This sounds suspiciously like "What Dreams May Come" a -- wait for it, book/film about a dead man in Heaven. Even with the butterflies and clouds like a Kinkade painting and women in soft peasanty dresses.

IMDB

boyofd: "Trusting your own perception" is the first step down the road to all kinds of wrong conclusions. Until you understand just how easily your own perceptions can be fooled and manipulated (or just how often they are fooled and manipulated during the course of an ordinary day), you are just going to spin your wheels. I guess my metaphors are at a crossroads.

Yes. The human mind is an extremely large and mysterious place. I have experimented with my mind (and not the usual way with excessive drug use) in many ways and seen and speculate and on occasion believe things that would knock most people's socks off... but I do not claim my experiences to be proof of anything beyond what my mind presented to me... as an individual.

This doctor may not have had a Christian afterlife truly in his heart before his experience but he describes himself as a "faithful Christian" then goes on to explain that he was more or less just going through the motions. After a lifetime of having that dialogue repeated to you is it not possible that at the moment of "death" that those types of ideas and sentiments come to the surface?

I've long held a theory that heaven, hell and any other variation on the afterlife is a final release of all that intense thought on the subject. A final release of the hopes and fears we've acquired through our life. Like when you have dreams about work or being tormented by an ex or a bully.

A good man (or one who thinks he is a good man) who believes or has at least had the idea of a Christian heaven repeatedly injected into his psyche has a flash of that heaven the instant before full brain death. That instance becomes an eternity because that mind is no more. Time loses all meaning.

An evil man (or again one who has come to the conclusion he is an evil man) and has been indoctrinated to believe there is a punishment waiting for him after his death would have the same experience except he's got little dudes in red pajamas sticking pitchforks up his ass.

It is, in one of my many elaborate speculations on the matter, a possibility. However it is just that. Speculation. This man as a doctor of the brain (well nerves... neurology is actually about nerves, not just the brain) should share this type of pragmatic view as opposed to blindly believing he was actually frolicking amongst cosmic butterflies.

But I would never, even if I had credentials behind me, claim for a second that is the absolute truth... because I don't know and have many other ideas on the subject. I also don't fully discount that perhaps when I croak I'll end up on some cloud with a judgmental jerkbag named Peter deciding whether or not to open the gates or send me down to the multicocked rapephant for eternity just because I support the right of gays to get married... but that seems more unlikely than my first scenario.

I drunk what: i'm sure there is a perfectly good scientific explanation for this

There are several good theories but, because of the difficulty and ethics of reproducing this, we may never be able to get definitive answers.

/I know ... you were hoping that because science cannot answer it then we will all start believing in magic.
//Sorry. The god-of-the-gaps is near death himself and I say good riddance

ConConHead: This sounds suspiciously like "What Dreams May Come" a -- wait for it, book/film about a dead man in Heaven. Even with the butterflies and clouds like a Kinkade painting and women in soft peasanty dresses.

IMDB

I've actually often thought if there was or is such thing as an after life, I'd like it to be like that. My own personal reality to create? Great, sign me up.

I'll be the big flaming eye-ball above Barad-dûr.

Quantum Apostrophe: falcon176: Fark is an Atheist forum with a daily Atheist circlejerk, check again.

What a burden you carry.

I don't consider my massive penis a burden

Farking Canuck: //Sorry. The god-of-the-gaps is near death himself and I say good riddance

Kinda like the people who doubt say consciousness and higher logic must reside in a different part of the brain, despite all previous evidence to the contrary, and no confirming evidence since? It's the fingernails! Gotta be!

ELF Radio: RAAAARGH SHUT UP ALL YOU WEAK, SNIVELING BABIES WHO THINK LIFE HAS MEANING OR SOME GAY SHIAT LIKE THAT. WE ARE ANIMAL-MACHINES THAT SPRANG INEXPLICABLY FROM NOTHING AND WE EAT AND FARK AND DIE AND THAT IS ALL. NOTHING ELSE EXISTS AND ANYONE WHO SAYS OTHER WISE IS A LAME DICK WHO CANT DEAL WITH REALITY.

