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(Salon)   Two can play at that game: Why, I, a lifelong Republican, am voting for Obama   (salon.com) divider line 160
    More: Interesting, President Obama, Republican, Larry Pressler, congresses, Chuck Hagel, Salon  
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4213 clicks; posted to Politics » on 09 Oct 2012 at 12:26 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-09 02:39:32 AM  

Mitt Romneys Tax Return: The bottom line, though, is that you have no objective rationale for your belief, whereas many posters in this thread have provided example after example of Obama's moderate record.


I thought that I had. Let me reiterate.

Of all the various agendas that could have been enacted by a President, given the same circumstances that President Obama had, Obama has consistently chosen the most liberal option available.

There are some exceptions. Obama had room to go further left on civil rights, if he so desired. Drone policy too.

But on taxes? Social policy? The scope of government? He's consistently opted for the most liberal agenda that was capable of passing Congress.

So, I guess you're the only one who truly understands the real Barack Obama, secret liberal.

There are hundreds of elected liberals in the Congress. The difference between them and Obama is circumstance.
 
2012-10-09 02:41:48 AM  

Captain Dan: whidbey: I have a huge problem with someone who doesn't even support Obama telling us liberals how he supposedly "really" acts politically. Nothing quite screams "concerned."

You have a problem with someone politically disagreeing with you? That's a bigger problem than I can solve.


Not even mad. Just pointing out that you obviously can't stand the fact that the Obama administration will receive credit for supporting gay marriage that you have to concoct some series of events that somehow proves otherwise.

Petty, transparent bullsh*t.

I'm voting for Romney because I think he's better suited for the job,

Well, he isn't. He's whatever the Republican party stuffs into his mouth, he doesn't care a rip about the poor, and he wants to waste a bunch of money teaching Iran a lesson in American hegimony.

You're voting for the continued downfall of this country both economically and morally. Honestly, I wouldn't even be bragging.
 
2012-10-09 02:45:29 AM  

tenpoundsofcheese: FTA: the veterans are offended by Romney.

Reality: Military favors Romney 2:1

oopsie.

explains the shenanigans about getting ballots to the military.


I'm really not going to miss you after you slither away on November 7th when Obama wins big on the 6th.
 
2012-10-09 02:47:28 AM  

existentist: Veteran. Voting Obama again. Won't matter though. I'm in Texas.


Take heart in knowing that your vote at least helped neutralize one rightard's vote.
 
2012-10-09 02:56:00 AM  
Vet that's not voting Obama.

But I guess I am just a racist, homophobic, extremist akin to some farking 3rd world Jihadist.

But what the fark would I know?
 
2012-10-09 03:02:42 AM  

whidbey: Not even mad. Just pointing out that you obviously can't stand the fact that the Obama administration will receive credit for supporting gay marriage that you have to concoct some series of events that somehow proves otherwise.


I don't mind if Obama gets credit for supporting gay marriage. He should. But he should have also supported it in 2008, instead of cynically pretending otherwise until he could safely endorse it.

He calculated that supporting gay marriage was politically harmful in 2008, but wasn't as harmful in 2012. He obviously cares more about re-election than about civil rights.

Well, he isn't. He's whatever the Republican party stuffs into his mouth, he doesn't care a rip about the poor, and he wants to waste a bunch of money teaching Iran a lesson in American hegemony.

Mitt Romney has said plenty that the Republican Party disagrees with (e.g. not supporting a larger tax cut). He donates an enormous amount to charity (helping the poor more than 99.9% of people ever will). And finally, he's indicated no desire to go to war with Iran. In fact, he's said the same thing about Iran that Obama has! ("All options are on the table.")

You're voting for the continued downfall of this country both economically and morally. Honestly, I wouldn't even be bragging.

This comment offers an intriguing view into your mind. Clearly, you think one of two things about me:

1) That I'm knowingly voting for a candidate who I think will lead to the downfall of America, because I am a supervillain.

2) That I am so naive that, despite my good intentions, I'm ignorantly voting for the supervillain candidate.

I hope you realize that intelligent people don't always agree, and that's especially true when it comes to politics. If you dehumanize your opponents into savages who yearn for the moral downfall of America, you're only hurting yourself - you're locking yourself inward, removed from half of your fellow Americans.
 
2012-10-09 03:03:10 AM  

Mitt Romneys Tax Return: Barack Obama, secret liberal.


Totally stealing that.
 
2012-10-09 03:07:53 AM  

hubiestubert: As a Republican, I voted for Obama last time around.

The party refused to do the thinking that should have gone into wondering how McCain lost, and so badly. It then doubled down on the very idiocy that turned the national arena against him, and bolstered candidates who are not just poor for their districts, but poor for the nation, and then lionized them for their obfuscation and obstructionism.

