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(Townhall)   Forty-five years ago this week, Che Guevara was declared a murderer, put up against a wall, and shot. And that t-shirt makes you look like an idiot   ( townhall.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, Che Guevara, murderers, walls  
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2122 clicks; posted to Politics » on 08 Oct 2012 at 12:43 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-08 02:13:15 PM  
thumbs1.ebaystatic.com

Really? An idiot?
 
2012-10-08 02:14:32 PM  

Ricardo Klement: manimal2878: colinspooky: Was this all true, or the exaggerated rantings of a non fan? Genuine question

It's the view of the Cubans kicked out of Cuba for sure.

The facts are that Che did over see the trial and execution of those deemed war criminals after the revolution. How you view the revolution will color whether you see those trials as the carrying out of law or murder.

There is little in Communist revolutionary history that should give one optimism when it comes to their trials.


Yeah, they should have just followed the rule of law and voted Batista out of power.
 
2012-10-08 02:17:53 PM  
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-10-08 02:21:01 PM  

Rapmaster2000: Ricardo Klement: Rapmaster2000: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Is Che Guevara really a big problem in the United States nowadays? Or is this just some semi-strawman for a blogger to build up and then knock down to look all tough?

Semi-strawman. I haven't seen a Che shirt for almost 20 years. It was a fashion fad started by a lousy band that Paul Ryan listens to. It's over.

Next week Townhall is going to take down the disco music fad with all of its quaaludes and polyester suits that the youth are into these days.

Attend any anti-war protest.

It's been about 8 years since they've had one of those.


It's only been about 4 years. They stopped after the 2008 election because they were no longer politically expedient.
 
2012-10-08 02:24:50 PM  

Bad_Seed: Ricardo Klement: manimal2878: colinspooky: Was this all true, or the exaggerated rantings of a non fan? Genuine question

It's the view of the Cubans kicked out of Cuba for sure.

The facts are that Che did over see the trial and execution of those deemed war criminals after the revolution. How you view the revolution will color whether you see those trials as the carrying out of law or murder.

There is little in Communist revolutionary history that should give one optimism when it comes to their trials.

Yeah, they should have just followed the rule of law and voted Batista out of power.


To say that communism is bad is not the same as saying that what it replaced was good. History is replete with examples of one form of despotism replacing another form of despotism.
 
2012-10-08 02:25:50 PM  

Pocket Ninja: colinspooky: Was this all true, or the exaggerated rantings of a non fan? Genuine question

As a general rule on the internet, it is safe to assume that the stronger the poster's opinions on the following three topics:

1) George Orwell
2) Ayn Rand
3) Che Guevera

the less likely it is that he or she actually knows anything about them beyond blind parrotry.

This rule applies generally to many other topics as well, but it's on these three subjects in particular that you will find its applicability rising to nearly 100 percent certainty.


II have to agree with the verbose master, there.
I've read a lot of books in my life, and I still read.
I've read rand and Orwell, and formulated no opinions on either. Maybe it's because when I get done with a book, I think, "well, now I have read that" and nothing more. I don't think of what existential impact it has had on me. If I truly didn't like it, I would have stopped reading it. I can think of only one book that I stopped reading and that was the Chronicles Of Riddick. And only because I needed that exact thickness to prop up a guest bed leg. I'm not reading to change the world, and I'll not kid myself and think I can change the world by writing anything that will convince people to go out and read. I'll simply die on a planet overcrowded with people who didn't have the ability to think for themselves or define their own destinies. Blind parrotry. Yeah, I hear that every election cycle.
 
2012-10-08 02:26:35 PM  

Rapmaster2000: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Is Che Guevara really a big problem in the United States nowadays? Or is this just some semi-strawman for a blogger to build up and then knock down to look all tough?

Semi-strawman. I haven't seen a Che shirt for almost 20 years. It was a fashion fad started by a lousy band that Paul Ryan listens to. It's over.

Next week Townhall is going to take down the disco music fad with all of its quaaludes and polyester suits that the youth are into these days.


They were around long before 'that band'.

Saw one last week.
 
