robohobo: For all the crybabies in this thread.
Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Langston: Interesting article. Good find, subbyYes, interesting. However, the cynic in me notes that he is writing a book and needs to publicize it. Correlation =/ causation, but still....[cdn.thedailybeast.com image 201x301] Proof of Heaven by Eben Alexander, M.D.To be published by Simon & Schuster, Inc..Copyright (c) 2012 by Eben Alexander III, M.D.
nmemkha: miscreant: a good number of posters have engaged you in very reasoned discussion.And I answered them reasonably (just I am answering you know). What is your point?
colon_pow: for some, it is of utmost importance that there exists no god, no afterlife, no soul, etc.articles like this will keep them up at night.
miscreant: nmemkha: miscreant: a good number of posters have engaged you in very reasoned discussion.And I answered them reasonably (just I am answering you know). What is your point?Well, let's see. You started the thread by calling atheists assholes (albeit indirectly so you could claim innocence), then you got called on it and pointed to the one guy spewing vitriol in all caps as some sort of proof that atheists were assholes. I pointed out that you were concentrating on one guy in a thread full of atheists, and that a good number of atheists had responded to you with quite reasonably and you were only paying attention to the one loud mouth idiot, which would seem to indicate a confirmation bias on your part... not to mention proving your contention that all atheists are assholes to be bullshiat.
elchip: When Christians have near-death experiences, they go to heaven and see Jesus.When Jews have near-death experiences, they go to the world-to-come and see Moses.When Muslims have near-death experiences, they go to Jannah and see Muhammad.When Hindus have near-death experiences, they achieve Moksha and are one with Brahman.When Buddhists have near-death experiences, they achieve Nirvana and meet Buddha.When Mormons have near-death experiences, they become gods of their own planets.Which leads me to believe one of three possibilities.1) There is a scientific explanation for it all.2) The Unitarian Universalists are right, and each religion is one of many spokes on a wheel that are connected to the same place in the end3) Either the Christians or the Muslims are right, and Satan/Shaitan is deceiving the followers of all other religions with visions of near-death experiences to make them think their religion is right.
Melvin Lovecraft: My opinion:I once had a motorcycle accident that left me comatose for about a week. I don't remember a thing about it; my last memory was playing pool in a bar with a girl from Connecticut who had an awesome rack and I was winning. The next thing I knew, a week was gone and I was badly injured. There were no visions, fairies, butterflies or Jesus...nothing. (The loss of time was a bit frightening at first, but I got over it.) When I awoke, I thought, briefly, that I was in Hell, as my ex wife was there, hovering over me. She said the doctors didn't fix my broken stuff for about 8 hours after I came in due to a severe closed head injury and it was unclear if I was going to survive. I guess that gives me a near death experience.The article guy says he had a near death experience. I can understand that. I can also understand that his credibility was shot as soon as he said he was a Christian (practicing or otherwise). What I can't understand are those who claim to have been "dead dead", as if they actually died and came back. I want to go on record as saying that doesn't happen. We may think that our machines can tell if something is dead or not, but we're wrong. Know how I know that? Because dead things don't come back to life. They just don't. That's what "dead" means. So anyone who says "I was dead and came back!" wasn't dead. Somewhere in their body the spark of life (for lack of a better term) was not extinguished. If it were, they would still be dead.I remember reading an article once (probably here on Fark) that likened our brains to a computer. We can store vast amounts of data, both tangible and dreamy, but when the plug is pulled, it's all gone. When we die, our hard drive doesn't magically join a LAN of another consciousness.Would life after death be awesome? Of course it would! It would make this terrestrial life seem not so...final. And it goes without saying that I could be wrong, and I kind of hope I am. But, it does pre ...
bogey: After reading this guy's resume I seriously doubt he's doing this to sell books or make money. He's already well paid and professionally respected. Opening himself up to ridicule by his peers for a few bucks makes no sense. I have no idea what happened to this guy but I have no problem believing he is sincere.