WHY DONT YOU FAIRIES GO BECOME REPUBLICANS AND VOTE FOR MITT ROMENY IF YOU BELIEVE THIS NANCY QUEER AND HIS HALLUCINATROY BULLSHIAT.



Strong convincing words from someone who claims to have "ridden the mighty moon worm."

_{/HALLUCINATROY!}

Millennium: xanadian: FTFA: In the fall of 2008, however, after seven days in a coma during which the human part of my brain, the neocortex, was inactivated

So...PART of the brain, not the WHOLE brain.

Got it.

There is some scientific interest here: the part of his brain that shut down is the part that, according to our current understanding, should have been responsible for experiences like this. That doesn't necessarily mean his interpretation of what happened is correct, of course. But it does mean that we've missed something: if what he saw was a dream (which I think it was), then something can give rise to dreams which we hadn't considered. That has implications for neuroscience.

I think that's what has me so... not angry, I can't quite think of the right word (stupid cold, can't think straight). Experiences such as this COULD lead to greater understanding of how our brains work, but when they're chalked up to a religious or supernatural experience that potential for discovery flies out the window. Religion is such a cop out for a lot of people. In the realm of science "because Jesus" is an especially unacceptable explanation for observed phenomena.

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Farking Canuck: //Sorry. The god-of-the-gaps is near death himself and I say good riddance

Kinda like the people who doubt say consciousness and higher logic must reside in a different part of the brain, despite all previous evidence to the contrary, and no confirming evidence since? It's the fingernails! Gotta be!

I do not make any claims about the human brain. My degree is not in any field remotely related to biology.

I do, however, know that accurate perception of reality is not the brain's strong suit on a good day ... much less when it is deprived of O₂. I do know that we have massive evidence to show that the human mind is deceived so easily that it is amazing we are able to function. Most of what we think we see, hear, or know is what our brains have stitched together from sensory inputs combined with all the information that has been stored in our heads. Speaking of which, how many years has this author (of a new book ... please buy it now!!) been going to church?

How the brain works is completely irrelevant to the conclusion that this author's 'evidence' is worthless. Note, that is not saying that it is possible that his story is not 100% accurate ... it is saying that it is worthless as evidence supporting the claim that magic is real.

BraveNewCheneyWorld: boyofd: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Poppa Boner: The only people who know what happens after you die are dead.

You could always invest your time into learning astral projection. The information on how to do so is out there for free, if you want to make an actual study of the phenomena yourself (that is, if you trust your own perception). If you're willing to dedicate a couple hours a day over the course of a year at most to discover the answer to the biggest mystery in the universe, you could do worse.

"Trusting your own perception" is the first step down the road to all kinds of wrong conclusions. Until you understand just how easily your own perceptions can be fooled and manipulated (or just how often they are fooled and manipulated during the course of an ordinary day), you are just going to spin your wheels. I guess my metaphors are at a crossroads.

Like I said, it's illegal and unethical to bring other people, even if they willingly volunteer to the brink of death. Do you propose some alternative experiment?

No, really, what evidence within the realm of law would be acceptable as proof?

hubiestubert: *snip* In the end, I know I got lucky. If you put credence to the Many Worlds hypothesis, there were a LOT of Hubies out there who didn't make it. I can certainly see how my brain translated the experience into a lot of paths to choose from, and the effort to survive the mess as being as much luck of the draw, as a fight to remain and keep the damn heart going. At the same time, as a Buddhist, I see it as a choice to remain, a choice to not move on. As a Buddhist, it can be both, and in the end, I survived an event that kills 99.6% of folks within the first 20 minutes, and it was over 40 before I got to the right hospital. Aortic dissections are no joke, and I burned up a lot of luck, as well as a lot of Western Mass' blood supply 15 years ago. It is hard to not get a little contemplative after such a thing.

1) If the MWH is true, then there are some worlds where you don't exist/have died, and some where you are still alive.

2) You can't experience the worlds where you are dead.

