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(Newsweek)   Many people have claimed near-death experiences, but few are as interesting or detailed as that of one neurosurgeon who describes seven days spent in Heaven while his brain was completely inactive   (thedailybeast.com) divider line 543
    More: Interesting, scientific explanations  
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28027 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Oct 2012 at 12:39 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-08 05:06:02 PM

robohobo: For all the crybabies in this thread.


I think we're all crybabies, it's just that some of the crybabies say this is bullshiat, and some say maybe it's true. Personally I side with master Khan.
 
2012-10-08 05:06:05 PM

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Langston: Interesting article. Good find, subby

Yes, interesting. However, the cynic in me notes that he is writing a book and needs to publicize it. Correlation =/ causation, but still....

[cdn.thedailybeast.com image 201x301] 

Proof of Heaven by Eben Alexander, M.D.
To be published by Simon & Schuster, Inc..
Copyright (c) 2012 by Eben Alexander III, M.D.


In print for $10.87 Kindle for $9.99 at Amazon.comsomethingsomething

Publish or Perish you little Academic Neuro you.
 
2012-10-08 05:06:13 PM

nmemkha: miscreant: a good number of posters have engaged you in very reasoned discussion.

And I answered them reasonably (just I am answering you know). What is your point?


Well, let's see. You started the thread by calling atheists assholes (albeit indirectly so you could claim innocence), then you got called on it and pointed to the one guy spewing vitriol in all caps as some sort of proof that atheists were assholes. I pointed out that you were concentrating on one guy in a thread full of atheists, and that a good number of atheists had responded to you with quite reasonably and you were only paying attention to the one loud mouth idiot, which would seem to indicate a confirmation bias on your part... not to mention proving your contention that all atheists are assholes to be bullshiat.
 
2012-10-08 05:08:22 PM
When Christians have near-death experiences, they go to heaven and see Jesus.
When Jews have near-death experiences, they go to the world-to-come and see Moses.
When Muslims have near-death experiences, they go to Jannah and see Muhammad.
When Hindus have near-death experiences, they achieve Moksha and are one with Brahman.
When Buddhists have near-death experiences, they achieve Nirvana and meet Buddha.
When Mormons have near-death experiences, they become gods of their own planets.

Which leads me to believe one of three possibilities.

1) There is a scientific explanation for it all.

2) The Unitarian Universalists are right, and each religion is one of many spokes on a wheel that are connected to the same place in the end

3) Either the Christians or the Muslims are right, and Satan/Shaitan is deceiving the followers of all other religions with visions of near-death experiences to make them think their religion is right.
 
2012-10-08 05:11:55 PM

colon_pow: for some, it is of utmost importance that there exists no god, no afterlife, no soul, etc.

articles like this will keep them up at night.


for some, it is of utmost importance that there exists a god, an afterlife, a soul, etc...
they are the people who will buy this book to sit next to their copy of 'Heaven is Real'.

//fool - soon - money...
 
2012-10-08 05:12:44 PM
truth......sister is a nun....mom a saint
 
2012-10-08 05:13:47 PM

miscreant: nmemkha: miscreant: a good number of posters have engaged you in very reasoned discussion.

And I answered them reasonably (just I am answering you know). What is your point?

Well, let's see. You started the thread by calling atheists assholes (albeit indirectly so you could claim innocence), then you got called on it and pointed to the one guy spewing vitriol in all caps as some sort of proof that atheists were assholes. I pointed out that you were concentrating on one guy in a thread full of atheists, and that a good number of atheists had responded to you with quite reasonably and you were only paying attention to the one loud mouth idiot, which would seem to indicate a confirmation bias on your part... not to mention proving your contention that all atheists are assholes to be bullshiat.


My original statement did not contain the word "asshole". Some other than me replied with that assessment.
 
2012-10-08 05:14:09 PM

elchip: When Christians have near-death experiences, they go to heaven and see Jesus.
When Jews have near-death experiences, they go to the world-to-come and see Moses.
When Muslims have near-death experiences, they go to Jannah and see Muhammad.
When Hindus have near-death experiences, they achieve Moksha and are one with Brahman.
When Buddhists have near-death experiences, they achieve Nirvana and meet Buddha.
When Mormons have near-death experiences, they become gods of their own planets.

Which leads me to believe one of three possibilities.

1) There is a scientific explanation for it all.

2) The Unitarian Universalists are right, and each religion is one of many spokes on a wheel that are connected to the same place in the end

3) Either the Christians or the Muslims are right, and Satan/Shaitan is deceiving the followers of all other religions with visions of near-death experiences to make them think their religion is right.


Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not, but the weird thing with NDEs is that even when people of religious faith have them, a large amount of time they don't see figures related to their religions, but one more of the way you would perceive a New Ager having one. Religious faith/lack there of doesn't seem to be a benefit or deterrent to these experiences.
 
2012-10-08 05:14:22 PM
I definitely think there is more out there...I just don't believe all this stuff in the universe is random...there is definitely some 'design' aspect to it.

But I shudder when I see an article and at the end of it is a link to a book the person is putting out.

I'm sure he wants to put the word out, but makes you *question* everything.
 
2012-10-08 05:15:19 PM
I don't think this is going to do anything other than challenge or confirm what people already believe about what happens after death. His experience was extremely positive, which is something that most NDEs seem to have in common (notwithstanding suicide-attempt NDEs).
 
He had a good and uplifting and vivid recollection of the event. That's fantastic--I hope I do, too. I don't think that this constitutes proof and I don't think he was trying to put forth his subjective experience as objective proof. To me, it seemed that he was saying that in his experience, a flatline in that part of the brain would suggest that he shouldn't have been able to either experience or remember it, and therefore our theory of how experience is tied to that part of the brain needs to be revised, since his own experience is contrary to that theory.
 
2012-10-08 05:15:30 PM
The message had three parts, and if I had to translate them into earthly language, I'd say they ran something like this:

"You are loved and cherished, dearly, forever."

"You have nothing to fear."

"There is nothing you can do wrong."


Heaven is Zombo.com????????
 
2012-10-08 05:17:07 PM

Melvin Lovecraft: My opinion:

I once had a motorcycle accident that left me comatose for about a week. I don't remember a thing about it; my last memory was playing pool in a bar with a girl from Connecticut who had an awesome rack and I was winning. The next thing I knew, a week was gone and I was badly injured. There were no visions, fairies, butterflies or Jesus...nothing. (The loss of time was a bit frightening at first, but I got over it.) When I awoke, I thought, briefly, that I was in Hell, as my ex wife was there, hovering over me. She said the doctors didn't fix my broken stuff for about 8 hours after I came in due to a severe closed head injury and it was unclear if I was going to survive. I guess that gives me a near death experience.

The article guy says he had a near death experience. I can understand that. I can also understand that his credibility was shot as soon as he said he was a Christian (practicing or otherwise). What I can't understand are those who claim to have been "dead dead", as if they actually died and came back. I want to go on record as saying that doesn't happen. We may think that our machines can tell if something is dead or not, but we're wrong. Know how I know that? Because dead things don't come back to life. They just don't. That's what "dead" means. So anyone who says "I was dead and came back!" wasn't dead. Somewhere in their body the spark of life (for lack of a better term) was not extinguished. If it were, they would still be dead.

I remember reading an article once (probably here on Fark) that likened our brains to a computer. We can store vast amounts of data, both tangible and dreamy, but when the plug is pulled, it's all gone. When we die, our hard drive doesn't magically join a LAN of another consciousness.

Would life after death be awesome? Of course it would! It would make this terrestrial life seem not so...final. And it goes without saying that I could be wrong, and I kind of hope I am. But, it does pre ...


+1
 
2012-10-08 05:17:27 PM

bogey: After reading this guy's resume I seriously doubt he's doing this to sell books or make money. He's already well paid and professionally respected. Opening himself up to ridicule by his peers for a few bucks makes no sense. I have no idea what happened to this guy but I have no problem believing he is sincere.


I do not question the man's sincerity. I've seen some freaky assed sh*t in my days plodding this earth. However to say that what he saw is evidence of the afterlife is unscrupulous and I think he may have been persuaded by folks who heard his story and saw it as an opportunity to further their own agendas.

The only people who know what happens after you die are dead. This guy wasn't dead. I also don't count folks whose systems completely shut down but turned back on as people who have been dead. If they were dead they'd be dead... now and forever. So unless ya'll have an inter-dimensional long distance plan to chat with those who have passed just accept that there are things in the universe that we will never know as long as we are stuck in these bags of meat we call bodies. Just tried to find a nice slice of the world where you can be content, be nice to each other and STFU.

Peace out.
 
