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(Orlando Sentinel)   Olive Garden says, gosh, I guess we'll just have to shoulder the new Obamacare costs in this crappy economy. Just kidding, they want to make all their workers part time   (articles.orlandosentinel.com) divider line 269
    More: Obvious, obamacare  
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3345 clicks; posted to Politics » on 08 Oct 2012 at 11:41 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-09 02:09:48 AM  

Mikey1969: Applebee's was the most soul-sucking place I ever worked. They claimed they really cared, they told you over and over and over when you worked there, but they didn't give two squirts about you.


I quit Ruby Tuesday's after I saw a piece of paper the manager was filling out. This was an actual form from the corporate office. It listed the number of cooks, servers, hostesses, busboys, etc. needed for each and every meal, then, at the bottom, it said,

"TOTAL NUMBER OF WARM BODIES NEEDED FOR EACH SHIFT".

That's all we were to the corporate office - a warm body necessary to make all the "efficiency" studies pan out. Never mind how good at their job anyone was, as long as the manager had the requisite number of "warm bodies", then corporate should be seeing the money flowing in. Sure, maybe someone creating the form had a sense of humor, but the fact was, it wasn't funny because that's how they actually felt.
 
2012-10-09 02:10:36 AM  
Olive Garden:

If you can't get your sh*t together in the accounting department to provide for a full time staff at your various franchises nationwide?

You shouldn't be in business. Period.

End of story.
 
2012-10-09 02:11:06 AM  

Mikey1969: On the other hand, I made some of my highest tips ever that night. Pity tips pay a great percentage.


No kidding. Try taking a baby around with you to your tables. I made bank that night.
 
2012-10-09 02:11:35 AM  
As a Hawaii resident and former state employee, this doesn't surprise me in the least.

Everyone knows Hawaii's had a great healthcare law since the 1970s. Every employer is required to offer health insurance (not for free or anything, but on some terms) to every employee who works more than half-time. So, sure enough, there are tons of people averaging 19.5 hours a week or less. Including state employees. Basically this goes on until you can get some job, any job, working more than 20 hours a week.
 
2012-10-09 02:13:25 AM  

Elandriel: BarkingUnicorn: I've been expecting this move.

But why is it legal for Darden to require a cut of servers' tips?

Making them share tips with the bartenders, who had their pay cut.

That said, given the anecdote of one person saying "Fine, I will work somewhere else", this is probably going to backfire on them as they acquire a reputation for being more concerned about costs than employees and offering a less beneficial package to people seeking work.

But hey more power to them, hand of the free market and all that.


What? Really? With all the unemployed ready to step into any opening? And if not them, then I'm pretty sure that they could hire a bunch of "undocumented workers" to fill in.

Anyone who didn't see this coming was smoking the wacky tabacy..
 
2012-10-09 02:15:27 AM  

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Elandriel: BarkingUnicorn: I've been expecting this move.

But why is it legal for Darden to require a cut of servers' tips?

Making them share tips with the bartenders, who had their pay cut.

That said, given the anecdote of one person saying "Fine, I will work somewhere else", this is probably going to backfire on them as they acquire a reputation for being more concerned about costs than employees and offering a less beneficial package to people seeking work.

But hey more power to them, hand of the free market and all that.

What? Really? With all the unemployed ready to step into any opening? And if not them, then I'm pretty sure that they could hire a bunch of "undocumented workers" to fill in.

Anyone who didn't see this coming was smoking the wacky tabacy..


I can't wait until the Republicans start clamoring for the repeal of the minimum wage. This will be extremely lulzy.
 
2012-10-09 02:17:53 AM  

MoonPirate: I know nothing of business but isn't the largest cost of a restaurant payroll?


The largest below-the-line cost (i.e.: excluding cost of goods and raw materials) of almost ANY business is payroll.

/accountant for 40 years
 
2012-10-09 02:21:05 AM  

whidbey: I can't wait until the Republicans start clamoring for the repeal of the minimum wage. This will be extremely lulzy.


Wait no longer. Haven't you read this year's official party platform?

No, the link doesn't go to an Onion article. The Republican Party officially declared their support this year for the abolition of minimum wage for some American citizens working in the United States.
 
2012-10-09 02:21:24 AM  

ox45tallboy: davidphogan: I hadn't thought of that... Euwww.

Why not an ad campaign by one of their competitors?