3) Therefore, you will experience the longest life that it is possible for you to experience.

Farking Canuck: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Farking Canuck: //Sorry. The god-of-the-gaps is near death himself and I say good riddance

Kinda like the people who doubt say consciousness and higher logic must reside in a different part of the brain, despite all previous evidence to the contrary, and no confirming evidence since? It's the fingernails! Gotta be!

I do not make any claims about the human brain. My degree is not in any field remotely related to biology.

I do, however, know that accurate perception of reality is not the brain's strong suit on a good day ... much less when it is deprived of O2. I do know that we have massive evidence to show that the human mind is deceived so easily that it is amazing we are able to function. Most of what we think we see, hear, or know is what our brains have stitched together from sensory inputs combined with all the information that has been stored in our heads. Speaking of which, how many years has this author (of a new book ... please buy it now!!) been going to church?

How the brain works is completely irrelevant to the conclusion that this author's 'evidence' is worthless. Note, that is not saying that it is possible that his story is not 100% accurate ... it is saying that it is worthless as evidence supporting the claim that magic is real.

Guy had been Christian/spiritual-ish until 2000/early 2000s until a incident basically broke what weak/caring faith the dude had while reaffirming what he had thought/published/believed neuroscience had to say about the brain and mind (the reductionist materialist theory). Which is what the guy has said time and time and time and time again. Once he came out of his coma and was able to, he wrote down his experience without looking up anything about NDEs or anything of the sort and then went to find out what happened. He went to his colleges with his experience and his medical situation and they basically told him that they had absolutely no clue what went on or how it would have happened, since meningitis attacks the very things that would (as science has "explained" it) make him be able to have this experience in the first place.

You act as if the guy was dragged off the street and asked to start blabbing into a microphone about what he saw after he just cracked a fresh whippet. He's a well respected and published neuroscientist who's been around for quite a while. He had a experience that basically all his training and his belief system said he could not and should not have happened.

Tyrone Slothrop: hubiestubert: *snip* In the end, I know I got lucky. If you put credence to the Many Worlds hypothesis, there were a LOT of Hubies out there who didn't make it. I can certainly see how my brain translated the experience into a lot of paths to choose from, and the effort to survive the mess as being as much luck of the draw, as a fight to remain and keep the damn heart going. At the same time, as a Buddhist, I see it as a choice to remain, a choice to not move on. As a Buddhist, it can be both, and in the end, I survived an event that kills 99.6% of folks within the first 20 minutes, and it was over 40 before I got to the right hospital. Aortic dissections are no joke, and I burned up a lot of luck, as well as a lot of Western Mass' blood supply 15 years ago. It is hard to not get a little contemplative after such a thing.

1) If the MWH is true, then there are some worlds where you don't exist/have died, and some where you are still alive.

2) You can't experience the worlds where you are dead.

3) Therefore, you will experience the longest life that it is possible for you to experience.

It's called the anthropic principle.

The Billdozer: You act as if the guy was dragged off the street and asked to start blabbing into a microphone about what he saw after he just cracked a fresh whippet. He's a well respected and published neuroscientist who's been around for quite a while. He had a experience that basically all his training and his belief system said he could not and should not have happened.

No, I present two other possible explanations for his experience: money and religious programming.

Unlike believers who want this to be true so bad that they will not consider other explanations, those of us who are actually interested in the truth consider all possibilities.

Babwa Wawa: xanadian: So...PART of the brain, not the WHOLE brain.

Indeed. A fascinating crock of self-affirming sh*te.

Yes, but you can mad money selling book to Evangelicals. There is a whole creepy subgenre about this.

/if this happened to me I'd do my 7 days in hell as the book

JuddyBuddy77: DMT

I was going to say the same thing. Sounds exactly like my most intense DMT experience. But I wonder if this guy, with his rightward turn toward believing it was "heaven" at the end of the article, would dismiss these experiences since they don't line up with his pre-determined outcome.

I mean, if you read any of the druggy lit you'll find something in common between this story and the most lucid of their claims.

