal that you must consider 9/11 itself to be meaningless.


Not so much the first half, but I certainly agree with the second half.

/ 9/11 is the new Godwin
 
2012-10-09 12:00:22 PM  

dittybopper: Mr_Fabulous: But who cares about expensive regulations that lose jobs...

Won't someone think of those poor, poor gun manufacturers? They face too many pesky regulations, the poor dears.

Do you realize that guns are the only common retail goods that you specifically need prior government approval to purchase a new one, or a used one from a dealer?

You don't need that for a car, or a house, or gasoline, or clothing, or teddy bears, or anything else that you might commonly purchase.


I'm waiting for maniacs to realize kerosene is cheaper than a gun and can be even deadlier if misused. If that nutnob used Molotov cocktails, almost everyone in that theatre would be a memory.
 
2012-10-09 12:00:28 PM  
This thread doesn't have enough small penis jokes.
 
2012-10-09 12:01:01 PM  

dittybopper: Do you realize that guns are the only common retail goods that you specifically need prior government approval to purchase a new one, or a used one from a dealer?


Oh please. You really think you can buy a new car without showing someone your driver's license?
 
2012-10-09 12:01:07 PM  
So to sell a firearm in NY state it needs to be fitted with a microstamp.

Why are all the rugged individualists rushing to their fainting couches again?
 
2012-10-09 12:02:26 PM  

GoldSpider: Gonz: I saw more than one dealer at a gun show accept the name "John Doe", with no ID check, because the buyer "looked like an all right guy".

So you witnessed a crime, but didn't call the police?


To be fair, he did say he looked like an all right guy.
 
2012-10-09 12:02:31 PM  

vpb: So in other words, we need to make micro stamping mandatory nationwide and then the problem is solved? Another example of why sensible regulations are a good idea.


Only if we do so retroactively since 2000 or so. Old guns will never have it and will always be on the market.
 
2012-10-09 12:03:20 PM  

ignacio: vpb: So in other words, we need to make micro stamping mandatory nationwide and then the problem is solved? Another example of why sensible regulations are a good idea.

Only if we do so retroactively since 2000 or so. Old guns will never have it and will always be on the market.


Can't catch all murderers, so why implement something to catch some murderers? Derp!
 
2012-10-09 12:03:33 PM  

Coolfusis: Mrbogey: GAT_00: dittybopper: itsdan: GAT_00: I like how one currently existing gun where removing the firing pin is easy proves that engraving the firing pin on all FUTURE guns wouldn't work.

It's not one gun. The firing pin is a serviceable part.

This. *ALL* guns that I know of have a removable firing pin*, and generally, for most, removing that firing pin is part of normal cleaning procedure.


*Not including open-bolt submachine guns with a fixed firing pin, but none has been legally manufactured for sale to civilians in the US since 1986.

And I'm aware of that, and that they do need replaced as they can wear down. The fact that in one gun they can be removed by a ballpoint pen doesn't come close to proving why microstamping is bad.

Jackson Herring: GAT_00: Do people actually just leave shell casing everywhere when you go to a gun range?

Uh, yes?

That seems incredibly impolite. I mean, walking downrange is obviously out, but why would you not pick up shells at your feet?

why should your ideas on the issue be considered when you have a fundamental lack of gun knowledge?

He's right. Every range I've ever been to has a "police your brass" rule. Yes, many rifles discharge the casing quite a ways, but they'll generally all end up in the same area. Keep count and pick them up after you're done. I mean, this idea is really dumb, but not cleaning up after yourself is a dick move.

/no one really follows it
//we pick up what we fired +10, but the ground is still covered
///annoys the hell out of me


I just quoted the most recent post I saw from him. The specific post wasn't the issue but the overall back and forth.
 
2012-10-09 12:03:44 PM  

Coolfusis: Mrbogey: GAT_00: dittybopper: itsdan: GAT_00: I like how one currently existing gun where removing the firing pin is easy proves that engraving the firing pin on all FUTURE guns wouldn't work.

It's not one gun. The firing pin is a serviceable part.

This. *ALL* guns that I know of have a removable firing pin*, and generally, for most, removing that firing pin is part of normal cleaning procedure.


*Not including open-bolt submachine guns with a fixed firing pin, but none has been legally manufactured for sale to civilians in the US since 1986.

And I'm aware of that, and that they do need replaced as they can wear down. The fact that in one gun they can be removed by a ballpoint pen doesn't come close to proving why microstamping is bad.

