Heathen: mafiageek1980: Magnanimous_J: Get to know a few of us and you might be surprised that not all of us are so-called "pussies" that get upset by someone else's choice to eat animals.

I know quite a few, and I will say this...they are an uncooperative bunch. I have asked all of them that I was looking for vegan/veggie meals to supplement my diet (still eating meat of course), and ever one of their answers was very elitist, "Google it, also I wouldn't recommend any diet where you eat meat."

Thanks a lot jerkbags

/for honesty, asked 6 of them

you met 6 douchebags. It happens. I would be just as wrong to assume that every meat eater is Ted Nugent. But what pisses me off is that there's such a general perception about Vegan/Vegetarians being douches/whiny/pussies just because people ran into a couple of douches that give others a bad name. I'm sorry for your bad experience. If you would have ran into me, I would have given you a few recipes and invited you over for dinner. I can biatch till I'm blue in the face about Vegan food being more than just bland tofu crap, but it's better to experience it for yourself in a meal. I would rather educate people about the benefits/taste of food than become a "militant vegan fundie" (I'm looking at you, PETA). Besides, this is America, I don't eat animal, you do. If we go to Burger King, I will order a salad and won't trip if you get a cheeseburger. Better yet, we go to a Indian place and then it works out for everyone (and our colons, lol). My point: We aren't enemies, we can agree to disagree, and damnit, I'm gonna have my chickpea burger while you have your steak. We can wash it down with an ice cold beer!

*extends olive branch to my Carnivore friends

downstairs: grinnel: Are we anthropomorphizing animal thoughts and feeling bad for them because as humans we think it would suck? I'm not condoning physical torture in the killing process; pain is pain to any life form. But does a chicken know it has a shatty life if it spends it in a cage? Do cows yearn to run free if they've never been allowed to? Are a pig's dreams dashed to pieces when it doesn't get to become a movie star?


Yeah, I've always kinda wondered.  How much of this stuff is projection (beyond pain, which its pretty clear most or all animals feel.)?

I'm not trying to create a false equivalency, but just something to keep in mind: They used to say stuff like that about African slaves

As for animal emotions, ever have pets?

I walk around the house and I'm not carrying food, but I am the planet orbited by furry satellites. Even the cats. I watched a normally confident German Shepard come of groomer after his tail had been shaved for mites and he literally kept his back to the wall as he slunk out the door. And most of us have seen a pet get depressed when his companion animal dies. Or even sometimes when their human owner does.

You can't tell me that this is any kind of survival mechanism.

As for the science:

Emotions in Animals

Yes, they feel. Maybe not as we do, but they certainly have some form of emotional states.

TheHappyDrinker: Thanks, but I'm really not even egging. She's an uninformed vegetarian trying to say how farms run by reading an about page from a website. Reality isn't always pretty, but there are a lot of people who stick their head in the sand to avoid it.

Strawman,

I'm not saying how farms are run. I'm saying you are trying to be dismissive of a four generation farm that obviously is a profitable concern. Not a "Hobby." You can't dismiss small scale farming successes by being condescending and insulting of small scale farmers.

mafiageek1980: Heathen: mafiageek1980: Magnanimous_J:

*extends olive branch to my Carnivore friends

accepts olive branch on the condition you provide beer for tasting

/vegan cheese is not cheese...STOP CALLING IT THAT, IT'S NUT PASTE
//lol, just read what I typed, nut paste

mcwehrle: Serious, not in any way meant to be snarky question:

Vegetarians/Vegans....since you have made your decision to forego meat for your reasons, WHY would you want anything that remotely resembles the taste of meat? Wouldn't that creep you out if you've made the decision to not "eat anything with a face"?

Again, I'm not being snarky.....this has always truely confused me. I know I make comments about meat is tasty murder and all that, and I'm a true carnivore, but I respect those who have made their own choices for their own reasons.

Thanks to anyone who answers.

I've been a vegetarian for twenty years now and I don't remember what meats tastes like. I like a good veggie burger (and I agree they are few and far between) for it's own sake. Sometimes it is just abut the vehicle. I recently found a recipe for a crisp-fried tofu Ruben sandwich. I'm sure it doesn't taste like roast beef, but you still get the rye, swiss, thousand island dressing and sauerkraut.

So for me It's not about getting fake meat.

mafiageek1980: mcwehrle: mafiageek1980:

Portabella mushroom burgers are GOOD, but If I want a real "beefy" taste (burger wise) without the blood/having to eat faux meats, my go-to is a "burger" made with chickpeas or another similar bean. Hell, throw a couple of drops of "liquid smoke"/right seasonings/veggies/good BBQ sauce, throw that bad boy on the grill, and you got yourself a tasty bean-burger! If I want fries, I make my own. If I want mac and cheese, I make my own (Nutritional yeast is a Vegan's best friend if you want a chessy taste, fark those fake vegan cheeses), etc.