Farking Canuck: The Billdozer: You act as if the guy was dragged off the street and asked to start blabbing into a microphone about what he saw after he just cracked a fresh whippet. He's a well respected and published neuroscientist who's been around for quite a while. He had a experience that basically all his training and his belief system said he could not and should not have happened.

No, I present two other possible explanations for his experience: money and religious programming.

Unlike believers who want this to be true so bad that they will not consider other explanations, those of us who are actually interested in the truth consider all possibilities.

Money: Seems like a doctor of neuroscience may have a bit of cash in the bank. Unless the guy is just hyper-greedy and a great liar, he wouldn't be wanting for US currency. Besides, for someone who is a scientist, one would assume the easiest and most painless route to a quick buck would be to write a book about the reductionist materialist theory of brain = mind. It would make him more popular in his academic circles then this would.


Religious programming: Possible; but for someone of little or not faith who is in a field that some would think would directly destroy or at least discourage any kind of religious or spiritual faith at all (especially the standard Judeo-Christian concepts that most atheist prose seems to pit itself against), I would think the last thing he would visualize if he could consciously do it would be something he had little to no faith in at all. Even if it were subconscious, you would see more events of atheists/materialists having "near death-bed conversions" when they came anywhere near close to death since their brain would start the "Oh, looks like I'm gonna die" process. Also, his experience was not of an angel grabbing him and putting him at the gates of Heaven and St Peter judging his worth and seeing all his deceased friends/family members in a white-bread version of heaven. It was consistent with some of the standard aspects of NDEs that have been reported ever since ancient Greece.

Do I know if the guy is full of ish or not? I have no clue. But considering his background, what he had and what he experienced, I'd be lying to the scientific side of myself if I didn't take an interest in his story.

Magnanimous_J: I don't get that. If we evolved all of our traits as advantages to increase our odds of procreation, what evolutionary advantage does ease of dying provide? How could we evolve a trait that almost always immediately precedes the death of the person exhibiting it?

I wonder if it's more of a remnant of the intrauterine, physiological mechanisms that allow us to bring the chaos of our developing brain together rather than the nonsensical notion of having evolved physiological mechanisms that help us undure the chaotic, chemical breakdown of death.

Farking Canuck: I do, however, know that accurate perception of reality is not the brain's strong suit on a good day ... much less when it is deprived of O2. I do know that we have massive evidence to show that the human mind is deceived so easily that it is amazing we are able to function.

But perception of complex imagery and concepts while the parts of the brain known to be integral for the perception of complex imagery and concepts are not functioning, casts significant doubt on the validity of decades of science pointing strongly to those regions of the brain being responsible for such. So really the question is, are we so incompetent when it comes to assessing the functions of regions of the brain, or is it equally possible that there's more to our mental structure than can be observed by traditional means?

Farking Canuck: Most of what we think we see, hear, or know is what our brains have stitched together from sensory inputs combined with all the information that has been stored in our heads.

I've never been confused by a dream or any drug induced phenomena while back in my present mind into believing that it was a real experience, have you?

Farking Canuck: Speaking of which, how many years has this author (of a new book ... please buy it now!!) been going to church?

Did he see anything that appeared biblical?

Farking Canuck: How the brain works is completely irrelevant to the conclusion that this author's 'evidence' is worthless.

I disagree, when decades of research could potentially be thrown out the window with his experiences of conscious thought, during an event where his consciousness processing grey matter is in effect, not functioning, you can draw a few conclusions depending on your dealings with people. He is a liar and knows it, He believes he's telling the truth, but it is a false memory, He is telling the truth. As odds go, it seems most likely to believe that there is incorrect information at first glance. However, what does he stand to gain in each scenario? Yes, he's published a book, but as far as book sales go, and his education as far as a neurosurgeon, it seems like he's risking maybe a year or 2 of income at the expense of the income derived over the rest of his life, IF his book does fairly well. Not quite the decision I'd expect from someone who's dedicated their life to the study of neurosurgery, and only a 2/3rd chance of true belief(which I'm sure he's calculated), so now we're most likely down to 66/33. Being a neurosurgeon, who has an education in the field, do you think he'd bank his future on a 66/33 shot to gain an extra 2 years of income at the expense of the rest of his lifetime of earnings? It seems unlikely to me, but yes, still possible. However If I was a betting man, I'd go with honesty that has been verified to the best of his ability, which is far more compelling than any argument presented here.