(OPEN SCENE)

Server is coughing and sneezing into their white, button-down starched shirt, then wiping their face with the long apron.
(VOICEOVER)
AT SOME RESTAURANTS, THEY DENY THEIR EMPLOYEES BASIC RIGHTS LIKE HEALTH CARE

(CUT TO KITCHEN IN SAME RESTAURANT)
Cook in chef's hat is coughing while stirring white clam chowder

(CUT TO SMILING HAPPY SERVERS IN SOLID-COLORED POLO SHIRTS)

(VOICEOVER)
AT APPLEBEE'S WE TAKE PRIDE IN PROVIDING THE BEST HEALTH CARE IN THE INDUSTRY FOR OUR BEST RESOURCE - OUR PEOPLE!

(CUT TO ATTRACTIVE BLONDE SERVER IN APPLEBEE'S UNIFORM AND MINISKIRT)

(VOICEOVER)
OUR EMPLOYEES ARE EVEN REGULARLY TESTED FOR STD'S, SO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE BRINGING HOME!

(CUT BACK TO ATTRACTIVE BLONDE SERVER DELIVERING LARGE STEAK WITH SIDE ITEMS, THEN CLOSE-UP OF ATTRACTIVE BLONDE)

(CUT TO CLOSEUP OF PASTA WITH BREADSTICKS, SLOW PAN BACK TO SERVERS FACE IN OLIVE GARDEN UNIFORM IMMEDIATELY ABOVE IT, COMPLETE WITH COLD SORE, SMILING, THEN COUGHING ONTO FOOD)
Is there anything else I can... give you?

(QUICK CUT TO BLACK)


Nasty.

I like it.
 
2012-10-09 02:25:08 AM  

ox45tallboy: whidbey: I can't wait until the Republicans start clamoring for the repeal of the minimum wage. This will be extremely lulzy.

Wait no longer. Haven't you read this year's official party platform?

No, the link doesn't go to an Onion article. The Republican Party officially declared their support this year for the abolition of minimum wage for some American citizens working in the United States.


Well I'm sure that's got you tickled pink. After all, it's been what you've wanted for years?
 
2012-10-09 02:27:53 AM  

ox45tallboy: whidbey: I can't wait until the Republicans start clamoring for the repeal of the minimum wage. This will be extremely lulzy.

Wait no longer. Haven't you read this year's official party platform?

No, the link doesn't go to an Onion article. The Republican Party officially declared their support this year for the abolition of minimum wage for some American citizens working in the United States.


And oh geez, it's time to go to bed as I have clearly confused you for someone with a slightly similar login. I actually tend to agree with what you post, pls disregard snark.
 
2012-10-09 02:32:05 AM  

whidbey: And oh geez, it's time to go to bed as I have clearly confused you for someone with a slightly similar login. I actually tend to agree with what you post, pls disregard snark.


Damn it, I had a snarky retort all thought out. And an evil thingy to go in your Farkie.
 
2012-10-09 02:35:42 AM  

ox45tallboy: t. And an evil thingy to go in your Farkie.


*makes badge*

WHIDBEY'S NOT REALLY A LIBERAL, HE OUTED HIMSELF IN 7370822
NEVAR FORGET

It's all good, ox45tallboy. Just never let it happen again. ;)
 
2012-10-09 02:38:57 AM  

whidbey: It's all good, ox45tallboy. Just never let it happen again. ;)


I hereby award you 1 (one) Alan Simpson.

i.ytimg.com
 
2012-10-09 02:39:30 AM  

ox45tallboy: I quit Ruby Tuesday's after I saw a piece of paper the manager was filling out. This was an actual form from the corporate office. It listed the number of cooks, servers, hostesses, busboys, etc. needed for each and every meal, then, at the bottom, it said,


It sounds petty to worry about, but the biggest thing I saw was a disregard for employee property. We had a pretty bad run of bikes/parts getting stolen, probably a year straight that was really bad. We actually had a bike rack in the back by our dumpster and an 8 ft tall block wall with an always-locked gate. I lost 2 1/2 bikes there(Once they stole the seat and rear wheel because I locked it up like a moron). I was just one of the employees getting bikes stolen at the rate of 1 or 2 a week. Someone was climbing this wall with a partner and stealing these. For many of us, it was our sole mode of transportation. After the last time, I mentioned something to the manager, since it kept happening, and they were breaking into the property to do it. His answer was 'Yeah? What do you want me to do about it?'. I finally actually wrote a letter to the head office that owned our franchise group, and to my surprise they told our manager to buy me the replacement wheel, hub and seat/post, but it didn't happen for anyone else, and security was not increased in any way. I also got in trouble with the managers for going to corporate because "they were going to make sure and buy what I needed", even though they had made no statements to that effect after 2 weeks.