Serious, not in any way meant to be snarky question:

Vegetarians/Vegans....since you have made your decision to forego meat for your reasons, WHY would you want anything that remotely resembles the taste of meat? Wouldn't that creep you out if you've made the decision to not "eat anything with a face"?

Again, I'm not being snarky.....this has always truely confused me. I know I make comments about meat is tasty murder and all that, and I'm a true carnivore, but I respect those who have made their own choices for their own reasons.

Thanks to anyone who answers.

It's an honest question with an honest answer: sometimes you miss the taste of meat/texture/smell and have a craving (living in Austin Texas and smelling BBQ a lot reminds you what you used to have), but don't want consume animal parts. Another way to look at it is like someone who gave up eating junk food, and has been doing great without it, but gets a craving out of the blue for it. Instead of eating a dozen donuts, they eat 1, thus they were able to satisfy that craving WITHOUT going nuts. Personally, I've had to give up Vegan junk food, but that doesn't stop me from eating one of my husband's Oreos (yes, they are Vegan) every now and then if I have a craving.

Thank you for that. It makes sense. Again, thanks for answering. :)

Heathen: mafiageek1980: Heathen: mafiageek1980: Magnanimous_J:

*extends olive branch to my Carnivore friends

accepts olive branch on the condition you provide beer for tasting

/vegan cheese is not cheese...STOP CALLING IT THAT, IT'S NUT PASTE
//lol, just read what I typed, nut paste

*Laughs in a Beavis and Butthead laugh at "nut cheese"

Well, I am pretty open when it comes to beer. I am a fan of just about every line Shiner has to offer. The only beer I WONT bring is Coors, bud, miller or natty light. I have a respect for guiness, but not a fan of the taste.

When it comes to the "cheese" thing most of the time vegan cooks will throw in "Z" or something like that. It's more or less to say, "Look, you are craving cheese without the whole animal thing, so here's the next best thing to conquer that taste". Frankly, I don't make "cheese" with nuts, but with Nutritional yeast...it works better than nut or the fake stuff they sell for $5 a freakin bag!

KiplingKat872: mcwehrle: Serious, not in any way meant to be snarky question:

Vegetarians/Vegans....since you have made your decision to forego meat for your reasons, WHY would you want anything that remotely resembles the taste of meat? Wouldn't that creep you out if you've made the decision to not "eat anything with a face"?

Again, I'm not being snarky.....this has always truely confused me. I know I make comments about meat is tasty murder and all that, and I'm a true carnivore, but I respect those who have made their own choices for their own reasons.

Thanks to anyone who answers.

I've been a vegetarian for twenty years now and I don't remember what meats tastes like. I like a good veggie burger (and I agree they are few and far between) for it's own sake. Sometimes it is just abut the vehicle. I recently found a recipe for a crisp-fried tofu Ruben sandwich. I'm sure it doesn't taste like roast beef, but you still get the rye, swiss, thousand island dressing and sauerkraut.

So for me It's not about getting fake meat.

I can see that too. Thanks!

caddisfly: thomps: why would we rename them "chicken abortions," subby? the eggs we eat (with a few disgusting exceptions) are unfertilized. they are cruel because of the abhorrent living conditions of most egg-producing chickens. maybe instead, we should name them "chicken torture nuggets."

Ovary kittens?

I find it sad that this was the only reference to seakittens...

/Leaving disappointed

The writer of the article slideshow couldn't bother to do a little research and find out that the Whole Foods in Portland, ME carries live lobster? They're kept in a tank, but each lobster has its own little cubby.

the least they can do is make their lives and deaths humane.

that's what Temple Grandin did

Sanctimonious farked-up farking crap. All their wonderful "alternatives" would work just great if there were about 6,000,000,000 fewer humans. "Buy local! Go to a farmer's market! Have a portobello mushroom!"

How about farking yourselves, shiatbrains?

FirstNationalBastard: thomps: why would we rename them "chicken abortions," subby? the eggs we eat (with a few disgusting exceptions) are unfertilized. they are cruel because of the abhorrent living conditions of most egg-producing chickens. maybe instead, we should name them "chicken torture nuggets."

Hey, going by the current level of understanding of female biology that around half the people in this country have, unfertilized eggs are people, and each one is sacred. Therefore, eggs are chicken abortions.