Millennium
Not by your model, but your model excludes quite a lot. It has value in some particular fields of study, but is woefully incomplete as a guiding principle for life in general.

IOW "Nuh uh!"

Sounds like an Ayahuasca trip to me. That or a dream. What probably happened is that these experiences happened as his brain was coming online again. It just seemed like they happened over a long period of time. DMT can cause that. I was watching a DMT documentary on Netflix called The Spirit Molecule, and this Native American Shaman was unconscious for fifteen minutes. The first question he asked when he came to was how long he had been out. In his mind he had been gone for a thousand years, but in the real world it was only fifteen minutes. So yeah, cool story, bro, but it's entirely explainable yet altogether fascinating. Fascinating like reading a trip report on Erowid.

I'd believe him if he also wasn't breathing for a week.

stainedglassdoll: Didn't read the whole thread, so apologies if it's been posted already, but I came across this article today and think this is an appropriate place to drop it. (from Link)

"You want a physicist to speak at your funeral. You want the physicist to talk to your grieving family about the conservation of energy, so they will understand that your energy has not died. You want the physicist to remind your sobbing mother...etc

I want no such thing. I want to die lonnnnng after my mother dies!

Some people have reported frightening experiences, but these stories are not as common as the positive ones we are familiar with.

CSB: I have a medical condition that causes me to occasionally pass out. When I do, I almost always have the same 'vision'. It's very scary. I'm under water, in a vortex, with little demonic looking critters , holding onto my feet, trying to keep me from swimming to the surface. In the end I always break free and rise to the top, just as I return to consciousness.

Being medically trained, logically I realize that the vision is produced by my hypoxic brain and probably has no particular meaning. But it still weirds me out for a while.

I was raised Protestant and still *mostly* subscribe to that belief system. The visions haven't caused me to question my faith. I try to keep it in perspective. But having my heart stop several times a year has inspired me to keep the ones I love close, and to try to be good to people.

The Billdozer: Do I know if the guy is full of ish or not? I have no clue. But considering his background, what he had and what he experienced, I'd be lying to the scientific side of myself if I didn't take an interest in his story.

There are too many "reasonable doubts", to use a legal term, to give his "evidence" any credit. Sure you can look at it and say "that's interesting" or "I wonder if he's telling the truth" or even "I wonder if that really happened to him".

But suggesting his recollection is any form of evidence is just confirmation bias from those who desperately want it to be true.

TardiveDyskinesia
CSB: I have a medical condition that causes me to occasionally pass out. When I do, I almost always have the same 'vision'. It's very scary. I'm under water, in a vortex, with little demonic looking critters , holding onto my feet, trying to keep me from swimming to the surface. In the end I always break free and rise to the top, just as I return to consciousness.

The fun part is trying to figure out if the vision occurs in real-time or if your brain constructs it when you wake up, or maybe even as you recall it afterward.

RanDomino: TardiveDyskinesia
CSB: I have a medical condition that causes me to occasionally pass out. When I do, I almost always have the same 'vision'. It's very scary. I'm under water, in a vortex, with little demonic looking critters , holding onto my feet, trying to keep me from swimming to the surface. In the end I always break free and rise to the top, just as I return to consciousness.

The fun part is trying to figure out if the vision occurs in real-time or if your brain constructs it when you wake up, or maybe even as you recall it afterward.

This is the best argument presented so far. Previous entries need not apply.

There is a long-term study underway in hospitals to hopefully shed more light on his subject. Articles of note have been placed in emergency rooms that can only be seen from the perspective of the ceiling. If NDE'rs can identify some of these objects, then will know that there is some validity to their claims.

 

I thought you got psychic powers from being in a coma? Right?