My stepson works as a food runner at Texas Roadhouse, but I ask him about his job all of the time, and make sure to explain what he doesn't have to put up with. I also explain to him that work is hard, and not always fun but there is certain bullshiat that he doesn't have to put up with. I hope he learns from it. Nobody did that for me, they just sent me off to work, with the exception of one place that wanted me to work back to back close/open shifts of 6-8 hours each on Christmas Eve and Christmas, really leaving no time for Xmas until something like 8 pm that night. Manager told me that I was SOL and had to work. My foster parents were NOT impressed. I came in one day, the manager told me that I had both shifts free(Still had a job, BTW), and that I had better tell me "dad" that he was getting a Christmas present from the manager personally, and shouldn't expect another. As a result of pissed off people, the place was closed both Christmas Eve and Christmas day... :-)

We might think our working lives suck now, but it's nothing like back in the day when we were working our first jobs, that's for sure...
 
2012-10-09 02:50:30 AM  

ox45tallboy: Mikey1969: On the other hand, I made some of my highest tips ever that night. Pity tips pay a great percentage.

No kidding. Try taking a baby around with you to your tables. I made bank that night.


And my daughter is not only cute and precocious, she's 40 lbs. of energy in a 5 lb bag. I bet they'd double.

I think I made something like $150 in 3 hours once AND got free hockey tickets(NHL, not some minor legue team), but that was waiting tables for an hour and working two simultaneous banquets... Would have LOVED to do banquet as my full time gig. Much better job, no shiatty crap because they want you to stay clean. Sidework is minimal. I got paid more money(Maybe ven the real minimum wage), people are friendly ad there to party, the things have a set start and stop sigh, and tips are known from the beginning, based on the bill, plus everyone shares the bar tips, especially when it's the kind of crew where anyone will step in and pour a drink or two if the bartender is away Add a tip jar to the bar(Not always allowed), and that's when you roll with some bank. Bonus is that you never end up in the weeds; either it's a plated dinner, and everyone has 3 or 4 meals to choose form, or it's a buffet. Either way, your night is mostly comprised of keeping the water pitcher full, clearing empty plates, resolving issues with the void, and getting booze refills. Strangely, tips suck ass when it's an open bar. I would always 'seed' the tip jar with $5 or so worth of money so people didn't just seem empty pitcher sitting there. They also didn't want to look like cheap pricks. Psychology works in serving all of the time.
 
2012-10-09 02:51:42 AM  

Mikey1969: We might think our working lives suck now, but it's nothing like back in the day when we were working our first jobs, that's for sure...


Good point.
 
2012-10-09 04:10:46 AM  
Lot of people suddenly think they're Henry Ford when they see consequences they don't like.
 
2012-10-09 04:16:49 AM  

ox45tallboy: Hey, this works for Wal-Mart!

My sister is part time, but has worked less than 40 hours precisely three times since she got the job. But she doesn't get benefits, because it is a "part-time position". The screwy thing is when they make the employees show up at 10 PM on Friday nights, count them tardy if they are late, but do not allow them to clock in and begin work until they have waited the amount of time they have been asked to "work over" throughout the week. For instance, if lots of stuff needs to be done Tuesday morning, a manager might ask her to stay an hour late to help out. If she does, then she won't be allowed to clock in until an hour after her scheduled time on Friday. However, she is expected to "report in" at her scheduled time, and then she can go do whatever she wants (including leaving the area if she has a car, otherwise hanging out in the parking lot with all the unsavory characters you find in a Wal-Mart parking lot at 10:30 on Friday nights) until the hour is up. Can't have anyone getting overtime they were asked to work!

Since their army of lawyers has so far kept the labor-based lawsuits at bay (including reports of locking employees in the store), they're setting precedent for many other cases, and many other businesses to take on this same way of treating their employees. After all, when someone complains, you fire the offending manager, and then put someone else in their place that is forced to make the same unrealistic goals through whatever means necessary.