They're actually the issue of a chicken's period.

pute kisses like a man: MycroftHolmes: pute kisses like a man: I remember going to a vegan cook-out once (I'm not vegan). I brought all these peppers, squashes and mushrooms. all stuff that's great on the grill.

everyone else brought some variation of a tofu dog or a vegan burger. (anecdotal) proof that vegans and vegetarians are just people who hate food.

You do get the fact that nothing you brought had any protein, and for people for whom this was their main lifestyle choice, not just one aberrant meal, they had to make sure that they were eating things with protein (like tofu or veggie burgers), right?

so, you're defending the cook-out of tofu dogs and tofu burgers? i guess I can apply the people who hate food moniker to you as well.

/ i've known other vegans who actually cook good food, and try to find pleasure in their dietary restrictions. the tofu dog is not the answer.

Goodness no. I've been known to drive 200 miles to try a BBQ restaurant, or eat dinner at midnight because I misjudged how long it would take to make homemade mozzerella. Just pointing out that your oh so smug conclusion about how vegans are just people who hate food (a conclusion that you later dispute yourself, nice job by the way) could have other explanations, like the fact that vegans need to make a more concerted effort to take in protein.

If you want to label me as a food hater to suit your purposes, go ahead, but that would be simply silly.

Eggs = Liquid Chickens

cupstack: Eggs = Liquid Chickens Red, erm, Yellow Wings, Aunt Flo-zilla, Riding Flutterbiatch, erm, you get the idea

Again, takes fertilisation for an egg to make moar chickens; failing Rooster Intervention or the birth of Chicken Jesus, you get...well, pretty much the tastiest damn menstruation ever, especially with some Cholula added or some cheese folded in. :D

Not that I'm making things at all better, of course :D

/had a rough day, kind of mentally broken at the moment--tasteless humor is how I survive
//would Chicken Jesus be akin to the Second Coming of Raptor Jesus, seeing as chickens and deinonychs ARE related? :D

KiplingKat872: TheHappyDrinker: Thanks, but I'm really not even egging. She's an uninformed vegetarian trying to say how farms run by reading an about page from a website. Reality isn't always pretty, but there are a lot of people who stick their head in the sand to avoid it.

Strawman,

I'm not saying how farms are run. I'm saying you are trying to be dismissive of a four generation farm that obviously is a profitable concern. Not a "Hobby." You can't dismiss small scale farming successes by being condescending and insulting of small scale farmers.

Who's dismissing small farms? Not me. You're confusing this farm with a normal small farm. I'm only condescending to you because you have no idea what you're talking about.

I'd say that a great list of stuff for lunch! Yummy!

"Lobsters also have a central nervous system, according to other research."

So does this:


Having a central nervous system doesn't suddenly endow an organism with self-awareness and a sense of personhood. Lobsters have tiny little brains and are certainly not self-aware. And just because they have stress hormones doesn't mean that they actually get stressed the way that we feel it. It's a bug that is no more sentient than a cockroach, and even so, when I kill them I do it humanely: just stick em in a fridge for a while. It doesn't kill them, but their nervous system will slow down so much that you can pop em in the boiling water and they will be dead long before the numbness subsides.

I also don't have a problem with balut, it's just f*cking gross.
To be sure, though, some of these things are pretty awful; shark finning is especially heinous.

Their suggestions are pretty dumb, though. A portobello mushroom instead of veal? Walnuts instead of foie gras? Are these actually good substitutes in a vegan or vegetarian's mind? You may as well suggest substituting a handful of lettuce for a rasher of bacon, they're about as similar.

ZAZ: It's only a chicken abortion if you find a visible embryo inside.

I knew a guy in bootcamp, back in the early 90's, who asked for some "Fried chicken fetus" every time he went through the breakfast line at the galley. I swear he did that just to see the reaction of the poor schlub behind the counter, usually another recruit like us, but at a different part of training.

Gawdzila: To be sure, though, some of these things are pretty awful; shark finning is especially heinous.

For something that tastes like how burned rubber smells.

To be an abortion the egg must have first been fertilized and most chicken eggs have not been fertilized. It is simply an egg.

As stated before, the eggs are chicken periods. Our women do the same thing, except it's once a month and the egg is too small to see. Now I'm imagining a world where women laid eggs instead of having periods.

/In today's modern world there would be many upsides to this

Nobody is going to rename eggs something they're not, retard. Eggs are eggs. The eggs we eat are unfertilized and hens lay them regardless. How old are you that you don't know that?

thomps: why would we rename them "chicken abortions," subby? the eggs we eat (with a few disgusting exceptions) are unfertilized. they are cruel because of the abhorrent living conditions of most egg-producing chickens. maybe instead, we should name them "chicken torture nuggets."