Poppa Boner: The only people who know what happens after you die are dead. This guy wasn't dead. I also don't count folks whose systems completely shut down but turned back on as people who have been dead. If they were dead they'd be dead... now and forever. So unless ya'll have an inter-dimensional long distance plan to chat with those who have passed just accept that there are things in the universe that we will never know as long as we are stuck in these bags of meat we call bodies. Just tried to find a nice slice of the world where you can be content, be nice to each other and STFU.Peace out.
Poppa Boner: And I'd like to say the reason this angers me and why I bothered logging in is because this is being spun as PROOF.
golden goat: Hmm, a couple of CTs at fixed time points doesn't indicate that his brain is always "off." The fact he experienced anything is proof that his brain was working in some capacity.
Queensowntalia: czetie: There's nothing in this article or any other similar account that is more compelling than a dream.Who says dreams can't be real?I had a dream last night Johnny Depp and Hugh Jackman were taking turns giving me massages./I want to believe
Poppa Boner: bogey: After reading this guy's resume I seriously doubt he's doing this to sell books or make money. He's already well paid and professionally respected. Opening himself up to ridicule by his peers for a few bucks makes no sense. I have no idea what happened to this guy but I have no problem believing he is sincere.I do not question the man's sincerity.
Cheeseburger: but there's a difference between evidence and proof.
nmemkha: Well said.
Poppa Boner: Cheeseburger: but there's a difference between evidence and proof.*facepalm*nmemkha: Well said.Thank you. And really I've got no problem with you or anyone really... just as long as the lines of communication can stay open. We need to learn from each other or we aren't gonna anywhere.Anyway I've completely been ignoring what I intended to do today so I should get to work.
JungleBoogie: angry bunny: I fear dying. Alot. I fear it no matter the outcome.Look, here's a simple fact: We did not create ourselves. The machine did. By machine, I mean universe. It organized itself into the galaxies, stars, the planets. It organized itself into the earth. The ball of gas and dust came together. It organized itself into the magma, the rocks, the early atmosphere, the early lifeform, the dinosaurs, and finally us.The basic principles of the underlying fabric of the universe have driven it to form into what it is today. And it's continuing to organize itself. Into what, who knows.We're part of something much, much MUCH bigger. The basic fabric of the universe organized itself into us. Take gods, God out of it for a moment. This is what the science tells us.The machine has organized itself into us, and everything we see around us.Can an inanimate machine organize itself into something conscious and intelligent? I don't know. Is there some tendency towards evolution into consciousness in the universe? Something which drives the underlying fabric to form into consciousness? It certainly happened here. Patterns tend to repeat in the universe.
BraveNewCheneyWorld: Farking Canuck: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Farking Canuck: You are upset that we are not considering your evidence because we are attacking it.Nope, just the manner in which you attack it, which is directly analogous to the reasoning presented by creationists.Saying that over and over does not make it true.Creationists do not consider evidence ... you are using an unethical argument technique called Association Fallacy.Actually, that's not how association fallacy works at all. Nice try though..
Langston: I don't think he was trying to put forth his subjective experience as objective proof.
Urbn: Langston: I don't think he was trying to put forth his subjective experience as objective proof.Ummm...he titled his book 'Proof of Heaven'
Langston: Urbn: Langston: I don't think he was trying to put forth his subjective experience as objective proof.Ummm...he titled his book 'Proof of Heaven'Perhaps a bit catchier than "My experience which challenges the preconceived theories of higher brain function during clinical brain death"
bogey: Poppa Boner: bogey: After reading this guy's resume I seriously doubt he's doing this to sell books or make money. He's already well paid and professionally respected. Opening himself up to ridicule by his peers for a few bucks makes no sense. I have no idea what happened to this guy but I have no problem believing he is sincere.I do not question the man's sincerity.Many in the thread are and I had my doubts until I Googled him. Seems like a pretty accomplished fellow.
Poppa Boner: The only people who know what happens after you die are dead.
Quick Fixer: I'm reminded of Dr. Jill Taylor's experience of having a stroke, described at her presentation at TED some years ago:http://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insig h t.htmlOne of the things she mentions, in particular, is that the concept of an identity independent of the world around oneself is a mental construct. The systems maintiaining that construct can be damaged and / or destroyed, leaving one with, apparently, a profound sense of connectedness to the world around.
angry bunny: So the fact that the universe or whatever was unconcerned with my nonexistance prior to me existing is of no comfort now that I have briefly been existing and have developed a taste for it.