Yep. Now that they've turned the populace against unions (hey, we have laws that protect workers now!), they're slowly making inroads to repeal the very laws that protect workers that unions were made for in the first place.
 
2012-10-09 04:18:55 AM  
ox45tallboy:

Oh, and where is Rick Perry in your little montage?
 
2012-10-09 04:35:39 AM  

IlGreven: Oh, and where is Rick Perry in your little montage?


static.guim.co.uk
"Please."
 
2012-10-09 05:03:11 AM  

Elandriel: BarkingUnicorn: I've been expecting this move.

But why is it legal for Darden to require a cut of servers' tips?

Making them share tips with the bartenders, who had their pay cut.

That said, given the anecdote of one person saying "Fine, I will work somewhere else", this is probably going to backfire on them as they acquire a reputation for being more concerned about costs than employees and offering a less beneficial package to people seeking work.

But hey more power to them, hand of the free market and all that.


This seems to be a point of confusion for many Farkers. Businesses are started to make a profit. Otherwise, they would be called a charity. Their primary concern IS profit making...not charity to employees.
 
2012-10-09 05:17:48 AM  

Silly Jesus: This seems to be a point of confusion for many Farkers. Businesses are started to make a profit. Otherwise, they would be called a charity. Their primary concern IS profit making...not charity to employees.


McDonald's doesn't sell billions and billions of hamburgers because everyone thinks their cashier is adding to her 401K.
 
2012-10-09 07:31:22 AM  
Olive Garden is in the business of making a profit.
 
2012-10-09 07:37:06 AM  

Teufelaffe: ox45tallboy: Hey, this works for Wal-Mart!

My sister is part time, but has worked less than 40 hours precisely three times since she got the job. But she doesn't get benefits, because it is a "part-time position". The screwy thing is when they make the employees show up at 10 PM on Friday nights, count them tardy if they are late, but do not allow them to clock in and begin work until they have waited the amount of time they have been asked to "work over" throughout the week. For instance, if lots of stuff needs to be done Tuesday morning, a manager might ask her to stay an hour late to help out. If she does, then she won't be allowed to clock in until an hour after her scheduled time on Friday. However, she is expected to "report in" at her scheduled time, and then she can go do whatever she wants (including leaving the area if she has a car, otherwise hanging out in the parking lot with all the unsavory characters you find in a Wal-Mart parking lot at 10:30 on Friday nights) until the hour is up. Can't have anyone getting overtime they were asked to work!

Since their army of lawyers has so far kept the labor-based lawsuits at bay (including reports of locking employees in the store), they're setting precedent for many other cases, and many other businesses to take on this same way of treating their employees. After all, when someone complains, you fire the offending manager, and then put someone else in their place that is forced to make the same unrealistic goals through whatever means necessary.

Doesn't surprise me at all. Some years ago, when doing an article on work conditions at WalMart, a journalist did the math and pointed out to their WalMart contact that giving every employee in the company a $1/hr raise would be great for morale, resulting in more productive workers, and would only cut their annual profits by 2%. The WalMart talking head said that 2% was too much of a "loss."


It's not just Wal-Mart. Hospitals across the country are doing that too. One woman I know works 40 hours a week at the hospital ... in two different departments. For 20 hours a week, she's in one ward, for the other 20, she's in some sort of billing. It's payroll MAGIC!
 
2012-10-09 07:40:56 AM  

itsdan: In Massachusetts under RomneyCare many of the penalties are assessed per full-time equivalent. So two workers working part time doing the same job count as a full time position. So if the cut off is 50 employees before the mandates for coverage kick in you could in theory have 100 part time workers and then have the mandates apply, but you can't just make everyone part time without limit and get away with it. Seems fair.

Also, you're allowed to pay them what like $2/hr as servers and you still can't afford a cheap plan that just barely meets the coverage requirements?


I worked at a Red Lobster. They have the servers do everything but main chef. Servers bus tables, prep salads and clean the restraunt, all for 2 dollars an hour. It is the worst place I ever worked and only a fool would choose to work there. The world is full of fools.
 
2012-10-09 07:44:03 AM  

ox45tallboy: (VOICEOVER)
OUR EMPLOYEES ARE EVEN REGULARLY TESTED FOR STD'S, SO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE BRINGING HOME!


Awesome, though I think the STD line MIGHT be a bit too far.
 