I've been in heaven and the women there don't wear any clothes
And the beer is free

RanDomino: TardiveDyskinesia
CSB: I have a medical condition that causes me to occasionally pass out. When I do, I almost always have the same 'vision'. It's very scary. I'm under water, in a vortex, with little demonic looking critters , holding onto my feet, trying to keep me from swimming to the surface. In the end I always break free and rise to the top, just as I return to consciousness.

The fun part is trying to figure out if the vision occurs in real-time or if your brain constructs it when you wake up, or maybe even as you recall it afterward.

I wonder about those things too. I wish it was possible to replay it in a fully conscious state, I'd love to analyze it further. Why is my vision always the same? What scraps does my mind cobble together to create it? How far is my sense of time distorted? Why do I, a generally positive person, have such hellish visions?

The human brain is such an enigma...

Mugato: logistic: Although I considered myself a faithful Christian

Loses any trace of credibility at this precise point. Not arguing one way or another, but his opinion is nixed by this statement.

You didn't finish the sentence. I was so more in name than in actual belief. So according to the Bible, he wouldn't be in heaven, he'd be in Hell!

/how come no one has near death experiences of Hell, anyway?

Some do. Or claim to at least.

Touching Heaven and Hell

Andromeda: CSB: I had a non-religious friend who I respected to the utmost and had a "life after death" experience in Vietnam when for a few minutes he was critically brain dead. He would be driven to tears trying to explain it because a lot of it he didn't understand, but there were strange details like how he thought he smelled bread baking and there were relatives who died years ago there, but when he was given the chance to return he took it then woke up in the hospital again (though he wondered for years afterwards if it was worth it considering how much rehabilitating pain he had from his injuries).

Guy was, as I said earlier, not religious so he willingly acknowledged it could all just be his brain shutting down... but he could never quite believe it because then why would he be given the choice to return? Weird thing to put in a shut-down mode.

Friend died a few years ago in a heart attack, so I've always wondered a bit about that since as he's the only person I've known personally to have such an experience- and then not cloud it with Judeo-Christian overtones to boot. If nothing else though it's consolation to me to know that when it hit he recognized what was happening and wasn't afraid.

My dad was in a coma for a few weeks. At one point, he had a heart attack, coded, and was deceased for 30 minutes. They managed to resuscitate him. I was sitting at his side when he came out of his coma, and I'll never forget his first words. "I died". It was all he could barely squeak out. Over the next days, weeks, and months, he shared his near death experience with me- and he is/was an atheist. Interestingly enough, he didn't go to heaven. He was pretty damn sure he was in hell, or at least on his way. I found all of this fascinating. He certainly believes something happened. I'd like to believe there's something after, but my own jury will be out until I hit that point.

/my own CSB

Glenechocreek: There is a long-term study underway in hospitals to hopefully shed more light on his subject. Articles of note have been placed in emergency rooms that can only be seen from the perspective of the ceiling. If NDE'rs can identify some of these objects, then will know that there is some validity to their claims.

The AWARE study. This thing has been all over the map, from its gonna prove NDEs are real to that's not the point of it to its just one small component of it to it is destined to fail because of the focus on the symbols instead of what else can be verified to a couple books that are due out that are from the doctor during the study (Sam Parina) that are really vague on what they found but don't look like they got any target hits. I think the main thing around it is going to be the ethics behind organ donation, but that's just my thought.

aelat: Toward the beginning of my adventure, I was in a place of clouds. Big, puffy, pink-white ones that showed up sharply against the deep blue-black skHigher than the clouds-immeasurably higher-flocks of transparent, shimmering beings arced across the sky, leaving long, streamerlike lines behind them.

This is the most concerning part to me. Not only did he experience heaven, in his estimation, but he experienced the traditional description of heaven. He admits he was born and raised Christian, and remarkably his near-death experience happens to be exactly like everything he was (probably) told it would be like since he was a child. Angels? Check. Choirs? Check.