2012-10-08 05:18:09 PM

Poppa Boner:
The only people who know what happens after you die are dead. This guy wasn't dead. I also don't count folks whose systems completely shut down but turned back on as people who have been dead. If they were dead they'd be dead... now and forever. So unless ya'll have an inter-dimensional long distance plan to chat with those who have passed just accept that there are things in the universe that we will never know as long as we are stuck in these bags of meat we call bodies. Just tried to find a nice slice of the world where you can be content, be nice to each other and STFU.

Peace out.


Well said.
 
2012-10-08 05:19:14 PM

Poppa Boner: And I'd like to say the reason this angers me and why I bothered logging in is because this is being spun as PROOF.


Where in TFA is the word 'proof' used? I didn't see that claim. He did use the word 'evidence' ("I'm not the first person to have discovered evidence that consciousness exists beyond the body." but there's a difference between evidence and proof.

It is not proof and it is disingenuous, manipulative and outright dangerous to claim it is.

Again, no mention of 'proof'. And how do you see it as manipulative? How is the reader being manipulated? And in what way is it dangerous? You label the doctor's writing as disingenuous. You're essentially say that he's lying or doesn't believe his own words. Do you know him? Did he tell you that he doesn't believe what he's saying? Do you have ANY evidence to back up your claim. Anything at all?

20 years ago this guy would have been flagged as a nutball for making such a wild claim but in today's political and social climate this kind of outright lying is considered an acceptable argument and is becoming more and more common to the detriment of logic and reason.

Again, you're saying that he's lying. And again I ask how you know? You say that this man's story is more plausible in 2012 than it would have been in 1992 due to the "political climate" of today. Care to explain that remark? And while you're at it, would you please explain how this guy's book is damaging logic and reason? Thanks.


If the guy had just told his story and said he now believes in a higher power or an afterlife I would have no problem. I wouldn't even doubt him.

I think that's what the guy's doing, isn't it. What's your gripe with him, exactly?

But for him to flaunt his scientific credentials (and remember he is a SURGEON... not a researcher) and use them to manipulate people is atrocious.

Oh, I see. He "flaunted" his credentials. The nerve of the guy! Atrocious! Surely he should have published anonymously or under a pseudonym, and let the readers guess at his background.

To add to that the press, and not even fringe press (WTF Newsweek) to boldly back up his claim that this is PROOF is a very frightening state of affairs.

In what way did they "boldly back up his claim"? By publishing his story? Frightening!

To allow this kind of sh*t to go on and not say anything is a disservice to the advancement of mankind and threatens to plunge us into the next Dark Ages.

Yeah, this is very dangerous. The only way to prevent our descent into the Dark Ages is to burn his book. Who's with me?
 
2012-10-08 05:19:44 PM

golden goat: Hmm, a couple of CTs at fixed time points doesn't indicate that his brain is always "off." The fact he experienced anything is proof that his brain was working in some capacity.


If you believe that experience is only possible with brain activity. But then you've already drawn the conclusion.
 
2012-10-08 05:20:43 PM

Queensowntalia: czetie: There's nothing in this article or any other similar account that is more compelling than a dream.

Who says dreams can't be real?

I had a dream last night Johnny Depp and Hugh Jackman were taking turns giving me massages.

/I want to believe


Damn. The only celebrities in my dreams last night were Dirk Benedict and Andy Dick. Even my dreams are D-list.

/seriously, not making that up, sadly
 
2012-10-08 05:22:15 PM
FTFA: "I know how pronouncements like mine sound to skeptics, so I will tell my story with the logic and language of the scientist I am."

Ummmm, no. You didn't do that. You described your perceived experiences using the same kind of language and lack of logic that everyone who describes these experiences uses. You happen to be a scientist too.

/You seem to like to lecture (so you like having an audience) but publish much? In peer reviewed journals? http://www.lifebeyonddeath.net/curriculum-vitae-0
 
2012-10-08 05:24:27 PM

Poppa Boner: bogey: After reading this guy's resume I seriously doubt he's doing this to sell books or make money. He's already well paid and professionally respected. Opening himself up to ridicule by his peers for a few bucks makes no sense. I have no idea what happened to this guy but I have no problem believing he is sincere.

I do not question the man's sincerity.



Many in the thread are and I had my doubts until I Googled him. Seems like a pretty accomplished fellow.
 
2012-10-08 05:26:17 PM

Cheeseburger: but there's a difference between evidence and proof.


*facepalm*

nmemkha: Well said.


Thank you. And really I've got no problem with you or anyone really... just as long as the lines of communication can stay open. We need to learn from each other or we aren't gonna anywhere.

Anyway I've completely been ignoring what I intended to do today so I should get to work.
 