2012-10-09 08:02:17 AM  

Brick-House: You know they could have just passed a couple of small bills for pre-existing conditions, did a little tort reform and made the American people happy. But noooooooo, they had to fark it all up.


If that was good enough, then why the F didn't the Republicans get around to that any point between 2001 and 2006, when they had full majorities in both chambers of Congress and the White House. Hell, why didn't they from 1995-2000 (Clinton would have signed it)?

Because the GOP doesn't give a shiat about people, that's why.
 
2012-10-09 08:21:57 AM  
My only wish is that I could somehow do more to keep Olive Garden from making money aside from my never going there. It's farking pasta, people. If you can master boiling water, you can make most of the Olive Garden cuisine.
 
2012-10-09 08:40:31 AM  

penthesilea: Here's a 24 page pdf on how Olive Garden treats their staff as badly as Walmart workers. -PDF-

And then there's this:
Olive Garden, Red Lobster, Capital Grille Poor Working Conditions Creating Investor Liability
Olive Garden is already directly connected to a Hepatitis A incident, in which a class action lawsuit was filed against Darden for fostering the conditions that endangered thousands of people. Without timely corrective action, major and potentially irreparable brand damage may follow. Advocacy groups are increasingly bringing attention to public health incidents linked with the lack of paid sick days and low wages, which do not allow workers to take a day off when sick; the Olive Garden Hepatitis scare underscores how disastrous that practice can be.

My sister works for Olive Garden. If she asks for the day off because she's really sick they tell her no. They'll fire her. She tries to wash her hands as much as possible to keep from passing colds/illness to the customers, but that takes time and management get pissed if the staff isn't moving things along as quickly as possible.


And a wave and goodbye to those farking establishments!
 
2012-10-09 08:42:05 AM  

EyeballKid: My only wish is that I could somehow do more to keep Olive Garden from making money aside from my never going there. It's farking pasta, people. If you can master boiling water, you can make most of the Olive Garden cuisine.


Give them some credit. Microwaves take a little while to master.
 
2012-10-09 08:46:55 AM  
This is a business. Businesses exist to make a profit. Businesses adapt to laws and regulations in order to continue making a profit. Everyone knows businesses do this sort of thing.

Why the surprise? Why the outrage?
 
2012-10-09 08:57:56 AM  
This was ALREADY happening, and they are just using health care reform to conveniently blame something other than their greed. A friend of mine worked as a bartender for Olive Garden for over ten years, and two years ago, they told all of the bartenders that they were cutting their pay by half, and most of their benefits. On TOP of this, he said, they increased the prices on their menu by a huge percentage. He said that many of the bartenders tried to strike, but then they were just plain fired. He quit a few weeks later because he couldn't believe that he and his fellow workers were being treated so poorly after all their years of service.

fark you, Olive Garden, fark you with a un-oiled breadstick.
 
2012-10-09 09:02:35 AM  
Well, that's what Romney does with HIS help, and that's without Obamacare! So maybe there's something else afoot, hmmm?
 
2012-10-09 09:03:59 AM  

GoldSpider: This is a business. Businesses exist to make a profit. Businesses adapt to laws and regulations in order to continue making a profit. Everyone knows businesses do this sort of thing.

Why the surprise? Why the outrage?


Business balance profit and worker benefits and public relations all the time, the attitude that it is fine for them to treat their workers poorly in the name of capitalism is a win for their public relations department I guess. The many people with your attitude means they don't have to worry about treating their workers poorly out of fear of losing your business.
 
2012-10-09 09:05:03 AM  
Reminds me of Scumbag John Schnatter of Papa John's: claims pizzas will have to cost 15 cents more 'cos of Obamacare, gives away 2 million pizzas.
 
2012-10-09 09:06:02 AM  
The funny thing about it too is the people who are fine with these mega corps treating their workers like shiat often call themselves libertarian, you know, the guys who think the consumer will protect the environment and the labor force through informed purchases?
 
2012-10-09 09:10:07 AM  
And this is one of the many reasons I dislike chain restaurants. I am a bit of a 'foodie', and a former restaurant/catering worker.

I've been lucky to have always worked at independent restaurants, so I've never really dealt with that sort of horrible culture. Not to say that restaurant managers aren't usually insane, but at least with a private/family owned restaurant you can punch them in the balls and then justify it to the owner later.