It disgusted me so, that after the Primary, I changed my registration. I did so, because the party no longer serves the ideals that brought me to her. And that was a life long Republican. After more than 20 years. Mind you, that life long Republicanism has been with caveats. I have never held with idea of voting strictly for a party candidate. You vote for the person you think will best do the job. In some cases, that was a Democrat, in some cases that was an independent candidate, and in some cases it was the Republican, but that means actually looking down the slate, and looking at the positions and the candidates themselves. Over the years, I kept my party membership, in many races, just to vote against candidates in Primaries who were NOT fit for service. In this case, I was glad to cast a vote against Romney, and I was saddened that Johnson wasn't on the ticket, because while I don't agree with the man on many economic issues, he is far more sane a candidate and far more ideologically appealing to me than Mittens will ever be. Then again, I have despised Romney since his involvement with the UMaine system from those college days, and perhaps my antipathy for him has held true over the years, but for a man who has been essentially running for this office for six years now, there's a LOT to dislike the man for.

I will be voting for Obama again. Plain and true. I'd like a better candidate than either Romney or Obama, but of the folks running this time around, I think that Obama will do the least damage to the nation and to the office. And sometimes, that's the choice y ...


From your lips to God's ears.
 
2012-10-09 03:08:07 AM  

FloydA: simplicimus:

Honestly, you think anyone here doesn't understand the reference?

My expectations for the Politics tab are rather low. TBH, I'm impressed that half of these farknuggets understand that they should wipe when they poo.


Really? The discussion stays relatively civil and there are only a few partisan hacks which you get to recognize after a while. It's the best politics forum I know. The only comparable place is the Straight Dope.
 
2012-10-09 03:09:56 AM  

bdub77: Person on internet with political opinion: "I'm an idiot."

Me: "Yes you are. But good choice."


I reject this notion precisely because smarter people are more likely to hold it. You're insignificant in the world as a whole as well, are you going to off yourself? Our planet is insignificant in the universe as well, shall we bomb ourselves to oblivion?
 
2012-10-09 03:10:27 AM  
I won't vote Obama, but I can't bring myself to vote for the mystery bag of comic books known as Romney. I'm going to vote Johnson. I think that, as a conservative, I'll get more utility out of encouraging a third-party fiscally conservative candidate than vote for something that is unlikely to be a significant change from who we have now - not if you look at his history. Actions speak louder than words, and Romney is pretty damn close to Obama.
 
2012-10-09 03:11:25 AM  

I_C_Weener: Lifelong? "A moderate, Pressler voted for Obama in 2008". Huh.


No comments on how the "Lifelong Democrat" from the other thread probably hadn't voted for a Democrat since Clinton?

/Of course not, he's a hyper-partisan shill.
//Socially liberal but otherwise centre-right moderate who voted straight D for the first time in my life.
 
2012-10-09 03:15:38 AM  

Jolonco: Vet that's not voting Obama.

But I guess I am just a racist, homophobic, extremist akin to some farking 3rd world Jihadist.

But what the fark would I know?


I hope you enjoy the forthcoming cuts to the VA, GI Bill, and other Veterans Programs that will be forthcoming under a Romney administration.
 
2012-10-09 03:21:23 AM  

Ricardo Klement: I won't vote Obama, but I can't bring myself to vote for the mystery bag of comic books known as Romney. I'm going to vote Johnson. I think that, as a conservative, I'll get more utility out of encouraging a third-party fiscally conservative candidate than vote for something that is unlikely to be a significant change from who we have now - not if you look at his history. Actions speak louder than words, and Romney is pretty damn close to Obama.


There's no change in political utility unless you vote in Ohio or Florida. And even then, it's statistically nil.

If you vote your conscience, and feel better about yourself as a result, I suppose that's a utility gain, albeit unrelated to the election. You could probably get the same result by volunteering at a soup kitchen for an hour.
 
2012-10-09 03:31:19 AM  

Captain Dan: Ricardo Klement: I won't vote Obama, but I can't bring myself to vote for the mystery bag of comic books known as Romney. I'm going to vote Johnson. I think that, as a conservative, I'll get more utility out of encouraging a third-party fiscally conservative candidate than vote for something that is unlikely to be a significant change from who we have now - not if you look at his history. Actions speak louder than words, and Romney is pretty damn close to Obama.

There's no change in political utility unless you vote in Ohio or Florida. And even then, it's statistically nil.

If you vote your conscience, and feel better about yourself as a result, I suppose that's a utility gain, albeit unrelated to the election. You could probably get the same result by volunteering at a soup kitchen for an hour.


Except there's utility even if you don't win the election. Remember: earning 5% of the vote qualifies the party for federal election funds. That's tangible utility. If it means more fiscal conservatism, that's better, IMNSHO, than electing an Obama clone who just happens to have an (R) after his name.
 
2012-10-09 03:43:45 AM  

Ricardo Klement: Except there's utility even if you don't win the election. Remember: earning 5% of the vote qualifies the party for federal election funds. That's tangible utility.


Only if Johnson is within striking distance of 5%. I haven't looked at recent statewide polls, but that seems improbable.

If it means more fiscal conservatism, that's better, IMNSHO, than electing an Obama clone who just happens to have an (R) after his name.

I'm with you in preferring a conservative alternative to Romney (who is essentially a corporatist with few convictions), but I'm supporting Romney because he'll at least keep the Supreme Court from going to the left.
 
