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(AZ Family)   Accused killer asks a judge for permission to represent himself in court, and then outlines his plans for an extensive defensive legal battle. "Your laws don't apply to me"   (azfamily.com) divider line 52
    More: Dumbass  
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7927 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Oct 2012 at 4:34 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-09 02:38:29 AM  
well, hi!

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2012-10-09 02:42:57 AM  
That sovereign citizen bullshiat doesn't fly for tax dodgers, I doubt it's going to work for a murderer.
 
2012-10-09 02:53:34 AM  
Is he going to trot out the "gold fringed flag" argument? That's always good for a laugh.
 
2012-10-09 03:07:19 AM  
Another sovereign citizen? Oh yes. please. Let him do this. Show the world what an stupid ass looks like!

Or better yet, appoint an attorney for him and tape the meetings. Those would have to be hilarious.
 
2012-10-09 03:34:54 AM  

SpikeStrip: well, hi!

[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x254]


I remember reading some of the court transcripts that were eventually made available. He was questioning one of the witnesses to his crime and asked her to point out the shooter. She pointed to him.

Oh to have been a fly on the wall when that happened. I would have loved to seen the look on his face when she and the other witnesses identified him as the shooter.
 
2012-10-09 04:38:52 AM  

elementalogic: Is he going to trot out the "gold fringed flag" argument? That's always good for a laugh.


Link

/I just want to see you smile
 
2012-10-09 04:39:34 AM  
Someone who represents themself in court has a fool for a client...

And I'm ok with this...
 
2012-10-09 04:42:24 AM  
arcanaseries.com
 
2012-10-09 04:48:22 AM  

Arcturus72: Someone who represents themself in court has a fool for a client...

And I'm ok with this...


Right, because the average person who hires the average attorney is so much smarter. In criminal courts, pro se defendants win slightly more often than those represented by counsel. I don't remember the exact figures but it's somewhere around 85% of pro se defendants lose while 90% of those represented by counsel lose. So, pretty much if you *have* to go to court, you're probably pretty foolish, and you've probably already lost.
 
2012-10-09 04:57:40 AM  

untaken_name: Arcturus72: Someone who represents themself in court has a fool for a client...

And I'm ok with this...

Right, because the average person who hires the average attorney is so much smarter. In criminal courts, pro se defendants win slightly more often than those represented by counsel. I don't remember the exact figures but it's somewhere around 85% of pro se defendants lose while 90% of those represented by counsel lose. So, pretty much if you *have* to go to court, you're probably pretty foolish, and you've probably already lost.


So, you're saying there's a chance....
 
2012-10-09 05:02:46 AM  
I think this man has a case. Didn't you guys listen? The laws don't apply to him. Case closed! Let's go get a beer.
 
2012-10-09 05:03:12 AM  
Clearly his cunning plan is to lay the groundwork for his coming appeal, based on the fact that his attorney is criminally incompetent...
 
2012-10-09 05:04:11 AM  
that sounds okay to me ..
 
2012-10-09 05:26:23 AM  
Now there's a real Objectivist.
 
2012-10-09 05:32:24 AM  
Just for the heck of, it would be interesting if God-forbid I'm ever in that situation and go:
"Your honor, as a Muslim, I demand to be tried under shariah law."

/will probably end up with a more severe punishment under shariah
 
2012-10-09 05:40:54 AM  

untaken_name: elementalogic: Is he going to trot out the "gold fringed flag" argument? That's always good for a laugh.

Link

/I just want to see you smile


Hogwash!

/it HAS to be satire
//HAS to be
 
2012-10-09 05:54:57 AM  

Resident Muslim: Just for the heck of, it would be interesting if God-forbid I'm ever in that situation and go:
"Your honor, as a Muslim, I demand to be tried under shariah law."

/will probably end up with a more severe punishment under shariah


It depends on who you killed. If it was a woman you'd probably get pat on the back and sent on your merry way.
 
2012-10-09 06:02:46 AM  

Neondistraction: Resident Muslim: Just for the heck of, it would be interesting if God-forbid I'm ever in that situation and go:
"Your honor, as a Muslim, I demand to be tried under shariah law."