Jackson Herring: GAT_00: Do people actually just leave shell casing everywhere when you go to a gun range?

Uh, yes?

That seems incredibly impolite. I mean, walking downrange is obviously out, but why would you not pick up shells at your feet?

why should your ideas on the issue be considered when you have a fundamental lack of gun knowledge?

He's right. Every range I've ever been to has a "police your brass" rule. Yes, many rifles discharge the casing quite a ways, but they'll generally all end up in the same area. Keep count and pick them up after you're done. I mean, this idea is really dumb, but not cleaning up after yourself is a dick move.

/no one really follows it
//we pick up what we fired +10, but the ground is still covered
///annoys the hell out of me


Indoor ranges generally prohibit any collection of casings that are in front of the firing line. The casings behind the line are generally picked up and put in a provided trash/"recycling" receptacle or something similar. I'm not a reloader, so I don't keep my used shotgun shells or rifle bullets. Either way, clean up or not, there is still going to be a pile of shells or casings that anyone can grab if they are so inclined.
 
2012-10-09 12:05:14 PM  

mrshowrules: This makes absolutely no sense? If they find the shell casing, it was because a crime was committed. They trace it back to the gun owner and do the ballistics test? That means the gun owner still has the gun? If the ballistics match that means they probably committed the crime. Obviously they are in big trouble. What was your point?


All you'd have to do if you wanted to commit a crime and get away with it or implicate somebody else would be to leave someone else's spent brass at the scene of the crime. This microstamping won't prove anything other then the origin of spent casings at crime scenes. It will not prove that the owner of the microstamped guns was at the scene of the crime, or even that they were the ones who fired the brass that was found at the scene.

This is purely a punitive measure, a ban that seeks to avoid the constitutional pitfalls of Heller and McDonald.
 
2012-10-09 12:05:58 PM  

CPennypacker: ignacio: vpb: So in other words, we need to make micro stamping mandatory nationwide and then the problem is solved? Another example of why sensible regulations are a good idea.

Only if we do so retroactively since 2000 or so. Old guns will never have it and will always be on the market.

Can't catch all murderers, so why implement something to catch some murderers? Derp!


It wont catch any murders but why not spend scads of money? Herp!
 
2012-10-09 12:07:50 PM  

Fark It: mrshowrules: This makes absolutely no sense? If they find the shell casing, it was because a crime was committed. They trace it back to the gun owner and do the ballistics test? That means the gun owner still has the gun? If the ballistics match that means they probably committed the crime. Obviously they are in big trouble. What was your point?

All you'd have to do if you wanted to commit a crime and get away with it or implicate somebody else would be to leave someone else's spent brass at the scene of the crime. This microstamping won't prove anything other then the origin of spent casings at crime scenes. It will not prove that the owner of the microstamped guns was at the scene of the crime, or even that they were the ones who fired the brass that was found at the scene.

This is purely a punitive measure, a ban that seeks to avoid the constitutional pitfalls of Heller and McDonald.


There's no possible way that knowing the owner of the gun could lead them to the person who used it? Because that's where I see that still being useful. "Oh god, my gun was used for "X"? Maybe "x" took it!"

To assume that there's NO VALUE AT ALL to this is silly, as is assuming they would surely convict the owner with no other evidence.
 
2012-10-09 12:08:10 PM  
Dear Citizens,

Guns are big business. They make a shiat-ton of money(metric) for a lot of people in the sales of guns and ammo, and all the cottage industry BS that goes with them. Guns are also a wonderful way to be politically divisive, and spread fear amongst parties to keep people partisan for no real reason. There is also a lot of money to be made from lobbyists from both sides of the issue to be milked. But please, let's keep having irrational debates about how politicians from either side are stupid enough to interupt the steady flow of money that guns brings to them.
 
2012-10-09 12:09:06 PM  

Fark It: mrshowrules: This makes absolutely no sense? If they find the shell casing, it was because a crime was committed. They trace it back to the gun owner and do the ballistics test? That means the gun owner still has the gun? If the ballistics match that means they probably committed the crime. Obviously they are in big trouble. What was your point?

All you'd have to do if you wanted to commit a crime and get away with it or implicate somebody else would be to leave someone else's spent brass at the scene of the crime. This microstamping won't prove anything other then the origin of spent casings at crime scenes. It will not prove that the owner of the microstamped guns was at the scene of the crime, or even that they were the ones who fired the brass that was found at the scene.