2012-10-09 03:50:58 AM  
Oooh, I hope I can use this as a way to share my CSB for today.

I got a FW: email from my parents (sent to everyone in their address book) talking about how Jane Fonda is evil and anti-American for protesting the Vietnam war and shiat, and that she has no right to represent Nancy Reagan in her new movie. I send a reply back to them stating that their Presidential Candidate of Choice (Romney) evaded Vietnam by going to France - that technically Fonda spent more time in a war zone than he ever did - and that to please research facts before sending me dumb emails.

I get a scathing response back for insulting the people that they [my parents] knew who died in Vietnam, and that Fonda only encouraged the death of more US Troops. I responded back simply as a Presidential candidate, Romney's past would come back to haunt him. Him leaving the country on his parent's fortune was un-American and highly unpatriotic - that even if he didn't want to fight the war and if leaving the country was his 'form of expression against it' - it was a big FU to those who weren't fortunate enough to have wealthy parents and still had to serve. To this extent, him vying for control of the US military and with the GOP all too trigger-happy to start another war, is the same as Fonda, putting the lives of troops at stake, the lives of troops that he feels are beneath him and his wealth.

/haven't gotten a reply back yet.
 
2012-10-09 03:54:23 AM  

anwserman: /haven't gotten a reply back yet.


Did you show them the picture of Romney protesting for the Vietnam War? If not, do it do it do it.
 
2012-10-09 03:56:00 AM  

anwserman: Oooh, I hope I can use this as a way to share my CSB for today.

I got a FW: email from my parents (sent to everyone in their address book) talking about how Jane Fonda is evil and anti-American for protesting the Vietnam war and shiat, and that she has no right to represent Nancy Reagan in her new movie. I send a reply back to them stating that their Presidential Candidate of Choice (Romney) evaded Vietnam by going to France - that technically Fonda spent more time in a war zone than he ever did - and that to please research facts before sending me dumb emails.

I get a scathing response back for insulting the people that they [my parents] knew who died in Vietnam, and that Fonda only encouraged the death of more US Troops. I responded back simply as a Presidential candidate, Romney's past would come back to haunt him. Him leaving the country on his parent's fortune was un-American and highly unpatriotic - that even if he didn't want to fight the war and if leaving the country was his 'form of expression against it' - it was a big FU to those who weren't fortunate enough to have wealthy parents and still had to serve. To this extent, him vying for control of the US military and with the GOP all too trigger-happy to start another war, is the same as Fonda, putting the lives of troops at stake, the lives of troops that he feels are beneath him and his wealth.

/haven't gotten a reply back yet.


I should also note that I also replied back stating how extremely fortunate I am to have a family that supported me through college and that I didn't need to choose military service as an option to further myself ahead in life. The main difference between myself and Romney is that I'm appreciative of my fortune vs. him.
 
2012-10-09 04:00:08 AM  

anwserman: I send a reply back to them stating that their Presidential Candidate of Choice (Romney) evaded Vietnam by going to France... I responded back simply as a Presidential candidate, Romney's past would come back to haunt him... Him leaving the country on his parent's fortune was un-American and highly unpatriotic...


George Romney opposed the Vietnam War by the mid-1960s. I assume that Mitt did as well. Why would you expect Mitt to go fight in a war he didn't support? Because it might help him in a future presidential run?

It's not "unpatriotic" to not volunteer for army service - that's fascist talk.
 
2012-10-09 04:11:38 AM  

hubiestubert: I will be voting for Obama again. Plain and true. I'd like a better candidate than either Romney or Obama, but of the folks running this time around, I think that Obama will do the least damage to the nation and to the office. And sometimes, that's the choice you are faced with. If Snowe had run, and made it through the Primaries, I'd probably still be Republican, because I worked her campaign in college, and truly believe her to be a good choice. Good for the state of Maine, and good for the nation. But that wasn't in the cards, and more's the pity, because Snowe would have given this country what it needs: a strong Republican voice that is tempered with solid experience and solid leadership qualities, not just the glad handing and cheerleading that folks seem to want.


Hubie, you say this sort of thing a lot - and don't get me wrong, it's not tiresome! But forget about choosing the lesser evil - what platform would you like to see?
/ note that under Obama, government has shrunk
 
2012-10-09 04:18:46 AM  

Captain Dan: anwserman: I send a reply back to them stating that their Presidential Candidate of Choice (Romney) evaded Vietnam by going to France... I responded back simply as a Presidential candidate, Romney's past would come back to haunt him... Him leaving the country on his parent's fortune was un-American and highly unpatriotic...

George Romney opposed the Vietnam War by the mid-1960s. I assume that Mitt did as well. Why would you expect Mitt to go fight in a war he didn't support? Because it might help him in a future presidential run?

It's not "unpatriotic" to not volunteer for army service - that's fascist talk.


To escape the draft because you're fortunate enough to leave the country and leave your peers behind? Bullshiat. There were millions of men who were drafted into the war, and many of them who died probably would be a lot better candidates than Mittens. Why must his wealth make him so special?
 