It makes me think about the rare times I actually take naps during the day. I'll sleep for maybe an hour or two, but I'll sometimes dream like I've been in school all day (high-school, sometimes, which is amusing since that's long-past), or at work all day. I know I couldn't possibly have dreamt a full 8-hour workday in the 90 minutes I was a sleep, but it sure feels like it. Why couldn't the same thing happened to him? 

Neat story regardless, just seems way too convenient.

This is the most concerning part to me:

His book, Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife, will be published by Simon & Schuster on Oct. 23, 2012.

Markoff_Cheney: i can only hope that my brother went to that place a year and a month ago.
i can only hope i get to see him there when i am done.

No one really knows. But anything is possible.

nmemkha: I find Atheists interesting. They dismiss anything that does not fit their narrow worldview out-of-hand and are generally mocking and condescending to the views of others.

That is not correct. We tend to dismiss anything that cannot be substantiated with actual verifiable evidence.

Just because something is written in some old book does not make it true. Any Tom, Dick or Harry could have written it.

Quantum Apostrophe: Keigh: Quantum Apostrophe: Where are the new souls coming from?

i have a theory for that. At the death of the human body, the soul splits into innumerable bits which go back into the "supply" and meld up with other bits of souls. This is why so many people can claim to be famous people. They all have a bit of that "soul"

disclaimer: this is "My" religious belief, ymmv.

Here's what I believe. You mix enough variety and quantity of atoms in a certain pattern and it can become self-referential and self-aware. As long as something like a star supplies energy to the system that allows such patterns to exist, there you are.

You are born, the processor gets more and more complex and can process more and of its own memories and you slowly become self-aware. Then you age and the systems that are designed to just keep you going to reproduction age fall apart and you slowly forget and get slower.

There was no you before, and there will be no you after. That's all.

That is the same level of ignorance that religious types display.

The only correct answer on the topic of an afterlife considering the total lack of verifiable evidence is 'I don't know'.

Erm, i'm sorry if people misunderstood my intentional snark and thought my capslock rant was in earnest. I was basically mocking the atheists here who read the first paragraph and scream "bullshiat!" at the man's claim.

Look, i don't know if an afterlife exists, but i hope it does. It sounds neat. As an agnostic, i'm not sold on Christian dogma, but neither am i sold on the knee-jerk atheist position that this question is settled, science has decided, end of story. Not only is it logically ludicrous, but it's depressingly cynical. I'm not saying we should be doe-eyed optimists, but there's something creepy about atheists strutting around trumpeting their embrace of oblivion.

My atheist friends say that they just can't imagine an afterlife where things are just "given" or "handed" to them, a fairytale that just exists like free birthday cake. But then, i would imagine that this life is the same -- we didn't work and design our circulatory systems or the planet or any of the incredible systems that make life possible. It was all just a given. To me, a universe where life is eternal is equally as likely as one where life is ephemeral. The fact that life exists at all is beyond comprehension. When atheists smugly assert that "oh, particles colliding will just lead to consciousness somehow, no big deal" are missing something.

ELF Radio: As an agnostic, i'm not sold on Christian dogma, but neither am i sold on the knee-jerk atheist position that this question is settled, science has decided, end of story. Not only is it logically ludicrous, but it's depressingly cynical. I'm not saying we should be doe-eyed optimists, but there's something creepy about atheists strutting around trumpeting their embrace of oblivion.

You know how I know you have no idea what the null hypothesis is?

crazyeddie: ELF Radio: As an agnostic, i'm not sold on Christian dogma, but neither am i sold on the knee-jerk atheist position that this question is settled, science has decided, end of story. Not only is it logically ludicrous, but it's depressingly cynical. I'm not saying we should be doe-eyed optimists, but there's something creepy about atheists strutting around trumpeting their embrace of oblivion.

You know how I know you have no idea what the null hypothesis is?

Want to know how the rest of us know that you don't?

In practice, using a single dataset to evaluate or test a large number of different null hypotheses that are in fact true will lead to erroneous conclusions unless appropriate corrections are made to the testing procedure

He hasn't made an assumption based on the concept.

FloydA: That's not "heaven,"

damn