2012-10-08 02:27:33 PM  
The one genuine accomplishment in Che Guevara's life was the mass-murder of defenseless men and boys. Under his own gun dozens died. Under his orders thousands crumpled. At everything else Che Guevara failed abysmally, even comically

Except for that whole Cuban Revolution thing, where him, the Castro brothers and 18 other guys managed to fight their way through the entire island to overthrow Batista's regime. Which is probably the reason why this hombre is in America, writing bad articles for disreputable websites, instead of sitting on his family's plantation oppressing the peasants.
 
2012-10-08 02:33:40 PM  

CujoQuarrel: Rapmaster2000: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Is Che Guevara really a big problem in the United States nowadays? Or is this just some semi-strawman for a blogger to build up and then knock down to look all tough?

Semi-strawman. I haven't seen a Che shirt for almost 20 years. It was a fashion fad started by a lousy band that Paul Ryan listens to. It's over.

Next week Townhall is going to take down the disco music fad with all of its quaaludes and polyester suits that the youth are into these days.

They were around long before 'that band'.

Saw one last week.


When the world ends, I'm moving to a red state. Everything there happens 10 years later.
 
2012-10-08 02:34:17 PM  
I lived in an all male dorm in undergrad, kind of like a frat only it was "officially" run by the school. Part of that was we had two of the tenants were also student housing employees, one ran the hall the other supervised the cooks and food orders. We had a hall shirt made up one year with a picture of one of them posing like Che and set to a red background with his name superimposed over the bottom (just like the poster). We knew the full implications of the original, and it just made it funnier.

/CSB
 
2012-10-08 02:34:27 PM  

Nabb1: I love those Che t-shirts and posters. They let you know immediately that the person wearing the shirt or who has the poster on his wall shouldn't be taken seriously.


Yeah those and the "Free Mumia" t-shirts and posters saved me a lot of time in college.
 
2012-10-08 02:35:03 PM  

Cybernetic: Bad_Seed: Ricardo Klement: manimal2878: colinspooky: Was this all true, or the exaggerated rantings of a non fan? Genuine question

It's the view of the Cubans kicked out of Cuba for sure.

The facts are that Che did over see the trial and execution of those deemed war criminals after the revolution. How you view the revolution will color whether you see those trials as the carrying out of law or murder.

There is little in Communist revolutionary history that should give one optimism when it comes to their trials.

Yeah, they should have just followed the rule of law and voted Batista out of power.

To say that communism is bad is not the same as saying that what it replaced was good. History is replete with examples of one form of despotism replacing another form of despotism.


Both sides are bad. So vote Batista.

The great thing about being a western liberal is that you can look down on all other systems and all other people's attempts to change the world - *tut tut* those revolutionaries ended up doing bad things too. They should really have had the wisdom to have been more like us - this kind of moral superiority is a really valuable thing to have.
 
2012-10-08 02:35:58 PM  

Bad_Seed: The one genuine accomplishment in Che Guevara's life was the mass-murder of defenseless men and boys. Under his own gun dozens died. Under his orders thousands crumpled. At everything else Che Guevara failed abysmally, even comically

Except for that whole Cuban Revolution thing, where him, the Castro brothers and 18 other guys managed to fight their way through the entire island to overthrow Batista's regime. Which is probably the reason why this hombre is in America, writing bad articles for disreputable websites, instead of sitting on his family's plantation oppressing the peasants.


Che was a twisted, murdering asshole. Every revolution has them. Regardless of what you think of the merits of the Revolution, Che was a despicable man who had his men ruthlessly kill, torture and rape for the cause. You can still celebrate the Revolution and condemn Che for the piece of human excrement that he was.
 
2012-10-08 02:42:03 PM  

Nabb1: Bad_Seed: The one genuine accomplishment in Che Guevara's life was the mass-murder of defenseless men and boys. Under his own gun dozens died. Under his orders thousands crumpled. At everything else Che Guevara failed abysmally, even comically

Except for that whole Cuban Revolution thing, where him, the Castro brothers and 18 other guys managed to fight their way through the entire island to overthrow Batista's regime. Which is probably the reason why this hombre is in America, writing bad articles for disreputable websites, instead of sitting on his family's plantation oppressing the peasants.

Che was a twisted, murdering asshole. Every revolution has them. Regardless of what you think of the merits of the Revolution, Che was a despicable man who had his men ruthlessly kill, torture and rape for the cause. You can still celebrate the Revolution and condemn Che for the piece of human excrement that he was.


You can have a revolution without killing people?
 