2012-10-09 04:35:39 AM  

anwserman: To escape the draft because you're fortunate enough to leave the country and leave your peers behind? Bullshiat. There were millions of men who were drafted into the war, and many of them who died probably would be a lot better candidates than Mittens. Why must his wealth make him so special?


I would do the same thing if I were him, and so would any person who felt that the war was unjust. Everyone knows someone who went to jail or fled the country rather than fight in the Vietnam War. Civil disobedience - following one's conscience instead of one's orders - is one of the great demonstrations of moral conviction.
 
2012-10-09 04:42:18 AM  

legalgus: hubiestubert: As a Republican, I voted for Obama last time around.

The party refused to do the thinking that should have gone into wondering how McCain lost, and so badly. It then doubled down on the very idiocy that turned the national arena against him, and bolstered candidates who are not just poor for their districts, but poor for the nation, and then lionized them for their obfuscation and obstructionism.

It disgusted me so, that after the Primary, I changed my registration. I did so, because the party no longer serves the ideals that brought me to her. And that was a life long Republican. After more than 20 years. Mind you, that life long Republicanism has been with caveats. I have never held with idea of voting strictly for a party candidate. You vote for the person you think will best do the job. In some cases, that was a Democrat, in some cases that was an independent candidate, and in some cases it was the Republican, but that means actually looking down the slate, and looking at the positions and the candidates themselves. Over the years, I kept my party membership, in many races, just to vote against candidates in Primaries who were NOT fit for service. In this case, I was glad to cast a vote against Romney, and I was saddened that Johnson wasn't on the ticket, because while I don't agree with the man on many economic issues, he is far more sane a candidate and far more ideologically appealing to me than Mittens will ever be. Then again, I have despised Romney since his involvement with the UMaine system from those college days, and perhaps my antipathy for him has held true over the years, but for a man who has been essentially running for this office for six years now, there's a LOT to dislike the man for.

I will be voting for Obama again. Plain and true. I'd like a better candidate than either Romney or Obama, but of the folks running this time around, I think that Obama will do the least damage to the nation and to the office. And sometimes, that' ...


PROFILE:
2012-09-28 23:46:02
plant city florida

so much fail. so little time.
 
2012-10-09 04:44:56 AM  
legalgus's reply to hubie, which was truncated above, which I was responding to: Another long winded liberal douchbag claiming to be a Republican. Only a true dyed in the wool idiot would fail to realize what a disaster we'd have with four more years of Obama.


/sigh
//sucks to be me failing harder than a troll
 
2012-10-09 04:45:04 AM  
But... ya know, wouldn't protesting Vietnam and escaping the draft only then to run for President years later be slightly hypocritical? Let's not lie, if Romney becomes President, there will be another war in the Middle East coming right up, either against Syria or Iran. So, how can it be acceptable that he flees military service only to later command it and possibly sentence others to their death?
 
2012-10-09 04:46:13 AM  

Captain Dan: anwserman: I send a reply back to them stating that their Presidential Candidate of Choice (Romney) evaded Vietnam by going to France... I responded back simply as a Presidential candidate, Romney's past would come back to haunt him... Him leaving the country on his parent's fortune was un-American and highly unpatriotic...

George Romney opposed the Vietnam War by the mid-1960s. I assume that Mitt did as well. Why would you expect Mitt to go fight in a war he didn't support? Because it might help him in a future presidential run?

It's not "unpatriotic" to not volunteer for army service - that's fascist talk.


Your assumption is wrong.

4.bp.blogspot.com

Mitt is nothing like his father.
 
2012-10-09 04:48:02 AM  

Captain Dan: whidbey: Not even mad. Just pointing out that you obviously can't stand the fact that the Obama administration will receive credit for supporting gay marriage that you have to concoct some series of events that somehow proves otherwise.

I don't mind if Obama gets credit for supporting gay marriage. He should. But he should have also supported it in 2008, instead of cynically pretending otherwise until he could safely endorse it.

He calculated that supporting gay marriage was politically harmful in 2008, but wasn't as harmful in 2012. He obviously cares more about re-election than about civil rights.

Well, he isn't. He's whatever the Republican party stuffs into his mouth, he doesn't care a rip about the poor, and he wants to waste a bunch of money teaching Iran a lesson in American hegemony.

Mitt Romney has said plenty that the Republican Party disagrees with (e.g. not supporting a larger tax cut). He donates an enormous amount to charity (helping the poor more than 99.9% of people ever will). And finally, he's indicated no desire to go to war with Iran. In fact, he's said the same thing about Iran that Obama has! ("All options are on the table.")

You're voting for the continued downfall of this country both economically and morally. Honestly, I wouldn't even be bragging.

This comment offers an intriguing view into your mind. Clearly, you think one of two things about me:

1) That I'm knowingly voting for a candidate who I think will lead to the downfall of America, because I am a supervillain.

2) That I am so naive that, despite my good intentions, I'm ignorantly voting for the supervillain candidate.