2012-10-08 05:27:58 PM

Poppa Boner: Cheeseburger: but there's a difference between evidence and proof.

*facepalm*

nmemkha: Well said.

Thank you. And really I've got no problem with you or anyone really... just as long as the lines of communication can stay open. We need to learn from each other or we aren't gonna anywhere.

Anyway I've completely been ignoring what I intended to do today so I should get to work.


Agreed. Take care.
 
2012-10-08 05:28:04 PM

JungleBoogie: angry bunny: I fear dying. Alot. I fear it no matter the outcome.

Look, here's a simple fact: We did not create ourselves. The machine did. By machine, I mean universe. It organized itself into the galaxies, stars, the planets. It organized itself into the earth. The ball of gas and dust came together. It organized itself into the magma, the rocks, the early atmosphere, the early lifeform, the dinosaurs, and finally us.

The basic principles of the underlying fabric of the universe have driven it to form into what it is today. And it's continuing to organize itself. Into what, who knows.

We're part of something much, much MUCH bigger. The basic fabric of the universe organized itself into us. Take gods, God out of it for a moment. This is what the science tells us.

The machine has organized itself into us, and everything we see around us.

Can an inanimate machine organize itself into something conscious and intelligent? I don't know. Is there some tendency towards evolution into consciousness in the universe? Something which drives the underlying fabric to form into consciousness? It certainly happened here. Patterns tend to repeat in the universe.


www.fractal-recursions.com
 
2012-10-08 05:28:30 PM
His brain was completely inactive?

What's his login?
 
2012-10-08 05:28:36 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Farking Canuck: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Farking Canuck: You are upset that we are not considering your evidence because we are attacking it.

Nope, just the manner in which you attack it, which is directly analogous to the reasoning presented by creationists.

Saying that over and over does not make it true.

Creationists do not consider evidence ... you are using an unethical argument technique called Association Fallacy.

Actually, that's not how association fallacy works at all. Nice try though..


My mistake. I was in a hurry because I had to run out for a bit.

You are unethically making a false association without providing any evidence (what a surprise - why do you guys have such an aversion to evidence??). But association fallacy describes a different unethical argument.

The fact is the same as it always is. Your evidence that magic is real never holds up to scrutiny. And when we do what you ask, look at your evidence, you get all butt-hurt and accuse us of bias because we don't see any value in it.

The rules of evidence from a scientific point of view are not that complicated. They are similar to those used in a court of law:

- chain of custody - this is one of the bible's big failings. Not only do we know that its chain of custody is dubious, we know it has been intentionally manipulated.

- verifiability - is the theory viable - well it involves the magical transportation of souls around - neither of which have any evidence themselves

- corroborating evidence - here is where your multiple NDEs gain some credibility but not much as they fail too hard in the other areas

- alternative theories - the NDE can be explained with the chemical soup the brain is soaked in near death and, in this case, the financial gain from selling the book. Both more likely than "magic is real"

If you bring real evidence to the table you will hear a different song. But if you keep bringing "it's real because I say so" evidence you will keep getting shut down.
 
2012-10-08 05:28:41 PM

Langston: I don't think he was trying to put forth his subjective experience as objective proof.


Ummm...he titled his book 'Proof of Heaven'
 
2012-10-08 05:31:46 PM

Urbn: Langston: I don't think he was trying to put forth his subjective experience as objective proof.

Ummm...he titled his book 'Proof of Heaven'


Perhaps a bit catchier than "My experience which challenges the preconceived theories of higher brain function during clinical brain death"
 
2012-10-08 05:33:24 PM

Langston: Urbn: Langston: I don't think he was trying to put forth his subjective experience as objective proof.

Ummm...he titled his book 'Proof of Heaven'

Perhaps a bit catchier than "My experience which challenges the preconceived theories of higher brain function during clinical brain death"


Yes, because that and the 'Proof of Heaven' were his only 2 options

/Words mean things
 
2012-10-08 05:34:15 PM

bogey: Poppa Boner: bogey: After reading this guy's resume I seriously doubt he's doing this to sell books or make money. He's already well paid and professionally respected. Opening himself up to ridicule by his peers for a few bucks makes no sense. I have no idea what happened to this guy but I have no problem believing he is sincere.

I do not question the man's sincerity.


Many in the thread are and I had my doubts until I Googled him. Seems like a pretty accomplished fellow.