/will probably end up with a more severe punishment under shariah

It depends on who you killed. If it was a woman you'd probably get pat on the back and sent on your merry way.


Only if you raped her first.
 
2012-10-09 06:21:21 AM  

untaken_name: Arcturus72: Someone who represents themself in court has a fool for a client...

And I'm ok with this...

Right, because the average person who hires the average attorney is so much smarter. In criminal courts, pro se defendants win slightly more often than those represented by counsel. I don't remember the exact figures but it's somewhere around 85% of pro se defendants lose while 90% of those represented by counsel lose. So, pretty much if you *have* to go to court, you're probably pretty foolish, and you've probably already lost.


The ONLY winners in court are the lawyers... I've used that in many cases, including our "Leadership training" in the navy, talking about "win-win", "win-lose", "lose-win" and "lose-lose" scenarios... Court is the only "Lose-lose" scenario that I know where my first sentence is true...
 
2012-10-09 06:25:01 AM  
Cool. Take him out back of the courthouse and put a bullet in his head.

After all, the laws don't apply to him, and that includes the whole "No person shall be . . . deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law" bit, right?
 
2012-10-09 06:51:55 AM  

James F. Campbell: Now there's a real Objectivist.


The Gaultian heroic-tragic (stupidic) icon for the New American Century.
 
2012-10-09 06:52:34 AM  

Arcturus72: The ONLY winners in court are the lawyers


Hear, hear.
 
2012-10-09 06:54:27 AM  
I am reminded of the prophetic words of Monty Python in the "Oliver Cromwell Song".

"Charles was sentenced to death, even though he refused to accept that the court had jurisdiction."
"Say goodbye to his head"
 
2012-10-09 07:29:44 AM  
That is a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out objection.

Overruled.
 
2012-10-09 07:35:16 AM  
....and as soon as those words left his mouth he should have been shot in the face with a large caliber handgun.

If our laws do not apply to him, neither does the responsibility to keep him alive.
 
2012-10-09 07:41:39 AM  

gothelder: ....and as soon as those words left his mouth he should have been shot in the face with a large caliber handgun.

If our laws do not apply to him, neither does the responsibility to keep him alive.


So you think that "not murdering people" is equated to the "responsibility to keep others alive" (as if some bullshiat like this exists).

Okay. So many people loudly voicing their murder fantasies these days. Just grab a gun and do it, man.
 
2012-10-09 07:47:04 AM  

untaken_name: Arcturus72: Someone who represents themself in court has a fool for a client...

And I'm ok with this...

Right, because the average person who hires the average attorney is so much smarter. In criminal courts, pro se defendants win slightly more often than those represented by counsel. I don't remember the exact figures but it's somewhere around 85% of pro se defendants lose while 90% of those represented by counsel lose. So, pretty much if you *have* to go to court, you're probably pretty foolish, and you've probably already lost.


You don't remember the statistic that you just made up?

I have a sovereign citizen trying to go pro se right now. He started off by proclaiming that he was in court by way of a special appearance (meaning he is contesting in personum jurisdiction) and would accept the charges for value (strawman defense). The Judge stepped him back rather than releasing him on bond, so he isn't doing too well so far. Looking forward to the notices of Common Law Copyright infringement.
 
2012-10-09 07:48:12 AM  

IAAl: untaken_name: Arcturus72: Someone who represents themself in court has a fool for a client...

And I'm ok with this...

Right, because the average person who hires the average attorney is so much smarter. In criminal courts, pro se defendants win slightly more often than those represented by counsel. I don't remember the exact figures but it's somewhere around 85% of pro se defendants lose while 90% of those represented by counsel lose. So, pretty much if you *have* to go to court, you're probably pretty foolish, and you've probably already lost.

You don't remember the statistic that you just made up?

I have a sovereign citizen trying to go pro se right now. He started off by proclaiming that he was in court by way of a special appearance (meaning he is contesting in personum jurisdiction) and would accept the charges for value (strawman defense). The Judge stepped him back rather than releasing him on bond, so he isn't doing too well so far. Looking forward to the notices of Common Law Copyright infringement.