I hope you realize that intelligent people don't always agree, and that's especially true when it comes to politics. If you dehumanize your opponents into savages who yearn for the moral downfall of America, you're only hurting yourself - you're locking yourself inward, removed from half of your fellow Americans.


Which Mitt Romney are you voting for? The liberal one who was governor of Massachusetts or the conservative one who shucked it all to run as a GOP candidate?
 
2012-10-09 04:51:53 AM  

Trapper439: Captain Dan: anwserman: I send a reply back to them stating that their Presidential Candidate of Choice (Romney) evaded Vietnam by going to France... I responded back simply as a Presidential candidate, Romney's past would come back to haunt him... Him leaving the country on his parent's fortune was un-American and highly unpatriotic...

George Romney opposed the Vietnam War by the mid-1960s. I assume that Mitt did as well. Why would you expect Mitt to go fight in a war he didn't support? Because it might help him in a future presidential run?

It's not "unpatriotic" to not volunteer for army service - that's fascist talk.

Your assumption is wrong.

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 850x878]

Mitt is nothing like his father.


Ok, Mitt's a douche now (not like he wasn't before). It's OK for others to die in a war he supports but not himself.
 
2012-10-09 04:52:19 AM  

Captain Dan: anwserman: To escape the draft because you're fortunate enough to leave the country and leave your peers behind? Bullshiat. There were millions of men who were drafted into the war, and many of them who died probably would be a lot better candidates than Mittens. Why must his wealth make him so special?

I would do the same thing if I were him, and so would any person who felt that the war was unjust. Everyone knows someone who went to jail or fled the country rather than fight in the Vietnam War. Civil disobedience - following one's conscience instead of one's orders - is one of the great demonstrations of moral conviction.


Mittens didn't believe the war was unjust.

i.dailymail.co.uk

A version of the story explaining the above photo, courtesy of the daily fail:

Preppy protester: The moment a 19-year-old Mitt Romney demonstrated in favour of Vietnam War draft
- Teenage Romney takes unpopular stance in favour of south-east Asian war
- But his status as 'Mormon missionary' exempted him from the draft
- Future GOP presidential candidate dressed in smart, preppy clothes
- Romney's father George was the Governor of Michigan at the time

"A newly-unearthed photograph showing Mitt Romney demonstrating in favour of the Vietnam War draft might leave the presidential candidate feeling somewhat embarrassed. The veteran Republican, then 19, can be seen picketing an anti-war sit-in at Stanford University in Palo Alto, California, in 1966.... A newspaper clipping headlined 'Governor's son pickets the pickets' states: 'Mitt Romney, son of Michigan Gov. George Romney, was one of the pickets who supported the Stanford University administration in opposition to sit-in demonstrators.' ... Carey Coulter was one of the demonstrators alongside Mr Romney that day. He told BuzzFeed.com: 'We were there to get an education and these people holding the administration hostage was antithetical to that. 'Mitt walked up to me and said that he had some experience with the press, and that he would handle the press for me if I wanted him to. I said fine, because I was busy running the demonstration.


i.dailymail.co.uk

... His pro-war son, meanwhile, never served in south-east Asia because his status as a Mormon missionary exempted him from the draft. The GOP hopeful spent just one year at Stanford before heading to France for 30 months of missionary work. He had already met his future wife Ann in 1965 when he was 18 and she was 15. The couple married in 1969 and have five sons and 16 grandchildren...."

Again, an ex-Mormon over at Free Republic wrote how white Mormons were able to get the deferments, but black Mormons were barred and sent off the war because the Mormon Church never approved black Mormon men's applications for missionary exemptions.
 
2012-10-09 04:57:03 AM  

anwserman: But... ya know, wouldn't protesting Vietnam and escaping the draft only then to run for President years later be slightly hypocritical? Let's not lie, if Romney becomes President, there will be another war in the Middle East coming right up, either against Syria or Iran. So, how can it be acceptable that he flees military service only to later command it and possibly sentence others to their death?


War is something fought by mud people, the cursed, not by the Chosen.
And certainly not by the Prophesied White Horse

i8.photobucket.com
(demotivator courtesy of a fking Freeper)
 
2012-10-09 05:00:56 AM  

Trapper439: Captain Dan: anwserman: I send a reply back to them stating that their Presidential Candidate of Choice (Romney) evaded Vietnam by going to France... I responded back simply as a Presidential candidate, Romney's past would come back to haunt him... Him leaving the country on his parent's fortune was un-American and highly unpatriotic...

George Romney opposed the Vietnam War by the mid-1960s. I assume that Mitt did as well. Why would you expect Mitt to go fight in a war he didn't support? Because it might help him in a future presidential run?

It's not "unpatriotic" to not volunteer for army service - that's fascist talk.

Your assumption is wrong.

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 850x878]

Mitt is nothing like his father.


Sorry, dude. Didn't see your post before pulling up the Daily Mail version to post mine. Sorry about that :( Thank you for getting there first, to correct Dan's erroneous assumptions.
 