2012-10-08 02:43:11 PM  
i998.photobucket.com
 
2012-10-08 02:43:46 PM  

scottydoesntknow: vernonFL: Without trial he was declared a murderer, stood against a wall and shot.

Even Jeffrey Dahmer and Saddam Hussein got a trial.

On the other end though, Knife-butt Ghadaffi did not get a trial, just a knife up his butt.



And then there's Osama - but that's cool.

Because Obama.
 
2012-10-08 02:44:21 PM  

Bad_Seed: Cybernetic: Bad_Seed: Ricardo Klement: manimal2878: colinspooky: Was this all true, or the exaggerated rantings of a non fan? Genuine question

It's the view of the Cubans kicked out of Cuba for sure.

The facts are that Che did over see the trial and execution of those deemed war criminals after the revolution. How you view the revolution will color whether you see those trials as the carrying out of law or murder.

There is little in Communist revolutionary history that should give one optimism when it comes to their trials.

Yeah, they should have just followed the rule of law and voted Batista out of power.

To say that communism is bad is not the same as saying that what it replaced was good. History is replete with examples of one form of despotism replacing another form of despotism.

Both sides are bad. So vote Batista.

.


0.tqn.com
 
kab
2012-10-08 02:46:31 PM  
You know who else killed a bunch of folks, and became a hero?

/you might have today off because of him.
 
2012-10-08 02:48:48 PM  

Bad_Seed: Cybernetic: Bad_Seed: Ricardo Klement: manimal2878: colinspooky: Was this all true, or the exaggerated rantings of a non fan? Genuine question

It's the view of the Cubans kicked out of Cuba for sure.

The facts are that Che did over see the trial and execution of those deemed war criminals after the revolution. How you view the revolution will color whether you see those trials as the carrying out of law or murder.

There is little in Communist revolutionary history that should give one optimism when it comes to their trials.

Yeah, they should have just followed the rule of law and voted Batista out of power.

To say that communism is bad is not the same as saying that what it replaced was good. History is replete with examples of one form of despotism replacing another form of despotism.

Both sides are bad. So vote Batista.

The great thing about being a western liberal is that you can look down on all other systems and all other people's attempts to change the world - *tut tut* those revolutionaries ended up doing bad things too. They should really have had the wisdom to have been more like us - this kind of moral superiority is a really valuable thing to have.


I didn't realize that the ends justify the means in other parts of the world. I guess the secret police in East Germany are fine because, after all, look at the regime the replaced!
 
2012-10-08 02:53:54 PM  

Bad_Seed: Nabb1: Bad_Seed: The one genuine accomplishment in Che Guevara's life was the mass-murder of defenseless men and boys. Under his own gun dozens died. Under his orders thousands crumpled. At everything else Che Guevara failed abysmally, even comically

Except for that whole Cuban Revolution thing, where him, the Castro brothers and 18 other guys managed to fight their way through the entire island to overthrow Batista's regime. Which is probably the reason why this hombre is in America, writing bad articles for disreputable websites, instead of sitting on his family's plantation oppressing the peasants.

Che was a twisted, murdering asshole. Every revolution has them. Regardless of what you think of the merits of the Revolution, Che was a despicable man who had his men ruthlessly kill, torture and rape for the cause. You can still celebrate the Revolution and condemn Che for the piece of human excrement that he was.

You can have a revolution without killing people?


I see, so you love all that indiscriminate torture and rape because you agree with the politics. Good to know.

You see, this is why Che fans aren't to be taken seriously.
 
2012-10-08 03:10:56 PM  

Ricardo Klement: Bad_Seed: Cybernetic: Bad_Seed: Ricardo Klement: manimal2878: colinspooky: Was this all true, or the exaggerated rantings of a non fan? Genuine question

It's the view of the Cubans kicked out of Cuba for sure.

The facts are that Che did over see the trial and execution of those deemed war criminals after the revolution. How you view the revolution will color whether you see those trials as the carrying out of law or murder.

There is little in Communist revolutionary history that should give one optimism when it comes to their trials.

Yeah, they should have just followed the rule of law and voted Batista out of power.

To say that communism is bad is not the same as saying that what it replaced was good. History is replete with examples of one form of despotism replacing another form of despotism.

Both sides are bad. So vote Batista.