This is purely a punitive measure, a ban that seeks to avoid the constitutional pitfalls of Heller and McDonald.


If you are going to go to the trouble of getting someones spent casings, why not steal their gun. Who things that far ahead honestly? We aren't all dealing with Bond super villains here.

Anyways, I don't have a specific opinion on microstamping. My position is that Conservatives should be proposing solutions to gun violence instead of Liberals. Their the ones that have a hard-on for guns.
 
2012-10-09 12:10:49 PM  

GoldSpider: Gonz: I saw more than one dealer at a gun show accept the name "John Doe", with no ID check, because the buyer "looked like an all right guy".

So you witnessed a crime, but didn't call the police?


Yep. In 1997(?), it's not like phones were the easiest things to find in a municipal auditorium.

And if I had a phone, who was I going to call? The local sheriff? In Tennessee? I'd be putting my own neck on the line. The ATF? "Hey, drop everything and come to this gun show- there's a Southern dude buying a gun. The dealer's the redneck dude next to the guy selling racist targets."
 
2012-10-09 12:11:04 PM  

LasersHurt: To assume that there's NO VALUE AT ALL to this is silly, as is assuming they would surely convict the owner with no other evidence.


What value does this fantasy idea have? How many gun crimes in the state of New York are committed with registered guns? Do you know how easy it is to alter a firing pin, to replace one? Do you know how long the stamp will last (how many rounds)?

Do you know anything?
 
2012-10-09 12:11:38 PM  

dittybopper: So, a slippery slope? Microstamping doesn't work, so let's try this too. And when that fails, try this. And this. And then you end up like the United Kingdom, where modern handgun ownership is banned, and even shotgun ownership is highly regulated.


Yes, you did use a slippery slope argument there. Good job discrediting yourself.
 
2012-10-09 12:12:05 PM  

Coolfusis: Mrbogey: GAT_00: dittybopper: itsdan: GAT_00: I like how one currently existing gun where removing the firing pin is easy proves that engraving the firing pin on all FUTURE guns wouldn't work.

It's not one gun. The firing pin is a serviceable part.

This. *ALL* guns that I know of have a removable firing pin*, and generally, for most, removing that firing pin is part of normal cleaning procedure.


*Not including open-bolt submachine guns with a fixed firing pin, but none has been legally manufactured for sale to civilians in the US since 1986.

And I'm aware of that, and that they do need replaced as they can wear down. The fact that in one gun they can be removed by a ballpoint pen doesn't come close to proving why microstamping is bad.

Jackson Herring: GAT_00: Do people actually just leave shell casing everywhere when you go to a gun range?

Uh, yes?

That seems incredibly impolite. I mean, walking downrange is obviously out, but why would you not pick up shells at your feet?

why should your ideas on the issue be considered when you have a fundamental lack of gun knowledge?

He's right. Every range I've ever been to has a "police your brass" rule. Yes, many rifles discharge the casing quite a ways, but they'll generally all end up in the same area. Keep count and pick them up after you're done. I mean, this idea is really dumb, but not cleaning up after yourself is a dick move.

/no one really follows it
//we pick up what we fired +10, but the ground is still covered
///annoys the hell out of me


Rules at my range are that it isn't required whatsoever. Once in a while someone sweeps them up for metals recycling. Though if it's anything but rimfire or ComBloc steel someone like me will pick them up because I handload lots of calibers and I'm cheap.

/scored ~40 once-fired 300 Win cases a month or so back
//street value of about $20
 
2012-10-09 12:12:19 PM  

ignacio: vpb: So in other words, we need to make micro stamping mandatory nationwide and then the problem is solved? Another example of why sensible regulations are a good idea.

Only if we do so retroactively since 2000 or so. Old guns will never have it and will always be on the market.


2000? More like ca. 1890, when the first guns built to handle smokeless powders became widely available. A high percentage of them still work perfectly well today. There are millions of guns made before even 2000. The stamps seem like they also could be pretty readily defeated by changing out parts, or removing a very small amount of material with a scrap of crocus cloth.
 
2012-10-09 12:13:20 PM  

Fark It: All you'd have to do if you wanted to commit a crime and get away with it or implicate somebody else would be to leave someone else's spent brass at the scene of the crime.


Provided you have taken the time and effort to recover spent brass that is both stamped and matches the firearm that you're using.

No security measures can stop someone who is committed to their goal and has the time and resources to plan well. Fortunately for the police, most crimes are not well planned and most murders are committed in the heat of the moment.
 