Go to independent restaurants. Find a place you like and become a regular. It's pretty awesome for the ego when you see the looks on the other diners' faces when the chef sends out some special creation just for you. Or when the owner comes and sits with you. It's almost like actually being important.

The food will be better in almost all cases, and they will be more responsive to feedback. Granted, it's not always good, but that's part of the risk/fun of eating somewhere new.

For those of us with the luxury of eating out often, you'll get far more bang for your buck at an indie than you will at a chain.

For those who don't go out except on special occasions, do you really want to treat your loved one to the equivalent of a frozen TV dinner?
 
2012-10-09 09:20:57 AM  
If you are a worker you have nothing in common with businesses, managers or owners. They want your labor at the cheapest possible cost. This is exploitation. "But hey FarkedOver, you don't have to work there! You can work where ever you want!" Ahhhh yes you can but every other place you may work is doing the same thing in terms of undercutting you. That's capitalism, it's exploitative. That is it's very nature. So if you work for a living, unionize. As a worker, your only means of redress are the strike and there are strength in numbers!
 
2012-10-09 09:27:28 AM  

Headso: The many people with your attitude means they don't have to worry about treating their workers poorly out of fear of losing your business.


It means no such thing. I can still decide it's a crappy thing for the business to do and decide not to give them business. Workers can also decide not to work there anymore, which exposes the business to the risks associated with training new (and potentially less quality) hires.

I just don't get why people are surprised when businesses do things that they perceive to be in their best self interests.
 
2012-10-09 09:32:47 AM  

PirateKing: Go to independent restaurants. Find a place you like and become a regular. It's pretty awesome for the ego when you see the looks on the other diners' faces when the chef sends out some special creation just for you. Or when the owner comes and sits with you. It's almost like actually being important.

The food will be better in almost all cases, and they will be more responsive to feedback. Granted, it's not always good, but that's part of the risk/fun of eating somewhere new.


This. Make yourself a more informed consumer and support the local economy at the same time.
 
2012-10-09 09:39:21 AM  
If the US gov't was showed even a little responsibility to the electorate, they would have unhooked healthcare from employment decades ago.
 
2012-10-09 09:41:48 AM  

Mercutio74: If the US gov't was showed even a little responsibility to the electorate, they would have unhooked healthcare from employment decades ago.


That too. Expand Medicare coverage to everyone, and BAM, you've got your national healthcare plan.
 
2012-10-09 09:42:17 AM  

Mercutio74: If the US gov't was showed even a little responsibility to the electorate, they would have unhooked healthcare from employment decades ago.


But then people wouldn't be tied down to jobs they didn't want and .... that's... bad?
 
2012-10-09 09:42:20 AM  
Olive Garden should be taken over by the government for being unpatriotic.
 
2012-10-09 09:47:43 AM  

ManRay: Olive Garden should be taken over

/ftfy

 
2012-10-09 09:48:29 AM  
This is not all bad news. For instance, under the new plan you can take your unlimited salad bowl with you even if you change doctors. Also the breadsticks can live with you until they're 26, and your bill is covered even if you have a preexisting pasta.
 
2012-10-09 09:48:40 AM  

ManRay: Olive Garden should be taken over condemnedby the government for being unpatriotic unsanitary.


/ftfy
/and me
/oops
 
2012-10-09 09:53:47 AM  

FarkedOver: Mercutio74: If the US gov't was showed even a little responsibility to the electorate, they would have unhooked healthcare from employment decades ago.

But then people wouldn't be tied down to jobs they didn't want and .... that's... bad?


For corporate America, yes. If you have the freedom to say "fark you, I'm quitting to work on my Etsy store full-time" without fear of getting sick and not being insured, a lot of worker bees would be lost.

When labor participation goes down, unemployment goes down and wages go up. This is what Republicans want to avoid for their donors.
 
2012-10-09 10:43:45 AM  

randomjsa: So basically what you're saying, as liberals is... "Okay Conservatives, you were right, and we were liars or fools to actually say that ObamaCare would save businesses so much money!"

At some point you're just going to have to admit that conservatives were right about everything on ObamaCare... because so far we've been 100% correct.


Well, I see you've made some statements. Of course there isn't a shred of real evidence to support whatever type of point you are attempting to make.

But that's cool, since it seems to be working OK for the Romney campaign.
 
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