The great thing about being a western liberal is that you can look down on all other systems and all other people's attempts to change the world - *tut tut* those revolutionaries ended up doing bad things too. They should really have had the wisdom to have been more like us - this kind of moral superiority is a really valuable thing to have.

I didn't realize that the ends justify the means in other parts of the world. I guess the secret police in East Germany are fine because, after all, look at the regime the replaced!


Yeah, so we wanted to come and make your blighted lives a bit better. Build schools (seeing as you're all illiterate) and hospitals (because you get no medical care), bring plumbing and electricity and free your from your slave-like servitude. But in order to do that, we first have to get rid of the people in power, and if we tried to do that, people might get hurt. Not to mention, that as we all know power corrupts and revolutions lead to excesses, so that in seizing power we run the risk, ourselves of becoming like the people we replace. Sorry, we just can't justify this. But we want you to know that we empathise very deeply with your current plight. We think about you all the time from the comfort of our warm and well-provisioned homes.

Like, I said. There's nothing quite like being a western liberal. Our capacities for equivocation are extraordinary.
 
2012-10-08 03:20:05 PM  

Nabb1: I see, so you love all that indiscriminate torture and rape because you agree with the politics. Good to know.


You must have read about this in another NewMax article.
 
2012-10-08 03:21:07 PM  

Bad_Seed: Like, I said. There's nothing quite like being a western liberal. Our capacities for equivocation are extraordinary.


Well, sure, but there's no reason to get all rape-y about it and run around torturing and raping the wives and daughters of the people you are targeting just to make a point. Unless you really like rape.

So, uh, do you really like rape?

/The former Czechoslovakia had a bloodless revolution. Yugoslavia, not so much. Apart from that, most of the Iron Curtain came down peaceably. You would have missed out on the rapes.
 
2012-10-08 03:23:20 PM  

Bad_Seed: Nabb1: I see, so you love all that indiscriminate torture and rape because you agree with the politics. Good to know.

You must have read about this in another NewMax article.


No, just have some Cuban expats in my extended family who were there when it all went down. Also studied quite a bit about the Cold War, including Cuba in college. My advisor was actually a full-blown Marxist and Castro fan and he hated Che. He was also a Yankees fan who stood up for Steinbrenner, but at least he admitted the seeming contradiction. But the point is, even Commie Yankee Steinbrenner-loving guys think Che was a murderous thug who deserved his fate. But I'm sure you know it all.
 
2012-10-08 03:46:10 PM  

Nabb1: Bad_Seed: Nabb1: I see, so you love all that indiscriminate torture and rape because you agree with the politics. Good to know.

You must have read about this in another NewMax article.

No, just have some Cuban expats in my extended family who were there when it all went down. Also studied quite a bit about the Cold War, including Cuba in college. My advisor was actually a full-blown Marxist and Castro fan and he hated Che. He was also a Yankees fan who stood up for Steinbrenner, but at least he admitted the seeming contradiction. But the point is, even Commie Yankee Steinbrenner-loving guys think Che was a murderous thug who deserved his fate. But I'm sure you know it all.


Fair enough. I'll note your anecdote about your cousin's, wife's cousin and their unspecified ordeal. It will be filled away in the Bad Things column. Just do be clear, I don't personally care about Che (he's just a man), I've never owned a copy of the famous image, and if you read the thread, I haven't specifically defended him.

Yogoslavia wasn't a revolution, it was a civil war. As for Czechoslovakia, the government realised that the game was up and decided to quite while they were ahead. I have some Eastern European expats in my immediate family who were there when it all went down.
 
2012-10-08 03:47:21 PM  

Nabb1: No, just have some Cuban expats in my extended family who were there when it all went down.


Yeah, as a Floridian I know some expats too, it's not like they have reason or bias to lie. fark them. If they care so much, get the fark out of our country and go fight for your country back in Cuba. I'm tired of those dicks manipulating our political system instead of putting their blood on the line like those that took their country from them.
 
2012-10-08 03:54:45 PM  
Che only has to look smarter than the Tea Party.
 
2012-10-08 04:00:36 PM  
I don't know why everyone hates that Che guy so much. I thought he was pretty good in that Madonna musical.
 
2012-10-08 04:04:19 PM  

manimal2878: Nabb1: No, just have some Cuban expats in my extended family who were there when it all went down.