2012-10-09 05:04:37 AM  

ExperianScaresCthulhu: Trapper439: Captain Dan: anwserman: I send a reply back to them stating that their Presidential Candidate of Choice (Romney) evaded Vietnam by going to France... I responded back simply as a Presidential candidate, Romney's past would come back to haunt him... Him leaving the country on his parent's fortune was un-American and highly unpatriotic...

George Romney opposed the Vietnam War by the mid-1960s. I assume that Mitt did as well. Why would you expect Mitt to go fight in a war he didn't support? Because it might help him in a future presidential run?

It's not "unpatriotic" to not volunteer for army service - that's fascist talk.

Your assumption is wrong.

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 850x878]

Mitt is nothing like his father.

Sorry, dude. Didn't see your post before pulling up the Daily Mail version to post mine. Sorry about that :( Thank you for getting there first, to correct Dan's erroneous assumptions.


You went the extra mile and actually provided the story behind the picture. Your post was much better than mine. Kudos to you.
 
2012-10-09 05:13:55 AM  
Also,

"white Mormons were able to get the deferments, but black Mormons were barred and sent off the war because the Mormon Church never approved black Mormon men's applications for missionary exemptions."

I'd never heard that before, thanks for pointing it out, ExperianScaresCthulhu.

That is just despicable. Mind you, the Mormons basically didn't recognise black people as equals until the 1980s, so it's hardly surprising.
 
2012-10-09 05:19:35 AM  

ExperianScaresCthulhu:
Mittens didn't believe the war was unjust.

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x495]


Heh. I suppose they get credit for not purging the old Romney articles after he receives the nomination.
I wonder if Fox News or the other more mainstream "news" outlets maintain them.
 
2012-10-09 05:37:53 AM  

fusillade762: I'm afraid the extreme wing will say that we weren't conservative enough.

You mean they're going to get even crazier?  I'm sorta terrified to wonder what that would consist of.


I'm more terrified of the democrats trying to meet these republicans halfway toward their new goalpost.
 
2012-10-09 05:41:10 AM  

Trapper439: Also,

"white Mormons were able to get the deferments, but black Mormons were barred and sent off the war because the Mormon Church never approved black Mormon men's applications for missionary exemptions."

I'd never heard that before, thanks for pointing it out, ExperianScaresCthulhu.

That is just despicable. Mind you, the Mormons basically didn't recognise black people as equals until the 1980s, so it's hardly surprising.


It's ExMo Freeper hearsay, so take it with a grain of salt.

- The Freeper Thread I first heard it from: Jabari Parker: Being Black and Mormonism: "As a white Mormon, Mitt Romney was given a draft deferment by his church (they were in charge of their own deferments, and would submit them to the draft board), a draft deferment forbidden to black Mormons. Black Mormons were not allowed Mormon draft deferments, they went to war."

(Of course, you gotta read the Black Mormon rebuttal beneath that same post ;) "... yes we were denied the priesthood bur the lord gave us the temples which every member of our faith at that time have received the endowments or the eternal priesthood so they will be able to obtain the celestial kingdom and exaltation ... " -- forgive me for having Deep South flashbacks. I'm hoping even Uncle Ruckus gives this fool the side eye. Somebody needs to do a prayer circle for these poor field knee grows happy to be field knee grows and maybe one day they'll be light and bright and white just like Massa ...

- Biased blogger's site also making the same claim: Why did Black Mormons have to get drafted for Vietnam, while White Mormons were given deferments?: "One of the convenient factors ignored by the ruling White Elite MEN of the Mormon high leadership, is that White Mormon Men, by having the priesthood, could claim Minister of Religion for a deferment from fighting in Vietnam. While if you were a Black Mormon man, there was no such deferment for them, since the Mormons consider blacks inferior, and withheld the priesthood from blacks. Without having the priesthood, Blacks were not eligible for Mormon draft deferments. There are enough stories on the internet of "individuals" who weren't even regular members of the Mormon church, sons of devout Mormons, but once they received a low draft number, all of a sudden, those white boys were qualified for Mormon deferments - all the while black Mormons had to fight and die as a PROXY for the White Mormon boys.Convenient, racist, but has the Mormon cult changed? Why are there no blacks that are rich enough, faithful enough, educated enough, to be included in the First Presidency, the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, or the Presiding Bishopric?"

-- and finally, courtesy of exmormon.org: Great article on Veterans Today about Mitt evading the draft...on topic. -- "Much as I enjoyed this, it seems to push a bit past the limits of what can be documented. That seems unnecessary because it's such an easy target. I'm especially glad they bring the racism in. I don't believe there were any Black Mormon young men getting deferments. They all had to fight. These statements make me nervous: "There are no Mormon facilities in France now nor have there ever been." What about churches, aren't they facilities? It wasn't until 1978 that the challenges to the Mormon Church as legitimate due to their racists policies was settled by the IRS allowing them the legal status of a religious organization. Prior to that, they had the same tax standing as the KKK." The link provided doesn't document the claim, and I don't think it is accurate. Romney is really vulnerable on this topic, so I just wish they were a little more careful. To me, it reads a little 'anti-Mormon'.