Buy your eggs locally or verify that the chickens are truly free range...and that male baby chicks aren't thrown in the chicken grinder.

Damili: drjekel_mrhyde: The author sounds like he works for PETA

I am a proud member of PETA

[500motivators.com image 599x479]

And a coont.

ArcadianRefugee: thecpt: "Saw this in a video (advertising Food Inc) a friend sent me, and how 75% of US corn is GMO. If so, where is our zombie apocalypse? Oh, what? Our children haven't gotten horribly sick and/or started feasting on the flesh of their relatives?

Yeah...side effects ALWAYS happen immediately. With your reasoning, maybe we should reconsider having our tax dollars compensate victims of Agent Orange (also made by Monsanto).

Sid_6.7: Not only is veal absolutely delicious, but it also supports the dairy industry,

You're a farking moron.

MycroftHolmes: pute kisses like a man: MycroftHolmes: pute kisses like a man: I remember going to a vegan cook-out once (I'm not vegan). I brought all these peppers, squashes and mushrooms. all stuff that's great on the grill.

everyone else brought some variation of a tofu dog or a vegan burger. (anecdotal) proof that vegans and vegetarians are just people who hate food.

You do get the fact that nothing you brought had any protein, and for people for whom this was their main lifestyle choice, not just one aberrant meal, they had to make sure that they were eating things with protein (like tofu or veggie burgers), right?

so, you're defending the cook-out of tofu dogs and tofu burgers? i guess I can apply the people who hate food moniker to you as well.

/ i've known other vegans who actually cook good food, and try to find pleasure in their dietary restrictions. the tofu dog is not the answer.

Goodness no. I've been known to drive 200 miles to try a BBQ restaurant, or eat dinner at midnight because I misjudged how long it would take to make homemade mozzerella. Just pointing out that your oh so smug conclusion about how vegans are just people who hate food (a conclusion that you later dispute yourself, nice job by the way) could have other explanations, like the fact that vegans need to make a more concerted effort to take in protein.

If you want to label me as a food hater to suit your purposes, go ahead, but that would be simply silly.

obviously we got off on the wrong foot somewhere. I included in my original statement that I wasn't make a comment against vegans in general, it was against those vegans in my story. I never made a categorical statement about all vegans (and if I did, it was a joke, which should have been clear by my statements aside that I was limited the statement to the category of the vegans in that specific anecdote -- if it wasn't clear, than that is where are failure to communicate occurred).

but, protein is easy to find... beans. millions of different kinds of beans. and, they don't have to be processed into strange scientific horrors like tofu dogs. just made with love, and vegan beans can be good. I know, because I don't always have random pork parts to throw in the beans I make, and they still turn out good. 

if i had to meet some kind of nutrition levels while restricting my diet, i would still look for what tastes best under the obstruction. here is my categorical: anyone, whether on a restricted diet or not, who fails to seek decent food within their obstruction, does not like food.

FirstNationalBastard: Mmmmm... chicken abortions and slaughtered piglets...

I prefer to think of them as Chicken Miscarriage, TYVM.

/Yummy though, cooked in bacon/sausage grease, with a little shredded cheddar cheese, and some chipotle' tasbasco sauce.

Gawdzila: Having a central nervous system doesn't suddenly endow an organism with self-awareness and a sense of personhood. Lobsters have tiny little brains and are certainly not self-aware.

I have owned a pet hemit crab, a simple creature but in this case a rather long-lived one. I learned alot of things from that experience. For one, crustaceans have distinct personalities. Also, despite being less evolved than a common insect, it was amazing what he was able to comprehend. He understood that he could decide whether to cause me pain or not, which not only means he understands pain, but that he has something akin to Theory of Mind. And he has these for creatures completely unlike him physiologically (e.g. endoskeleton). In fact they seem more aware of the pain concept than, say, a cockatiel that will just bite you until you practically rip his little head off.

/And, yes, I have had more than one of these creatures and was able to see that these behaviors were not flukes, despite the polar opposite personalities of the two oldest ones.

Zombalupagus: For one, crustaceans have distinct personalities.

This isn't really surprising, even for very simple creatures. Even a simple brain consists of hundreds of thousands to millions of neurons all interconnected with each other. It's a chaotic system and thus, like a snowflake, although they're all similar it is never going to be put together in precisely the same way for two different creatures. That means each creature will exhibit differing combinations of instinctual behaviors in differing amounts. Curiosity or caution, energetic or sedentary, aggression vs. defensiveness, etc. Differing behavior patterns (what people often think of as "personalities") are not an indication of complex thought processes; almost any animal more complex than a worm can exhibit it.