Yeah, as a Floridian I know some expats too, it's not like they have reason or bias to lie. fark them. If they care so much, get the fark out of our country and go fight for your country back in Cuba. I'm tired of those dicks manipulating our political system instead of putting their blood on the line like those that took their country from them.


i2.photobucket.com

Easy there, fella. Even if what you say is true, that doesn't make Che any less of a nut case psycho rapist.
 
2012-10-08 04:06:11 PM  

Bad_Seed: Nabb1: Bad_Seed: Nabb1: I see, so you love all that indiscriminate torture and rape because you agree with the politics. Good to know.

You must have read about this in another NewMax article.

No, just have some Cuban expats in my extended family who were there when it all went down. Also studied quite a bit about the Cold War, including Cuba in college. My advisor was actually a full-blown Marxist and Castro fan and he hated Che. He was also a Yankees fan who stood up for Steinbrenner, but at least he admitted the seeming contradiction. But the point is, even Commie Yankee Steinbrenner-loving guys think Che was a murderous thug who deserved his fate. But I'm sure you know it all.

Fair enough. I'll note your anecdote about your cousin's, wife's cousin and their unspecified ordeal. It will be filled away in the Bad Things column. Just do be clear, I don't personally care about Che (he's just a man), I've never owned a copy of the famous image, and if you read the thread, I haven't specifically defended him.

Yogoslavia wasn't a revolution, it was a civil war. As for Czechoslovakia, the government realised that the game was up and decided to quite while they were ahead. I have some Eastern European expats in my immediate family who were there when it all went down.


You just criticized me for second hand anecdotal support and turned around and used it yourself? Yes, I guessed you were being pedantic or just more likely trolling. Or you really like rape.
 
2012-10-08 04:13:07 PM  
There's a line in American Reunion where one of the buddies says to Stifler: "You're a dick. But you're OUR dick."

Che, too, was a dick, and your opinion of him depends on whether he was your dick.
 
2012-10-08 04:17:35 PM  

Nabb1: manimal2878: Nabb1: No, just have some Cuban expats in my extended family who were there when it all went down.

Yeah, as a Floridian I know some expats too, it's not like they have reason or bias to lie. fark them. If they care so much, get the fark out of our country and go fight for your country back in Cuba. I'm tired of those dicks manipulating our political system instead of putting their blood on the line like those that took their country from them.

[i2.photobucket.com image 399x309]

Easy there, fella. Even if what you say is true, that doesn't make Che any less of a nut case psycho rapist.


Rapist?
 
2012-10-08 04:32:12 PM  

Nabb1: You just criticized me for second hand anecdotal support and turned around and used it yourself? Yes, I guessed you were being pedantic or just more likely trolling. Or you really like rape.


Bit thick, aren't we? It's called being facetious. That most Eastern European governments relinquished power rather than have it seized from them (Romania being the illustrative exception) is a matter of historical record, my personal anecdote is entirely superfluous. The fact that it's my immediate, rather than extend family who are the source, shows that my anecdote is more reliable than your anecdote. The fact that I used the exact same phrasing as you did should have clued you in that was a joke. But now you've made me ruin the joke by explaining it.

I guess I'm willing to talk about this alleged rape, but you'll need to fill out the anecdote with more details. Did these extended family see Che personally do the raping? Did they see him personally order his men to do the raping? Did he personally encourage them? Did he personally not attempt to stop them? Who in fact carried out the rapes? Was is the guerillas, was it the peasants and assorted poor people, who once used the opportunity to extract revenge against those who formally oppressed them? Was it common criminals who took advantage of the lawlessness and anarchy that accompanies the complete overturn of power? I'm going to have to know these details before I can decide whether or not I like this particular rape. (And he calls me a troll!)

You seem to say that you're problem is with Che personally, not with the revolution per se, so you really have to show how he, personally holds responsibility for the alleged rapes. And, if you could, please try to keep your moral indignation to a minimum. It's doesn't help your case, and it's really quite tiresome.
 
2012-10-08 04:41:20 PM  
My Che shirt.

6 2.bp.blogspot.com 


/ red really isn't my color.
 
2012-10-08 04:46:12 PM  

Bad_Seed: Ricardo Klement: Bad_Seed: Cybernetic: Bad_Seed: Ricardo Klement: manimal2878: colinspooky: Was this all true, or the exaggerated rantings of a non fan? Genuine question

It's the view of the Cubans kicked out of Cuba for sure.