That's what makes it so interesting. It isn't "random person saw Jesus when they had a heart attack and its real" or "atheist went to hell and now he is back and ready to be good", it's a guy having an experience that is completely against what years and years of training and published and peer reviewed articles have told him is correct to the best of science's explanation. And if you learn more about his situation, he goes into the fact that he was completely baffled and perplexed by the entire situation, to the point of asking other neurouscientists what the hell went on and why did it.
 
2012-10-08 05:35:01 PM

Poppa Boner: The only people who know what happens after you die are dead.


You could always invest your time into learning astral projection. The information on how to do so is out there for free, if you want to make an actual study of the phenomena yourself (that is, if you trust your own perception). If you're willing to dedicate a couple hours a day over the course of a year at most to discover the answer to the biggest mystery in the universe, you could do worse.
 
2012-10-08 05:37:37 PM

Quick Fixer: I'm reminded of Dr. Jill Taylor's experience of having a stroke, described at her presentation at TED some years ago:

http://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insig h t.html

One of the things she mentions, in particular, is that the concept of an identity independent of the world around oneself is a mental construct. The systems maintiaining that construct can be damaged and / or destroyed, leaving one with, apparently, a profound sense of connectedness to the world around.


It's possible to achieve the same effect with certain kinds of prayer or meditation that quiet the parts of the brain responsible for maintaining the perception of what is part of "you" and what is the rest of the world. The illusion that there is a hard boundary between "you" and "everything" else is one that your brain has to work hard to maintain, and when the illusion breaks down it's perfectly unsurprising that the subjective experience is of "being one with all creation".

HOWEVER it can be definitively shown that this is no more than a subjective experience by the simple fact that nobody experiencing such a feeling of connectedness has ever been able to, for example, describe the previously-unseen contents of a nearby closet, something that ought to be trivial for a mind that is actually objectively at one with creation. It turns out that the perceptions of connectedness are still limited by the mundane senses that are physically connected to the brain.

All of which is to say that, as I'm sure Dr. Taylor would agree, introspection on our subjective mental states is not a very reliable way of investigating the objective reality of spiritual claims.

Now if you'll excuse me, it's well after five and I'm going to chemically adjust my conscious state.
 
2012-10-08 05:39:24 PM

angry bunny: So the fact that the universe or whatever was unconcerned with my nonexistance prior to me existing is of no comfort now that I have briefly been existing and have developed a taste for it.


I understand.

In that case, you should do what I'm doing. Get your ya-ya's out while you can... so when you're 90 and feeling that death-rattle coming on, you can say "fark it, I got my money's worth".

Couldn't hurt.
 
2012-10-08 05:41:54 PM

ChaoticCoyote: I died once. Hard death, during a heart attack. Was clinically dead for 15 minutes.

My consciousness continued during my "death".

I don't share details, because doing so would be pointless. If my experience was simply under-the-radar brain activity, the experience is moot. If it was an experience of existence beyond death, my observations are hearsay, and will convince no one of any "truths" I learned.

What did I see? Well... it certainly wouldn't classify as Christian, that's for sure. Not "hell" either. Very interesting, for certain.

Personally, I now believe my existence continues beyond death. Your mileage and experience may vary.

/ Glad to be alive
// Happy to know more about myself


Thanks, ChaoticCoyote... I've had a couple of very inexplicable experiences, also...one during a medical emergency and one for no apparent reason. As you say...interesting...and in my own experiences, extremely unexpected and not necessarily according to other reports.

The result has been a near-complete lack of a fear of death...there's always the human will to survive, but I'm not afraid of the next step.

Yup, pre-ordered the Kindle book.
 
2012-10-08 05:42:02 PM
The moment I started reading this I thought, "I bet he's selling a book."

Got to the end and yep, he's selling a book. I have trouble thinking this story is anything more than publicity.

Ah well, if there is something like he describes, that would be cool. I remain skeptical.
 
2012-10-08 05:46:55 PM

craig328: poonesfarm: craig328: poonesfarm: Although I considered myself a faithful Christian... I sympathized deeply with those who wanted to believe that there was a God somewhere out there who loved us unconditionally. In fact, I envied such people the security that those beliefs no doubt provided. But as a scientist, I simply knew better than to believe them myself.

Uh...what?

It's a common misconception by those who cannot think in anything but binary concepts. Being a scientist and believing in God aren't and never have been mutually exclusive conditions. They only seem so to those lacking in experience in either but who like to believe they're enlightened, intelligent and educated.