2012-10-09 12:13:22 PM  

Holocaust Agnostic: CPennypacker: ignacio: vpb: So in other words, we need to make micro stamping mandatory nationwide and then the problem is solved? Another example of why sensible regulations are a good idea.

Only if we do so retroactively since 2000 or so. Old guns will never have it and will always be on the market.

Can't catch all murderers, so why implement something to catch some murderers? Derp!

It wont catch any murders but why not spend scads of money? Herp!


Sure it will
 
2012-10-09 12:13:24 PM  

mrshowrules: f you are going to go to the trouble of getting someones spent casings, why not steal their gun. Who things that far ahead honestly? We aren't all dealing with Bond super villains here.


Well, it's easier to report a gun stolen than it is to report spent brass stolen, for one. Number two, people don't discard their weapons at gun ranges and leave them there to be processed for scrap.

My position is that Conservatives should be proposing solutions to gun violence instead of Liberals. Their the ones that have a hard-on for guns.

Good thing I'm a liberal then.
 
2012-10-09 12:15:49 PM  

Coolfusis: He's right. Every range I've ever been to has a "police your brass" rule. Yes, many rifles discharge the casing quite a ways, but they'll generally all end up in the same area. Keep count and pick them up after you're done. I mean, this idea is really dumb, but not cleaning up after yourself is a dick move.

/no one really follows it
//we pick up what we fired +10, but the ground is still covered
///annoys the hell out of me


Last range I went to would charge you extra if you didn't pick up your casings.
 
2012-10-09 12:15:51 PM  

MindStalker: This just means guns will be more expensive in NY and manufacturers will if they want to sell to NY create guns for NY.


For handguns, NY is a small market, because the onerous laws keep most people from buying them unless they *REALLY* want one (legally).

For example, if I wanted to get my pistol permit, I'd have to take a 3 hour class (cost: $20), get fingerprinted ($90 fee), fill out a bunch of paperwork including getting 3 personal references who live in the same county, Pay a $25 fee to the county sheriff, pay $14 for 4 photos, and $10 to the county clerk.

Then I get to wait 6 to 8 *MONTHS* for it to get approved.

Once it is approved, I have to notify the local clerk each and every time I buy or sell a handgun, so they can amend my permit.

That's why the market for handguns in New York State is actually relatively small.
 
2012-10-09 12:16:12 PM  

Fark It: You mistakenly (and repeatedly) insist that the NRA is representative of all gun owners, when they are representative of at most 5% of gun owners.

So you're saying that the NRA is a fringe organization?

 
2012-10-09 12:16:18 PM  

Fark It: mrshowrules: f you are going to go to the trouble of getting someones spent casings, why not steal their gun. Who things that far ahead honestly? We aren't all dealing with Bond super villains here.

Well, it's easier to report a gun stolen than it is to report spent brass stolen, for one. Number two, people don't discard their weapons at gun ranges and leave them there to be processed for scrap.

My position is that Conservatives should be proposing solutions to gun violence instead of Liberals. Their the ones that have a hard-on for guns.

Good thing I'm a liberal then.


More accurately then, people who are pro-gun, should come up with the strategy/rules to reduce gun violence.
 
2012-10-09 12:16:52 PM  

mrshowrules: Fark It: mrshowrules: This makes absolutely no sense? If they find the shell casing, it was because a crime was committed. They trace it back to the gun owner and do the ballistics test? That means the gun owner still has the gun? If the ballistics match that means they probably committed the crime. Obviously they are in big trouble. What was your point?

All you'd have to do if you wanted to commit a crime and get away with it or implicate somebody else would be to leave someone else's spent brass at the scene of the crime. This microstamping won't prove anything other then the origin of spent casings at crime scenes. It will not prove that the owner of the microstamped guns was at the scene of the crime, or even that they were the ones who fired the brass that was found at the scene.

This is purely a punitive measure, a ban that seeks to avoid the constitutional pitfalls of Heller and McDonald.

If you are going to go to the trouble of getting someones spent casings, why not steal their gun. Who things that far ahead honestly? We aren't all dealing with Bond super villains here.

Anyways, I don't have a specific opinion on microstamping. My position is that Conservatives should be proposing solutions to gun violence instead of Liberals. Their the ones that have a hard-on for guns.


that was one scenario. Another is use a revolver. Another is police your brass at the crime. Another is modify your pin. The scenarios are multitude.

You may catch the odd killer but you'll spend billions and harass a lot of innocent people.

Btw... What do you think about the TSA?
 