The facts are that Che did over see the trial and execution of those deemed war criminals after the revolution. How you view the revolution will color whether you see those trials as the carrying out of law or murder.

There is little in Communist revolutionary history that should give one optimism when it comes to their trials.

Yeah, they should have just followed the rule of law and voted Batista out of power.

To say that communism is bad is not the same as saying that what it replaced was good. History is replete with examples of one form of despotism replacing another form of despotism.

Both sides are bad. So vote Batista.

The great thing about being a western liberal is that you can look down on all other systems and all other people's attempts to change the world - *tut tut* those revolutionaries ended up doing bad things too. They should really have had the wisdom to have been more like us - this kind of moral superiority is a really valuable thing to have.

I didn't realize that the ends justify the means in other parts of the world. I guess the secret police in East Germany are fine because, after all, look at the regime the replaced!

Yeah, so we wanted to come and make your blighted lives a bit better. Build schools (seeing as you're all illiterate) and hospitals (because you get no medical care), bring plumbing and electricity and free your from your slave-like servitude. But in order to do that, we first have to get rid of the people in power, and if we tried to do that, people might get hurt. Not to mention, that as we all know power corrupts and revolutions lead to excesses, so that in seizing power we run the risk, ourselves of becoming like the people we replace. Sorry, we just can't justify this. But we want you to k ...


And that's why East Germany had no choice but to go with a totalitarian regime that was as oppressive and nasty as West Germany's - people have no choice, they always end up with tyrants in the process of revolution. It's so nice not to have to think. Thank God you're not cursed with being a Western Liberal.
 
2012-10-08 04:48:58 PM  
But this makes you look smart, right?

i.imgur.com
 
2012-10-08 04:51:47 PM  

Ricardo Klement: And that's why East Germany had no choice but to go with a totalitarian regime that was as oppressive and nasty as West Germany's - people have no choice, they always end up with tyrants in the process of revolution. It's so nice not to have to think. Thank God you're not cursed with being a Western Liberal.


Don't blame me, I voted for Trotsky. And you misspelt "military occupation".
 
2012-10-08 04:55:07 PM  
Say what you want about Che and Fidel's politics, but you simply can't dismiss the fact that with a boatload of about 80 men, they defeated a standing army of 40,000, and in the process took down one the most violent and repressive military dictatorships the western hemisphere has ever seen.

No amount of revision will be able to erase that from the history books.
 
2012-10-08 05:07:50 PM  

GAT_00: It's fair to assume at this point that basically everything you see written about Guevara will be wrong. He's probably one of the best examples of history totally distorting what someone did or didn't do. That there is an active campaign to distort anything he did doesn't help the inevitable altered history that gets remembered.


Ayn Rand is also someone who has been distorted but it's by the GOP. At least we have video of her.

Link
 
2012-10-08 05:12:04 PM  

Britney Spear's Speculum: GAT_00: It's fair to assume at this point that basically everything you see written about Guevara will be wrong. He's probably one of the best examples of history totally distorting what someone did or didn't do. That there is an active campaign to distort anything he did doesn't help the inevitable altered history that gets remembered.

Ayn Rand is also someone who has been distorted but it's by the GOP. At least we have video of her.

Link


Link
 
2012-10-08 05:12:35 PM  

Bad_Seed: Ricardo Klement: And that's why East Germany had no choice but to go with a totalitarian regime that was as oppressive and nasty as West Germany's - people have no choice, they always end up with tyrants in the process of revolution. It's so nice not to have to think. Thank God you're not cursed with being a Western Liberal.

Don't blame me, I voted for Trotsky. And you misspelt "military occupation".


I should add; I am a western liberal. I'm part of that lucky elite of humanity who lead a life of unparalleled comfort and luxury. What I don't like is the simplistic and self-righteous sense of morality that so many of my comrades exhibit, where they feel themselves fit to pass judgement on people in unimaginably difficult circumstances, who had to make difficult and ugly choices because those where the only possibilities available to them. Not to mention, how quickly they can turn around and support brutal measures when they feel threatened. (Torture, in Cuba? Surely, you mean enhanced interrogation).
 