Sure, but what is a "faithful Christian" who doesn't believe in God? I know plenty of scientists and scientific types who are theists of one sort or another, but the way his is written makes it seems oxymoronic unless, as Callous pointed out, he means he was just going through the motions without actually believing.

My take on it is that he's someone who believes in God and probably Jesus but is maybe not so big on going to church. I'm much the same way. For personal experiences, I've come to believe there is something outside our possible realm of experience that we, as human beings, are ill equipped to describe and relate to. My personal belief is that there is something like God but I'm not into the once a week "go demonstrate my beliefs in front of my neighbors in church" routine.

One can be a believer in a spiritual situation without wishing to be identified with those who want to make that belief into an organized fan club.

FTFA:

Although I considered myself a faithful Christian, I was so more in name than in actual belief.


Nah, I think he's saying the opposite of your take...at any rate, I was really only commenting on the bad writing. I could care less what this guy's beliefs were before or after his magical mystery tour.
 
2012-10-08 05:48:41 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Poppa Boner: The only people who know what happens after you die are dead.

You could always invest your time into learning astral projection. The information on how to do so is out there for free, if you want to make an actual study of the phenomena yourself (that is, if you trust your own perception). If you're willing to dedicate a couple hours a day over the course of a year at most to discover the answer to the biggest mystery in the universe, you could do worse.


"Trusting your own perception" is the first step down the road to all kinds of wrong conclusions. Until you understand just how easily your own perceptions can be fooled and manipulated (or just how often they are fooled and manipulated during the course of an ordinary day), you are just going to spin your wheels. I guess my metaphors are at a crossroads.
 
2012-10-08 05:49:54 PM

Urbn: Langston: Urbn: Langston: I don't think he was trying to put forth his subjective experience as objective proof.

Ummm...he titled his book 'Proof of Heaven'

Perhaps a bit catchier than "My experience which challenges the preconceived theories of higher brain function during clinical brain death"

Yes, because that and the 'Proof of Heaven' were his only 2 options

/Words mean things

 
Obviously not his only two options, but one title is concise and gets people like you and I talking. Personally, if he's not using the word "proof" in his description and shows the restraint of a scientist and being accurate in the book itself, the title doesn't get my panties in a wad.
 
2012-10-08 05:51:40 PM
To return for a moment to TFA...

"the theory that the brain, and in particular the cortex, generates consciousness... now lies broken at our feet. What happened to me destroyed it."

If that kind of language doesn't get your skeptical eyebrow a-twitching, then maybe you're a tad susceptible to wish-thinking. It's one anecdotal and 100% subjective experience, oddly remembered and weirdly told. By a guy with a book to sell.

Not saying he's a liar. Just saying that the fundamental bedrock of reality is rarely found to be like a magic-carpet ride on the wings of butterflies.
 
2012-10-08 05:55:33 PM

Langston: if he's not using the word "proof" in his description and shows the restraint of a scientist and being accurate in the book itself


Ugh. See my previous post.
 
2012-10-08 05:58:06 PM

Farking Canuck: - chain of custody - this is one of the bible's big failings. Not only do we know that its chain of custody is dubious, we know it has been intentionally manipulated.


I completely agree, but I'm not discussing a single religion or event. But on a side note, yes, the majority of the bible is politically edited.

Farking Canuck: - verifiability - is the theory viable - well it involves the magical transportation of souls around - neither of which have any evidence themselves


That's a bit harder, since it's both illegal and unethical to bring someone close to death to attempt reproduction of these results.

Farking Canuck: - corroborating evidence - here is where your multiple NDEs gain some credibility but not much as they fail too hard in the other areas


Enough of them have people (surgeons, nurses etc) willing to corroborate stories, who are also completely impartial and gaining literally zero financial gain, and only inviting potential scorn for being involved. They're not selling books.

Farking Canuck: - alternative theories - the NDE can be explained with the chemical soup the brain is soaked in near death and, in this case, the financial gain from selling the book. Both more likely than "magic is real"


People who are able to recount conversations, or details of medical tools and surgical procedures, as well as specific timing of procedures in closed surgery room cannot be so easily explained unless you believe the patients had access to the data provided by pinhole cameras and mics. It reeks of paranoia on the level of the most determined snake oil salesman. Yeah, maybe, but is that so much more of a longshot than the afterlife being a reality?

Farking Canuck: If you bring real evidence to the table you will hear a different song. But if you keep bringing "it's real because I say so" evidence you will keep getting shut down.