I'm not sure a sovereign citizen's defence would succeed no matter who was representing the deluded fool.
 
2012-10-09 08:05:46 AM  

Todays'sStar Equation:

Arizona = West Florida


Questions?
 
2012-10-09 08:09:14 AM  
"Sir, I believe I have always acted as my own attorney," the raspy-voiced, 32-year-old ex-con lectured Judge Warren Granville on Monday.

Raspy-voiced? Did he start singing a soul tune then?
 
2012-10-09 08:09:36 AM  

IAAl: You don't remember the statistic that you just made up?


If I had made it up, I would have remembered it. Durr. No, really, I trust an attorney to be honest on this issue, just like I trust a car salesman to be honest about loans.
 
2012-10-09 08:13:23 AM  
It has been years since I looked into it. But I thought that no one has been charged with tax evasion after claiming sovereign citizen. It doesn't work for the average American who works for someone else, because employers withhold taxes. It is a pretty extreme course of action but I didn't think there were holes in it.

In this case, a foreign national can't enter the United States and kill someone. Try him both as a citizen and then again with the premise he is not a citizen.
 
2012-10-09 08:16:18 AM  

Verzio: Cool. Take him out back of the courthouse and put a bullet in his head.

After all, the laws don't apply to him, and that includes the whole "No person shall be . . . deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law" bit, right?


This.
 
2012-10-09 08:16:40 AM  
your puny human rules do not apply to General Zod
 
2012-10-09 08:22:33 AM  
"your laws don't apply to me"??

I thought the correct line was "these are not the droids you are looking for"
 
2012-10-09 08:29:02 AM  

untaken_name: elementalogic: Is he going to trot out the "gold fringed flag" argument? That's always good for a laugh.

Link

/I just want to see you smile


FTFFR: This whole subject is the perview of militia nutcases. It gets discussed at length by people who had traumatic toilet training episodes.
 
2012-10-09 08:36:02 AM  
i406.photobucket.com
 
2012-10-09 08:36:46 AM  
Any of you guys hear from Skinnyhead lately?
 
2012-10-09 08:38:59 AM  

Arcturus72: The ONLY winners in court are the lawyers... I've used that in many cases, including our "Leadership training" in the navy, talking about "win-win", "win-lose", "lose-win" and "lose-lose" scenarios... Court is the only "Lose-lose" scenario that I know where my first sentence is true...


Yeah, until you get farked over by someone much more powerful than yourself. Then what are you going to do? Vigilante justice? Reason with them? Plead? Blackmail?

Imperfect as they are, courts exist for a good reason.
 
2012-10-09 08:46:05 AM  
Lightning bolts surprisingly absent in photo
 
2012-10-09 08:59:03 AM  

untaken_name: Arcturus72: Someone who represents themself in court has a fool for a client...

And I'm ok with this...

Right, because the average person who hires the average attorney is so much smarter. In criminal courts, pro se defendants win slightly more often than those represented by counsel. I don't remember the exact figures but it's somewhere around 85% of pro se defendants lose while 90% of those represented by counsel lose. So, pretty much if you *have* to go to court, you're probably pretty foolish, and you've probably already lost.


What crimes are they going pro se on? If these stats are weighted equally across all crimes, then maybe you've got something. My suspicion is that if you're seeing slightly more people win pro se, it's because they are, by and large, contesting traffic tickets and other minor charges. Procedural issues (cop doesn't show) happen slightly more often there. Since you aren't even provided an attorney unless you're facing jail time, it stands to reason that there are a lot more pro se defendants for minor charges. Someone is much more likely to say "well sure, I think I need a lawyer" when they're brought up on federal arson charges instead of running a stop sign.
 
2012-10-09 09:12:22 AM  

indylaw: Arcturus72: The ONLY winners in court are the lawyers... I've used that in many cases, including our "Leadership training" in the navy, talking about "win-win", "win-lose", "lose-win" and "lose-lose" scenarios... Court is the only "Lose-lose" scenario that I know where my first sentence is true...