-- the rebuttal by another poster, same thread: "The point the journalist was making is that there were no mormon Divinity schools in France during Romney's service there. Also, France has officially declared mormonism to be a cult."

-- a third person parsing what it meant that blacks were never allowed deferments, but whites were, and WHY that happened, without passing judgement on the Mormon church: "While I think the label of "Chickenhawk" is applicable to Mitt, the man obviousley avoided military service while obviously being in support of the war. He definately took advantage of the deferrments available. The article is a little dependant on Wikipedia. The claim that the IRS entered into a deal with the church to allow blacks to recieve full fellowship, while certainly could have happened is not supported by evidence, at least that I know of.

The claim that Blacks were not allowed to be members, not quite accurate. Vietnam was before my time but it is my understanding that many Mormons chose Missionary service as a way to avoid Vietnam.They were classified as ministers and recieved a minesterial deferrment. I know alot of members used National Guard and reserve service as a way to avoid the draft also. I liked the quotes on the "Curse of Cain" though. Those always are great because they let the leadership speak for themselves."


---- The article the above exmormon.org thread is referring to: Veteran's Today Military and Foreign Affairs Journal: Romney's "Mormon" Draft Deferment Not Legal -- Draft Dodger Demonstrated for Vietnam Draft then Ran to France, by Gordon Duff, Senior Editor ...Here, from Yahoo, is the entire list of draft deferments. Voluntary service as a "missionary" or helping the homeless or raking lawns aren't on the list:... There is no record of Romney filing for conscientious objector status. His photo ops riding around on a bicycle asking the French if they wanted free English lessons, what he actually did while there, is hardly divinity study....There are no Mormon facilities in France now nor have there ever been. It wasn't until 2009 that Mormonism applied to be registered as an established religion in France.

In 2006, the Mormon church came under investigation for its policies toward women and children which are inconsistent with French law. ...Unwanted by the French, facing a war he seemed so dedicated to see others fight, there he sat in France, we are told not enjoying wine or sex, 30 months outside the United States during wartime with no imaginable rationale for failing to serve his nation. With a father that was a close friend of the president, do you imagine he felt the rules didn't apply to him?

If there are any doubts, Romney could have volunteered for missionary work, something not covered by deferment. He took a college deferment, attended for as short time, left Stanford for some unknown reason, should have been drafted the day Stanford sent in the report to the draft required by law....



but wait, there's more.... 



Anyway, all that to say: REAL REPUBLICANS DON'T VOTE ROMNEY
 
2012-10-09 05:54:20 AM  

God-is-a-Taco: ExperianScaresCthulhu:
Mittens didn't believe the war was unjust.

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x495]


Heh. I suppose they get credit for not purging the old Romney articles after he receives the nomination.
I wonder if Fox News or the other more mainstream "news" outlets maintain them.


Why purge it, when people have already shown they'll believe the sky is green if they want to hear the sky is green.
 
2012-10-09 06:00:46 AM  

Jolonco: Vet that's not voting Obama.

But I guess I am just a racist, homophobic, extremist akin to some farking 3rd world Jihadist.

But what the fark would I know?


Isn't making up bullshiat to justify your position fun?

Have fun supporting someone who dodged the draft that wants to send kids to war at the drop of a hat.
 
x23
2012-10-09 06:19:53 AM  

Captain Dan: He donates an enormous amount to charity


correction : he donates an enormous amount to the Mormon church. i don't consider building a shopping mall a particularly charitable act.
 
2012-10-09 06:24:03 AM  

x23: Captain Dan: He donates an enormous amount to charity

correction : he donates an enormous amount to the Mormon church. i don't consider building a shopping mall a particularly charitable act.


It's charity, like riding bicycles while asking folks if they want free english lessons is missionary work.
 
2012-10-09 06:26:42 AM  

x23: correction : he donates an enormous amount to the Mormon church. i don't consider building a shopping mall a particularly charitable act.


Honestly, given how much they put into Prop 8, I'd consider donating to the Mormon Church to be an act of anti-charity.
 
2012-10-09 07:56:47 AM  

hubiestubert: As a Republican, I voted for Obama last time around.

The party refused to do the thinking that should have gone into wondering how McCain lost, and so badly. It then doubled down on the very idiocy that turned the national arena against him, and bolstered candidates who are not just poor for their districts, but poor for the nation, and then lionized them for their obfuscation and obstructionism.

It disgusted me so, that after the Primary, I changed my registration. I did so, because the party no longer serves the ideals that brought me to her. And that was a life long Republican. After more than 20 years. Mind you, that life long Republicanism has been with caveats. I have never held with idea of voting strictly for a party candidate. You vote for the person you think will best do the job. In some cases, that was a Democrat, in some cases that was an independent candidate, and in some cases it was the Republican, but that means actually looking down the slate, and looking at the positions and the candidates themselves. Over the years, I kept my party membership, in many races, just to vote against candidates in Primaries who were NOT fit for service. In this case, I was glad to cast a vote against Romney, and I was saddened that Johnson wasn't on the ticket, because while I don't agree with the man on many economic issues, he is far more sane a candidate and far more ideologically appealing to me than Mittens will ever be. Then again, I have despised Romney since his involvement with the UMaine system from those college days, and perhaps my antipathy for him has held true over the years, but for a man who has been essentially running for this office for six years now, there's a LOT to dislike the man for.