I never said it's real because they say so. I really wish your side would stop painting me with that brush. I simply have an open mind and am willing to consider the idea that the man is telling the truth. Honestly, I think it would be far more constructive for us all to dig and find the readings on his brain scans, and compare those to known science on the centers of consciousness and higher logic, than biatching each other out for our willingness to weigh certain facts over others (which we're both doing). Honestly the article didn't give us charts or the analysis of a panel of independent neuroscientists, I'd like to see that.
 
2012-10-08 06:00:08 PM
One of his doctors probably slipped him a ketamine ambien cocktail to jump start his brain. It's getting popular and promising for many coma patients. Sounds like an emergence vision to me.
 
2012-10-08 06:01:03 PM

boyofd: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Poppa Boner: The only people who know what happens after you die are dead.

You could always invest your time into learning astral projection. The information on how to do so is out there for free, if you want to make an actual study of the phenomena yourself (that is, if you trust your own perception). If you're willing to dedicate a couple hours a day over the course of a year at most to discover the answer to the biggest mystery in the universe, you could do worse.

"Trusting your own perception" is the first step down the road to all kinds of wrong conclusions. Until you understand just how easily your own perceptions can be fooled and manipulated (or just how often they are fooled and manipulated during the course of an ordinary day), you are just going to spin your wheels. I guess my metaphors are at a crossroads.


Like I said, it's illegal and unethical to bring other people, even if they willingly volunteer to the brink of death. Do you propose some alternative experiment?

No, really, what evidence within the realm of law would be acceptable as proof?
 
2012-10-08 06:02:38 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: I never said it's real because they say so. I really wish your side would stop painting me with that brush.


Actually the "I" in that sentence would be the guy in the article. He is saying it is real because of his personal memories. Defensive much?
 
2012-10-08 06:04:30 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: No, really, what evidence within the realm of law would be acceptable as proof?


There may not be any way to test this. Happens all the time in medical science.

This in no way makes the bad evidence you present creditable.
 
2012-10-08 06:05:54 PM

lostcat: It bugs me that a person (or soul) who isn't actually dead would be allowed into Heaven. It goes against my imaginary conception of Heaven to think that you could sneak in while in a coma, and then be let back out.

You'd think they'd have some policies in place around that situation.


They stamp your hand with fluorescent ink.
 
2012-10-08 06:06:14 PM
Didn't read the whole thread, so apologies if it's been posted already, but I came across this article today and think this is an appropriate place to drop it. (from Link)

"You want a physicist to speak at your funeral. You want the physicist to talk to your grieving family about the conservation of energy, so they will understand that your energy has not died. You want the physicist to remind your sobbing mother about the first law of thermodynamics; that no energy gets created in the universe, and none is destroyed. You want your mother to know that all your energy, every vibration, every Btu of heat, every wave of every particle that was her beloved child remains with her in this world. You want the physicist to tell your weeping father that amid energies of the cosmos, you gave as good as you got.

And at one point you'd hope that the physicist would step down from the pulpit and walk to your brokenhearted spouse there in the pew and tell him that all the photons that ever bounced off your face, all the particles whose paths were interrupted by your smile, by the touch of your hair, hundreds of trillions of particles, have raced off like children, their ways forever changed by you. And as your widow rocks in the arms of a loving family, may the physicist let her know that all the photons that bounced from you were gathered in the particle detectors that are her eyes, that those photons created within her constellations of electromagnetically charged neurons whose energy will go on forever.

And the physicist will remind the congregation of how much of all our energy is given off as heat. There may be a few fanning themselves with their programs as he says it. And he will tell them that the warmth that flowed through you in life is still here, still part of all that we are, even as we who mourn continue the heat of our own lives.

And you'll want the physicist to explain to those who loved you that they need not have faith; indeed, they should not have faith. Let them know that they can measure, that scientists have measured precisely the conservation of energy and found it accurate, verifiable and consistent across space and time. You can hope your family will examine the evidence and satisfy themselves that the science is sound and that they'll be comforted to know your energy's still around. According to the law of the conservation of energy, not a bit of you is gone; you're just less orderly. Amen."
 
2012-10-08 06:06:36 PM

bwilson27: ELF Radio: RAAAARGH SHUT UP ALL YOU WEAK, SNIVELING BABIES WHO THINK LIFE HAS MEANING OR SOME GAY SHIAT LIKE THAT. WE ARE ANIMAL-MACHINES THAT SPRANG INEXPLICABLY FROM NOTHING AND WE EAT AND FARK AND DIE AND THAT IS ALL. NOTHING ELSE EXISTS AND ANYONE WHO SAYS OTHER WISE IS A LAME DICK WHO CANT DEAL WITH REALITY.