Zombalupagus: He understood that he could decide whether to cause me pain or not, which not only means he understands pain, but that he has something akin to Theory of Mind.

No he didn't, you're attributing that understanding to him. It's a huge leap to say that he understands the idea of pain just because he doesn't always pinch you hard. And even if he did, it's a huge leap even from there to attribute a complex understanding like a Theory of Mind to a hermit crab. In reality it is much more likely that he simply has an instinctual offensive/defensive reaction to situations that his tiny little nervous system interprets as dangerous, and that he just acclimated to you, accepted you as generally benign, and thus interacted with you non-aggressively most of the time.

Anthropomorphizing a crab simply doesn't make any sense. Even a fly exhibits complex behaviors, but it doesn't mean that they have any degree of personhood. Brains are incredible organic machines that can produce a wide variety of behaviors, even in simple nervous systems. But being sapient isn't just about behavior. It is a much, much more difficult trick that a crab simply doesn't have the neural equipment for.

Gawdzila: This isn't really surprising, even for very simple creatures. Even a simple brain consists of hundreds of thousands to millions of neurons all interconnected with each other. It's a chaotic system and thus, like a snowflake, although they're all similar it is never going to be put together in precisely the same way for two different creatures. That means each creature will exhibit differing combinations of instinctual behaviors in differing amounts. Curiosity or caution, energetic or sedentary, aggression vs. defensiveness, etc. Differing behavior patterns (what people often think of as "personalities") are not an indication of complex thought processes; almost any animal more complex than a worm can exhibit it.

Even single-celled organisms exhibit it. It's not personality, it's evolutionary adaptation. Some members of any species will be born with behaviors that seem outright suicidal. Evolution doesn't judge anything but fitness to reproduce, and the more random behaviors individuals within a population can exhibit, the more likely the species will survive any sudden environmental shifts, including those intentionally designed by humans to exterminate the entire species.

Gawdzila: No he didn't, you're attributing that understanding to him. It's a huge leap to say that he understands the idea of pain just because he doesn't always pinch you hard. And even if he did, it's a huge leap even from there to attribute a complex understanding like a Theory of Mind to a hermit crab. In reality it is much more likely that he simply has an instinctual offensive/defensive reaction to situations that his tiny little nervous system interprets as dangerous, and that he just acclimated to you, accepted you as generally benign, and thus interacted with you non-aggressively most of the time.

He would use his claws when climbing inanimate objects, but would volountarily not use them when on me. It took being around him for a year and observing him to understand just how important holding on and not falling was to him; it was a HUGE instinct for him to overcome. In fact, a hermit crab will let itself be ripped in half before letting go of their climbing hold. But he would override this instinct, and that implies the ability to empathize and make decisions. And of every crab I have ever owned in all my years, his "safety first" instinct while climbing was otherwise the strongest.

I had a second crab who wasn't much more than a spare shell with an angry claw sticking out of it. I tried to "make friends" with him by holding him with my skin stretched taut, but no luck. He got me and got me good. These were big crabs, and it was the equivalent of someone getting you with a pair of pliers. But once I "got the message" and set him down he let go. Which is more than I can say for a cockatiel. Both crabs were aware of their actions and the reactions they would cause.

What amazes me more is that I had always assumed my first one was tame because he was just raised that way. But years later I found out that, due to the way these things are "harvested", they were both surely wild caught. People don't grow grapefruit sized crabs for 10 years or whatever and then sell them, they just go out on some island and catch them to sell on the global pet market. Both gained their personalities in the wild and had to deal with this strange new world in their own way.

Also, consider this: even a creature as simple a lizard will establish eye contact to try to discern your motives.

As long as we're sharing CSBs about hermit crabs, a co-worker of mine had one named Sheckie that could be pulled out of its shell. He would just grab Sheckie's claw and pull, and out he came. When he first demonstrated it, I suggested he take Sheckie to the vet, because even a sick crab shouldn't do that, but he told me it was okay and he could do it because Sheckie trusted him. Sheckie actually survived a whole year, with the owner pulling him out of one decorated shell and putting him in another almost every day, and you'd think the stress of that alone would have killed the poor thing, but whatever.

It wasn't until the owner decided Sheckie was lonely and needed a girl crab to keep him company that things went wrong. Poor Sheckie didn't even make it to lunch break. The owner went back to see how they were getting along and promptly freaked out when he saw the new crab had pulled Sheckie out of his shell and eaten him, nothing left but his claw and head, and damned if she wasn't trying to eat that too.

/I suggested they name the new crab Salome, but everyone thought I was just being mean
//apparently what we do with crabs that behave normally around here is crush them flat, shell and all, and flush their remains down the toilet