ChaoticCoyote: I died once. Hard death, during a heart attack. Was clinically dead for 15 minutes.My consciousness continued during my "death".I don't share details, because doing so would be pointless. If my experience was simply under-the-radar brain activity, the experience is moot. If it was an experience of existence beyond death, my observations are hearsay, and will convince no one of any "truths" I learned.What did I see? Well... it certainly wouldn't classify as Christian, that's for sure. Not "hell" either. Very interesting, for certain.Personally, I now believe my existence continues beyond death. Your mileage and experience may vary./ Glad to be alive// Happy to know more about myself
craig328: poonesfarm: craig328: poonesfarm: Although I considered myself a faithful Christian... I sympathized deeply with those who wanted to believe that there was a God somewhere out there who loved us unconditionally. In fact, I envied such people the security that those beliefs no doubt provided. But as a scientist, I simply knew better than to believe them myself.Uh...what?It's a common misconception by those who cannot think in anything but binary concepts. Being a scientist and believing in God aren't and never have been mutually exclusive conditions. They only seem so to those lacking in experience in either but who like to believe they're enlightened, intelligent and educated.Sure, but what is a "faithful Christian" who doesn't believe in God? I know plenty of scientists and scientific types who are theists of one sort or another, but the way his is written makes it seems oxymoronic unless, as Callous pointed out, he means he was just going through the motions without actually believing.My take on it is that he's someone who believes in God and probably Jesus but is maybe not so big on going to church. I'm much the same way. For personal experiences, I've come to believe there is something outside our possible realm of experience that we, as human beings, are ill equipped to describe and relate to. My personal belief is that there is something like God but I'm not into the once a week "go demonstrate my beliefs in front of my neighbors in church" routine.One can be a believer in a spiritual situation without wishing to be identified with those who want to make that belief into an organized fan club.FTFA:Although I considered myself a faithful Christian, I was so more in name than in actual belief.
BraveNewCheneyWorld: Poppa Boner: The only people who know what happens after you die are dead.You could always invest your time into learning astral projection. The information on how to do so is out there for free, if you want to make an actual study of the phenomena yourself (that is, if you trust your own perception). If you're willing to dedicate a couple hours a day over the course of a year at most to discover the answer to the biggest mystery in the universe, you could do worse.
Urbn: Langston: Urbn: Langston: I don't think he was trying to put forth his subjective experience as objective proof.Ummm...he titled his book 'Proof of Heaven'Perhaps a bit catchier than "My experience which challenges the preconceived theories of higher brain function during clinical brain death"Yes, because that and the 'Proof of Heaven' were his only 2 options/Words mean things
Langston: if he's not using the word "proof" in his description and shows the restraint of a scientist and being accurate in the book itself
Farking Canuck: - chain of custody - this is one of the bible's big failings. Not only do we know that its chain of custody is dubious, we know it has been intentionally manipulated.
Farking Canuck: - verifiability - is the theory viable - well it involves the magical transportation of souls around - neither of which have any evidence themselves
Farking Canuck: - corroborating evidence - here is where your multiple NDEs gain some credibility but not much as they fail too hard in the other areas
Farking Canuck: - alternative theories - the NDE can be explained with the chemical soup the brain is soaked in near death and, in this case, the financial gain from selling the book. Both more likely than "magic is real"
Farking Canuck: If you bring real evidence to the table you will hear a different song. But if you keep bringing "it's real because I say so" evidence you will keep getting shut down.
boyofd: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Poppa Boner: The only people who know what happens after you die are dead.You could always invest your time into learning astral projection. The information on how to do so is out there for free, if you want to make an actual study of the phenomena yourself (that is, if you trust your own perception). If you're willing to dedicate a couple hours a day over the course of a year at most to discover the answer to the biggest mystery in the universe, you could do worse."Trusting your own perception" is the first step down the road to all kinds of wrong conclusions. Until you understand just how easily your own perceptions can be fooled and manipulated (or just how often they are fooled and manipulated during the course of an ordinary day), you are just going to spin your wheels. I guess my metaphors are at a crossroads.