WHY DONT YOU FAIRIES GO BECOME REPUBLICANS AND VOTE FOR MITT ROMENY IF YOU BELIEVE THIS NANCY QUEER AND HIS HALLUCINATROY BULLSHIAT.

You've got my vote.


LoL! I just realized after reading your response that I passed over his entire post because it was in caps.

Didn't even know it was there.
 
2012-10-08 06:06:43 PM

hubiestubert: Technically I died four times on the table when I had my aortic aneurysm. Ascending aorta blew out like a bad seal, and it took half the valve attached with it. 26 and half hours of surgery, 267 units of blood and blood related products, and a LOT of folks worked on getting my fuzzy butt back.

I did have something of an experience. Call it hypoxia, loss of blood, or just plain near death--literally the surgeon had to massage my heart directly at one point to keep the blood flowing because the poor sucker was just beat down. My heart had to be restarted a total of four times while I was on the table.

The brain was certainly firing. I had to be put back down under a few times during this whole experience, 26 hours is a long time for anesthesia, especially when you are looking at keeping the heart continuing to roll.

Did I see a white light? Did I see vast hordes of loved ones in the Beyond? Not so much. I was faced with a choice, to give up and move on, or stay. It wasn't anything so dramatic as an angel, but then again, perhaps my view of a Divine is perhaps a lot less spectacular than most folks'. Call it an understanding of biofeedback and long practice with dualistic thought and meditation to separate bodily function and thought, call it a rationalization of parsing the many voices that were hammering at my ears, and understanding that I was jacked the Hells up, but in that place in my head, while this was all going on, I met myself, and I faced a choice to give up, or keep going. I loved my fiancee and I didn't want her to grieve, so I chose to stay. It wasn't an easy thing. There were a lot of paths to choose from, and few of them led back to her. I look on it as seeing possibilities opening, and not many of those possibilities led to a place where I was conscious. In one way, I can see it as consciousness seeking the proper path, with a myriad of possibilities and possible selves all crowding and seeking that same path, or another, that would lead to their ...


I'm sure someone downthread is biatching about your wall o' text; allow me to counteract them.

Thank you, sincerely, for taking the time to detail your experience. I'm one of your boring raised Catholic grew out of believing any religion is real but don't pretend to know the truth about anything divine except it's not what Abrahamic religions tell us kind of guys (yes, runon). Faith is, by its very nature, foolish. Hope, however, is most certainly not. Stories like yours, told in a personal and unauthoritative manner, give me a sliver of hope that there's something after the corporeal. And that hope is deeply meaningful to me. So, again, thank you.
 
2012-10-08 06:07:22 PM
Occam's Razor to the rescue!
 
2012-10-08 06:10:49 PM

stainedglassdoll: Didn't read the whole thread, so apologies if it's been posted already, but I came across this article today and think this is an appropriate place to drop it. (from Link)

"You want a physicist to speak at your funeral. You want the physicist to talk to your grieving family about the conservation of energy, so they will understand that your energy has not died. You want the physicist to remind your sobbing mother about the first law of thermodynamics; that no energy gets created in the universe, and none is destroyed. You want your mother to know that all your energy, every vibration, every Btu of heat, every wave of every particle that was her beloved child remains with her in this world. You want the physicist to tell your weeping father that amid energies of the cosmos, you gave as good as you got.

And at one point you'd hope that the physicist would step down from the pulpit and walk to your brokenhearted spouse there in the pew and tell him that all the photons that ever bounced off your face, all the particles whose paths were interrupted by your smile, by the touch of your hair, hundreds of trillions of particles, have raced off like children, their ways forever changed by you. And as your widow rocks in the arms of a loving family, may the physicist let her know that all the photons that bounced from you were gathered in the particle detectors that are her eyes, that those photons created within her constellations of electromagnetically charged neurons whose energy will go on forever.

And the physicist will remind the congregation of how much of all our energy is given off as heat. There may be a few fanning themselves with their programs as he says it. And he will tell them that the warmth that flowed through you in life is still here, still part of all that we are, even as we who mourn continue the heat of our own lives.

And you'll want the physicist to explain to those who loved you that they need not have faith; indeed, they should not have faith. L ...


beautiful.
 
2012-10-08 06:11:20 PM
i'm sure there is a perfectly good scientific explanation for this
 
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