I will be voting for Obama again. Plain and true. I'd like a better candidate than either Romney or Obama, but of the folks running this time around, I think that Obama will do the least damage to the nation and to the office. And sometimes, that's the choice y ...


Good for you sir. You have made similar comments in the past regarding how you left the Republican Party and yet, I have not seeing a single fark troll ever call you up on it. All they do is spout their talking points about how left bad, right good etc. The left is the enemy of this country and so on and so on but I would think a troll would be more upset if one of their 'own' left the GOP. I mean what is more treasonous than that to them? And yet, not one comment about you (or other fark members that have also left the GOP) to condemn you. Not one comment asking why? Not one statement telling you that you are using the 'wrong' reasons for leaving the GOP.
 
2012-10-09 07:57:02 AM  

DrowningLessons: tenpoundsofcheese: FTA: the veterans are offended by Romney.

Reality: Military favors Romney 2:1

oopsie.

explains the shenanigans about getting ballots to the military.

I'd like to see a better poll than that. I know it's anecdotal, but every single military person I know despises Mitt Romney. Actually, that's not true -- I know one or two that don't despise him. They're still voting for President Obama, though.


I can't speak for all of us, but the two veterans that live in my house can't stand him either.
 
2012-10-09 08:52:34 AM  
Nothing new here.
 
2012-10-09 09:26:12 AM  

existentist: Veteran. Voting Obama again. Won't matter though. I'm in Texas.


me too but i'm in LA. same difference. i will however have the personal satisfaction of registering my opinion.
 
2012-10-09 09:35:37 AM  

whidbey: The fact is, the Democrats have become the defacto centrist party now, and actually do have policies that conservatives can agree on.

At this point, it's up to us to start a new party that's politically to the left of the Democrats.

Obvious tag drinks all night.


I would love to see enacted the legal changes necessary to allow more than two truly viable political parties coupled with instant run-off voting. I think some non-governmental organization will have to write the legislation, then sell both the Democrats and Republicans the idea that it will benefit their party to the exclusion of the other to get that legislation submitted and passed. Obviously, that will be easier said than done. Still I haven't given up on the notion. Just because I haven't figured out how to get it done, doesn't mean that there isn't someone else out there, someone far smarter than me, who can reason out a way to accomplish that task.

One of the greatest benefits to the Democratic party would, I think, be the existence of an actual Socialist Party on the ballot. Then, people who have no idea what socialism is would not be able to call the Democrats socialists.

A benefit to the Republican party would be that actual socialists would vote for the Socialist party or the Green Party rather than the Democrats.
 
2012-10-09 09:57:39 AM  

existentist: Veteran. Voting Obama again. Won't matter though. I'm in Texas.


Myself, although I live in Louisiana and it's a pretty solid red state except for Orleans Parish and maybe a district in the Lafayette area, on occasion. It's weird with veterans sometimes, my grandfather was a naval officer in WWII, and he votes Democrat a lot, but my dad, who was a petty officer, is pretty hardcore Republican. A good friend that I have known since high school and is about to retire from active duty Army, Republican.

/ 19 Kilo, why walk into battle when you can ride
// both parties treat vets pretty shamefully
 
2012-10-09 10:00:29 AM  

Towermonkey: existentist: Veteran. Voting Obama again. Won't matter though. I'm in Texas.

Myself, although I live in Louisiana and it's a pretty solid red state except for Orleans Parish and maybe a district in the Lafayette area, on occasion. It's weird with veterans sometimes, my grandfather was a naval officer in WWII, and he votes Democrat a lot, but my dad, who was a petty officer, is pretty hardcore Republican. A good friend that I have known since high school and is about to retire from active duty Army, Republican.

/ 19 Kilo, why walk into battle when you can ride
// both parties treat vets pretty shamefully


Both parties treat active duty personnel pretty shamefully. If this nation had real respect for our people in the military, war/military engagements would be almost unheard of. They should be well trained and rarely, if ever, used.
 
2012-10-09 10:04:13 AM  

Lunaville: Towermonkey: existentist: Veteran. Voting Obama again. Won't matter though. I'm in Texas.

Myself, although I live in Louisiana and it's a pretty solid red state except for Orleans Parish and maybe a district in the Lafayette area, on occasion. It's weird with veterans sometimes, my grandfather was a naval officer in WWII, and he votes Democrat a lot, but my dad, who was a petty officer, is pretty hardcore Republican. A good friend that I have known since high school and is about to retire from active duty Army, Republican.

/ 19 Kilo, why walk into battle when you can ride
// both parties treat vets pretty shamefully

Both parties treat active duty personnel pretty shamefully. If this nation had real respect for our people in the military, war/military engagements would be almost unheard of. They should be well trained and rarely, if ever, used.


No argument from me. My little brother is still not quite right after a couple tours in Iraq and I suspect he may never be.
 
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