2012-10-09 12:18:08 PM  
There are effective ways to regulate guns, and then there's this.

I once saw an image that read, "People who can, teach. People who can't, pass laws about teaching." Well, the same certainly holds true for guns. "People who know guns go to the range. People who don't know guns pass laws regulating them."
 
2012-10-09 12:19:21 PM  

Ricardo Klement: "People who know guns go to the range. People who don't know guns pass laws regulating them."


mrshowrules: More accurately then, people who are pro-gun, should come up with the strategy/rules to reduce gun violence.


Apt.
 
2012-10-09 12:19:51 PM  

GAT_00: Fark It: Supporters of the technology say it will be a "game changer," allowing authorities to quickly identify the registered guns used in crimes.

Problem 1

Removal of firing pin

Problem 2 (it takes seconds and can be thwarted with a nail-file)

This will be useless for revolvers.

Problem 3

This will be useless for rimfire.

Problem 4

Actual law-abiding gun owners will have to police their brass whenever they go to the range, as they could unwittingly become implicated in crimes by leaving their personally identifiable cartridge casings behind for criminals to plant at crime scenes.

Problem 5

I like how one currently existing gun where removing the firing pin is easy proves that engraving the firing pin on all FUTURE guns wouldn't work. That's some fantastic logic there. And your flat refusal to even consider other options for guns like revolvers really proves that you do in fact care about fixing an issue that your beloved NRA has told you should be killed at all costs. And why exactly shouldn't you police your brass? Do people actually just leave shell casing everywhere when you go to a gun range?


You've never been to a range, have you?
 
2012-10-09 12:20:17 PM  

Mr_Fabulous: dittybopper: Do you realize that guns are the only common retail goods that you specifically need prior government approval to purchase a new one, or a used one from a dealer?

Oh please. You really think you can buy a new car without showing someone your driver's license?


Showing a driver's license = criminal background check?

There is no law that requires you to have a valid driver's license in order to purchase a car, certainly not at the federal level, and I doubt most states have such a requirement.

To buy a gun from a dealer, though, either new or used, that dealer has to contact the National Instant Check System (NICS) and get an approval before they can sell you that gun.
 
2012-10-09 12:20:35 PM  

Mrbogey: mrshowrules: Fark It: mrshowrules: This makes absolutely no sense? If they find the shell casing, it was because a crime was committed. They trace it back to the gun owner and do the ballistics test? That means the gun owner still has the gun? If the ballistics match that means they probably committed the crime. Obviously they are in big trouble. What was your point?

All you'd have to do if you wanted to commit a crime and get away with it or implicate somebody else would be to leave someone else's spent brass at the scene of the crime. This microstamping won't prove anything other then the origin of spent casings at crime scenes. It will not prove that the owner of the microstamped guns was at the scene of the crime, or even that they were the ones who fired the brass that was found at the scene.

This is purely a punitive measure, a ban that seeks to avoid the constitutional pitfalls of Heller and McDonald.

If you are going to go to the trouble of getting someones spent casings, why not steal their gun. Who things that far ahead honestly? We aren't all dealing with Bond super villains here.

Anyways, I don't have a specific opinion on microstamping. My position is that Conservatives should be proposing solutions to gun violence instead of Liberals. Their the ones that have a hard-on for guns.

that was one scenario. Another is use a revolver. Another is police your brass at the crime. Another is modify your pin. The scenarios are multitude.

You may catch the odd killer but you'll spend billions and harass a lot of innocent people.

Btw... What do you think about the TSA?


$Billions? Really? A real figure and a determination by law enforcement on its effective would be more meaningful.
 
2012-10-09 12:20:50 PM  
Oh yeah, microstamping, the rape wand of gun control.
 
2012-10-09 12:21:01 PM  

mrshowrules: Fark It: mrshowrules: f you are going to go to the trouble of getting someones spent casings, why not steal their gun. Who things that far ahead honestly? We aren't all dealing with Bond super villains here.

Well, it's easier to report a gun stolen than it is to report spent brass stolen, for one. Number two, people don't discard their weapons at gun ranges and leave them there to be processed for scrap.

My position is that Conservatives should be proposing solutions to gun violence instead of Liberals. Their the ones that have a hard-on for guns.

Good thing I'm a liberal then.

More accurately then, people who are pro-gun, should come up with the strategy/rules to reduce gun violence.


Howzabout addressing poverty, bringing jobs back to the US and calling it quits on the drug war?
 
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