BraveNewCheneyWorld: I never said it's real because they say so. I really wish your side would stop painting me with that brush.
BraveNewCheneyWorld: No, really, what evidence within the realm of law would be acceptable as proof?
bwilson27: ELF Radio: RAAAARGH SHUT UP ALL YOU WEAK, SNIVELING BABIES WHO THINK LIFE HAS MEANING OR SOME GAY SHIAT LIKE THAT. WE ARE ANIMAL-MACHINES THAT SPRANG INEXPLICABLY FROM NOTHING AND WE EAT AND FARK AND DIE AND THAT IS ALL. NOTHING ELSE EXISTS AND ANYONE WHO SAYS OTHER WISE IS A LAME DICK WHO CANT DEAL WITH REALITY.WHY DONT YOU FAIRIES GO BECOME REPUBLICANS AND VOTE FOR MITT ROMENY IF YOU BELIEVE THIS NANCY QUEER AND HIS HALLUCINATROY BULLSHIAT.You've got my vote.
hubiestubert: Technically I died four times on the table when I had my aortic aneurysm. Ascending aorta blew out like a bad seal, and it took half the valve attached with it. 26 and half hours of surgery, 267 units of blood and blood related products, and a LOT of folks worked on getting my fuzzy butt back.I did have something of an experience. Call it hypoxia, loss of blood, or just plain near death--literally the surgeon had to massage my heart directly at one point to keep the blood flowing because the poor sucker was just beat down. My heart had to be restarted a total of four times while I was on the table.The brain was certainly firing. I had to be put back down under a few times during this whole experience, 26 hours is a long time for anesthesia, especially when you are looking at keeping the heart continuing to roll.Did I see a white light? Did I see vast hordes of loved ones in the Beyond? Not so much. I was faced with a choice, to give up and move on, or stay. It wasn't anything so dramatic as an angel, but then again, perhaps my view of a Divine is perhaps a lot less spectacular than most folks'. Call it an understanding of biofeedback and long practice with dualistic thought and meditation to separate bodily function and thought, call it a rationalization of parsing the many voices that were hammering at my ears, and understanding that I was jacked the Hells up, but in that place in my head, while this was all going on, I met myself, and I faced a choice to give up, or keep going. I loved my fiancee and I didn't want her to grieve, so I chose to stay. It wasn't an easy thing. There were a lot of paths to choose from, and few of them led back to her. I look on it as seeing possibilities opening, and not many of those possibilities led to a place where I was conscious. In one way, I can see it as consciousness seeking the proper path, with a myriad of possibilities and possible selves all crowding and seeking that same path, or another, that would lead to their ...
stainedglassdoll: Didn't read the whole thread, so apologies if it's been posted already, but I came across this article today and think this is an appropriate place to drop it. (from Link)"You want a physicist to speak at your funeral. You want the physicist to talk to your grieving family about the conservation of energy, so they will understand that your energy has not died. You want the physicist to remind your sobbing mother about the first law of thermodynamics; that no energy gets created in the universe, and none is destroyed. You want your mother to know that all your energy, every vibration, every Btu of heat, every wave of every particle that was her beloved child remains with her in this world. You want the physicist to tell your weeping father that amid energies of the cosmos, you gave as good as you got.And at one point you'd hope that the physicist would step down from the pulpit and walk to your brokenhearted spouse there in the pew and tell him that all the photons that ever bounced off your face, all the particles whose paths were interrupted by your smile, by the touch of your hair, hundreds of trillions of particles, have raced off like children, their ways forever changed by you. And as your widow rocks in the arms of a loving family, may the physicist let her know that all the photons that bounced from you were gathered in the particle detectors that are her eyes, that those photons created within her constellations of electromagnetically charged neurons whose energy will go on forever.And the physicist will remind the congregation of how much of all our energy is given off as heat. There may be a few fanning themselves with their programs as he says it. And he will tell them that the warmth that flowed through you in life is still here, still part of all that we are, even as we who mourn continue the heat of our own lives.And you'll want the physicist to explain to those who loved you that they need not have faith; indeed, they should not have faith. L ...
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