2012-10-08 07:29:16 PM  
Youz trollin
files.gamebanana.com
 
2012-10-08 08:01:12 PM  

Bad_Seed: Bad_Seed: Ricardo Klement: And that's why East Germany had no choice but to go with a totalitarian regime that was as oppressive and nasty as West Germany's - people have no choice, they always end up with tyrants in the process of revolution. It's so nice not to have to think. Thank God you're not cursed with being a Western Liberal.

Don't blame me, I voted for Trotsky. And you misspelt "military occupation".

I should add; I am a western liberal. I'm part of that lucky elite of humanity who lead a life of unparalleled comfort and luxury. What I don't like is the simplistic and self-righteous sense of morality that so many of my comrades exhibit, where they feel themselves fit to pass judgement on people in unimaginably difficult circumstances, who had to make difficult and ugly choices because those where the only possibilities available to them. Not to mention, how quickly they can turn around and support brutal measures when they feel threatened. (Torture, in Cuba? Surely, you mean enhanced interrogation).


A sense of perspective... you have it.

I found that reading about the kind of things that went on in the Soviet Union during WWII, and the experiences of Gulag victims (from the 1920s until the 60s), as well as the crossover between them during the War, was very illustrative of exactly the kind of "difficult and ugly" choices you're talking about. Even knowing he was a monster, you find yourself empathizing with Stalin for the almost impossible situation he was in.

At some point you have a Eureka moment when you realize what making the least-bad choice really means, when the spectrum of choices isn't from a First World Problems meme.
 
2012-10-08 08:17:37 PM  

erik-k: A sense of perspective... you have it.

I found that reading about the kind of things that went on in the Soviet Union during WWII, and the experiences of Gulag victims (from the 1920s until the 60s), as well as the crossover between them during the War, was very illustrative of exactly the kind of "difficult and ugly" choices you're talking about. Even knowing he was a monster, you find yourself empathizing with Stalin for the almost impossible situation he was in.

At some point you have a Eureka moment when you realize what making the least-bad choice really means, when the spectrum of choices isn't from a First World Problems meme.


Uh--huh. Right. Starving some 4 million Ukrainians is just one of those eggs you have to break to make an omelette.
 
2012-10-08 08:41:35 PM  
Somewhere in my boxes of clothing that I've never bothered to get down out of the attic, I have a Che t-shirt. Me, with my politics somewhere over in William F. Buckley territory. My sister got it for me straight from Cuba (is that a trolltastic gift or what?), so it's got way more street cred.
 
2012-10-08 09:24:52 PM  
images4.cpcache.com

Got to love the man who was a brutal killer, loved in pop culture. He would have hated it.
 
2012-10-08 09:25:15 PM  
This is my Che shirt.

img.photobucket.com 

Ay carumba meng!
 
2012-10-08 09:26:55 PM  
erik-k
I found that reading about the kind of things that went on in the Soviet Union during WWII, and the experiences of Gulag victims (from the 1920s until the 60s), as well as the crossover between them during the War, was very illustrative of exactly the kind of "difficult and ugly" choices you're talking about. Even knowing he was a monster, you find yourself empathizing with Stalin for the almost impossible situation he was in.

At some point you have a Eureka moment when you realize what making the least-bad choice really means, when the spectrum of choices isn't from a First World Problems meme.


To no small extent, the Bolsheviks created the problems that made their solutions 'necessary'. There was a moment around 1920-1922 when Europe could have gone either way- but the Bolsheviks crushed all dissent and took dictatorial power, and what started as a revolutionary wave became just another round of factions carving up the world and squabbling over resources and servants.

"They had no choice" (and its variant, "They were under simultaneous attack by 19 countries!") is just an excuse by people who want to change the world overnight, by bashing it into their vision of the right shape; the sort who talk about "The People" but care nothing for actual living ones. I can't hate them as much as I pity them, but it's a tight race.
 
2012-10-08 10:35:39 PM  

kg2095: manduwala: My communist (real communist, not milquetoast American communist) bought me a Che Guevara T-Shirt for my twenty fifth birthday. Ten years later I have yet to forgive him, it also turned all my red shirts pink.

You have your own communist? Where did you get him?


Costco has them in four-packs, duh.
 
2012-10-08 10:37:21 PM  

Counter_Intelligent: manduwala: My communist (real communist, not milquetoast American communist) bought me a Che Guevara T-Shirt for my twenty fifth birthday.

You have a communist?


My commie drives a nova.

/Obscure, even for fark
 
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