Yeah, until you get farked over by someone much more powerful than yourself. Then what are you going to do? Vigilante justice? Reason with them? Plead? Blackmail?

Imperfect as they are, courts exist for a good reason.


Doesn't mean they're not lose-lose. Sometimes it's worth it to hurt yourself to hurt somebody else even more.

cf. any victim of rape who presses charges.
 
2012-10-09 09:43:10 AM  
This is the guy from the Arizona double-homicide a while back, where a doctor and teacher husband and wife were found burned in their house after their car was found burning out in the desert. This guy apparently has a laundry list of charges and had been found to be incompetent in at least one previous case (although not this one).

I think everybody else who was involved with this has already pleaded guilty to various charges like tampering with evidence or using stolen credit cards - supposedly this is the guy who actually did the deed. See "Deaths of Lawrence and Glenna Shapiro" for more information.
 
2012-10-09 11:06:29 AM  
Our laws may not apply to him, but the death penalty will.
 
2012-10-09 12:14:45 PM  

untaken_name: IAAl: You don't remember the statistic that you just made up?

If I had made it up, I would have remembered it. Durr. No, really, I trust an attorney to be honest on this issue, just like I trust a car salesman to be honest about loans.


My point exactly, durr. Attorneys are no more or less honest than anyone else. Don't confuse ethics and morals.
 
2012-10-09 01:02:25 PM  

red_dragon60: untaken_name: Arcturus72: Someone who represents themself in court has a fool for a client...

And I'm ok with this...

Right, because the average person who hires the average attorney is so much smarter. In criminal courts, pro se defendants win slightly more often than those represented by counsel. I don't remember the exact figures but it's somewhere around 85% of pro se defendants lose while 90% of those represented by counsel lose. So, pretty much if you *have* to go to court, you're probably pretty foolish, and you've probably already lost.

What crimes are they going pro se on? If these stats are weighted equally across all crimes, then maybe you've got something. My suspicion is that if you're seeing slightly more people win pro se, it's because they are, by and large, contesting traffic tickets and other minor charges. Procedural issues (cop doesn't show) happen slightly more often there. Since you aren't even provided an attorney unless you're facing jail time, it stands to reason that there are a lot more pro se defendants for minor charges. Someone is much more likely to say "well sure, I think I need a lawyer" when they're brought up on federal arson charges instead of running a stop sign.


That was my first instinct too, but FWIW the little research that has been done on this point suggests otherwise.

This link has a section on the research: http://www.jaapl.org/content/36/4/551.full
 
2012-10-09 01:19:44 PM  
Michael Lee Crane

OFFS - One more time, parents: when you give your boy the middle name "Lee" or "Wayne" you are only feeding the prison system.

SpaceyCat: Another sovereign citizen?


I don't think he's claiming laws don't apply to him because "sovereign citizen".

I think he's simply a sociopath.

And the judge will appoint an attorney to save the taxpayers the expense of the inevitable mistrial or "inadequate representation" appeal of this psycho's death sentence.
 
2012-10-09 02:24:41 PM  

phyrkrakr: This is the guy from the Arizona double-homicide a while back, where a doctor and teacher husband and wife were found burned in their house after their car was found burning out in the desert. This guy apparently has a laundry list of charges and had been found to be incompetent in at least one previous case (although not this one).

I think everybody else who was involved with this has already pleaded guilty to various charges like tampering with evidence or using stolen credit cards - supposedly this is the guy who actually did the deed. See "Deaths of Lawrence and Glenna Shapiro" for more information.


And, they were all tweekers. Surprise, surprise.
 
2012-10-09 02:41:12 PM  
"Your laws don't apply to me"

So, he's rich then?
 
2012-10-09 03:16:23 PM  
Fark has Birthers, Truthers, Young-Earthers, and people to represent just about every crackpot conspiracy theory. How come we don't have any Sovereign-ers kicking around to beat up on when these threads come up? It's most depressing.

Come on, Fark, let's get some ads going on some Militia sites or something.
 
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